Lashes to lashes, dust to dust

In explanation of the verse 104-105 of Surah A'al-e-Imran
" And there has to be a group of people from among you who call towards the good, and bid the fai and forbid the unfair" told that The criterion for the people of this particular group includes enough knowledge and understanding of the teachings of Islam.

taliban should come to power in pakistan. you know why ?because we the indian soldiers in the remote garrisons of kashmirs are bored to our bones. the last leT guys whom we killed was a 15 yr old boy and a woman terrorist !
we didnot join the force to kill pansies, for god sake.
let the vanquishers of brits,commies and yanks come to us, and we will have fun.

#299 adamkhan
Adam Khan,
I understand your anger but I think anger is your worst enemy when it comes to politics.

I am not in favor of the ANP or the Pakistan government’s decision to give in to the mullah in Swat. I have strong feelings abt what is going on in Swat and other parts of the NWFP and FATA.

In Pakistan’s context the mullah military alliance, which is not actually an alliance but a master-slave relationship, played a major part in the destruction of the NWFP society. However, we can’t ignore the reality that Pathans are a conservative society and often they look for solutions from Islamic injunctions.

In the 70s and part of the 80s, the peasants in parts of Malakand division were completely behind Khan Afzal Bungash and Major Ishaq’s Muzdoor Kissan Party and that party was as radical as they can get in Pakistan. It was a Maoist party but was actually to the left of Chairman Mao.

How that area slipped in to Mullah Fazal/Sufi’s hands is not a big mystery now. Mullah Fazal of TSNM played the same cards that Major Ishaq and Afzal Bungash played in that area. He exploited economic conditions in that area. There was a political Vacuum in that area after the Mazdoor Kisan Party was crushed by Zia. The ANP never attempted to fill the vacuum and relied on the Khans of the area to maintain election superiority. (I am not sure his name is Fazal so I apologize in advance but who cares abt the name mullah is good enough for all of them.)

The politics is not abt winning elections; it is more abt creating a grassroots structure. ANP did not do it but the Mullahs have done it. ANP might still win elections there but the hardliners or the people who truly are struggling for the rights have already chosen sides.

At this point the best way is take a step back and think abt how the current position can be reversed.

One idea is to use the army and confront the mullah again. But we know that in the last 4 yrs the Army never actually confronted its slaves so that it can use them at a later stage. The ANP pov, as I understand it, is that they want to keep the army away from NWFP and Swat and they wanna find a way to bring peace to that society. The army has no such interest.

Sometimes the best policy is to bide for the time and make a move when things are ready. Mullahs have no way of keeping people under control. They will resort to intimidation and that will be their undoing.

Right now mullahs in that area have shown their political muscle but they have no program or the political intelligence to make that last or cash the public support they have.


In a nutshell, this thing is not over yet. There is time and people should continue to push back but a military action in the area is not a solution.

tahir

"Yes I did! Where were you, walking the chowq dogs?"

After going thru all your ilogs where you attacked everyone and everything without rhyme or reason, I began to lose interest in you. My opinion is that whenever faced with a need to stand up and prove the detractors wrong, you hide for a couple of days and then visit chowk as if it did not happen.

What you did to bittersweetmojo was, to say the least, was unbecoming of the maulana of your standard.

#328 Posted by tahir

"The silliness of Indian comedy needn't be compared with the seriousness of what you're mockingly referring to"

I see. So the rantings of loop, in a prophetic manner is what you call a serious dialogue. Please read his interact once again and see where you are wrong.

An open letter to Gen Kayani
View from the other side Col (r) Harish Puri
http://www.thenews.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=172290

Tuesday, April 14, 2009
Dear Gen Kayani,

----

Credit must be given to the Pakistani newspaper that published Harish Puri's letter.

Re: # 329

"...It is about 'the people' not 'the individual', and what rights are you talking about?..."

Your trickery has been played in now diseased Soviet Union. Where, outside Marxist society have you heard of democracy of the people, by the people, for the people without personal freedom to choose and without personal liberty.

I do not think you are so dumb, pleased do not, therefore, pretend. You know what Tahmed sahib meant. If not then please be honest did you really get education at the buckle of bible belt college.

Re: # 333
pew...
there is no bigger dumb than this Harish Puri....idiot, he is talking a musla in terms of human sense and expecting something human!!!!! this fellow needs caning based on Shariat Law....

woo hoo prophetboy...quick..find a hole to bury your head in...reality dead ahead!!!

April 14, 2009
Insurgents Make Inroads in Key Pakistan Province
By SABRINA TAVERNISE, RICHARD A. OPPEL Jr. and ERIC SCHMITT

This article was reported by Sabrina Tavernise, Richard A. Oppel Jr. and Eric Schmitt and written by Ms. Tavernise.

DERA GHAZI KHAN, Pakistan — Taliban insurgents are teaming up with local militant groups to make inroads in Punjab, the province that is home to more than half of Pakistanis, reinvigorating an alliance that Pakistani and American authorities say poses a serious risk to the stability of the country.

The deadly assault in March in Lahore, Punjab’s capital, against the Sri Lankan cricket team, and the bombing last fall of the Marriott Hotel in Islamabad, the national capital, were only the most spectacular examples of the joint campaign, they said.

Now police officials, local residents and analysts warn that if the government does not take decisive action, these dusty, impoverished fringes of Punjab could be the next areas facing the insurgency. American intelligence and counterterrorism officials also said they viewed the developments with alarm.

“I don’t think a lot of people understand the gravity of the issue,� said a senior police official in Punjab, who declined to be idenfitied because he was discussing threats to the state. “If you want to destabilize Pakistan, you have to destabilize Punjab.�

As American drone attacks disrupt strongholds of the Taliban and Al Qaeda in the tribal areas, the insurgents are striking deeper into Pakistan — both in retaliation and in search of new havens.

Tell-tale signs of creeping militancy abound in a belt of towns and villages near here that a reporter visited last week. Militants have gained strength considerably in the district of Dera Ghazi Khan, which is a gateway both to Taliban-controlled areas and the heart of Punjab, police and local residents say. Many were terrified.

Some villages, just north of here, are so deeply infiltrated by militants that they are already considered no-go zones by their neighbors.

In at least five towns in southern and western Punjab, including the midsize hub of Multan, barber shops, music stores and Internet cafes offensive to the militants’ strict interpretation of Islam have received threats. Traditional ceremonies that include drumming and dancing have been halted in some areas. Hard-line ideologues have addressed large crowds to push their idea of Islamic revolution. Sectarian attacks, dormant here since the 1990s, have erupted once again.

“It’s going from bad to worse,� said a senior police official in Dera Ghazi Khan. “They are now more active. These are the facts.�

American officials agreed. Bruce Riedel, who led the Obama administration’s recently completed strategy review of Pakistan and Afghanistan, said the Taliban now had “extensive links into the Punjab.�

“You are seeing more of a coalescence of these militant groups,� said Mr. Riedel, a former C.I.A. official. “Connections that have always existed are becoming tighter and more public than they have in the past.�

The Punjabi militant groups have had links with the Taliban, who are mostly Pashtun tribesmen, since the 1980s. Some of the Punjabi groups are veterans of Pakistan’s state-sponsored insurgency against Indian forces in Kashmir. Others made targets of Shiites.

Under pressure from the United States, former President Pervez Musharraf cut back state support for the Punjabi groups. They either went underground or migrated to the tribal areas, where they deepened their ties with the Taliban and Al Qaeda.

At least 20 militants killed in American strikes in the tribal areas since last summer were Punjabi, according to people from the tribal areas and Pakistani officials. One Pakistani security official estimated that 5 percent to 10 percent of militants in the tribal regions could be Punjabi.

The alliance is based on more than shared ideology. “These are tactical alliances,� said a senior American counterterrorism official, who spoke on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to discuss intelligence matters. The Pashtun Taliban and Arab militants, who are part of Al Qaeda, have money, sanctuary, training sites and suicide bombers. The Punjabi militants can provide logistical help in Punjabi cities, like Lahore, including handling bombers and target reconnaissance.

The cooperation between the groups intensified greatly after the government’s siege of Islamic hard-liners at the Red Mosque in Islamabad, in mid-2007, Pakistani and American security officials say. The siege has since become a rallying cry.

One such joint operation, an American security official said, was the Marriott bombing in Islamabad in September, which killed more than 50 people.

As this cooperation intensifies, places like Dera Ghazi Khan are particularly vulnerable. This frontier town is home to a combustible mix of worries: poverty, a growing phalanx of hard-line religious schools and a uranium processing plant that is a part of Pakisitan’s nuclear program.

It is also strategically situated at the intersection of two main roads. One is a main artery into Pakistan’s heartland, in southern Punjab. The other connects Baluchistan Province in the west to the North-West Frontier Province, both Taliban strongholds.

“We are being cornered in a blind alley,� said Mohammed Ali, a local landlord. “We can’t breathe easily.�

Attacks intended to intimidate and sow sectarian strife are more common. The police point to a suicide bombing in Dera Ghazi Khan on Feb. 5. Two local Punjabis, with the help of Taliban backers, orchestrated the attack, which killed 29 people at a Shiite ceremony, the local police said.

The authorities arrested two men as masterminds on April 6: Qari Muhammad Ismail Gul, the leader of a local madrasa; and Ghulam Mustafa Kaisrani, a jihadi who posed as a salesman for a medical company.

They belonged to a banned Punjabi group called Lashkar-i-Jhangvi, but were tied through phone calls to two deputies of the Pakistani Taliban leader Baitullah Mehsud, the police said.

“The phone numbers they call are in Waziristan,� said a police official, referring to the Taliban base in the tribal areas. “They are working together hand in glove.� One of the men had gone for training in Waziristan last summer, the police said. The operations are well-supported. Mr. Kaisrani had several bank transfers worth about $11 million from his Pakistani account, the authorities said.

Local crimes, including at least two recent bank robberies in Dera Ghazi Khan, were also traced to networks of Islamic militants, officials said.

“The money that’s coming in is huge,� said Zulfiqar Hameed, head of investigations for the Lahore Police Department. “When you go back through the chain of the transaction, you invariably find it’s been done for money.�

After the suicide attack here, the police confiscated a 20-minute inspirational video, titled “Revenge,� for the Red Mosque, which gave testimonials from suicide bombers in different cities and post-attack images.

Umme Hassan, the wife of a fiery preacher who was killed during the Red Mosque siege, now frequently travels to south Punjab, to rally the faithful. She has made 12 visits in the past several months before cheering crowds and showing emotional clips of the attack, said a Punjabi official who has been monitoring her visits.

“She claimed that they would bring Islamic revolution in three months,� said Umar Draz, who attended a rally in Muzzafargarh.

The situation in south and west Punjab is still far from that in the Swat Valley, a part of North-West Frontier Province that is now fully under Taliban control after the military agreed to a truce in February. But there are strong parallels.

The Taliban here exploit many of the same weaknesses that have allowed them to expand in other areas: an absent or intimidated police force; a lack of attention from national and provincial leaders; a population steadily cowed by threats, or won over by hard-line mullahs who usurp authority by playing on government neglect and poverty.

In Shadan Lund, a village just north of here, militants are openly demanding Islamic law, or Sharia, said Jan Sher, whose brother is a teacher there. “The situation is sharply going toward Swat,� Mr. Sher said. He and others said the single biggest obstacle to stopping the advance of militancy was the attitudes of Pakistanis themselves, whose fury at the United States has led to blind support for everyone that goes against it.

Shabaz Sharif, the chief minister of Punjab, said he was painfully aware of the problems of insurgent infiltration and was taking steps to restore people’s faith in government, including plans for new schools and hospitals. “Hearts and minds must be won,� he said in an interview Monday. “If this struggle fails, this country has no future.�

But people complain that landowners and local politicians have done nothing to stop the advance and, in some cases, even assist the militants by giving money to some of the religious schools.

“The government is useless,� said Mr. Ali, the local landlord. “They live happy, secure lives in Lahore. Their children study abroad. They only come here to contest elections.�

The police are left alone to stop the advance. But in Punjab, as in much of the rest of Pakistan, they are spread unevenly, with little presence in rural areas. Out of 160,000 police officers in Punjab, fewer than 60,000 are posted in rural areas, leaving frontier stations in districts virtually unprotected, police officials said.

Locals feel helpless. When a 15-year-old boy vanished from a madrasa in a village near here recently — his classmates said to go on jihad — his uncle could not afford to go look for him, let alone confront the powerful men who run the madrasa.

“We are simple people,� the man said. “What can we do?�

Sabrina Tavernise reported from Dera Ghazi Khan, Pakistan; Richard A. Oppel Jr. from Peshawar, Pakistan; and Eric Schmitt from Washington. Mark Mazzetti contributed reporting from Washington, Waqar Gillani from Dera Ghazi Khan, and Pir Zubair Shah from Peshawar.

An open letter to Gen Kayani
View from the other side Col (r) Harish Puri
http://www.thenews.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=172290

Tuesday, April 14, 2009
Dear Gen Kayani,

Sir, let me begin by recounting that old army quip that did the rounds in the immediate aftermath of World war II: To guarantee victory, an army should ideally have German generals, British officers, Indian soldiers, American equipment and Italian enemies.

A Pakistani soldier that I met in Iraq in 2004 lamented the fact that the Pakistani soldier in Kargil had been badly let down firstly by Nawaz Sharif and then by the Pakistani officers' cadre. Pakistani soldiers led by Indian officers, , he believed, would be the most fearsome combination possible. Pakistani officers, he went on to say, were more into real estate, defence housing colonies and the like.

As I look at two photographs of surrender that lie before me, I can't help recalling his words. The first is the celebrated event at Dhaka on Dec 16, 1971, which now adorns most Army messes in Delhi and Calcutta. The second, sir, is the video of a teenage girl being flogged by the Taliban in Swat -- not far, I am sure, from one of your Army check posts.

The surrender by any Army is always a sad and humiliating event. Gen Niazi surrendered in Dhaka to a professional army that had outnumbered and outfought him. No Pakistani has been able to get over that humiliation, and 16th December is remembered as a black day by the Pakistani Army and the Pakistani state. But battles are won and lost � armies know this, and having learnt their lessons, they move on.

But much more sadly, the video of the teenager being flogged represents an even more abject surrender by the Pakistani Army. The surrender in 1971, though humiliating, was not disgraceful. This time around, sir, what happened on your watch was something no Army commander should have to live through. The girl could have been your own daughter, or mine.

I have always maintained that the Pakistani Army, like its Indian counterpart, is a thoroughly professional outfit. It has fought valiantly in the three wars against India, and also accredited itself well in its UN missions abroad. It is, therefore, by no means a pushover. The instance of an Infantry unit, led by a lieutenant colonel, meekly laying down arms before 20-odd militants should have been an aberration. But this capitulation in Swat, that too so soon after your own visit to the area, is an assault on the sensibilities of any soldier. What did you tell your soldiers? What great inspirational speech did you make that made your troops back off without a murmur? Sir, I have fought insurgency in Kashmir as well as the North-East, but despite the occasional losses suffered (as is bound to be the case in counter-insurgency operations), such total surrender is unthinkable.

I have been a signaller, and it beats me how my counterparts in your Signal Corps could not locate or even jam a normal FM radio station broadcasting on a fixed frequency at fixed timings. Is there more than meets the eye?

I am told that it is difficult for your troops to "fight their own people." But you never had that problem in East Pakistan in 1971, where the atrocities committed by your own troops are well documented in the Hamoodur Rahman Commission Report. Or is it that the Bengalis were never considered "your own" people, influenced as they were by the Hindus across the border? Or is that your troops are terrified by the ruthless barbarians of the Taliban?

Sir, it is imperative that we recognise our enemy without any delay. I use the word "our" advisedly � for the Taliban threat is not far from India's borders. And the only force that can stop them from dragging Pakistan back into the Stone Age is the force that you command. In this historic moment, providence has placed a tremendous responsibility in your hands. Indeed, the fate of your nation, the future of humankind in the subcontinent rests with you. It doesn't matter if it is "my war" or "your war" � it is a war that has to be won. A desperate Swati citizen's desperate lament says it all � "Please drop an atom bomb on us and put us out of our misery!" Do not fail him, sir.

But in the gloom and the ignominy, the average Pakistani citizen has shown us that there is hope yet. The lawyers, the media, have all refused to buckle even under direct threats. It took the Taliban no less than 32 bullets to still the voice of a brave journalist. Yes, there is hope � but why don't we hear the same language from you? Look to these brave hearts, sir � and maybe we shall see the tide turn. Our prayers are with you, and the hapless people of Swat.

The New York Times predicts that Pakistan will collapse in six months. Do you want to go down in history as the man who allowed that to happen?



The writer is a retired colonel of the Indian army who lives in Pune. Email: hbpuri@hotmail.com

#329 Posted by masadi on April 13, 2009 6:23:28 pm


that slave owning thug James Madison....


didn't mo wax a village full of jews?

masadi: so what if James Madison had slaves - that was over 200 years ago. At that time the ulema in turkey were arguing that slavery was permitted in islam as well, and slave markets flourished in the ottoman empire as well. dont judge people who lived in the past by today's standards.

masadi: no you idiot. democracy rests on the foundation of basic rights of the individual. a "democracy" that violates the basic rights of the indivdual is a sham - meant to fool simpletons like you.

Tahmed writes "Wrong, dud man. Protection of the rights of the individual is the very basis for democracy and freedom.

The name James Madison will be shine through history as being the main proponent of the US Bill of Rights. Otoh, the name Jehadi Masadi stands tarnished before history due to you, good only for minting khota paisas."

Learn what democracy means moron. It is about 'the people' not 'the individual', and what rights are you talking about? Rights determined by whom? By a dictator? or 'by the people'? Make up your goddamned mind whether you are for democracy or dictatorship because the American corporation when it got recognized as an 'individual' in 1886 by extension of the 14th amendment to protect its 'rights' totally subverted democracy.

And where the F do you get off calling me a Jehadi? and comparing my high morality and regard for democracy to that slave owning thug James Madison....

TNITC masadi

Re: # 323
Nem,
"We had the above dialogues in one of the best acclaimed comedy TV serials in India"

The silliness of Indian comedy needn't be compared with the seriousness of what you're mockingly referring to.

Talk to me.

Re: # 324
Nem,
"Did you try doing this yourself? I know you are well versed in quran.'

Yes I did! Where were you, walking the chowq dogs?

"On the contrary, (I shall be happy if proved wrong) you did nothing to defend anything and, instead, resorted to calling names and twisting the nicks of those who dared."

What a relief that you don't get upset because you don't read all my posts!

Can't you see the result of the work I did? Just ask those who run this website.

#325 so - hindu astrologers are predicting the end of Pakistan by counting the number of nits in their heads?? now Pakistan is really in trouble.

#322 Posted by Pew_Research

"It actually came about in '71. Did you notice? "

And showing signs of culminating in the present day context.

Having said this, I would also like to make it clear that the astrology is used for working out the indications of the imminent, so that steps can be taken to avoid the disaster.

It is also given in the preamble of the astrology treatises that if all the predictions would have been 100 per cent accurate, half the mankind would have committed suicide and the remaining would have gone mad!

#318 Posted by tahir

"No, on the contrary, you must STUDY your Book and give befitting responses."

Tahir mian,

Did you try doing this yourself? I know you are well versed in quran.

On the contrary, (I shall be happy if proved wrong) you did nothing to defend anything and, instead, resorted to calling names and twisting the nicks of those who dared.

#312 Posted by LOOP

"defence is best for ppl who are in the wrong,"

NO! Defence is best for ppl who are WRONGED. In the case referred to by you, you have not been wronged. YOU ARE ONLY BEING SHOWN THE MIRROR.

AND YES. You should not put up any defence, because there is no defence available to you. Whatever is told has been substantiated in your scriptures and hadiths. And the action of the prophet and his followers. If you try to defend an indefensible thing, just as you said, you would land up in more of a mess and make a CLOWN yourself.

Your funda is wrong. You believe what prophet said because he said it. Nobody else saw the angel, nor the angel presented the prophet before the people and declared him the prophet.

"Sabzian achhe hain"

"Tum kaise keh sakte ho?"

"Sabziwali khud keh rahi thhi"

We had the above dialogues in one of the best acclaimed comedy TV serials in India.

Re: # 321 Tahmed32
It actually came about in '71. Did you notice?

#320 continued: of course, neither bulleya nor hamidm stand a chance before the Indians - who have been predicting the destruction of Pakistan at the rate of 35 PPH (Predictions Per Hour) ever since 1947.

#317 nb: bulleya is competing with hamidm for the Guiness Book of World Records in the category "Highest Number of Predications Per Hour".

Re: # 317
nb....
hardworking fellow indeed....this reminds me about the story of robert bruce....

Re: # 312
Loop
"ppl who are saying defaming things against islam and its laws should be banned without any warnings. and all muslims are urged not to answer to their comments"

No, on the contrary, you must STUDY your Book and give befitting responses. Why be afraid of being ban-chowqed? These NKGs and Ajeyas are nothing if you hang in there.

Trust me.

Poor Romair, he has a record of every prediction being completely and dramatically wrong, but the prophecies just keep coming! :)

Re: # 315

Have you ever thought that even though the life of Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) is an open book; every minor detail of his personal and public life is available through none other but Muslim sources and yet you have to twist the facts to "attack" his personality? What does it tell you about your own moral values?

#313 tahmed32

[i am not worried about those who defame islam - no one can "defame" you except yourself.

I am worried about those who hide behind the mask of islam - since they are busy destroying Pakistan right now. ]

It's amazing how so amny people "defame" Islam - meaning for example all those who write factual accounts about mo's misdeeds - includes ALL islamic historical sources beginning from his wives, close relatives, contemporaries and so on.

It is a plot, I tell you. Why does EVERYBODY have to write and rewrite and re-validate all those negative things about mo and thus give the non-muslims a chance to "attack" the man who presented the world with the amazing koran (and thus brought much peace and happiness to this world)?

Oh, you ask WHY is the koran amazing? Because er..um..it simply is. It contains amazing statements. If you can't find any, it's your fault - just ask masadi. If you are still not convinced, read for example the amazing chapter called "The Cow". Why is it called "The Cow", you ask? Because god, I mean allah the great named it so. So there!

=== Interact Filtered ===
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LOOP: i am not worried about those who defame islam - no one can "defame" you except yourself.

I am worried about those who hide behind the mask of islam - since they are busy destroying Pakistan right now.

i think the ppl of chowk should take notice because this welcome to read, write and think is sort of becoming
welcome to trash, belittle and promote ignorance.
ppl who are saying defaming things against islam and its laws should be banned without any warnings.
and all muslims are urged not to answer to their comments, we are on the truth and truth needs no defence, defence is best for ppl who are in the wrong, plus lots of time when you guys try to defend these kafirs it leads them to say much worse things, its best to ignore such ppl. they will surely see the truth one day and that day is not very far.

masadi: "This phrase "tyranny of the majority" made famous by James Madison in order to subvert democracy by ensuring that the rights of the propertied class are protected as against the ignorance of the masses, according to an elitist point of view. "

Wrong, dud man. Protection of the rights of the individual is the very basis for democracy and freedom.

The name James Madison will be shine through history as being the main proponent of the US Bill of Rights. Otoh, the name Jehadi Masadi stands tarnished before history due to you, good only for minting khota paisas.

Correction to #309

Hasho #286 You are equating military action with military rule. These are two different things.

Hasho #286 You are having equating military action vs military rule. These are two different things.

Hasho:

lets see how effective that "nazar i saani" is. If fazlullah announces the death penalty for ANP ministers and members of parliament for not resigning then and only then can we see a flood of resignations from this lot. ANP as a party has become a "lota" on its mandate.

But in anycase, I had been reading your posts about this whole issue and you always stated that there existed a military mullah nexus that was the strength of this issue.

Do you still believe in that or is the Taliban a totally anti military establishment force that carries the verdict of the Pakistani Pushtoon?

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Re: # 288

GUBO, Grease Up and Bend Over - is the ultimate paki strategy for all tricky situations... pakis have perfected this to an art form... LOL

Adam Khan,
I dont know what you tell you. I guess you are stuck some where.
Afandyar is ready to come out of the central government if Zadari does not sign the deal. He would go to any length to see the deal go thru.
Read this:
http://jang.com.pk/jang/apr2009-daily/12-04-2009/up92.gif

I will write a post on UP for you to read later.

since musharraf has come up in adamkhan's post and capt clueless is lurking

http://www.chowk.com/interacts/5254/1/0/a

#37 Posted by Romair(aka bulleya) on March 5, 2002 2:15:36 am


There were talks of Pakistan turning into Talibanland etc., in a few years or so. I always stated, when push came to shove, the Taliban of Pakistan would crumble. Which is what happened.

I think there will be a shakeup of the thought processes of the Pakistani English speaking intellectuals now. They are begining to realize that there are good people in the Army also. They are begining to realize that Pakistan was never as close to Talibanization as they predicted.

Based on this, what Musharraf has been able to accomplish is incredible. He is now the symbol of Pakistan in the Western media. Just like when the West pictures Iraq, they think Saddam (= bad guy), when it pictures Pakistan, it thinks Musharraf (= good guy). This is now the image of Pakistan in the average American grandmother`s mind, and all the Ganguly`s of the world will not be able change it, provided we play our cards correctly.

#302 Posted by adamkhan on April 12, 2009 1:07:57 pm

yeah..reading's not so hard either..


the majority of pakis who count (i.e. punjabis)


in any case, i don't know what make the average pashtun tick...i can only speak of pakis that really matter i.e. punjabis...and how they think,..

Arjun:

I am talking about the people of the NWFP, the Taliban do not represent them in anyway. Generalizations are easy to make.

fazlullah et al are popular because they are seen as islamic warriors...lets not forget, the majority of pakis who count (i.e. punjabis) were completely on board the lets use the jihadis for strategic depth/core issue thing...9/11 just made it a little inconvenient for pakis in the west to admit their love for jihad...after the targeted deportations of pakis began, hilarity ensued...pakis totally denied they had ever supported the jihadi policies...it was like the SNL skit with hillary denying she had supported the iraq war...

Mushy's unpopularity has everything to do with the drone strikes..the drone strikes burst the paki bubble of self-delusion and made them realize they were being bent over and worked upon..they realized they were really america's female of the canine species when all this time they had deluded themselves into thinking they were some sort of equal partners in the WoT...like the UK..

Please don't tell me pakis actually think that mushy's unpopularity had anything to do with droopy or their new found love for democracy...

Hasho:

The stand of the Taliban is not the stand of the NWFP against the establishment. If you dont have a measure of popular support to these guys then how can you legitmize their reign of terror as the peoples verdict? Sufi Muhammad has been around since 1994, if his was the anti establishment stance that the people cherished then why did they vote in ANP? Swat was doing MUCH MUCH better than many areas of rural Sindh and Punjab, it was one of the last places in Pakistan where the people would be that desperate to resort to beheading police officials.

Your logic could also be applied to justify Musharaf's takeover, people were fed up with the politcians and they wanted musharaf. How is Musharaf on principle any different than Fazlullah, in terms of relying on power (rather than vote) to justify control? Infact Musharaf was MUCH better than the likes of Fazlullah in allowing dissent, yet still most people who are calling fazlullah as the peoples representative were also the most vocal in decrying musharafs rule. what gives? is it only because fazlullah rules in a fringe of Pakistan where as musharaf was in Islamabad?

All these explanations of a "peoples" uprising is a mockery of this whole situation. You are lumping the victims with the victimizers, its simply not fair.

tahmed writes "It provides checks and balances against the "tyranny of the majority""

This phrase "tyranny of the majority" made famous by James Madison in order to subvert democracy by ensuring that the rights of the propertied class are protected as against the ignorance of the masses, according to an elitist point of view. Of course this tyrant tahmed is going to support that BS, to the capitalist the tyranny of the majority is their demand for a just wage, equitable distribution of wealth and basic needs fulfillment. Insert this BS into a democratic system and you ensure that it will be abused to protect the rich minority rather than the oppressed minority. If there is true democracy where people's values are determined through reason and not top down dictation there would be no divisions that lead to a 'tyranny of the majority'. These tricks of the so called 'founding skunks' of the land of tyranny, can fool only dimwits like most of the peons of the west.

TNITC masadi

#213 tahmed32

[that's right. taliban beat women. pious hindus merely kill them - in the fetus, in the kitchen, and (until the brits put an end to it) on funeral pyres.]

Here's why your logic does not hold water.

1) Taliban consistently cite the koran and the hadiths as the source for their actions. The hindus who commit infaticide, bride-burning etc. DO NOT.

2) Taliban's actions has a lot of support in your Paki community. In India, these people are regarded as criminals and despised by EVERYONE in Indian society.

3) Taliban's actions are difficult to prosecute in Paki courts, because Paki law by constitution has to be consistent with the koran, and it is a matter of "interpreting" - for example, how much wife-beating is okay in the koran. The criminals in India are treated exactly as they are - as crminals.

As far as your idiotic contention that the Brits stopped the practice of Sati, it only reveals the typical K for Kafir education system in Pakiland. Hindus like Raja Rammohan Ray and Iswarchandra Vidyasagar had to petition long and hard the then administration (which happened to be British) to get Sati outlawed.

You are a communal Islamist, and should try to talk less. And by the way, contrary to what the koran says, there are NO whouries awaiting you in "jannat", or little boys either. Sorry.

Re: # 162
NB,
"I am leaving you to the loving care of Tahir"

Please don't take up the odd job of introducing strange kinds of love at this love-less website!

:)

#269 Posted by tahmed32

"i dont see any pakistanis chatering about india. no amount of bakwas from you can change that."

Why don't you tell administrators of this blog to have the forum in urdooo? May be promising about a dozen of virgins for participating would do the trick.

#291 Posted by Pew_Research on April 12, 2009 8:54:55 am

" did it occur to you why the mighty Pak Army (not your favorite) stood off 'Two major powers of the world',"
Stood off ...what? They were doing the biddings of those major powers. Even now they strike at will, anywhere in Pakiland, that too operating from Paki soil?

"but crumbled in 14 days in '71?"

Your knowledge of history seems to be poor. Do you know how many unarmed civilians were killed in East Pakistan and how many girls had their nipples bitten off and how much they contributed to the cause of their army by impregnating bengali women with harami would be paki soldiers?

In the last budget the Frontier government has allocated extra half a billion PKR to provide better equipment and training to the police but unfortunately they had to cut the education budget because they didn't get any kind of financial help from the central government.

The Frontier should get extra fund from the central government because of the deteriorating security situation but we know how this fucked up country is run.

Whenever an army fights its own people, it is destined to be defeated. Bengalis would have defeated it but the Indians stepped in to save the army.

Re: # 289 Hasho

That's spine all right! You have it, in fact plenty of it. Now it should be no problem to fix this problem. BTW, while you are on your high horse, did it occur to you why the mighty Pak Army (not your favorite) stood off 'Two major powers of the world', but crumbled in 14 days in '71?
Cheers!

#266 Posted by tahmed32

"hmmm...do I smell cow dung"

Hey, did u hit your head against wall, by chance?

Lets talk abt the spine now.

The Indian nationalism is potato chip thin, a little pressure would break it. Pakistanis are dealing with the Afghan issue for the last 30 yrs. Two major powers of the world placed their armies next to Pakistan. Now the NATO and the US is sitting there with enormous firepower and the Pakistani are still holding up well.

Think of the rolling over of the whole India before the 1200 nomad warriors just a short 1000 yrs ago.

Tahmed:

I have some evidence (albeit anecdotal) that supports your position that the Pak police can't handle the Taliban. At a local favorite kabab joint that I frequent, one of the waiters is a former Pakistani policeman. I asked him what he thought of the lashkars - he said that they are untouchable. They have high level political connections and when an overzelaous investigating officer was assasinated, everyone got the message and no one was ever caught.

The police lack political support at the top - they can do the job if they are made professional, properly resourced and trained - all the things that the Army has. In fact, they may be a whole lot better than the Army to do this job.

There is an element of truth to what Hasho says - the Army has deliberately starved other state organs, even foolishly so, so that it remains the ultimate arbiter. The Army is not a reliable ally in this fight.

You guys need to first put the Army in its place, and then go after the lashkars. Problem is - you have only 6 months left.

Major: What's GUBO?

chacha32 - have you been spanked by taliban yet?... you are talking to too many be-mehram males on internet...lol

Tahmed,
Obviously you had no response to what the army did in its three yrs stay in Swat.
I have no problem with politicians taking time to find a way to fight the taliban. I think the army control of the country will be worst than the Islamists take over of a small part of the country temporarily.
You don't wanna revisit the army nightmarish yrs ever again.

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Re: # 281 Pew

what use is a spine for a paki?... pakis are permanently hunched over in GUBO position.... they GUBO to whoever shows up with Gun, they GUBO to US, they GUBO to taliban.... all the while blaming it all on yahoods and hanoods... LOL

pewresearch: your valuable opinions are of no interest.

#280 HP: I agree the public should put pressure on the politicians too - but the public is complacent; the media talk shows have their heads in the sand, blaming the US for "angering" their "fellow muslim" taliban into taking over Pakistan. These fools will start worhipping even a donkey if it has the lavel "islam" on it; and will reject life-saving medicine with the label "US" on it. And the military itself is fooled by "Islam" (thanks to its poisoning by Zia).

Things have already gone way beyond the ability of the police (despite what you think) - you need heavy weapons, not a lathi and sidearms, to fight the taliban.

So, things dont look good. The good news is - ultimately the fool does the same thing as the wise man. The only question is - will the fools stop babbling about "US drones" and get their heads out of the sand before the taliban start kicking their butts in Islamabad itself.

Re: # 280 Hasho Tahmed

I don't know if you guys noticed, but you look like fellows who were arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic as it was going down.

I think that no option (not even the massive US aid package) will work until you guys develop some spine.

Yeah like the army routed the Islamists in Swat when it stayed there for three yrs.

Get over it, it is not the army and especially the Pak army's job to take care of the law and order. Put pressure on the politicians, don't run to the army to solve every problem or you gonna have a bigger problem on hands.

HP 278 that was tried in swat (using FC, police etc.). didnt work. the taliban have better weapons, better tactics, more motivated fighters than the paramilitaries.

and defending against foreign invasion and enforcing if necessary the writ of the civilian government is the reason for existence of the Pakistan military. only the military has the force needed to take out the taiban.

"and right now, unless the fauj is planning a major strike against the taliban, paksitan is getting ready to open the gates to the barbarians."
Tahmed,
I don't agree with this. Allowing army to operate in the settled areas of NWFP would amount to calling the army back to rule the country. Which is a worst nightmare than the few stupid misguided zealot with a few guns operating in a small part of the country. The politicians should handle this. Provide more guns to the FC, police and other lawenforcement. Arrange for tight security of the areas and support the locals that are fighting the militants.

You allow army to enter the scene through the back door and you end up another eight years of military rule.

The simple reason the Taliban are allowed to roam in the settled areas is to create an opportunity for the army to take over in the name of law and order.
It will take a little longer with the politicians but they are the ones to handle this not the army.

HP: only pakistanis can save pakistan. and only pakistanis can destroy pakistan.

and right now, unless the fauj is planning a major strike against the taliban, paksitan is getting ready to open the gates to the barbarians.

#274 that is fair enough.

"(outcome perfectly acceptable to me"

And who t f are you? Are you the world? There are handful of countries in the world that are bothered by what is going on in Pakistan. You can count them on fingers. One is India, US and a few countries under the US influence in western Europe. Who else is giving it a fk?

Self destruct or not that is the way Pakistanis deal with the issues what is your problem. Worry abt Bhokay nangay 700 million Indians. Idiot!

Re: # 273 Tahmed

It is simple:

Either (A) Pakistan reforms and emerges as a mature country (outcome perfectly acceptable to me = problems solved for the rest of the world), OR

(B) Pakistan proceeds on its current self-destructive path and implodes thereby no longer being a threat to anyone else (outcome perfectly acceptable to me = most, but not all, problems solved for the world)

While (A) is preferable to (B), both are acceptable if push comes to shove.

BTW, your earlier knee-jerk reaction reveals how even though after spending years on Chowk and 15,000+ posts later, you have failed to absorb some of the crucial subtleties.

So, now - are you going to write to your Congressman? I hope so.

Cheers

#272 I am all for putting an end to the taliban menace. And I all for this bill, along with the proposed additional conditions (i.e. access to the man who enriched himself by selling Pakistan's nuclear secrets, and elimination of all jehadi organizations).

I didnt read your post, and assumed that (in keeping with your past posts on chowk) you would be opposing the bill.

You Indians need to make up your minds - either you support a democratic Pakistan (rather than one ruled by some form of military-mullah autocracy), or you oppose it (and would rather see it destroyed by painting it as a terrorist state). Anyone reading chowk posts from Indians can see what you would like to see. So, why this change when it comes to writing letters to congressmen?

Re: # 271 Tahmed

Do you know who Howard Berman is (the author of the Bill)? Do you know that a similar version is under consideration in the Senate?

Do you disagree with the intention, 'it focuses on funding the core issues relating to genuinely helping Pakistan get out of the hole in which it finds itself – a jihadi onslaught, economic collapse and a broken education system'?

#270 and the US congress will ignore what makes sense for the US and the world and start the spites of a what a bunch of monkeys from India!! ha! ha!

As you know, Congressman Howard Berman (D-California), the chair of the House Foreign Affairs Committee has moved a bill named Pakistan Enduring Assistance Cooperation Enhancement (PEACE) act of 2009 - H.R. 1886.

It focuses on funding the core issues relating to genuinely helping Pakistan get out of the hole in which it finds itself – a jihadi onslaught, economic collapse and a broken education system – while holding strict accountability and monitoring requirements to ensure that the funds are used for their stated purposes.

So, this is your chance, as an American, to make your voice heard and make an impact in Washington on an issue that is close to our hearts. Please consider doing all, or at least some, of the following:

**relay this email out to all your friends, specially those who have been politically active over the past few election cycles, and therefore are in a position to influence their respective Congresspersons .

**take the time to write a letter to your Congressperson. Please scroll down for a sample letter.

THE GOAL IS TO HAVE A MINIMUM OF 50 CONGRESSPERSONS FROM ACROSS THE NATION TO PUT THEIR NAMES AS CO-SPONSORS OF THE BERMAN BILL.

Only if your Congressperson were to get enough letters from his/her constituents impressing upon him/her why this bill is a good one and needs his/her support, do we have a chance of reaching the goal.

Please do not discard this e-mail. A little effort on your part can make all the difference between us seeing this bill pass in its current form, or having it amended and altered into a toothless document.

Cheers.


Write your Congressional Representative

To co-sponsor "Pakistan Enduring Assistance Cooperation Enhancement Act" (PEACE) -- H. R. 1886 introduced by Congressman Howard Berman

To identify and contact your Representative, please click: https://writerep.house.gov:443/writerep/welcome.shtml

Dear Representative .......

My name is ....... and I am a resident of your congressional district. I am writing to you because there is a new bill that Congressman Howard Berman (D-California) has just introduced in the House and I would appreciate if you would co-sponsor this proposed legislation, for it has potentially far reaching geopolitical ramifications for the United States, Pakistan and our long term ability to win the campaign against terrorism.

The bill in question is the Pakistan Enduring Assistance Cooperation Enhancement Act of 2009 [or, the PEACE Act of 2009] -- H. R. 1886.

Today, it is common knowledge that the epicenter of global terrorism is Pakistan, and more specifically, its Northern and Western territories that abut Afghanistan and Iran. Based on preliminary numbers, it is also a fact that Pakistan is soon going to become the second largest recipient of United States aid, after Israel. Hence, it is imperative that our funding is done carefully, managed to appropriate metrics, monitored meticulously and appropriate feedback loops created to ensure that aid is tied to Pakistan delivering on its commitment.

The PEACE bill of 2009 (H. R. 1886) does precisely all of this. Here are some of the highlights of the proposed legislation:

The bill clearly directs Pakistan, “not to provide any support, direction, guidance to or acquiescence in the activities of any person or group that engages in any degree in acts of violence or intimidation against civilians, civilian groups or government entities.�

The proposed bill asks the United States to redouble its efforts to work with the Government of Pakistan through all appropriate means in establishing counter insurgency and counter terrorism strategies to prevent any territory of Pakistan from being used as a base or conduit for terrorist attacks in Pakistan, Afghanistan or elsewhere.

With reference to the involvement of the military and intelligence agency in supporting terrorist activities, the bill demands Pakistan cease support to extremists and terrorist groups, particularly to any group that has conducted attacks against United States or Coalition forces in Afghanistan or against the territory of India or the people of India.

In a section entitled Sense of Congress, the bill states that the conditions in Pakistan will only be improved through regional coordination and cooperation, and long term security in Pakistan depends on strengthening regional relationships among India, Pakistan, and Afghanistan.

It recommends increasing oversight of educational curricula in schools, including Madrasas, and states that these religious schools not be used to incite terrorism. It further demands the closing of Madrasas found to have links to terrorists.

Congressman Berman’s Bill also deals with the sale of nuclear technology reportedly by Mr. A.Q. Khan of Pakistan. It states that Pakistan provide access to United States investigators to individuals suspected of engaging in worldwide proliferation of nuclear material. It asks Pakistan to restrict such individuals from travel or any other activity that could result in further proliferation. Pakistan has refused to investigate the activities of Khan and has recently released him from house arrest.

The proposal by Berman demands complete transparency and accountability of the aid given to Pakistan. It requires a report from the Comptroller General to Congressional Committees evaluating the effectiveness of security assistance provided to Pakistan and asks for a detailed description of the expenditures made by Pakistan.

This is the first time that the United States, which has given over $10 billion in aid to Pakistan, has attached conditions of accountability and transparency to future aid and has directed Pakistan to dismantle all terrorist training camps on its territory. With this bill, we finally have an opportunity to methodically work on reducing the risk of a future attack on American soil and American interests worldwide by working with the Pakistanis on dismantling the very nerve center of global jihadi terrorism.

Hence, as my representative, I would implore you to consider becoming a co-sponsor of this bill, which would go a long way in ensuring its passage through the House.

Respectfully,
your nane

nkg: wrong. all i see is indian chattering about pakistan below. i dont see any pakistanis chatering about india. no amount of bakwas from you can change that.

bjkumar: why dont you tell me why you disagree with my assessment of your stinking indian countrymen below, rather than putting up red flags? or is truth too hard to handle??

Re: # 266
beduin32...
nop...it is usual rotten camel sh**...

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Hasho: #262 I agree with you. The people of NWFP elected ANP, and it is this elected provincial government that is pressing the federal government to compromise with the taliban.

However, democracy does not stop here. It provides checks and balances against the "tyranny of the majority". The ANP government failed to protect the basic rights of the individual, and failed to take any action against the oppressors.

That individual may be that one poor girl whose brutalizing before a crowd of beghairats was witnessed by the video camera. Or it may be Adam Khan who choses not to condone the brutal actions of the Taliban, but is helpless - there being no Hyde Park in Peshawar. The federal government has a duty to step in.

So far, to his great credit, only the Chief Justice seems to understand this in Pakistan.

Re: # 241
bull...
when Richard Armitage threatened Mush, was there any option left for Pakistan?
US is permanent member of UNSC and nobody dares to take action against USA...now, US pampered Pakistan too much....If they had taken unilateral military action, US would have lost very little...but there would not have anything left called Pakistan....

There is a saying in Bengali...

Don't pamper a dog too much, such that it tries to sit on your head....

Re: # 210
dm...
yeh, valid point...but somehow, these 16 mahajanapadas survived for long time....During the the war of Kurukshetra, a lot of smaller kings from neighbouring regions partcipated in the greatwar (maharon)....At least the mighty Kauravas could have swallowed them, much before the Kurukshetra war....

#231 Adam Khan
NWFP crying out for justice and finally taking a stand in Swat,
What stand has the NWFP taken in Swat?

Adam Khan
The stand clearly is against the establishment. Unfortunately, ANP lacked the political will to support the people and left the field open for the Islamist. The Islamists control of Swat in NWFP is deplorable but when the legitimate political parties decide to cut the deals instead of going to the people, someone else fills the vacuum. Right now the Islamist have filled the vacuum but not for long. The struggle to take the initiative back from the Islamist has begun but it will take its time before people are able to overcome the lax and opportunistic approach of ANP that practically threw the people to the wolves.

Re: # 257

Arjun:

"...masadi...santayana said those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

OTOH, those who are overly obsessed with history are guaranteed to have no future..."

Very beautifully put.

What do you have to say Masadi sahib?

Re: # 254

Arjun:

I do not know much about Islam.

My issue is the hypocracy of Masadi, the state of mind that it reflects. This state of mind is present in all belief systems.

Masadi:

There is a saying "water over ducks feather". Stay with your intellectual honesty.

You are on record here to acknowledge presence of elite in Islamic society, but you refused to denounce it as much as you do in among the others. Why don't you denounce that too, or it truly is my baloney is not baloney?

When will you produce proof positive evidence of God that you claim you have?

Bring your ego in line with your abilities and get over it.

masadi...santayana said those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

OTOH, those who are overly obsessed with history are guaranteed to have no future...

#255 Posted by masadi on April 11, 2009 4:22:14 pm

why don't you post it as an ilog and see how many hits you get...after all, the awesome power of your writing should help you get over little hindrances like chowk staff refusing to post your article the front page..

fwiw..as much as i disagree with you, I think your article will be much better than most of the crap on fp that can be summarized as "woe is pakiland..we're innocent victims...jihadis(who we had absolutely no hand in creating) are going to flog us..bad india..bad US.."

Anil my article was not written for those lost in history or those that are functionally illiterate. Since you belong to both categories please don't bother reading that article when/if it gets published.

TNITC masadi

#252 Posted by anil on April 11, 2009 4:17:23 pm

now he'll accuse you of islam bashing...anything less than obsequious characterization of islam is islam-bashing..

#250 Posted by masadi on April 11, 2009 3:45:42 pm

I'm not into that kind of thing..anywhoo...i'm busy writing an iphone app for a government client in my spare time....i don't get much time to read..I do read james bamford...he usually releases a book every 2-3 years...

Re: # 244

Masadi Mian:

"Who are the Power Elite?"

I hope you had the honesty and integrity to include "the power elite" in Islam too. This will most certainly include everyone from Muhammad down. Can you be that courageous, I doubt it.

To you, your baloney (power elite) is not baloney (power elite). Isn't that bigotry then what it is?

Bulleya:

“......the day that happens, it will become nearly impossible for the usa to get any pakistani leader to do its bidding in Afghanistan.....�

Why do you think it is so important for America to do its bidding in Afghanistan? America’s shorter term interest in Afghanistan was to get OBL and destroy AQ, so that it cannot attack America and western interests. Now, its short term interest is to get itself out of there. It will try doing so either by investing in Pakistan or investing to develop a chaotic buffer and maintaining it. A healthy economy and democratic government in Pakistan is the best bet. Free and fair elections have proven that however defective it may, just as in case of India, democratic government in Pakistan can never be in Islamic Terror business.

It is not “aid� of yesteryears, but investments is how Pakistan needs to look, after all it is now talking of $30 billion Marshall Plan for it. Therefore, “I don’t think anyone in Pakistan is interested in “aid�� is an honest statement. Need transcends, even Masadi Mian needs it. For a long time, this has been the case with us humans. I suppose when the first currency was put, and first surplus was generated. If you are saying that Mehsud is not attacked by America, and if I understood your statement correctly, then I would say that even he needs “aid. This clearly is the example for I have been saying that American money will go in more hands than just the military or civilian government, because someone has to create chaotic buffer also.

If America has huge problems in Afghanistan, then don’t you think you are over analyzing it as a Pakistan? Need for troops is shorter term, much as need to be present in there is short term. What replaces it is more important. If the state of affairs in Pakistan remains as it is then exit would be through chaotic buffer.

“It was able to get Zardari in driver seat�, is systemic weakness in Pakistan that I am pointing. Earlier “it was able to get a general installed�, who knows tomorrow, it = Taliban. Then it would said that “it was able to install Mehsud�. Pakistan is unable to act, or respond according to the will of its people. Why, if it is not for the systemic problem that makes it depressed and frustrated?

Arjun: the other one they stock is "White Collar"- both penned over 50 years back but still extremely relevant. Buy them both, give chowk a rest and do some reading this summer.

TNITC masadi

Bulleya:

“…if Pakistan continues to cling onto the Americans, i think it is doomed......Taliban will take over much of it......if it cuts ties, it may have major macro-economic problems in the short term (assuming china does not bail it out), but its long term outlook will be much better.......�

Even the above statement has “blame outsideness�, as if Pakistan is outside and “Taliban (another outsider) will take over…� Whether Pakistani Army takes over, it is from the within; if Taliban takes over, it is from the within; or if Americans are there, it too has support from within (I know you would not like this last part). If LeT is there it is also from within, whatever the reasons or explanations. Even reasons and explanations are Pakistani. It is Pakistan that is making it possible, whether there is some grass root level support, or mid level support, or at top level support.

Therefore, the blame is to outsider, and then you say that “assuming china does not bail out�. This bailout is outsider too. This is my core point; it is “outsider� whichever way you look at it. But why? About time, Pakistan owns its destiny. Vietnam was more devastated after the war, America deliberately stayed out, Europeans stayed out, and Chinese fought a war with Vietnam. Look where Vietnam is is today, all on its own.

#245 Posted by masadi on April 11, 2009 2:16:04 pm

masadi..i was at barnes and noble and saw mills' "the power elite" on a shelf somewhere...there was some other book by mills..can't recall the name..

Bulleya:

It is everybody's fault but yours. It is USA/India's fault that your country chose to fight the Afghan war. It is India's fault that your country propped up and supported the Taliban. It is my fault that the Palestinian's rejected the original UN Palestine Partition Plan. It is my fault that you suffer from dementia.

Get the drift?

or whether...

I have submitted an article to chowk staff titled "Who are the Power Elite?"

If they censor it they will again rob you of information that is not only very relevant to understanding your world, it is your right to access such info. Let us see how much concern they have for members of whether they are going to spit in your face like they have in the past.

TNITC masadi

Chowk staff removed my posts that were a slam dunk victory over the BS of this article, they were no doubt pressured by Shandana who when defeated resorts to censorship, as does YLH and the rest of the thugs that roam these streets...

TNITC masadi

#241 Posted by bulleya on April 11, 2009 12:32:29 pm


......if pakistan stops usa's logistics and stops patrolling the border, i think the game is over for the usa.


you've told us an IT company can't survive without paki management skills...why don't you pakis organize a mass boycott of the IT industry..without your managerial talent, the whole US IT industry will collapse...

that should teach the US a lesson...

anil #: "With a determination of 1,000 years of eating grass. The above is not impossible, and never was. There is something systemic that now hated Americans reached inside and into neighbors. Please think about it."

regarding your point on there being systemic about americans reaching into pakistan, and getting what they want.......you are correct....the reason is lack of an established democracy in the country.....

.....i don't know of any country in the world, where another country is so hated, i.e. usa......yet the later's leadership has so much influence in the first country.....if there was a clear vote on cutting ties with the usa, today, i can make a bet it would be well over 90% in favor........

if pakistan continues to cling onto the americans, i think it is doomed......taliban will take over much of it......if it cuts ties, it may have major macro-economic problems in the short term (assuming china does not bail it out), but its long term outlook will be much better.......

there is huge amounts of public pressure on the govt. to cut ties with the usa.......let's see what happens, and whether this public pressure turns into a wave, like that for the judiciary.....

....having said that, i think the afghan war may be much more complicated than imagined......there is talk of why the usa strikes everywhere, but rarely in waziristan - the hq of taliban.......and never targets baitullah mehsud.....

anil #: "America has already committed $8 or $9 billion, why not show performance with it and then go for more, if necessary."

...i don't think anyone in pakistan is interested in the aid......this is why the usa is quite apprehensive of true democracy taking root in pakistan......the day that happens, it will become nearly impossible for the usa to get any pakistani leader to do its bidding in afghanistan.....

......usa faces a huge problem in afghanistan....it has lost in iraq, and is about to lose in afghanistan......hillary clinton has offered talks to taliban which mullah umar has rejected!!......imagine.......

......the usa, desparately, needs troops in afghanistan.....it is unwilling to stop anyone from afghanistan crossing into pakistan.....even though as the occuppier of afghanistan, it has the responsibility of contorlling the borders......people crossing from afghanistan into pakistan have caused large problems for pakistan.......

......the usa was able to control musharraf and get him to do the dirty work on the afghanistan border......this has caused heavy damage to the pakistan society; much like being a usa ally in the first afghan war.....

.....it was able to get zardari in the driver's seat as well......and he was ready to do the us bidding also.....however, he is also out now.......there is, really, no one else left who can do the usa's bidding......

......if pakistan stops usa's logistics and stops patrolling the border, i think the game is over for the usa......in afghanistan......no other country is going to keep their troops there......there are only two countries fighting in this war......usa and pakistan.......with pakistan losing most of the troops.....

.....the general consensus amongst pakistanis, overwhelmingly, is that the usa has no intention to help pakistan.....in surveys it is considered a bigger threat than india......it is, now, quite hated in pakistan and afghanistan......

.....the public pressure is mounting on the current ppp govt. to cut ties with the usa......as this alliance is considered the cause of the suicide bombings and rise of taliban in pakistan......there were no taliban or suicide bombings prior to this afghan war in pakistan......

......the aid you have mentioned never reaches the common person......so he is least bothered.....pakistan loses out much more due to its alliance with the usa........if the resultant violence subsides, after cutting ties with the usa, arabs and china will invest much more than any usa aid.....

...the govt., of course, and the army, want the aid, as it benefits them the most.....however, now it will become more and more difficult for them to stand against public pressure.......

......unfortunately, pakistan's macro economic situation is such that it is stuck with loans to stablize its economy......however, if it is able to transition from dumping the usa and moving towards other options, while simultaneously keeping its macro economic situation stable, it should be fine.....perhaps china can assist in the short term.....

i think most americans are in a state of denial.....about afghanistan and iraq and the impact it has had on their nation.....as well as how unpopular they are in this region......even us embassy staff here are clueless.....

........there will be a wave of anti-usa sentiment in the near future......let's see what impact it has on the ppp govt.....

as i said earlier, pakistanis want the usa out and the taliban out....they want them to fight their battles in afghanistan.......not in pakistan.....

the public has generally been correct, in pakistan.....it didn't want pakistan to join the usa in the first afghan war, and train the jihadis.....and it didn't want pakistan to join the usa in the second afghan war and bomb the jihadis......

........pakistan is an interesting test case.....it is a muslim country, with a huge population and nuclear deterence and good human resource base, which is moving towards genuine democracy.....if it reaches it (before it self-destructs), it will be a big headache for the usa.....as the people are extremely anti-usa from all ranges of the spectrum......

iran is another muslim country, moving in the same direction......though no nuclear weapon, but a more stable system with oil......

if both these countries become established democracies, then i think the usa's strategy in the region will have to change......which is why i think this whole talk of promoting democracy is an eyewash......having a democratic region would go against us interests as the populations are very anti-usa in pakistan, iran and afghanistan.....

Re: # 238

Bulleya:

"......pakistanis, simply want americans to leave them alone......"

With a determination of 1,000 years of eating grass. The above is not impossible, and never was. There is something systemic that now hated Americans reached inside and into neighbors. Please think about it.

Bulleya:

If outsiders are to be blamed, then why insiders don't let them in. After all a famous Pakistan said they would eat grass for 1,000 years if need be to get bomb. What more of the resolve in needed. With that determination, even Bhagwan or Jesus cannot enter or remain.

If there was no love for this tumor then there was no need for strategic depth, and develop "civilian precursors" to inflict 1,000 cuts etc; and self convince a need for it. Did you not shared a roadmap here, where once things are put in order, this tumor would be unleashed in Kashmir again?

Would you disagree that all the talent and resources could have been deployed to become Korea of middle east?

Afterall, even according to you, there was a brief Ayub period of economic success. Can you imagine if that had continued, what Pakistan would be like today?

Is it not possible for a terminally ill patient to fall in love with the cancerous tumor to see prominent surgeon and beautiful nurses? Please do not be so certain in depression and frustration response can be often unusual.

Is this disease that Pakistan has not systemic?

anil #: "Somehow I think, Pakistan enjoys this dramabaazi of now Pakistani Tabilan, almost as if, the cancer patient has fallen in love with his tumor, because it gets attention of the finest surgeon on the block."

....quite a sickening comment.....americans are getting sicker by the day......including expat americans.....

it is quite legitimate for pakistanis to blame usa for the afghan problem.....both during first and second afghan war......pakistanis, simply want americans to leave them alone......

tahmed:

"(the first thing hindus - even educated ones like Dost Mittar - do when a muslim tries to say what you said above is to pick certain selected verses from the Quran as "proof"."

I rarely quote from the Quran; in any case any quotation from any book has to be selective, the important thing is that the quotation should not be out of the context or misleading.

#226 Posted by tahmed32

" i dont doubt it. After all, you were Made in India and cant help being communal"

Let us have it straight. Communalism started in India when islam raised its head in India. The Government and the politicians of India by playing votebank politics blindly supported the policy of appeasing the muslims, without realising that this creed would kill its own father to access the throne.

RSS, vhp etc came into existence only to balance this anomaly.

it does not enters into tahmed's head that the so called crimes against females in India does not have the sanction of religion nor does the government supports it whereas in muslim countries, all the crimes against women are committed in the name of that black book.

In this context, the 'peace proposal' of tahmed in #224 is ridiculous and naive

Re: # 221

Hasho:

It is not about “mad or outraged population�. It is about that Pakistan has been pregnant with it for so long and not yet delivered it. It is the depression and frustration of that of the couple who have been at it for so long but not able to deliver it. This inability is systemic and that is what prevents delivery from this pregnancy. It is systemic because Pakistan Army or civilian leaders are not outsiders. Due to the systemic issues, this blame game to blame outsiders has gone on for too long that Pakistani awam (pregnant couple) are unable to see the systemic nature of the problem. This is almost as predictable as a scripted dialog in a C grade bollywood movie. No one comes to help out of goodness of the heart alone, really no one. So why would someone accept first and abuse later. This is a behavioral issue, symptomatic and not the diagnosis of the disease and root causes of the disease. The disease is depression and frustration, and root causes are not even known. No one probably cares to know.

Now, the next hawai qila is $30 billion Marshall Plan. It is beyond my belief at least, does Pakistan now want to put Taliban gun to its temple, and say $30 billion Marshall Plan or shoot itself. America has already committed $8 or $9 billion, why not show performance with it and then go for more, if necessary. Somehow I think, Pakistan enjoys this dramabaazi of now Pakistani Tabilan, almost as if, the cancer patient has fallen in love with his tumor, because it gets attention of the finest surgeon on the block.

Adam, Tahmed, BJ,
I have to go but will come back and respond to all the posts.

Re: # 232

No, your blood-drinking habits (if any) or the "merit" of arguments (again, if any) are not the issue. I redflagged those posts of yours which I thought were in bad taste.

bjkumar #229 great job, kumar sahib. a red flag is not an argument though. what exactly do you disagree with?? (excuse me if i dont respond right away, but i have to go and drink some blood which as you know we muslims need as an essential part of our diet).

Hasho:

NWFP crying out for justice and finally taking a stand in Swat,

What stand has the NWFP taken in Swat?

Re: # 222

Tahmed sahib:

Until the majority of believers share you view that jahaliyat is the problem, this will remain a challenge for you and believers like you.

You may attack non-believers all you may wish, but real change will come when you and believers like you can become the catalyst and help other believers transition to your thinking is made among the believers. All transformations are difficult.

This one among the believers is more difficult, because it is happening in modern times, when people, not just hindus, in rest of the world can find out about lashings of a 17 year old in matter of minutes. The attention to it, does not mean there are no problems elsewhere.

This is a reality, Tahmed sahib.

Re: # 227

Tauheed sahib, since you agree with me, I am absolutely sure you will understand my logic and rationale for redflagging all those dumbass statements you made down below. :)

#226. I forgot that a former citizen of a state based on a religion, founded in blood, and focussing on the otherness of the religion and victimhood of followers of that religion can't be communal, of course.

#223 bjkumar: agreed with you. I just wrote something along these lines to HP as well.

#224 i dont doubt it. After all, you were Made in India and cant help being communal.

Hasho: The Taliban onslaught on Pakistan is nothing short of an invastion. Painting this invasion as a popular revolution is doing a disservice to Pakistan. And too many Pakistanis, too cowardly or too confused by their "muslim" mask to acknowledge the obvious, have only made matters worse by delaying a full scale military response from Pakistan.

Only now, with the wolves cutting a direct path towards Islamabad, are Pakistanis beginning to face up to this fact. And when the government realizes it has no choice except to start hitting back without hold back punches, there will be far more bloodshed than if Pakistanis had not allowed themselves to be fooled.

"Then you should remember this next time you feel the urge to join in the bad habits of the hindu brigade on chowk in berating my religion too."
I certainly will, if it's something that your religion says is ok.

Re: # 221

Hasho, the real fight in Pakistan is not so much among regional leaders on regional issues but between the forces of Wahhabiism and the Sufi way of living. Current evidence is that the agents of the former are winning and from my limited understanding, they have been doing so since the mid-1940’s, thanks to the role of Jinnah and his cohorts. There is no real evidence of the massive grass-root uprising you refer to (except perhaps in the Drawing rooms of some educated elites) although it sounds romantic and would be nice to have.

nb #219 "There is nothing in Hindu religious texts which enjoins you to terminate girls, or even says it is all right. "

Then you should remember this next time you feel the urge to join in the bad habits of the hindu brigade on chowk in berating my religion too. Too many hindus (and even muslims who were raised in jahil environments like hamidm and confuse their parents' jehaliyat with islam) are only too happy to claim that Islam - not jehaliyat - is the problem.

And lets not get into this talk about what the scriptures say (the first thing hindus - even educated ones like Dost Mittar - do when a muslim tries to say what you said above is to pick certain selected verses from the Quran as "proof". mahabharata (from what little i know about it) is centered around a battle. not around a peaceful demonstration, or pious discussions.

Shandana’ s article just follows the emerging trend in Pakistan. A mad and outraged population looking for some major changes in the society and the way Pakistan is governed. All four provinces are on record in showing their extreme annoyance in different ways-Punjabi taking to the streets over the Judges issue twice in less than two years, Sindh going berserk over Benazir’s murder, NWFP crying out for justice and finally taking a stand in Swat, and Now Baluchistan stepping out and protesting the murders of the Baloch leaders.

Finally, after sixty years of divide and rule by the army and its henchmen, Pakistanis are uniting over the issues that matter to the people. A country nears the revolution when the Middle class and the lower classes of the society agree on many issues and finally take on the establishment. We have reached that point in Pakistan. However, a centralized leadership that can tap on the public anger is still not there in Pakistan.

The army and the civil Bureaucracy were able to successfully pigeonhole leaders as Bengalis, Sindhi, Balochi, Punjabi and Pathan. Mujib was never accepted as the leader of Pakistan. He was always portrayed as the leader of Bengal. Bhutto was projected as a Sindhi leader even though he enjoyed support in every part of Pakistan, except Baluchistan. Benazir never was accorded a national leader status and now we clearly see establishment voices that are projecting Nawaz a Punjabi leader vs. a Sindhi leader Zardari.

The Judges issue united all Pakistanis. The pressure on Zardari to not accept the judges hurt him politically but the good part is that it united people even more. The struggle for the democracy was galvanized by the heroic struggle over the judges’ restoration movement. Now the weakest link in the Pakistani establishment-the judiciary- is leading the Pakistani middle class and empowering the people to stand up against the injustice. The Judges or the Supreme Court will not solve all the problems but they provide the first instance in Pakistan’s history when people actually forced the state, the interested International powers, the Army and the bureaucracy to bend and accept the people’s demand.

The first Pakistani revolution in 1971 was destroyed by the Pak army supported by the Indian army. Now People of Pakistan are ready to take on the Pakistan army, now unsupported by an Indian army which stepped in Bengal to save the Pakistan army from complete annihilation at the hands of Pakistani citizens and created another country, destroying the most powerful movement for democracy in Pakistan.

It is obvious that the people are mad and they are ready to take on the state institutions bare handed. The revolution may turn ugly, bloody, and messy but that is how revolutions take shape.

The Pakistani establishment thinks that the US and India would interfere to save them from the ignominy of defeat by the poor Pakistanis but let’s not forget that no power in the world can stand up to the desperate poor folks.

When you only have chains to lose, no bribery, threats or intimidation can stop people from fighting on.

Re: # 219 nb

Tahmed just took a cheap shot at you and succumbed.

The NY Times had an article yesterday that China has an excess of boys by 32 million (world's largest disparity) due to female infanticide. Of course, this has nothing to do with Communist ideology just as the fact female infanticide's prevalence with Muslims as well as Hindus in India has nothing to do with their respective religions.

You may want to mention to him that while gender-determination tests in India are illegal, honor-killings of women and public lashings in Pakistan have the full weight of the law behind them.

Enough said.

Tahmed, my parents are religious Hindus. There is nothing in Hindu religious texts which enjoins you to terminate girls, or even says it is all right. The texts are quite clear that abortion itself is a sin. I don't agree, unwanted children should not be born.There is nothing in religious texts which says women should be burnt for dowry or that dowry must be given. OTOH, if you ask the Taliban, they will tell you that the Hadiths and the Koran support flogging for women.
Anyway, the selective termination of pregnancies occurs mostly among your fellow Punjabis (and surrounding areas), so talk to them about it. Indian Muslims do not have a sex ratio significantly different from Hindus (940 as against 935 females for every thousand males, the ratio for Christians is over 1020:1000), so something's happening there too.

Does any one has ideas why Holbrooke goes to India? It's not like India is local Godfather that needs to be kept updated or that financing or troops are needed from India.

My guess will be it's getting India's input on how to motivate Pakistan to look after it's own interests by going after Jihadis and/or do some reform work. US perhaps believes that Indians being closer to Pakistani mind might have some better ideas.

Yes, we're a tiny minority!

nb: and you avoided a dowry death too!! that speaks well of your husband (speaking in the context of india, of course).

#214 nb: your fetus managed to survive!! your parents must be moderate hindus. :-)

#212, Yes, Tahmed, this is actually my ghost!

#212 that's right. taliban beat women. pious hindus merely kill them - in the fetus, in the kitchen, and (until the brits put an end to it) on funeral pyres.

Re: # 196
Pmishra2...
"And its a bit annoying to hear the usual bakwaas about how islam saved the world from darkness..."

How can a cult that preached violence against the mankind and dishonouring of captive women show any semblance of light to the world? You must be joking!!

#207 Posted by nkg
"Somehow, Ashoka violated that rule ( some people claim)...."

Ashoka did not really break the rule. Every citizen of Kalinga came to the battlefied in the garb of a soldier, wielding weapons. Obviously all is fair in war in such a situation.

#210 Posted by dost_mittar

"..then what were Ashwamedha Yagnas all about? "

Ashwamedha was not about annexing the kingdom. It was only a process of establishing the fact that the concerned king did not face any challenge to his invincible power. Whoever did not stop the horse and paid respect to the army following the horse were not caused any loss. When Lord Rama performed ashwamedha, other states did not merge into Ayodhya.

This is not comparable to the muslim plunderer's policy of looting the vanquished land and taking civilians as slaves, (which even the prophet did.)

nkg:

"pre-Ashoka period, India was collection of 16 or more states and nobody tried to integrate it into large empire"

..then what were Ashwamedha Yagnas all about?

shandana, i just wanted to mention i've left a comment on an older story you wrote, "Nipa Chowrangi". please check back to read it. i enjoy reading your work.

Re: # 196
Pmishra2...
"And its a bit annoying to hear the usual bakwaas about how islam saved the world from darkness..."
Hey, who claims such stuff? We need to put that piece in zoo...

Re: # 186
sattar...
pre-Ashoka period, India was collection of 16 or more states and nobody tried to integrate it into large empire....even the story of Ramayana and Mahabharata tells, when the opponent loose in the war, the victor used to appoint some of the relatives of the vanquished to the throne, and came back...Ram had not put his brother in the throne of Lanka, neither he tried to expand the kingdom of Ayodhya to bigger one....So, the status quo used to be maintained...furthermore, Indian rule of law used to restrict armed forces to attack and kill similar force ( cavalry vs cavalry, rathi ( those who fight riding chariot) vs rathi... and it was strictly prohibited to touch the civilians)....Somehow, Ashoka violated that rule ( some people claim)....so all the digging down and to find Seleucus's sister might have brought some gene which resulted in such behaviour from Ashoka the Great....

Re: # 205 pew

the following statement was interesting:

There aren't many countries in world where you feel like you feel in america or europe... and india is one of them...

apparently india "Feels" like america to americans themselves, railroad tracks and slumdogs notwithstanding...

so yeah, we cannot thank jinnah enough for this... he made this happen... j-man jindabad... LOL

Jinnah Zindabad! Pakistan Paindubad!

Eat your hearts out!

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/postglobal/david_ignatius/2009/04/ind ia s_promising_momentum_davi.html?hpid=talkbox1

Re: # 198

no sir, half of your pathan dna is solving the other half of your punjoo dna.

hamidm: i thought you were attempting polygamous relationships with the stepford wives. glad you found the time to save capitalism in the meantime as well (masadi will never forgive you for this, you running dog of the capitalist pigs!)

nkg #201 see..i told you you hang out with pakis you will actually stop sizzling like a kebab at muslas and actually start attempting some humor...

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

shandana minhas has no grasp on facts,
she writes that taliban were doing ethnic cleansing, hanging ppl from lamp posts etc, assaulting girls.. i wonder where ppl get these reports.
as a good reporter or writer one must have their facts extremely straight and not fall to personal whims and desires or what one hears on the tele.
the taliban era was a golden era in afghanistan and every man and woman in afghanistan will testify to it... peace prevailed, crime rate was 0 and a ideal muslim society was taking shape.
this is what instilled fear in the west and jews and they realized that if the muslims go back to their original system i.e living in accordance to quarn and sunnah they will have no future in the middle east or anywhere.
so they decided to make these stories and attack them... sadly muslims fall for their lies rather then look at facts and help their muslim brothers.
if the west and ms. minhas is so concerned about human rights and girls being assaulted and bodies being hanged to lampposts maybe her next article should be against israel where all this is happening now and its in record.

Terror scorecard of first 100 days

Saturday, April 11, 2009

By Amir Mir

LAHORE: The ongoing spate of suicide bombings across the country has killed 332 people in 20 deadly attacks, which were carried out in the first 100 days of 2009 (between January 1 and April 10).

Of those killed, 30 belonged to security forces, while the rest of the 302 victims were innocent civilians. Data compiled by authorities showed that suicide bombers struck 20 times in the first 100 days of 2009 in various parts of Pakistan and killed at an average of 83 people per month. While the per-week average killing comes to 24. The daily average casualty rate stands at three. Of the 30 security forces personnel killed since January 1, 18 belonged to the Army and the Frontier Constabulary (FC), while 12 were policemen.

The number of those who had sustained injuries due to the suicide attacks in the first 100 days of 2009 comes to 421, most of whom were civilians, the data showed. The figures compiled by the authorities showed that the suicide bombers struck four times in January 2009, killing 21 people and injuring 52.

The month of February saw seven suicide attacks, leaving 118 people dead and 158 injured. Six suicide bombers blew themselves up in March, killing 130 people and injuring 147. The deadliest suicide attack of 2009 was carried out on March 27 at a mosque on the Peshawar-Torkham Highway in the Jamrud subdivision of Khyber Agency during the Friday congregation, which killed 85 people, including over a dozen security forces personnel.

yaaaaaawn !

.... i come back afeter a whole week of trying to save capitalism and the free market economy and this is what you guys have to offer ???? .........

.....has tahmed solved the taliban problem ?

Re: # 164

[the entire purpose of my writing to date having been making myself popular.]

I was wondering whatever happened to the "old" Shandana. Now we all know that she is still lurking around -- trying hard to remain inconspicuous.

Not so easy, is it?! :)

Thanks again for the witty line(s)! Much appreciated.

(It is difficult to come across a good laugh now-a-days!)

dost mittar - I am very much aware of Akbar's declaration - it is just startling to note how clearly indian multi-culturalism was summarized by Ashoka 2400 years ago. And its a bit annoying to hear the usual bakwaas about how islam saved the world from darkness.

I am not sure what Tahmeds issue is - maybe he has some personal thang with greek women (or is it boys?).

nb yar damascus, baghdad were part of cradle of civilization..islamic imperialism brought a new stimulus.

pmishra2#175:

In fairness, one should add that the Mughal emperor Akbar also made a similar promulgation, although his action was strongly disapproved by Muslim clergy.

nb:

"I'm now beginning to think that pre-Islamic Arabia was probably not quite as jaahil as it is made out to be either."

You are quite right. The Prophet's employer and first wife, Khadeeja, was the owner of a successful trading company. Any society where a woman could be an employer and marry someone a lot younger than herself could not have been all that backward.

sattar:

"I am still struggling with relevance of the greek chick to the larger issue …"

I had raised the same question myself. Look, Kalinga battle is a watershed in Indian history as it turned Ashoka from a run-of-the-mill king to a Buddhist and made it his mission to spread the message of Buddha in India and abroad. As for wars, Indics were no stranger to it and indeed two of the favourite Indian epics, Ramayana and Mahabharata, are all about extolling the virtues of a virtuous war, though not in the name of sprading one's faith (neither was the Kalinga war on that account).

As for Chandragupta's claimed marriage to Seleucus's daughter, it is nothing more than a footnote in the Indian history.

tahmed,

I hate to interrupt your intellectual pursuit … but the evidence of the greek-hindu wedding may be as flimsy as that of an angel talking to an arab in a cave. It may be part hearsay, part embellishment … and those who have been told to believe, continue to believe. I hope that settles it …

What is the relevance of this greek wedding, anyway …?

#189 Next question: How many Indians does it take to answer every question on earth other than the one that was asked?

So...I am still awaiting enlightenment, being an islamo-fascist bedunoid old man paki who is incapable of creating facts as needed like the savants on chowk. So: on what basis are you saying that it is a "fact" that Chandragupta was married to Zorba the Greek's daughter? and no, just saying some historian has something about it in a book is not enough, nor is quoting from something from a Stupa that has the word "greek" on it with reference to a different subject - what did that historian actually write!

Come on Indian jawans and ladies...you can do it. It just needs enough of you to say so, and the lightbulb will screw itself in all by itself!!

Shandana Minhas: "how many Pakistanis does it take to change a light bulb? One hundred and seventy million and counting…"

Is it really that simple, like changing a light bulb? If it is, isn't it better for you to "change the light bulb" rather than write a long article. As is often said, it's better to light a candle than curse darkness.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

sattar this shows how irrelevant lashes are to folks here

Taahir ji .... now that the references to jinns and demons has been quoted .... aap ..


Chup chup baithe ho ... zaroor koi baat hai ...
Kya yahi pehli mulaqat hai??

DM, others,

I am still struggling with relevance of the greek chick to the larger issue …

- Initially, muslim rulers were being criticized for atrocities

- Then someone tried to balance the issue by mentioning that hindu rulers were not much better either … that ashoka's wars resulted in 100ks killed before he realized the futility of it all

- Then someone mentioned a hindu-greek wedding, which has become the focal point here …

I fail to see the relevance. Am I missing something … or is this just another case of intellectual self-fondling …??

#139 Posted by tahmed32

"Alexander may have heard of him -but unfortunately he had to turn back because the Pakistanis of Multan put a stop to his conquering and sent Alexander packing with an Made in Multan arrow."

#108 Posted by iron_mask

iron_mask! where are you? How dare you say this fellow does not remember anything prior to 1500 AD? See this! Pakistanis and Multan existed in 3rd century BC! Learn some history. Join some madrassa in Pakiland or atleast find out if they teach history through postal correspondence course!!

Re: # 177
beginning to think that pre-Islamic Arabia was probably not quite as jaahil

Of course ... it was pretty normal society ....

If I kill someone, the best way to justify is that he was evil incarnate .... What do you think they would write .... that pre-Islamic society was good ??

History also has that Kalingas shielded on of the conspirator princes of Magadh who plotted to kill Asoka and refused to hand him over to Magadhs, even at the peril of a ghastly war.

#101 Posted by nb on April 9, 2009

nb, congrats on having hit the nail on the head. At least this would help retain the spirit of discussion.

bj, the casualty figures doled out by you might be correct. But you did not convince ajeya and things seemed to go awry when ajeya tended to lose his cool.

Death in Kaling war was high because every citizen of Kaling, irrespective of age and sex, fired with the zeal of patriotism, wielded weapons against Asoka's army. They ceased to fit into the definition of civilians, and got killed by the charged army.

This is not the right case to be compared with the mindless killings by the muslim marauders who did not care whether they were killing/raping women or children.

Did you hear BABA RAMDEV? 'kroor' and 'bahadur' do not convey the same meaning.

Re: # 179 jang:peace and happy passover..cristos is born

sorry Jang - cristos is not born - but reborn - resurrected

get it right (T)

The Time has come, the Walrus said, to talk of many things
Of shoes and ships and sealing wax, of cabbages and Kings.


an Encore of an ODE to Shaikh Chilli


Shaikh Chilli and Tees Maar Khan
On a Dog Day Afternoon..near Choontianwala Chowk
-----------------------------------------------------------

On a dog day afternoon Shaikh Chilli and Tees Maar Khan were sitting under a peepul tree and were quite exhausted and bored. They had already given up hand-whisking the fat flies from each others faces ..flies that were heavy laden with grub in the still humid air.

Then Tees maar Khan, the man of action and adventure could not stand it any more. He , with some trepidition, suggested something in a kind of low whisper to the Shaikh Chilli..which, given the alert mind of the S.Chilli..soon made a mountain out of the molehill suggested by T.M.Khan.

Yeh there was opportunity indeed. The possibilty was there, for sure...S.Chilli thought and acquiesed to the amarous advances of T.M. Khan.

It is known that the ancient scribes have written about this historical tryst between the two in a long, detailed and juicy format, but here the same would be mentioned in a more genteel and stick-to-the facts manner.

Tees.M.Khan, that dog day afternoon, was soon excuding and adding his own heat & humidity to the afternoon; and so couldn't hold it any more.

So he asked in a very direct tugging manner that Shaikh Chilli, who was himself, by this time, getting unchilled to the idea himself, should assume the right-angled posture for their first hurrah.

Shaikh Chilli, being a Sheikh as well as a Chilli, said he has no qualms about such matters except that he is a bit finicky about his goodwill and reputation & respect among his folk.

So it was arranged that Tees.M.Khan would do what an action man is supposed to do, but it would be Shaikh Chilli who would be carried through the bazaars , atop T.M. Khan's shoulders, and that it would be Shaikh Chilli who would lay claim that it was he, the Chilli, who led the drone attacks on Tees Maar Khan's unmarred soil.

The Khan, a man of action, had no problem about this at all. To him action was more important than ideas. So he acquiesed to this Chillian Machiavelian makebelieve.

Tees Maar Khan , as per the greement, post-riotous-coitus under the peepul tree that dog day afternoon, flies abuzz, hoisted the Chilli on his shoulders and entered the Bazaar.

Shaikh Chilli had said that as they pass through the bazaar he would announce " Mein neiN aaj Tees Maar khan Kee lee hai" and the Khan had said it was O.K with him.

So when Shaikh Chilli, in a loud , clear, and triumphant voice announced the above..Tees Maar Khan piped in with equal vigour.." Lekin Jaan nay vaalay Jaantay hain"!


=====================================================
there is no moral or lesson in this historical account.
It only tells about the origin of the phrase " jann-nay vaalay janntay jhain"

yaron, tahmed is unhappy about greek princes. he understands jihad by organs well and thinks this has something to do with jihad by the bhindi. yar this is a relatively unimportant thing in indian history and not a systematic bhindi jihad, so tahmed please dont get all upset. this kinda stuff did not go on so we can call it a rare event and get on with life.

peace and happy passover..cristos is born

Guys forget it. Tahmed32 is not listening he is an author of Pak Studies book as he confessed in #139 ".

For them facts prooof etc are only those that fit their world view

The problem that some people have; I thought Tahmed was different, but it would appear not, is that they think pre-Islamic India was jahilia, and we could have had no records. (I'm now beginning to think that pre-Islamic Arabia was probably not quite as jaahil as it is made out to be either.)
There are records written on stone all up and down the countryside! But no records short of a qazi's signature or a wedding album will satisfy you, since your mind is already made up that pre-Islamic Indians were jaahils and incapable of recording history.
Back to my point, Tahmed, why do you know so little of those who ruled your land?

Few references for others (Ahmek will still demand to see a marriage video)
http://wiki.phantis.com/index.php/Seleucid_dynasty A site dedicated to Greek history

http://books.google.com/books?id=K85NA7Rg67wC&pg=PA10&lpg=PA1 0&dq=chandragupta+seleucus&source=bl&ots=-5IhORgpls&sig=FoGJj4FX bgb8LouWMtni-JdoO_Y&hl=en&ei=-UHfSePYFJeqtge5zum4DA&sa=X&oi=book _result&ct=result&resnum=10 "The First Great Political Realist: Kautilya and His Arthashastra
By Roger Boesche,Published by Lexington Books, 2003"

http://books.google.com/books?id=f1cOAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA126&lpg=PA126& ; ;dq=chandragupta+seleucus&source=bl&ots=r_FjkRCKJJ&sig=ECL-gfBvCTK2S -nvkEyzW30N0Oo&hl=en&ei=-UHfSePYFJeqtge5zum4DA&sa=X&oi=book_resu lt&ct=result&resnum=7#PPA124,M1 Page 124 - "The Modern Traveller: A Popular Description, Geographical, Historical, and Topographical, of the Various Countries of the Globe, Published by Printed for James Duncan, 1828"

http://books.google.com/books?id=oSbovvxLlWgC&pg=PA53&lpg= PA53&dq=chandragupta+seleucus&source=bl&ots=bHzQ34pxQV&sig=w8Rbs 51tG1aGJudKB6Ynpqk6PJQ&hl=en&ei=Dz_fSf7sHsqMtgfZsfi5DA&sa=X&oi=b ook_result&ct=result&resnum=1
The Khyber Pass: A History of Empire and Invasion - page 53
By Paddy Docherty
Edition: illustrated
Published by Union Square Press, 2008
ISBN 1402756968, 9781402756962

http://books.google.com/books?id=TcooAAAAYAAJ&pg=RA1-PA472& amp; amp;lpg=RA1-PA472&dq=chandragupta+seleucus&source=bl&ots=Fui-Nd4sKZ& amp; amp;sig=s5KIC3ek5WISntdhsoyU7BurDdo&hl=en&ei=4zzfSfqvGIKKyQX8vJXRDA& sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=8#PRA1-PA472,M1
Ancient India
By Edward James Rapson, page 472
Published by Macmillan, 1922

http://books.google.com/books?id=XNxiN5tzKOgC&pg=PA105&lpg=PA105 &dq=chandragupta+seleucus&source=bl&ots=IL9ZnxnOTm&sig=eNpKJrirG f8jHok7F0DQatdmAY4&hl=en&ei=eELfSYmCJobYyQXElczJDA&sa=X&oi=book_ result&ct=result&resnum=9
Ancient India
By Ramesh Chandra Majumdar
Edition: 8, illustrated
Published by Motilal Banarsidass Publ., 1977

http://books.google.com/books?id=aZk9XzqCFGUC&pg=PA41&lpg=PA41&a mp;a mp;dq=chandragupta+seleucus&source=bl&ots=jgoDErO2qk&sig=09nGzwPxmoa DlByGLdlIUKFYq20&hl=en&ei=uUnfSe3EE83gtge47Oi7DA&sa=X&oi=book_re sult&ct=result&resnum=2
The history of Afghanistan
By Meredith L. Runion, Page 41
Edition: illustrated
Published by Greenwood Publishing Group, 2007

http://books.google.com/books?id=XNxiN5tzKOgC&pg=PA105&lpg=PA105 &dq=chandragupta+seleucus&source=bl&ots=IL9ZnyfMYt&sig=beZqYqFHA avOBiKDABqSC_QUoGE&hl=en&ei=uUnfSe3EE83gtge47Oi7DA&sa=X&oi=book_ result&ct=result&resnum=5
Ancient India
By Ramesh Chandra Majumdar, Page 105
Edition: 8, illustrated
Published by Motilal Banarsidass Publ., 1977

lets try to educate our soft-islamist friend, tahmedji on real indian history. Maybe he can look at india without the islamo-supremacist viewpoint typical of even quite educated pakistanis.

From Ashoka's edicts (300 BC) -

-------------------------------------
Beloved-of-the-Gods, King Piyadasi, desires that all religions should reside everywhere, for all of them desire self-control and purity of heart.[14] But people have various desires and various passions, and they may practice all of what they should or only a part of it. But one who receives great gifts yet is lacking in self-control, purity of heart, gratitude and firm devotion, such a person is mean.

Beloved-of-the-Gods, King Piyadasi, honors both ascetics and the householders of all religions, and he honors them with gifts and honors of various kinds.[22] But Beloved-of-the-Gods, King Piyadasi, does not value gifts and honors as much as he values this -- that there should be growth in the essentials of all religions.[23] Growth in essentials can be done in different ways, but all of them have as their root restraint in speech, that is, not praising one's own religion, or condemning the religion of others without good cause. And if there is cause for criticism, it should be done in a mild way. But it is better to honor other religions for this reason. By so doing, one's own religion benefits, and so do other religions, while doing otherwise harms one's own religion and the religions of others. Whoever praises his own religion, due to excessive devotion, and condemns others with the thought "Let me glorify my own religion," only harms his own religion. Therefore contact (between religions) is good.[24] One should listen to and respect the doctrines professed by others. Beloved-of-the-Gods, King Piyadasi, desires that all should be well-learned in the good doctrines of other religions.

Beloved-of-the-Gods, King Piyadasi, conquered the Kalingas eight years after his coronation.[25] One hundred and fifty thousand were deported, one hundred thousand were killed and many more died (from other causes). After the Kalingas had been conquered, Beloved-of-the-Gods came to feel a strong inclination towards the Dhamma, a love for the Dhamma and for instruction in Dhamma. Now Beloved-of-the-Gods feels deep remorse for having conquered the Kalingas.

Indeed, Beloved-of-the-Gods is deeply pained by the killing, dying and deportation that take place when an unconquered country is conquered. But Beloved-of-the-Gods is pained even more by this -- that Brahmans, ascetics, and householders of different religions who live in those countries, and who are respectful to superiors, to mother and father, to elders, and who behave properly and have strong loyalty towards friends, acquaintances, companions, relatives, servants and employees -- that they are injured, killed or separated from their loved ones. Even those who are not affected (by all this) suffer when they see friends, acquaintances, companions and relatives affected. These misfortunes befall all (as a result of war), and this pains Beloved-of-the-Gods.

There is no country, except among the Greeks, where these two groups, Brahmans and ascetics, are not found, and there is no country where people are not devoted to one or another religion.[26] Therefore the killing, death or deportation of a hundredth, or even a thousandth part of those who died during the conquest of Kalinga now pains Beloved-of-the-Gods. Now Beloved-of-the-Gods thinks that even those who do wrong should be forgiven where forgiveness is possible.

Re: # 154 Tahmed32

"And btw, Indian chroniclers dont even mention Alexander - the concept of a factual recording of history was unknown in India until the muslims introduced it"

So, pray, how do we get the histories of the Gupta Empire and the southern pre-Islamic kingdoms? Where did you learn that 'fact' - from Pakistaniyat studies in 6th grade?

And regarding the fact that 'muslims introduced it (along with many other aspects of civilized life)'
No doubt that Muslims introduced new art and culture, but here is a quiz for you: What in your opinion is the world's first human rights declaration?

Your response (or lack of it) will speak volumes about your scholarship:)

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Re: # 169 Dost

Here is the reference:

"Seleucus also gave his daughter in marriage to Chandragupta and appointed Megasthenes as ambassador to the Maurya court. Scholars owe much information about Mauryan India to a detailed account written by Megasthenes."

http://www.answers.com/topic/chandragupta-maurya

Actual ly, it became established practice to bind alliance with matrimonial ties between the Mauryas and Greeks. Chandragupta's marriage may have been a high-profile one, but there were numerous other marriages between lesser nobles.

The Vakataka-Gupta Age by RCM is very good. He has a co-author for this book.

there is another one which has all the translations of all the edicts, rock stone etc of Ashoka and a few others - I forget the name and author. I will put up the details here when I get back home. Indian authors ofcourse.

In one of the edicts, the number of people dead/killed in the Kalinga wars was also mentioned. Interestingly, though the numbers are mind boggling, the transformation of Asoka's mind was also written about. It is in the brahmi script - and on my recent visits to India have seen these in Sanchi, and many other places.

Re: # 169

DM, Kosambi's book is a great read as well. Well reasoned, large number of references, and is well cited as well.

RC Majumdar is another great read

I recall reading them sometime back. In fact they do cover some of the aspects you guys have been discussing.

tahmed#155:

Thank you for your welcome but I never left chowk. I never read A.L.Basham's book, just know about it and have heard the professor. My knowledge of Chandragupta's marriage with Seleucus's daughter is based on my high school history book which, as far as I remember, described it as a symbol of alliance rather than anything else.

Thanks to the media, we know that we care. The sadistic and perverted spectacle has led to mass outrage.

Why thank the media to realise you care? So if the media didnot high light it, does it mean people would not care. Its as if you are saying, actually it was the embarrassment of seeing this on TV that has caused us anguish, and we need to be seen to doing something.

Come on Ms Minhas, this not really the case it is? or is it?

interesting article. A few queries/issues/points though:

you say:f you expected better from the Taliban, you probably have a shaky grasp of recent history, or really any kind of history at all. But that’s all right because it’s not your fault. If you have been raised and educated in Pakistan, your access to accurate information and ability to contextualize has
probably been hamstrung by bad textbooks and worse teachers. This is why you have internalized a tolerance to pseudo religious fascism, and why you still continue to wonder why Bangladesh stalked off in a huff all those years ago. But do not fear, media is here!

I high light the media part here. It is interesting that the responsibility has been shifted onto the media. The Media has and should have no role in this. There is nothing wrong with the text books - they merely reflect what is the national interest of the society (at an editorial level they are free to interpret facts to suit the national self-interest - though I presume factually they are correct). The media is merely reflecting, at a superficial level, the pressures on the image this "national self-interest" is creating when it interacts with the world at large. Unfortunately, Pakistani is not strong (economically, industrially, scientifically) to turn the pressure the other way. So essentially, the media is just playing this out - because it is at one level embarrassed.

Interestingly you say "why you still continue to wonder why Bangladesh stalked off in a huff all those years ago". Apparently, Bangladesh today has better social statistics than when it was a part of undivided Pakistan, and better than Pakistan today (maybe some one can correct me on this). Yet it was and is no less islamic than Pakistan That is something to think about!

nb: what is there in #154 that you find so annoying? and what does Tahir have to do with what i wrote in #154??

seems like common sense is too hard to handle if you would rather take the idiotlogues (hindu, muslim, atheist - it does not matter) easy way out!

Re: # 164

when a thief/robber barges into my house, I don't stop and psyco-analyse him ... or look for the root-cause and the ills of the society that led to someone, who could have been a fine citizen, turn into riff-raff ... instead I do my utmost to protect my family and property first and think about the intrudor's welfare later!

same principle applies here ... regardless of how this vermin got created, it needs to be abolished ... then we can all go and say 'fatiha' afterwards and 'prevent' it recurring in the future

Re: # 161

tahir sahib, pardon me for my lax response, had i realized it was fan mail i would of course have responded pronto, the entire purpose of my writing to date having been making myself popular.

it is pointless to dwell on, in my opinion, because so many of us are so busy getting mad at the powers (both foreign and local) whose selfish, deluded choices brought us to where we are today that we are unable to focus on the future. we must indeed know how we got here (hence the bit about 'good to know because history is written by those who survive their past') but now that we are here we must figure out what we need to do to move on and move on already.

and i absolutely agree with you about the media, that in fact was a major part of the article, or rather was meant to be (clearly, from some of these responses it is evident that that point was not clearly made, but i'm really not a join the dots kind of writer). the broadcast media in particular- and by the way i do not in fact know a single person who considers the ptv khabarnama a reliable source of news, or even a news source- has been complicit in allowing the taliban to penetrate further into our lives.

many thanks for your response, i would have got to it earlier but i got dizzy after skimming a few that seemed to deal only with whether or not somebody or the others mother was something or the other and went and read to my son instead.

Tahmed, I am leaving you to the loving care of Tahir. You two are made for each other..sniff.
I gave you proof, you just don't want to see it.

DEEP-THINKING BUFFALOS

I-log posted: Apr 8, 2009 Wed 10:13 pm Views: 152 Interacts: 5

Miss Shandana Minhas,

The title of your recent article LASHES TO LASHES, DUST TO DUST might be called cute but the following snap judgments need to be commented on.

"As for who created them, who funded them, who set them on the path that puts them in direct confrontation with just about everyone else, that is something that is good to know and pointless to dwell on."

Pointess to dwell on, but how? THIS is how the media helps the SHEEPLE go to sleep without questioning things! 'Pointless' because it leads one to the conclusion that the Taliban also destroyed the favourite crop of the foreign aggressors whose global covert operations are funded by its production and sale?

Before you jump to the conclusion that I'm sitting somewhere in Tora Bora typing this (on 'dead' Osama's behalf), I assure you that what is wrong about any extremist group or government needs to be condemned. What I also abhore are the spins given to much deeper issues by the extremely controlled global mass media. (Mr. Asadi are you smiling?)

My sources of news gathering do not include PTV's Khabarnama, and I suggest you get to the bottom of the matter by visiting a few alternate news websites and checking out derided theories which have actually come true!

Which websites and what theories, I cannot say; I don't wish to put the Chowq Stuffed to the trouble of banning me again (although I don't care at all for THAT) for revealing the said sources.

"Good to know, because ‘history is written by those who survive their past’. Pointless to dwell on, because wallowing serves a useful purpose only for buffalos."

Don't under-estimate the humble buffalo; while it munches away, it is thinking deeply; it moos when it feels really disturbed.

Indeed your beloved media is re-writing history at break-neck speed, just as Eric Blair predicted in his classic '1984'.

Sleep well.

Bonus PS: Do answer your fan-mail.

Re: # 159

i don't have to try ... is No 151 addressed to you??

#158 yes you did sir. dont try to be cleverer than you are.

Re: # 157; tahmed sahib

I never meant you sir ... incidently I responded to nb's post No 151 ... as evident from my reply

though I am beginning to wonder ... hmmm

cheema genius: focus on what i wrote below. dont try to make me the issue by making up bakwas (sorry, but that accurately describes what you wrote) to misrepresent my religious views.

Re: # 151

nb(how many angels have come to you?)

well ... if any of the 'manifestations' of your inerlocutor here (on chowk) are to go by then a few revelations a day (via the intermediary of the aforementioned) would be a safe guess

DM jee: welcome back to chowk. I have to check out this book by Besham sometime. btw, what exactly does he say on this issue in question of Chandragupta's loving greek, mythical or real, wife? nb named the book, but did not quote what it actually said.

nb/nkg: I see you two are having understanding what constitutes "proof". You are obviously not familiar with the concept, so I sympathize with your difficulty. Let me help.

First you have to get rid of the poor attitudes you were demonstrating in your posts below.

Lesson 1: Your saying something is a "fact" (as you were doing) does not make it a fact. No matter how many times you repeat it (as you were doing).

Lesson 2: Providing the title of some book or the name of some author (as you two did in response to my questioning the basis for your "fact"), does not make it "proof". You have to also read what the book actually says. Thus, I read what nkg's reference book had to say, and the book made clear the question of Chandragupta's greek soulmate (or at least bedmate) was a conjecture, nothing approaching "proof".

Once you have mastered Lessons 1 and 2, then you are ready to catch up with what Grade 6 students take for granted - understand what constitutes "reasonable proof" and what is a "fact". Thus, e.g., we know of the existence of Alexander because of contemporary chroniclers, cities named after him, artifacts found at excavation sites, coins struck with his likeness. And yet, any serious historian will readily admit to lacking proof of many important aspects of Alexander's life. And btw, Indian chroniclers dont even mention Alexander - the concept of a factual recording of history was unknown in India until the muslims introduced it (along with many other aspects of civilized life), and Al beruni's writings are proof of that. (the last part will no doubt get you angry - but I am an evil paki bedunoid old man. getting pious, morally pure, intellectually perfect, hindus angry is my schtick).
-

#152, Tahmed would like to speak to a witness who was present at the wedding. Please arrange the needful.

tahmed...
what do you feel is proof?...Family album...or some record in Pakistani/Afghanistani mosque...?

Tahir, the existence of angels and revelations are all fantasies, (how many angels have come to you?) but people have the right to have their fantasies, so do you. All that I want is that people like you and Urstruly should let other people enjoy their own fantasies too.

Re: # 148
"the Old Testament and Koran are just as much fantasies"

The Old Testament figures are definitely manipulated!

Can you quote where the Qur'an does that?

Urstruly, further to what nb wrote, the pakistan's own city of mohenjo daro has been estimated to have had a population of about 50 thousand as early as 2500 BC. Harappa had another 30 k.

By the time 1st century BC rolled around, there were cities around the world, from Rome to China, with near a million people living in them, each, leading extremely complex lives.

The earliest reference to China is found in Mahabharata, wherein they are refered to as a bunch of barbarians. (probably everyone considered everyone else a barbarian in those days!).

#146 Urstruly, the Old Testament and Koran are just as much fantasies as any of the Hindu religious texts. It's just that you choose to believe in some, and not the others. Don't fool yourself that one set is scientifically correct.
Re your assertion about the population of cities, there is no need to make a fool of yourself. In 200 BC, the population of the world was about 200 million. Changan in China had 400,000 people and Patna/ Patliputra had 350,000. Some sources put Alexandria's population at the time at around half a million. Contrary to rumours, the world did not begin somewhere in the seventh century CE.

Tahmed sahib,

I have never heard of there being any greek women in Alexander's army. So, I assume (this thing about Asoka being quarter greek is another Made in India myth posing as history.

But if by any chance Seleucus had a Greek woman in his army, she wud have plumped for Guptaji on his own- the Greek men in his army wud have preferred boys anyways.

Regards

I seriously doubt that in 216 BC any city in the world could have a population greater that 2-3 thousand. It was impossible to support an infrstructure that could support a population more than that. Therefore, the story about ashok and Kalijar seems to be a fabrication of hindu mind who created the mythical stories like Ramayana and Mahabharat where millions of men, women, and innocent monkeys are killed. Women are kidnapped; monsters are burnt; and women self immolate to prove that they didn't do any hanky panky and thus a religion is born.

kuldip nayyar types...this one is for people like you who think india and pureland are in the same league...

Obama’s new strategy sours US-Pakistan ties
By Anwar Iqbal
US Joint Chiefs of Staff Adm. Mike Mullen and US envoy to Pakistan and Afghanistan, Richard Holbrooke hold talks with Pakistani Foreign Minister Shah Mahmood Qureshi in Islamabad.—AP

WASHINGTON: US President Barack Obama’s new strategy is causing serious differences between the United States and Pakistan over how to fight the militants hiding in the Pak-Afghan region.

US think-tanks and the media believe that the differences revolve around two major issues: India’s role in Afghanistan and the drone attacks at suspected terrorist targets inside Pakistan.

They acknowledge that India is using its overwhelming presence in Afghanistan to create problems for Pakistan in Balochistan and other places.

Some experts say that in recent meetings Pakistanis officials asked the United States to use its influence on India to stop its interference in Balochistan but the Americans are not willing to do so.

This, according to them, explains why Tuesday’s talks in Islamabad between Americans and Pakistani officials ended on a sour note, indicating clearly that the two sides have serious differences.

In a report distributed on Wednesday, the US Council on Foreign Relations noted that in their meetings with America’s special envoy Richard Holbrooke and Chairman of US Joint Chiefs of Staff Admiral Mike Mullen, Pakistani officials contended that Washington showed disproportionate support for India in its bilateral relations with Pakistan.

Also on Wednesday, the Foreign Policy magazine quoted James Traub as saying that ‘Pakistan feels as if it’s falling apart … (and) American policy has arguably made the situation even worse’.

Mr Traub, a US scholar who writes for the New Yorker magazine and The New York Times, noted that the Predator-drone attacks along the border, ‘though effective, drive the Taliban eastward, deeper into Pakistan. And the strategy has been only reinforcing hostility to the United States among ordinary Pakistanis’.

The council, which has produced several foreign policy leaders, noted that Pakistani officials were also criticising the parameters of Ambassador Holbrooke’s ‘Af-Pak’ mission, saying a more productive assignment would include mediation of the India-Pakistan conflict in Kashmir.

Many experts believed that the Kashmir dispute was ‘inextricably linked with problems of militancy in other parts of Pakistan and Afghanistan’, the council observed.

But the council pointed out that while talking to journalists in India, Mr Holbrooke denied that he was pushing for new peace dialogue between India and Pakistan.

The US think-tank reported that on Tuesday rifts emerged between Mr Holbrooke and his negotiating counterparts in Pakistan, as Islamabad flatly rejected a proposal for joint military operations in Pakistan’s tribal areas.

According to the report, Mr Holbrooke and Admiral Mullen also alleged that the Taliban’s senior leadership was currently hiding in Balochistan.

The Foreign Policy magazine noted that the US administration justified the drone attacks by claiming it would deny the militants a ‘safe haven’ in Pakistan.

‘This line of argument sounds persuasive, but it falls apart on closer examination. For starters, it is not clear that al Qaeda requires a safe haven to do damage, especially since the original organisation has metastasised into smaller groups of sympathisers.’

The magazine pointed out that only a large-scale invasion could eliminate al Qaeda from the region but such an invasion was impossible and therefore there was little reason to continue the drone attacks.

‘US military strikes in Pakistan —even limited ones —tend to undermine the Pakistani government and increase the risk that Pakistan will become a failed state,’ the report noted.

On differences between Pakistan and the US over India, the Wall Street Journal pointed out that Washington was finding it difficult to ‘pursue a cohesive strategy that eradicates militancy in Pakistan and Afghanistan but doesn’t heighten tensions among three countries whose shared history is rife with violence and mutual suspicion’.

The newspaper reported that US policy-makers initially considered including Kashmir as part of the US strategy but India balked.

‘US officials subsequently have taken discussion about Kashmir off the table, even though it remains a central flashpoint in tensions between India and Pakistan,’ the newspaper noted. ‘Pakistani officials have complained that the US needs to consider all conflicts in the region as it seeks to solve them.’

yoo hoo prophetboy...a slight problem with your narrative of the paki state bravely fighting jihadis it had no role in creating..

http://www.thenews.com.pk/top_story_detail.asp?Id=21418
Pak-US ties at the lowest ebb

Thursday, April 09, 2009

By Hamid Mir
Moreover, the Obama administration now has some serious reservations about Army Chief General Ashfaq Pervez Kayani as well. During my visit to the Asia Society in New York, one senior journalist and Asia Society member Mary Anne Weaver openly claimed that the State Department officials provided her an opportunity to listen to the alleged telephonic conversation between General Kayani and al-Qaeda leader Jalaludin Haqqani.

tahmed:

Sorry, I wrote the earlier post without reading earlier interacts and the reference provided by nb. Basham, of course, was the most celebrated historian of India whose book is prescribed as a text in several American Universities. I had a chance to hear him in person in Ottawa before he died.

tahmed32:

The history book that I read, dating from the British period, said that all this happened after Alexander had died, so there was no way of him knowing about it. After Alexander died, one of his commanders, Seleucus, took over the command of his Indic domains. It was his daughter who married Chandragupta. At least, this is what the pre-partition history books taught in Punjab.

Whether or not Ashok was the grandson through Chandragupta's greek wife is something that my history book said nothing about.

But what does all this have to do with Shandana's article?

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BJ2
apnar kaimun achen?

beeji khabar, saroo aye.

nb: #132 Thanks. I am not sure exactly what the the book you provide as source says on this question of hellenic beauties for patna kings (I am getting poetic here). The history book nkg provided has indicated it was a conjecture, not an established fact. The last book on Indian history I wrote (a couple of years ago, "India, a History" by John Keay) made no mention of this. As I recall, what Keay said was that there was no evidence of Alexander having heard of Chandragupta, although it mentioned something about Alexander may have heard of him -but unfortunately he had to turn back because the Pakistanis of Multan put a stop to his conquering and sent Alexander packing with an Made in Multan arrow.

Re: # 135

Zaman bhai, feel free to post again after you fully wake up.

Re: # 136

Sauce-manoos, kee boalchho -- aami kichhoo boojhtey paari na!!

Re: # 134 nb, phit lady, aapni keno ey addha building er shonge kotha barto korchen. ye manoos er maatha kichu noy. pak studies book naa likle yey manoos oye kauthat ta ke "fact" kore bhabhe na.

Aar pak-studies boey jo podle aar bhilaat aaschey au sala, suddenly bhabche ki sara jagot jaara pak-studies boeye likheche oye jaiso hoy!

ki bolbo errom hoye che araa sob. bechara, saath bochor sobay aunaarke mithe kotha bolleche aar ekhone aora khalli phirangier koth.....choddooon. aaye booddhor maatha ta theek noye

My precious tears
Understandably all the outrage is accurate, however, did anyone yet verify if this beating or lashing really took place or was it only a 2 act play to traumatize the world full of sympathizers?
There has been many rumors that this is not for real and even the girl has verified so, what is the credibility of this clip and the occurence, I would like to understand before I feel sorry and be taken by some pranksters who may have come up with this item which "may" not even be a credible account. Of course if it took place and the recording is legitimate I certainly do not condone this.

OK, I should have realised you wouldn't have heard of the book either. It's by AL Basham. Here's the wikipedia link
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chandragupta_Maurya
"In exchange for this territory, Seleucus obtained five hundred war elephants, a military asset which would play a decisive role at the Battle of Ipsus in 302 BC. A matrimonial alliance was also agreed upon (called Epigamia in ancient sources, meaning either the recognition of marriage between Indians and Greeks, or a dynastic alliance):
“ "He (Seleucus) crossed the Indus and waged war with Sandrocottus [Maurya], king of the Indians, who dwelt on the banks of that stream, until they came to an understanding with each other and contracted a marriage relationship." �
Also,http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Iranian_History/Contents/The_Seleucids
". A marital alliance was sealed between the two with the marriage of Seleucus' daughter Helen with Chandragupta Maurya. Megasthenes was sent as the Greek ambassador to the Indian court and he has described the splendors of the Mauryan capital Pataliputra (Greek:Palimbothra) in his book Indica."
You can still deny it all.
Now, why hadn't you heard about this?

nb:
This is not helpful.

Who is the author of "The Wonder that was India"?
Can you provide a link to the part in Wikipedia where this is mentioned??

What, the source of information that Chandragupta had a Greek wife? Everything from Wikipedia to The Wonder that was India. It is an established fact that he married a Greek, conjecture that Ashoka was descended from that Greek wife.
Even HPSauce has worked it out.
Now tell me how you don't know anything about the people that ruled your land?

angrezi aati naheen...magar yeah discussion bahoot chikisajanak hain...bahoot jagah bahoot tarah ke information hain. Yeah theek hain ki Chandragupta nein yavana ki rajkumari se saadhi ki. Bindusara us saadhi ka maal hain.

Ek add jagah, aisa bhi likha hain ki Bindusara ne yavana ki ladki se saadhi mara aur asoka aaya. neeche references hain.

Sala, yeh sab tau hamara pak-studies kitaabh mein tau naheen hain



(a)http://www.indianetzone.com/20/early_life_career_ashoka.htm
Y et the modern scholars do not support the view and they hold a different view that Ashoka was the son of a Greek Queen of Bindusara. Later the interpreters of ancient history has opined that if the source of the modern scholars are to be believed then it may be inferred that Ashoka must be of mixed descendants and contested for the throne. The modern interpreters have also said that Ashoka`s close relation with the Greeks and his leanings towards Buddhism may be due to his mixed ancestry.

(b) http://books.google.com/books?id=yUhvfR1S_UEC&pg=PP18&lpg=PP18&dq=as hoka+the+great+parentage&source=bl&ots=vfWAJajHiP&sig=0BiRkblD_slQG- AvhrHpoTsuM5s&hl=en&ei=zUveScmiDqCqjAf6opgQ&sa=X&oi=book_result& amp; amp;ct=result&resnum=1

(c)http://buddhism.lib.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/JR-ENG/ charp.htm (sala yeah bahoot acha kitaabh hain)

(d)www.inae.org/metallurgy/archives_pdf/kosambi.pdf
(c)http://en.wikip edia.org/wiki/Ashoka_the_Great

nb: that may well be true. but you havent answered the simple question I asked you: what is the source of your info?

(the only straight answer i have received so far is from nkg, and the source he provided makes it clear that this is a conjecture, not an established fact as you keep repeating).

Tahmed, you questioned the fact that Ashoka could have had a Greek grandmother. So she was probably his step-grandmother. It doesn't change that Chandragupta had a Greek wife.

Iron Mask: Now go something useful with your time. You always came across as mature and intelligent when you limited your chowk interactions - as they say, if a fool keeps silent, people will think he is a wise man.

Now dont get mad at me for giving you this good advice. You will only waste more time cursing me for being an old man and a paki and other horrible things. :-)

#126 ironmask: wrong. only ignorants accept as "facts" without checking the source. any ignoramus can start spouting "facts" without knowing what he is talking abou.

and you just proved yourself to be an ignoramus through your inability to provide any source to back your "facts" about asoka's mother.

Tahmed32 only ignorants like yourself would ask for references which are facts.

Like you would ask for the reference to the fact that Vihara lost all knowledge and people of intellect due to one guy - Khilji when he destroyed Nalanda.

that is the state of your being.

BTW it was not me calling you that name, I just asked for it to be stopped - you are a idiot (I am sorry to say so) (and in the strictest sense -without the abuse associated with it). You are a vertible waste of time. Good luck to you

ironmask#121 no, you genius. calling me an old man and a bedunoid from the safety of the keyboard does not mean you hit my face with a boot. it just means that bs is the best you can do when asked a simple question to support your claims.

nb #119 I am learning a lot of hindu myths on chowk. When asked to present the source of their info that asoka mother was greek, geniuses nkg/ironmask came up with ..... zilch (see below - unless, like ironmask, you consider a combination of conjectures and ridicule to to be a substitute for historical facts)!

maybe you can do better. what is the source of this knowledge??

Anil writes "Even their (i.e. Muslims') brutality pales subsequent acts of brutality and its affects on larger number of people."

You miserable bigot, first I did not deny that "Muslims" have been brutal but when you say that their brutality pales subsequent brutality that is total horse dung. Second, we were talking about things inherent in Islam as your einsteinwalla friend was claiming and I had answered based on that. There is no system nobler than the system of the Quran, where nobility is circumscribed by justice, saying that brutality is inherent in it is BS.

Further the Muslims of the medieval ages were much more enlightened than their Hindu and Christian counterparts and much more noble. Their treatment of the conquered was also much less brutal than what was being practiced at the time. That is an "average" and not an all occasion assessment. So cut your goddamned crap.

TNITC masadi

#120 Yes, Chanakya, that vilified Hindu was very much a Punjabi!!

Re: # 118 Ah! Tahmed32, when the boot hits a person in the face this is the kind of stuff they start spouting. Come on Old man, grow up and be your age. One always assumes that with age comes maturity in your case it is rank hypocrisy and a stench of hatred!

Re: # 119 and nb to boot, Taxilla was the place where Chandragupta's guru - Chanakya taught.

As I said, unless it is GOD's book with squiggly writing or written by a gora the likes of Tahmed32 cannot accept it.

They are so infused with self-hate and self-loathing, it is amazing.

What is even a greater pity, is that they seem to forget their own history and want to borrow from elsewhere

Tahmed, you didn't know that Chandragupta Maurya had a Greek wife? You didn't even know that there were quite a few Greek women who came to India at the time, and you thought it was a made in India myth?
This really is tragic. Chandragupta and Ashoka ruled over all of Pakistan and most of Afghanistan. (So much for the myth that the Afghans were never conquered.) And you know nothing about them.

nkg: thanks for answering my simple question. that didnt hurt, did it? in fact, seems like seeking a proper response has prompted you two geniuses to actually stop swallowing what is a conjecture (per the source you yourself provide) as "facts" that are only be questioned by old men, beduinoids, and paki devils.

Askoha's mother was not considered worthy - for hse was not of the "warrior" class but a lowly bhrahmin.

However, his father had a greek mother.

Re: # 103
nb...
mam, you are correct....Ashoka's mother most probably was not the greek wife of Bindusara....As per my knowlege, Ashoka was son of a lesser queen (duo rani). So, he had to quel rebellion from other brother's to establish himself on the throne....

NGK baboo, thank the lord for small mercies - the editor of the book is a gora sahib (T).

But you need to do further research - please see if it is in GOD's own little book with the squiggly writing? If it isn't then it is not worth it.

Old man TAhmed32, I am sure is not impressed with this. As I said history starts in the recent past for this old man.

Re: # 112
tahmed...
"Bindusara's father Chnadragupta, mother the duaghter of Seleucus (the satrap of Alexander)...."

Now, if you search Korun to find the existance of Seleucus, then pardon me and may be Iron Mask....

http://books.google.com/books?id=Vpqr1vNWQhUC&pg=PA367&lpg=P A367&dq=bindusara%2Bseleucus&source=bl&ots=Xe5djAwTZn&sig=oxuMjk mym7djQY247VkDJcsQaSk&hl=en&ei=WfTdSYLeJd2gmAeymqSsDg&sa=X&oi=bo ok_result&ct=result&resnum=9

ironmask/nkg: duh!! are you two stupid or what?? lets hear an answer guys!!

nkg: i am glad you and ironmask are working together in responding to my simple question - but so far, despite a half dozen posts, you have only proved that ironmask + nkg = 0 + 0 = 0.

so what is the source of this claim of chandragupta's greek wife?

ironmask: your repeating the story without identifying the source does not answer my question. nor does calling me an old man or a bedouin or anything else answer my question.

sorry....
but this nickname is not meant for any abusive purpose....just for poking....(college ragging)

Seriously Tahmed32, its a pity that you are so forgetful of the history of your land. Its a crying shame, a great pity really. I feel extremely sorry for you.

Re: # 107 NGK Tahmed32's doesnot go that far back, it starts around 1500AD (T).

And please have some respect for the olde man of chowk, by not referring to him as "beduin32". Atleast spell beduin properly will ya

beduin32...
Greeks used teravel to India to learn mathematics, medicine and astronomy much before the time of Alexander....In ancient India and greece, women used to entoure with their relatives...

regards....
In Kalinga war, those who participated in the war ( from Kalinga side),were killed...Now, if you read the history written in Aligarh madressah, you may find such wierd theories ( which Murad Beg sometimes present in this forum)...The actual place of war was Dhauli...If you are living in India, you can board Dhauli express( from Howrah) and reach the spot. The local folk tale will provide the actual account of the hsitory....

ashoka's father Bindusara
Bindusara's father Chnadragupta, mother the duaghter of Seleucus (the satrap of Alexander).

Now go weep into your coffee you old man

Re: # 104 thus spake the sage of chowk (a standing ovation to the man)

I have never heard of there being any greek women in Alexander's army. So, I assume (unless someone can provide a respectable source) this thing about Asoka being quarter greek is another Made in India myth posing as history.

Regards, please feel free to carry on this unrelated conversation, but there is no evidence that Ashoka's grandmother was the Greek wife of Chandragupta Maurya. Ashoka's brothers were not innocents, and by all accounts, began the war against him themselves.

Ajeya, Bjkumar,

Such generalization, whether Hindus killed innocents or not.. is ridiculous.

Hinduism is a culture (a generally accepted social normative behaviour) and not a religion. But culture also has its exceptions. Ofcourse Ashok not only killed thousand in Kalinga war but also killed his brother by treachery, very much like Aurangzeb did.

Important thing is that he learnt and moved on to nonviolence. This is what 'Hindu' or Indian culture did to him. Ashok was a quarter greek and must have been strongly influenced by greek legends and Alexander's romp across Asia. Still he could break away from his past and change. Many sages did that after a philosophical jout. Like also scientists do, they do not go on to live with what is proven illogical or - unsocial. This is what is important.

If Indian muslims can walk away from Arabic past of violence, then of course 'hinduism' -indian culture can be showcased against European. Europe had to invent secularity to segregate personal beliefs from public life. India may not need it if hindu culture which learnd from Greeks can also learn from Islam and move on.

BJ, don't be contrary for no good reason. The reason so many civilians died in the Kalinga war is that even after the army fell, they refused to accept defeat and did not accept Ashoka as their ruler. Find some other ruler to disapprove of, there are plenty.

Re: # 82
BJ...
the ethics of war (in India) was not to touch civilians and each segment of army will only fight with each other....Kalinga war was no exception....better read Swami Vivekananda....

If musla rulers in cow belt were so benevolent, how come there are so many muslas in that area and the population density thins drasticaly outside cow belt and gangetic valley?

As for my detailed comments, an I-log awaits Miss Minhas elsewhere.

Re: # 7

"and the futility of debating who is responsible for the Taliban. Who cares?"

I care.

Chauhan sahib, I can't believe you wrote THAT!. Merely appreciating the writer will not get you anywhere I assure you.

As the song goes: 'Get down on it'.

BTW ajeya, you still owe me the list of "good" things you are on record (in your #72) as claiming that Hitler did. Don't forget now!

#94 Posted by bjkumar

Still no mention of innocent civilians dying. Almost ALL muslim rulers killed innocent Hindu civilians by the thousands.

But liberal mfs don't see any difference.

Note to onlookers. This is how my arguments with muslims/fifth columnists always ends. Me providing REFERENCED statements, and muslims/liberal fifth columnists resorting to fudging and straight-out lying.

You provide historical evidence - they tell you that they don't know any history. But they keep on pushing their agenda.

And Ajeya darling, here is one for the road. Read it and sulk in private. And if your wife asks, just tell her to rub some iodex on that sore ass of yours.

From http://kalingawar.com/

"India as a massive and magnificent nation was the site of the most unforgettable battles in history, one of which was the bloody Kalinga War in 261 BC.

The Magadha Army was a mighty force of the Mauryan Empire that ruled over ancient India. Stretching from the north along the Himalayas, to the East of Assam, and onwards to Pakistan, Balochistan and the old Afghanistan, the vastness of its reach only stopped in the small yet rich kingdom called Kalinga (located in the present-day Indian state of Ornissa), which remained independent from the Mauryan rule under King Chandragupta and his son, Emperor Bindusara.

Complete domination of Kalinga had always been the crusade of these two rulers, but they failed to conquer it due to the patriotic Kalinga people who valued their freedom and ready to defend it anytime. As such, the fervor to invade Kalinga passed on to Ashoka, son of Bindusara who died in 272 BC.

On the eight year of Ashoka’s reign, the plot to conquer Kalinga commenced. The mighty Magadha Army with King Ashoka in the lead and thousands of cavalry and war animals after him, swooped over the Kalinga warriors in Dhaili hill, site of the battle, trampling its village army of 60,000 soldiers, 1,000 cavalry and 700 elephants. Despite being outnumbered, the Kalingas fought with fervor, their valor ending in death. In no time, Ashoka’s army won.

The Kalinga War claimed the lives of 100,000 Kalinga people, 10,000 men from Ashoka’s army, and hundreds of war elephants on the spot, not to mention an exhaustive damage to more lives and properties. It was said that the Daya River next to the battlefield flowed with the blood of thousands of dead warriors."

Re: # 91

Ajeya darling, don't cry! Today was simply one of your bad days! No need to throw tantrums! Perhaps tomorrow you won't be so humiliated.

Perhaps tomorrow, bjkumar won't whip your ass so mercilessly!!

Ummeed pe duniya jeeti hai, after all!

#90 bjkumar

[Here is another link which pretty much says the same thing.]

More fudging. It says nothing about killing civilians.

Pathetic.

bjkumar,

Why don't you simply convert to Islam and move to Pakistan? Maybe join the ISI or something.

Re: # 87

Are you crying yet, Ajeya darling?!!

Here is another link which pretty much says the same thing. Perhaps the liberal Mussalmaans figured out that they will be getting a chance to make you look like a turkey so deviously wrote it all ahead of time!!

http://www.india9.com/i9show/Kalinga-War-34302.htm

"Emperor Ashoka, one of the greatest rulers of India, was the most famous of the Mauryas who ruled over North India. He reigned from 273 to 232 BC. Ashoka extended the Maurya Empire to the whole of India except far South and the south-east, reaching even into Central Asia. He conducted several military campaigns to expand his empire. His last major campaign was fought for the conquest of the Kingdom of Kalinga (in Orissa) in 261 BC.

Ashoka succeeded in conquering Kalinga after a long and brutal war. The war took a toll of 100,000 men. 150,000 men were injured and thousands were captured and retained as slaves. The battle field of horrific bloodshed profoundly affected Ashoka. The Kalinga war was a turning point in his life. Deeply distressed, he gave up war and sought peace in Buddhist teachings of love and non-violence. He gave up hunting and slaughtering of animals. Ashoka shunned violence of every kind and adviced his subjects to do the same."

#88 bjkumar

Ha ha ha ha.... I can edit that page right now to say that YOU killed the civilians - will mean just as much.

SHOW ME A REFERENCE for that statement in Wikipedia. Muslas/liberals usually post unreferenced material to support their lies.

Re: # 86

Just to make you cry like a baby, here is the link again:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalinga_War

Now, anybody can see your reaction here. If you are caught with your pants down, you start surmising that the Mussalmaans did it to you!

#85 bjkumar

[If I show you the link, will you admit your folly and stop making nonsensical prejudiced statements on this site?!!]

Ha ha haha.... Liberal thought he had actually managed to win ONE argument. Give me the reference. Unreferenced material in Wikipedia is no good. Because Muslims or JNU fifth columnists can edit the page.

#82 Posted by bjkumar

Actually I found the Wikipedia page. Most probably edited by a Muslim or a liberal.

THERE IS NO REFERENCE SUPPLIED for this valuable fact.

Re: # 83

[SHOW me the link.]

If I show you the link, will you admit your folly and stop making nonsensical prejudiced statements on this site?!!

Liberals and Muslims ALWAYS have to resort to lies to try to obfuscate.

The current discussion will demonstrate this for everyone.

#82 Posted by bjkumar

[about 100,000 Kalinga civilians and more than 10,000 of Ashoka's own warriors were among those slain.]

WHERE in Wikipedia did you see this?

SHOW me the link.

Re: # 81

Ajeya, YOU are the ignorant individual here who reads only what he wants to read and closes his eyes to what does not fit his views.

Here is a simple account of the Kalinga war from wikipedia.

"...The war began in the 8th year of Ashoka's reign, probably in 261 BC. Ashoka's grandfather Chandragupta had previously attempted to conquer Kalinga, but had been repulsed. After a bloody battle for the throne after Bindusara's death, Ashoka tried to annex Kalinga. At that time the king of Kalinga was Raja Anantha Padma Nabhan. Ashoka was successful only after a savage war, whose consequences changed Ashoka's views on war and led him to pledge never to wage a war. It is said that in the aftermath of the Battle of Kalinga the Daya River running next to the battle field turned red with the blood of the slain; about 100,000 Kalinga civilians and more than 10,000 of Ashoka's own warriors were among those slain.

Dhauli hill is presumed to be the area where the Kalinga War was fought. The historically important Dhauli hills are located on the banks of the Daya River, 8 km south of Bhubaneswar in Orissa (India). Dhauli hill, with a vast open space adjoining it, has major Edicts of Asoka engraved on a mass of rock by the side of the road leading to the summit of the hill."

#80 bjkumar

[However, do you want to make a guess about how many Ashoka the Great killed in Kalinga before he turned into a Buddhist?]

Ashoka NEVER killed a SINGLE unarmed civilian.

[Ama yaar, unlike you, I claim no special historical insights.]

The ignorant should not argue, but keep quiet.

Re: # 76

[How come you could not come up with ONE Hindu king who killed unarmed civilians?]

Ama yaar, unlike you, I claim no special historical insights. However, do you want to make a guess about how many Ashoka the Great killed in Kalinga before he turned into a Buddhist?

PS: I do not monopolize the redflag.

#74 bjkumar

[And since you say [There are many good things that Hitler did in his life.] would you like to elaborate and impress us with some of those facts?! I can not imagine any. ]

I will. AFTER you answer my question.

You sound like a woman. A muslim woman. (But anyway, that is not germaine to the current argument)

hey bjkumar, did you redflag my post?

Re: # 73

NKG, first you need to make up your mind whether you wish to present any arguments, attack people individually or merely enjoy mouthing those over-used expletives.

#74 bjkumar

[There is no obfuscation...]

The typical liberal lying nature is unravelling. How come you could not come up with ONE Hindu king who killed unarmed civilians?

#71 bjkumar

[Battles back them tended to be brutal affairs and predated the Geneva conventions...]

Unknown to people who are unaware of their history, civilization did not start with the West. Read about the rules of war practiced by the Hindus (before they themselves were given the name "Hindu" by outsiders) here:

http://www.icrc.org/Web/eng/siteeng0.nsf/htmlall/review-858-p285/$File/ irrc_858_sinha.pdf

There's a little bit here as well:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/hinduism/hinduethics/war.shtml

Re: # 72

There is no obfuscation. Most historical "greats" are in reality complex figures. You will have few takers for the comparison of Akbar with Hitler.

And since you say [There are many good things that Hitler did in his life.] would you like to elaborate and impress us with some of those facts?! I can not imagine any.

Re: # 66
bj...
that is the reason, cow belt has higest population of muslas ( which they have ruled for most of the period)....

71...
musla invadres did not have enough skillset to administer far advanced indian society....

#71 bjkumar

[Ajeya, if I remember correctly, Akbar had both Hindus and Mussalmans in his court. I also believe he himself started a new religion (Din-e-Ilahi). So, it makes no sense to categorize him as a fundo.]

There are many good things that Hitler did in his life. He is still considered by all sane people as a monster.

[That having been said, if he indeed killed whole bunch of innocents -- I am not going to defend it. Battles back them tended to be brutal affairs and predated the Geneva conventions....]

You ARE defending him with your obfuscation (that I simply HATE about liberals). Okay. Show me ONE hindu king who killed unarmed captives or civilians.

Re: # 70

Ajeya, if I remember correctly, Akbar had both Hindus and Mussalmans in his court. I also believe he himself started a new religion (Din-e-Ilahi). So, it makes no sense to categorize him as a fundo. That having been said, if he indeed killed whole bunch of innocents -- I am not going to defend it. Battles back them tended to be brutal affairs and predated the Geneva conventions and a despot is after all a despot with absolute powers. That's why we don't like to have them in modern times.

Re: #68

Did you ever bother to read any history? Did you ever read about the slaughter of 50,000 UNARMED captive hindus at Chitod by Akbar the GRRRREAT?

#63 masadi

[My informed opinion says that no greater challenge in the history of mankind to unchecked brutality has been witnessed than the system of high morality suggested by the Quran.]

Wow..

Um..er..did mohammad kill 700 UNARMED civilians? Did he sell their INNOCENT and HELPLESS women and children as slaves? Did he rape women captives of war? Did he express his intentions to marry a 6-year old?

Or are these lies spread by America the great Satan?

Re: # 67

Ajeya, the way I understand it, other than Aurangzeb (who was influenced by the Ullama), pretty much all the Mughal rulers (from Babar to Bahadurshah Zafar) were benign.

#66 bjkumar

[Most Muslim rulers of the past were like any other benign rulers anywhere.]

Ok. Name a few. Put your money where your mouth is.

Re: # 60

Einsteinwala, you make the same mistake many others are making -- equating all of Islam with the Wahabii streak! Wahabiism is fairly recent phenomenon. Most Muslim rulers of the past were like any other benign rulers anywhere.

By the grace of God, the Wahabiis -- and their Talibanic manifestation -- shall be defeated. Finally, at long last, there may be signs of stirring on the part of the average awaam!

This man is speaking straight forward and without massaging facts and going to source of problems.

"External interference: If the Americans really want peace in Pakistan then they must force the Indians and Israelis out of Pakistan, and preferably out of Afghanistan. And they should arm Pakistan effectively against Indian attack (preferably also against Israeli attack). Pakistan is no threat to these countries. Furthermore, the Americans should induce, by whatever means, India to right the wrong of Kashmir. Indian had as little right to Kashmir as the Zionists had to Palestine."



The writer has degrees from the Royal College of Art, Oxford University, and the Institute of Psychiatry, University of London. He divides his time between the UK and Pakistan. Email: charlesferndale@yahoo.co.uk
He is british educated man and talks straight and forward.






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Re: # 63

Masadi ji:

"...My informed opinion says that no greater challenge in the history of mankind to unchecked brutality has been witnessed than the system of high morality suggested by the Quran..."

Can you please substantiate this? Human brutality is historically with us, and has increased not decreased. Therefore, neither people of Quranic time, no Quran could have witnessed subsequent and worse brutality than created by Islamic warriors, whose brutality no doubts was during the period and place you describe. Even their brutality pales subsequent acts of brutality and its affects on larger number of people.

Get over your attempts to glorify, or to ignore brutality of some over the others.

Einsteinwallah writes "IMO brutality is in fact built into islam."

That is your uninformed stereotypical opinion. My informed opinion says that no greater challenge in the history of mankind to unchecked brutality has been witnessed than the system of high morality suggested by the Quran.

You have BS on your side I have knowledge on mine.

TNITC masadi

Shandana,

Thank you for this.

[Time now to answer the most pertinent question of all: how many Pakistanis does it take to change a light bulb? One hundred and seventy million and counting…]

But the Pakistanis have to want to change! :)

** don't have time to read through all the posts, so apologies if this line was used already.

Eihnsteinwallah:

My position on religion allow for people to question "Is man the best creation of God, or is God the best imagination of man?"

Religion is a collection of belief that its believer believes. Therefore, it belongs in the personal mindspace of the believer. That is where it has the most need and respect. When such a belief system, which by definition can no longer be questioned or challenged, comes out in the society at large it brings out differences on emotional grounds. Religion, therefore from within or outside, will have challenges. Masadi ji rarely shows respect for others with differing view points. He instead launches into name calling etc. that is where his pen is, to many this tirade is rightly cowardly and impotent points, because power of the debatable points is missing. "Impotent little pen" from a writer to me certainly meant about the power of writing (hence pen).

anil

She need not have written like this: "impotent little pen" if she wanted masadi to pay respect to her. Shandana is fake pompous academic. Otherwise why write like this: "this is not a problem created by barbaric savages, this kind of brutality is in fact built into islam. we cannot vanquish it till we vanquish the religion from our lives. in my books, that kind of attitude doesn't dignify a response"?

Unless if she is the one who is incapable (what is female of impotent? frigid?) ... Unless if she is the one who is incapable of making any comment? Why cannt one study the phenomena of islam as causing an obsession with brutality amongst its followers? Even strictly as an academic exercise? Well? Why in your books such questions be not proper topic of an academe's investigation? You are so special? Islam is special? What?

IMO brutality is in fact built into islam. And we need not have exclusive or between "a problem created by barbaric savages" and "we cannot vanquish it till we vanquish the religion".

Some more Islamic Terrorists of the Mirpuri-Poonjabi persuation caught in Raids across the North west of UK

Raids across the North west of UK
(a) http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7990719.stm

(b)http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol /news/uk/crime/article6061914.ece

Ten Pakistan-born nationals were arrested this evening after a long covert surveillance operation involving MI5 and police officers from the North West Counter-Terrorism Unit. But the operation was nearly blown.

(c)http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/apr/08/counter-terrorism-raid s-nort h-west

Re: # 43

Masadi Mian ji:

"...the Taliban did not exist before 9/11, other than for a very brief period when the Bamiyan Buddhas were destroyed...."

Which equal opportunity cave were you sharing? You indeed have impotent pen (thanks Shandana).

itne red flags?

Re: # 51

Your humble request is denied, you may not ask.

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Re: # 50

Masadi Mian:

"...all your menopausal pen could achieve was a copy paste?..."

Behave here.

Red Flagger

Suffering from motor skill disorder?

Re: # 47

Masadi Ji .... I have always maintained (right from the day I read your comments on Pervez Hoodbhoy's article) that we NEED more people like you in pakistan...

You dont need to convince me that you are right indeed .... and of course the company of Romair is just the icing on the cake...

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shandana writes "why masadi sahib, what an impotent little pen you have..."

Is that why you couldn't respond to even one point I raised in my post and all your menopausal pen could achieve was a copy paste?

TNITC masadi

Re: # 35

Shandana

In a civilized world we must keep talking with people but what to do when the other side understands only one thing and that unfortunately is the use of violence? Taliban or the so-called collection of people have demonstrated their intolerant, violent means in Afghanistan back in the nineties and again now in Pakistan territories, so how can we sit back and wait for some intellectual discourse to solve the problem. Take the example of Nazi Germany, had the allies not retaliated or defended their way of life then Nazi Germany would have survived with devastating results. Maybe such an action is needed with this militant Ideology.

why masadi sahib, what an impotent little pen you have. is that why you work so hard to get a rise out of other people?

more bad news for moderate pakistani's i'm afraid, cut and paste below from the blog of someone who was supposed to perform at the shanaakht festival in karachi tonight. more food for thought about physical violence as the preferred means of engagement with issues:

"The PPP attacks the Shanaakht Festival, destroys the exhibit at the Arts Council
We have just been informed that a few hours ago, around 7:3o pm Pakistan time, a large mob of PPP activists stormed the Arts Council which was hosting the Shanaakht Festival. The mob was protesting the display of a photograph in the art exhibit section that showed a photo-shopped image of an infant Benazir Bhutto sitting in the lap of General Zia-Ul-Haq.

The mob destroyed the entire exhibit and physically threatened the workers of The Citizens Archive and all the volunteers/workers for the Shanaakht Festival.

We were slated to perform on the final day of the festival along with Fuzon, Noori, Taal Karisma and The Kolachi Quartet. As of right now,all the events for all the days of the Shanaakht Festival, has been cancelled.

Now that I've given you the news, I can't begin to tell you depth of the anger me and my band members are feeling. The Shanaakht Festival is extremely close to our hearts as well as the people organizing it. We performed at the original one and we were looking forward to sharing the stage with our idols Noori and Fuzon. We are sitting in my living room, and I have been on the verge of tears on numerous occasions. Some of my closest friends were in The Arts Council when they were attacked by the mob. According to them, the more they pleaded with the mob to stop the more they destroyed.

There is no difference between the militants in the North and the Pakistan People's Party today. None. We have two groups of people who have spread a doctrine of hate, intolerance and violence. The people who were putting this show together have been working at it for the last 2 years. It was by the people of Pakistan for the people of Pakistan. The theme of the show was 'identity' and we were looking to establish, ro take back the Pakistani identity. I guess all we have to show for it now is an identity of violence and victimization."

Wiseguyin, you can put my post and bulleya's post on one side and this article and the comments of all the apologists of the West on the other and you can be damn sure who emerges the intellectual winner in this debate.....

TNITC masadi

Akbar Hussain bhai is ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.

This is a FAKE VIDEO.

And the JEWS MADE IT. THE BHINDIANS DONT have the technology...

All is well...
:)

And why is this kind of dirt being published and why are dozens of my articles being censored by these miserable chowk staff, this is what needs to be settled right here right now.

TNITC masadi

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AkbarHussein: I think those who started "arguing over this video" (to use your phrase, did indeed do so in order to "strengthen the taliban" (s you say). Or more accurately, to protect them.

So - is the answer to let those who have made this video the issue and (worse) the victim herself the issue (by making up claims that she had loose morals)? If you are serious about "my country", then try not to confuse Pakistanis by making the video and the victim the issue.

PS: Making "deals" with them and handing over terrirtory... that doesn't work...

Re: # 39
[...My nation is the worst sufferer at the hands of these taliban ba$tards ...]

which you yourself created and supported...

anyhoo - forget the video, what exactly are you doing to stop taliban?...

#33
Your pain is understandable.
But "unfortunately" this is what jurisprudence and legal procedure is all about. If I charge you with theft, it is ME who needs to prove that you are thief, and not YOU who needs to prove that you are not a thief.
I apologize I couldn't go through your family biography in your comment.
This video proves nothing, not even who is doing it and where it was made.
#34
My nation is the worst sufferer at the hands of these taliban ba$tards and we are paying the biggest price. By arguing over THIS particular video, we are just strengthening that this is the best that can be brought against them to prove their barbarism.

and military dictatorship and mullahism (embodied by general Zia!) has proved a disastrous mix for Pakistan.

shandana: the women left the front page a long time ago. you will too, no doubt. but welcome back in the meantime.

The amount of damage done to Pakistan by this hodge podge of ignorance, superstitions, and primitive traditions of brutalizing the weak that is covered up by the mask of "Islam" is the reason Pakistan is today the basket case of the world.

Re: # 29 Akbar

Look - things have already come to a head... you can act now and nip it in the bud, or wait until a real, authentic, foolproof video shows up... that "video" most likely will be the one that may be happening real time in front of your eyes - to yourself or somebody you know...

It will too late by then...

the killing of the three women workers was just the latest in a string of such incidents. this has been happening with greater frequency in pakistan over the last decade.

three things keep popping up in the interacts so far.
1) this is not a problem created by barbaric savages, this kind of brutality is in fact built into islam. we cannot vanquish it till we vanquish the religion from our lives. in my books, that kind of attitude doesn't dignify a response
2) the video is fake, therefore we don't need to talk about its implication. first of all, sources that i would trust a lot more than sources i wouldn't suggest the video is not fake. second, even if it were fake, there are many other videos of the taliban commiting a hundred other atrocities in various parts of this region since they let loose. so to say we should not talk about their crimes because the video might be fake is just plain silly.
3) people who oppose this kind of extremism are extremists themselves. yeah. probably. the thing is, it's kinda hard to take a stand when you're sitting on a fence. i'm not advocating, as someone suggested, eradicating anyone and everyone who is a part of this movement named The Taliban. taliban translates simply into student of islam, but over the years it has come to be most closely associated with this collection of people, appropriated by them, given up without a fight by others who might seek a different path, which is perhaps part of the problem.

can i offer any solutions? sadly, no. except we must keep educating people as opposed to indoctrinating them, and we must keep talking.

also, i know i haven't been here for a long long time, but didn't there used to be women on chowk?

AkbarHussein: There is a determined efforts by Taliban sympathizers to label this video a fake. Only beghairats and traitors will join these efforts.

#29 by Akbarhussain

"If I would bring an evidence to charge someone, jurisprudence puts the burden on me to prove its genuinity"

Really? And how does one do that? What is process? What is the method jurisprudence will recognise as "correct" for a video?

So by same token you are saying it is fake, or, at any rate you are saying it could be fake, then should not I ask you to prove your claim? You are saying it could be fake, and I am saying prove it. It is not enough to say that it "could" be fake. Burden is on you because you are challenging.

Your mother might have slept with another man (not your father). Therefore, she has indeed slept with another man. Therefore, you might not be son of your father. Therefore, you are not son of your father. Does such argument sound logical to you? Now if you claim that you are son of your father and I am contesting that then onus of proving that you are son of your father should be on me or on you?

Forget about onus. I am just asking what is the method to be followed? For your paternity DNA evidence is used. For proving genuinity of video onus is on me. Granted. My question to you is you (or a court) will reject simply because it could have been made by spending a few thousand rupees? Will it not accept it at least as prima facie evidence. And bother about genuinity only after someone contests its genuinity? For "fakeness" of video onus is on you to prove because you are saying that it could be fake. So you prove that is is fake.

And what are the methods that will be used? To prove genuinity what method will be used? To prove fakeness what method will be used?

Shandana

Well said, please do keep writing.

On a separate note, four NGO workers were killed in Mansehra and their odies jumped in the jungle. Three of the killed were women their only crime working being women and justification given by the killers 'foreign' funded agencies.

Re: # 11

Add Sita White and her daughter to the list please, hypocrisy has no bounds.

It's the Jews yet again, people!!

#27
Totally agreed. They HAD been doing and still ARE doing all these, but still, using THIS video to try ANY reasonable argument is like discussing a UFO-sighting video (hundreds available) to prove extra-terrestrial life, for example. You guys are strengthening the view point that this is the best we can come up with.
#28
If I would bring an evidence to charge someone, jurisprudence puts the burden on me to prove its genuinity, not the one on whom the charge is put against to disprove its genuinity. Such videos have no jurisprudential value whatsoever.

#26

"apparently fake videos"

Can you describe the method one can use to identify this video as fake? Dont argue that "such a video anyone can make by spending a couple of thousand rupees" therefore indeed "it has been made by spending a couple of thousand rupees".

Re: # 26 akbar

let's say the video is fake, so what?... these are the kind of things is what taliban have done before, in fact this all they do... flogging, chopping, beheading etc... Who cares the video is fake - you should take this as an opportunity to take out these guys...

Re # 22, 23, 24
You guys totally missed the point.
I am bitterly against these taliban ba$tards. But if you bring up conclusions based on these apparently fake videos, wouldn't it give someone a chance to say, "So if it is the best evidence you can come up with, you can easily understand where the allegations stand". You are simply supporting them by giving importance to such a video which anyone can make by spending a couple of thousand rupees.

Atleast one paki gets it...

"what common Muslims in Pakistan do not want to admit is that religion cannot be adopted as state ideology. If religion is accepted as state ideology, the theocrats will take over sooner or later. When Pakistan declared itself a religious state, the mullahs genuinely thought they had a right to impose their will on all citizens, as they have been trying to do since the creation of Pakistan.
......
The urban middle classes of Pakistan, consumed by anti-Hindu and anti-Jew passions fuelled by an obscurantist education system, also believed that there is no contradiction between them rapidly embracing modernism in everyday life and accepting religion as state ideology.
"

http://dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=200948story_8- 4-2009_pg3_3

Re: # 21
akber....
I am not concluding anything...if at all by talibs, then which type of talibs (I have heard that there are good talibans and bad talibans, in the eyes of Pakistanis) were involved in this incident?

#18 by Akbarhussain

...but if ask me to believe that on the basis of THIS video, I may have to believe in Alien invasions, UFOs, James Bond, Spider Man etc too.

When the Taliban were ruling the roost in Afghanistan and some folks expressed the possibility of there being a spillover into Pakistan, people like you displayed the same head-buried-in-sand attitude as you're doing now. Now that Swat and other places are already in the Taliban's hand, time you brought out your head out of your you-know-what.

#18 by Akbarhussain

...but if ask me to believe that on the basis of THIS video, I may have to believe in Alien invasions, UFOs, James Bond, Spider Man etc too.

When the Taliban were ruling the roost in Afghanistan and some folks expressed the possibility of there being a spillover into Pakistan, people like you displayed the same head-buried-in-sand attitude as you're doing now. Now that Swat and other places are already in the Taliban's hand, time you brought out your head out of your you-know-what.

Re: # 20
"Is this flogging carried out by good taliban or bad taliban (in the eyes of Pakis).....?"
...or by taliban at all?
How did you reach a conclusion who is doing it, by watching THIS video?

Shandana...
"The second is that somehow their barbarism is justified, their brand of Islam prompted (‘brand’? When did Islam become toothpaste?)..."

to hide the real islam, muslas living in civlised world (US,UK,India etc...) created brand new islam, with less barbarism, less violence and thjat supports some human civility....

This is very stupid to conclude from one or two such incidents....so many girls get molested in Delhi every hour...

Sandana....
Is this flogging carried out by good taliban or bad taliban (in the eyes of Pakis).....?

#18 Posted by Akbarhussain on April 8, 2009 5:49:23 am


as rape or murder in any part or the world, not excluding USA, UK,


Groups created and backed by the US are raping women in the US without fear of prosecution?

get your head out of your ass...because your ass may be the next to get flogged by the talipakis...

Such incidents may be common in certain parts of Pakistan or Afghanistan, just as rape or murder in any part or the world, not excluding USA, UK, etc, but if ask me to believe that on the basis of THIS video, I may have to believe in Alien invasions, UFOs, James Bond, Spider Man etc too.

#17 Shermast
Next you would ask the right of truancy for school children, or right of drug abuse by people. Is it difficult for you to think sanely? Go get some help.

Talk of womans right in islamic or conservative societies is hypocritical...until such societies give the women a right to enjoy sex outside of marriage any talk about thier rights is meanigless.

#11 Posted by bulleya on April 7, 2009 11:35:17 pm


so what does this tell us......


it tells us you are a dhobi ka paki...na allah ka na amreeka ka...

#13 Posted by muqaddam on April 8, 2009 3:55:43 am

dude..not even close...not even in the same ball park...

the sati guys were prosecuted...the taliban has taken over large parts of pakiland...the taliban are backed by the paki state..

#13, No, this is not about same/same. Violence against women occurs everywhere, but it is not justified in the name of religion everywhere.

We in the Indian subcontinent like to call ourselves cultured, no matter Hindu or Muslim, yet our barbaric instincts keep popping up once in a while making us forget that we are human beings.
Roughly twenty years ago a young bride was forced to commit the inhuman practice of sati in Rajsthan.
So whether it is Roop Kanwar who was burnt on her husband's pyre or this Pakistani girl who was flogged by the barbaric Talibs, we are in the same boat.

Perhaps people are protesting more passionately now because they finally realize their incompetent leaders’ statements, rooted as ever in self interest, will never mirror the intensity, or sincerity, of their own revulsion.

Shandana, the real reason why Pakis (at least the educated ones in the cities) are waking up to this threat is because it is now too close for comfort. They have started to realize that one of these days, it could be them at the receiving end of the lashes. Earlier, this possibility never occurred to them because it was mostly the tribals in a far off world who indulged in such stuff; it wasn't their thing.

the issues regarding women's rights in pakistan are, actually, bigger than what is being discussed here....there is no excuse for what happened to this girl......that is not even debatable......

......the problem in pakistan is that very few people actually believe in women's rights, as a principle......most people use women and the concept of women's rights to promote their political beliefs.....much the usa invading iraq to promote democracy or afghanistan to help afghani women.....the concept of democracy and women's rights used to push a political agenda.....

.....it is interesting to note on this site that the same people who support and justify (read tahmad et al) and at the very least, subtly, legitimise the abduction of another pakistan woman - afia siddiqui - are on the forefront of condemning this incidence.....

similarly, if this girl had been killed as collateral damage in a drone attack, the same people (read hamidm mian et al) would have defended not the girl's right to live, but the drone strike.....

similarly, the same party - mqm - that carried out a huge rally in support of this girl, also was on the forefront of burning other woman lawyers, in karachi....and never carried out any rallies, in fact supported, the killing of similar girls by us drones.....

on the other hand, the same people (read urstruly et al) who are trying hard to legitimise this act against this girl, were on the forefront of protesting in favor of afia siddiqui....

so what does this tell us......

....it tells us that no one (or very few people) actually is cared in the women's rights aspect of such issues.....what they consciously or sub-consciously do is to use such incidents to push their own political ideologies.....i.e. their support and oppostion is based, not on women's rights, but on who is committing the act.....(usa, mqm, taliban etc.)......

in my opinion, all the above acts against women should be condemned, if one uses the principle of women's rights.....if one were to rank them in order of barbarity, i would rank them as follows:

1. burning of women lawyers (mqm - secular)
2. killing of women by drones (usa - secular)
3. abduction of women and keeping them in hiding, for years (usa/musharraf - secular)
4. flogging of women in public (taliban - ignorantly religious)

until someone condemns all of the above, unconditionally, without any leanings towards the entity committing the crime, i am afraid the concern about women's rights is not going to go too far.......

Re: # 7

Salim sahib:

"...negotiating a victory that could never be attained through an election, or making a nation of 170 million appear helpless. Yes - helpless, leaderless, and, worst of all, hating themselves, for "sharing" a religion with these murdering serial mass killers and enemies of our faith and our nation...."

This is so Churchillian. Bravo. No one wonder I am fan of your writings outside certain elements that creep in your posts on UP. Such thinking should not stop at it, think and express solutions just as eloquently also.

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mystery solved....the joooos did it..personally i know it was the jews when I heard all jews were missing from the flogging...that was a dead giveaway...

JUI-F minister terms Swat flogging a Jewish plot

KARACHI: Federal Minister Senator Azam Khan Swati of the Jamiat Ulema-e-Islam (JUI-F) said on Saturday that the flogging of the 17-year-old girl in Swat was a Jewish conspiracy aimed at destroying peace in Swat and distort the image of those Islamists who sport beards and wear turbans. Speaking at a reception hosted by the JUI-F Karachi Chapter in his honour, Swati said that the JUI-F may part ways with the PPP-led coalition government if drone attacks continue to violate the sovereignty of Pakistan. “We shall not tolerate the violation of our country’s sovereignty through drone attacks,� he said, adding that under a deep-rooted conspiracy, the Pakistan Army was being defamed. He said that the ISI might be modernised on the lines that they bring a bad name to its reputation among Pakistanis.He said that the US administration has declared Baitullah Mehsud as its enemy and approved financial aid for the Pakistan government for actions against people such as Mehsud. “There are apprehensions that the US administration may turn Pakistan into the next Afghanistan on the pretext of an operation against terrorists as they did with Afghanistan in the name of Osama Bin Laden,� said Swati. The JUI-F minister expressed concern over the fact that the US might target Pakistan’s nuclear installations, adding that we must be careful. “It is unfortunate that we long for water and electricity in this age of advancement,� he lamented, while also condemning the killings of Pukhtoons in interior Sindh. Qari Usman, Qari Sher Afzal and Maulana Abdul Karim Abid of the JUI-F also spoke on the occasion. staff report

{"The second is that somehow their barbarism is justified, their brand of Islam prompted (‘brand’? When did Islam become toothpaste?) by America’s war on terror. The Taliban existed before the drone attacks began. They existed before 9/11 happened. They were dismembering dissidents and hanging their bodies from lamp posts, assaulting girls during the capture of ‘enemy territory’ and carrying out the Balkan style ethnic cleansing of minorities in Afghanistan long before the word Predator entered our local lexicon.

As for who created them, who funded them, who set them on the path that puts them in direct confrontation with just about everyone else, that is something that is good to know and pointless to dwell on. Good to know, because ‘history is written by those who survive their past’. Pointless to dwell on, because wallowing serves a useful purpose only for buffalos. "}

Shandana,
Very well-written and timely article with brilliantly worded messages as noted above. No wonder I am such a fan of your articles. I love your question regarding the Taliban's "brand" of Islam and the futility of debating who is responsible for the Taliban.

Who cares? The fact is that they are still here and getting more outrageous with every idiotic "success" - be it defeating the Pak Army, negotiating a victory that could never be attained through an election, or making a nation of 170 million appear helpless. Yes - helpless, leaderless, and, worst of all, hating themselves, for "sharing" a religion with these murdering serial mass killers and enemies of our faith and our nation. Good job.

Salim Ahmed Chauhan

Today I congratulate everyone because Gen Zia’a dream has been fulfilled as a teenaged girl was flogged in Swat. Also let me congratulate, Imran Khan, the Jama’at-e-Islami leadership, Lt-Gen Hameed Gul, the ANP government in the NWFP, the majority of Urdu-language columnists, some English ones too as they support making deals with Taliban. Video of a young girl being flogged as ‘punishment’ by the Taliban in Swat has shocked everyone in the civilized World. It is shameful that religious parties appeared reluctant to openly condemn the case of lashing of a 17-year-old girl in Swat while not giving any clear statement regarding the unfortunate incident. What a shameful act these so-called Taliban did. I am also proud of those men who were watching this innocent helpless victim of atrocity, watching the spectacle mutely either in approval or dumbfounded and afraid of uttering a word against it lest it be termed as anti-Islam and they themselves were meted out the same treatment. Hearing that poor girl's cries grown up men stood and watched her being beaten just makes me sick to the stomach. What a message we are sending to the civilized World.Jamaat-e-Islami says this is a "minor matter" and people should focus on drone attacks by the US (thus demonstrating their hypocrisy and savagery). This was one of the barbaric acts of Taliban, so far we knew that they hang dead bodies to tress but now we have learned that in the past women were punished like this inside rooms. The videotape shown on television and displayed on websites wasn't the only time that a woman was publicly canned by the Taliban. However, no videotape of the other incident, which took place on Oct 20, 2008, is available in which a woman and her father-in-law were flogged in Ser-Taligram village near Manglawar in Charbagh tehsil. It is also sad to read some people's comments who are living in denial. Those who have a serious doubt as immediately after the whipping the "victim" got up and walked away without a limp." Any sane person would laugh at this nonsense if the situation weren’t so dire. If the video was fake, then why did the Taliban accept responsibility and claim they had done the right thing? Everything is a conspiracy to those who are in state of denial. They have lost ability to think, reason and to be logical. Speaking from psychological point of view that innocent girl must be so embarrassed that she did not want to be there, that’s why she got up fast. Those who are living in denial expect from this girl to say thanks to those Taliban and had offered them flowers, that’s what anyone who is denying this incident expects from that girl. That poor girl must have been in agony and I wonder what happened to her once they took her away. Those who are living in denial, those who think this incident was fake, remember Taliban would publicly whip your sisters, mothers, daughters and wives and when you will get out of your state of denial, it will be too late. It is also unfortunate that ANP leadership has abandoned its own people to the Taliban by making deals with them. No one can give justification for such an act. These handful of people have taken the population hostage, and the government is trying to patronize them. If the state surrenders, what will happen next? Those who are thinking that this video is fake should read writing on the wall. It was indeed like a lash on the faces of the chief minister of NWFP, the prime minister, the president, the legislators and most importantly, on the faces of every civilized Pakistani and Pukhtun . Its also true that the monster of terrorism is indeed on the prowl, unhindered and unchecked, targeting at will whatever and whoever it wants. It is obvious that the state has been unable and unwilling to address the threat posed by Al Qaeda and the Taliban. For the most part, the religious lot of the country has quietly and not so quietly supported the terrorists. The people of Pukhtunkhwa have been held hostage by Taliban, Pukhtuns' land is burning. What Taliban are doing is plain barbarism. When a religion is taken over by militants and zealots this is what you get.
It is a fact that Taliban existed before the drone attacks began.

The article had a promising start but descends into paranoid self righteous, inaccurate (albeit witty& well written) nonsense.The writer talks about dispelling the illusions setup by the media but is okay with the ones which have deluded her.
Ill point her biggest fallacy, grouping every bearded person from Pakistan to Afghanistan under the moniker of "taliban".The ultimate straw man. Now you can argue quite successfully against TNSM goons in swat and their arbitrary "Justice" but lumping them against someone in Afghanistan who is fighting an occupying force is not fair is it(Or for that matter,someone fighting the Pakistan military machine after it levels there village)??
Basically her point is "We dont negotiate with 'terrorists' so carpet bomb those bearded fundos" by which she actually means most of NWFP and all of tribal areas to save that poor girl (and the cd shops and profession of barbers). As Robespere said "No one likes missionaries with guns" be they taliban or secular progressive feminazis...

She incredulously also asks us not dwell on History, as only buffolos wallow?? The what is the point of knowing any History then, Trivia?.What a stupid thing to say.As Zinn likes to say if you don't know history its as if you were born yesterday.Unfortunately for her we weren't born yesterday. My advice to her is to get a history lesson or two before preaching ignorance & Inaction for the rest of us.

She couldn't bring her self to lament on other hard to digest things that the media is all quite about or just mentions in the passing.How much do you hear about the 40,000 refuges pakistanis who are living in camps vacated by Afghans right now.Where was all this outrage when When 84 children were burnt alive by hell fire missiles back in 2004 & Pakistan military took responsibility (and the so many times since them).Or the fact that thousands are being held in concentration camps all over Baluchistan. Now I am not saying that what happened to that young women wasn't tragic. What I am saying is that any media industry is easy to manipulate and Pakistani media toes the establishment line very closely.There is nothing free about it.Expecting truth is stupidity. A commentator like the writer should know this by now.

"The second is that somehow their barbarism is justified, their brand of Islam prompted (‘brand’? When did Islam become toothpaste?) by America’s war on terror."

I have no other comment to offer but I can comment on an issue of language. When a thing as nebulous as Islam is being talked about everyone puts his spin on what it is. When a person's sum total of writings and sayings on Islam is looked upon it is perfectly valid to talk about XYZ's brand of Islam. It is just a way to classify XYZ's viewpoints and compare and contrast with average view of people on Islam. In this, don't you think that it has happened? That, Taliban is manufacturing a brand of Islam different from average Pakistani's brand of Islam? Why express outrage at such usage? Come on, it is just an expression. It happens with all religions. As time goes all religions are interpreted in a variety of ways. When these varieties become too different groups showing allegiance to different interpretations often fight. Do you think Islam has fallen from sky complete with guarantee that it shall not have variety of interpretations? Do you think Islam is so "special"? No it is not. Actually part of the problem is the naive belief of its followers that it is a perfect religion which shall and must remain unchanged. And any attempt to change or think through with our imperfect minds what hallucinating pedophile actually meant, when he said this or that, should be branded as unacceptable revisionism which may happen to other "lesser" religions of planet earth but not Islam. Come on you must be crazy. Brands happen. Accept it. Not accepting it is same kind of denial that you accuse other people of indulging in.

Yep - change the lightbbulb - while at it, don't forget to change textbooks - it all comes from there, the K for Kafir education(thanks jayp)

(Side Note: I had seen this piece on “The News� and was feeling tempted to post on UP but decided not to, just in case...and presto!)

Shandana, people ought to allow room for dissidence and show tolerance for views and faiths other than their own. That is the only way for a diverse society to survive and with globalization, we are all members of a diverse society -- in fact, the most diverse society there has ever been in history.

A healthy, strong, minority is a prerequisite for ANY society to develop such a tolerance. That is why, the racists of the past always believed in segregated societies. They were afraid inside that exposure to the “other� might change the outlook of the “own� by making the latter question their deeply believed falsities and their groundless pre-conceived notions. That is why I think that Jinnah did a great disservice to the subcontinent by breaking it up and creating what became essentially a segregationists’ dreamland.. The Jinnahs of the world are like that! They brook no dissidence.

Regarding your question – “why now, but not before?� the answer is: “putting a focus does make a difference!� In the past, the technology lagged and it was not possible to reproduce, scrutinize and file for the future the lessons of episodes like the flogging event mentioned here. Now it is. But the men of the media are not adjusting fast enough to the new realities. Some of them are too busy merely surviving!

The Taliban is the antithesis of what a tolerant society would be. The Taliban (and its thought process of mind control) does not represent the mainstream anywhere – including among the Muslims. The seed of intolerance that Jinnah sowed has unfortunately grown into a strong tree whose roots are spreading all over and sapping the inherent vitality of the land on which it stands. I doubt the past generations – who were instrumental in its planting and who unwittingly nurtured it over the decades – are in any position to address it. Perhaps the children of our children may have a chance to see the light...

... and change the lightbulb!

kuch nahin ho sakta hai.......Bibi should surrender to the true ISlam of Talibs and buy a long burqa for the times to come in pure land......

and she should not go out without a mahram...