Islam vs. Islam

Indeed a very good analysis.
The only way left for the right minded people now is to shun silence and indifference and pay these b******s in the same coins. I do not think any other measure will restrain these illiterate beasts. They chop off heads, people do the same to them.
When people start eliminating and bombing off madressas and breeding grounds for Islamic terror, these people will immediately realize that now the real business has started. If the lawmakers, politicians, army and the administration cannot do it, it has to be done by the people.

Thats brilliant and again spot on!!!!
Though I dont think that soul searching has begun in Muslims. We are just digging up new conspiracy theories for psuedo justification of our state of denial.

This is not an apology for what Muslim-people do.
My name sake has committed the same mistake which he attributes to the Swati minister. The author accuses the minister, and quite rightly so, for not giving any proof for his statements.
Yet the writer himself makes statements about ‘Islam’ without giving any reference from the source book, the Quran. As an example the following quote:
“Yes. Flogging a girl in public is Islam and those flogging the girl believed that they were the most pious and the holiest of the holy Muslims�.

Flogging of adulterer and adulteress is indeed allowed. But in the context of the Book this is a State function, that is. The courts/ justice system are responsible to punish the culprits, BOTH MAN AND WOMAN and according to the given procedures, that is, with credible witnesses etc. Incredible witnesses are to be punished accordingly.(eg 24: 2 on wards)

Hence it is NOT a Church’s function or that of the ‘piety brigade’ to carry them out—-akin to say Sati, preventing a widow from remarrying, burning daughters-in-laws for not bringing in more wealth or ‘stoning’ as in other religions and primitive societies, even though it may not be practiced today, (as it is claimed in some quarters)!

The important issue here is to point out that what some ‘Muslim people do’ under the canopy of their church, their Religion, culture or societal norms is NOT Quranic.
Taliban (or Tele-ban) are people too, though illiterate and brain washed by their clergy.

In order to justify them the illiterate clergy attribute them to Islam, a Code and not a RELIGION as it is claimed.

The code is only given in Quran and NOT in the apocrypha—peripheral documents of doubtful authenticity 45-6). (of all religions)
It is not “defending� this graring anomaly in any shape or form when high lighting this point to the enlightened readership.
Rashid

Re: # 29
Well, Sanatani, for one thing the war record and the human rights organizations working in the ME can provide some details. Newspapers clippings, video footage, internet archives, documentaries. Probably a visit to the occupied territories may help you realize just how many families have lost their members to Israeli brutalisation. Common sense and some open eyes. Remember this is going on for the last 60 years..and still counting.

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Rashid, a very good article and certainly what we all need nowadays. However, I feel you have fallen into the same trap of wanting a revolutionary change right away in not only our attitudes but the entire structure itself. Like wanting Pakistan State to take out the word Islamic from its masthead? Isn't that a bit too much? Something like asking all the countries of the world to erase their cultural nomenclatures and identifiers in order to embrace universal brotherhood and humanity. And while we are at it, why not insist upon Israel to wipe off the Star of David from its flag? Afterall they are about a religious ideology as well and, Lord knows, have killed more people than the Taliban. While no one is advocating that the Taliban be allowed to go scot free, no one in their right mind would want to jump starightaway onto a Turkish model. Accepting tolerant diversity and being sensitive to others even, and especially, when thay have a different view point can alone bring about the mild change that you so very fittingly emphasised.

Rashid malik:
"..The first time in history, a real soul-searching has begun among Muslims around the world....". I hope this is true and is badly needed.
Congrats. for your bold writing.
kamath

Re: # 21
catchy....
yeh, that everybody else ( non muslas) is experiencing.....btw, is Islam saving your a** from hellfire missiles or it is more islam, the more missiles?......
here is the beakon of light of islamic nations ( Pakistan) is doing....asking 10bn US$ to contain islamic menace....
you may be right in one account....islam is definitely saving Pakistani economics....

#20 Posted by Cachy on April 8, 2009 9:46:00 am

"swat flogging falls under Ignorance of islamic rules."

Is there any punishment prescribed for the above vulgarity? If yes, is that to be meted out only after or on the day of qayamat? If yes, could not have the punishment meted out to the hapless girl waited for the same day?

Also, as per your infallible user manual, who has given the authority to ignorant momeen to deal with the case in the way as he understood islaam? Why is he not being declared an infidel for his failure to understand the 'right islaam?

I would not wish it to happen. But only the time when you will understand that it is wrong is if you have a daughter and she faces the same situation and cries for help and you stand like one of those ball-less elders in swat.

What a shame! Either your religion is wrong or the practitioners of that relegion are wrong and yet they go scot free when the likes of cachy are busy defending their religions without saying a word about the delinquents.

Re: # 21

Catchy .. you have opened my eyes .... I always knew that Quran is the right way ....
Now I know why JAPAN is chaotic (put favourite non-katwa society here)
and Afghanistan/pakistan/ (put favorite katwa society here).
are not chaotic.

#21- It doesn't look like it, but please yourself.

Re: # 21

I'd like to believe that as we evolve, learn and discover more about ourselves and the world around us, we use the wisdom of the people who came before us and try to adapt their findings to our times. To claim that our search for spirituality should have ended some 1300 years ago because the entire truth was somehow revealed once at that time is galactically stupid.

Re: # 18

islam is a product without any expiry date. this is the final manual for mankind and any deviation from it will bring chaos and all chaos can be resolved by following it.

Quran is a savior of mankind until end. All other methods to operate this product will fail.

Re: # 9

nb - flogging is a islamic punishment for adultery by unmarried male and female. there are certian conditions for awarding this punishment and a set way for executing this punishment. If not followed accordingly, then it could be called non-islamic punishment.

swat flogging falls under Ignorance of islamic rules.

Re: # 11

harish - the Manual is quite simple and "complexity" is not a valid excuse for being ignorant.

#7, your opinion and feelings are shared by many but there does not seem to be an urgency or resolve to fight it. Pakistan military killed hundreds of intellectuals in Dacca, in cold-blood, just before surrendering to the Indians and mounted a nine month campaign against the Bengalis killing, raping and robbing, but when it comes to Taliban, they claim sensitivity for collateral damages.
#8 Sanatani is right about the Sikh religion, but the point is to get off the high horse of self righteousness and reasonably accept individual responsibility. The creed of reason could take us farther than all religions and individual responsibility could ensure a peaceful living.
#5, the manual applied to the models in 700AD, Arabia, and it did not take long for the manual to come up short for the
later models. The rationalists were branded Moatizala and casted out of the fold of Islam.

#15 the product and the users, is what I meant!

#5 Posted by Cachy on April 7, 2009 6:18:19 pm


If the users don't follow the instructions due to ignorance, it is not MANUFACTURER's fault.


The products came out exactly as designed...the manufacturer, after all, was manufacturing suicide bombs....

#10-#15 Harish, don't also forget that the manufacturer of the product ( the religion) is allegedly the same as the manufacturer of the users, so shouldn't he have made sure the product and the religion were compatible?

#5 by Cachy

If the users don't follow the instructions due to ignorance, it is not MANUFACTURER's fault.

Catchy yaar, is it not the manufacturer's fault that he could not produce a manual simple enough to be understood by the most ignorant of users?

#5 by Cachy

If the users don't follow the instructions due to ignorance, it is not MANUFACTURER's fault.

Catchy yaar, is it not the manufacturer's fault that he could not produce a manual simple enough to be understood by the most ignorant of users?

#5 by Cachy

If the users don't follow the instructions due to ignorance, it is not MANUFACTURER's fault.

Catchy yaar, is it not the manufacturer's fault that he could not produce a manual simple enough to be understood by the most ignorant of users?

#5 by Cachy

If the users don't follow the instructions due to ignorance, it is not MANUFACTURER's fault.

Catchy yaar, is it not the manufacturer's fault that he could not produce a manual simple enough to be understood by the most ignorant of users?

#5 by Cachy

If the users don't follow the instructions due to ignorance, it is not MANUFACTURER's fault.

Catchy yaar, is it not the manufacturer's fault that he could not produce a manual simple enough to be understood by the most ignorant of users?

#5 Catchy, what are your views on flogging?

Re: # 1

Islam is a cult of hatred. Till we accept that nothing is going to happen i.e. the onward march of Islam will not be stopped. There is no concept of millitant Islam or fundamentalist Islam ther is just islam and that is that.

You frequently or is it Jayp talk about TNT Islam or other such shit. You are being nothing but useful idiots of Islam. The epicentre of Islamic terrorism is Delhi circa of the 1750. All this starts from Shah Waliullah to Jahandar to Sayyid Ahmed to the Ghazis of the mutiny to Deoband school.

The answer to this is Sikhi and Khalsai. Every Hindu should strive to become a Banda Bahadur an Akali Phoola Singh a Maharaja Ranjit Singh and a Senapati Hari Singh Nalwa. The Khalsa Shri succeeded where the Marathas failed why?

They matched religous fanaticism for religous fanaticism to the power infinity.

And they succeeded as they followed a true creed as opposed to a narcistic self aggarandising murderous one.

O Hindus the path to you is clear ignore it at your own peril.

Sanatani

Today I congratulate everyone because Gen Zia’a dream has been fulfilled as a teenaged girl was flogged in Swat. Also let me congratulate, Imran Khan, the Jama’at-e-Islami leadership, Lt-Gen Hameed Gul, the ANP government in the NWFP, the majority of Urdu-language columnists, some English ones too as they support making deals with Taliban. Video of a young girl being flogged as ‘punishment’ by the Taliban in Swat has shocked everyone in the civilized World. It is shameful that religious parties appeared reluctant to openly condemn the case of lashing of a 17-year-old girl in Swat while not giving any clear statement regarding the unfortunate incident. What a shameful act these so-called Taliban did. I am also proud of those men who were watching this innocent helpless victim of atrocity, watching the spectacle mutely either in approval or dumbfounded and afraid of uttering a word against it lest it be termed as anti-Islam and they themselves were meted out the same treatment. Hearing that poor girl's cries grown up men stood and watched her being beaten just makes me sick to the stomach. What a message we are sending to the civilized World.Jamaat-e-Islami says this is a "minor matter" and people should focus on drone attacks by the US (thus demonstrating their hypocrisy and savagery). This was one of the barbaric acts of Taliban, so far we knew that they hang dead bodies to tress but now we have learned that in the past women were punished like this inside rooms. The videotape shown on television and displayed on websites wasn't the only time that a woman was publicly canned by the Taliban. However, no videotape of the other incident, which took place on Oct 20, 2008, is available in which a woman and her father-in-law were flogged in Ser-Taligram village near Manglawar in Charbagh tehsil. It is also sad to read some people's comments who are living in denial. Those who have a serious doubt as immediately after the whipping the "victim" got up and walked away without a limp." Any sane person would laugh at this nonsense if the situation weren’t so dire. If the video was fake, then why did the Taliban accept responsibility and claim they had done the right thing? Everything is a conspiracy to those who are in state of denial. They have lost ability to think, reason and to be logical. Speaking from psychological point of view that innocent girl must be so embarrassed that she did not want to be there, that’s why she got up fast. Those who are living in denial expect from this girl to say thanks to those Taliban and had offered them flowers, that’s what anyone who is denying this incident expects from that girl. That poor girl must have been in agony and I wonder what happened to her once they took her away. Those who are living in denial, those who think this incident was fake, remember Taliban would publicly whip your sisters, mothers, daughters and wives and when you will get out of your state of denial, it will be too late. It is also unfortunate that ANP leadership has abandoned its own people to the Taliban by making deals with them. No one can give justification for such an act. These handful of people have taken the population hostage, and the government is trying to patronize them. If the state surrenders, what will happen next? Those who are thinking that this video is fake should read writing on the wall. It was indeed like a lash on the faces of the chief minister of NWFP, the prime minister, the president, the legislators and most importantly, on the faces of every civilized Pakistani and Pukhtun . Its also true that the monster of terrorism is indeed on the prowl, unhindered and unchecked, targeting at will whatever and whoever it wants. It is obvious that the state has been unable and unwilling to address the threat posed by Al Qaeda and the Taliban. For the most part, the religious lot of the country has quietly and not so quietly supported the terrorists. The people of Pukhtunkhwa have been held hostage by Taliban, Pukhtuns' land is burning. What Taliban are doing is plain barbarism. When a religion is taken over by militants and zealots this is what you get.

The title should have been Ignorance vs Ignorance in the name of Islam. But this is a part of Renaissance evolutionary process and we have to go through it until we refine and have a clear concept of Final Message to mankind from the Creator. That is the last edition of Users Manual for this beautiful machine. If the users don't follow the instructions due to ignorance, it is not MANUFACTURER's fault. Either's user will learn from their mistakes or machines will be dead due to failure in following the instructions. Now don't tell me Owner Manual is not clear or something is wrong in product manufacturing. It is all ignorance and we need to learn how to operate this machine and how they have to be synchronized with other machines so the whole system can run smoothly as porgrammed. Otherwise, these "jolts" and chaos will continue for some more time to come. Then finally, either we will learn it right or whole system will crash. Let's be optimistic and avail the grace time to 'do it right one last time'.

The title should have been Ignorance vs Ignorance in the name of Islam. But this is a part of Renaissance evolutionary process and we have to go through it until we refine and have a clear concept of Final Message to mankind from the Creator. That is the last edition of Users Manual for this beautiful machine. If the users don't follow the instructions due to ignorance, it is not MANUFACTURER's fault. Either's user will learn from their mistakes or machines will be dead due to failure in following the instructions. Now don't tell me Owner Manual is not clear or something is wrong in product manufacturing. It is all ignorance and we need to learn how to operate this machine and how they have to be synchronized with other machines so the whole system can run smoothly as porgrammed. Otherwise, these "jolts" and chaos will continue for some more time to come. Then finally, either we will learn it right or whole system will crash. Let's be optimistic and avail the grace time to 'do it right one last time'.

Islam would give up Jihad.

State and the 'Church' would be separated.

All because someone distributed a video clip of a girl being allegedly flogged in Pakistan?

OK.

You have hit the nail on head. Absolutely correct assessment of the situation and can not be put in words better than you have done. Every Muslim in Pakistan and India should read this atleast once. Thanks a million times for writing this.

Islam in India is over 1000 years old but Islamic punishments as practised in Saudi Arabia are considered backward, here. The seperation of state from religion is a work in progress in many countries that otherwise have secular constitutions. The assault that Islam/Muslims have gone through because of some literalist interpretations by zealots, is going to make room for some introspection and I hope alongwith the writer that some day it will make peace with the time.

How will it happen?

It will happen when a muslim considers killing of a hindu idolator as a crime towards humanity........

when they consider Jehad as a dirty word........

when they start consider jehadi as kuttas and stop eulogizing them as martyrs.......

will that happen???

I doubt!! I still come back to the question that Jayp raised and which still haunts me......

where does so much of hatred and voilence originate within Islam towards non-muslims???