Pakistan Is Partitioned By Its National Assembly

Re: # 361

One of the greatest things India did to itself was the Zamindari Abolition Act.

I feel that if Pakistan, like India, had enacted a law that gave the land to the tiller, their plight wouldn't have been so pathetic. India had a modern-age saint like Acharya Vinoba Bhave who led the movement of "Bhoo-daan" i.e. gifting away land by big landlords to landless. Pakistan, in its hateful attitude towards India, has missed to see how a diverse society like India has successfully kept army in barracks, maintained democratic rule and done many good things for the poor. It is still not too late. Pakistan should bury the old hatchet and be friends with India. K B Kale, Jakarta

Abdul aziz for prime minister, muslim khan for president,
three cheers for lucky pakistan, hip hip hurray
a cabinet post for bin laden ?

I have been banned by chowk staff. You are lying when you says that the Pakistan sex ratio for under 15 is the same as India's . India's is much higher and unique in being that high due to female fetus infanticide. It is the PROVEN reason now not a speculation.

Under 15? Did you dream that up? What the hell is fetus infanticide? Abortion is legal in India - how about Pakistan? Why are the ratios the same in both countries?

Also I did not say that marital rape was always prosecuted as crime. I even gave u the date when it started being prosecuted. But when it did it was not considered a NEW crime, it was prosecuted as RAPE proper.

Marital rape and date rape were not even on the horizon as far as criminal law was concerned, they were not part of any statistics and, when they became criminal, they swelled the numbers. In Pakistan rape is likely way undercounted because there is no such thing as marital rape or date rape, right?

Also t I have done more original work compared to most sociologists and you should be sued for claiming to be a human being when you are an ignorant lying moron.

:)


TNITC masadi

Re: # 347 tahmed
i think that is wonderful. so every thing is now hunky dory. we just have to drop a few dozen daisy cutters in fata, swat, possibly nwpf as well. after which we can start replenishing the stock for islamabad.

sounds like a plan.

Thanks khyber and Tahmed....frankly i really dont know when Pakistanis will actually start to recognize the enemy within...

#353 which "simple folk" support the taliban? the ones who were beheaded on khooni chowk, you hypocrite??

Re: # 353 Pakistan Military is the head of the en-lighted Moderates. They need to ask are they real muslims? If they are then do they fight injustice? If yes, they need to side with the simple folk who support the taliban. Enlighted Moderates are the robber barons, and they interested only Swiss bank Accounts

#351 yesterday's use of air force jets in fata, and the clearing out of afghan settlements in islamabad (who may have been harboring sleeper cells of the taliban/alqaeda) provide an early indication of pakistan's response. Let us hope this is the beginning of a serious response.

#351 majumdar: time will tell on what the pakistan military does to defend the nation...

Skeptical/Khyber: Agreed on mqm. the first (and so far only) party to recognize the face of the real enemy behind the mask of "Islam".

Tahmed sahib,

and now their sights are on Pakistan itself.

The Taliboon ought to have kept their sights only on A'stan and Kashmir, not Pakistan.

wake up Pakistan to the face of the real enemy.

So what are the GOP and Pak Army doing about it?

Regards

majumdar #348 true. but they still live in caves, rather than occupying the palace mullah omar had made for himself in kabul. because Bush switched over to Iraq and afghanistan became what came to be jokingly called the "Welfare War". Bush is gone now, and the US is getting serious about afghanistan again.

Khyber #346 The taliban may be brutal. They may even be clever. But, they are making the same fatal mistake that all power-hungry groups make - their lust for power knows no limit. The receipt of Swat has only vetted their apetite for power, and now their sights are on Pakistan itself. They have already accomplished over the past couple of months what Bush and Co. couldnt accomplish in 8 years - wake up Pakistan to the face of the real enemy.

Tahmed sahib,

Re: 347

It may have escaped your notice that the same folks who ran the govt before 9/11 now control almost all of Pushtoon A'stan and part of Pak too.

Regards

#342 what did bombing the taliban get the americans in afghanistan? it got rid of the government that had hosted the criminals behind 9/11.

THE NEWS EDITORIAL............Tuesday, April 21, 2009
The war is quite evidently not over. In fact its pace seems to be accelerating. The audacious attack on the check post in Hangu, in which 27 people including 25 soldiers died is proof of the fact that the TTP remains thirsty for blood. The killings seen across the country have not satiated them and nor has the peace deal in Swat appeased them. The bomber who crashed his truck, laden with explosives, into the police post was quite obviously backed by a force with an organizational structure capable of planning and financing such attacks. Our failure to act against it over the past decade has enabled it to grow and gain strength. It has now demonstrated just how it intends to use its power – decimating the state's security apparatus whenever and wherever it can. The prime minister has insisted his government has a definite policy on terror and that the deal in Swat would remain intact as long as peace prevailed in the Valley. He has not said if the terms of this agreement allow the TTP to strike elsewhere, at will. The militants who have enforced their own laws in Swat and those who wage war elsewhere in the northern areas are closely inter-connected. They cannot be regarded as separate entities but must be dealt with through one, cohesive strategy.

So far this strategy has been lacking. So too has the will and commitment that should back it. This is the reason why militants remain free to create havoc in our country and prove that the writ of the state no longer exists across a large portion . Till the state shows a greater determination to seize back full control of the country and the welfare of people within it, there will be more such attacks and an expansion in the sense of hatred that under-pin them.

Re: # 344Skeptical....I agree with u,I had same views about MQM AND ALTAF HUSSIAN but I am glad that he became more moderate,advance and knows the dangers and is aware of current situation while other politicians are still playing their ugly role and have no courage to say something or condemn ignorant mullahs and Taliban.These ignorant mullahs and Taliban who even does not have high school education have no right to impose their 7th century laws on people in 21sit century.

Frankly I was never a fan of MQM. I used to think its a party formed on the cult of personality and shamelessly exploits regionalism. But in these strange times, this party is playing a far better role than all. Its shown courage and determination to reject all that barbarism being committed in the name of religon.
Frankly I am beginning to think that MQM has progressed whereas PPP,ANP, PML (N), PTI all have regressed. I wish that MQM can actually come out of regionalism and ethincity. Its the only party which actually includes lower middle class people. Its the only party which knows what real issues and problems are. It was a misfortune that party became militant. But now it has a golden oppurtunity to redeem itself. Frankly Altaf Hussain is showing much more maturity than ANP, PPP and PML (N) leaders. There is some hope as Nawaz Sharif in his latest interview has condemned the non sensical demands of Taliban.
Its true that there are gaps in the society. These gaps are being exploited by taliban. But frankly the solution they are giving is barbaric. these are animals not people.

Re: # 341
krishna saab, why not write an fp article to explain ur rational deductions? then we can all discuss their merit.

Re: # 339

khyber saab do u want america to bomb terrorist cells in the nwfp in pak? isn't this what they did in afghanistan: bomb indiscriminately? and look where it has gotten them!

#299 MadrassaAlumnus

[What do you know about the Islamic Financial System? Have you studied it? How did you reach your conclusions?
...
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide ]


A lot. Yes. Through rational deductions.

Re: # 338om_prakash......MASADI is just here to divert attentio from this article and real issues,thats why he was talking about rape and economy issues.

PAKISTAN'S ARMY AND ISI AGENCY DO NOT WANT TO FIGHT MOST OF THE ISLAMIC TERRORIST ORGANISATIONS.

GIVING BILLIONS OF DOLLARS AND ARMS TO PAKISTAN ONLY INCREASES DANGER FOR AFGHANISTAN, AND THE WORLD, AS SOME OF THESE RESOURCES END UP IN ASSISTING THE TERORISTS.

THE US SHOULD BOMB AND DESTROY ANY SUSPECTED TERRORIST CELLS IN PAKISTAN FOR GLOBAL SECURITY.

Guys, take pity on poor masadi.
He is a frustrated academic who is incapable of carrying on a civil discourse. But he's entertaining nonetheless.

According to NY Times, the Taliban have published a “most wanted� list of 43 prominent names, said Muhammad Sher Khan, a landlord who is a politician with the Pakistan Peoples Party, and whose name was on the list. All those named were ordered to present themselves to the Taliban courts or risk being killed, he said. “When you know that they will hang and kill you, how will you dare go back there?� Mr. Khan, hiding in Punjab, said in a telephone interview. “Being on the list meant ‘Don’t come back to Swat.’ �

It should be noted that all 43 "most wanted" are the biggest landlords as well as members of the major political parties including ANP, PPP and PML.

Clearly, the Taliban are targeting the landed elite in Swat (who are also members of government and legislature) and winning favors of the peasants who feel exploited by these feudal lords. They are using the class warfare to their advantage...something that is also likely to work well in other provinces such as Punjab.

Mahboob Mahmood, a Pakistani-American lawyer and former classmate of President Obama’s, told the NY Times, “The people of Pakistan are psychologically ready for a revolution.�

The end of the feudal system will be a welcome change for most Pakistanis. It will be unfortunate, however, if the repression of the people by the feudal/tribal elite is simply replaced by their religious persecution by the narrow-minded and intolerant Taliban in Pakistan. I just hope it's not too late to change the course of events in Pakistan.

Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

APRIL 21IST 09...DAILY TIMES....Editorial: Altaf Hussain and Pakistan’s conscience

The MQM leader-in-exile Altaf Hussain has emerged as the conscience of the nation as Sufi Muhammad of Swat apostatises him for rejecting his qazi courts. Mr Hussain was the only prominent leader — barring a hesitating President Zardari — who first expressed scepticism about the decision of the ANP to give in to the Sufi and his eccentric sharia, and then attacked it as a conspiracy to destroy the state of Pakistan.

As the politicians sitting in the Islamabad parliament supinely accepted the Sufi’s sharia courts, Mr Hussain gathered an Ulema and Mashaikh Convention in Karachi and gave a disempowered but dominant section of religious leaders an opportunity to express their reservations about the Islam that is coming to Swat under the tutelage of the Taliban. Dominated by the Barelvi scholars but including the clergy of all other denominations, the convention rejected Nizam-e-Adl and announced that “suicide attacks and murder of any person on the basis of sectarian differences is forbidden in Islam�.

Addressing the convention by telephone, Mr Hussain was able to give accurate statistics about the popular religious leaders of Swat, including more than 23 Sufis and Pirs like Pir Samiullah, Pir Sharifullah and Iftikhar Habibi, killed by the Taliban before the sharia of Sufi Muhammad was enforced in Malakand. He critiqued Sufi Muhammad’s off-hand declaration of takfir (apostatisation) of his person and raised serious objections to what the Sufi was intent on enforcing in the Malakand division of the NWFP.

Mr Hussain and his party are speaking out when most of Pakistan’s polity has been intimidated into silence. He took the moral high ground when he ousted from his party a TV anchor who had caused the death of Ahmedis in Sindh by airing a highly tendentious discussion on his programme. He has fearlessly rearticulated the pluralist ideals of the Quaid-e-Azam and announced the determination of his party to fight the Taliban when even the Pakistan army is not willing to face them.

DAILY TIMES...APR/21ST/09
Editorial: Sufi Muhammad shows true colours

Highly charged discussants who appeared on TV to defend the Nizam-e-Adl of Sufi Muhammad in Swat must have been dismayed by the TNSM boss’ latest statement in front of a mammoth gathering at Mingora: “The country’s superior courts are un-Islamic and cannot not hear appeals against decisions of the newly set up qazi courts�. He did not leave it at that and told his audience that there was no room for democracy in Islam and western democracy was a system of infidels that had divided the clerics and the people of Pakistan into factions.

Defying another benign interpretation of the “harmless� text of Nizam-e-Adl Law, he demanded that the government withdraw all judges from the Malakand-Kohistan jurisdiction and appoint qazis for courts at the district and tehsil levels. It goes without saying that he will have the power to approve or disapprove the qazis as and when they are appointed. This will be necessary to streamline the functioning of the qazi courts, venturing into areas of adjudication where the law is still uncodified. He has ended his statement with a warning that tells us where the authority lies: “The government will be responsible for all the consequences if our demands are not implemented�.

The Deobandi ulema have already signalled their acceptance of Sufi Muhammad’s Islam. One must however keep in mind that all madrassa-linked clergy has been opposed to the sharia enforced under the Constitution and has consistently insisted upon their own brand of law which functions without the “polluting� presence of such British Raj leftovers as the Penal Code. They also reject the fundamental principle of the Constitution that any law which is not repugnant to Islam should be acceptable as a part of the sharia system. Now, they will have to reconcile to the edict of Sufi Muhammad that democracy itself is repugnant to Islam.

If the religious parties — who not long ago functioned as MMA in national politics — choose to look into this edict closely, they may have much to adjust to. Maulana Samiul Haq of JUIS will have to review his observation that Nizam-e-Adl has been a fulfilment of his dreams. He will have to disband his party because taking part in politics under a democratic system is un-Islamic in the eyes of the Swat lawgiver. If the Islamic order of Sufi Muhammad rejects democracy it must, like Iran, reject all political parties, and the system of regular elections. Maulana Fazlur Rehman, the most pragmatic cleric of them all, will have to pull out of the federal coalition too.

Sufi Muhammad is right in his own way when he says the jurisdiction of the Peshawar High Court and the Supreme Court must be ousted. The sharia his qazis are going to practise will not accept such “infidel� accretions as the Family Law Ordinance that still guides an important area of adjudication in Pakistan. The Sufi will be particularly interested in ousting them so that they do not intervene to cancel such punishments meted out by the qazis as the cutting of hands and stoning to death. Pakistani sharia has these punishments on the statute book but the superior judiciary has always held back their execution under the Islamic concept of istehsan (benign approach in light of circumstances).

The ANP will be upset too even if it doesn’t show it. The text of the Nizam-e-Adl law was quite harmless. It thought that the provincial judiciary will get to appoint the qazis and will then exercise some supervisory role in the setting up of Darul Qaza appellate courts. Its claim that the law will fulfil the long-standing desire of the Swat people to reintroduce the sharia of the Wali of Swat will be falsified soon after the courts start handing down punishments that the Wali’s judicial system never did. The Wali’s system was cheap and quick but it was not based on sharia as there were no hudood punishments under it.

An Al Qaeda website in February this year lauded a Somali court run by an armed militia called Shabab for sentencing to death a 55-year-old politician for being guilty of “showing sympathy for Christianity�. After being riddled with bullets, his corpse was thrown into the infidels’ cemetery. And Somalia today is counted as a “failed state�.

TTP, TNSM ban political parties in Bajaur
DAILY TIMES(APR 21-09)

KHAR: Tehreek-e-Taliban Pakistan (TTP) and Tehreek-e-Nifaz-e-Shariat-e-Muhammadi (TNSM) announced to ban political parties and politics in the agency after talks on Monday, sources said. Both the organisation also banned the assembly of more than three people at a place. The ban was enforced following a jirga, after four persons were killed in a clash between the activists of the both the parties.Meanwhile, those who died in the clash were laid to rest on Monday.

shehzadshah writes "Equilibriums by the way, Adam Smith kay chachay, are mostly idealized models used for analysis and rarely, if ever, exist in the real world"

If you read my post it talks about the "previous" equilibrium- that is the starting point from which you were pontificating that the economy would collapse. It would not since it would reach the previous level. The non-interest system is superior only if you accept the criteria that fleecing the working class is bad. If you think fleecing it is good then interest is a much superior system that is why it flourishes under capitalism while killing the life savings of the poor.

Now don't waste my time you miserable ignoramus.

TNITC masadi

Re: # 331

Thanks, man. You cheer me up.

Re: # 330freehussaini.that link is not working,poor masadi is trying to deny Taliban cruel acts by comparing rape cases in U.S.A...

Re: # 327

Dear Mr. Khyber,

Your LOL helped me a little bit. I laughed.

Otherwise, I am out of my wits. It is like watching Dr. Hanibal Lechter, many like him, listening to the music while slaying, supporting his actions with quotes from his bible, psychology. There may be social, economic and political interpretations of this but a whole lot of it is psychological. Hardcore psychology. These may be completely deranged people. Not guilty by way of insanity. That would be the most terrifying part.

Here's link to a video about widespread female infanticide in India:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0II7souKPy4

An estimated 100 million women are currently missing from this earth, according to a 2007 report by Plan International (a global child development agency). Unfortunately, female foeticide and infanticide are still very real problems contributing to this number. China and India are two of the biggest culprits, evidenced by their skewed male-female sex ratios. This video explores the Genocide of the Daughters in India and sheds light on the importance of creating global gender equality and a right to life for all.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

The Frontier Post
Commitment to Journalism
Begetting a Bhindranwale
How does the apex court take notice of the absurdity of Sufi Mohammad of the TNSM fame, labelling the Supreme and the High Courts as un-Islamic and declaring making appeals to them as sacrilegious, will be known in days ahead. So will it be how the independent judiciary campaigners react to his preposterous pronouncement. They were the ones shouting full-throated that Swat-like situations were the outcome of an independent judiciary’s absence in the country and would cease to exist once it was restored. And it is to be seen if at all “political� ulema react to his tirade that by joining the campaign for sacked judges’ restoration they had acted sacrilegiously. And if they do, it would be worth watching how they react. They were so admiring of the Sufi, obviously feeling jubilant he had pulled a feat of religiosity so dear to their hearts. And no lesser note-worthy would it be if the political elites and feudal lords gracing the parliament pluck up courage to speak up now that the Sufi has bracketed them too with political ulema as enemies of Pakistan and its constitution? Weren’t they deafeningly mute when the ANP’s accord with the obscurant was brought before the National Assembly and they without giving even a fleeting thought to its enormously grave implications for the nation endorsed it sheepishly? Hadn’t the Swati thug Fazlullah’s brigands threatened them to say yes or face the consequences? And they said ayes overwhelmingly, for fear of their lives. Isn’t it? But with their politically expedient accord with the obscurant maulvi, haven’t the ANP bigwigs begotten a Bhindranwale? Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale too was no spiritual or religious authority. He was just a rural bard of religious hymns, commanding a popular audience in Indian Punjab’s countryside alone. It was Mrs. Indira Gandhi’s party scouts who spotted him for her. She wanted to hobble in Punjab her entrenched political opponents of Shiromani Akali Dal, a Sikh political formation with strong religious roots and a large support in densely-populated sprawling countryside. She pulled out the minstrel Bhindranwale from his rural base, and with generous patronage propped him up to dominate Punjab’s political landscape. But then he grew too big for his boots. The Alkalis he did pulverise. But he started challenging the Indian State’s authority too, eventually plunging Punjab into a raging secessionist movement that took New Delhi almost a decade to quell. The rest is all known history. Hasn’t the ANP, unwittingly, if not wittingly, bred an emerging Bhindranwale in the Sufi, too? Isn’t he already behaving like a sultan in Swat and Malakand, with him calling the shots and the ANP and the local administration just cringing before him? Isn’t it his diktat that runs in the region, with the administration at his beck and call? He forbade lawyers not to come to courts; they obeyed and the ANP-led administration stood aside inert. He ordered the local courts to stop working; they stopped, with this administration just watching on listlessly. Now he has ordered packing up of courts within four days. This edict too is likely to be complied with obediently. He indeed bullies and blackmails the ANP, and it only submits to his wills and whims. It is he who holds the whip in his hand; the ANP and its subordinate bureaucracy in the region are just on the run. No overstatement it indeed would be that this monster of the Frankenstein ANP has already run out of its control. The Sufi has become his own master and a law unto himself. Where would it lead up to? The coming scenario is daunting. indeed. Bhindranwale had a veteran military officer to build up his fighting muscle for challenging the Indian State. He was Shubeg Singh, a cashiered Indian Army brigadier, who while in service had trained the Mukti Bahini insurgents and unleashed them on the then East Pakistan to fight against the Pakistan military and carry out acts of subversion ands sabotage. And the Sufi has his Shubeg Singh in Fazlullah, still commanding an intact trained and lethally armed private army with immense supply sources across the border. With its foolish accord, the ANP has decidedly stirred a hornets’ nest, which will surely become uncontrollable if not controlled now immediately. Its stupid act is portending a potential confessional strife, too. The Sunni Tehreek is already in street agitation against it. Other confessional factions, too, are taking the same direction. Will someone in Islamabad care to ponder what an atrocity has the ANP inflicted on the nation?
Saved from: http://www.thefrontierpost.com/News.aspx?ncat=ed&nid=31&ad=21-04-200
Da ted: Tuesday, April 21, 2009, Rabi-us-Sani 24, 1430 A.H.

Re: # 326freehussaini....Mr.Masadi will compare this to rape cases in U.S.A. TOO............LOL

Folks! Prepare yourselves for something grossly disturbing. You do not have to watch it necessarily. A friend of mine forwarded this link to me. SERIOUS VIEWER DISCRETION ADVISED!



http://islamabadobserver.com/2009/04/20/taliban-slaughtering-acc used-like-animals/

Re: # 306...#306 Posted by masadi on April 20, 2009 10:03:36
MASADI U SOND SO MUCH LIKE TALIBAN AND THEIR LEADERS,NOW IN SWAT THAT IGNORANT MULLAH IS REJECTING PAKISTAN'S LEGAL SYSTEM SO IS IT OK??????????WHAT THOSE IGNORANT MULLAHS WANTS TO IMPOSE IS TO BAN WOMEN LEGAL ACTIVITIES,ban music which is source of entertainment,ban girls from going to schools,so if I am talking against this and I hate TALIBAN for their cruel activities,and I hate thier criems aginst humanity and you think I am sell out then what I am proud of myself that I am not living in denial and hiding my head in sands,why don't you(MASADI)take urself and family to lal majid or SWAT and live with TALIBAN????masadi you are just religious fanatics like TALIBAN.

Those who are in love with TALIBAN AND IGNORANT MULLAHS OF LAL MASJID SHOULD go and live with them in swat and lal masjid the hate center of Islamabad.

The footage recently made public showing the flogging of a girl in Swat and the execution of a man and woman in their 40s reportedly in the Hangu district must have sickened anyone with respect for human rights and dignity. As such, these videos constitute a graphic reminder of the fact that behind the rhetoric of religion, the real face of the Taliban is one of unmixed brutality and murderousness.
This should come as no surprise. Since the rise of the Taliban in Afghanistan during the 1990s and in Pakistan more recently, there has been ample evidence that the otherwise harmless moniker — which means ‘students’ — is a mask worn by an ideologically united group that uses tactics of violence, fear and gross coercion to get its way.
Given this, it is alarming that Pakistan’s state and society continue to bury their heads in the sand and resort to denial of either specific acts of brutality or the threat in general posed by the Taliban.(DAWN.COM)
*************************
People on forum like masadi is perfect example of those living i denial,what TALIBAN AND MULLAHS WANTS to impose in Pakistan is denial of basic human rights of women and everyone else which cant work in 21st century.This constitutes yet another example of the manner in which the Pakistani state and its citizenry live in denial of the clear and present danger to their personal freedoms. It is precisely this attitude that has allowed the Taliban and others of their ilk to make such deep inroads. Even if this particular video was faked, there is ample evidence otherwise of the Taliban’s brutality. Reports of beheadings, shootings and the coercion of people — who are citizens of Pakistan and residents of Swat — are made public practically everyday.For the survival of values pertaining to freedom, democracy and citizens’ rights, the threat posed by the Taliban must be combated not only militarily but also by taking up positions on the ideological battleground from where they fire the salvos. For this to happen, the grotesqueness of the Taliban worldview must first be recognised and then rejected wholesale.

The Swati girl’s ordeal sparked outrage across the country; but such graphic footage ought not to be necessary to convince the citizenry of the Taliban’s real face. Living in denial is a luxury that is no longer available to us.

Re: # 303
Once again you are confirming my argument, though you’re so angry u don’t see it. What an ass. Reduced economic growth overtime = deflation, or did they not require some vocabulary skills in your ‘accredited’ degree. Equilibriums by the way, Adam Smith kay chachay, are mostly idealized models used for analysis and rarely, if ever, exist in the real world. As for your asinine point about money being artificial, well duh...its paper & ink, or haven’t you noticed? The point is that interest is simply the cost of utilizing the asset of money that is artificial, but represents the value of all other assets. Of course Islamic finance does not recognize money as an asset, but has no real alternative either. Anyway, instead of trying to impress with your economic brilliance, why don’t you simply explain, if you can, how the Islamic financial system is inherently superior.

masadi
Don't quit while you are behind :)
Let's see if you can make reasoned arguments without being an ass.

masadi
Please refrain from name calling because it would be tragic to see you banned. Your entertainment value here is great and you are like a puppy chasing after shadows. Besides if it gives your low self esteem a lift to get on an anonymous website and call everyone else a dimwit then that's double the benefit :)

Your answer then to brutality against women in Pakistan is to say, look it could be worse - you could be in India or the US.

Now some English lesson for you: yes, the cited reasons could be AMONG the many reasons for the skewed ratio. No one is denying that. The ratio, if you noticed it, is pretty much the same in Pakistan and in India. The missing women have gone missing in both countries.

On rape, yes the number of incidents prosecuted is likely less than the actual occurrence. This is true of any crime. Second, in societies where rape carries a stigma, it is likely that the number reported is way lower than actual numbers. Third, notwithstanding your weird reasoning, the UN may use a standard definition, but they use census results from member countries to generate the statistics. The numbers are dependent on a host of factors INCLUDING criminal definition of rape and the reliability of numbers. When was the last Pakstan census conducted? Is there such a thing as date rape or marital rape in Pakistan.

You are either not very bright or dishonest to keep claiming that date rape and marital rape were always classified and prosecuted as crime. You don't have any facts. Waving your hands more vigorously doesn't constitute argument. You should be sued for calling yourself a sociologist.

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#316, you are highly confused and don't have a clue about what you are writing about the claims of facts establish truth or falsity unlike moral prescriptions which can have no such truth or falsity involved unless standards are agreed upon.

Om prakash writes "women ARE free to .. "

No they are not in the U.S. otherwise you wouldn't see the largest number of poor in the US being women, if a structure supports women living on their own etc you wouldn't have one that results in the feminization of poverty when they do try to make it on their own. Get a goddamned education

TNITC masadi

"Is it a faith based text or is it based on factual claims?"

Both. By factual claims is meant claims about facts, rather than values, not necessarily true claims.

"Since the moral prescription has nothing to do with the mentioned facts you cannot scientifically or logically conclude from one to the other"

The moral prescription is embedded in claims about facts, such as whether there is a God etc whether he revealed the prescription to a particular individual , and whether there is such a thing as an afterlife etc. If these factual claims are invalidated it effects the validity of the prescription itself, both because one must mistrust such a source generally and because part of the alleged validity of the prescription is derived from the claim of allegedly being a divine revelation.

Moreover moral prescriptions generally make assumptions about human nature , which too are factual claims that if invalidated, invalidate the prescription itself.

And then the sob has the audacity to point fingers at Pakistan and the one incident involving the Taliban

"According to research published by the British medical journal, Lancet, selective abortions and a traditional preference for male sons could be among the causes of this serious phenomenon. A team of scientists, who analyzed data on fertility on the basis of a nationwide survey in India with six million respondents, discovered that in 1997, half a million less females were born than expected. Projected over a 20-year period, the figure climbs to 10 million. "

http://www.asianews.it/index.php?l=en&art=5068


This is worse barbarism than the high US rape stats we were talking about....the US needs to invade India in order to liberate its female folk....

TNITC masadi

Further you don't need to cover up Indian barbarism of altering the sex ratio by aborting female fetuses, the UN has reported on that as have multiple non-profits that do that work on a much larger scale than your dumb ass,

TNITC masadi

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women ARE free to ..

masadi
I got your PM. Do something to get your self esteem up so you don't resort to vile abuse.
I have a post in Veeresh's board on male-female ratio. You are welcome to bring your argument there if you are honest and have any arguments left.
I have no interest in getting into a pissing contenst with you.

masadi

It is not as though marital rape was considered rape previously and the marital part was added to it later to satisfy some sociologists. Marital rape and date rape became new crimes and not new classes of old crimes.

And the statistics are not collected for curiosity either. They are there so the criminals can be prosecuted.

At any rate, the US does have an awful lot of rape cases. This in a country where stigma surrounding rape is not as acute any more and women are not free to work and live alone. Not so in Pakistan (and India) and you have to wonder how many women would risk reporting rape given that their future would be in jeopardy.

Of course you must know all that. It's just that the great satan has to be made to look more evil than it is to justify your existence.

masadi

What do you think would be the reaction to a similar incident had it happened in the US?

Here's a suggestion. Argue with logic and facts and not with namecalling. Else you will be permanently banned from this site.

Publius writes "Also a moral standard proposed by a faith based text such as the quran comes embedded in any number of claims that are purely factual( claims such divine revelation, the origin of the world , implicit or explicit assumptions about human nature) the truthfulness or falsity of which reflects on the moral standard itself."


Make up your goddamned mind. Is it a faith based text or is it based on factual claims? Since the moral prescription has nothing to do with the mentioned facts you cannot scientifically or logically conclude from one to the other. IT might be considered perfectly moral in one type of society to bury the girl child and considered immoral in another. How are you scientifically going to determine which "morality" is the true one? You simply cannot unless you can come up with "standards" that both groups can agree on and then show scientifically which one abides by those standards more- it requires intersubjective acceptance of standards before any science can be applied to any values.

Get a goddamned education.

TNITC masadi

om prakash writes "masadi,
BTW it's Pakistan vs US comparison. Keep that in mind. India is not an issue. "

No it was not about Pakistan vs US. It was about the 1 million rapes in the US versus that one incident of the Taliban beating a woman that was receiving exceptional coverage on Chowk and the mainstream media. If pakistan is threatened by that one incident, how come the US is not threatened by the over 4 million cases of female battering in the US, that together with rape result in the leading cause of injury to women and are the LEAST prosecuted!

Marital rape before 1976 was not considered rape in the US, and before the 1990s not so in Britain. The only variation is the "marital" and not the 'rape' part, the definition of rape does not vary when the UN compiles rape data internationally. Get a goddamned education.

TNITC masadi

Khyber writes "The enemy of all is radicalism, murder, mayhem, and punishments meted out in the name of religion"

This sellout exposes himself and his pro US agenda by these miserable posts. Religion does not determine what goes on in the global system rather the political economy of capitalism does. As far as murder and mayhem goes, I'd like for this moron to tell us which religion is responsible for the over 40,000 that die every day due to deprivation in a world system where the developed countries that are less than 20% of the world's population use over 85% of global resources? Tell me also how a band of 4000 to 8000 foot soldiers can occupy a land of 170 million that has a miltiary of 650,000 with an air force and navy, not to mention an army like police force that has a strangle hold on the underlying population? Only damn fools can believe that BS which the Americans will bring to pass through their distractions using images of women being oppressed and so on when their own system rapes over 1 million women every year with impunity, i.e. those laws on the books are not used where it comes to prosecuting rapists and those that batter over 4 million women year in and year out in the U.S.

TNITC masadi

The moron will teach me economics!

In case your dumb ass doesn't understand how banks create money through deposits and lending based on interest, here, have a read

http://ingrimayne.com/econ/Banking/CheckingClearing.html

Shehzadshah writes "An increase in money supply over time is necessary otherwise the obvious result will be massive deflation, which is basically economic death and even worse than hyper-inflation."

No you moron, if the money supply is kept fixed despite economic growth then the value of that currency will go up making your exports more expensive to foreigners, leading to reduced aggregate demand and reduced economic growth until the previous equilibrium is reached. It does not signify economic death. Get a goddamned education. The crisis inherent in capitalism, that of paying workers less and less while making more and more profit is what signifies economic death, not the money supply you moron, and interest is another way of fleecing the working class plain and simple by creating a market where no real market exists because people cannot afford anything and so artificially raising the Aggregate demand based on fluff which then collapses like a house of cards as we saw recently in the U.S. Also, learn the difference between money as store of value when it a gold standard versus fiat money versus credit money.

Now go to hell,


TNITC masadi

shehzadshah writes "Interest does not create inflation dumbass, higher interest rates lead to lower inflation, take a basic econ course."

You remain a moron. Banks that operate on lending for interest create money artificially for all deposits they take and that leads to inflation. Raising interest rates reduces inflation through reduced aggregate demand, which means that jobs will be cut as well. Unlike your degree from mangu pir university, I have an accredited economics degree from the US. Now go to hell and take your half baked knowledge with you. These morons keep banning me and removing my posts and you all think you can fool people using that deceptive nonsense.

TNITC masadi

"Now, only the US and the rest of the world can step in — we, in nuclear Pakistan, can do nothing but wait and see which way the cards fall. We, including the legislators, are all helpless, they by choice, we by default.

Footnote: Karachi is already feeling the Taliban pinch. Co- educational schools in Defence, Clifton and Saddar areas are known to have received visits and been threatened if they do not change, others have been sent letters with the same message."

Mr. Cowasjee, Daily Dawn, Karachi.

WASHINGTON: US special envoy for Pakistan and Afghanistan Richard Holbrooke warned on Sunday that no other place in the world today faced a more dangerous situation than Pakistan.

In an interview to CNN, Holbrooke said that Pakistan also faced a ‘very difficult economic situation’ and needed immediate help.

‘This is a really dangerous situation in Pakistan today and we are focused on this very heavily,’ said Holbrooke.

Asked if the terrorist threat could cause Pakistan to collapse, the US envoy said that President Asif Ali Zardari and other Pakistani leaders too conceded that it was a very dangerous situation.

‘Swat is not in the tribal areas. It is only 100 miles from Islamabad … it is like East Hampton and Manhattan … people from Islamabad went to Swat for holidays … it is really an extraordinary situation.’

‘Pakistan mattered to the national security of the United States; ‘These are the people who can attack Mumbai, who attack Islamabad, Holbrooke said.

David Axelrod, a senior adviser to President Obama, told ‘CBS Face the Nation’ that Pakistan needed to ‘really focus in on what is a threat to their own stability and what is a threat to the security of the world.’

White House Chief of Staff Rahm Emanuel, however, told ABC News that the Obama administration had put ‘in place a policy in Afghanistan and Pakistan area that will change that area’ and bring stability to the region.....
Daily Dawn, Karachi.

Re: # 296 : "The idiotic islamic financial system is a disaster by any standards. Don't flatter yourself."

What do you know about the Islamic Financial System? Have you studied it? How did you reach your conclusions?

Unless you can answer these questions, you will simply prove that you are a BIGOT: a prejudiced person who is intolerant of any opinions differing from his own.

Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Folks, we have got a great article related to what we had been discussing. "Yes, We Can. By Mohammad Akhtar. Chowk Home Page.

#264 masadi

Wow, u guys r quick! or maybe you have too much time on your hands. Masadi, u moron, I'm not an economist but I do have an education, something you have only to a limited extent it seems. 'A little knowledge is a dangerous thing'. I used money as an example in this context as a store of value, which is of course its only function. Interest does not create inflation dumbass, higher interest rates lead to lower inflation, take a basic econ course. In fact it is when governments start printing and using free money that hyper-inflation results, case in point, Zimbabwe. An increase in money supply over time is necessary otherwise the obvious result will be massive deflation, which is basically economic death and even worse than hyper-inflation. However can interest rates be too high ot too low given a particular economic situation? Ofcourse, they must be managed accordingly and that is why we have central banks and bankers.

#295 RiazHaq

[Recently, the Vatican newspaper Osservatore Romano has voiced its approval of Islamic finance. The Vatican paper wrote that banks should look at the rules of Islamic finance to restore confidence amongst their clients at a time of global economic crisis. “The ethical principles on which Islamic finance is based may bring banks closer to their clients and to the true spirit which should mark every financial service,� the Osservatore Romano said. “Western banks could use tools such as the Islamic bonds, known as sukuk, as collateral�. Sukuk may be used to fund the “‘car industry or the next Olympic Games in London,� the article says.
http://www.riazhaq.com/2009/04/vatican-recommends-islamic-finance-for.htm l
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide ]

madrassaAlumnus,

Is this the same Vatican under the same Pope who said that Islam was synonymous with violence? Obviously the Vatican believes in the phrase "Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer".

The idiotic islamic financial system is a disaster by any standards. Don't flatter yourself.

Re: # 284 Urstruly: "Look, if history has any lesson for us, havn't you seen what soodkhors have done to America and the rest of the world with in the last 6 months?"

Recently, the Vatican newspaper Osservatore Romano has voiced its approval of Islamic finance. The Vatican paper wrote that banks should look at the rules of Islamic finance to restore confidence amongst their clients at a time of global economic crisis. “The ethical principles on which Islamic finance is based may bring banks closer to their clients and to the true spirit which should mark every financial service,� the Osservatore Romano said. “Western banks could use tools such as the Islamic bonds, known as sukuk, as collateral�. Sukuk may be used to fund the “‘car industry or the next Olympic Games in London,� the article says.
http://www.riazhaq.com/2009/04/vatican-recommends-islamic-finance-for.htm l
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

#284 Posted by Urstruly

“Look, if history has any lesson for us, havn't you seen what soodkhors have done to America and the rest of the world with in the last 6 months? Haven't Americans turned themselves into what the Divine Word says:

The Cow: 275 Those who devour usury are akin to the one whom the Devil by his touch has driven to madness.

And look what has happenend to them. The richest country in the world, with richest people on the globe, and yet every single penny, literally, that they spend is borrowed from someone else, some other country. What they do with this money - create tumult, devastation, and genocide around the globe as if they have been driven to madness by the touch of evil.

I don't know what else on God's green earth is so self-evident than this.�


Interest is the base of the international monetary system. When the banking system got into trouble during the past six months, no expense has been spared to shore up this system because its collapse would destroy the world economy. The system has been in existence since the Renaissance and has perhaps been the most important reason for the prosperity the world has experienced during these centuries. Titans of banking and finance who made money in this interest based economy did phenomenal good not only in the jobs that they provided to their workers or the products and innovation they brought about in this world but also in their philanthropy. People like Andrew Carnegie who spent the last 18 years of his life giving away all the money that he made. He believed and I quote, “the man who dies rich dies disgraced�. Take a look around America and everywhere you go you see Jewish philanthropic institutions. NGOs, CARE all such institutions which continue to even work in Pakistan despite your hate are a result of philanthropy at the root of which is wealth and this interest based economy. I don’t understand how all this could be bad or evil. John D Rockefeller wrote this couplet at age 86 close to the end of his life

“I was early taught to work as well as play,
My life has been one long, happy holiday;
Full of work and full of play-
I dropped the worry on the way/
And God was good to me everyday.�


Evidence of six months! Doesn’t it seem a bit premature?

Now lets look at the other side of things. How long has it been that Pakistan has been borrowing (begging)? So why not say no to any more interest based borrowing. Better still pay off all the loans which are interest bearing. Oh! you don’t have the money to pay them off. Of course the Good Book and Sunnah have a solution for that. During the Prophet’s time when you couldn’t pay off your loans you sold your women and children in slavery to pay off your debts. But wait a second this interest bearing world economy would not stoop so low to accept slaves. Not to worry, your Arab brethren will. The 70 year old Sheikh would pay good money to take your 8 year old daughter in shariat sanctioned marriage. Wallah il Azeem! Qullo mubsoot.

Some people are pro-terrorist in disguise, another radicals willing to sell out all moderate and democracy seeking Pashtuns for what is merely a false moment of seeming peace. The enemy of all is radicalism, murder, mayhem, and punishments meted out in the name of religion. This type of thinking once ruled in Japan but no more, and I predict while it may take years to achieve, that freedom of thought, of peaceful religions will be achieved in Swat as in the long run evil does not win out, right wins out. I believe that God will judge all and does not condone false religious statements in His name being used to suppress and create a Taliban and al Qaida backed regime in Swat. Swat formerly was well governed, moderate, with schools for both girls and boys, with non-religious courses of study to help them prepare to directly make a living or advance into university for higher vocational education. I condemn the blowing up of ski resorts built by the Austrians in Swat, a former source of jobs and clean revenues for the area. Numerous private e-mails have come to me from innocent Swatis who are being persecuted and tortured, some of their family members murdered, in the name of religion by these Taliban.

LETS THANK ANP COWARDS FOR DEAL WITH CRIMINAL...
READ THIS STORY AND FIGURE OUT IF U.S.A. IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THIS TOO AS MASSADI AND OTHERS BLAME U.S.A.

TNSM chief sets 4-day deadline for establishing Darul Qaza:

Apex courts are un-Islamic: Sufi
* Cleric says no room for democracy in Islam
* Tells government to withdraw judges from Malakand

MINGORA: Swat cleric Sufi Muhammad, who played a central role in the imposition of the Nizam-e-Adl Regulation in the valley, declared on Sunday that the country’s superior courts were un-Islamic and could not hear appeals against decisions of the newly set up qazi courts.

“There is no room for democracy in Islam,� said Sufi, the chief of the banned Tehreek-e-Nifaz-e-Shariat-e-Muhammadi (TNSM), while addressing a gathering in the central Grassy Ground in the main Swat town of Mingora.

Western democracy was a “system of infidels� and had divided the clerics and the people of Pakistan into factions, he said, and the Supreme Court and the high courts were strengthening the system.

The TNSM chief told the government to withdraw all judges from Malakand division – including from Kohistan district – within four days and set up a Darul Qaza to hear appeals against the decisions of qazi courts.

He also demanded the appointment of qazis at the district and tehsil levels throughout the division.

“The government will be responsible for all the consequences if our demands are not implemented,� he warned.

Sufi said he had been forced repeatedly to approve of democracy when he was in detention, but he did not agree.

The cleric said the Islamic system was yet to be established in the world because the world belonged to God, and that the existing laws were unacceptable.

He said it was impossible to implement the Nizam-e-Adl – promulgated on Wednesday following a nod from the president and the National Assembly – without support from the army and the police.

Stringent security arrangements had been made for the public meeting, with 300 TNSM operatives encircling the site. ghulam farooq/daily times monitorhttp://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2009

The Taliban are taking Swat back to the Dark Ages and the Tossing out the rights of the people in the tribal areas reflects abysmally on both the government and the Pakistani military's ability to protect Pakistan's citizens .The Taliban have imposed their authority in Swat and adjoining areas through summary executions - including beheadings - of state officials and political opponents, public whippings, and large-scale intimidation of the population. Girls' schools have been shut down, women are not allowed to leave their homes unless escorted by male family members, polio immunization programs have been halted, and nongovernmental organizations have been expelled. Music and film have been banned and stores trading in them have been destroyed. All men have been required to grow beards. Taliban and their affiliates are not only violating international human rights standards, but also acting in contravention of fundamental rights as enshrined in Pakistan's constitution. The Nizam-e-Adl law also violates the fundamental rights provisions of the Pakistani constitution and seeks to provide a legal framework for abusive administration by the Taliban. In pukhtun’s area ,90% people are against the Talibans and Alqaida. I will say the primary enemies of FATA are Talibans and Alqaida. In FATA AREA MANY PUKHTUNS SUPPORT DRONE ATTACKS,HERE IS A SRRVEY REPORT BY  Do you see drone attacks bringing about fear and terror in the common people? (Yes 45%, No 55%)
-- Do you think the drones are accurate in their strikes? (Yes 52%, No 48%)
-- Do you think anti-American feelings in the area increased due to drone attacks recently? (Yes 42%, No 58%)
-- Should Pakistan military carry out targeted strikes at the militant organizations? (Yes 70%, No 30%)
-- Do the militant organizations get damaged due to drone attacks? (Yes 60%, No 40%)

The Aryana Institute for Regional Research and Advocacy, a think tank of researchers and political activists from the NWFP and FATA, conducts research, surveys and collect statistics on various issues concerning the Taliban and Al-Qaeda terrorism and human security there. AIRRA research teams go deep inside Taliban- and Al-Qaeda-occupied areas of FATA to collect information. Most of the areas are not accessible to journalists.

272MASADI THANKS FOR UR EMAIL..HERE IS COPY OF ur POST TO MY PVT BOX...
''From: masadi
To: KHYBER
Date: Apr 19, 2009 Sun 01:04 pm
You are a moron, who is trying to justify US barbarism by bringing out these distraction issues. Pakistan is in danger only from the US and its barbaric war. Don't tell me what we are or are not discussing. Is the US in danger of collapse because so many women are raped with impunity in the U.S.? Your logic is crappy''.....Well,USA did not start war with Pakistan,U.S.A. became victim of ALQUIDA TERROR of 9/11,all those terrorists who killed 3000 people in NEW YORK had nothing against ISLAM OR PAKISTAN....THAT IS A BIG DISCUSSION AND ONE THING i AGREE THAT TALIBAN WERE creation of CIA,CHARLIE WILSON AND ISI but when SOVEITS LEFT AFGHAINSTAN EVERYONE FORGOT ABOUT TALIBAN AND THEN THEY BECAME MONSTERS AND NOW THEY TRYING TO DESTROY PAKISTAN,U NEED TO READ CHARILE WILSON BOOK,''CHARLIE WILSON'S WAR AND ALSO ''GHOST WARS'' BY STEVE COLL,Rape cases in USA and flogging innocent girl in SWAT are two different cases,when TALIBAN were ruling KABUL ,I am sure u heared their actions against women and other crimes etc.Today Pakistan is in danger because of IGNORANT TALIBAN,LAL MASJID BURQUA MULLAH AND THOSE WHO ARE SUPPORTING TALIBAN.In 21sit century u can't fight with other countries,in more then 60 years of Pakistan our leaders only stole and done nothing for Pakistan,in todays world if u want to compete other countries then get ur masses educated,learn from JAPAN,GERMANY,CHINA and other great nations of today who are on same level as USA or any other developed country,one more time i would like to say stop blaming others for ur failures and shortcoming,stop living in denial and hiding ur head in sands,read the writing on the wall.

Re: # 245...Hi,
Thanks for ur post,I just wanted to make a joke when I said why no one asks about u,anyway this guy HASHHO is total retard now he is saying I googled about Darra Adma Khel,some people are really stupid and insane,anyway keep up ur liberal and wise sensible views,talk to ya again.

Also a moral standard proposed by a faith based text such as the quran comes embedded in any number of claims that are purely factual( claims such divine revelation, the origin of the world , implicit or explicit assumptions about human nature) the truthfulness or falsity of which reflects on the moral standard itself.

Urstruly
How do you determine the cost of capital? What is this cost apart from interest?

masadi,
BTW it's Pakistan vs US comparison. Keep that in mind. India is not an issue.

masadi
Why are you so defensive?
The definition of rape varies from one criminal code to another. Again, is marital rape a crime in Pakistan? How about date rape? How are these reported?
You have made an assertion. Now back it up. Yelling louder and calling names is not going to prove your point for you.

Re: # 260

Cost of Capital is not interest; the cost of providing capital, such as, administrative services are not interest. The profit on Capital IS interest, which is forbidden. If you consider yourself so modern then how come you are oblivious of the concept of Non-proft organisations? In Muslim lexicon, it is called Qarz-e- Hasna.

We have done our home work. Have you?

Look, if history has any lesson for us, havn't you seen what soodkhors have done to America and the rest of the world with in the last 6 months? Haven't Americans turned themselves into what the Divine Word says:

The Cow: 275 Those who devour usury are akin to the one whom the Devil by his touch has driven to madness.

And look what has happenend to them. The richest country in the world, with richest people on the globe, and yet every single penny, literally, that they spend is borrowed from someone else, some other country. What they do with this money - create tumult, devastation, and genocide around the globe as if they have been driven to madness by the touch of evil.

I don't know what else on God's green earth is so self-evident than this.

#279 Posted by masadi on April 19, 2009 1:29:09 pm

blah blah blah....

US law forbids rape and prosecutes rapists....even someone as dense as you can see the difference between that and saudi LAW...


U.S. system is responsible


So the US system that outlaws rape is responsible for the rape....what about the islamic system that actually legalizes a lot of discrimination?


Logic and science cannot "evaluate"


of course...logic and science are hard(and inconvenient)...mills is the only truth...

"Logic and science cannot "evaluate" anything, they can at best tell you what is not what should be"

Of course they can. Logic and reason can evaluate propositions , claims, ideas as true or false.

They can also judge ideas as good or bad when judged against a moral standard.

If muslims accept quranic claims without evaluating them against evidence and logic they are of course abandoning reason.

#275 masadi

[Ajeya, I can understand through your reaction how you've left your mind and intellect at the door and respond based on your bigotry in a knee jerk fashion. I want to reason with reasonable people not respond to baboons that have voluntarily left the human species by abandoning what makes us human, a mind that can reason....]

Okay, intellect. Show me ONE paragraph in that book that contains something remarkable. Just one paragraph. Put your money where your mouth is. And tell us why it is remarkable.

Here's a bet. You, like ALL other muslims on Chowk, will try to find a way out.

om p writes "Is there such as thing as rape within marriage in Pakistan? How are they reported and prosecuted?"

Let me ask you the same question about India dumb ass or about the U.S just a few years back when no such thing existed but rape stats were just as high. Reported rape would always be much lower than actual rape, for actual rape stats you need a scientific sample and a survey which can just as accurately be done in Pakistan as in the U.S. The rates in Pakistan will be much lower just as they were lower when the U.S. was more of a feudal society due to traditional values which had effectively controlled women through the family rather than control them through rape and fear as they are now controlled in the U.S.

TNITC masadi

Arjun writes "The US government runs a program that gets people rape women?

no?

then it's a really bad analogy..."

Moron, when we talk of a culture of rape and culture is located/situated within a social structure and the structure is maintained by those that dominate the dominant institutions, it INDEED means that the U.S. system is responsible for the rape that is going on with impunity (therefore both implicitly and explicitly) in the U.S.

And teach your friend Publius what 'values' means. Logic and science cannot "evaluate" anything, they can at best tell you what is not what should be. The should be part is where your values kick in, dumb a$$. The values are the standards based on which you evaluate between alternatives, not science or logic.

TNITC masadi

#274 Posted by masadi on April 19, 2009 1:09:49 pm


but rather how Pakistan is threatned by the Taliban/Saudi Arabia which is revealed by their ill treatment of women. So my response to his hypocritical dumb a$$ is that if the U.S. is not threatned by the over million women that are raped with impunity there


dumbass...The US government runs a program that gets people rape women?

no?

then it's a really bad analogy....

"You evaluate based on the values you have come to accept, this is true for religious and non religious folk"

Well it depends upon the value used in evaluation. Correlation or correspondence to reality, factual evidence, and laws of logic are the only proper reason based standard used to evaluate whether something is true or false.

Any other form of 'evaluation' is not evaluation at all, in as much as it doesn't allow us to reach a true or false judgement.

masadi,
Is there such as thing as rape within marriage in Pakistan? How are they reported and prosecuted?

Ajeya, I can understand through your reaction how you've left your mind and intellect at the door and respond based on your bigotry in a knee jerk fashion. I want to reason with reasonable people not respond to baboons that have voluntarily left the human species by abandoning what makes us human, a mind that can reason....

TNITC masadi

In a personal email to me Mr. Khyber has said that we were not discussing rape in the U.S. but rather how Pakistan is threatned by the Taliban/Saudi Arabia which is revealed by their ill treatment of women. So my response to his hypocritical dumb a$$ is that if the U.S. is not threatned by the over million women that are raped with impunity there, how come Pakistan is threatened when the Taliban beat a woman? The fact is that these handpicked instances are used by those that want to ensure a Taliban success, the U.S., for ulterior motive. The Taliban are nothing without U.S. support.

TNITC masadi

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Publius writes "Comprehension is not the same thing as evaluation( as true or false or as good and bad).

Shezadshah's point, as far as I can judge was, arguments based ultimately on faith require the abandonment of reason, which is right."

Nonsense. You evaluate based on the values you have come to accept, this is true for religious and non religious folk. Comprehension of a text can challenge those values based on reason and argumentation- that is what the Quran does, challenge the BS that people have come to accept due to tradition.

TNITC masadi

Since evaluation over and above comprehension is a necessary aspect of reason.

This getting rediculus to argue with Indian being rude and impolite to other people.It would have been better if indina parents have whipped their children and taught to say yes sir, excuse sir etc than arrogent styles by dumbed down dark race people This is not proper medium to interact with such hard headed people.
We can interact when tanks from north race towards Delhi and they will be good place to chat some where in 100 miles south of Delhi.
Just stupid people. good night all stupids.

"and the very act of reading necessitates comprehension "

Comprehension is not the same thing as evaluation( as true or false or as good and bad).

Shezadshah's point, as far as I can judge was, arguments based ultimately on faith require the abandonment of reason, which is right.

Pulius wries "Well to follow any text uncritically on the assumption that one's intellect is insufficient to evaluate it does amount to "leaving your mind and intellect at the door"

A text is not followed it is read, and the very act of reading necessitates comprehension which is not possible without mind or intellect. And when the book is full of reason you cannot help but use your reasoning ability.

TNITC masadi

shehzadshah writes "In other words, being a Muslim means leaving your mind and intellect at the door. "

This is a moronic assessement. Even the most moronic of Muslim will try to find reason sooner or later for why they believe in certain things because the book that they read is full of "reason" on why its pov is the correct pov. If you leave your mind and intellect at the door, you cannot comprehend the Quran or its value or its arguments and as such you are a far distance from any form of Islam...

TNITC masadi

"One follows the Quran because one believes it to be the final word of God to be followed by mankind, not because one doesn't want to use one's intelligence which must necessarily have a limited scope"

Well to follow any text uncritically on the assumption that one's intellect is insufficient to evaluate it does amount to "leaving your mind and intellect at the door"

...forgot to add, get a goddamned education.

TNITC masadi

shehzadshah writes "Why is it halal for you to take rent for the house, but the same value in money you can only give out for free?"

Because a commodity like a house is different to a medium of exchange i.e. money. You pay rent for use value while on the other hand when you have a system of interest in place it creates artificial money, resulting in inflation which then harms the most vulnerable sectors of society as well as enslave them through debt. That is why. You cannot translate from commodities that have use value to commodities that have absolutely no use value other than exchange.

TNITC masadi

"In other words, being a Muslim means leaving your mind and intellect at the door."

I am not a Muslim, but that is ridiculous. One follows the Quran because one believes it to be the final word of God to be followed by mankind, not because one doesn't want to use one's intelligence which must necessarily have a limited scope.

Re: # 259 Sufi is honest and straight forward in thinking and elaboration in this matter. He has correctly said so everybody understands. Supreme court is not Supreme but Nizam E adl rulings are supreme and president knows it and has signed deal.Supreme court rulings, constuitution remains suspended or is superseded by Nizam E adl.

Re: # 260 That was brilliant......

Re:#259 Urstruly
You are right, the Supreme Court has violated fundamentals of the Constitution. It is as Pakistani an institution as any other. However, concerning violation of the articles you have mentioned, the clear fact is that a modern state cannot function in accordance with Shariah, at least not as you fundos understand it. Interest is simply the cost of capital; tell me, if you have a house and I want to use it, u expect me to pay rent for it. If you sell the house instead, get 10m rupees for it and give me the money to use instead, why should I not have to pay rent for that as well? Why is it halal for you to take rent for the house, but the same value in money you can only give out for free? Of course, you will now respond that it is so written in the Koran, and that is all the reason you need. In other words, being a Muslim means leaving your mind and intellect at the door.

The TNSM leader Sufi Mohammad Sahib has said that the Pakistan's Supreme Court and High Court are institutions that are anti-Shariah; also an appeal against Shariah (in this case) is also akin to kuffar.

That has ignited a spark in my mind to explore if that is the case. Lets start with the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court is an Institution that is established under Article 175 & 176 of the Constitution. Supreme Court has no authority to legislate, however, it is the only authority that can interprett a any law legislated by the National or Provincial legislative assemblies.

UNtil very recent past Supreme Courts have been stepping out of their bounds by legislating law under the doctrine of "Law of Necessity" (whatever that means); thus violating the Constition that attributes Sovereignity to Allah.

The second crime of Supreme court has been that it itself has been violating Article 2, 2A, and 227-231 of the Constitution by "legalizing" the laws that are clear vilation of Shariah as demanded by above mention articles of the Constition. A glaring example is the establishment and enforcement of laws that permit an economy based on Riba and INterest. The second example is that of "reforming" Hudood Ordinance which in fact legalizes the prostitution, fornication, and Adultery. And not only that gaining monetray benefits from prostition of weak and those who cannot themselves as a minor dismeanor. In other words pimping women and children into prostitution is not a crime any more.

The Supreme court, has thus committed a great offence against Allah and the Command of his Prophet (pbuh).

So the question is that, now when, people have been able to establish a system of justice that upholds the law of Allah and His Prophet (pbuh) with in the soil of Pakistan, should all the Muslims in Pakistan consider Supreme Court as a legal and Constitution entity?? Does Supreme Court has it in iteself to abide itself by the Articles 2, 2A, and 227-231 and thus legitimize itself?????

Skeptical sahib,TehsinA sahib, RiazHaq sahib, and akchema sahib,

all i can say is great posts on how pakis relate to modernity and progress. have you interacted with the pakis in your own neck of the wood lately? can you change the view of paki diaspora to opine on current condition in puristan?

as i see the landscape of the paki diaspora it appears that only those who support alt-f have finally decided to come out with full blown credential on being a secular society. i wonder what is taking the punjoos to decide that secularism is good for puristan? unless punjoos are reeducated that secularism is not "la-denyat" the menace that pakis face today can not be removed.

i have been asking hamidm sahib for the past 6 months or so that pakis must ask the UNSC to provide international forces to completely eradicate this menace. Too many innocent lives are being lost with this kind of paki politics. it seems that paki establishment do not want or can not provide the security of it's own people. all they seek is money to fatten their own wallets.

BTW, tehsinA, good job on neutralizing yoursTruly with his pontification regarding islamic history. i have learnt from your post.

riazHaq sahib, i am assuming that you are posting as an individual and not through what you call worldwide paki organization.

hey guys, keep up the good work. puristan should be freed from the clenching fists of the punjoos.

Re: # 253
You see the problem is that majority is in strange state of denial...before this Nizam i Adl, majority kept on saying that USA was behind the violence in Swat and Taliban are being blamed .The central mind boggling non sense was that USA was also conducting drone attacks and at the same time some or the other fighting with Pakistan army also!!!!or that all the suicide blasts were also actually conducted by CIA and were actually an attempt to defame Islam. Even the flogging video was not condemned but all were actually trying to question its authencity. At least this barbaric bill has for the first time made it clear that Taleban are actually behind violence and are prepared to exercise it to get their way. Now Pakistani media particularly idiots like Insar Abbasi and Hamid Mir are trying to give a spin of "justice" poverty blah blah. Pakistani have to realize that they are facing an actual menace here. These people are barbaric and have actually blown up innocent people. These silly efforts of glamorising them should be stopped

Re: # 244, #251, 252

See post # 253 to gauge the magnitude of onslaught against poetry, music and culture. Thanks.

There seems to be some suggestion that the flogging video is a fake.. Who faked it ?

Re: # 248 Tehsin

You sound quite angry for some reason. I will debate with you when you regain control of your good senses and judgement.

Dear Friends,

For a long time we have had our heads stuck in the sand. Taliban are
already in Sindh, they are taking your land one inch at a time. Before
you know they will be blowing Shah Latif, Qalandar Shabaz, and many
seats of our Sufi anchors before your naked eyes. These are not
Pushtoons from North but our own native Sindhis. Forget autonomy,
water issue, language issue, or equal opportunites within Pakistan or
outside of it. Sindhis will be all equal in misery under Taliban rule.

This is no joke. Wake up and forget your petty differences. Unite on
preserving your identity. Make religious extremist # 1 threat to your
national existence. Believe me, YOU CAN ARGUE AND NEGOTIATE WITH THOSE
WHO BELIEVE IN LIFE ON EARTH. YOU CAN'T ARGUE AND NEGOTIATE WITH
TALIBAN. Here is one example they have started nibbling on your
freedoms in Sindh.

Iqbal Tareen
____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _______

Pakistan festival dancers banned
By Nisar Khokar
BBC Urdu service, Larkana

Leaders of a religious group in the south of Pakistan have banned
women dancers from a traditional spring festival, officials say.

Organisers of the festival in the province of Sindh say they have had
to cut the 10-day festival to three days as a result of the threats.

The clerics who asked the dancers to leave the area were accompanied
by local police, witnesses said.

The group, called the JUI-F, has its main support base in the north-west.

But the JUI-F (Jamiat Ulema-i-Islam- Fazlur) has been spreading its
wings in the south of the country as well.

The JUI-F is led by cleric Maulana Fazlur Rahman, who is known for his
close ties to the Taleban in Afghanistan.

His is one of the most influential and resourceful organisations in
Pakistan working for what is described as a "pure, Islamic state"

"''MUNG YO DA KHYBER ZALMEE''do u know who is the singer of this song,oh may be u dont know if its pashto........."

Idiot this is a famous song by Khayal Mohammed. Any one who knows how to google, like you did, can tell you that.


"I was born in DARA ADMAM KHEL,do u know where is that,only thing I can tell u,in DARA ADMAM KHEL "

You were born in Dara but still can't spell it right, not once but twice you got it wrong in one sentence.

"10 year old boys play with real guns not with toy guns like you as little boy used to play"

This is a cliché that some nonpukhtoon writers have used in the past. This was recently used by an american writer too. This is so bogus and stereotypical that no Pakhtoon would repeat that. Pukhtoon have been handling guns for almost two centuries now and know how devasting it could be in a ten years old hand. They may show their kids how to use guns but you will never find a ten years old in Dara Adamkhel "playing" with the guns. Are you sure you were born in Dara?

".........have a nice day everyone....just don't live in denial..READ THE WRITING ON THE WALL..........GOD BLESS PAKISTAN.....LIBERAL FORCES NEEDS TO WAKE UP AND CRUSH RELIGIOUS FANATICS ALL OVER THE WORLD."

Time for you to run again like you did last night.
Before you go, can you answer questions in my previous post?

As we all expound breathlessly about Taliban, Swat and aid to Pakistan, India has received over $100 billion in foreign aid since the early 1950s and continues to receive billions more. But here's a video link for all the chest-thumping, values-talking, caste-system-praising, Indian bigots infesting Chowk: http://www.mercurynewsphoto.com/2008/leftbehind/

This is the kind of persistent and deep poverty that Indian PM Manmohan Singh acknowledges as "India's shame".

Ironically, there are some parallels between the violent Maoists movement in India and the Taliban militants in Pakistan, in spite of their diametrically opposed ideologies. Maoists say they are fighting for the rights of neglected tribal people and landless farmers, as are the Taliban in FATA and NWFP. Though their tactics vary, both movements have killed dozens of people, including security personnel, in the last few weeks. Both movements control wide swathes of territory in their respective countries. Both continue to challenge the writ of central or provincial authorities.

A recent issue of San Jose Mercury News has a pictorial about grinding poverty in India done by John Boudreau and Dai Sugano. This heartbreaking pictorial illustrates the extent of the problem that India faces, a problem that could potentially be very destabilizing and put the entire society at the risk of widespread chaos and violence.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

TehsinA#249:

It's good to see you back in full force after a long, long time. As they say across the border (and used to say on the "right" side as well), "ghar ka bhedi lanka dhaavay". Your knowledge of Islamic history is really quite deep. BTW, the Prophet can be claimed to have not married his daughter in law as he receive/obtained a revelation negating the adoption of his son; you could have however added the ban on his widows remarrying.

Urstruly is not alone in his interpretaion: Maulana Maudoodi had himself suggested that Muslims who remained in India must follow the laws of the country, even if they are treated worse than untouchables as Malechh.

"I have no problem being led by a kafir if he is just, honest, and law abiding. This is the sunnah of our Prophet (pbuh) as well."

This was Urstruly's statement that I responded to in #248.

#162 Posted by Urstruly

Man! With this statement you have put the whole Islamic corpus on its head. Just like every other drawing room intellectual you have changed and reinterpreted the whole Islamic history and jurisprudence on a sunnah (of dubious origin). First of all about being just which comes from justice, where does the Quran talk about justice? The only places where justice is mentioned, it is in reference to judgment day when God will administer justice. In this world justice is only in terms of revenge, blood money, eye for an eye which the inheritors or your clan are obligated to extract if harm comes to you. This is precisely why there was never a qazi or arbiter in early Islam. The concept of organized justice with a judge was a later development during Ummayad times when this Byzantine practice made its way into the caliphate.

Let’s now look at ‘law abiding’. Where did you come up with this one? When was a Muslim leader subject to laws? Muslim leaders from day one were a law unto themselves. The tradition starts with the Prophet, he made exceptions for himself and had Quran confirm them (I guess amendments added) especially in terms of more then 4 wives, marrying a daughter in law etc. etc. You can make a case that Umar was just and law abiding but that was only because he CHOSE to do it, there was no compulsion on him to be just or law abiding. From then on the ummah has always prayed for having a just and law abiding ruler but there are no restrictions, checks or balances on the leader. The ruler is an absolute king so his rule depends upon his nature and drifts between kingship and tyranny.

By saying a kafir is okay as your leader and meekly drifting back to Michigan your hypocrisy is complete. I guess Obama fits the bill for you. But hey, if that is okay then why not go a bit further for your brethren, you cannot bring the whole Pakistani qaum to America so what the hell, what is wrong with Manmohan Singh? He fits your criteria as well, so why Pakistan, why not abandon the experiment. ‘Jithay di khoti othay e aan khaloti’.

Now that you have joined the ranks of the burqa clad maulana you should go see Hamid M. He will be happy to share some vodka tonics with you and don’t worry ‘muft ki sharab qazi ko bhi halaal hoti hay’.

An interesting article in the News today

Democracy under siege



Sunday, April 19, 2009
Ghazi Salahuddin

We have heard the liberal voices. They have declared, in unison, their outrage at the institution of Nizam-e-Adl in Swat because it proclaims, without any ambiguity, a victory for the Taliban. And it is hard to believe that this document of surrender has been signed by a coalition that embodies the will of the people of Pakistan as expressed in the elections of February 18, 2008. But wasn't that electoral verdict a resounding rejection of the very elements that are now increasingly calling the shots?

In that sense, the Pakistan People's Party and the Awami National Party – the two political parties that represent liberal and somewhat secular sentiments in our polity – have not only betrayed the articles of their faith, they have also rejected the very spirit and purpose of democracy. After all, people vote for a party or a candidate in the expectation of a certain response and fidelity to a set of values and promises.

Yes, the National Assembly did adopt a resolution on Monday, April 13, that asked President Asif Ali Zardari to accord approval to the Nizam-e-Adl Regulation 2009. Later in the evening, the Regulation was signed by the president. Technically, this amounted to a democratic process. However, if you look closely, you would see that it was merely an expedient drill in which the elected representatives were willing to toe the line. As if this was some mundane issue with little bearing on the life of the people – or the destiny of the nation.

There was, though, a lone voice of defiance. Ayaz Amir, elected on a PML-N ticket, showed the courage of his convictions and said that the agreement was signed under the shadow of the Taliban's guns. He also made the pertinent point that these guns had turned out to be more powerful than the guns of the Pakistan Army. Since Ayaz Amir is a renowned columnist, and a friend, I felt reassured that the media may still have more commitment and conscience than what one finds in the political class.

In any case, the parliamentary exercise was not a manifestation of how democracy should function. Here was a highly controversial issue and credible reports had said that Asif Zardari was not anxious to sign the agreement. It was suggested, on behalf of the party, that he would wait until peace was established in Swat on a sustained basis. When the decision to take the issue to the National Assembly was announced, ANP leaders, desperately seeking Nizam-e-Adl, saw this as a delaying tactic because such matters are generally processed thorough committees and extensive deliberations. They even threatened to walk out of the coalition.

Then, what happened? Lo and behold, the National Assembly, after waiting for two months, only took three hours, the time it often takes to watch a movie in a cinema house, to put its (rubber?) stamp on the agreement. The great twist in the tale was that all those women members of the National Assembly, who personify in their very being a rejection of the Taliban code of life, kept quiet.

Of course, it was left to the MQM, as a party, to come out against the agreement in a forceful manner. But it decided to abstain from voting and its members left the House before the adoption of the resolution. Would it not have been better if the MQM members had articulated their vigorous stance against Talibanisation on the floor of the House, if only for the record?

Come to think of it, many of our present sorrows are rooted in the rulers' disdain for the spirit and the fundamental principles of democracy. We know that ritualistic observances like elections and formation of governments on the basis of numerical strength in a legislature do not a democracy make. A democratic dispensation would protect the human rights of all citizens and ensure rule of law in which laws apply equally to all citizens. In a democracy, laws govern and not individuals who consider themselves above law.

For ordinary citizens, democracy would remain a hollow slogan if it does not improve their lives and if their rights are not protected. Law and order that also ensures a sense of freedom is the first imperative for any system of governance. Sadly, our rulers are callously unmindful of the needs and aspirations of the people – and this too has contributed to the rise of the Taliban.

On Friday, The New York Times had a long report, with its focus on Swat, on how the Taliban "exploit class rifts to gain ground in Pakistan". The irony here is that historically, the socialists have been preoccupied with the issues of class and exploitation of the poor and the underprivileged. We can see that at the same time that there is a surge in poverty and injustice for the 'wretched of the earth' in Pakistan, the ruling class and the elite live in obscene opulence. The VVIP culture, bolstered by threats of terror, deserves, say, a Tolstoy to recount the onset of a monumental disaster.

What is imminent seems instantly recognisable, except to those who are in power. International response to Nizam-e-Adl is quite instructive. Many Pakistanis, with their distrust of American intentions, may tend to ignore the comment made by the White House that the accord to put part of the country under Islamic law was against human rights and democracy. However, the Human Rights Watch, an independent group based in New York, was more candid in its observations. It said that Nizam-e-Adl would take Swat back to "dark ages".

Meanwhile, more and more think tanks and area experts are losing hope in Pakistan. The latest report, published in newspapers on Saturday, said that a growing number of US officials and experts now believe that it may be impossible to prevent Pakistan from disintegrating. Even if this is too pessimistic a stance, what are our rulers doing to deal with the challenges that are posed by the rise of the Taliban, religious extremism, social disintegration and a national sense of anxiety about our future?

Let me conclude with an encounter that a friend has narrated. In a parking lot in Karachi, he noticed about half a dozen drivers listening to what he thought was news on the car radio. When he walked up to them to check, he learnt that it was a cassette of a speech by a militant religious leader. My friend saw this as an example of how the minds of the poor have become fertile for angry and extremist thoughts. This is what has happened to a country founded by Mohammad Ali Jinnah. But are the followers of Zulfikar Ali Bhutto and Bacha Khan truly concerned about this state of affairs?

Re: # 245

[[the reason no one asks me such questions is because i have spent more time than you with these geniuses of chowk and know how to respond to their stupid questions with equally stupid answers. ]]

I have no idea what this discussion is about ... anyhow ... what comes to mind is the following:

- pots and kettles

- nathuram and prem singh

choose depending on 'cultural' background

#233 khyber: the reason no one asks me such questions is because i have spent more time than you with these geniuses of chowk and know how to respond to their stupid questions with equally stupid answers.

i am puzzled about what happened to HP ever since he changed his nick to Hasho. This has been a rough winter, after all. as for the indians on chowk - these are Chowk Registered Experts from India on Pakistan. Their expertise being developed by reading pakistani online newspapers. So dont expect them to know the way from the Hangu to Peshawar - poor jay thakeray has to read the map every day just to find his way to the little stone thingy to whom he prays every day for bad things to happen to Pakistan.

#237 Hasho...This comment really made me laugh,''still can't tell how to get to Hangu from Peshawar.''
And i was smiling so much that I just took another beer so I can laugh at poor HASHO,hey let me ask you one thing ,TRANSLATE THIS IN ENGLISH OR URDU,
''MUNG YO DA KHYBER ZALMEE''do u know who is the singer of this song,oh may be u dont know if its pashto.........I was born in DARA ADMAM KHEL,do u know where is that,only thing I can tell u,in DARA ADMAM KHEL 10 year old boys play with real guns not with toy guns like you as little boy used to play.........have a nice day everyone....just don't live in denial..READ THE WRITING ON THE WALL..........GOD BLESS PAKISTAN.....LIBERAL FORCES NEEDS TO WAKE UP AND CRUSH RELIGIOUS FANATICS ALL OVER THE WORLD.
Pakistan Is Partitioned By Its National Assembly......
Syed Hussaini nice article,if anyone with sense can offer how to stop those monster Taliban from brining down Pakistan,what Pakistan should do,what pakistani politicians and army should do before world watches NATO forces marching from khyber to karachi?I thick ALTAF HUSSIAN makes more sense then anyone else now a days.

Re: # 227

The poor little Kyber, he has blamed the saudis, the army, the taliban...the govt everything. But has failed to understand teh situation in a historical context. All this so called tragedy of the pakiland did not happen overnight. It has progressed steadily into that,..because of people like Kyber who never understood the doctrine that created pakistan, the TNT.

AS long as TNt is not discredited along with the smashing o those photos in govt offices, the march of the taliban can never be stopped.

Listen Kyber...listen carefully...you can hear the roar of the pakistanis, educated and also the poor...lailah illalla ..pakistan ka matlab kys.

TNT has to be discredited...jinnah has to be given a position next to that guy from europe with a funny mush.

Then and then only can you stop the taliban march

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

shankar, I think khyber has said who he is. That should be that. After that, other people may accept what he says or reject it, depending upon if his statements make sense to them or not.

Re: # 239

Oh you've got me; now what would people at Chowk think about me. You've tarnished my image so bad that people here will never listen to me.

I dont understand punjabi.

In the culture that I'm a slave of, your answer is called a "bob & weave".
Its a tactic used by a crooked politician who is caught with his pants down.

It makes a HUGE difference to your credibility (& character) if your soapbox is in Flint or in Pakistan.

Re: # 230

I dont know if you understand punjabi or not but that is what we usually say to the inquisitor "kyon? toon dhi dainee aye ya pehn?

You can read what khyber is posting in many Indian and US papers. The guy has no clue abt Pakistan.
There are two Pushtoon here Adam Khan and Trich Mir and they show their frustrations often but no one has ever doubted their origin and mostky people are sympathetic to what they write. They actually know the Pukhtoon Culture and how things are done there.
Taking Khyber as a nic does not mean that the guy is actually from FATA.
Let's hear something from him abt the Pathan culture and why the Patha s are supporting the deal.
Does he know anything abt Major Ishaq?

He can Google his behind as much as he wants but still can't tell how to get to Hangu from Peshawar.

Sherlock Hasho and masadi living in denial and such people can say anything.

Khyber,

I dont mean to be disrespectful. What you are saying is similar to what I'm hearing from majority view of indian & pakistani "peons of the west".

Now; if you were originally from that part of the world & have cultural & emotional ties to it; we'd like to hear it...nobody wants a copy of your birth certificate, yaar...

just curious to know if Sherlock Hasho is right.

Re: # 231
#231 Posted by Prem on April 18, 2009 7:23:44 pm
khyber is probably a Pakistani of Afghan origins. A Pushtoon..............hey that was like a million dollar question and if u were on slum dogs u cud probably win..........Thanks

Hey how come no one asks ,'' tahmed32'' such qusetions,we both are on same page.....lol

#229 Posted shankarRe: well interesting if u want to know about my background,lets put it this way I dont hide my head in sands,like URSTRULY IN POST SAID that I am aware of what is going on around us,I am human being,I have respect for Indians and everyone else,I dont need anyone's certificate to be a Pakistani or Muslim,I don't like people who live in denial.

khyber is probably a Pakistani of Afghan origins. A Pushtoon.

& while youre on the board, Mr Urstruly, whats up with the accusation that you are still in the US?

Mr Khyber,

Your posts sound heartfelt & passionate. If you are indeed of Pakistani origin, you should give us more of your background (while maintaining your privacy, of course ).

Your credibility has been questioned by Hasho. Makes a big difference, on Chowk, whether you are an Indian masquerading or the "genuine thing", at least a NRP! :)

Re: # 227

You seem like an intelligent person who is well aware of what is going on around us. One thing I don't understand is and I have asked many people here is that if Saudi Arabia is financing terrorists in pakistan then why it gives 100s of millions of dollars to Pakistani rulers as it did yesterday in Japan. May be I don't understand the subtleties of International watfare and propaganda but what SA is doing seems counterproductive to me.

Sometimes ago some of the people on this website vehemently argued, and some till do, that all moulvis are on Americas payroll and they fought americas war against russians; then the questions is why can't Americans buy them back since moulvis are such a salable commodity. The last American butcher could have made to appear as a hero in front of his people, but he was bid farewell out of his office amid a chittar parade. Why is that?

Wahhabi radicals are determined to destroy a gentler, kinder Islam financed by SAUDI ARABIA. Wahhabi fundamentalism has advanced so quickly in Pakistan partly because the Saudis have financed the building of so many madrasas, which have filled the vacuum left by the collapse of state education.  The Pakistani government could finance schools that taught Pakistanis to respect their own religious traditions, rather than buying fleets of American F-16 fighters and handing over education to the Saudis. In Pakistan, the video of the woman’s flogging proves the bankrupt nature of the army’s strategy. Failing to defeat the Taliban on the battlefield, the army tried to appease them with a peace deal in February. It ceded the insurgents control of Swat, 100 miles from Islamabad, and allowed free rein for their repressive ways. The woman was beaten after declining a Taliban fighter’s marriage proposal, the head of the Peshawar Bar Association told reporters. Many Pakistanis have wasted their time decrying the video as a conspiracy intended to defame Islam and Pakistan. They should be demanding that the army — Pakistan’s strongest and most functional institution — defend against an insurgency that increasingly threatens the state. Like their military and political leaders, Pakistan’s people are in a pernicious state of denial about where the real danger lies. Swat has become the new battleground for the jihadists from all over the country it is the failure of the state, agreement with militants is a government surrender. The Swat deal amounts to the opening of a Pandora’s Box: where will it stop? The other chapters of the Taliban are only waiting to ask for their own ‘Islamic’ government. Is this the beginning of the real Talibanisation of the Pakistan?
In the view of analysts, the growing nightmare in Swat is a capsule of the country's problems: an ineffectual and unresponsive civilian government, coupled with military and security forces that, in the view of furious residents, have willingly allowed the militants to spread terror deep into Pakistan.  Taliban are involve in crimes against humanity, There is no limit to Talibans ruthlessness !They can not only behead their enemies but they can also blow up graves of their enemies  and hang their dead bodies to trees and poles. The government has made no real effort to educate people about the nature of the threat that confronts us. Maulana Abdul Aziz AKA Burqa-posh Maulvi of Lal Masjid (Red Mosque) has got released under an agreement that he will not create any trouble for the government, however according to Dawn.com, hate literature and militant propaganda pamphlets and CDs were openly sold outside Lal Masjid during Friday prayers .we may be witnessing return of notorious Lal Masjid Moral Squad, which used to go to markets around Lal Masjid and threaten the shopkeepers to avoid selling music and video film CDs and cassettes or face their wrath .On the other hand,There have been numerous reports of ex-military personnel joining the ranks of the terrorists and fighting alongside the Taliban in Afghanistan. It was shocking to read that ex-army officers were involved in several terror plots, including the kidnapping of filmmaker Satish Anand and the murder of General Alvi. To make matters worse, an English daily has reported that the TNSM in Swat has a number of ex-army officers serving on its ‘executive shura’ and assisting the butchers of Swat.

These brainwashed ex-military folks are eulogising the murderous Taliban at the expense of our country they had once sworn to serve and protect. While this batch of ex-servicemen, led by the likes of Hamid Gul and Khalid Khawaja, is clearly beyond rehabilitation, those currently serving in the military must recognise the insidious nature of the Taliban-Al Qaeda doctrine and the threat it poses to our country.

There is another unfortunate aspect: some strategists in the military and the security establishment continue to portray the Taliban as a strategic asset despite the havoc these criminals have wreaked in Pakistan. These hawks need a reality check. The military must accept the fact that our national interest is only served by pounding these thugs into submission, not coddling them. One has to be wary of the future. Pakistan at this point of its existence is like Humpty Dumpy. Once it falls, all the kings horses and all the kings men will not be able to put it together again. Balkanization is almost a guarentee at this point.
This balkanization, if it happens, will make Yugoslavia look like a cakewalk. It really is a worst case scenario and it isn't foreign billions that will keep it from happening. What it will take does not exist.

Re: # 141..
what u r trying to say???,on this forum we were not discussing rape issues in the U.S,If u have any real education u should talk about the TALIBAN ISSUE in Pakistan which is going to destroy Pakistan soon,its SAUDI ARABIA which is destroying Pakistan by spreading wahabi version of Islam in pakistan and saudi regime supporting taliban,u claim u r teaching criminalogy and if u r in the STATES then u sound just another typical Pakistani who is living here but hates America.

Re: # 224 "Discredited or not, they still have a firm grip on Pakistan. The taliban are nothing and the only way they can become something is through the U.S."

The "firm grip" you talk about loosening up ...bit by bit, district by district. Punjab, the heartland, is already under assault. And the Taliban are only about a hundred miles from Islamabad..and they have Mulla Abdul Aziz freely roaming there already, thanks to our "brave" chief justice.

As improbable as it may seem to you, I think it's only a matter of time before Taliban run over all of Pakistan. And I don't see it necessarily as a bad thing. At a minimum, there will be a serious challenge to the power the entrenched feudals and military, and the US will not be able to determine its outcome. There may be other foreign powers such as China that may have a bigger influence in the region through their checkbook diplomacy in the near future.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Pak Alumni WW writes "All three power centers have been discredited over the years and the rag-tag band of Taliban is emerging as the new power center."

Discredited or not, they still have a firm grip on Pakistan. The taliban are nothing and the only way they can become something is through the U.S. Saying that a group of thugs with Ak-47s and RPGs are a "power center" is as fantastic an analysis as the claim that UBL sitting in a cave in Afghanistan planned and executed 9/11. Get a goddamned education. The way power is socially constructed via the U.S. media by the U.S elite and then structured into reality through their covert support of these thugs is lost on morons whose analysis is based on a simple cops and robbers scenario. CIA operatives in SWAT cannot fool the people, where was their resistance against the 'corrupt elite' pre 9/11- how come their resistance against the elite coincides with U.S. desires in the region and supported through drone attacks. These shenanigans can only fool peons of the West (the Pak Alumni WWs) that are simply rehashing the U.S. official version of events by reframing them as being a fight against the 'corrupt elite' of Pakistan.

TNITC masadi

Urstruly writes "Fazl-ullah drives an armored humvee - thank you very much."

That is because the US has chosen to let him operate to fragment Pakistan, otherwise they could easily send a hellfire down towards his fat ass, which they will as soon as they are done using him as a whore.

TNITC masadi

Riaz:

I am not talking about the virtue, but reality. In India due to this calmness you can still find layers that have not changed during thousands years.

Pakistani awam is 160 million, Pakistani Jawans are only one million privileged caste. Out of these million, their officers are even more privileged caste that has been so for generations with very little any genetic pool enhancement who routinely marry among fuedals, bureaucrats, army officers and powerful politicians.

It would very sad, if you cannot see Pakistani awam beyond these one million. You really do not see, or just for the sake of scoring points you wrote what you wrote?

If $15b gets squandered, do you think Allah can save Pakistan? Talibans will bring their form of corruption too.

This kind of thinking I have seen among my Pakistani friends, and I have called it depression and dejection.

Pak ALumni WW writes "That's why the Taliban are gaining traction because they are seen by the people as fighting the corrupt elite....while causing collateral damage."

No they are not. The reason why they are gaining grassroots support is only because the externals (US drones) are seen as attacking the homeland. The mullah group regardless of where it stands against the internal elite has never commanded support of the people, and has been used by those very same corrupt elite to preserve their advantages.

TNITC masadi

"I think the fouj is already backing away from the fight to protect the interests of the landed elite, as seen from the Swat experience."

The Swat deal is not a political move but rather a military strategy on part of fouj. Do you think fouj cares a damn about ANP sellouts who used to get their salaries from Roos and now baray abba amrika sahib.

The Taliban brought the war into Sawt as their military startegy to stretch the napak fouj from Torkhum to Chitral - The startegy has worked, they butchered as many mercaneries in 3 years as were killed in all five Indo-Pak wars or even more. Napak fouj's supply lines were stretched thin and most of all the supply lines to their dear masters were being attacked on daily basis - drivers being beheaded and military supplies looted. Fazl-ullah drives an armored humvee - thank you very much.

Napak fouj in order to sacve its own hienie pushed their civilian front men to sell Swat "Deal" as a "civilin brilliant political idea". The rental propagandist in PPP are trying to sell it to media as the next best thing that zardari has invented after slice bread and monkey-ass-wipe moustaches.

The point is, napak fouj and civilian chors have already been paid 1.5 billion for this years murder and mayhem. They will do whatever they are told to do.

PS. But it won't work.

Re: # 215

The Taliban are targeting all of the power centers: Pak Military, the traditional clergy (Fazlur Rahman, Husain Ahmed etc) AND the feudals. And the Taliban have the upper hand at the moment. All three power centers have been discredited over the years and the rag-tag band of Taliban is emerging as the new power center. I see a long, bloody struggle ahead but there will be eventual reform that delivers for the common people....it'll be the first in South Asia and the whole region.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 214 Anil: "and you buy it too. Where is Pakistani awam, the real patient? It is not even in your mind. I am afraid, this kind of mindset could easily squander $15 billion too, and Pakistani awam may get nothing."

The military jewans ARE the Pakistani awam. That's where the military recruits them, nor Mars or Pluto.

I do think that much of the $15b would be squandered by Pakistan's narrow and corrupt elite...including the feudals and the military. That's why the Taliban are gaining traction because they are seen by the people as fighting the corrupt elite....while causing collateral damage.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 213 anil: "It may be news to you that Pakistan is turbulent and India is calm."

Recently, a British Minister Alexander contrasted the rapid growth in China with India's economic success - highlighting government figures that showed the number of poor people had dropped in the one-party communist state by 70% since 1990 but had risen in the world's biggest democracy by 5%.

Do you think it's a virtue to be calm in the face of great injustice to the 850m poor Indians living on less than $2 a day and 43% of its children going hungry, and 1500 of its farmer committing suicide every year? If this situation makes you calm, then I have to wonder what would upset you. Maybe you are satisfied with the false image of "Shining India" because it has served you well as an individual.

Staying calm means accepting the status quo of hunger, poverty, injustice, etc. And I am glad that Pakistanis are not willing to accept the status quo. There is no guarantee that the results will be Pakistanis liking, but they have to continue the fight to bring about change rather than be fatalistic in attitude.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Urstruly writes "Hadith of Prophet (pbuh), he says every human being is born a Muslim and given a chance overwhelming number of human beings will try to do the right thing."

The Quran says 12:103 " No matter how hard you try, most among humankind will NOT believe."

Have a nice day and get an education.

TNITC masadi

Re: # 212

Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide (RHPAW)

There is no peasant revolt, the state or establishment is repositioning itself, reorganizing for the coming battle, all this hullabaloo is being created for the petty bourgeois in Pakistan, to build a case for the ultimate takeover. There is a state owned Emerald mine is Swat run by the Taliban, they have yet to distribute ownership rights to the locals. Extortion or protection money from businesses is common and their reach extends all over Pakistan and yet we believe in their class struggle. To say things are bad in Pakistan will be an understatement, establishment has played their trump card and that is their strategic asset the Taliban or religious extremists all over the country and that is why these politicians are running with their tails between the legs.

Re: # 212

Riaz:

You quote...

“We can survive without American money and arms if we have to, though of course we don’t want to. But we cannot survive without the loyalty of our jawans [men].�

and you buy it too. Where is Pakistani awam, the real patient? It is not even in your mind. I am afraid, this kind of mindset could easily squander $15 billion too, and Pakistani awam may get nothing.

Re: # 192

Riaz:

Not to deny about Maoists. Do you know that they have been going on from before probably you were born? Do you honestly believe Maoists and Taliban are of similar reach, and strength? If your answer is different than mine, then you should pat yourself that Pakistani slumdog has done exceedingly well in marketing itself to collect billions, than Indian slumdogs.

It may be news to you that Pakistan is turbulent and India is calm. This is a basic difference, where does it come from we all can have different opinions. Inside India, Maoists is not the only movement, there are many more local turbulent current much the same way as they are in Pacific Ocean. Even Tsunami did not empty Indian Ocean. Indian institutions and Pakistani institutions have demonstrated what can rock Pakistan is not enough to rock India.

Can you visualize what would be Pakistan's cry and response, if Hindu extremists had done in three five star hotels in Islamabad? I can help you if you have difficulty in visualizing.

The world community has committed $10-billion from the U.S., and $5-billion from Japan and others. I did not hear any commitment from China in it. On the contrary, Zardari returned empty handed from China. I know you counted all those projects that have been signed up with China, don't you think it would be better that you revisit and find out the progress and write that here.

Bottom line is that the world, with or without China, at large is behind Pakistan to make it a calm place so that it too can manage Taliban like Tsunamis without getting rocked. Why don't you write about leaders in Pakistan who can truly take this world support and build a calmer Pakistan?

Do you believe this commitment of $15-billion (if I have not double counted) is to use terrorist as "strategic asset", or to solve imaginary now "water problem" to take panga with India? This not-India mindset, and all cost justified for a panga with India among Pakistani leaders, got Pakistan where it is today. Please seed your generation to get over India, despite provocations, and the sooner Pakistani leaders can, the faster they would see true priorities.

Re: # 211

I think the fouj is already backing away from the fight to protect the interests of the landed elite, as seen from the Swat experience. The soldiers and policemen are refusing to fight on behalf of the landlord politicians against the Taliban who are supported by their oppressed brethren. There has been a big increase in court martials.

A Pakistani general reportedly told Prof Lieven of London's King's College recently, “We can survive without American money and arms if we have to, though of course we don’t want to. But we cannot survive without the loyalty of our jawans [men].�

Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 210

Yes, good point. Is there something that could be done to stop the revolution besides killing the revolutionaries? Because 8 year of concerted efforts of killing the revolutionaries by the army of a superpower power and armies of 37 european nations who have ahd monoply over the violence for the past 500 years has only made them stronger than ever. Not to mention NaPak fouj who has employed every war crime banned by Geneva Convention and International Criminal Court against its own people - made millions refugees in their own country; tortured, sold and killed human beings agaisnt any laws of a civilized society has only strengthened their resolve. Could something be tried that has never been tried before - just for the sake of keeping your own head on top of your shoulders?

Re: # 202 Urstruly:

Iran paid a heavy price for its revolution when millions of young Iranians, many in early teens, were killed by the Iran-Iraq war orchestrated by the US and its Arab allies. So their revolution was not achieved cheaply.

Pakistan has to worry about a similar situation if there is a revolution there that brings to power an anti-US regime. Pakistan has several neighbors willing to be used by the Americans to invade it.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

I think we need to pay more attention to this mass farmer suicide in India (over 1500) due to poverty rather than the Indians here being overly concerned with the one or two suicide bombings here n there in Pakistan

http://www.greenmuze.com/climate/heat/1036-mass-farmer-suicide-in-in dia.html

Have a nice day,

TNITC masadi

by the way Urstruly has no clue about the difference between absolute and relative deprivation so even when he says that injustice provokes violence his quote below says exactly the opposite. This moron needs to get an education.

Urstruly from the mullah skool of sociology writes "If a poor person is sure that the powerful is not going to steal his morsel of bread; that he has a chance with the system despite many other bypassing him - he will not turn violent."

HE should know because those mullahs that have grown fat on monies supplied by America through its proxies are not poor, rather they feed on the poverty of the downtrodden and then channel their greivance which involves poverty pure and simple, absolute and not relative deprivation (injustice) that causes them to do what they do. The fat cats never take part in the suicide bombings and those that do do not do it motivated by Islam. If injustice was what provoked revolutions the mullah would have been history in all communities of Pakistan.

TNITC masadi

#199 Riazhuq

We are more or less in agreement. Education opportunities and software business (profession made by God specifically for desis that needs thinking but no manual labor) have bought off time for India. Decentralization after Indira/Rajiv's departure has provided outlet for lots of regional energy.

The question you are raising is if that will be enough. Who knows. You are right, there is grinding poverty for a huge number of slum dogs and time will tell whether trickle down economy and bottoms up education will help everyone in reasonable time.

Large and poor countries like India can not be nanny states to their citizens. Bihar, Bengal, MP and UP folks (BIMARU states) need to help themselves too. My Punjabi relatives, and Sindhis, migrated from Pakistan with nothing and have done very well by sheer hard work.

It's not a good idea to assume that westerns are ALWAYS right. Despite their good intentions (some will question that too) they are constant whiners. They divided nations on the basis of religion (Middle-east, India/Pak) and later they complain why these regions are communal. They created Jihadis against Soviets and now these folks are labeled fundos. They love dictators when needed and later those guys are accused of not being democratic. Chinese were accused of killing millions and not respecting human rights and now they are the heroes. India is admired for democracy but now they are not moving fast enough for western tastes.

I say decide what works for you and just move on. No one needs others' approval.

Tehsin writes "he shallowness of your knowledge is a perfect match to the crudity of your discourse. I have absolutely no desire to engage with you, it is only with great reluctance that I respond only because I need to defend my post.

You Wikipediaed taqwa and jumped on the first sentence of ‘higher consciousness’ without bothering even to get down to the second paragraph. Here is what it says:

“The origin of the word taqwá "carefulness, Godfearing-ness" is from the Arabic root WQY from the 8th form verb, ittaqá "be wary, Godfearing."


You moron, you know nothing about me. I do not need to Wiki Taqwa, I have written multiple books on the Quran. I know what the word means. IT has NOTHING to do with godfearing. The use of the term ittaq ullah, signifies that you have to JOIN the word Allah for it to mean be careful or conscious of Allah. That understanding is NOT contained within the word.

Now go climb a pole.

TNITC masadi

#202 Urstruly.. this has nothing whatsoever to do with socialist revolution.. more islamic devolution.. the mullahs dont want class equality .. they want to prove some truth to their bu||shit, which by any standard of sanity is absolutely and inevitably false...

Because they are incapable of existing in human society, they want to destroy it.. there can be no morality to this nonsense .. Kiyani 'must' burn them all or you can kiss Pakistan goodbye..

If every chowk interactor .. goes out today and kills one mullah each for a week .. will the situation get any better?

Pakistan is not Iran. There was no militancy in Iran, only popular uprising. People did not have guns at all. A friend of mine who was a student in Tehran university during the revolution told me that on one particular day, which is now comemorated as "black day" or something like this the students and people of Tehran brought out the biggest procession ever in the history of Iran. The military generals sent by Shah came with APCs, Tanks, and Machinegun to thwart the protest. The shoot to kill orders resulted in the death of 6000+ protestors. Even then there were no bombing, no gun battles, and no suicide attacks.

On the other hand the situtaion in Pakistan resembles the one that in Czarist Russia. There are pitched battles in civil war and sedition is trying to bring down the government enforcement machinery just like that in Russia. They know very well that they cannot touch the ruling elite, because they are hiding behind invincible security circles - but who is securing the security circle? They are playing their cards very well. A time is actually going to come when security circle will change their loyalties to protect themselves and their families, just like in Russia. An ordinary citizen in paksitan is reluctant to take sides. However, everytime an explosion or suicide bombing hits they ask "Yeh taliban inn Haramiyon (referring to ruling elite) ko kiyon nahin martay, inn gharreebon ko(referring to security officials) ko kiyun marte hain jo apna aur apni biwi bachchoN ka pait paalne ke liyay sab kuch karne par majboor hain". Meaning that they have no love for rulers or the system.

The tipping point will come when these security officials will make up their mind that betraying those whom they are charged to protect will not be considered betrayal by the masses. When that time came in Russia, the Proletariats were walking into Czars palace without any resistence.

Re: # 200 Urstruly: "Had it had anything to do with poverty, India and Bangladesh would have been the hell on Earth; the biggest bastions of suicide bombings."

Tactics do not account for the fundamental issue of injustice. Different cultures/peoples fight in their own ways against oppressors. Suicide bombings did not start with Pakistanis or Muslims. These were invented by Sri Lankan Tamils as a terror weapon.

Ironically, there are some parallels here between the violent Maoists movement in India and the Taliban militants in Pakistan, in spite of their diametrically opposed ideologies. Maoists say they are fighting for the rights of neglected tribal people and landless farmers, as are the Taliban in FATA and NWFP. Both movements have killed dozens of people, including security personnel, in the last few weeks, though their methods vary. Both movements control wide swathes of territory in their respective countries.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 199

Poverty has nothing to do with sedition and uprising - injustice does. Had it had anything to do with poverty, India and Bangladesh would have been the hell on Earth; the biggest bastions of suicide bombings.

If a poor person is sure that the powerful is not going to steal his morsel of bread; that he has a chance with the system despite many other bypassing him - he will not turn violent.

The great justice that has been done to Muslims in Northern Ares is that their own government has betrayed them. Their own army which is supposed to protect them under its constitutional obligation has started killing their women and children and destroyed their villages after villages. Recently, I have seen a documentary by a BBC jouranilst which shows villages after villages left as nothing but rubble. It seems as if a tornado has hit those areas. Look at our ruling bunch; it kidnaps pakistani citizens against any law or constitutional gurantees and sells them to our sworn enemies wherte these animals subject them to inhuman torture in tortture cells around the globe. Ours is probably only government in the world which negotiates with foreigners the death of Pakistani citizens in return for monetary gains for themselves. Poverty No. Injustice and cruelty yes.

But their days are now numbered. All the m/fs who have wronged pakistan including fouji haramkhors are about to be dealt with like they have never been dealt before. It was easier to commit massacres and rapes of East Pakistanis and come back and declare yourself heroes - now where would you go - arabian sea? M/fs.

Re: # 194 Pardesi: "However, younger folks in India have, at least for a while, other options to uplift themselves - "

Yes, some do, but most don't. Hundreds of millions of Indians are trapped in deep poverty that continues generation after generation. Here's the reality of India today:

Douglas Alexander, the first British cabinet minister to visit India's poorest state Bihar, said that despite "real strides in economic growth" there were still 828 million people living on less than $2 a day in India.

The UK Department of International Development says if the UN's millennium development goals - alleviating extreme poverty, reducing child mortality rates and fighting epidemics such as Aids - are left unmet in India, they will not be met worldwide. Some 43% of children go hungry and a woman dies in childbirth every five minutes.

Alexander contrasted the rapid growth in China with India's economic success - highlighting government figures that showed the number of poor people had dropped in the one-party communist state by 70% since 1990 but had risen in the world's biggest democracy by 5%.

So clearly, democracy is not working for the vast majority of the poor in India...and many are turning to Maoists. Here are recent reports of Maoist violence in Indian elections:

RANCHI, India (AFP) — At least 16 people, including nine paramilitary troopers and five polling officials, were killed in eastern India Thursday in a wave of election day attacks by Maoist rebels, officials said.

In Jharkhand state, a hotbed of Maoist activity, the rebels ambushed a bus carrying security forces for duty at polling stations, killing seven soldiers and two civilians, police spokesman S.N. Pradhan told AFP.

In neighbouring Chattisgarh state, a Maoist unit blew up a jeep carrying election officials, killing five, police there said.

Several serious gunbattles were also reported to be raging in two Chattisgarh districts that are part of a densely forested and impoverished region serving as the main base of the left-wing rebels.

And in Bihar state, two security personnel were shot dead and another wounded by the rebels in Gaya district, the official Press Trust of India news agency reported.

Jharkhand, Bihar and Chattisgarh are among several parts of India voting Thursday in the first stage of a month-long general election.

Polling in areas hit by the Maoist insurgency has been staggered over several phases to ensure adequate deployment of security personnel.

India's Maoists say they are fighting for the rights of neglected tribal people and landless farmers.



Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 193

Thanks.

hamidm: What happened to your Plan A (grow a beard, administer pre-emptive beatings on missus to prevent vice and promote virtue, join the taleban)?

Re: # 192

The same news story said that the Taliban, as the new owners, are charging the tenant farmers a 33 per cent share of their harvest as rent for the land.

Re: # 190

hamidm2

There is another option, neutralize Pakistan army's role in Pakistani politics and give the elected representatives some real authority to declare war against these barbarians. As of right now, elected reps are show pieces, trophies to be used for passport privileges, social standing and an opportunity to be remembered.

If nothing works, then migration to Somalia is an option where piracy is flourishing.

#192 RiazHuq

You are right - huge improvement/revolution is needed in both countries.

However, younger folks in India have, at least for a while, other options to uplift themselves - education/careers and it's working for many folks. Who knows may be the bloody revolution may not be needed. Also, after "revolution" they will be focused on 21st century economy.

In case of Pakistan, there are no other options for the young. Elites have left no avenue for the unfortunates. Also the Jihadis will bring back Pakistan to you know which century.

Net net - no comparison in the situation.

karma is the female of the canine species..

dollars to donuts, today, iraq is safer than pakiland

Islamabad in frontline of Pakistan struggle with Islamic militants



Fortifications are springing up across Islamabad as foreigners retreat from public view and Pakistanis worry about the possibility of a Mumbai-style attack on shops, offices or even schoolchildren.

Twelve-metre (40ft) high sandbag walls, nests of gun-toting soldiers and concrete blast walls have started to appear around the once sleepy federal capital, where over the last year Taliban suicide bombers have attacked a five-star hotel, the Danish embassy and several army and police posts.

The most visible precautions have been taken at UN offices, most of which now resemble facilities in war zones. "In terms of security instability Pakistan has become as dangerous as Iraq and Afghanistan," said a senior UN official.

Last week a Taliban commander, Mullah Nazir Ahmed from South Waziristan, threatened to overrun the city. "The day is not far when Islamabad will be in the hands of the mujahideen," he told al-Qaida's media wing As-Sahab.

Few residents take that warning seriously, but there is a creeping sense of menace fed by the march of extremist forces in neighbouring North-West Frontier province. This week the government met Taliban demands to impose Sharia law in Swat, 100 miles north-west of Islamabad. On Thursday it released the firebrand cleric Abdul Aziz, who led the bloody Red Mosque siege two years ago, on orders from the supreme court.

Only four years ago Islamabad was considered one of the safest places in Pakistan, a small city of wide boulevards and low crime, if a muted social scene. Now it wears a tense face. Streets have been sealed, five-star hotels are fortified like army bases and a heavily protected area around parliament is known as the "red zone".

Convoys bristling with gunmen escort ministers to work, while western ambassadors travel in bullet-proof limousines. The government is urging foreign embassies to move into a diplomatic enclave that may soon resemble Baghdad's green zone.

A spring ball at the British high commission, due to take place tonight was cancelled yesterday over security concerns. Meanwhile hardware stores have found a lucrative new product line: blast film. "If a bomb goes off, it stops the glass from flying into your home," saleswoman Zahida Hashmi explained at the Ideal Home store.

But the most profound changes are being felt by Pakistanis, including the well-heeled, who are starting to feel their city has moved to the frontline of the war against militancy. Last weekend most English language schools in the city closed, some for several days, amid rumours of a commando-style gun attack on a school. One institution, which caters to foreigners, remains shut, with classes continuing by email.

School owners said they were installing closed circuit television and hiring armed guards, but admitted the precautions were insufficient to stop a suicide bomber. "Privilege won't buy you security any more," said one. "We are wondering how we can stay here if your kids are not safe."

For others, the closure of a main road outside the anonymous-looking headquarters of the Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) this week was a measure of the seriousness of the threat.

It is also hitting business. At Sufi restaurant, a popular kebab joint opposite a police building, sales are down 40%, said waiter Muhammad Asfandyar. "People are afraid to come out these days," he said, indicating a row of empty tables.

Some flag their resistance through culture. At the height of last weekend's scare, theatregoers flocked to see a play about Bulleh Shah, an 18th century Sufi mystic who defied the mullahs with a message of love and tolerance.

The play sold out, said director Madeeha Gauhar. "Unfortunately a minority seems to be winning this war of ideas through coercion. But this sends a strong message that people want to live, to be entertained, and to watch a play."

Re: # 190

It seems to me that a Maoist-style bloody revolution is underway in both India and Pakistan...except that it is lead by the Islamist Taliban in Pakistan, rather than Communists.

While there has been widespread condemnation of the Taliban imposing Shariah Law and justifiable outcry against the flogging of a teenage girl in Swat by the Western and Pakistani media, there's been a very little reported about the Taliban's popular war on the landed elite in Swat. The emerging accounts from Pakistanis who have fled Swat now make clear that the Taliban seized control by pushing out about four dozen landlords who held the most power in the former princely state. It also explains why the soldiers and policemen refused to fight on behalf of the landlord politicians against the Taliban who are supported by their oppressed brethren.

Given the underlying and growing resentment against the feudal/tribal power of a narrow and corrupt ruling elite in Pakistan, it is almost certain that Swat represents only the beginning of a bloody revolt in the rest of the country.

http://www.riazhaq.com/2009/04/taliban-target-pakistans-landed-elite .html

Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

tahmed,

..... look, i have been a moslem all my life and i have no idea which islam you are talking about .......... as far as i know, the taleban are right and that is why nobody in islamabad, except SR and my sister - who has a death wish - is disagreeing with them .......... until you are accepted as a prophet, i am afraid we are stuck with mo's islam ...... if you ever talk to a winged creature in a dark cave, i will be you your first disciple ....... all i want in return is that you appoint me as your successor instead of handing over the throne to your father-in-law .............

... let me throw another idea out there .... if nothing works and the taliban get close to taking over, i would consider reuniting with india and let the hindoo majority ndeal with the problem ............ trust me guys, as much as i hate the smell of heeng it really really hurts me to say this ..... i would rather waterboard myself than endure a horrible hindoo, but the taleban are far worse ..... these are desperate times and i just might consider giving up on kashmir and instead hand over all of kashmir to our hindoo cousins .... maybe they can send some madrasis in dhotis to fight the taleban in waziristan! ..... chuckle!!!

akhand bharat zindabad!

kiyani, save us!


.... it is a beautiful day and i have no intention of wasting it on chowk trying to save pakistan after a hard week of trying to save capitalism ...... but i have the ONLY solution .......

...... we need to start by hanging the droopy eyed judge (remember i was the only person on chowk who opposed the silly long march and the unemplyable lawyers) and the murderer he has just released from jail - maulana abdul aziz ...... then we need to round up all those chicks who were let go from lal masjid and behead them ...... their children should be handed over to the sisters at the convent of jesus and mary to be raised as good christians ........

......we need to put an end to this nonsensical experiment with democracy because, as i have said many times before, it does not suit our mizaj ......we need a strongman in the tradion of mo of mecca, saddam hussain, oman ibn khattab, kamal attaturk and hosni mubarak ...........


...... hosni kiyani zindabad !

so under abdul aziz, gen zia's last wishes are coming true "for pakistan to be a fortress of islam". All the best and i hope all indian muslims que up to enter this fortress. three cheers once again for abdul aziz, the saviour of pakistan

and do remember that according to abul aziz and others, cricket is not an islamic game, so all paki cricketers should be the first to immigrate

hand over the entire pakistan to abdul aziz, what is the need for another partion ?

abdul aziz for prime ministership, hip-hip hurray

Re: # 182

Thanks.

so let me get this straight...according to prophetboy, the taliban takeover is because liberals didn't go on paki talk shows and make their case...the sustained effort by the paki state to indoctrinate it's own population has nothing to do with it...

mmmmkay...

#181 freehussaini: I think what Ayesha Siddiqa is saying is that Pakistanis have made the mistake of handing over the intellectual space with respect to what is Islam to the maulvi. Thus - who is the maulvi to declare mqm or any other Pakistani who opposes their criminal attack on Pakistan as being non-muslim?? This, btw, is what I have been ranting about for years on chowk - i.e. Pakistanis should use their own heads, not leave it to the maulvi to tell them what Islam stands for.

Re: # 176


"This is not to argue that Pakistan cannot survive without foreign aid. The poor are far more resilient than the ruling elite who, in any case, do not allow foreign aid to effectively find its way to the grass roots. So, one wonders what will this elite do once the foreign money disappears?

Last but not least, one must also mention a liberal political party that enters into deals with the Taliban. Given these conditions, the liberal elite might be better off packing their bags."

The writer is an independent strategic and political analyst.
ayesha.ibd@gmail.com

Is the lady advising the middle class to start fleeing?

hangu blast

#178 Posted by CreateAlpha on April 18, 2009 6:11:12 am

in fact, prophetboy supported droopy...droopy released maulana burkha and now maulana burkha is back preaching in the red mosque...

The only paki who didn't support this long march shyte, which destabilized the gov't, got a taliban loving CJ back (aziz release) and disrupted civilian momentum was HamidM....rest of you are jokers!

PESHAWAR: A suicide attacker detonated a car bomb at a checkpoint in the northwestern Pakistani town of Hangu’s Doaba area Saturday, killing 15 people, including five security personnel, DSP Hangu Fareed Khan and other officials told DawnNews.

LAHORE: The arrival of Maulana Aziz after release on bail coincides with the appearance of militant motivational literature and propaganda videos in front of Lal Masjid, according to DawnNews.

So those who are saying I am not Pakistani,what they think about two news items above????is it ok????Do you know where it taking Pakistan????Thats what JINNAH,ALLAM IQBAL AND SIR SYED AHMED KHAN WANTED for Pakistan????hey mentioning SIR SYED AHMED KHAN reminds me that he was called KAFFIR because he advised Indian Muslims to gain education and learn English.Leaders like SIR SYED are the real heros of Pakistan not Taliban and those who are living on ALQUIDA pay roll.

#175 Khyber: there was an excellent article by Ayesha Siddiqa (who had last year written the very successful book exposing the extension of the military into the economy) in Dawn yesterday. She points to the root of the problem when she says that "There is hardly any willingness to question and challenge the intellectual space which the extremists have taken over. The liberals are not willing to question the religious arguments presented by the other side."

Thus, these animals declare that whipping and executing females for supposedly "moral crimes" is "Islam", bombings of innocent people is "Islam", and no one challenges them. Mullah Veil is now the spokesman for Islam - when in fact he is nothing but the inheritor of a masjid from his lota father - an uneducated jahil man who put on a beard and mouthed what the Islamabad Commissioner told him to preach on friday (a "government maulvi").

Hey according to terror czar of Swat valley leaders of MQM are not Muslims anymore because they were against the deal made by cowards of ANP in NWFP , so anyone who is in love with TALIBAN, CAN call me INDIAN or whatever,i am not gonna loose sleep over that but facts are facts that TALIBAN and mullah of lal masjid are destroying Pakistan.

http://www.longwarjournal.org/archives/2009/04/taliban_moving_on_ma.php

Talib an moving on Mardan
By Bill RoggioApril 17, 2009 1:46 AM


The Taliban continue their advance in northwestern Pakistan. The district of Mardan in the Northwest Frontier Province may be the next region to fall to the Taliban as the terror group has stepped up its attacks in the area.

The Taliban murdered two women in Mardan yesterday, signaling the district is marked for takeover. A female aid worker for the non-governmental organization National Rural Support Program was killed in a bombing at her office. A local Taliban commander named Habibur Rehman claimed credit for the attack. "He accused NGOs of propagating obscenity and vulgarity and threatened further attacks," Dawn reported. The Taliban also gunned down a female councilor for a local union.

The murders were the latest in a series of attacks in Mardan that signal the Taliban is setting its sights on the district.

Since early March, in Mardan the Taliban have bombed two girls' schools, dozens of CD and video shops, and an electrical tower. The Taliban have forced the closure of more than a hundred CD shops after issuing threatening night letters and ordered barbers to stop shaving men's beards. The Taliban conducts attacks like these to intimidate the local population while setting the precedent for the establishment and enforcement of its brutal version of sharia, or Islamic law.

Attacks such as these preceded the Taliban takeover of Tank, Bannu, Hangu, Lakki Marwat, Swat, Shangla, Arakzai, and Bajaur.

Mardan was also one of the districts chosen by the Swat Taliban to parade through after its near-effortless takeover of Buner, a district just 60 miles from the capital of Islamabad. Earlier this week, a Taliban convoy of 10 trucks filled with fighters brandishing heavy weapons drove from Buner, through the district center in Swabi, and through Mardan before passing into Malakand, Dawn reported.

The Taliban convoy was untouched by Pakistani security forces. "They drove through a district HQ of a district they have not yet occupied ... on the federally policed motorway; through an army cantonment – as a matter of fact right past the Punjab Regimental Centre’s shopping plaza containing the usual bakery and pastry-shop run by serving soldiers – and thence through the rest of the crowded city of Mardan which is also the home of the chief minister of the province," Dawn reported.

Taliban nearing encirclement of Peshawar

The takeover of Mardan would put the Taliban one step closer to completing an encirclement of Peshawar, the provincial capital of the Northwest Frontier Province.

The Taliban have taken control of vast swaths of tribal agencies Arakzai, Khyber, and Mohmand, and maintain a strong presence in Charsadda and neighboring Mardan.

Charsadda is still contested, but the Taliban have launched some of the largest suicide strikes in this district in an effort to break the security forces. In the latest suicide attack on April 15, nine policemen were among 18 Pakistanis killed in a suicide attack on a police checkpoint.

The district of Nowshera to the east of Peshawar has been spared some of the heavier violence that has plagued the Northwest Frontier Province, but the Taliban are showing signs of advancing there as well. Over the past month, the Taliban assaulted two police checkpoints and bombed 20 CD shops.

Peshawar itself is under Taliban siege. The city has been described as a fortress as the Taliban maraud through the countryside. The Taliban have conducted dozens of assaults on trucking terminals that handle supplies for NATO forces in Afghanistan. Since late 2008, the Taliban have destroyed more than 500 trucks and containers destined for Kabul in an effort to strangle NATO's primary supply route.

The military has launched multiple offensives to clear the Taliban from Peshawar, Khyber, Arakazai, Mohmand, and Charsadda. The Taliban typically lay low during the operations and return after the government calls them off and withdraws troops.

The Taliban are nearing their takeover of the Northwest Frontier Province. The Pakistani government recently ceded the northern third of the province to the Taliban after agreeing to implement sharia in a large region known as the Malakand Division. The seven western tribal agencies and most of the bordering districts are under Taliban control or under strong Taliban influence.

The wheels will come off the deal bus in 6 months....

or..like househusband paki would say, "Hahaha...the deal will fail"..

#123 Posted by masadi on April 17, 2009 6:43:24 pm

retard...and that proves what?

Well,interesting,first I did not say anything aginst ISLAM OR PAKISTAN,what I was trying to say that some people who are supporting Taliban and blaming U.S.A. for everything are living in denial,are dumb,deaf and blind,TAHMED32 posts make more sense and I am on same page with him,the reason we are facing religious fanaticism in Pakistan which is spreading like cancer from KHYBER TO KARACHI is because of PAKISTANI ELITE who kept this nation illiterate,in this country(PAK) more then 40 million people cant read or write,where in 21st century people can't have clean drinking water,where people face load shedding for hours and so many other problems,ISLAM was misused by mullahs and elite,Pak leaders take begging bowel around the globe and then steal all that money,some people who are living in denial can say everything but face the fact and reality that TALIBAN are converting Pakistan in to SOMALIA,Thats what you want???I am Pakistani,where I was born and I am proud of it,but people like me OR TAHMED32 understands the grave situation and are not living in denial.You can't blame WEST and USA for everything,for your short comings and failures,Taliban were involved in crimes against humanity before drone attacks,and Pak army is unable or not willing to crush those thugs thats why you have drone attacks.

Re: # 116

Hasho

Islamists who supported Zia came from all four provinces and the Federally administered territories, Deobandi's were the biggest supporters followed by Barelvi's. Point being, religious groups have always supported any person or group of people so long their ultimate goals are being satisfied, they do not make distinctions of Punjabi and mohajirs.

Establishment has always found the religious lobby an eager ally and that symbiotic relationship continues til this day when military refuses to confront and defeat their strategic allies in Swat and its adjoining areas. I think we both are saying the same thing but the difference is in our approach towards the militants in Swat. Where you are advocating realpolitik I on the other hand argue for direct action.

As for the Pathan origins of this movement and distinct cultural characteristics, well that argument misses the bigger picture where the control and command structure in the form of Madaris spread across the country has no ethnic or cultural colors, it may show tribal values thats because the Islamic version espoused by this group aspires for an idealism of fifteen hundred years ago i.e., Islam as of the Prophets era. Yes, there is an element of protecting and promoting their tribal instincts but its main strength comes from the religious edicts.

Islamists of this form cannot be allowed legitimacy, we have repeatedly committed the same mistake with devastating results.

Its truely pathetic.

To boil it all down .... we've just handed our home over to the americans and the jews becuase we couldnt kill a few scummy little bearded traitors and thought democracy works because they broadcast reruns of friends and the OC for a few years.

Re: # 162

Urstruly

Thanks for the reply and I concur with your viewpoint.

The Negor Bush of Ameika has endorsed the policy of torture and absuction started by his predecessor the White Bush. He has given immunity to all torture cell operatives from prosecution.

Hello! I am looking for those obama-for-change characters here... the silence is defeaning... anybody??

Hussaini: "Monday, April 13, 2009, is a black day in the history of Pakistan. What makes it worse is that the people of Pakistan do not appear to know it."

Or, maybe, it is not such a black day. Maybe, the people of Pakistan know more than you think they do. The emerging accounts from Pakistanis who have fled Swat now make clear that the Taliban seized control by pushing out about four dozen landlords who held the most power in the former princely state. It also explains why the soldiers and policemen refused to fight on behalf of the landlord politicians against the Taliban who are supported by their oppressed brethren.

This could be beginning of a revolution to destroy the oppressive feudal/tribal corrupt elite in Pakistan. It will be unfortunate, however, if the repression of the people by the feudal/tribal elite is simply replaced by their religious persecution by the narrow-minded and intolerant Taliban in Pakistan. I just hope it's not too late to change the course of events in Pakistan.

Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 157 Anygood good words for MQM chief ?

Re: # 107 SR

You are too intelligent to lower yourself down to ad hominem, please fight the temptation.

Re: # 88 rf786

I have no problem being led by a kafir if he is just, honest, and law abiding. This is the sunnah of our Prophet (pbuh) as well.

On the other hand I will oppose a Muslim leader everywhere if he is unjust, dishonest, and lawless. Many people think that Islami nizam means being stonned to death and being flogged in city centers. That is absolutely a false assumption. (By the way I don't give a damn if someone assumes that). Islami Nizam means, establishing a society, based on fear of God. Such a society cannot be established with guns or force but only with training and dawah. If one understands the Hadith of Prophet (pbuh), he says every human being is born a Muslim and given a chance overwhelming number of human beings will try to do the right thing. Pakistan came into existence because Muslims in subcontinent rightfully thought that a safe haven like paksitan will become the nursery where a God fearing society could live and prosper. Unfortunately, Pakistan was hijacked by the British empire ki najaiz aulad who corrupted every fibre of this society. Today, a time is upon us that people laugh at an honest person and consider him stupid. Unfortunately, this cannot change without the help of gun. Our Medina, our Pakistan needs to be protected at all costs - with our blood, our wealth, and everything that we hold dear.

Tahmed,

Good point. What you express are also opinions and people may agree or disagree with them. So there is no need to be upset with asadi or anyone else. They may not like your opinions and you have a right to reject their opinion.

Asadi is an angry young man with some opinions. why would you want him to conform to your opinions?

HP: I have to go now. If you have any love for Pakistan or fellow Pakistanis already killed or already under the guns of the invaders, I suggest you think again and realize what is happening there.

Good night.

#118 Posted by masadi

The shallowness of your knowledge is a perfect match to the crudity of your discourse. I have absolutely no desire to engage with you, it is only with great reluctance that I respond only because I need to defend my post.

You Wikipediaed taqwa and jumped on the first sentence of ‘higher consciousness’ without bothering even to get down to the second paragraph. Here is what it says:

“The origin of the word taqwá "carefulness, Godfearing-ness" is from the Arabic root WQY from the 8th form verb, ittaqá "be wary, Godfearing." The traditional understanding is negative: "to stay away from everything forbidden and do all things that are ordered by God." Alternative definitions are sometimes quite positive, such as: "to pursue the Path of God with single-minded, energetic devotion."[citation needed] Literally it means to protect yourself from diverging from the path of God. The Qur'Ä?n says,
be on your guard against the fire of which men and stones are the fuel; it is prepared for the unbelievers.[Qur'an 2:24]�

For me “God fearing-ness� translates into “khauf e khudavandi�.

Hasho: So you want to make Khyber's nationality the issue, not the invasion of Pakistan he is trying to draw attention to?

Hasho: OK fine. That still does not change the fact that anyone who claims that the Taliban are US agents has to be a comedian who has no concern for the serious problems facing Pakistan, no concern for the thousands of Pakistani already killed by the invaders.

Hasho: what does this Pepe Escobar know about internal matters of Pakistan that you and I dont? and how is what he says anything more than mouthing an opinion?? one can pull any kind of opinion from the internet to support one's notions.

Tahmed,

Asadi is gainfully employed and I know his place of employment too.

tahmed,
Let Khyber deny it and tell us where in Pakistan is he from. Why are you fighting for him?

masadi the unemployed moron: looks like your unemployed ass is going to be bumped off chowk for a week as well, thanks to the red flags I put there.

Now red flag this post as well - unlike you, I have better things to do than waste time with fools like anyway. So, while you dread getting banned from chowk, I have no problem with it.

Tahmed, You should read this article insgtead of listening to the Pak tv.
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/KD17Df03.html

"Islamabad controls most of Pakistan - Sindh and Punjab provinces - with an iron fist. Pakistani police and army control most of NWFP. In "separatist" Balochistan there's only 5% of the total population. For Washington to believe that a small, rural, Pashtun tribal agglomeration of bands of a maximum of 30 fighters, with no air force, no heavy artillery and no tanks, could take over a Pakistan with a 650,000-strong well-trained army is an absolutely ridiculous notion. And for Washington to believe - as Holbrooke implied - that a few Pashtun tribals and a few expat jihadis can take on Western civilization as a whole is also an absolutely ridiculous notion.

As for the Pakistan military, whenever they see the activities of the Balochistan Liberation Front or a road being built from Nimruz province in Afghanistan to the Iranian port of Chabahar, they see the hand of New Delhi. Hardcore paranoia as it may be, even senior Pakistan army officers believe in a concerted US-India plot to destabilize FATA and the country as a whole and then confiscate Pakistan's nuclear weapons. Obama's war on Pashtuns will only exacerbate this already volatile mix."

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#145 HP: there is nothing in the evidence you provided to indicate that Khyber is an indian. So please dont keep repeating it, since repeating a bogus claim does not magically convert it to a fact.

#143: bringing a lawless area where every maulvi's sharia becomes the law of the land upon whim is better served by standardizing the sharia so that not only atrocities in its name can be monitored, it can be periodically amended based upon popular demand. Further this takes away the fakely constructed grievance of the Taliban (US supported) who want to use this excuse to keep the area engulfed in war. Let us first ensure that those people live that are being killed before we start debating what laws they should live under....This was a very wise decision by the government for the sake of peace, my recommendation to them was for talking and making peace rather than using the thuggish Pakistan Army, and I sent the NA a report on the farcical US GWOT...

TNITC masadi

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HP: an invasion is not stopped by legal agreements. And agreements signed under duress are not worth the paper they are written on - even from a legal standpoint!!

anyway..we could go on an on on this all night.

pakistanis are acting like a herd of zebra - where the rest of the herd is not bothered if the hyenas get one of them. pakistanis will pay a heavy price for the betrayal of the swati people. just remember my words.

Masadi,
Khyber is showing typical Indian knowledge of the US.

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I agree to the extent that agreeing to the sharia laws or whatever laws was wrong but that is my opinion. Local Swati don't seem to agree with me.

Swat has not been handed over to the Taliban. The sufis are local people. Have you even read the agreement?

Khyber writes ".IF THERE WAS A RAPE CASE IN U.S.A. THEN THAT WILL BE HANDLED WITH BY THE LAW AND THERE ARE STRICT LAWS "

Khyber mian, don't teach U.S. law and crime to someone who has been teaching criminology. Rape and domestic violence is the least prosecuted and reported of among all crimes in the U.S. There is a rape culture in the U.S. and where the woman if she is brave enough to report it is often blamed for it. You need to get a goddamned education.

TNITC masadi

HP #138 what does the fact that you have relatives sitting in peshawar have to do with the handing over of swat to the taliban?

HP #137 Why cant we have the army fighting in swat? its the army's job to defend the nation. no one is pakistan is asking this question. they are happy to give the military a pass.

yesterday the air force chief was proclaiming how the air force was ready to defend the nation! that is like the husband hiding under a bed proclaiming he is ready to defend his wife's honor, even as she is being raped and killed. this nation has lost its nerve when it comes to fighting clowns wearing a beard.

#136 Posted by tahmed32

I am in deep denial abt what? I think you are reading too many papers and listening to too many tv shows.
I never heard of any Taliban marching on GT road or the new shining highway between Isloo and Peshawar. All the people I know are still in Peshawar and none of them is taliban.

We don't know who killed Benazir.

Most of the taliban have not crossed the borders in to Pakistan from FATA. It is the Pakistan army going there to fight with them. Which is fine with me and I want more army to go there. But we can't have army fighting in Swat.

HP: You are in deep denial. And you are not even sitting on the route from Swat to Islamabad - where the vaunted "martial race" is frozen still like deer caught in car headlights, and reduced to blabbering about "drone hamlay" and "amreeka this" and "amreeka that". For crying out loud!!

HP #133 Why is the nationality of the taliban even important?? They may be all direct descendants of Jinnah from the mothers side and the Prophet from the fathers side, and it still wouldnt matter - these bastards are attacking Pakistan. Or havent you noticed that benazir and tens of thousands of Pakistanis have been killed by them or have laid down their lives fighting these bastards??

" (hamidm says he plans to grow a beard and administer pre-emptive floggings to the missus just to guarantee virtue)."

Sorry. In the end it will be Hamidm fighting the taliban in Pakistan, not you. Pakistan needs peace to fight the taliban in FATA.

I think Tahmed you are being ridiculous at this point. Who is attacking Pakistan? We hear Drones attacking Pakistan.
Taliban are in the tribal areas and the people in swat are Pakistanis, you may call them misguided or whatever but they are not attacking Pakistan.

There is no Swati involved in suicide bombing in Pakistan. I have no problem if the Pak army goes to FATA and fights with them.

in #131 i made the last part (pre-emptive floggings) up. but hamidm does seem to have lost his nerve as well - just like the rest of the nation blabbering about "drone hamlay" as if that is what is driving the taliban to attack pakistan!!!

HP #129 what has happened to you? have you lost your nerve and like hamidm are taking the "if you cant fight them, join them" route? (hamidm says he plans to grow a beard and administer pre-emptive floggings to the missus just to guarantee virtue).

#127 HP: By what leap of faith does that line translate into Khyber being an Indian?? The same leap that causes you to support those invading Pakistan??

Another one:
YOU AND TALIBAN ARE PROVING TO THE WORLD THAT ISLAM WAS SPREAD BY SITTING ON THE BACK OF CAMEL WITH THE HELP OF SWORD...........

Khyber: Last 12 months there have been an average of 4-5 terrorist attacks PER DAY in pakistan, per figures given today. If this isnt an all invasion of the nation, I dont know what is. In wartime, you shoot anyone giving aid and comfort to the nation. Seems like 90 per cent of the "educated" Pakistanis - who are busy diverting attention from the taliban - would be shot as traitors if this practice was applied in Pakistan today.

I guess Tahmed you are not reading his posts. The stupid guy is an Indian.
The reveal all line.
"AGAIN ANOTHER TYPICAL PAKI...WHO WANTS TO BLAME OTHERS.."

HP: Is this the latest taliban line that you are promoting? That anyone opposing them is not just not a muslim but not a paki as well?

I am glad Khyber you admitted that you are not a paki.

Re: # 123...NO..U R THE ONE WHO NEEDS TO GET EDUCATION...AGAIN ANOTHER TYPICAL PAKI...WHO WANTS TO BLAME OTHERS...IF THERE WAS A RAPE CASE IN U.S.A. THEN THAT WILL BE HANDLED WITH BY THE LAW AND THERE ARE STRICT LAWS ABOUT THOSE KIND OF CASES,,,,WHAT TALIBAN ARE DOING IS SPREADING SAUDI WAHABI VERSION OF ISLAM IN PAKISTAN,TODAY THEY ARE IN NWFP AND VERY SOON THEY WILL BE IN PUNJAB AS THIS TERROR MULLHA OF SO CALLED TERROR CENTER LAL MASJID IS RELEASED,THESE MULLAHS WAIT FOR 60 VIRGINS ALL THEIR LIFE AND MOLEST LITTLE BOYS IN MOSQUES AND THEN THEY TALK ABOUT ISLAMIC LAWS,IF THAT IS ISLAM TO KILL PEOPLE,FLOGG GIRLS,BAN GIRLS EDUCATION THEN I AM NOT INTO FOLLOWING THAT RELIGION CALLED ISLAM,..MASADI YOU AND TALIBAN ARE PROVING TO THE WORLD THAT ISLAM WAS SPREAD BY SITTING ON THE BACK OF CAMEL WITH THE HELP OF SWORD...........

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LAHORE: The arrival of Maulana Aziz after release on bail coincides with the appearance of militant motivational literature and propaganda videos in front of Lal Masjid, according to DawnNews.

KOHAT: Local Taliban executed a man and a woman on charges of having illicit relations in Hangu district near the border of Orakzai Agency a few days back.

The footage, made available to Dawn on Friday, shows the Taliban shooting the man aged around 40 and a woman, about 45 years, at an open space in the presence of their relatives.

The woman is heard appealing to the Taliban, ‘Have mercy on me, please have mercy; the charges against me are false and no man has ever touched her’.

The Taliban first shoot the woman by firing two bullets in her chest and later open a burst of Kalashnikov fire at both the woman and the man. But the woman is still seen breathing, and the Taliban start yelling that she is alive and issuing orders to ‘kill her, kill her’.

Sources said that the Taliban had asked the relatives of the woman and the man to present the two before them for questioning at a specified place. The relatives brought both of them to the Taliban, who killed them in cold blood.


WELCOME TO TALIBANISTAN OF PAKISTAN.........SEEMS LIKE THERE IS NO LAW,POLICE,ARMY OR THEY ARE NOT WILLING TO TAKE ACTION..........GOOD BYE JINNAH'S PAKISTAN.

and facilitating injustice....

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Moron writes "Freedom being a state of mind, is a western and if I dare say also, an Indian philosophical concept. There is no such virtue in the Islamic lexicon."

For your kind information, don't try to teach Islam to Muslims. Taqwa does not translate into khauf e khuda, it translates into consciousness, and consciousness of your environment and surroundings is a necessary precursor to any freedom. An enslaved person can think that he is "free" but that state of mind only perpetuates tyranny because it's false consciousness. And for your further kind information, Umar is no inventor of Islam or its exemplar. The Quran is the first and last word on what constitutes an Islamic lexicon.

Have a nice day and get a goddamned education,

TNITC masadi

Hasho "On their own, they are insignificant"

Wise words!

Crackpot realism of the U.S. elite:
Imaginary threats to expand the war on terrorism:

http://www.adn.com/uspolitics/story/762223.html


"These men (of the Power Elite) have replaced mind with
platitude, and the dogmas by which they are legitimated are so widely accepted that no counter-balance of mind prevails against them. Such men as these are crackpot-realists; in the name of realism they have constructed a paranoid reality all their own…They have replaced the responsible interpretation of events with the disguise of events by a maze of public relations…�

(C. Wright Mills, The Power Elite, 1956:356)

#89 Posted by rf786

1) Creates ethnic differences by targeting Pukhtoons. Already the Sher-e-Punjab Shahbaz Sharif is talking of fencing Punjab borders.

2) Ignores the real threat ie the Islamic zealots waiting for the signal in rest of the country, in particular southern Punjab.�

When was the last time Pakistan did not have Islamist? The Punjabi and Mohajir Islamist supported Zia and were in power for almost ten years and of course we are paying the price for what they did to help a dictator. Right now they are vocally supporting the Taliban but can they duplicate what the Taliban have done in Afghanistan, NWFP and FATA?

Islamic zealots are a threat to the civil rule and democracy but they are not in any position to take over Pakistan w/o the army’s help like they did in the 70s. They might still have pockets of influence in the army. On their own, they are insignificant.

South Punjab may have some militants or extremist but there is no evidence anywhere they control south Punjab. Bahwalpur is not whole South Punjab and few hundred students from some mad-rassa in South Punjab have no way of influencing politics in Punjab, what to talk of Pakistan.

There is nothing wrong in mentioning the clear ethnic origination of the Taliban movement. Pathans are in front, back, right, and left of that movement. Even in Afghanistan the Taliban mostly have control over the Pathan areas. They hardly have Hazara, or the Tajik in the Taliban movement. It is a Pathan movement and their ethnicity, social and cultural leanings are the motivating forces behind the Taliban movement.

“What pride bhai? How can a nation that capitulates whenever faced with opposition have any pride, no sir, as they say in urdu Chiloo bhur panee mein sharam sey marjana chaheya..then again that would be difficult cause we have no shame. “

I usually avoid this kind of language in a political discussion. This only shows your own frustration because you cannot figure out what is going on and what needs to be done to get out of the situation. There is no Sharam ka muqam in dealing with a situation and the people of Pakistan are abt the same as the other people in the world are. Common folks respond to their instincts and mostly common Pakistanis have better instincts than the middle class that is still stuck in some dream world.

Pakistan is not Europe or the US. It is still a country that is very much in tune with its tribal and feudal past. It has made some progress but the tribal and feudal mindset just does not go away in days. In other words, Pakistan by and large is a conservative society.

That certainly is a disadvantage when dealing with the difficult issues like the Taliban or the influence of religion in certain areas.

As 111 mentioned, I certainly oppose the accord with the Islamists in Swat but the reality is that the Islamists hold all the cards in that area and politicians had to make a decision based on the options they had. Like Asfandyar, I would like to see peace return to that area even temporarily as the there is no permanency in the current situation. It is fluid and it will change. But the time the politicians are getting is crucial to concentrate on other areas such as Baluchistan where problems are multiplying because everyone was busy dealing with a few crazies in Swat. The mullah in Swat has no capability to take over Pakistan. They will barely maintain control over Swat and malakand but Baluchistan is slowly becoming a lost cause. The moderate, non religious Balochi whose legitimate grievances go back almost 50 yrs need some serious attention.

I am sorry for the long post but I think, as I said before, the Islamists court system in Swat does not mean koi Asmaan toot parra hai. The system was there before the 90s.

Like all politicians, soon mullah would be involved in local issues and some of them would start making money like many other politicians do.

If he's still in michigan, it's time for someone to contact the FBI about an S. Mohammed in Michigan plotting jihad against the US...

My gut feeling is that he's in soviet canuckistan, not in the US...I'm sure the RCMP intel unit will be interested...

SR,
Yow! You have certainly earned that soapbox. Kudos to your hard work and patriotism.

BTW, what's this I'm hearing?!
That mullah is still in Michigan?!; even though he proclaimed he left the US long time ago ?!(didn't know where he went tho)

Even my pagan idolatrous religion says lying is a sin...what the heck credibility does that Islam ka mashoor phelewan have?!

He better clear this up!

MPs who opposed Nizam-e-Adl are no longer Muslims: Sufi
DAILY TIMES . COM

MINGORA: The parliamentarians who opposed the promulgation of Nizam-e-Adl Regulation in the National Assembly are no longer Muslims, Tehreek Nifaz-e-Shariat-e-Muhammadi (TNSM) chief Sufi Muhammad said on Friday.

uh-oh...prophetboy's narrative of the paki state boldly fighting against the jihadis meets reality...



little over a month ago, a convoy of vehicles, full of Taliban fighters openly sporting heavy weaponry, drove down from the Buner valley all the way through Swabi district. For those of my readers who may not be familiar with the region, Swabi district abuts Tarbala Dam on the east (yes, Tarbela Dam!) and comes down to the M-1 Motorway at Jahangira. It is a district where tobacco and food grains are grown by some of the hardest working farmers in the country, and where there are cigarette factories and a substantial cottage industry.

Probably passing one of the ancient pillars carrying the edicts of Emperor Asoka, which stands near the road, this deadly convoy moved on to the district of Mardan. This district is the primary agricultural and industrial hub of the NWFP. Here, they grow sugar cane, tobacco, cotton, wheat and food grains. It is one of the centres of the nation’s sugar and tobacco industries.

To get here from Swabi, the Taliban convoy crossed the river at Hoti Bridge (no marks for guessing which famous family has its seat here!) and then drove into the city of Mardan itself — the second largest city of the province. A very few miles to the west is Charsadda and Wali Bagh, the home village of the great freedom fighter Abdul Ghaffar Khan (whose noble soul must be shuddering at the kind of ‘deals’ his grandson has been party to).

Immediately to the south is the Pakistan Air Force training academy at Risalpur. These are the kinds of heavily populated, and presumably well patrolled, areas through which the armed convoy drove — no isolated, mountainous badlands these — before heading north to Malakand and on to Swat.

Their particular mission was not clear, but the point is they were not challenged or queried at any point in their long drive. Neither the Army, nor the Rangers, nor the Police — indeed, not even traffic cops — had the temerity to ask these fearsome looking, heavily armed gents to pause and explain their intended business. I may mention that toting heavy weaponry around openly is illegal, anywhere in Pakistan, even in the NWFP.

Re: # 109 i think thats a interesting question,let me take sip of my beer and think......well next time I will send him a skirt and blond hair wig.

SR #107 why are you mad at me? something I said??

Khyber #104 religious question: if a woman is flogged for not wearing the veil, should a man (mullah veil) be flogged for wearing the veil?

#107 Posted by SR on April 17, 2009 3:03:01 pm

ok...now tell us how you really feel...

Re: # 81 Urstruly ["... people have voice and ... guns. ... forces of evil ... gathered around pakistan to enslave... freedom is a state of mind - not ... shackels and chains - its is ... mind. Azad Pakistan zindabad. ..."]

Aray Bhalay manas, which Pakistan are you talking about... My dear pretending-to-be a 'Frangi-kush' majahid, words come cheap... and I mean CHEAP like the goray sahib key salary for which you've sold your soul and have become a cowardly accomplice to the mass murder of Iraqi and Pakhtoon children by aiding and abetting the Predator drones and the Air Craft carrier groups in the Persian Gulf.

Haif, sud haif on you, my friend, for talking such tall talk ... If you talk the talk, then I dare you to walk the walk... You are the real beghairat and not that cartoon T32 or that baykaar shirabi Mohammad Hamid. Even Mad Masadi is better than you. At least he is not getting fat like a pig in the hog heaven of Michigan.

If you really want to put your money where your mouth is then come, even if only for three months, here in Rawalpindi district and I'll take you to the real front line where the real jihad is being fought, not with stupid guns -- God cure ALL guns and gun handlers -- but with disposable syringes, thermometers, sterile bandages and anti-septics. Come and clean the wounds, nurse the sick, heal the wounds of the ailing and the pain and discomfort of the elderly. In three months you will do more honest and rewarding work than you will have done 30 years, that much I can promise you. You will get no pay, as none of us does, there will be no air conditioned offices or chauffer driven cars, but there will be heat, sweat, stench, flies, mosquitos, dirt, dust, smoke, constant coughing, stiflingly over crowded dwellings where dozens of children huddle in the suffocating dark during hours of load shedding... No clean drinking water (don't worry, we carry ultra-fine ceramic filters, that can even filter out viruses), stale food and many, many more "comforts of home" to which the children of this cursed land have become accustomed.

You have no idea reality, my friend. Words are cheap... very cheap. And TRUTH? Well, the truth is nebulous. What you profess as truth is not truth... it is DOGMA. Three months like I have suggested, will cure you, I promise.

Come give it a try and then you will have earned the right to out-bullshit T32 and no one will blame you. Once you've been here, I tell you for sure, your blood will also boil when you hear CHEAP Talk about HORSE-SHIT ... Empty slogans... nonsense... rubbish... smelly MOUTH FARTS coming with dirrhea of the mouth and constipation of mind... it sounds so ridiculous when American resident self-appointed 'lover and patriots' of Phuckistan belch out foul odorous mouth farts that sound like 'freedom'.. 'democracy' .. 'people power' etc., while sitting on their expanding glutii and pecking away at their keyboard.

Oh boy... that was some good vodka. A much needed 'medicine' after a 12 hour trip to the tent colony near Kalar Syedan... I'll take you there if you actually decided to be a ghairatmund insaan and volunteer your time and energy for three months -- at your expense. We can use more volunteers. There is tons and tons and tons to do if someone has the time and resources. The needs are endless and the official organizations aren't doing shit. We are not working with any NGO nor have any haram funds. We are only volunteers. Just Shut up and Come join us... we don't even have a name. You'll be cured of your ideological blindness and we'll start sharing sherni ka dhood after a hard day in the ankle deep mud and muck.

Then, and only then, will I ask you about the meaning of 'zindabad Azad Pakistan'

... cheers mate...


...SR

Lal Masjid weapons stolen from police lockup
By Mohammad Asghar

ISLAMABAD: A large cache of arms, seized by security forces during the Lal Masjid operation were stolen under mysterious circumstances from the Aabpara police station's heavily guarded treasury (mallkhana), Dawn has learnt.


The advisor to prime minister on interior, Rehman Malik suspended the Senior Superintendent of Police (SSP) Ahmad Latif, and the Assistant Superintendent of Police (ASP) Aabpara Shahzad Asif.

He ordered the registration of a case against the Station House Officer (SHO) Inspector Naeem Iqbal, and fourteen other police officials on charges of criminal breach of trust, theft and burglary.

All the accused nominated in the FIR were suspended and arrested.

A large cache of arms, including AK 47’s, rocket launchers, anti-tank mines, grenades and a huge quantity of bullets had been seized by security forces during the Lal Masjid operation that ended on July 11, 2007.

All the arms were stored in the treasury (malkhana) of the Aabpara police station, being the ‘case property’, along with other goods which had been seized by police from other stations.

Surprisingly, nothing else including liquor bottles, jewellery, or other items were stolen, since all those goods were intact inside the lockup.

Re: # 95
That was a brilliant reply as it can get!!!!!!

Re: # 103...well if thats the reason then, LETS DRONE HIM.

Re: # 99

KHYBER

This is part of the propaganda war, establishment wants to send out a message to the Americans this is what they should expect if they were to continue with their drone attacks and pressure on Pakistan army.

Re: # 100

Thats called advertising, message of fear that is recognizable and leaves the user with an impression. Unfortunately for the Pak establishment, Burqa Maulana has been discredited, he has a very short shelf life and is most likely to be replaced very soon.

#97 Posted by banjara286

I don’t think hedonism has anything to do with it. Lets say it is my passion to pursue to be the greatest musician in the world and I go for it 24/7/365, am I being a hedonist? I don’t think so, but I did violate what the good book says. First of all, music in religion has a very confined role. Next by pursuing it single mindedly I didn’t perform my ritual duties which I am obligated to carry out. All these religious constraints and societal pressures would force me to be fearful and curb if not entirely abandon my desire. In other words passionate pursuit of excellence in any field of human endeavor would be impossible, except one i.e. Jihad.

Somehow the picture of the maulana on nytimes.com reminds me of the pictures of Khomeni's triumphant return to Iran.

Bailed cleric calls for Islamic order in Pakistan
ISLAMABAD (AFP) — The most radical mosque in Islamabad reverberated Friday with calls for jihad as a cleric released on bail asked thousands of people to make sacrifices to turn Pakistan into an Islamic order,"We will continue our struggle to enforce Islamic order in the country," said Aziz, delivering the main Friday sermon."Will you render sacrifices?" he cried to a unanimous response of "yes".
"Will you go to jails? Will you render sacrifices for religion?" he shouted to replies of assent each time.THUG MULLAH ALSO SAID , "We can resolve all problems confronting us if we sincerely implement sharia."WELCOME TO PAKISTAN......

Re: # 94 Hamidm2....u r not kiddin.....thanks for that long march everyone wanted to install that judge and also thanks to MUSHY BOY who did not kill him....now in afew weeks CHICKS WITH STICKS will be on ISLAMABAD streets banging everything....as they r banged by this mullah at nite.

Re: # 95
"You cannot be fearful and free at the same time; it is a contradiction in terms".

correction, tehsin saab. you cannot be fearful and be a hedonist at the same time.

Re: # 94

Hamdm2, please attend to your own droppings!

#81 Posted by Urstruly

“freedom is a state of mind’

Your passion is endearing and your dedication complete. What I am fascinated by is your ability to mold unrelated concepts and twist them to your point of view. Freedom being a state of mind, is a western and if I dare say also, an Indian philosophical concept. There is no such virtue in the Islamic lexicon. The competing virtue that Islam upholds is that of taqva, in other words khauf e khudavandi, best exemplified in the life of Umar Farooq the second caliph. Hadrat Umar was consumed by this overwhelming fear of what he would have to account for on judgment day. You cannot be fearful and free at the same time; it is a contradiction in terms.

The only fear that you are free of in Islam, is that of dying, because you are either a ghazi or a shaheed. In case of the latter you are promised heaven without being subjected to a trial I guess. This may be great for those who have nothing to live for in this world and if the whole aim is to end up in heaven, the sooner you get there the better it is for you as well as these world dwellers. But please Darth Vader! Freedom is a state of mind. You too can see the light.

.... after a week i had a chance to look at the paki papers and i to remind everyone that verily we are fckued!

...... with maulana abdul aziz back in the lal masjid and the thousand plus chicks with sticks pregnant with future jihadis and suicide bombers, we are verily and very fckued indeed ...........

..... i want to remind everyone that during the lal masjid seige i had advocated dropping a couple of twenty thousand pound bombs on that nest of vipers ...... it is still not to late .... maybe we can get the good for nothing horrible hidoos to drop a bomb or two next friday instead of pontificating on chowk ......

he's back..and he's bringing islam back to the islamic republic of pakiland...

Maulana Abdul Aziz back preaching at Red Mosque

ISLAMABAD: The head of the radical Red Mosque, stormed by Pakistani troops in 2007, made a defiant return Friday following his release on bail, leading thousands of followers in prayer and calling for the enforcement of Islamic law across the militancy-plagued country.

In the latest move likely to alarm the West, authorities Thursday released Maulana Abdul Aziz, the leader of Islamabad's Red Mosque, after a court granted him bail on the last in a string of charges related to the bloody 2007 siege and military assault.

Thousands of people crammed into the rebuilt mosque on Friday to hear Aziz lead prayers and deliver a rallying call for opponents of nuclear-armed Pakistan's shaky democratic order.

'I tell you that you should be ready to make sacrifices for Islam. The day is not far away when Islam will be enforced in the whole of the country,' the bespectacled, gray-bearded cleric said, his voice carried on loudspeakers to crowds that spilled out into neighboring streets.

'What we have seen in Swat and the tribal areas is the result of the sacrifices at the Red Mosque: the students, the people who were martyred,' Aziz said.

The Red Mosque siege was a turning point in Pakistan's slide into religious extremism and violence.

Army commandos assailed the complex days after heavily armed militants holed up inside fought gunbattles with police and refused to surrender. The government says 102 people, including 11 security personnel, were killed.

Aziz was arrested as he tried to sneak out of the mosque compound, which included a seminary for girls, dressed in an all-covering burqa worn by some Muslim women.

Taliban militants seized on the assault to launch a stream of suicide bombings, especially in Swat, which the United States worries has turned into another stronghold for allies of al-Qaida.

Aziz still faces charges ranging from abetting terrorists to illegally occupying a building.

On his release from house arrest on Thursday, he insisted his struggle for Islamic law was peaceful.

Re: # 91

KHYBER

Unfortunately, this model has been used in the past with devastating results for the people of pakistan but serves the interest of those who wish to maintain status quo.

#89 rf786...Thanks for ur response...I was going to say that but HASHO79 COMMENT by calling it a pashtun movement just piss me off.....

#79
Just a few months ago you were saying that ANP has brought shame to ghaffar khan's memory by making the Swat peace deal. Now you're endorsing it?

Re: # 79

Dear Hasho / HP

Writes: "The Taliban is a Pathan movement and their game is to takeover NWFP and FATA. Though I doubt that too."

Group synonymous to Taliban may be of Pukhtoon origins but is no longer limited to that group of people, I am afraid this compartmentalization has two problems:

1) Creates ethnic differences by targeting Pukhtoons. Already the Sher-e-Punjab Shahbaz Sharif is talking of fencing Punjab borders.

2) Ignores the real threat ie the Islamic zealots waiting for the signal in rest of the country, in particular southern Punjab.

Religious groups irrespective of their beliefs and sects will not oppose each other no matter what the other may do whereas the liberals or sort of liberals will spare no moment to criticize and demonize their opponents but when it comes to the religious folks there they to lose their confidence and choose silence or worse compromise, for what? A few more petty moments of existence?

HP Saeen writes: "We need to look at what is in Pakistan's interest and that interest is to create peaceful conditions and if that means swallowing pride over Swat types demands, then be it."

What pride bhai? How can a nation that capitulates whenever faced with opposition have any pride, no sir, as they say in urdu Chiloo bhur panee mein sharam sey marjana chaheya..then again that would be difficult cause we have no shame.

Create peaceful existence after killing hundreds and thousands of innocent people and imposing a barbaric way of life, I will beg to differ.

And this anti American position is not going to help, today its the Americans tomorrow its going to be ALL of the neighbors, then there will be no place to hide or swallow your pride.

Re: # 81

Dear Urstruly

Would you be willing to accept an atheist but free Pakistan? Free of all shackles, free to implement the will of its people, but atheist. Your response will be greatly appreciated

#79HASHO..........U SOUND ANOTHER TYPICAL PAKISTANI WHO WANTS TO HIDE HIS HEAD IN SANDS AND THINK EVERYTHING IS American agenda,wow so flogging innocent girl or killing young couple for having an affair is AMERICAN AGENDA TOO??????????This who think everything is a AMERICAN agenda should read writing on the wall,if your brave ARMY has any will to crush these thugs and criminals hiding in rat holes of tribal areas,I dont know why you guys are paying ur ARMY..it can't win wars,it can't crush criminals thugs and terroirts but it can only rule and destroy constitution.

Re: # 83

urslully saab

peon was right saab

you have no brain saab

peon is probably lot poorer than you but knows what is happening has no end saab

only thing will happen that some thugs will become new elite saab and in end will be no different for poor man like peon saab

So prophet tahmed supports droopy

droopy lets maulana burkha out of jail...

ergo...

well the latest is LAL MASJID TERRORIST MULLAH IS FREE and in his first hate speech at terror mosque , he said,''I tell you that you should be ready to make sacrifices for Islam. The day is not far away when Islam will be enforced in the whole of the country,so that means this new guy at supreme court is supporter of taliban,mullahs and al quida,how can you release a terror mullah from prison????Well i GUESS in Pakistan this can happen.....

Re: # 22 HasanMahmood

You and I are from two different planets. The chasm in the society that we blong to have become so deep and so wide that we can never have a dialogue. You are the inheritor of vassal menatlity that was instilled in some of the people of the land by 90 years of british oppression. It is not your fault. You cannot have concept of what freedom is and what sovereignity is. How can a blind man tell what an elephant looks like? In the words of Qura'n 'how can a blind man and one that see be have equal understanding?" Unfortunately a time has come that a peaceful coexistence have become impossible. It wasn't possible before either, but then only you had all the guns; but now we have the guns too.

Re: # 81

are you saying when we want freedom from the taliban later, if we are not happy with them, we can take up the gun again saab?

this will never end saab and if you think it will then you donnot have any brain saab

Re: # 47 TehsinA

Paksiatn won its freedom in 1956, on the day, when it broke the schakles and chains of a dominion. On that day the the first constitution of Paksiatn declared it as an Islamic Democratic Republic of Pakistan. Two years later in 1958 paksitan lost its freedom to what I call British colonialism ki najaiz aulad - the corrupt pro-western elite which constitutes a haramkhor anti-pakistan mercinery army and those civilians who used to wash their gora sahib's dogs. The struggle that people of pakistan have started today should have started in 1958, but then people were weak and anyone who used to raise his voice was decimated by the corrupt ruling elite - the kuttay nehlanay walay. Every street, every jail, and every torture cell from torkhum to Dhaka has a painful story to tell. But now people have voice and people have guns. That as the reason all the forces of evil in this world have gathered around pakistan to enslave it again. What these peieces of shit don't know is that freedom is a state of mind - the awakening - vasallage is not the name of shackels and chains - its is also the state of mind.

Azad Pakistan zindabad.

#75 Posted by KHYBER on April 16, 2009 1:12:30 pm

paras, dude...paras...

#75 Posted by KHYBER

Your post shows that you are another Taliban in the making. A Taliban does not have to be an Islamist. He/she can be an extremist from any other ideology too.

Pakistan may not qualify to be a democratic country yet, but the main feature of democracy is that you live with all kinds of political and religious ideologies.

Like the Taliban, you want to deny people the right to differ with you. Everyone has a right to mold Pakistan in their own political ideology. The issue with the Islamists is that they want to force their pov on the people and that needs to be resisted.

What if the Taliban reach Islamabad? These are not the old days of 1000 AD, when conquering Delhi meant conquering whole India. You think the people outside of Islamabad would give in to the Taliban? Non Sense.

I see no possibility of Taliban ever controlling Islamabad. The Islamists from Punjab with help from the Army might, like they did with Zia's help. You must be in cradle when that happened.

The Taliban is a Pathan movement and their game is to takeover NWFP and FATA. Though I doubt that too.

The US has an agenda in the area and they have moved their propaganda machinery couple of notches up on Pak Afghan thingy, like they did in 2003 against Iraq.

We need to look at what is in Pakistan's interest and that interest is to create peaceful conditions and if that means swallowing pride over Swat types demands, then be it.

Re: # 75

Dear Khyber,

Would you, please, put together all your posts in here and arrange them, join them and then edit the whole thing carefully.

I believe, you would have a decent article of your own, once again. Thanks. I hope, you don't mind me suggesting this.

Sattar ji ..... I think some of us are saracasm-handicapped.

You will need to be a bit less subtle....

It is what it is.

arjun #32, ... fine, go to the moon if you must ... but once we get there, it too would be partitioned ... as soon as we figure out namaz timings and the direction of qibla ...

... then once again ahmadis would be declared non-muslims ...

POST#74 masadi...IF women are going being flogged in public, IF dead men are going to taken out of graves to be rekilled( beheaded), IF women are going to be treated only as material property and not as humanbeings, And IF the country’s laws are going to be made by putting a gun to the temple of the so called elected parliament than I do not want this Islam or Pakistan.Pakistan is lost. The populace there wants to go back to the dark ages barring a few liberals and even among them most are more concerned abotu anti-americanism than the fight against the Taliban. Focus now needs to be on containment of the problem. Oh and the the people who feel Saudi is a role model really need to open their eyes - Saudi is a society sustained on easy oil money. Without it there would be no progress and the country would still be in teh dark ages. Look at Afghanistan - the benevolent Taliban years yielded nothing. And Pakistan will also now go backwards in search of this utopia ,considering the attitude of our failed authorities I believe US should be openly allowed to come in and eradicate this extremist mess. Let us face the eventual fact that (god forbid) it will be sooner than later when these terrorists will be in our main cities like Lahore and Karachi… roaming freely. What Kemal Ataturk did in Turkey the same policy has to be applied.Wake up pakistan - your days are numbered. You are supposed to be a land of purity, instead your leaders prefer that you become a land of criminals.
The Quaid didn’t fight for this kind of Pakistan ,today the fact is Taliban/Al Queda which are nothing but inhuman terrorist organisations are behaving as if Almighty has formally appointed them to protect HIS interests. its almost as if he told them � i cant protect myself and i am too weak to manage the world so i am appointing your guys to act on my behalf inclduding killing people indiscriminately in my name..� and the same is being accepted by establishment and the majority of the people are accepting it silently..I still cant understand which GOD will tell human beings to kill fellow innocent humna beings in His name??I am extremly upset, angry and sad about the hypocratic decision of the Pukhtoon Champions (ANP) who misled people in the election by bringing peace to NWFP. I do not see any difference between the Muallah and them. I really feel sorry for those people who are left at the mercy of wild mullahs .

Pew writes "Swat does not yet have Al Qaeda. Hence, limited US interest and Pak Army complicity with the surrender."

Very convenient analysis, so the Al-Qaeda pops up to justify US aggression against countries, even though the Taliban outnumer and outgun and outplay the Al-Qaeda, and there is no distinction in official US BS between the two where it concerns Pakistan. Al-Qaeda is a ghost, a privatized capitalist mercenary force much like Blackwater (though not as sophisticated) that is conveniently called upon to create an excuse for pre-planned U.S. operations much like the "communist menace" that faciliated the neo-colonization of the World by the U.S during much of the cold war period.

TNITC masadi

Re: # 69 Tahmed writes

"It is indeed a mystery why the military did not go after the taliban hammer and tongs (or tanks and planes) as it did in bejaur."

It is NO MYSTERY if you realize that Pak Army makes a distinction between 'foreign militants' (euphemism for Al Qaeda) and 'Taliban' (useful for keeping 'options open' in Afghanistan). In Bajaur, significant Al Qaeda were present and the US threatened to go in after them if the Pak Army did not. Indeed, Bajaur is said to be Al-Qaeda's main command and control hub for operations in Northeast Afghanistan and Kunar Province*. Pak Military DID NOT have a choice given this US ultimatum, and when they went in they LEVELED the town.

Swat does not yet have Al Qaeda. Hence, limited US interest and Pak Army complicity with the surrender.

*http://www.longwarjournal.org/archives/2008/08/pakistani_troops_r et.php

tahmed writes "Panjabis need to wake up and recognize the existential threat Pakistan faces from the maulvis..."

Leave it to tahmed to read CIA reports and BS by the US establishment and then spit that garbage out here in the form of a 'long post'. People who are living the life in Pakistan know that these 'long distance' "scholars" are merely pursuing an agenda where they want to tie US BS with Pakistan. This is not our war, it never was our war, it never will be our war and you can go climb a goddamned pole. The only "existential" threat to Pakistan is the Pakistan Army, both both physically through external provocation to keep its nuisance value as in Kargil and intrinsically by destroying our economy through keeping us dependent on their American paymasters and through the civil wars they provoke as in 1971 etc.

Pakistan under the Pakistan Army is a dead man walking. Tahmed is telling a "dead man" that his existence is threatened so that those that killed him/her in the first place can grow fat on what is left of the carcass they have been consuming for the past 60 years.....May God damn the Pakistan Army, tahmed and his kind of peons of the West

TNITC masadi

Chicks with sticks and she-male Tlaiban will be on ISLAMABAD streets soon as mullah in BURQUA of LAL MASJID is out of jail.

#69 tahmed32...Yes it did make sense.(ur post)

TrichMir #68 It is indeed a mystery why the military did not go after the taliban hammer and tongs (or tanks and planes) as it did in bejaur. Rather than speculate (e.g. maybe the taliban learnt something from bejaur and made themselves unavailable for receipt of Pakistani bullets), i'll leave this as an unanswered question until the facts become better known in due course.

So, to this extent you are right. I dont agree that for ANP all taliban are bad talibans - I have myself heard ANP ministers on Geo making this distinction.

Accepting the surrender of weapons and waiving punishments for "good taliban" is one thing, but letting them keep their weapons and giving them swat as prize for their brutality - which is what the government has done - is another.

I also dont agree that the army is a panjabi army. pathans are in fact very well represented relative to population, including in the senior ranks. And while this is no reflection on the views of all pathans, there are two retired pathan generals i recall having distinctly pro-taliban attitdues. (One was complaining to me a few years ago about americans throwing "baray baray bum" at the innocent lambs, i.e. the taliban, in afghanistan - what else did he expect in a war?!! another one asked me if i felt victimized as a muslim in america - and when i told him in fact americans had in fact gone out of their way to make muslims feel secure after 9/11 and in fact my sympathies were with the 3000 innocent people whom the "guests" of the taliban had killed, he gave me a look of disbelief).

Having said the above, your basic point in the final para. of your post is valid. Panjabis need to wake up and recognize the existential threat Pakistan faces from the maulvis. in the 1990's the taliban brutalized the afghans, and pakistanis called this western propaganda. in 2001 the alqaeda attacked the US, and the taliban brutalized the afg and Pakistanis refused to believe that "muslims" could do such a thing. the alqaeda/taliban entered fata, and the residents welcomed them as "muslim brothers". then they saw their real satanic face - and it was too late. they took over swat, and swatis saw their real satanic face - and it was too late for them. now NWFP are beginning to see their satanic fact - and the panjab is silent. tomorrow it will be the panjab - and it will be too late for the panjab unless it wakes up now.

btw, i dont think the pakistani military is unaware of all of the above. it now has i think no option but to wait until the civilian governments in NWFP and the Panjab start asking for military action. Since, after a decade of military dictatorship, the military stock is so much lowered with the public that it is too late for it to act independently of the civilian governments. and that may be pakistan's salvation - IF the civilian governments in NWFP and the Panjab as well as the PPP wake up in time (as, to its credit, the mqm government already is), and do what should have been done 8 years ago - namely, call on the military to do its job and repel this taliban/alqaeda/maulvi invasion of Pakistan.

long post. hope it makes sense.

Re: # 64

Army was sent into Swat and it failed to provide positive result, so the ANP was left no other option but to strike deal with the Talebans. The generals do whatever they think is good for them and for "their" army, they don't take orders form the civilian government. If people like Afzal Khan welcome the peace deal than it must have been inevitable.

I must admit that ANP's overall role has not been very exemplary, I was appalled to see the reaction of some certain ANP leaders to the lashing of that Swati girl. But the people throughout Pashtunkhwa have organized lashkars to fight against the well-armed and good organized Talebans, even though they have not been very successful to uproot them.

For ANP all Talebans are bad Talebans, only the Pakistani army generals distinguish between good and bad Talebans.

Punjabis have to organize big rallies and protests to persuade the army to do what should have been done long time ago and they have to do it before the Talebans reach Ohind. Whether people like to hear it or not, pakistani army is virtually Punjabi army and only Punjaibs can change the mindset of their army generals.

Hi fellas:

Why are you getting stomach ulcers by criticizing Talibs in SWAT? If you don't like them leave them alone. It is like isolating the cancerous cells in one area and walling off. It won't spread and metastatize. Just keep an eye on it. It is much easier to contain. Now take it easy.

These Talibs will soon reallize that running the state within state is not easy, so they have to change!!!! Wa Salaam.

Kamath

Loop: Dont make up stuff - of course there are many Pakistanis opposed to what MQM did on May 12. But the mqm is now playing a positive role in the broader national interest of all Pakistanis by strongly opposing the taliban deal, and that too will no doubt is being recognized.

If you need to make up "facts" to defend these enemies of Pakistan and the enemies of Islam (whose named the taleban have dragged through mud with thei criminal actions), then I need to pray to Allah that he creates a special place in hell for traitors like you.

Hasho #55 You lost me here. Violence does not require building up a political following first. In fact, violence is a means of by-passing the political process.

TrichMir #63 Afsandyar Wali and ANP should have done what you are now doing - calling on the federal government to take effective military action to end the menace. He didnt do that. Instead took the opposite route. The beghairat route of selling out the Swatis.

As for PMLN holding jalsas in Lahore against talebans - again, if ANP did what you are doing and asked PMLN to become more proactive in its opposition to the talebans, that would be different. But ANP is doing the opposite and actively calling for distinguishing between "good" and "bad" taliban (what is a "good taliban"? the one who tells you he wont kill you if you let him become the unelected ruler!!).

So - be brave. Put responsibility where it belongs. With the provincial government of NWFP, the government that has chosen to represent the taliban rather than the people who elected them.

Those who are admonishing Asfandyaar for bowing down to Talebans will tell us what ANP should have done? Do they have any solution or they are just criticizing for the sake of criticizing.

The Glorious army of Pakistan had failed to contain Talebans who were running amok in the whole Malakand division. They were beheading and flogging innocent civilians and the provincial and central government had lost their writ over Malakand. More than 100 main ANP workers were killed and their leader was attacked by a suicide bomber.

The ANP tried to save whatever could be saved. What did those ever do to help ANP in fighting against the Islamists who are living far away in peaceful Lahore? I think the idiot is thinking that the Jihadis after taking over whole Pak will chose him their first ameer ul momeneen. When PMLN is coming out and holding big jalsas against Talebans as it recently did to acheive Nawaz's persoanl goals?

Re: # 49

Thanks.

Re: # 59I wrote it because you continously call it political. Well enforcing things with a barrel of gun and coying local populace into submission is not exactly political process. Lenin Casto's analogy has been given, but those had genuine mass support. Frankly those may also have adopted arms, but it was way different. Thise movement originated out of class struggle. It was not like cultivation of Jiahdi camps which have now gone out of control.

hasho u have made a very crucial and valid point.
ppl are all in arms against taliban and extremists but why this whole nation is deaf and dumb when it comes to the criminal mafia of MQM (i refuse to call it a political party) is beyond me.
if this nation needs to get rid of any extremists group and mass killers its MQM for sure...
someone just told me yesterday that he went to an mqm jalsa and they were urged to buy weapons and stock them because there will be a need to use them pretty soon.

I jknow that Maulana Fazal Ullah fought last elections and had a sweeping victory!!!!!His "party" is structured democratically and in fact they also have primaries!!!!

---

Yeah right! Fidel Castro won sweeping victories, Lenin toppled every one in polling, Naser won 90% of votes.
Congress won elections in Kashmir and Zia got 90% votes in referendum.
Election is just one way of measuring popularity. It is not the final one.

Madni sahib,

MQM is just another name of the Taliban. You will find out if you don't know it already.

Re: # 52
Yeah sure its a political matter. I jknow that Maulana Fazal Ullah fought last elections and had a sweeping victory!!!!!His "party" is structured democratically and in fact they also have primaries!!!!
They go to street as a peaceful demonstration to their adherence to their ideology. bravo!

Govt and army has made not tactical mistake but strategic blunder. They will loose power slowly and steadly as if power not used judiciously power looses. Sad part is Majority iS SILENCED by TTP which can be silent/impotent( Except MQM and Altafbhai) majority. With defeatist and no idealogy leadershipof rulers and army no soldier will like to die for them . Army could still win provided they are ready to loose for nation or otherwise they will loose in long term for nothing.
Good day and good luck we need that for sure.

Tahemd what you fail to understand that the TSNM did not resort to violence from day one. They built their following peacefully until they were in a position or were allowed to be in a position to use violence.

The Police and army can't resolve political issues. The ban on political activities and then the MMA government allowed them to gain strength.
It took them years to get to where they are now and it will take years to bring them down.
Army and police can't resolve this problem.

Hasho: the FM radio may have helped get some recruits - but the main reason was that the local police were not upto fighting the taliban who were better armed and better motivated, and the military for some reason that i dont know refused to go after the taliban the way it did in Bejaur.

#53 you simply ignored what i said and the reasons i provided about not blaming the Swatis for this. sigh. this too is chowk!

I promise you that I for one will dedicate all the time necessary to debunk this opera of the absurd.
--

I forgot to respond to this.

You have no clue about the social and cultural life in NWFP and areas like Swat. If you are not respectful to their political, religious or social belief, you are going to get it.
You are dealing with conservative folks and calling their beliefs opera of the absurd would just add one more dead body to the earth.

Provide us chowkies with an FM station which would beam our ‘rants’ into Swat and I promise you that I for one will dedicate all the time necessary to debunk this opera of the absurd.
---

Mullah Fazal was not born with FM in his home. He spent time and efforts there developing his following.
This is a political matter and can only be handled politically.

We should recall that only a couple of years ago the Indian government allowed Qazi courts for Muslims for deciding family matters. That too is a parallel system but since there was a demand for that the Indian government agreed to that without much ho-hum.

I certainly don't support the Nizam adl but I support peoples right to decide for themselves.

Re: # 47
You have answered extremely well and with very good arguments.

ANP are a bunch of shady characters, if you ask me. Afsandyar Wali was talking big about "maslihat chahihay, beghariati nahin" only last year. And both in the March 12 Long March and now again in Swat he has shown nothing but beghairati. Afsandyar Wali too would feel right at home in chowk.

HP#45 I agree though that it is a stretch to call it the partition of Pakistan: in fact, the flip side of this otherwise smelly deed points in the opposite direction - since the flip side says that that which the National Assembly giveth, it can taketh back.

But then, chowk is about s-t-r-e-t-c-h--i--n--g to a point of absurdity. So Hussaini bhai fits right in.

Or you can say that ANP is feeling the heat in Swat and thats why ANP is so adamant about the the deal going through.
Politicians have sensors in every part of their bodies, they see which way people are moving and they move that way too.
The ANP's collective decision is to bring peace in the area. The whole idea might be abhorrent to them but they are prepared to live with it until the tide turns the other way.

#38 Posted by Hasho


“Instead of screaming and yelling on Chowk, people that are against the Islamist victory in Swat should head to swat and scream there.�

Was it the Taliban yelling and screaming on chowks in Mingora that convinced the populace to accept the current arrangement? Or would you say they won an election? They are enforcing their writ through the barrel of a gun, what the heck are you talking about, but allow me to humor you.

Mullah Fazlullah did not shout on street corners in the past trying to have people be convinced by his arguments, his speeches were carried over illegal FM stations while he languished in some remote hideout, away from any possibility of physical harm coming to him. What is good for him is good enough for me, why don’t we level the playing field. Provide us chowkies with an FM station which would beam our ‘rants’ into Swat and I promise you that I for one will dedicate all the time necessary to debunk this opera of the absurd.

Re: # 45
Street power?
Come on we all know that what the hell power these barbarians have. Elected Majority of ANP. Well common sense dictates that a left wing and infact a pro USSR party in 1980s actually is not "respecting" the mandate of people. Its been forced into submission by force through gun.

What is going on here is not criticism. Writing shamelessly that the National Assembly has partitioned Pakistan is pure garbage. It is National assembly's job to respect the majority opinion and the Majority in Swat wants to go back to the system they had before they officially joined Pakistan.

ANP has elected majority in Swat and TSNM apparently has the street power. It is clear that a Majority in Swat supports both parties.

There is a democratic solution there and that is to convince the people that the Sufi Nizam adl is not for them. Taking any other way or calling the army would be a disaster.

Darfur has no relevance to this situation. Darfur isa war between the pro govt and anti govt tribes. There are no tribes involved in Swat. It is clearly people's will, right or wrong. We have to live with that for the time being and continue making efforts to change that.

HP: Although I will agree, there is an issue of timely provision of justice not just in Swat but all over Pakistan. Justice delayed is justice denied (a basic tenet that we were taught at a training institue i once went to). And delayed justice is endemic in developing countries - i once heard a retired high court judge from india describe how hard it is even to get cases registered in court, and sometimes cases take as much as 10 years to even appear before judge. But the solution to this is more efficient judicial systems (including computerization), as is being done in many countries. To put an illiterate monkey in place as a "qazi" to give quick justice is hardly a solution. Particularly when that monkey scared you with a gun into giving him the authority.

#40 HP: The people of Swat elected moderates, not the taliban. Many of them (including one of their elected reps) fought bravely and outgunned, while the nation betrayed them and no one came to their aid. The government did not even have a referendum in Swat on this issue. So no need to blame the victims, i.e. the people of Swat.

Re: # 40
And yes, if protests at chowk are bothering your nizam e adl mind so much, why dont you switch to some other site or do not look at this 24/7 yelling by "cowards" who can not go to Mingora and fight with guns for removal of that Nizam Adl.

Re: # 38
Sir following your logic, no one has a right to critisize unless one is physically there. So what does it tantamount to. That one can not write about Darfur without being in Darfur, no one can write about Iraq with out being in Iraq. And yes although Mingora is less distant from Islamabad but no one wants to get his/her head chopped off by going there.
If a change had materialized due to political process then this argument of going to Mingora and street protests might have been valid. Unfortunately its through usage of barbaric force which does not have any traditional political tactical answer.
Now dont expect us to get armed and go there!!!!

Tahmed,
I accept that the moderate got there a-s handed to them in Swat. I have no interest in fighting there. It is small area and by making a mountain out of this nonsense, people are just encouraging Islamists and nothing else.

Islamists have public support and no amount of military action or police action can change that. Now is the time to start some reforms and persuade the locals to change their minds.

If you are so much worried abt Swat, I think you should head out there instead of 24/7 yelling on Chowk.

HP: I'll be glad to be the second person in go to swat and rant at those guys with guns - if you set an example by being the first.

Instead of writing long screeds and blaming every one in Pakistan, some posters here should have spent some time in Swat convincing the population that the Nizame adal is not in their interests.

I don't really understand the display of strong emotions on Chowk. These emotions should have been displayed on some chowk in Mingora or Saidu Sharif.

Mullah Sufi and his followers have delivered a political defeat to the liberal and moderate Pakistanis. They fought for the changes. Their tactics were brutal and often inhuman but as we can see from all media reports the local population continues to support them.

Instead of screaming and yelling on Chowk, people that are against the Islamist victory in Swat should head to swat and scream there.

In politics nothing is permanent. If the Islamist have won toady they can be defeated tomorrow.
Koi asman nahin toot kay gir para hai.

This is a small area in Pakistan and the annexation documents clearly stated that the Pakistan State will not change the local justice system in Swat. Some may call it sharia and other may call it a system for justice. Whatever might be the reasons, the Islamist have got their say and now it is up to their opponents to organize and attempt to change the policy there.

Under favorable conditions the Sufi Nazim adl can be rolled over in just days. But right now there is no political group in Swat which has more power than the ANP and TSNM and their wishes should be given preference. That is the essence of democracy, right or wrong.
Get over it.

#36Skeptical...Thanks for your comments,I am glad you liked my article ''state of denial'' too,I am not into provincialism,I am against elite, bourgeois,religious fanatics,corrupt politicians.

Re: # 35 I fully agree Mr Khyber. You talk sense most of the time. Its only when you blend in provinicialism you become too biased. Any how unfortunately Pakistanis particularly the lower to upper urban middle class is in a continous state of denial.

POST#29sattar2.....By hiding your head in sand will not help you,Muslims are the worst enemies of ISLAM themselves then non muslims,these ignorant Taliban have no knowlegde of ISLAM OR ISLAMIC LAWS,They killed a young couple in AFGHANISTAN for having an affair , do you know what are the rights of a woman in ISLAM when it comes to her marriage???BLAMING whole world for your failures and shortcomings will not help you,lets look into mirror and ask ourselves what went wrong???
Many Pakistanis have wasted their time decrying the video as a conspiracy intended to defame Islam and Pakistan. They should be demanding that the army — Pakistan’s strongest and most functional institution — defend against an insurgency that increasingly threatens the state. Like their military and political leaders, Pakistan’s people are in a pernicious state of denial about where the real danger lies.

Khyber #30 Very well said. "Islam" has become the mask behind which all sorts of criminal actions are carried out. Only now, after decades of creeping "Islamization", are at least some Pakistanis beginning to realize the evil that lurks behind this mask. I have seen the sons and daughters of perfectly sane, rational individuals grow up to be more "Islamic" than their parents. To the point where I told one of them that his late father would never have approved of his version of "Islam". This is the result of the unchecked indoctrination by maulvis.

Hats off to the brave and patriotic Pakistanis like Sherry Rehman and Ayaz Amir who are now on the front lines of confronting these enemies of Pakistan and of Islam. They are no longer fooled by the mask of "Islam" that these illiterates wear. The tide will inshallah turn.

#31 - Mr/Ms. Skeptical- you are absolutely right. We need stop blaming India, Isreal, and USA for everything that goes wrong and recognize that Jihadis are Our Real Enemies!

http://www.chowk.com/articles/11120

#29 Posted by sattar2 on April 15, 2009 4:23:58 pm


but they sure as hell won't get kashmir.



umm...hard to give up on something you don't have...

What really makes me wonder is the continous state of denial by most of the Pakistanis. We refuse to even admit that there is genuine militancy and keep on blaming everything on India or USA. Any excesses of Taliban are conviniently blamed as mere "propanganda".
Regarding NA being partitioning Pakistan, frankly they had no choice and for that matter ANP also did not have any choice. It was death or allowing the bill. Even now as the most horrible bill has been passed, the media continues its pro Taliban spin and keeps on calling US behind suicide attacks and fighting in Swat. Curiously fighting stopped as soon as the bill was passed. If indeed US is behind everything then surely it must have also wanted Nafaza e Adl bill!!!
Pakistani have to realize that Taliban are a monster created by us, who have now gotten out of control. But at the same time, the success and widespread support they have managed to garner in the conservative belt points to some problems or gaps which they have been successfully able to address. We need to identify those problems and tackle them to diminish the Taliban appeal.

The crisis in FATA and Swat has increasingly become reduced to a narrative of the evil Taliban versus the helpless state and society. That the Taliban have instituted a horrendous regime of terror is beyond question. But it is evasive and dangerous to think that the Taliban are the only bogeymen. We need to understand the ongoing crisis in terms of Talibanization as a historical process of Islamist moral policing and militancy, which has been an established part of state policy in Pakistan since its inception. Until we refuse to acknowledge this reality, and tackle it head on, we will be unable to address the existential mess in which we find ourselves today.
 
As early as the 1950s, senior government officials in Pakistan had begun to authorize hypocritical and intolerant religious policies in the name of promoting an Islamic identity for the new nation. Both the Pakistani state and society have thus been implicated in the process of Talibanization right from the start, reducing politics to cynical uses of religion instead of substantive citizenship, and encouraging a singular and authoritarian interpretation of Islam which is now being brought to its logical conclusion by the Taliban. Civilian and military governments have pandered to the fundamentalist lobby at every step for short-sighted political gains, and introduced Islamist policies themselves to strengthen their power. 
 
The mullah-military alliance has obviously made matters much worse. For more than two decades, the military-intelligen ce regime in Pakistan actually produced, trained, and funded the militants of today for Cold War needs, as well for its shallow campaigns of violence in Afghanistan and Kashmir that it euphemistically calls "strategic depth." 

Khyber,

India can have the moon if they want ... but they sure as hell won't get kashmir. It runs in our blood.

And if taliban get to the moon, first thing they'd do is to establish nizam-e-mustafa ... and then look for someone to flog. I wouldn't want to be a hindu running around the moon in a dhoti at a time like this ... so watch out ...

LIFE UNDER TALIBAN.....
GIRL FLOGGED IN SWAT.
Taliban execute eloping young lovers in Afghanistan.
Malakand announces Nizam-E-Adl implementation
SC grants bail to Maulana Aziz
India is talking about going to the Moon,Pakistanis are pushed into 7th century.
Malakand announces Nizam-E-Adl implementation
GOOD LUCK GUYS.

National Assembly has passed the Bill of Nizam-e-Adl Regulation 2009 which has been signed by President Asif Ali Zardari. I would like to ask the government of Pakistan about the status of the defunct Tehrik-e-Nifaz-i-Shariat-i-Muhammadi (TNSM) which has achieved her objective by putting pressure on the parliamentarians that the ones who opposed the bill would be declared as non-Muslims and secondly declaring Pakistan Dar-ul-harb (a house of war) in the failure of the bill. Awami National Party has violated the teachings of its founder Bacha Khan while MQM which was committed to her vision of making Pakistan a real democratic and moderate one by boycotting the session. The spirit of the pioneer of Pakistan has been hurt by this act as it has totally negated his address to the First Constituent Assembly of Pakistan on August 11, 1947. There must be a uniform law in the entire state but what a tragedy that a bill has been approved without any discussion.

#25 HassanMahmood: So, you think those who were killed Charsadda today deserved to be killed because Pakistanis voted for Benazir. Very insightful.

today's bomb blast shows how nice these people are lol. Of course Pakistanis deserve everything coming to them after they voted for the greatest hero of the free world Benazir and her great husband Zardari. Next stop for Talibans - Punjab. Good luck people. At least tell your media to open its eyes and start doing something about this instead of running stories about the life and legacy of dead politicians....

Re: # 23

Thanks.

Pakistan: Children of Taliban
PBS Documentary
http://www.pbs.org/frontlineworld/stories/pakistan802/

Mr. UrsTruly, here are the facts. When Umme-BaiGhairat or whatever her name is came on GEO TV and threatened to kill Pakistanis with bombs it was not an act of great qurbani or whatever you call it. She is not a muslim neither was any terrorist who was in that masjid so stop calling them shaheed. Secondly stop blaming the army, Americans, Indians, or jews for what is happeneing to Pakistan. Pakistan is a failed state which is only surviving because America does not want to get into another war. Inshallah one of these days someone will attack and take out these jahils and people like you who protect them. This law was only passed because politicians were scared of their lives and were afraid that the Talibans will come after them. Nobody is thinking of the country. I am ashamed that you can stand up and say salam to Lal Majid Kafirs and call them Shaheed. Waht a stupid man you are. Because of you and people like you Pakistan is where it is. Pakistanis deserve everything that is happening to them because most of them grow a beard and start thinking of themselevs as true muslims and start talking bull crap like you do. I am not sure where you are but if you can please give me your contact information I can gladly pass it along to local authorities so they know that people like you don't just exist in "the new Talibanistan". Now if you get scared of that because you might have a family and you don't want them to suffer because you are thrown in jail then just reply with another lengthy answer you are so famous for.

MINGORA, Pakistan -- Thousands of Islamist militants are pouring into Pakistan's Swat Valley and setting up training camps here, quickly making it one of the main bases for Taliban fighters and raising their threat to the government in the wake of a controversial peace deal....

ASIA NEWS: The Wall Street Journal, April 14, 2009. Courtesy: Rashid Malik.

Urstruly #16

May be a bit of education is in order for you as well. The constitution that you so authoritatively quoted is itself an extremely flawed document. First of all you cannot be Islamic and a Republic at the same time. Nothing in the Islamic State whether in theory or practice in 1500 years of history points towards any such entity. This is a contradiction in terms only to confuse a world which insists on legitimate states to sign the Universal Declaration of Human Rights to become members of the United Nations. The fact that Islam does not recognize such basic human rights forces Muslim countries into camouflaging themselves with language and excuses.

The term Islamic was never present when Pakistan was created. Pakistan was created as a secular republic for Muslims by its founders not a theocratic state. The introduction of the term Islamic was done in 1974 and had it been any other country where the rule of law and what a republic is expected to do none of these changes could have been instituted. This as well as the declaration of Qadianis as non Muslims would never have been allowed to stand, by the Supreme Court. Both come under tyranny of the majority which a republic is specifically asked to guard against.

So it is not the corrupt, prowestern, social elites of Pakistan to blame, it is more the mercenary army which in the end would just take the money, not fight and allow a legitimately elected government to be taken over by a cacophony of thugs. But this is nothing new for this type of state. The Ottomans could not trust the army and developed the Janissary core as their own loyal troops. The only way to resolve this issue is the Republic way i.e. a militia, a draft, Israel style with an armed populace ready to defend its rights and the state. But this may already be too late for Pakistan. Perhaps you have already established yourself in the new capital of the Taliban state is it Miran Shah or Wana?

talibanistan....

Pakistan: Militants to be 'protected' under Swat law


Islamabad, 15 April (AKI/DAWN) - Sufi Mohammad, the head of the Pakistani militant group Tehrik-i-Nifaz-i-Shariat-i-Muhammadi on Tuesday said militants accused of brutal killings would not be prosecuted under Islamic law administered in the troubled Swat valley.

"We intend to bury the past," the leader told a private television channel, off-camera. "Past things will be left behind and we will go for a new life in peace."

Mohammad's assertion highlights the dilemma facing the government as it seeks to halt 18 months of bloodletting in the Swat valley while convincing the nation, and the West, that it is not capitulating to militants.

Asked during the television interview on Tuesday whether the new courts would hear complaints from Swat residents about militant cleric Mullah Fazlullah or his followers, Sufi Mohammad said they could not.

Asked if the Taliban would enjoy such immunity, an NWFP minister only pleaded for peace.

"Everyone should understand what we have gone through and what kind of hardship people in Swat have suffered," Wajid Ali Khan said. "We can look into any disputes and controversy at some later stage."

A Taliban spokesman said that militants would cooperate if Islamic law was quickly implemented.

"The world will see how much peace and prosperity comes to this region," Khan said.

Mohammad said his followers would tour all districts of Malakand, including Buner, to "ensure peace". He also said that the courts would interpret civil rights according to Islamic strictures.

North West Frontier Province's Malakand region encompasses the Swat valley.

"Women will have full protection and rights under Sharia (Islamic law). They will live a better life, but behind the veil," he said.

Meanwhile, the Swat Taliban have "banned" the display of weapons in bazaars and other urban areas, saying there is no need to take up arms if ‘Shariat’ is enforced in letter and spirit.

The decision was taken after an appeal by Mohammad, Taliban spokesman Muslim Khan told journalists.

He said the Taliban had achieved their goal and they were ready to cooperate for the quick implementation of Islamic law.

He also praised president Asif Ali Zardari and members of the national assembly for having quickly approved this.

He expressed the hope that Islamic law would soon be implemented in letter and spirit.

Tehreek-e-Nafaz-e-Shariat-e-Mohammadi is a Pakistani militant group whose objective is to enforce Sharia law in the country.

It seems to me that the Taliban play their own game by their own rules. They are very nimble and highly adaptive, as any Si Valley startup. And they appear to have the upper hand at the moment.

And the Americans are conceding Taliban's gains and looking for scapegoats to blame...Karazai, ISI, Kiyani, Pakistan etc. The short-term objectives for U.S. forces in Afghanistan have narrowed under President Obama's new strategy, Defense Secretary Robert Gates has told "FOX News Sunday."

Gates is responding by the usual talk (it was dubbed Vietnamization when US was losing in 1960s) by saying the U.S. needs to focus its efforts on making headway and reversing the Taliban's momentum, and strengthening the Afghan army and police -- while really going after Al Qaeda.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re # 6.
This is exactly my point. This experiment will fizzle out itself because you cannot have the methods of the 7th century applied in the 21st. Even the ideology has to undergo monumental change to adjust to the times. So if some part of Pakistan would be reverted back to the 7th century with no women out of the homes and every one forced to have beards, you can wait to have the things flush out itself - or when it comes to your neck, have it taken out.
But seriously, it would have been a mild discomfort if so many lives (and the very existence of the State) were not at stake. The menace of these Talibans will not stop at this. They have taken over Buner and DG Khan and then Islamabad is just a stones throw away. Maybe then our Lords and Masters would realise that its time to act. Whether they will rush to Dubai or order Army strikes, time will tell.

Hussaini

Please educate yourself before writing something like this. Although, I do not recognize the current puppet regime as a legitimate ruling entity in Pakistan but by implementing Shariah in Swat through an act of parliament they have only acted according to the Article 2, 2A, and 227-231. I only wish that the corrupt ruling elite occupying Islamabad and Pakistan would have done it without the danda that Taliban have shoved in. The martyrdom of Shaheeds of Lal Masjid, the innocent school girls of Jamiah Hafsa gave their lives to force these corrupt, prowestern, social elites of pakistan to act on nothing but what Constitution od Islam Republic of Pakistan demands them to do throuhout Pakistan.

Lal Masjid ke Shaheedo tunhara khoon rang laya hay. Tumhari azmat ko salam. Tumhari qurbani pe hum qurban.

A most disappointing development!

There is a direct co-relation between the last elections and the ongoing fissure of Pakistan.

I think there can be no turning back at this point. Punjabi passports I suspect from soon on.

I refer you to my ilog .. from a year ago

http://chowk.com/ilogs/65649/48052

And the hits keep on coming:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_XJZnESwcgo&feature=channel

A ghastly reminder of what nizam-adl is all about. It is indeed a battle within.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30tGS-xDJg0&feature=channel

Re: # 9

It is heartbreaking to visualize 170 million people turned into casino chips.

Syed Hussaini

Partitioned is a mild description of such calamitous events, Pakistan establishment is playing an extremely dangerous game of poker and have put the entire country at risk, however if they win then the potential dividends are huge (for the establishment only).

It was not the first time that the national assembly of Pakistan brought grief to the people. The parliament in the 50s agreed to a parity rule for East Pakistan causing a majority province to be at par with all minority provinces combined in one-unit. In 1974, Qadianis were declared non-muslims by the then parliament under Mr. ZA Bhutto. A discriminatory law of monumental proportions.
Though it is not the parliamentarians alone. Things got to this point after the army was beaten/unwilling to fight, in Swat. Hence the provincial government was forced to have a truce with the enemy.

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Re: # 4

The experiment you are referring to, failed in Afghanistan. To expect a different result of the same experiment, this time in Pakistan, would be illogical.

Re: # 3

Racism is not nice.

Re: # 2
First of all, Niazi? :)When did that happen?

Anyway. There is no bright point. Period. But this part of the country has always been a bit of a trouble. These chaps are virtually un-governable; so if they want their own system of courts and stuff, its better to grin and bear it (okay, grimace, maybe). I am in no way supporting them. Just being pragmatic. Yesterday NOT ONE person opposed this sh*t except Ayaz Amir. Its one thing to talk so self assuredly (or if you happen to be anti-Pakistan, grinning) but realistically speaking what were the options? Wiping out the whole area? Making them sprout elsewhere too? And besides, knowing the public mindset here, I would like to see how they manage it. Its one thing to enforce something of your own choice; quite another to carry it out.

Syed Hussaini please stop being such a drama queen, you should sit down and catch your breath. it seems you wrote the whole piece in one go without ever revising it...

plus where did you get this fact

""The Taliban once ruled Afghanistan. They ruled it in a way that it brought in the wrath of the United States. The Taliban were defeated and ran for their lives. They sought refuge in Pakistan and made themselves the rulers of a substantial part of their refuge.""

this is the most absurd thing i ever heard, if the taliban have run away what is USA doing in Afghanistan? fighting ghosts of the taliban. Why are people bent of writing fraudulent pieces which do not hold an ounce of truth.

as for the govt signing the swat law it is the first wise act in the history of Pakistan. a country which was created in the name of Allah and Islam has finally come to terms with Allah's Law. Insha-Allah we will soon see sharia law all over pakistan.

Plus this whole partition thing, please grow up, as long as we are all muslims we are one. you forget that when india was threatining pakistan and ppl like us were hiding in our bedrooms it was the Taliban and the ppl of NWFP who said that one move by india on pakistan and we will forget our differences with the pakistan army and govt and fight shoulder to shoulder with them. these are men who are true muslims, true mujahideen and were it not for their valour and courage and their immense faith your ruler would now be a nigga.

Fouzi Niazi Saheb,

What are the bright points here?

May be a secure place for carrying on drug peddling and arms smuggling by the ex-fauzis??

Its not as bleak as it is painted.