Sufi Muhammed...No More a Joke

Re: # 45 That was pretty impressive explanation. However allow me to ask a humble question as I am a questioner
Mr. Philosopher why are you so arrogant? I have seen your posts generally you have a complete disregard for people's opinion. Is it because you have formally studied philosophy and you think that because of that training you are intellectually way ahead. In some pure philosophical arenas like metaphysics, epistemology etc there is no doubt that you are better equipped to debate. But i have seen that even in social issues or political issues you have a degrading attitude towards others. Intellectual discourse is the right of everyone and people can be intelligent even without formal philosophical training. They can be convincing even without throwing in technical philosophical terms( which you keep on throwing in your posts) and can be right even without removing so called “cognitive� prejudices. You know better than me that how much philosophers themselves differ and different school of thoughts have completely different stances about even hardcore philosophical issues.

Tehsin sahib

Well..the "Tiger Woods" example seems even more relevant now.You didn't even touch the theme of the article and seems to have no clue of what it was about.I wasn't dealing with the Philosophy of Aristotle or for that matter Plato. I didn't mention the name of Plato in that post.Did i?

As i had told u that it was a methodological exposition of the political Islam and i tried to point out theirrelevance of the formal Logic as a methodology to deal with laws concerning the society and the irrelevance of its function to deal with the existential discourse of the religious truth.

I didn't even touch the issue of VALIDITY here because unless the methodology at hand leads to any implication(absolute or plausible) the question of validity is meaningless.Did i try to validate or invalidate anything there? I didn't even mention the flaws of the Aristotelian(formal) logic which are universally accepted by the logician and philosophers.

These flaws are so obvious that if a person is unaware of them would be unable to get even an intermediate certificate from any Pakistan college.But the question at hand was the relevance of the formal Logic on religious and socio-political issues and its implications both in the intellectual and political realm.

I have been repeatedly saying this on chowk that Logic is not concerned with the content or the material or for that matter the any kind of non-formal validity of thought.
Logic has its function only in the formalization of epistemological structure and even there,there are various debatable and controversial issues in it,for in order to provide basis for formalization there MUST be only one logic but as we all know that there are many logics which implies that there is NO logic(because formalization demands the "Coherence view of Truth" otherwise the whole debate regarding logic and formalization(validity and invalidity based on logic) becomes gibberish:)

What i have pointed out is the "fallacy" of the muslim theologians and jurists who applied the categories borrowed by the Greek Logic on the non-propositional structure of the Quranic language and the "laws" mentioned in the Quran.Instead of taking the Quran as an organic whole and Prophet(PBUH)'s Sunnah as the METHODOLOGY to deal with the social conditions of the Arabia of that time,they derived laws from the so called attributes of God which were constructed on the categories borrowed by the Greek Logic.Whereas,in fact, these so called attributes are not attributes in the formal sense.These are merely the Modes of the Formal substance.Thus the whole structure of jurisprudence was declared Immutable because it was the demand the of the formal logic which is only concerned with the form and not the content.

Remember...(i won't repeat it again) my post was not even remotely dealing with the validity or the Actuality(in the philosophical sense) of any religious assertion or the religion as a whole rather it was just the philosophical exposition of the methodology at hand.

Tehsin sahib said;
((Despite your best efforts to explain this to the chowk public (me) it will never work)))

Believe me i have never wanted to work because if i wanted so i could have manipulated these ideas like many other bigots(religious or irreligious) on chowk or somewhere else.

#36 Posted by TehsinA on April 30, 2009 4:58:24 am
((((The way I think about it, is from a historical perspective))))

The problem with applying a Historical approach without having any methodology and all-inclusive view of reality to back it is,that,the socio-political events and their implications on the society as whole prove or disprove nothing.Unless you are clear about the distinction b/w Reference and Reduction of the intellectual activity in the socio-political events it would lead u nowhere.What u have doing is ,referring to the political and social events in which certain tendencies emerge or take a certain form and shape.Reference,however, can provide an instinctual intellectual compass to judge any intellectual development because of its being based on the preconceived notions and the prejudices of the perceiver.But the difference between Origin of Insight and the content is of much profundity than it seems at first sight.

On the other hand , in order to trace the psycho-sociogenesis of the Religion you have to be aware of the implications of the Reductionist approach and the Paradoxes that we have to face in that case for if we separate the Origin of an insight and the content it would remain merely a reference which proves nothing and on the other hand if we consider them interconnected we have to reduce all the possible of entities of our thinking which would
subsequently explode the entire structure of science and language absolutely meaningless.

Because we can't be selective in matter of Reductionism.So the argument from Historical events is fallacious on more grounds than one.If you have properly grasped whatever i have said earlier you can understand the context i was raising the question of the alleged "Apologetic Approach" in the context of the "Real Islam". Because formal categories along with the "Reference of Historical events" provide an instinctual intellectual compass to the anti-Islam or for that matter any Orientalist image of Islam.No wonder it wasn't touched even by the people who use this terminology as a convenient rhetorical rebuttal to reject
any alternative islamic view which doesn't suit to their bigoted mind.

Tehsin sahib said;

(((BECAUSE as Plato eloquently describes in his dialogue Parmenides – at absolute unity or infinite diversity you enter the realm of the Gods and everything becomes gibberish – UNKNOWABLE))))

Good God......this is the first time in have heard something like that with reference to Platonic thought.The Agnosticism that you are talking about here has radically different meaning and implications that you perceiving.Everybody(even a layman) knows that Plato was
not an Atheist. Arguably the greatest philosopher of all time Immanuel Kant is "Agnostic" in a certain Epistemological framework but ironically this Agnosticism provides the pre-requisite for his believe in God.I have already discussed this issue on chowk.I will try to find that post and will post it for your consideration sometimes later.

This is not the end and we will continue to discuss these issues provided the time and the space.We will find some Old article and would interact there without the fear of being interupted by Hamidm2.As i have already said i like your sincerety that's why i have been responding to your posts.I'm always ready to learn.

Regards.

see here is the problem ... we end up going at each other ... this is the best we can do .. remindes me of a line by russel peters "you are stone throw from each other".

experience tells you that if you are a train someone, do not tell him all the tricks. that is your security !!!talibans were trained to max to flush out russia and then no one cared what they were doing afterwards. pakistan supported,trained,managed ... you name it. Hameed Gul said on national geographic "how can you kill the talibans? you have to kill the whole country" he was the head of ISI so I am sure he is not making that up !!!

I do not blame ISI, they will never go against Pakistan, they do what is must to protect it. even if they have to make some raw deals as well. we helped talibans, supported them and then after 9/11 when musharaf got that call from US General, he could have played it cool saying "Mr. it's 2am in the morning, let me call up my senate tomorrow or in a day or 2 and we shall put a plan togather on how to deal with it", instead he wet his (with respect) pants and ordered an offensive for which we are paying to date.

the planning was wrong, too much time was given to taliban and then daily on the news "we are coming to afghanistan", that was stupid, that gave them time to leave easily and perish and the dilemma that we could neither support nor oppose the talibans cause they were our friends !!! so we kept our eyes closed on the border with afghanistan till they come knocking in our cities.

the role of Mr. Qazi & Fazal-ul-Rahman was on top during this time. irony that the "jihad" they refer to is the least of the 3 categories of Jihad. Jihad-e-Akbar is the one which is done against yourself from witin and "blowing yourself up" for Jihad actually falls in 3rd place.

Commercial mullas are everywhere on TV mocking the religion and everyone without thinking or understanding going "wah wah !!! Subhan Allah", one must not forget the blunder one popular molana sb. did with reference to Hazrat Ali and everything was on fire !!! a "Readymade" presenter did a "special" on local channel about Ahmadis and next day, 6 were murdered,in broad day light cause the molana on that program said "yes it's legal to kill a non-believer".these are the people we look forward to lead us?

when first bomber hit the army bus in pindi, there was a major who got hurt badly and he was husband of my sis-in-law's friend. he stayed alive for a week and his words really shake you up, "I joined army thinking to save this country and it's people and now I am dying for it but I am glad I am dying cause i do not want to live after what I have come to know!!!after the blast when me and others lay injured, people rush to pick our pockets, valets and cellphones and no one came for the purpose of helping us. I am so ashamed I wasted my time and now life for this country !!!", unity faith discipline ... figures !!!!

how can you be united when openly a shia calls a sunni kafir !!! on TV !!! in the news !! on the walls .. in the mosques !!! you pick a place !!! and sunnis replying the same ... diobandis has problem with all !!! then brailwis !!! Bohris, Islamilies & Agha Khanis. when there is nothing to play with ... let's kill Ahmadis or qadyanis as they call them. 'cause we are getting bored !!! we say mosque is home of Allah and then we put plates outside saying "certain sects cannot pray in this mosque" !!!!

we judge whoever we like to, whenever we want and then we say "only Allah can judge me".tell me this is not hypocracy?. How can you declare yourself a "jannati" when you make other suffer and it has no end.

what are you going to do? who is going to help us when we are at each other's throat ready to kill !!! ask yourself that.

we have lost the way and now we are helpless spectators .... Jews wait for david to come save them and we are waiting for Jesus to come and do the same !!! we will not make any effort cause they will handle it all !!!

I don't care who comes when, All I want is that my child should wake up happy everyday without any fear and suffering. period.

or is that too much to ask?

#42 Posted by philosopher


Yes I had read this piece of yours on another board and found it to be incredibly complex especially because of your extensive use of philosophical terminology which does not hold as much meaning to me as you are trying to convey. At the very end of the piece you acknowledge the “incredibly complex intellectual issues�. You finally blame it on being lazy, but please take this from me as a challenge. Despite your best efforts to explain this to the chowk public (me) it will never work BECAUSE as Plato eloquently describes in his dialogue Parmenides – at absolute unity or infinite diversity you enter the realm of the Gods and everything becomes gibberish – UNKNOWABLE.

Tehsin sahib
I didn't mean to be rude.It was just an example.anyways...
read this
http://www.chowk.com/unplugged/t/67630

this is what i wrote on the methodological exposition of the political Islam.one post can't cover this complex issue but u can have a hint of my views on this.

See ya tomorrow.

This Board seems to be exhausted so why dont we move our discussion to a new one. When I see you on another Board I will try to reconnect. Thanks!

#38 Posted by philosopher


Philosopher Sahib

“Imagine if i callange Tiger Woods on his Golf technique,how would he "explain" it to ME.�

I acknowledged my lack of knowledge in your field of philosophical methodology in the second sentence of my post and even hoped that somebody else in the community who was more well versed would take you up on it. But I do bring something to the table, I am an avid student of history and believe it to be an even more relevant subject to the debate at hand.

I think there is a fundamental confusion here and that is what seems to be moving the debate on parallel planes without actually connecting. What I am talking about is political Islam a way to set up an Islamic state. My protagonists are discussing Islam from the point of view of achieving salvation, about prayer and connection with the Al Mighty. I have no problem with how you wish to pray or achieve salvation that I very much admire in Islam where it is just an individual’s connection with God sans intermediaries. It is just political Islam which is threatening Ummah in to the Stone Age and is the central problem that needs resolution.

As far as my name change, that is just simple mundane issues. I had forgotten my password and despite trying for several weeks never got an email from chowk to have the password changed, so ended up setting up a new user name that is all. With regards to your field of Philosophy, I have expressed my ignorance about methodology but not of philosophers. I am absolutely enamored by Platonic and Aristotelian thought and would take on “Mr. Tiger Woods� any time.

#37 Posted by seekers14

This is absolutely preposterous. The Taliban anytime I have seen their news conferences invite anyone to please challenge them about what they are doing. They claim that if anything they are doing is contrary to or not in accordance with Quran and Sunnah then they would be happy to change their ways, because their main aim is to establish true Islam. I don’t blame you to be an armchair, cyber warrior like me but please have the intellectual honesty to at least refute them through solid proofs so that they can mend their evil ways.

Just by saying “"More they recite Qurran more they would gumrrah"
"They recite Qurran and Allah cast lanat on them"
Taliban are not following Allah's Qurran and shariah and Rasool Allah(SAWW) sunnah.
they are following the Qurran,shariah and sunnah of their own nafs.That is a shirk baatini,which put them into hell.’


What makes you judge and jury? Who are you to decide who will go to heaven or hell? By even making such an assertion arent you becoming God and isnt this the greatest shirk? You say the Taliban’s baatin is not clean, but who are you to judge?

Re: # 36tehsin
we have already discussed these issue a couple of years back and i explained it to ur non-technical mind in as much understandable manner as i could.U r a decent person and i have no beef against u.But one thing i know for sure that no matter how "sincere" u r in ur "intellectual" pursuites, u r completly unaware of the technichalities and the methodologies to analyse these issues.Because of Your complete lack of understanding of the various dimensions of these philosophical issues u r absolutly clueless of the philosophical implications of what u r talking about.Most of them implies exactly opposite to ur claim at the higher philosophical level.

If i go on to refute ur assertions i would have to start from the fundamentals of philosophy and logic.
Imagine if i callange Tiger Woods on his Golf technique,how would he "explain" it to ME.
Anyways..its good to see u back in action.Well i wonder why u have changed ur last name from Abbassi to just A?

Regards

Re: # 34
I want to let you know the meaning of ALIF LAAM MEEM!
But i have not permission,may this because of your "zarf"
You can't bear this.
Nobody can do ibadat more than shitan,who's one prostration is more than thousand years.But Allah give him NO EXCUSE and would must put him in hell on just not doing the SAJDAH(which you and taliban believe shirk).
In Qurran Allah is saying "More they recite Qurran more they would gumrrah"
"They recite Qurran and Allah cast lanat on them"
Taliban are not following Allah's Qurran and shariah and Rasool Allah(SAWW) sunnah.
they are following the Qurran,shariah and sunnah of their own nafs.That is a shirk baatini,which put them into hell.
example of shitan is leasson for people that ibadat has not merit of acceptance without Maarifat.

#30 Posted by philosopher

I was hoping that somebody else would take the mantle to answer you but it seems like nobody has taken the bait. I don’t feel that I have the philosophical training to answer your methodology questions in the context you have laid down.

The way I think about it, is from a historical perspective. When the Mutazalites challenged Islam this sort of deliberate misinformation, circular arguments, creating fog was used to maximum effect. The libraries in Qum, Cairo and Damascus etc. are full of treatises and manuscripts challenging Aristotelian logic, Platonic thought and all other rational literature. Even now new ambitious aalim wanabees continue to produce more of the same stuff. But all these writings just sit there gathering dust as they do not contribute any thing to human knowledge; they are only there to prove the futility of human endeavor to learn anything through rational thought.

Thank God! For the internet, for search engines, for simple understandable Qurans these are the tools that will finally lift the fog. So please enlist your services in the cause of knowledge and its dissipation rather then being an agent of confusion.

Re: # 30
phil...
real islam in three contexts...
a. where muslas are more than 55%- impose Koranic verses to wipe out non-muslas/civilised people....

b. where muslas are very few- pose muslaism/islam as civilised concept and try to bluff and cheat....

c. where muslas are more than 3%-5%- constantly demand for arabic stuff....facility for animal slaughtering in arabic way...place to shout in arabic and create trouble for others....

#32 Posted by seekers14

You mentioned the verse following Alif Laam Meem, but didn’t give the meaning of these letters.

So according to you our hearts are sealed, mine as well as the Talibans. While they gladly, unquestioningly and believingly with complete faith and fortitude give their lives in the cause of shariat, Quran and Sunnah, you claim that Allah in his infinite wisdom would throw them into hell fires? In other words intent (niyat) is of no consequence to him? Tell me what is the point for Allah to then create, put down on this earth people with “sealed hearts� who have no hope for redemption? They are condemned from birth.

There are reports that Taliban militants have shaved four young men for listening to music in Buner, An area of Yousafzai Pashtun adjacent with the restive Swat of Pashtunkhwa. When secular ANP signed a peace treaty with the Sufi Muhammad of TNSM , which is mass front of Taliban militants and Sufi himself is the father in law of the Chief of militants in Swat Fazlullah and he had taken more than 10000 men to Afghanistan to fight against the international community there who had come to wipe up the militants Taliban from there after the America was targeted in 2001. Most of his men were either slaughtered or perished on the way but interestingly Sufi and his few clever colleagues found the way out and appeared in Kurram Agency from where they were taken to Dera Ismail Khan and he remained ther for few years waiting that Pashtun would soon forget their sentimental kins and kiths butchered by the said man. When he was needed by the establishment in 2008 then he was released and a new role was assigned to him to add to problems of the innocent Pashtun. Now once again Pashtun in Malakand division are suffered due to this man but sorry to say that this time secular ANP joined hands with him for unknown reasons.These criminals,thugs known as Taliban must be crushed before they crush entire Pakistan.

Re: # 29

ALIF LAAM MEEM THAT IS A BOOK WHICH HAS HADAYAT FOR MUTAQEEN WHO BELIEVE IN GHAEIB.

One who not even find or discover ALIF LAAM MEEM,would never get hadayat,never they would be mutaqeeh nor they have belief in Gahaib.
This is a very first message for readers.if you don't understand that than Quran would never be worth for you even you hifz or recite millions time.

This is just like that Allah says that shitan WAS in between KAFIR,even he had being praying thousand of years ibadat and sajood.

Their is no hidayat in Qurran for "sealed hearts"

You guys can get any type of Islam; interpret the Holy Qurran any way you want...but please dont destroy your arts.

Islamic civilsations have given humanity its greatest artists, poets, singers, muscians, architects etc etc...taliban's greatest sin is that they are destroying your arts.

What if people like Zakir Hussein & all the great classical artists of hindustani music were living in Swat today?