Lashes to lashes, dust to dust

kuch nahin ho sakta hai.......Bibi should surrender to the true ISlam of Talibs and buy a long burqa for the times to come in pure land......

and she should not go out without a mahram...

(Side Note: I had seen this piece on “The News� and was feeling tempted to post on UP but decided not to, just in case...and presto!)

Shandana, people ought to allow room for dissidence and show tolerance for views and faiths other than their own. That is the only way for a diverse society to survive and with globalization, we are all members of a diverse society -- in fact, the most diverse society there has ever been in history.

A healthy, strong, minority is a prerequisite for ANY society to develop such a tolerance. That is why, the racists of the past always believed in segregated societies. They were afraid inside that exposure to the “other� might change the outlook of the “own� by making the latter question their deeply believed falsities and their groundless pre-conceived notions. That is why I think that Jinnah did a great disservice to the subcontinent by breaking it up and creating what became essentially a segregationists’ dreamland.. The Jinnahs of the world are like that! They brook no dissidence.

Regarding your question – “why now, but not before?� the answer is: “putting a focus does make a difference!� In the past, the technology lagged and it was not possible to reproduce, scrutinize and file for the future the lessons of episodes like the flogging event mentioned here. Now it is. But the men of the media are not adjusting fast enough to the new realities. Some of them are too busy merely surviving!

The Taliban is the antithesis of what a tolerant society would be. The Taliban (and its thought process of mind control) does not represent the mainstream anywhere – including among the Muslims. The seed of intolerance that Jinnah sowed has unfortunately grown into a strong tree whose roots are spreading all over and sapping the inherent vitality of the land on which it stands. I doubt the past generations – who were instrumental in its planting and who unwittingly nurtured it over the decades – are in any position to address it. Perhaps the children of our children may have a chance to see the light...

... and change the lightbulb!

Yep - change the lightbbulb - while at it, don't forget to change textbooks - it all comes from there, the K for Kafir education(thanks jayp)

"The second is that somehow their barbarism is justified, their brand of Islam prompted (‘brand’? When did Islam become toothpaste?) by America’s war on terror."

I have no other comment to offer but I can comment on an issue of language. When a thing as nebulous as Islam is being talked about everyone puts his spin on what it is. When a person's sum total of writings and sayings on Islam is looked upon it is perfectly valid to talk about XYZ's brand of Islam. It is just a way to classify XYZ's viewpoints and compare and contrast with average view of people on Islam. In this, don't you think that it has happened? That, Taliban is manufacturing a brand of Islam different from average Pakistani's brand of Islam? Why express outrage at such usage? Come on, it is just an expression. It happens with all religions. As time goes all religions are interpreted in a variety of ways. When these varieties become too different groups showing allegiance to different interpretations often fight. Do you think Islam has fallen from sky complete with guarantee that it shall not have variety of interpretations? Do you think Islam is so "special"? No it is not. Actually part of the problem is the naive belief of its followers that it is a perfect religion which shall and must remain unchanged. And any attempt to change or think through with our imperfect minds what hallucinating pedophile actually meant, when he said this or that, should be branded as unacceptable revisionism which may happen to other "lesser" religions of planet earth but not Islam. Come on you must be crazy. Brands happen. Accept it. Not accepting it is same kind of denial that you accuse other people of indulging in.

The article had a promising start but descends into paranoid self righteous, inaccurate (albeit witty& well written) nonsense.The writer talks about dispelling the illusions setup by the media but is okay with the ones which have deluded her.
Ill point her biggest fallacy, grouping every bearded person from Pakistan to Afghanistan under the moniker of "taliban".The ultimate straw man. Now you can argue quite successfully against TNSM goons in swat and their arbitrary "Justice" but lumping them against someone in Afghanistan who is fighting an occupying force is not fair is it(Or for that matter,someone fighting the Pakistan military machine after it levels there village)??
Basically her point is "We dont negotiate with 'terrorists' so carpet bomb those bearded fundos" by which she actually means most of NWFP and all of tribal areas to save that poor girl (and the cd shops and profession of barbers). As Robespere said "No one likes missionaries with guns" be they taliban or secular progressive feminazis...

She incredulously also asks us not dwell on History, as only buffolos wallow?? The what is the point of knowing any History then, Trivia?.What a stupid thing to say.As Zinn likes to say if you don't know history its as if you were born yesterday.Unfortunately for her we weren't born yesterday. My advice to her is to get a history lesson or two before preaching ignorance & Inaction for the rest of us.

She couldn't bring her self to lament on other hard to digest things that the media is all quite about or just mentions in the passing.How much do you hear about the 40,000 refuges pakistanis who are living in camps vacated by Afghans right now.Where was all this outrage when When 84 children were burnt alive by hell fire missiles back in 2004 & Pakistan military took responsibility (and the so many times since them).Or the fact that thousands are being held in concentration camps all over Baluchistan. Now I am not saying that what happened to that young women wasn't tragic. What I am saying is that any media industry is easy to manipulate and Pakistani media toes the establishment line very closely.There is nothing free about it.Expecting truth is stupidity. A commentator like the writer should know this by now.

Today I congratulate everyone because Gen Zia’a dream has been fulfilled as a teenaged girl was flogged in Swat. Also let me congratulate, Imran Khan, the Jama’at-e-Islami leadership, Lt-Gen Hameed Gul, the ANP government in the NWFP, the majority of Urdu-language columnists, some English ones too as they support making deals with Taliban. Video of a young girl being flogged as ‘punishment’ by the Taliban in Swat has shocked everyone in the civilized World. It is shameful that religious parties appeared reluctant to openly condemn the case of lashing of a 17-year-old girl in Swat while not giving any clear statement regarding the unfortunate incident. What a shameful act these so-called Taliban did. I am also proud of those men who were watching this innocent helpless victim of atrocity, watching the spectacle mutely either in approval or dumbfounded and afraid of uttering a word against it lest it be termed as anti-Islam and they themselves were meted out the same treatment. Hearing that poor girl's cries grown up men stood and watched her being beaten just makes me sick to the stomach. What a message we are sending to the civilized World.Jamaat-e-Islami says this is a "minor matter" and people should focus on drone attacks by the US (thus demonstrating their hypocrisy and savagery). This was one of the barbaric acts of Taliban, so far we knew that they hang dead bodies to tress but now we have learned that in the past women were punished like this inside rooms. The videotape shown on television and displayed on websites wasn't the only time that a woman was publicly canned by the Taliban. However, no videotape of the other incident, which took place on Oct 20, 2008, is available in which a woman and her father-in-law were flogged in Ser-Taligram village near Manglawar in Charbagh tehsil. It is also sad to read some people's comments who are living in denial. Those who have a serious doubt as immediately after the whipping the "victim" got up and walked away without a limp." Any sane person would laugh at this nonsense if the situation weren’t so dire. If the video was fake, then why did the Taliban accept responsibility and claim they had done the right thing? Everything is a conspiracy to those who are in state of denial. They have lost ability to think, reason and to be logical. Speaking from psychological point of view that innocent girl must be so embarrassed that she did not want to be there, that’s why she got up fast. Those who are living in denial expect from this girl to say thanks to those Taliban and had offered them flowers, that’s what anyone who is denying this incident expects from that girl. That poor girl must have been in agony and I wonder what happened to her once they took her away. Those who are living in denial, those who think this incident was fake, remember Taliban would publicly whip your sisters, mothers, daughters and wives and when you will get out of your state of denial, it will be too late. It is also unfortunate that ANP leadership has abandoned its own people to the Taliban by making deals with them. No one can give justification for such an act. These handful of people have taken the population hostage, and the government is trying to patronize them. If the state surrenders, what will happen next? Those who are thinking that this video is fake should read writing on the wall. It was indeed like a lash on the faces of the chief minister of NWFP, the prime minister, the president, the legislators and most importantly, on the faces of every civilized Pakistani and Pukhtun . Its also true that the monster of terrorism is indeed on the prowl, unhindered and unchecked, targeting at will whatever and whoever it wants. It is obvious that the state has been unable and unwilling to address the threat posed by Al Qaeda and the Taliban. For the most part, the religious lot of the country has quietly and not so quietly supported the terrorists. The people of Pukhtunkhwa have been held hostage by Taliban, Pukhtuns' land is burning. What Taliban are doing is plain barbarism. When a religion is taken over by militants and zealots this is what you get.
It is a fact that Taliban existed before the drone attacks began.

{"The second is that somehow their barbarism is justified, their brand of Islam prompted (‘brand’? When did Islam become toothpaste?) by America’s war on terror. The Taliban existed before the drone attacks began. They existed before 9/11 happened. They were dismembering dissidents and hanging their bodies from lamp posts, assaulting girls during the capture of ‘enemy territory’ and carrying out the Balkan style ethnic cleansing of minorities in Afghanistan long before the word Predator entered our local lexicon.

As for who created them, who funded them, who set them on the path that puts them in direct confrontation with just about everyone else, that is something that is good to know and pointless to dwell on. Good to know, because ‘history is written by those who survive their past’. Pointless to dwell on, because wallowing serves a useful purpose only for buffalos. "}

Shandana,
Very well-written and timely article with brilliantly worded messages as noted above. No wonder I am such a fan of your articles. I love your question regarding the Taliban's "brand" of Islam and the futility of debating who is responsible for the Taliban.

Who cares? The fact is that they are still here and getting more outrageous with every idiotic "success" - be it defeating the Pak Army, negotiating a victory that could never be attained through an election, or making a nation of 170 million appear helpless. Yes - helpless, leaderless, and, worst of all, hating themselves, for "sharing" a religion with these murdering serial mass killers and enemies of our faith and our nation. Good job.

Salim Ahmed Chauhan

mystery solved....the joooos did it..personally i know it was the jews when I heard all jews were missing from the flogging...that was a dead giveaway...

JUI-F minister terms Swat flogging a Jewish plot

KARACHI: Federal Minister Senator Azam Khan Swati of the Jamiat Ulema-e-Islam (JUI-F) said on Saturday that the flogging of the 17-year-old girl in Swat was a Jewish conspiracy aimed at destroying peace in Swat and distort the image of those Islamists who sport beards and wear turbans. Speaking at a reception hosted by the JUI-F Karachi Chapter in his honour, Swati said that the JUI-F may part ways with the PPP-led coalition government if drone attacks continue to violate the sovereignty of Pakistan. “We shall not tolerate the violation of our country’s sovereignty through drone attacks,� he said, adding that under a deep-rooted conspiracy, the Pakistan Army was being defamed. He said that the ISI might be modernised on the lines that they bring a bad name to its reputation among Pakistanis.He said that the US administration has declared Baitullah Mehsud as its enemy and approved financial aid for the Pakistan government for actions against people such as Mehsud. “There are apprehensions that the US administration may turn Pakistan into the next Afghanistan on the pretext of an operation against terrorists as they did with Afghanistan in the name of Osama Bin Laden,� said Swati. The JUI-F minister expressed concern over the fact that the US might target Pakistan’s nuclear installations, adding that we must be careful. “It is unfortunate that we long for water and electricity in this age of advancement,� he lamented, while also condemning the killings of Pukhtoons in interior Sindh. Qari Usman, Qari Sher Afzal and Maulana Abdul Karim Abid of the JUI-F also spoke on the occasion. staff report

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Re: # 7

Salim sahib:

"...negotiating a victory that could never be attained through an election, or making a nation of 170 million appear helpless. Yes - helpless, leaderless, and, worst of all, hating themselves, for "sharing" a religion with these murdering serial mass killers and enemies of our faith and our nation...."

This is so Churchillian. Bravo. No one wonder I am fan of your writings outside certain elements that creep in your posts on UP. Such thinking should not stop at it, think and express solutions just as eloquently also.

the issues regarding women's rights in pakistan are, actually, bigger than what is being discussed here....there is no excuse for what happened to this girl......that is not even debatable......

......the problem in pakistan is that very few people actually believe in women's rights, as a principle......most people use women and the concept of women's rights to promote their political beliefs.....much the usa invading iraq to promote democracy or afghanistan to help afghani women.....the concept of democracy and women's rights used to push a political agenda.....

.....it is interesting to note on this site that the same people who support and justify (read tahmad et al) and at the very least, subtly, legitimise the abduction of another pakistan woman - afia siddiqui - are on the forefront of condemning this incidence.....

similarly, if this girl had been killed as collateral damage in a drone attack, the same people (read hamidm mian et al) would have defended not the girl's right to live, but the drone strike.....

similarly, the same party - mqm - that carried out a huge rally in support of this girl, also was on the forefront of burning other woman lawyers, in karachi....and never carried out any rallies, in fact supported, the killing of similar girls by us drones.....

on the other hand, the same people (read urstruly et al) who are trying hard to legitimise this act against this girl, were on the forefront of protesting in favor of afia siddiqui....

so what does this tell us......

....it tells us that no one (or very few people) actually is cared in the women's rights aspect of such issues.....what they consciously or sub-consciously do is to use such incidents to push their own political ideologies.....i.e. their support and oppostion is based, not on women's rights, but on who is committing the act.....(usa, mqm, taliban etc.)......

in my opinion, all the above acts against women should be condemned, if one uses the principle of women's rights.....if one were to rank them in order of barbarity, i would rank them as follows:

1. burning of women lawyers (mqm - secular)
2. killing of women by drones (usa - secular)
3. abduction of women and keeping them in hiding, for years (usa/musharraf - secular)
4. flogging of women in public (taliban - ignorantly religious)

until someone condemns all of the above, unconditionally, without any leanings towards the entity committing the crime, i am afraid the concern about women's rights is not going to go too far.......

Perhaps people are protesting more passionately now because they finally realize their incompetent leaders’ statements, rooted as ever in self interest, will never mirror the intensity, or sincerity, of their own revulsion.

Shandana, the real reason why Pakis (at least the educated ones in the cities) are waking up to this threat is because it is now too close for comfort. They have started to realize that one of these days, it could be them at the receiving end of the lashes. Earlier, this possibility never occurred to them because it was mostly the tribals in a far off world who indulged in such stuff; it wasn't their thing.

We in the Indian subcontinent like to call ourselves cultured, no matter Hindu or Muslim, yet our barbaric instincts keep popping up once in a while making us forget that we are human beings.
Roughly twenty years ago a young bride was forced to commit the inhuman practice of sati in Rajsthan.
So whether it is Roop Kanwar who was burnt on her husband's pyre or this Pakistani girl who was flogged by the barbaric Talibs, we are in the same boat.

#13, No, this is not about same/same. Violence against women occurs everywhere, but it is not justified in the name of religion everywhere.

#13 Posted by muqaddam on April 8, 2009 3:55:43 am

dude..not even close...not even in the same ball park...

the sati guys were prosecuted...the taliban has taken over large parts of pakiland...the taliban are backed by the paki state..

#11 Posted by bulleya on April 7, 2009 11:35:17 pm


so what does this tell us......


it tells us you are a dhobi ka paki...na allah ka na amreeka ka...