The Stranger

a full-blooded....

And Mrs. Nida Maqsud, my reply actually became an full-blooded I-log!

NB, Fouz (Fauzan/Fauzia), Rhyming Reason,

I'll answer your posts later, but first I need to brush my teeth.

wow, so many comments. i'm honored (thank you, bjkumar) and dumbfounded (tahir, parthaab) all at the same time. i'm also having a hard time keeping track of who's quarreling with who, and to whom my responses should be addressed.

i'd be happy to send a link of my story and all the ensuing comments to my father, brothers, and husband. My father, i'm guessing, would be proud of me for trying to portray a woman's unhappiness so honestly and without fear of (male) censorship. by the way, i would like to state at this point, my dear tahir, that i am not the one who's had your comments red-flagged. i would never do that. i do not believe in censorship; so perhaps, on that account, we are on the same page.

moving along, my brothers might cringe at the story, their level of modesty and humility being far greater than mine. but despite their response, they know i am a self-assured (Muslim, if you must know, not that it should matter) grown woman, who doesn't need their approval/disapproval to make decisions, although i certainly respect them dearly.

and my husband has already read the story and most of these comments, and has asked me in his gallant way if i want him to give anyone a sound verbal thrashing, but i politely declined. i don't need anyone to fight my battles. and, the way i see it, it's not really a battle but a difference of opinion.

my only question is why tahir and parthaab feel so threatened by women such as myself and fouz and nb (and i'm sorry i can't remember everyone's names/positions). if you don't like the look of us or our work, then feel free to disengage with us, or as the Quran states, "lower your gaze".

if for only one moment, you would forget about your hang-ups, read the story, and try to imagine what it must be like for a woman (or man, for that matter) to endure a mental illness like depression in a country like pakistan, i would be ever so grateful. the story is not about women's rights or men's rights, but about people suffering. and by sharing my work of fiction, i was hoping to raise the reader's level of empathy, so they would be able to put themselves in another's shoes. it seems to me, in general, that kind of humanity, or willingness to engage in such empathetic gestures, is lacking thesedays, and has led to the creation of the bush's and bin laden's of today.

Beautiful piece. I loved it. Keep writing.

Some of the problems faced by the main character are clearly common hallmarks of most patriarchal societies. The long-term solution is the economic empowerment of women and ensuring that they have an equal or comparable role in earning and (as would follow) in all decision-making. A bit of companionship with other women to share thoughts and feelings (which are generally more important to women than to men) and to empathize with and (as the last resort) some counseling would not hurt, either.

Tahir Sahab, I continually strive to see (sometimes I am not so successful)people just as people and not what my own myopia about THEIR religion tells me. Besides, bitching ad-nauseum about gender differences should mellow down with age: its appropriate though for the teen years, something that you and I have both left far behind :)So the Kausar begum reference was about going WOW! What a woman! In the context to which this comment was made, you may see a hint of poorly disguised irony as well, what with a MUSLIM and a WOMAN blah blah blah. I am sure if it was Frau Julianna or Mdm Pompadour, I would have made the same remark; and it would have gone un-noticed.

In short, Tahir, you're clueless. You could have just said that.
I thought there were satisfaction surveys available. Never mind.

Re: # 64
"Nida, I see Tahir is spamming your board. Maybe I should have ignored him."

Yes Miss Maqsud, please do something other than red-flagging me repeatedly.

This is where MEN of the family come in handy to beat up on intruders.

Re: # 63
Sister NB,

"it gives you jollies arguing with me."

Why must I derive any questionable pleasure from something that's my duty?

"As for circumcision, you are welcome to your opinion."

Thanks heaven for letting me remain as I am. I thought you'd recommend a good surgeon for reconstructive surgery!

"How do you how satisfied women are, how many have you asked?"

Those are very dangerous grounds you're treading on NB. Don't even think of firing your gun while resting the barrel over my oily shoulders. Chowqies (you being an exception, of course) have absolutely no interest in my personal life.

"What do love and sex have to do with this? And don't give me advice, you don't have to take my theka."

A fantastic software allows me to determine whose 'theka' I must take or reject. Sorry, it's not available in the market.

"BTW, I await your quoting the verses of the Koran that make you Nida's censor."

Let Miss Maqsud ask or answer unless she's sulking after being reprimanded by daddy dear. And if she asks politely, I'll quote the relevant verse of the Book she has no clue about.

Fondest regards.

Nida, I see Tahir is spamming your board. Maybe I should have ignored him.

#61, Tahir, either you can't or won't read. See Parthaab's mention of circumcision in his post. He lit the fire, I merely pointed out it was inappropriate here. But of course you won't argue with him, it gives you jollies arguing with me. As for circumcision, you are welcome to your opinion.
How do you how satisfied women are, how many have you asked?

What do love and sex have to do with this? And don't give me advice, you don't have to take my theka. BTW, I await your quoting the verses of the Koran that make you Nida's censor.

Re: # 49
"should male chowkies get their interacts and ilogs approved by their mothers, wives and sisters?"

Although that is not divinely sanctioned but males ought to practise self-censorship. My own work is readily accessible to friends and family, and that's why I never abuse or use vulgar language (although some here do that to me while falsely believing it to be manliness).

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Re: # 42
"a raging islamist..."

I have my thinking buffalo standards. Every red rag is not worth chasing after.

Re: # 57
"Mad is sex-starved? Erm....okay, Sigmund! But why do you have it on the brain?"

Only real men know the veiled definitions. So I'm Sigmund FRAUD now? What quick topic changes! I dislike him intensely for linking everything with sex and childhood. Look, you're making the Chowq ladies laugh unnecessarily!

The starved Taliban never have anything except death and destruction on their minds (Sade: "Pain is pleasure"), true momins don't salivate thinking about Jannah, but half-Muslims prefer reading and appreciating junk to get all worked up for nothing.

There's life beyond preaching.

Enough NB?

#37 Did you read Parthaab's post before dashing that off in a hurry?
#51 Tell me of the reference.
#55 Mad is sex-starved? Erm....okay, Sigmund! But why do you have it on the brain?

Re: # 39
"got a bleeding hindu and a regressive islamist together on the same platform."

Although I don't accept congratulations from chimps, in your case I will.

:)

Re: # 38
"I believe you are either mad..."

There's another title for this: sex-starved.

Re: # 37
"do you realise the inappropriateness in talking to Muslim men about the misandrous nature of circumcision? I am sure Tahir believes God ordained it."

So it has come down to THIS, my circumcision and the views on its appropriateness?

Are you reading this 'thinking buffalos' and female members of TFC (Tahir Fan Club)?

Speak up (or better, DON'T)!

Re: # 36

Try writing an article Parthaab; you have anger in you.

Re: # 35
Parthaab,

What happens at Chowq is no mystery (no, I don't mean the wild parties in San Jose) to me now.

Banning, deleting, filtering and killing artciles is all part of this giant social enginereeing plan. That's why these liberated females have no answers to the questions I post when they make vague allegations and launch untruths. They just hide their faces in the hijab (make that a dupatta on just one shoulder) and run off to write their next masterPIECE.

We all HAVE to go to see Dr. Safwan Shah one fine morning in San Jose to sort out the differences.

Now watch them ban me for THIS (while my history article awaits publication here)!

Re: # 34
"Tahir, where does it say in the Quran that you must take theka of what all Muslim women are doing? Tahir, where does it say in the Quran that you must take theka of what all Muslim women are doing?

I hate to disappoint you NB (kemun achin) but it does say THAT very clearly if you read the Qur'an. Problems arise only when western style emnacipation and freedom is demanded while sacrificing everything precious and eastern.

Down with this fake liberty.

Re: # 31
"Good one, Kausar begum..."

Khan sahib, what a comment, what a country?

#47 Tahir, should male chowkies get their interacts and ilogs approved by their mothers, wives and sisters?

#44 Oops, that should be no longer done automatically at birth!

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Re: # 23
"It is a sensuous story that seems to capture in all the necessary intricate details one would need to 'feel' what the protagonist went through."

People with dull imaginations always need someone else to spell out and draw it all for them.

Muslim women need not get into this trashy mode of writing and appreciating these so-called modern short-stories. And if they must, it must be done in private with one's eyes closed.

#44 Just wanted to add, the reason I don't want to discuss it is not that I'm being arrogant but that I don't think things will change, children are basically the property of their parents in most non-Western societies, parents will do with them as they please, and circumcision isn't the worst thing that such parents do. This is not something I feel particularly strongly about either, so you are better off discussing it with someone who does, like Parthaab.

#43 Thanks for confirming my point exactly here. It is inappropriate of Parthaab to raise this topic here.
However, I must point out that the umbilical cord will shrivel up even if you let it stay attached to the infant, and by the way has nothing to do with the gastrointestinal system. Not so the prepuce, you can't compare the two. This is not a new opinion, circumcision is no longer done at birth in most Western countries for this reason among many others.
Have you really never heard of this concept? There's been a raging controversy about circumcision for many years. I suggest you read up on it, and please address further posts to Parthaab, as I don't expect customs that are thousands of years old to disappear any day soon, and am not interested in discussing it.

Re: # 40
Of course he won't. Nor would any other Muslim man. Or Jew. And circumcision as genital mutilation? Err...come again! How about letting the umbilical cord remain attached to the baby? Since that amounts to ..hmm..(some medical guy help me)stomach, gastro mutilation? No?

nb, that is even more to the credit of Nida - i mean imagine

a commie, an atheist, a hindu, a raging islamist all on one platform.

That is a magic mix

#39 Iron mask, Parthaab is a communist.....not quite a bleeding Hindu!

#38 Why brainwashed, can't I believe it? What's the brazen manner you're objecting to? I'll tell you now that circumcision of babies in my opinion amounts to genital mutilation, but Tahir won't like it one bit.

my god, Parthaab babooo and Tahir babooon together on the same platform in total agreement........


This is a scary scenario....this is really amazing. The the begining of MRU(misogynists R us)

Well done Nida, you have done something which would have been impossible on Chowk - got a bleeding hindu and a regressive islamist together on the same platform.

You have succeeded beyond your wildest imagination

Re: # 37
nb,

I believe you are either mad, or just a very dangerously brainwashed feminist to comment about serious male rights issues in such a brazen manner. And I tend to believe the latter is the case.

#36 Parthaab, do you realise the inappropriateness in talking to Muslim men about the misandrous nature of circumcision? I am sure Tahir believes God ordained it.

While political parties are falling over each other, trying to get the attention of WOMEN, for their votes, MEN have been left literally speechless - without even a voice for themselves!

Media advertisements, from domestic cleaning agents, to car insurance, to pet food, ALL routinely portray gender roles where women are the smart, cool, sophisticated and innocent gender, and men are the complacent, retarded, pathetic gender. Thus, misandry is being softly 'legalised' by the media - as being perfectly normal and natural.

The areas of misandry include, for eg., :

1. Ragging
2. Circumcision
3. Conscription
4. Unequal taxation
5. Unequal benefits in old age
6. Misandrous laws in divorce, such as dowry laws
7. Unmonitored recruitment practices
8. Alimony in divorces
9. Child custody in divorces
10. Encouragement to male children to improve performance in exams, etc. etc.

Ironically, it is the ruling Congress that has given most money for feminist causes, and created draconian misandrous laws. Under its rule, the ONLY graph to sky rocket, has been divorce! Many elderly men and innocent women have suffered to conseqences of women biased laws passed by the Congress. No wonder, these elderly men and women will votes with fires burning in the pits of their stomachs.

But will their feelings be assuaged, unless men themselves realise the tremendous evil, including the misandrous media, behind the forces against their gender?

WAKE UP MALES! SPEAK UP!

Re: # 33

tahir,

I would like to inform you, since you seem to be interested in the definition of misandry, that chowk has now deleted may of my comments.

This leads me to believe that there is truth in the allegations that chowk.com employs censorship unfairly, and with a view purely to silence free expression of views.

I am therefore considering Truly free blogs, that are also popular.

Tahir, where does it say in the Quran that you must take theka of what all Muslim women are doing?

Are you Muslim woman Nida?

An article that displays no shame in the concluding lines.

Why must you write like THIS, where's the subtle style?

Only fallen men fall for fallen women (happy Parthaab?).

Thank you, shandana and zhohaq! Your comments are invaluable. I do hope to improve.

Re: # 30

Good one, Kausar begum :P At least some Muslim women are emancipated enough. :D

While the media keeps harping on the 'atrocities heaped upon the weaker gender', here are actual events on the ground, that no one ever hears about :

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Cities/Woman-held-for-cheating-10-husban ds/articleshow/4363634.cms

Re: # 25

It is nothing to do with this article in particular.

The WHOLE of the media is biased against males. Male bashing is APPROVED off by society. Even now, as I write, I see this advert on TV, where the old man is forgetful about his younger days, while his intelligent wife keeps correcting him proudly. Sexism is obvious. And there is no chargesheet! Misandrous adverts of this sort are soo common, that people simply do not even notice - imagine their self esteem is they did notice the silent misandry! Adverts routinely show the male as stupid while the women is intelligent and smart. This article is just a TINY bit of the male bashing engaged in by the whole of the media.

WAKE UP MALES! SPEAK UP!

#15 Parthaab
Many of your points are true, but they are some pitfalls one must avoid & caveats one must acknowledge.

1. Every one must acknowledge that terrible things do happen to women in our country(KaroKari,marriage ,Stove burnings, rape etc) The fact that because of misplaced notions of decency or honor,society, men or religious authorities stay quite about it gives these feminazis a chance to hijack tragedies for their misplaced causes in which invariably the drag their country and their religion in the mire (eg Mukhtara mai case, (No one remembers a local imam first brought it to attention of the loacl sindhi press)

2. Do not fall into the apologist trap by making ludicrous statements like women and mean are are exactly equal i.e with exactly same abilities. That simply isn't biologically true.This notion has led to tragedies like inducting women into active fighting military units and the air force.War is a ugly dirty thing a women is unfit for active field duty only because if ever captured(Or even while serving with her comrades) she will have to undergo a most terrible mental and physical torture due to her innate sexual vulnerability

3. Unlearn free market modern truisms. A women who is a housewife with five children is supposed to be "unemployed". All her labor through out her life is unacknowledged by the economy and state and sometimes family & society. Its because of these misunderstanding of roles that a women taking care of a family is made to feel inferior to a women pursuing a career.Or makes women try to juggle duel roles of a family and a career with the associated guilt of doing two half jobs .Society should recognize a homemaker labor and the state should acknowledge this as employment and provide any associated benefits.

4. If you have to apply (or criticize) Islamic law regarding women ,please do it in its entirety not peace meal. Most Islamic laws dealing with issues pertaining to women aren't applied in our society(eg. Haq e meher, the right of divorce, her share in inheritance, laws regarding zina bil jabbar and against defamation, contraception, actual requirements of the veil). Applying selectively few laws is making a mockery of your religion and giving feminazis a chance to call your beliefs medieval, or worse try their hand at "reinterpreting" your religion.

5. The west will always try to make your system of belief look inadequate or wrong by highlighting tragedies that can happen anywhere.The idea is to piss you off. Any person willing to sell himself is richly rewarded that is why the illegal immigrant Ayaan Hirsi Ali is A dutch MP & and the mediocre novelist Salman rushdie is Sir Salman Rushdie.Do not get emotional on such issues and recognize them as opportunist and sell outs. Also note that your local feminazis being sellout will never recognize tragedies which happen to women in the west( Destruction of the institution marriage, the impossible life of a single mother, domestic violence especially against pregnant women(see American statistical figures they are shocking),Incest,Rape and violence openly advocated,objectification of the women body, aberrations like the porn industry).

6. Finally never be afraid of being called names. They may call you a chauvinist,misogynist,obscurantist or even a pervert (lol). The only reason ever for name calling is to shut a person up who is making a valid point.

Reply #25 Nida

No Nida there is no reason you should. Yes I did join today and so far so good. On rereading my previous comment its a bit harsh sounding, this wasn't intended,your writing style and the character development is of the kind which I personally like, that why I wanted the story to go for the jugular(The Crux of the story is of women being robbed of her identity and autonomy if I am not wrong).You take criticism positively which means you are destined get better & better.

hey nida,

i thoroughly enjoyed reading this. you have a sense of rhythm, an eye for details (autopilot mommy for e.g. hell yeah :) and the ability to inhabit your characters as you write them. i also liked the love making at the end- though i was unsure if she stood up on the bed to undress (a little dangerous if you have a low fan no?) or stood by the bed- a lot of pakistani women writers skip those bits entirely .

looking forward to reading more by you.

sm

thank you, leenah and zhohaq! i appreciate your feedback.

zhohaq, i noticed you just became a member of chowk today. do i know you?

parthaab, your theory about the media spinning feminism to suit the feminists might have some substance. after all, we all know the media can spin circles around us any day, whether it's making us believe that the war on terror is really a war on terror and not a US policy to impose control over poorer countries, or that all these long marches in Pakistan are just creating havoc rather than influencing change. BUT that doesn't mean that women's right to equal treatment isn't violated every day, and that certain women (like the protagonist in this story) are brought up to feel like real validation is only that which comes from a man (be it her father, husband, or son). the latter is actually much more common than you think.

Re: # 10
nb...
In ancient age, women used to be treated more than equal to men....the proportion of greek godesses and Indian goddesses prove this....the situation worsened during medieval period...

I like it Nida! It is a sensuous story that seems to capture in all the necessary intricate details one would need to 'feel' what the protagonist went through.
Very nice.

nb, education complicates the biological imperative, in my opinion.

An easy and interesting read.
the protagonist is a prototypical angst ridden women, the one Ibsen made a living writing about. The aspect of depression(The man in Grey) is also prototypical e.g the bell jar etc. This makes the short story a bit formalistic and the fact nothing really happens leaves the reader underwhelmed. The themes of the protagonist being caged by societal norms and the insttuition of marraige and her descent into self destruction should have been further pursued.
But the writing is top notch soo a great effort.

Re: # 15

Not altogether incorrect, Bhai. And everyone of us has got examples to share and wail about. But we should have an entirely new discussion on this one, no?. I dont suppose the Article, as the author has also pointed out, was really about that.

Don't go away..what was Quixote ever without his Sancho Panza? Who are the donkeys is what is currently on my mind.

hmmm .... there definitely is some 'chemistry' at work here ... make myself scarce

Parthaaaaab! I was just wondering how long you'd be. How have you been? Are you campaigning for the DMK?

Parthaab bhai!! welcome back sir

the Pakis feminists are brandishing around a video of some 17 year old female being flogged .... gosh ... honestly!

what these feminists won't do for their evil propaganda eh!

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#11 What's not with education?

Re: # 5

thank you for your comments, dawa-i-dil. however, i just wanted to clarify. the story is about a woman so depressed, she decides to cut her own legs. i didn't feel like i could avoid talking about her physical world. although sensationalism and vulgarity were by no means my intent. some stories, i feel, require a more elaborate description of, not only the emotional, but also the physical worlds of the characters. otherwise, you, as a reader, can't quite relate.

on another note, although the story was not about men controlling women, it's interesting to see that's what some people picked up on. love the debate!

testing

Re: # 10

not with education...did biology account for that? ;)

#6 Because for centuries, they have controlled almost every aspect of our lives (the weather controlled the other aspects). Being good at pleasing men is probably an evolutionary advantage, since men had no reason to keep you alive if you didn't please them, so why would they pay to feed and clothe you?
This has only not been the case for less than fifty years in most parts of the world, and is still the case in some. It can't just go away.

Re: # 8

:) you wouldnt have been anti-woman, I suppose, if you had answered in the negative. Just...er...more sensitive to such things from women writers! But nice to know that you have a balanced approach to this. :)

Yes, why you consider me anti-woman :)

Re: # 5

It wasn't altogether in bad taste, was it? Though agree with you that sensationalism itself must not be the end. And give Manto a break yaar! The article by any stretch of imagination is nowhere near Manto's fav themes. By the way, would you have posted the same remarks if the piece was written by some Ahmed Maqsood?

Why are women socialized to "please men"?

Dear rhyming reason

I like the story but kindly avoid sensatioanl cheap words and a lil bit mirch masala of nudity cum vulgarity as its fashion these days uch things can be said and point can be brought to attention in reasonable , dignified and honourable way

Everyone cannot reach Manto level by copying him in same lines

Regards

nb and Fouz: thank you. your comments are very encouraging.

HPsauce: although your comments have nothing to do with my story, i completely agree!

Pakis treated like cattle in cattle market ready for slaughter
by their sarkar.

this sarkar in pakiland needs to be over thrown. the rulers sent to afghanistan and given Najibullah treatment

Very well executed. And the main point I believe were the insecurities coming from middle age and/or gradual loss of the glamour of a love-marriage.

This was really well-written, you brought out the vulnerabilities of your main protagonist and the little things that add up to misery beautifully.