Lashes to lashes, dust to dust

#101 Posted by nb on April 9, 2009

nb, congrats on having hit the nail on the head. At least this would help retain the spirit of discussion.

bj, the casualty figures doled out by you might be correct. But you did not convince ajeya and things seemed to go awry when ajeya tended to lose his cool.

Death in Kaling war was high because every citizen of Kaling, irrespective of age and sex, fired with the zeal of patriotism, wielded weapons against Asoka's army. They ceased to fit into the definition of civilians, and got killed by the charged army.

This is not the right case to be compared with the mindless killings by the muslim marauders who did not care whether they were killing/raping women or children.

Did you hear BABA RAMDEV? 'kroor' and 'bahadur' do not convey the same meaning.

Re: # 179 jang:peace and happy passover..cristos is born

sorry Jang - cristos is not born - but reborn - resurrected

get it right (T)

The Time has come, the Walrus said, to talk of many things
Of shoes and ships and sealing wax, of cabbages and Kings.


an Encore of an ODE to Shaikh Chilli


Shaikh Chilli and Tees Maar Khan
On a Dog Day Afternoon..near Choontianwala Chowk
-----------------------------------------------------------

On a dog day afternoon Shaikh Chilli and Tees Maar Khan were sitting under a peepul tree and were quite exhausted and bored. They had already given up hand-whisking the fat flies from each others faces ..flies that were heavy laden with grub in the still humid air.

Then Tees maar Khan, the man of action and adventure could not stand it any more. He , with some trepidition, suggested something in a kind of low whisper to the Shaikh Chilli..which, given the alert mind of the S.Chilli..soon made a mountain out of the molehill suggested by T.M.Khan.

Yeh there was opportunity indeed. The possibilty was there, for sure...S.Chilli thought and acquiesed to the amarous advances of T.M. Khan.

It is known that the ancient scribes have written about this historical tryst between the two in a long, detailed and juicy format, but here the same would be mentioned in a more genteel and stick-to-the facts manner.

Tees.M.Khan, that dog day afternoon, was soon excuding and adding his own heat & humidity to the afternoon; and so couldn't hold it any more.

So he asked in a very direct tugging manner that Shaikh Chilli, who was himself, by this time, getting unchilled to the idea himself, should assume the right-angled posture for their first hurrah.

Shaikh Chilli, being a Sheikh as well as a Chilli, said he has no qualms about such matters except that he is a bit finicky about his goodwill and reputation & respect among his folk.

So it was arranged that Tees.M.Khan would do what an action man is supposed to do, but it would be Shaikh Chilli who would be carried through the bazaars , atop T.M. Khan's shoulders, and that it would be Shaikh Chilli who would lay claim that it was he, the Chilli, who led the drone attacks on Tees Maar Khan's unmarred soil.

The Khan, a man of action, had no problem about this at all. To him action was more important than ideas. So he acquiesed to this Chillian Machiavelian makebelieve.

Tees Maar Khan , as per the greement, post-riotous-coitus under the peepul tree that dog day afternoon, flies abuzz, hoisted the Chilli on his shoulders and entered the Bazaar.

Shaikh Chilli had said that as they pass through the bazaar he would announce " Mein neiN aaj Tees Maar khan Kee lee hai" and the Khan had said it was O.K with him.

So when Shaikh Chilli, in a loud , clear, and triumphant voice announced the above..Tees Maar Khan piped in with equal vigour.." Lekin Jaan nay vaalay Jaantay hain"!


=====================================================
there is no moral or lesson in this historical account.
It only tells about the origin of the phrase " jann-nay vaalay janntay jhain"

yaron, tahmed is unhappy about greek princes. he understands jihad by organs well and thinks this has something to do with jihad by the bhindi. yar this is a relatively unimportant thing in indian history and not a systematic bhindi jihad, so tahmed please dont get all upset. this kinda stuff did not go on so we can call it a rare event and get on with life.

peace and happy passover..cristos is born

Guys forget it. Tahmed32 is not listening he is an author of Pak Studies book as he confessed in #139 ".

For them facts prooof etc are only those that fit their world view

The problem that some people have; I thought Tahmed was different, but it would appear not, is that they think pre-Islamic India was jahilia, and we could have had no records. (I'm now beginning to think that pre-Islamic Arabia was probably not quite as jaahil as it is made out to be either.)
There are records written on stone all up and down the countryside! But no records short of a qazi's signature or a wedding album will satisfy you, since your mind is already made up that pre-Islamic Indians were jaahils and incapable of recording history.
Back to my point, Tahmed, why do you know so little of those who ruled your land?

Few references for others (Ahmek will still demand to see a marriage video)
http://wiki.phantis.com/index.php/Seleucid_dynasty A site dedicated to Greek history

http://books.google.com/books?id=K85NA7Rg67wC&pg=PA10&lpg=PA1 0&dq=chandragupta+seleucus&source=bl&ots=-5IhORgpls&sig=FoGJj4FX bgb8LouWMtni-JdoO_Y&hl=en&ei=-UHfSePYFJeqtge5zum4DA&sa=X&oi=book _result&ct=result&resnum=10 "The First Great Political Realist: Kautilya and His Arthashastra
By Roger Boesche,Published by Lexington Books, 2003"

http://books.google.com/books?id=f1cOAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA126&lpg=PA126& ; ;dq=chandragupta+seleucus&source=bl&ots=r_FjkRCKJJ&sig=ECL-gfBvCTK2S -nvkEyzW30N0Oo&hl=en&ei=-UHfSePYFJeqtge5zum4DA&sa=X&oi=book_resu lt&ct=result&resnum=7#PPA124,M1 Page 124 - "The Modern Traveller: A Popular Description, Geographical, Historical, and Topographical, of the Various Countries of the Globe, Published by Printed for James Duncan, 1828"

http://books.google.com/books?id=oSbovvxLlWgC&pg=PA53&lpg= PA53&dq=chandragupta+seleucus&source=bl&ots=bHzQ34pxQV&sig=w8Rbs 51tG1aGJudKB6Ynpqk6PJQ&hl=en&ei=Dz_fSf7sHsqMtgfZsfi5DA&sa=X&oi=b ook_result&ct=result&resnum=1
The Khyber Pass: A History of Empire and Invasion - page 53
By Paddy Docherty
Edition: illustrated
Published by Union Square Press, 2008
ISBN 1402756968, 9781402756962

http://books.google.com/books?id=TcooAAAAYAAJ&pg=RA1-PA472& amp; amp;lpg=RA1-PA472&dq=chandragupta+seleucus&source=bl&ots=Fui-Nd4sKZ& amp; amp;sig=s5KIC3ek5WISntdhsoyU7BurDdo&hl=en&ei=4zzfSfqvGIKKyQX8vJXRDA& sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=8#PRA1-PA472,M1
Ancient India
By Edward James Rapson, page 472
Published by Macmillan, 1922

http://books.google.com/books?id=XNxiN5tzKOgC&pg=PA105&lpg=PA105 &dq=chandragupta+seleucus&source=bl&ots=IL9ZnxnOTm&sig=eNpKJrirG f8jHok7F0DQatdmAY4&hl=en&ei=eELfSYmCJobYyQXElczJDA&sa=X&oi=book_ result&ct=result&resnum=9
Ancient India
By Ramesh Chandra Majumdar
Edition: 8, illustrated
Published by Motilal Banarsidass Publ., 1977

http://books.google.com/books?id=aZk9XzqCFGUC&pg=PA41&lpg=PA41&a mp;a mp;dq=chandragupta+seleucus&source=bl&ots=jgoDErO2qk&sig=09nGzwPxmoa DlByGLdlIUKFYq20&hl=en&ei=uUnfSe3EE83gtge47Oi7DA&sa=X&oi=book_re sult&ct=result&resnum=2
The history of Afghanistan
By Meredith L. Runion, Page 41
Edition: illustrated
Published by Greenwood Publishing Group, 2007

http://books.google.com/books?id=XNxiN5tzKOgC&pg=PA105&lpg=PA105 &dq=chandragupta+seleucus&source=bl&ots=IL9ZnyfMYt&sig=beZqYqFHA avOBiKDABqSC_QUoGE&hl=en&ei=uUnfSe3EE83gtge47Oi7DA&sa=X&oi=book_ result&ct=result&resnum=5
Ancient India
By Ramesh Chandra Majumdar, Page 105
Edition: 8, illustrated
Published by Motilal Banarsidass Publ., 1977

lets try to educate our soft-islamist friend, tahmedji on real indian history. Maybe he can look at india without the islamo-supremacist viewpoint typical of even quite educated pakistanis.

From Ashoka's edicts (300 BC) -

-------------------------------------
Beloved-of-the-Gods, King Piyadasi, desires that all religions should reside everywhere, for all of them desire self-control and purity of heart.[14] But people have various desires and various passions, and they may practice all of what they should or only a part of it. But one who receives great gifts yet is lacking in self-control, purity of heart, gratitude and firm devotion, such a person is mean.

Beloved-of-the-Gods, King Piyadasi, honors both ascetics and the householders of all religions, and he honors them with gifts and honors of various kinds.[22] But Beloved-of-the-Gods, King Piyadasi, does not value gifts and honors as much as he values this -- that there should be growth in the essentials of all religions.[23] Growth in essentials can be done in different ways, but all of them have as their root restraint in speech, that is, not praising one's own religion, or condemning the religion of others without good cause. And if there is cause for criticism, it should be done in a mild way. But it is better to honor other religions for this reason. By so doing, one's own religion benefits, and so do other religions, while doing otherwise harms one's own religion and the religions of others. Whoever praises his own religion, due to excessive devotion, and condemns others with the thought "Let me glorify my own religion," only harms his own religion. Therefore contact (between religions) is good.[24] One should listen to and respect the doctrines professed by others. Beloved-of-the-Gods, King Piyadasi, desires that all should be well-learned in the good doctrines of other religions.

Beloved-of-the-Gods, King Piyadasi, conquered the Kalingas eight years after his coronation.[25] One hundred and fifty thousand were deported, one hundred thousand were killed and many more died (from other causes). After the Kalingas had been conquered, Beloved-of-the-Gods came to feel a strong inclination towards the Dhamma, a love for the Dhamma and for instruction in Dhamma. Now Beloved-of-the-Gods feels deep remorse for having conquered the Kalingas.

Indeed, Beloved-of-the-Gods is deeply pained by the killing, dying and deportation that take place when an unconquered country is conquered. But Beloved-of-the-Gods is pained even more by this -- that Brahmans, ascetics, and householders of different religions who live in those countries, and who are respectful to superiors, to mother and father, to elders, and who behave properly and have strong loyalty towards friends, acquaintances, companions, relatives, servants and employees -- that they are injured, killed or separated from their loved ones. Even those who are not affected (by all this) suffer when they see friends, acquaintances, companions and relatives affected. These misfortunes befall all (as a result of war), and this pains Beloved-of-the-Gods.

There is no country, except among the Greeks, where these two groups, Brahmans and ascetics, are not found, and there is no country where people are not devoted to one or another religion.[26] Therefore the killing, death or deportation of a hundredth, or even a thousandth part of those who died during the conquest of Kalinga now pains Beloved-of-the-Gods. Now Beloved-of-the-Gods thinks that even those who do wrong should be forgiven where forgiveness is possible.

Re: # 154 Tahmed32

"And btw, Indian chroniclers dont even mention Alexander - the concept of a factual recording of history was unknown in India until the muslims introduced it"

So, pray, how do we get the histories of the Gupta Empire and the southern pre-Islamic kingdoms? Where did you learn that 'fact' - from Pakistaniyat studies in 6th grade?

And regarding the fact that 'muslims introduced it (along with many other aspects of civilized life)'
No doubt that Muslims introduced new art and culture, but here is a quiz for you: What in your opinion is the world's first human rights declaration?

Your response (or lack of it) will speak volumes about your scholarship:)

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Re: # 169 Dost

Here is the reference:

"Seleucus also gave his daughter in marriage to Chandragupta and appointed Megasthenes as ambassador to the Maurya court. Scholars owe much information about Mauryan India to a detailed account written by Megasthenes."

http://www.answers.com/topic/chandragupta-maurya

Actual ly, it became established practice to bind alliance with matrimonial ties between the Mauryas and Greeks. Chandragupta's marriage may have been a high-profile one, but there were numerous other marriages between lesser nobles.

The Vakataka-Gupta Age by RCM is very good. He has a co-author for this book.

there is another one which has all the translations of all the edicts, rock stone etc of Ashoka and a few others - I forget the name and author. I will put up the details here when I get back home. Indian authors ofcourse.

In one of the edicts, the number of people dead/killed in the Kalinga wars was also mentioned. Interestingly, though the numbers are mind boggling, the transformation of Asoka's mind was also written about. It is in the brahmi script - and on my recent visits to India have seen these in Sanchi, and many other places.

Re: # 169

DM, Kosambi's book is a great read as well. Well reasoned, large number of references, and is well cited as well.

RC Majumdar is another great read

I recall reading them sometime back. In fact they do cover some of the aspects you guys have been discussing.

tahmed#155:

Thank you for your welcome but I never left chowk. I never read A.L.Basham's book, just know about it and have heard the professor. My knowledge of Chandragupta's marriage with Seleucus's daughter is based on my high school history book which, as far as I remember, described it as a symbol of alliance rather than anything else.

Thanks to the media, we know that we care. The sadistic and perverted spectacle has led to mass outrage.

Why thank the media to realise you care? So if the media didnot high light it, does it mean people would not care. Its as if you are saying, actually it was the embarrassment of seeing this on TV that has caused us anguish, and we need to be seen to doing something.

Come on Ms Minhas, this not really the case it is? or is it?

interesting article. A few queries/issues/points though:

you say:f you expected better from the Taliban, you probably have a shaky grasp of recent history, or really any kind of history at all. But that’s all right because it’s not your fault. If you have been raised and educated in Pakistan, your access to accurate information and ability to contextualize has
probably been hamstrung by bad textbooks and worse teachers. This is why you have internalized a tolerance to pseudo religious fascism, and why you still continue to wonder why Bangladesh stalked off in a huff all those years ago. But do not fear, media is here!

I high light the media part here. It is interesting that the responsibility has been shifted onto the media. The Media has and should have no role in this. There is nothing wrong with the text books - they merely reflect what is the national interest of the society (at an editorial level they are free to interpret facts to suit the national self-interest - though I presume factually they are correct). The media is merely reflecting, at a superficial level, the pressures on the image this "national self-interest" is creating when it interacts with the world at large. Unfortunately, Pakistani is not strong (economically, industrially, scientifically) to turn the pressure the other way. So essentially, the media is just playing this out - because it is at one level embarrassed.

Interestingly you say "why you still continue to wonder why Bangladesh stalked off in a huff all those years ago". Apparently, Bangladesh today has better social statistics than when it was a part of undivided Pakistan, and better than Pakistan today (maybe some one can correct me on this). Yet it was and is no less islamic than Pakistan That is something to think about!