State of Denial
MD Waqar April 7, 2009
#1 Posted by iron_mask on April 8, 2009 12:50:49 pm
Some more Islamic Terrorists of the Mirpuri-Poonjabi persuation caught in Raids across the North west of UK
Topic started by iron_mask on Apr 8, 2009 12:10:07 pm
Raids across the North west of UK
(a) http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7990719.stm
(b)http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol /news/uk/crime/article6061914.ece
Ten Pakistan-born nationals were arrested this evening after a long covert surveillance operation involving MI5 and police officers from the North West Counter-Terrorism Unit. But the operation was nearly blown.
(c)http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/apr/08/counter-terrorism-ra ids-nort h-west
Topic started by iron_mask on Apr 8, 2009 12:10:07 pm
Raids across the North west of UK
(a) http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7990719.stm
(b)http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol /news/uk/crime/article6061914.ece
Ten Pakistan-born nationals were arrested this evening after a long covert surveillance operation involving MI5 and police officers from the North West Counter-Terrorism Unit. But the operation was nearly blown.
(c)http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/apr/08/counter-terrorism-ra ids-nort h-west
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#2 Posted by tahmed32 on April 8, 2009 2:01:29 pm
The Swat "deal" shows what Taliban think of deals with cowards...today they stepped out of Swat and are attacking the next district on the way to Islamabad - Buner. And locals are fighting and dying to save their homes from the Taliban. Pro-Taliban Pakistani traitors will soon get their wish of being taught "real Islam" by a whip-weilding Taliban.
Check this BBC news item: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7990401.stm
Check this BBC news item: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7990401.stm
#3 Posted by ajeya on April 8, 2009 7:33:14 pm
I don't think the taliban can be blamed. They are just reading their religious scripture and doing what it says, instead of "interpreting" it and making all kinds of adjustments, interpolations, extrapolations and reversals to make it consistent with what is considered in the non-Muslim world as human values.
While Chowk intellectuals are willing to be dishonest and make those "interpretations" (e.g muhammad's "love" for Ayesha was not a pedophile's lust, but a beautiful thing, muhammad's beheading of 700 innocent civilians was a-okay because he knew NOTHING about it, nor about their women and children sold as slaves, repeatedly raping a captive woman prisoner does NOT make you a monster - but a wonderful individual, the koran was not cooked up by mohammad for personal gain, but a divine thingy, the koran contains a wonderful "message" which no Muslim has ever been able to point out, and so on and so forth).
I feel sorry for all those young lives (and their families' lives) destroyed because of Islam - those teenage kids who should be enjoying life instead of strapping bombs to themselves because of this "religion". This monstrous "religion" will surely kill many before it can be eradicated, or at least mutated into a less harmful form.
While Chowk intellectuals are willing to be dishonest and make those "interpretations" (e.g muhammad's "love" for Ayesha was not a pedophile's lust, but a beautiful thing, muhammad's beheading of 700 innocent civilians was a-okay because he knew NOTHING about it, nor about their women and children sold as slaves, repeatedly raping a captive woman prisoner does NOT make you a monster - but a wonderful individual, the koran was not cooked up by mohammad for personal gain, but a divine thingy, the koran contains a wonderful "message" which no Muslim has ever been able to point out, and so on and so forth).
I feel sorry for all those young lives (and their families' lives) destroyed because of Islam - those teenage kids who should be enjoying life instead of strapping bombs to themselves because of this "religion". This monstrous "religion" will surely kill many before it can be eradicated, or at least mutated into a less harmful form.
#4 Posted by Fouz on April 9, 2009 3:55:50 am
Ajeya, your post shows a basic lack of any understanding of not only Islam but a balanced way of thinking. Let's make an interpretation of your dharam, shall we? What if I refer you to the news where a holy chap of your sanathan dharam recently advised an indian business man to have sex with his daughter in order to have his flailing business prosper; not only did the businessman complied but the holy guy went on to have sex with his other daughter. What does that show? Nice religion, Hinduism is, huh, if you can become a baba there? So should I label all you guys as incestuous pedophiles? Come on , dude.
#5 Posted by Akbarhussain on April 9, 2009 5:40:35 am
#4 Fouz
I agree with you that this guy Ajeya lacks basic understanding of Islam and is devoid of balanced thinking. But I disagree with you in the later part of your comment. As a society we have always shown deep respect to every religion. Every religion came to bless the humanity with peace and to put a check on the barbaric instincts. The problems and conflicts arise when some bigots twist religious teachings to fulfill their own negative agenda. The biggest problem being faced to the world today is this conflict between Liberal Fascism and Religious Extremism. Both sides have equally disastrous agendas and innocents populations are their fuel.
#3 Ajeya
Nowhere in any Islamic religious scriptures is anything like flogging a woman in public for any crime. Even for adultery, the requirement is four credible witnesses (which is nearly impossible), failing which, the person who brings on this allegation has to go through very harsh punishment. This is clearly ordained in Quran. In this way, Islam protects women from being defamed. You do not have even the basic knowledge about Islam.
Your example of Prophet's marriage with Ayesha is what historians call Presentism. Better read about this subject in detail than letting your thoughts go berserk.
------------------------------------------------------------
Just for an example, I live in Northern Ireland, and it is one of those places in Euorope where people still adhere to their religion i.e. Christianity. Yes there had been Troubles in past fuelled by extremists to fulfill their own agendas, but now it is a peaceful place. People here are peace loving and have good moral values and are very respectful and polite. This is not much the case in other parts of UK.
I agree with you that this guy Ajeya lacks basic understanding of Islam and is devoid of balanced thinking. But I disagree with you in the later part of your comment. As a society we have always shown deep respect to every religion. Every religion came to bless the humanity with peace and to put a check on the barbaric instincts. The problems and conflicts arise when some bigots twist religious teachings to fulfill their own negative agenda. The biggest problem being faced to the world today is this conflict between Liberal Fascism and Religious Extremism. Both sides have equally disastrous agendas and innocents populations are their fuel.
#3 Ajeya
Nowhere in any Islamic religious scriptures is anything like flogging a woman in public for any crime. Even for adultery, the requirement is four credible witnesses (which is nearly impossible), failing which, the person who brings on this allegation has to go through very harsh punishment. This is clearly ordained in Quran. In this way, Islam protects women from being defamed. You do not have even the basic knowledge about Islam.
Your example of Prophet's marriage with Ayesha is what historians call Presentism. Better read about this subject in detail than letting your thoughts go berserk.
------------------------------------------------------------
Just for an example, I live in Northern Ireland, and it is one of those places in Euorope where people still adhere to their religion i.e. Christianity. Yes there had been Troubles in past fuelled by extremists to fulfill their own agendas, but now it is a peaceful place. People here are peace loving and have good moral values and are very respectful and polite. This is not much the case in other parts of UK.
#6 Posted by missamericanpie on April 9, 2009 6:02:20 am
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presentism_(literary_and_historical_analysis)
Pr esentism and moral judgments
Presentism is also related to the problematic question of history and moral judgments. Among historians, the orthodox view may be that reading modern notions of morality into the past is to commit the error of presentism. To avoid this, some historians restrict themselves to describing what happened, and attempt to refrain from using language that passes judgment. For example, when writing history about slavery in an era when the practice was widely accepted, some[weasel words] believe that using language that condemns slavery as "wrong" or "evil" would be presentist, and should be avoided.
There are many critics of this application of presentism. Some[weasel words] argue that to avoid moral judgments is to practice moral relativism, a controversial idea.
*******
Some religious historians[weasel words] argue that morality is timeless, having been established by God, and therefore it is not anachronistic to apply timeless standards to the past. (In this view, while mores may change, morality does not.)
*********
Others argue that historians, like all humans, cannot truly be objective, and so moral judgments will always be a part of their work. David Hackett Fischer, for his part, writes that historians cannot avoid making moral judgments, and indeed they ought to make them, but that they should be aware of their biases, and write history in such a way that their biases do not create a distorted depiction of the past.
so ajeya you are just in letting "your thoughts go berserk" unless of course mulsims don't believe that morality was establised by god
Pr esentism and moral judgments
Presentism is also related to the problematic question of history and moral judgments. Among historians, the orthodox view may be that reading modern notions of morality into the past is to commit the error of presentism. To avoid this, some historians restrict themselves to describing what happened, and attempt to refrain from using language that passes judgment. For example, when writing history about slavery in an era when the practice was widely accepted, some[weasel words] believe that using language that condemns slavery as "wrong" or "evil" would be presentist, and should be avoided.
There are many critics of this application of presentism. Some[weasel words] argue that to avoid moral judgments is to practice moral relativism, a controversial idea.
*******
Some religious historians[weasel words] argue that morality is timeless, having been established by God, and therefore it is not anachronistic to apply timeless standards to the past. (In this view, while mores may change, morality does not.)
*********
Others argue that historians, like all humans, cannot truly be objective, and so moral judgments will always be a part of their work. David Hackett Fischer, for his part, writes that historians cannot avoid making moral judgments, and indeed they ought to make them, but that they should be aware of their biases, and write history in such a way that their biases do not create a distorted depiction of the past.
so ajeya you are just in letting "your thoughts go berserk" unless of course mulsims don't believe that morality was establised by god
#7 Posted by Fouz on April 9, 2009 6:25:43 am
Re: # 5 Akbar
Of course I was trying to convey to Ajeya that this sort of stupid bandying about of singular events and resultant generalised insults can work both ways. Such reprehensible acts on part of an individual or a group of wackos cannot be taken to be representative of their community. No one is more vocal in condemning the atrocious interpretation by the Taliban of their own brand of Islam and we condemn them for their outlandish behaviour in arrogating to themselves the prerogative of State and disrupting the social order.
Of course I was trying to convey to Ajeya that this sort of stupid bandying about of singular events and resultant generalised insults can work both ways. Such reprehensible acts on part of an individual or a group of wackos cannot be taken to be representative of their community. No one is more vocal in condemning the atrocious interpretation by the Taliban of their own brand of Islam and we condemn them for their outlandish behaviour in arrogating to themselves the prerogative of State and disrupting the social order.
#8 Posted by parthaab on April 9, 2009 7:16:07 am
While political parties are falling over each other, trying to get the attention of WOMEN, for their votes, MEN have been left literally speechless - without even a voice for themselves!
Media advertisements, from domestic cleaning agents, to car insurance, to pet food, ALL routinely portray gender roles where women are the smart, cool, sophisticated and innocent gender, and men are the complacent, retarded, pathetic gender. Thus, misandry is being softly 'legalised' by the media - as being perfectly normal and natural.
The areas of misandry include, for eg., :
1. Ragging
2. Circumcision
3. Conscription
4. Unequal taxation
5. Unequal benefits in old age
6. Misandrous laws in divorce, such as dowry laws
7. Unmonitored recruitment practices
8. Alimony in divorces
9. Child custody in divorces
10. Encouragement to male children to improve performance in exams, etc. etc.
Ironically, it is the ruling Congress that has given most money for feminist causes, and created draconian misandrous laws. Under its rule, the ONLY graph to sky rocket, has been divorce! Many elderly men and innocent women have suffered to conseqences of women biased laws passed by the Congress. No wonder, these elderly men and women will votes with fires burning in the pits of their stomachs.
But will their feelings be assuaged, unless men themselves realise the tremendous evil, including the misandrous media, behind the forces against their gender?
WAKE UP MALES! SPEAK UP!
Media advertisements, from domestic cleaning agents, to car insurance, to pet food, ALL routinely portray gender roles where women are the smart, cool, sophisticated and innocent gender, and men are the complacent, retarded, pathetic gender. Thus, misandry is being softly 'legalised' by the media - as being perfectly normal and natural.
The areas of misandry include, for eg., :
1. Ragging
2. Circumcision
3. Conscription
4. Unequal taxation
5. Unequal benefits in old age
6. Misandrous laws in divorce, such as dowry laws
7. Unmonitored recruitment practices
8. Alimony in divorces
9. Child custody in divorces
10. Encouragement to male children to improve performance in exams, etc. etc.
Ironically, it is the ruling Congress that has given most money for feminist causes, and created draconian misandrous laws. Under its rule, the ONLY graph to sky rocket, has been divorce! Many elderly men and innocent women have suffered to conseqences of women biased laws passed by the Congress. No wonder, these elderly men and women will votes with fires burning in the pits of their stomachs.
But will their feelings be assuaged, unless men themselves realise the tremendous evil, including the misandrous media, behind the forces against their gender?
WAKE UP MALES! SPEAK UP!
#9 Posted by wiseguyin on April 9, 2009 7:27:30 am
Re: # 4
Fouz : That baba you are referring to never quoted any hindu scripture. His acts were his own imagination (and he has been arrested by the state). In your case, the acts committed are considered sacrosanct IN your scriptures. And were it not for the fact that Pakis themselves are being killed (and brutally) , your ilk would have been rejoicing at the destruction of us poor kaffirs...
You need the balance. Not Ajeya.
Fouz : That baba you are referring to never quoted any hindu scripture. His acts were his own imagination (and he has been arrested by the state). In your case, the acts committed are considered sacrosanct IN your scriptures. And were it not for the fact that Pakis themselves are being killed (and brutally) , your ilk would have been rejoicing at the destruction of us poor kaffirs...
You need the balance. Not Ajeya.
#10 Posted by mitchellasada on April 9, 2009 6:47:56 pm
But I thought I saw this time,Pakistani women bravely come out in the open to protest against the flogging. What is Waqar talking about? Pakistanis have condemned the incident..
#11 Posted by Fouz on April 9, 2009 8:56:00 pm
Re: # 9
Wiseguyin, take the broader picture. We are not talking about the punishment itself. If anyone commits a crime deserving such a punishment, it is a VERY difficult(read almost impossible)thing to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that they are culpable. Which is why throughout the Islamic history, there has never been a rampant discharge of such punishments. Without getting into the rationale of such edicts and their subsequent deterrent effects in straightening up a society, lets keep focused. The scriptures DO NOT ALLOW any individual or a group other than the State to carry out justice vigilante. No one group can claim to be a State in itself; the Taliban are doing just that and they are being condemned not only for being so but also upon the flimsy grounds on which they have carried out this injustice.
If you think that Pakis are raising hue and cry only because a Paki girl is involved, then you are mistaken. This is the 21st century, bro, and Indians and Pakistanis are not what they grand dads used to be: myopic, self centered and viewing each other from a religious perspective only: exhibit #1, some very enlightened chaps on this very forum.
And never mind the baba; we all have such psychos distributed quite evenly (more evenly than you think) in every culture around the world.
Wiseguyin, take the broader picture. We are not talking about the punishment itself. If anyone commits a crime deserving such a punishment, it is a VERY difficult(read almost impossible)thing to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that they are culpable. Which is why throughout the Islamic history, there has never been a rampant discharge of such punishments. Without getting into the rationale of such edicts and their subsequent deterrent effects in straightening up a society, lets keep focused. The scriptures DO NOT ALLOW any individual or a group other than the State to carry out justice vigilante. No one group can claim to be a State in itself; the Taliban are doing just that and they are being condemned not only for being so but also upon the flimsy grounds on which they have carried out this injustice.
If you think that Pakis are raising hue and cry only because a Paki girl is involved, then you are mistaken. This is the 21st century, bro, and Indians and Pakistanis are not what they grand dads used to be: myopic, self centered and viewing each other from a religious perspective only: exhibit #1, some very enlightened chaps on this very forum.
And never mind the baba; we all have such psychos distributed quite evenly (more evenly than you think) in every culture around the world.
#12 Posted by einsteinwallah on April 10, 2009 3:51:08 am
Waqar
"For the most part, the religious lot of the country has quietly and not so quietly supported the terrorists. The people of Pukhtunkhwa have been held hostage by Taliban, Pukhtuns' land is burning. What Taliban are doing is plain barbarism. When a religion is taken over by militants and zealots this is what you get."
Is it possible that Islam attracts towards itself precisely those people who more easily adopt violent behavior? Is it possible that there are elements in the body of writings that teach message of Islam which has unfortunate effect on minds of its readers (especially more impressionable ones), which starts them on the path of psychopathy where they cease seeing such incidents as anything wrong?
Is there any objective study of how reading material one reads affects ones sense of guilt? Religious literature is more likely to have words designed to brainwash. Literature which is overtly not religious may have subtle messages inciting adoption of hardline attitudes but it may not be as effective as openly religious texts. Has anyone done studies like this vis-a-vis Islamic religious literature?
"For the most part, the religious lot of the country has quietly and not so quietly supported the terrorists. The people of Pukhtunkhwa have been held hostage by Taliban, Pukhtuns' land is burning. What Taliban are doing is plain barbarism. When a religion is taken over by militants and zealots this is what you get."
Is it possible that Islam attracts towards itself precisely those people who more easily adopt violent behavior? Is it possible that there are elements in the body of writings that teach message of Islam which has unfortunate effect on minds of its readers (especially more impressionable ones), which starts them on the path of psychopathy where they cease seeing such incidents as anything wrong?
Is there any objective study of how reading material one reads affects ones sense of guilt? Religious literature is more likely to have words designed to brainwash. Literature which is overtly not religious may have subtle messages inciting adoption of hardline attitudes but it may not be as effective as openly religious texts. Has anyone done studies like this vis-a-vis Islamic religious literature?
#13 Posted by wiseguyin on April 10, 2009 9:23:47 am
Re: # 11
This is the 21st century, bro, and Indians and Pakistanis are not what they grand dads used to be: myopic, self centered and viewing each other from a religious perspective only
This is true of the Homo Sapiens speicies ... not true of H0m0 Islamus. You know it your self..... Whom are you kidding?
Pakistanis dont hate indian muslims... as such its not a nationalism based hate against India ... Its TOTALLY RELIGON Based.... You hate us because you hate Hindus. Period.
Not that I have a problem with that,,,,, my only crib is that Hindus dont hate Muslims with such fervour... I am doing my bit to change things of course...
PS: Paki hate towards hindus ... could it be because we did not help them when they were being invaded...
This is the 21st century, bro, and Indians and Pakistanis are not what they grand dads used to be: myopic, self centered and viewing each other from a religious perspective only
This is true of the Homo Sapiens speicies ... not true of H0m0 Islamus. You know it your self..... Whom are you kidding?
Pakistanis dont hate indian muslims... as such its not a nationalism based hate against India ... Its TOTALLY RELIGON Based.... You hate us because you hate Hindus. Period.
Not that I have a problem with that,,,,, my only crib is that Hindus dont hate Muslims with such fervour... I am doing my bit to change things of course...
PS: Paki hate towards hindus ... could it be because we did not help them when they were being invaded...
#14 Posted by Fouz on April 10, 2009 11:32:43 pm
Re: # 13
,,, my only crib is that Hindus dont hate Muslims with such fervour...
Err .Yeah. Thats like so true, bro. Gujrat, hmmm. And whats the name of that grand son of Gandhi (sorry if I have a bad memory..we Pakis usually have)?
".. I am doing my bit to change things of course.."
Perhaps you could start by growing up. Take it out of your system; this Hindu-Muslim thing. Its simple politics. And Economics. And a desire to show how much of a kick-ass you are. In short, human nature. If only you could get it out of your head and for once look at people just as people without the trappings of religion about them, you have it made. By all means hate anyone for what he is doing wrong (in your perception) but don't hate him (more) because of his religion.
Summary: Its not the religion, stupid.
,,, my only crib is that Hindus dont hate Muslims with such fervour...
Err .Yeah. Thats like so true, bro. Gujrat, hmmm. And whats the name of that grand son of Gandhi (sorry if I have a bad memory..we Pakis usually have)?
".. I am doing my bit to change things of course.."
Perhaps you could start by growing up. Take it out of your system; this Hindu-Muslim thing. Its simple politics. And Economics. And a desire to show how much of a kick-ass you are. In short, human nature. If only you could get it out of your head and for once look at people just as people without the trappings of religion about them, you have it made. By all means hate anyone for what he is doing wrong (in your perception) but don't hate him (more) because of his religion.
Summary: Its not the religion, stupid.
#15 Posted by nkg on April 11, 2009 12:21:25 am
Re: # 14
Fouz...
It is the Religion( Islam) which is source of trouble....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wuPDm5fYFT8
Don't blame Indians for this cartoon....
Fouz...
It is the Religion( Islam) which is source of trouble....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wuPDm5fYFT8
Don't blame Indians for this cartoon....
#16 Posted by nkg on April 11, 2009 12:24:56 am
Re: # 5
Akbar...
everybody accross the world lacks basic understanding of Islam....
Huh...
Look at the Charlie Brown stuff....It is not from Indians...
How long will you try to bluff people? It is electronic age, people in Thailand, who are victim of islamic barbarism, is now knowing the events in India and other civilised world...
anyhow, how do you feel, when people named after your prophet is strip searched at the International Airports ( only due to his association with Muhammed)?
Akbar...
everybody accross the world lacks basic understanding of Islam....
Huh...
Look at the Charlie Brown stuff....It is not from Indians...
How long will you try to bluff people? It is electronic age, people in Thailand, who are victim of islamic barbarism, is now knowing the events in India and other civilised world...
anyhow, how do you feel, when people named after your prophet is strip searched at the International Airports ( only due to his association with Muhammed)?
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