What's Wrong With Imran Khan?

Re: # 266 Tahmed: I would agree to your observations.

But it is upon the present day Indians to see value in what the Brits left. The Brits did not leave anything with an intention or deliberately, it was just a side-effect. But that they took was with clear intentions and it was material and money.

majumdar #267 while Sir Syed was reviled in his time by the maulvis, he has always been a respected figure in Pakistan for as long as I can remember. There are schools named after him, e.g. While no one remembers the ignorant maulvis who did so much damage to muslims in the 19th century by discouraging them from getting an education, Sir Syed is probably the most prominent Indian muslim of that century.

#270 however, the dark curse of hindu extremism covers too many indians to this day. including you, when you draw this absurd black-white distinction between muslim rulers vs hindu rulers.

#266

Right, you can correctly say, suddenly the dark curse or
veil that fell on India starting early 8th century was
lifted.

Re: # 266tahmed...VERY TRUE...........

Imran Khan the commander-in-chief of Taliban, supports and advocate Taliban justice so proudly.Is there any difference between Imran Khan and the illutrate man who supports Taliban. He is behaving like the street person who has no knowledge of politics.

Can such a man lead a party or a country?

Tahmed sahib,

Re: 266

There is a strong element of truth about what you write. The funniest part is that the one 19th century Mussalman (Sir Syed) who tried to replicate what many Hindoo leaders did for their community is reviled as a murtidoon, kaffiroon, slave of the West etc although a lawyer friend of mine once observed that these guys who were busy reviling Sir Syed wud prolly be lying in the gutters if the man wasnt around.

Regards

While the brits, particularly under the East India Company, took too wealth out of the subcontinent (raw materials, jewels), it created wealth of a far more value into the subcontinent as well. This wealth is the spread of education in the arts and science - which created the middle class, which in turn replaced kingships with a democracy, and primitive cultures into modern ones. Hindus recognized this "intellectual capital" for what it was, while muslims (in their arrogance as being "former rulers" as promoted by the chaprasis of the muslim kings, the mullahs) chose not to benefit as much.

Re: # 187 Riaz: "India would have been very fragmented and quite weak, if the Brits would not have come in".

Many possibilities but at least the wealth of India would not have been exported to Britain for over 2 centuries. It would have been more like the present Europe, multiple smaller countries. Rich or poor, strong or weak; cannot say but the transition from the kingship to the democratic / secular setup may not have possible. The kings (both hindu or muslims) would not have given up power easily.

In a way I agree to your statement. The Brits united the parts that could become as one unit in the mainland while entering this region. And while going they removed the Pakistan and Bangladesh (than Pakistan).

Re: # 187 Riaz - "Don't forget Jinnah was a much a nationalist as any other Indian politician and president of Indian National Congress. His disillusionment with Nehru caused him to leave Congress and join Muslim League".

Jinnah and the muslim leadership had the mindset of the pre-colonial days when the power was with the moghuls (muslims). It was not a matter of disillusionment but a case of realisation that the sole power/priviledge to rule the country had slipped out of the hands of a few muslim elites and would be governed by the democratic process and decided by the masses. Jinnah found it too tedious to slug it out and clash with Nehru to win over the masses and reach the prime minstership of undivided India. He decided to use the short-cut by creating a consituency for himself and jumped on to the TNT.

Re: # 196 - "The Sword was used millions of times against my hindu fore fathers by the Islami goons.

Laddu: Your Thook'ing and Riaz's justification will not undo or rewrite the past. It is unfortunate that the Pakis derive pleasure and people like Laddu feel the pain recalling the same events of the past. And that is the real reason for the conflicts even till date.

But Laddu you also need to understand that Putting to sword or conversion was the order of the day in those times. The Hindus did a remarkable job of surviving in those times but are equally responsible for failing to protect themselves as they were disunited and often invited the invaders or sided with them while settling petty local scores. The local Rajputs also had strange beliefs of chivalorous war conducts and codes such as not to attack after dark or to spare the life (e.g. Mohmad Ghori), which were restrictive on themselves, rather than aimed ay winning the war. Many of these outdated war tactics / weaknesses were responsible for the defeats, and were at times shared by the disgruntled locals leading to the defeats. The invaders were highly motivated by religious fervor, and employed all tricks and deciet to win the war, as they needed money for their survival in the tough Afghan and Central Asian countries. On the same point the Pakis also need to understand that none of the invadors in the 1000+ year history were from the Pakistan area but were afghans or the central asians or turks or Mongloids etc. The than Indian (including present day pakistan) kings and local population were at the recieving end equally. I see it strange how the Pakistanis hero worship their own invadors just because they happened to be of the same religion, or feel happy at the defeat of their local king (Dahir) just because he was of a differnet religion. I fail to understand if they have first preference for the religion or the region.

Re: # 190 Riaz: "the Muslim invaders did nothing to spread Islam in India" ....

How pious of the muslims in those days. Even today the Muslims where ever they are in majority or in rule want to extend the generosity of the Islamic beliefs.

Ask the Sikhs who have been asked to pay Jizia of 2 crores by the Talibans. In fact the religious books of the Sikhs are full of the Mughal intolerance and torture that lead to their adoption of martial ethics to resist the moghals.

Same with the Kashimir, after about 100 years later Riaz's great-grandsons would be mouthing that the Kashmiri muslims did nothing to make Kashmir as fully Islamic.

Re: # 226 Riaz: "India gets far more international aid than Pakistan"

Riaz, While you are informed of the facts, but you miss the intrepretation behind them.

The USA has the biggest debt on the earth, $10 trillion plus, but still the world over is willing to give more to the USA. The same is true for India although on a smaller scale. For Pakistan it is the reverse. Even though it is asking explicitly, but nobody including its friends are willing to lend it money.

So dont just compare numbers like a first grader, see the willingness and conditions attached behind them.

#258 by SPY

What are we talking....India has promised to increase its quota to provide $10 billion to IMF this year.

SPY yaar, when the head is buried deep inside the rear (as Riaz mian's is), facts are nothing more than minor irritants, best when ignored.

Re: # 242 Riaz: "Have you heard about Pukhtunwali, the tribal tradition of protecting your guest at all costs?"

While it may be true for some but the reverse is also equally true. The statment of the US general is also equally true, and he is not the first one to make that observation. The people in that part of the world are so corrupt and money minded that they can do anything for it.

But the same cannot be said for the Jews, Sikhs, Parsis, Jains etc.

Re: # 241(Harish), 228 (Riaz),

What are we talking....India has promised to increase its quota to provide $10 billion to IMF this year.

Re: # 234: "India banega Pakistan"

Masadi, what are your thoughts behind that...Let me try to understand it explicitly.

- Pakistan will overpower India and enforce its writ on the whole of India (huh...not possible)
- India will also go down the drain and become as chaotic, unstable as Pakistan. (Quite possible if we do not gaurd ourselves or repeat the same mistake as the Pakis.)

There are many more intrepretations of your statement, but believe me no Indian would be happy at this prospect.

Either way your thoughts are very hurting...and can be summarised as ...Hum to doobe hain sanam..tuko bhi le doobenge.

Cheer up man, things are bad nowadays for Pakistan but that does not mean that you start seeing bad everywhere. Situation will improve.

first of all divorce is not a sacrifice. but he has no problem whatsoever to be with her in UK while she is having fling with hugh grant!!!

2ndly, he is not cut out for pakistani politics,he is the lone holder of a seat in the parliment. he does not have any political ideology that is why no one takes him seriously.

Re: # 254

bhs75 - he sacrificed his family to save Pakistan. It was not a falling apart but he parted since he preferred to live in Pakistan and Jemima wanted to move back and settle in UK on permanent basis. We should appreciate his love and sacrifices for Pakistan. Otherwise, he had a chance to live like a icon and celebrity for rest of his life had he not entered in politics with aim to bring the much needed change.

All I know is this, if one failed to save his family from falling apart, how will he hold a country togather? ... I rest my case.

Re: # 251: "should we like minded not go out and join him? If he has no support from intelligentia, then he has to strive with some Omar Cheema and discarded cadre of Jamat e islami like of som Aijaz CH. as VP and some Mian Mehmood-ur-Rashid as the president of PTI Lahore."

Saif,
If I was in Pakistan, I probably would consider your advice seriously, just to help him stay away from the company he currently keeps. But I'm not sure I'd be successful in that. But I do support his causes by attending his fundraisers here in the US and regularly donating to his foundation.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Hasan Shakoor

I am sorry to see that you did not bother to reply to my post at #35. Should I assume that you had no answer for that?

It is perhaps stating the obvious that Imran Khan, for all his 'modernity', is ethnically a 'Pathan', whom a friend of mine used to call 'The Sikhs of Muslims' and the Talibanism is its wannabee form is showing its real ethnic pinch now in Karachi to pose danger for the survival of MQM or at least its suzerainty in that city .

Re: # 240

RiazHaq - should we like minded not go out and join him? If he has no support from intelligentia, then he has to strive with some Omar Cheema and discarded cadre of Jamat e islami like of som Aijaz CH. as VP and some Mian Mehmood-ur-Rashid as the president of PTI Lahore. It is time that learned people like you work with him to bring a democratic peaceful revolution by winning next elections. Otherwise, people will lose hope and look forward for some Imam Mehdi or Imam Khomeini or Mulla Omar to be their Messiah.

Re: # 247

Your nonsense is nothing but an attempt to divide Pakistanis. It will not work. In spite of the occasional ethnic violence, most Pakistanis get along fine. Most of my closest friends are not from my ethnic group...but they are closer to me than my close relatives. The real battle in Pakistan is for the future direction of the country between the religious extreme right and the rest of the Pakistani people who want a modern progressive Pakistan.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 247
....and the donation boxes associated with mosque in IslamaBad, Lahore and Karachi, filled with money to support jihad is simply act of civility......

Re: # 245
Riaz...
Yeh, we know how you Pakis treat a guest (!!!!),specialy when he is famous terrorist/islamist....BTW, does the same rule apply for UN aid workers in Pakistan?

#246 by RiazHaq

OK, let's just humor for a second and agree on Osama. But what about dozens of others? Why don't people turn them in for millions of dollars?

Riaz mian, I almost feel disinclined to answer your questions given how naive you seem, but here's one last attempt.

The Pushtuns (and perhaps the Baloch too) are the only ones amongst Pakis with some degree of self-respect. The Paki who set Pakistan on this irreversible path of Islamism was Zia-ul-Haq (a Punjabi from Jalandhar?) and the man who sold countless Pakis for a few thousand dollars each is a Mohajir. And collectively, these two communities have run Pakistan to the ground.

Left to a Punju or a Mohajir, Osama or the Taliban honchos would have long been handed over to the Americans.

Re: # 243 "the reason Osama hasn't been found is that he is the golden goose."

OK, let's just humor for a second and agree on Osama. But what about dozens of others? Why don't people turn them in for millions of dollars?
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 243: "Umm...OK, didn't know all Pakis were Pushtuns. Thanks for letting us know. But I'm sure the real Pushtuns would be furious if they came to know what you're doing."

Only a deluded Indian would believe such nonsense. Who do you think rules NWFP? How do you think they got elected in Pakistani elections? Do you think Asfandyar Wali is not a real Pushtun or a real Pakistani? Why does he sit in Pakistani parliament? Where is the biggest Pushtun city in the world?

Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

if they came to know what you're saying.

#242 by RiazHaq

Is that why millions of dollars worth of bounty on the heads of bin Laden, Mullah Omar, Mehsud and others has not worked?

Riaz mian, the reason Osama hasn't been found is that he is the golden goose. Even a duffer like you should have been able to understand that if you tried to.

Have you heard about Pukhtunwali, the tribal tradition of protecting your guest at all costs? Apparently not.

Umm...OK, didn't know all Pakis were Pushtuns. Thanks for letting us know. But I'm sure the real Pushtuns would be furious if they came to know what you're doing.

Clearly, ignorance is as big a problem as stupidity. Both hurts you more than others.

No wonder you have the audacity to think of India and Pakistan in the same league. Even the US now has put Pakistan and Afghanistan in the same bracket, but not Pakis whose thoughts are still frozen in the 60s when Pakistan seemed ahead of India.

Re: # 241: "US General said would actually sell their mothers for a few dollars."

Is that why millions of dollars worth of bounty on the heads of bin Laden, Mullah Omar, Mehsud and others has not worked?
Have you heard about Pukhtunwali, the tribal tradition of protecting your guest at all costs? Apparently not. You and this US General are equally ignorant. Clearly, ignorance is as big a problem as stupidity. Both hurts you more than others.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

#228 by RiazHaq

So you're begging for more aid? Because you are a bigger beggar?

Riaz mian, that was YOUR assertion. That India gets more aid. So if it was worked out on a per capita basis, India actually gets much less aid compared to Pakis. Pakis, asthe US General said would actually sell their mothers for a few dollars. Could someone have dared to make such a statement against any other race on the whole wide planet?

Re: # 236
Saifullah,
I share your positive feelings about Imran. He's a very sincere man with good intentions who is practically helping a lot of very unfortunate Pakistanis and setting a good example of public and social service for others. However, I do have concerns about his judgment and the company he keeps. He needs to understand the consequences of a potential Taliban takeover and balance those against other still imperfect but better alternatives.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

#236 if imran khan had a brain as well, that would have been icing on the cake.

#236 if imran khan had a brain as well, that would have been icing on the cake.

RiazPakAlumnidWorldWide-wale

(a) "Instead of wasting your energy and my time on this ridiculous debate, go learn something that'll help you become better informed, possibly a better human being as well."

(b) "You can continue worshiping cows, monkeys and stones, spray heeng and drink cow pee and relieve youself at the RR tracks, it's your business. But it doesn't change any of the facts about what a lousy job your Hindu leadership has done relative to the Mughals."

* We need to build more mausoleums!

You're good value for money Riaz!

Imran Khan is an honest politician; a rare breed. Will he be successful in a corrupt society of hypocrites? No; this nation does not deserve a Statesman like Imran Khan. The Nation is a loser; not Imran Khan. He has already achieved all the heights in his life. PM seat is a very small target for him and could have achieved it even before the ShortCut Aziz, if he was not a honest person who would never compromise on principles.

Hasan

I was being carried away by your forceful criticism of Imran Khan till I reached the following:

"I am wondering what form of "village jury" you would like to see flourish in Pakistan? The kind that sanctioned the gang rape of Mukhtar Mai"

Btw, will you tell us what the so called judiciary did in this case. The trial court sentenced six of the accused poor Mastoies to death. The Multan High Court quashed the judgment and passed a strong stricture against the trial court for awarding such a serious punishment without any evidence. And what the Hon. CJ, Iftikhar, did. He took a suo mottu action to put a lid on the case, resulting in incarceration of the poor Mastoies for years together without any charge having been proved against them so far.

My God: This is the justice you are pleading for?

Alumni WW has won a few rounds against the Hindu bigots but he is walking a fine line crossing into their type of bigotry at times. Watch it WW, you don't want the morons to turn you into a moron...And don't deride India man, don't you know one of these days India banega Pakistan : ) lol

TNITC masadi

calm down laddu,

a few million jews keep millions of muslims in line in the middle east. numbers mean squat..you can be rest assured our grandsons will keep their prepuce intact...smegma an' all..

For Muslim-haters hyperventilating on Chowk, here's more:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-3X5hIFXYU
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

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Re: # 219

"You can continue worshiping cows, monkeys and stones, spray heeng and drink cow pee and relieve youself at the RR tracks, it's your business."

And you can continue to bang your head 5 times a day while farting, drinking camel piss and using pebbles to clean your arse any where, it is your business.

But if you send your jehadis kuttas to india or else where or if your try to spread your cult of hate any where - you would get it back in same coin.

Riaz ul Haq is a bigot, a closet Islamist and should be thrown back to his mullahistan.

We must report to the FBI and other American Nationalists about his activities.

Re: # 227 "Do you realize that India is 7 times the size of Pakistan? So unless you have the figures that show that India receives 7 times of what Pakistan receives, you won't be able to prove your assertion, you're fooling no one except yourselves."

So you're begging for more aid? Because you are a bigger beggar?
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Riaz mian, now I'm convinced that the PakAlumni Worldwide is nothing but a collection of Paki nuts. Do you realize that India is 7 times the size of Pakistan? So unless you have the figures that show that India receives 7 times of what Pakistan receives, you won't be able to prove your assertion, you're fooling no one except yourselves.

Re: # 225 "You guys are begging everyone who can throw a dollar at your face. What does that say about you? "

India gets far more international aid than Pakistan. Go check your facts. In spite of all of the recent news about aid to Pakistan dominating the media, the fact remains that resurgent India has received more foreign aid than any other developing nation since the end of World War II--estimated at almost $100 billion since the beginning of its First Five-Year Plan in 1951. And yet, according to economist Amartya Sen, who won the Nobel Prize for his work on hunger, India has fared worse than any other country in the world at preventing recurring hunger.


Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

#217 by RiazHaq

But it doesn't change any of the facts about what a lousy job your Hindu leadership has done relative to the Mughals

And what about the Paki leadership? You guys are begging everyone who can throw a dollar at your face. What does that say about you?

further to #222

tahmed sahib:

You made me believe that I had called urstruly a terrorist; I went back to my posts and noticed that I did not call him a terrorist. My statement, in fact, was "Why should I call urstruly a terrorist?" I was merely associating him with the ideology of those who were being killed.

Re: # 152 Tahmed

Been waiting at Wagah as you suggested for a day now - nothing but hearing grass grow and the odd Paki soldier walking around in a lungi off in the distance using neem twigs with a lota. I can hardly take a minute more of this nonsense. I feel like wearing a Paki-flag on a T-shirt and riding off to where the action is!

The local Indian Army Gorkha and Sikh commanders say that they could join me in a hurry.

tahmed32:

You are right, I should have used quotation marks with the term "terrorist".

As regards my objection, it was to the celebratory tone about the tragedy; kids who died in the military action are victims of an ideology which, according to you, is a perversion of Islam. In some cases, it may not even be that as their families may have been forced to part with them or face the death of the entire family.

Re: # 219

Riaz - OK enough talk about India, China, Mughals etc. Now, go pick up a gun and fight the taliban. Or pick up the gun and fight with the Pak army if you are one of the Taliban.

Re: # 219 Riaz
[...So be happy in your Hindu paradise...]

Thanks man... and good luck on re-creating "mughal paradise" in pakiland... LOL

Re: # 218

You can continue worshiping cows, monkeys and stones, spray heeng and drink cow pee and relieve youself at the RR tracks, it's your business. But it doesn't change any of the facts about what a lousy job your Hindu leadership has done relative to the Mughals. Notwithstanding all the hype, most of your countrymen remain poor ad hungry. A fifth of humanity produces only about 2.5% of the world GDP. Your denials of these facs just make you look even more ridiculous than you really are. So be happy in your Hindu paradise. Anything better is beyond your limited imagination.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Riaz - Look, you being a paki worship the all kinds of bedouin "ancestors" of yours, even though they violated your own people... but we understand that as a requirement of the bedouin religion you follow...

WHile you trumpet the mythical "mughal paradise" - bhindoos have their own mythical "paradise" to trumpet as well... Ashoka, Mauryas and what not - they apparently set up paradise on earth much before muhgals, when mughals were still swinging from the tree... they ruled from afgan to srilanka and they rules your asses too...

So are you going to submit to a re-incarnated bhindoo-buddhist Ashoka rule from Patna? because that paradise was even better than the mughal paradise.... LOL

do you have the balls to confront the truth about your Islami-heroes??

Re: # 213

BS, you do not want to read my posts. You have full Islami-blinkes on your eyes.

I AM QUOTING FROM primary sources of your ISLAMI heroes like qasim, Taimur et al.

I did not add a bit to it.

THESE ARE THEIR WORDS.

This is REAL HISTORY- not a contrived one like PAk Studies.

#112 by RiazHaq

Or you are simply ignorant of what has been happening in Pakistan. It's now just as stinking a democracy as India, with corrupt and inefficient politicians in charge. That's what you get when you have an ignorant electorate.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide.

Blah blah blah!!! Bottomline? India is seen as a rising superpower that every major power is eager to do business with and Pakistan is seen as the world's biggest headache.

#130 by tahmed32

pakis are really scared of the single pasli indoos. particularly when they put that dot on their forehead.

Nope. Tiger Niazi was merely being gentlemanly when he instructed his 93000 compatriots to lay down their arms and signed the instrument of surrender on that winter morning at Dhaka in 1971.

Re: # 210

All real historians and scholars have rejected your "Hindutva" version of history, as demonstrated by a lengthy battle about California text books. Hindu Education Foundation and Vedic Foundation were completely isolated and opposed by real historians from top universities, including most South Asian scholars and historians. It's time that you recognize the trash you're spamming on this forum as real history. Your saying so ain't gonna change nothing. Instead of wasting your energy and my time on this ridiculous debate, go learn something that'll help you become better informed, possibly a better human being as well.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

It is the propagandist thugs like Riaz-ul-Haq who are going to be consigned to the dustbin of history!!

Re: # 209

HP ji,

Indeed, the fact that you recognize this as a "misdeed" and people like Riaz eulogize an celebrate is the major difference.

I know, any one could quote Bible or Gita to justify what these Islami thugs like Taimur et al did in the past.

The difference between a civilized Pakistani and an un-civilized like Riaz-ul-Haq is in precisely this perception.

BS Riaz,

You think dhimmized reading of moghul history that 'praises' your forefathers is the correct one??

Soon,Your supremacism is going to be consigned to the dustbin with all those heroes that you praise!!

This is my prediction.

Taimur has in his Memoir explained what led him to invade India. He says:
" My object in the invasions of Hindustan is to lead a campaign against the infidels, to convert them to the true faith according to the command of Muhammad (on whom and his family be the blessing and peace of God), to purify the land from the defilement of misbelief and polytheism, and overthrow the temples and idols, whereby we shall be Ghazis and Mujahids, companions and soldiers of the faith before God. "

Pundit Laddu Maharaj,

Compare this word for word with the rationale President Bush in 2003 so ineloquently presented to the world.
He wanted to provide democracy to the Iraqi people, educate them and take care of the ruthless dictator. In Afghanistan he claimed that US will help with women liberation and equal rights to women.

Every invader develops a rationale for misdeed.
Taimur was less educated so he developed a rationale that his people could understand. The real purpose was still to loot as much wealth out of India as posssible. President Bush's only desire in Iraq was to control the lifeline of the US economy, the oil. Bush destroyed the most secular country in the Middle east and now that country is an Islamic Republic with draconian laws against women. Afghanistan under the US control just passed a law that allows for marital rapes but the US has no problem with that.

Re: # 207

What you are talking about is not history, just your unadulterated bigotry crammed into your little head by the BJP's revisionist curriculum. No amount of spam by you is going to change that.

The right-wing Hindu activists in California tried to pull what you are doing here to falsify Indian history taught here. Needless to say, their attempts failed miserably, thanks to the combined efforts of sane Indians and their Muslim friends backed by American historians. You can read about it at http://www.friendsofsouthasia.org/textbook/

Your spam will be consigned to the same dustbin of history as the attempts by your ilk in California.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Riaz ul Haq do you want more REAL HISTORY??

Re: # 193

Re#193 Posted by anil on April 30, 2009 5:23:31 pm
Anil miaN, you need to get that “romantic� chashma out of your eyes! Jinnah was no hero – he was a “sophisticated� bigot – which is the worst kind of bigot. Nobody abandoned Jinnah – it was HE who abandoned his motherland and did it grievous damage which goes on till this day. The man was an embodiment of the worst stereotypes that is attributed to lawyers. He had no heart and he had no soul. Pakistan will never recover into a healthy place unless and until its people can learn to exorcise the ghost of that man!

This is what your hero Taimur says and you have followed his teachings till today in PAkistan- creating Mujahidin KUTTAS who are now biting you back.

Taimur has in his Memoir explained what led him to invade India. He says:
" My object in the invasions of Hindustan is to lead a campaign against the infidels, to convert them to the true faith according to the command of Muhammad (on whom and his family be the blessing and peace of God), to purify the land from the defilement of misbelief and polytheism, and overthrow the temples and idols, whereby we shall be Ghazis and Mujahids, companions and soldiers of the faith before God. "

Here is what your hero Qasim says ..and he quotes the right Quranic verse as well.

This is REAL HISTORY and not the sugar coated propaganda that you are trying to feed to us hindus-

"I shall defeat and degrade you, and ultimately take your head to Irák, or sacrifice my life in the cause of the great God. I consider it my bounden duty to carry on this religious war, in obedience to the orders of God who says in the Koran: ‘wage war against the infidels and dissemblers’;* and I have undertaken this task simply to secure divine pleasure."

Laanat hai tum par!!

Here is some more REAL HISTORY-

Here is more from Chaachnama.The Jazba-e-Jehad was truly magnificient. He even Quotes from Quran as a true Jehadi -

After taking Debal, Mu­hammad Kásim goes to Nerún.

“In the name of the most merciful and gracious God. Letter addressed by Muhammad Kásim Sakifí, the avenger of Mussal-máns, to the haughty, the rebellious, the crafty Brahmin Dáhar son of Chach, a foolish, stub­born and vainglorions infidel. This is to inform you that I have received your letter, which you have written out of excessive ignorance and folly, being led away by a weak and miserable policy, of which you have evidently become madly proud. I have acquainted myself with its contents, express and implied, and have in ormed myself of every thing that you have written relating to your power and pomp and numbers and weapons and elephants and horsemen and followers. We depend entirely upon the grace of God for power and strength, and on the favour of our sovercign for the number of our forces and for glory. ‘There is no power nor virtue but in God, the great and glorious one.* They play a trick with thee in their own way* and then they do not depend upon it. Verily I trust fully in God, who is my maintainer as well as yours.* They lay a plot for them, but God is the best layer of plots.* The plot of the wicked does not recoil except upon those that lay it.* If God wishes it, a small number of men overpowers a large number; and God is with the patient.’* You are proud of men and horses and elephants, but what are they? The biggest elephant is the weakest and most helpless of all creatures. He can­not get rid of a gnat, which is the smallest and weakest of all animals. As for horses and horsemen, whom you admire so much, they are an army of God. ‘But mind, God has many armies which are most poworful;* the league of God and its Judgments are always successful.’ As to what you say about our coming, with armies arrayed for battle, know that that is wholly the result of your wicked deeds and bad manners and vain-glory, for you seized and detained the boats conveying valuable property from Sarandeb, and made the Musalmans prisoners. All the countries of the world acknowledge the rule and superiority of the Khalífah, who is the vicegerent of the Prophet. All pay allegiance to him, while you turn your head from him and rebel against him. All the former rulers and kings regularly paid tribute to his royal treasury, while you have stopped it. As you have thus befouled yourself with ugly manners and unpleasant habits like these, and have swerved from the path of obe­dience, and have taken such bad behaviour to be un­objectionable, I have received the ever-to-be-obeyed mandate from the Khalífah to exact vengeance for those wicked deeds of yours, and to carry on war with you (to the bitter end). I do hope that, with the help of the great God, who is the most powerful of all, in whatever place you may meet us and oppose us, I shall defeat and degrade you, and ultimately take your head to Irák, or sacrifice my life in the cause of the great God. I consider it my bounden duty to carry on this religious war, in obedience to the orders of God who says in the Koran: ‘wage war against the infidels and dissemblers’;* and I have undertaken this task simply to secure divine pleasure. I expect fully from the unbounded kindness of God. that He will help us and give us victory over you, God's will be done. Written in the 73rd year.�*

"if the Muslim invaders had decided and actually used force, as was done by Christian invaders through most of history, there would be very few, if any, Hindus like you left in India."

Simple, Your Jehadi Kuttas came to India to loot, rape and enslave in the name of Islam and if every body joined the club whom would they loot, take haftas, rape and enslave??

Fact- Islam needs zimmis and kafirs to survive.

Islam needs slaves and dhimmis/zimmis because their economy is based upon rent seeking out of zimmis and looting and plunderings of kafirs.

The reason why moghuls and other muslim rulers did not convert every one by sword was primarily because of stiff idolator resistence , im practicability of doing so and finally because the surviving idolators bribed the qazis and got themselves upgraded as zimmis.

The ruled part of the indian continent was divided into small rent seeking zimmidaris and the original arabic moghuls were given the 'zimma' of keeping my idolator forefathers who thnakfully bribed their way to zimmi-hood. The zimma was valued in terms of wealth of the idolator hindus who were required to pay regularly to the moghul kings.

Those who were incapable to pay or rebelled and refused were demoted to kafirs and were immediately despatched to Allah's hell as prescribed by Quran and hadiths.

The plight of my fore fathers was written dosn as per the Quranic manual. This ping pong between being a zimmi (if you pay) and being a kafir (if you do not pay) went for long . We idolators have suffered long to know why moguls and muslims DID NOT KILL all of us.

If every idolator or zimmi becomes muslim then where would the Allah's booties, slaves and kaneezs come to the faithfuls as ordained by the Quran???

Re: # 199

Raiz-ul-haq,

I speak the truth it is time you wholly acknowledge the inhuman truth about your perverse Islami Jehad on the land of Hind.

Your heroes were the worst killers and were Jehadi kuttey.

This is what your JI Mullahs Maulana Nawabzadaa Nabiullah Khanin clearly say about spread of Islam using terror RECENTLY-

"TERRORIZATION IS THE BEST CONVERSION TOOL
After Independence, a lot of Hindus migrated to India. Yet after the migration, the Pakistani Hindu population was 15%. Do you know what is the percentage now? It is less than 1%. How was this made possible? How did the Hindus convert to Islam in a short span of 20 years whereas for 700 years they had never converted to Islam? That is purely because of the terror of the Partition.
That terror forced the Hindus who remained in Pakistan to become Muslims. Pure and simple. JI used similar techniques in Punjab and Sindh. Each time a riot breaks out in India, we had used that pretext to strike terror among the Hindus, Christians and Ahmaddiahs. The similar terror will be at the heart of every non-Muslim, both Hindu as well as Christian, in the coming years in the entire of India. PRPOHET SUCCEEDED WITH TERROR SO CAN WE Qazi is an analytical genius who knows every strategy that was used by Prophet Mohammad (PBUH) and which will be and should be used in India to achieve the total submission to Allah. "

"Jamhooria Islamia", a monthly Baluchi magazine published from Panj-gar, published an interview with Maulana Nawabzadaa Nabiullah Khanin Feb 1999, a confidant of and adviser to the Amir of leading Pakistani Islamic party, Jamaat-e-Islami, Maulana Qazi Ahmed, which was conducted by Jalil Amir.

The muslim heroes of PAkistan like Qasim etc. were nothing better than the common Jehadi kutta they are spawning in their madarassas.

These Jehadi kuttas are biting you back - now ready to stake claim over your land in the name of Umman and ready to demand nikah with your daughters!!

Allahu!!

Re: # 196

Laddu, you are an unrepentant and discredited bigot..nothing more. What you can't get through your head is that, if the Muslim invaders had decided and actually used force, as was done by Christian invaders through most of history, there would be very few, if any, Hindus like you left in India.

Stop reading the BJP doctored history. Read some real historians like Dalrymple. Read Xanadu. It'll do you some good and make you a decent human being.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Mahommad bin Qasim's first act of religious zeal was forcibly to circumcise the Brahmins of the captured city of Debul ; but on discovering that they objected to this sort of conversion, he proceeded to put all above the age of 17 to death, and to order all others, with women and children, to be led into slavery. The temple of the Hindus was looted, and the rich booty was divided equally among the soldiers, after one-fifth, the legal portion for the government, had been set aside.

Re: # 192: "Oh sh*t! If Eklavya reads that this thread is over!"

Would he prefer the threat or use of force as a means to convert? Or the incentive of money and rewards?

I am glad it was the sufi saints rather than the emperors and soldiers that did the job, without forcing the majority to abandon its faith.

In fact, South East Asians converted to Islam without any invasions at all. The Muslim traders did a pretty job there in Indonesia, Thailand and Malaysia.

Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Look at this -

"My object in the invasions of Hindustan is to lead a campaign against the infidels, to convert them to the true faith according to the command of Muhammad"

The Sword was used millions of times against my hindu fore fathers by the Islami goons.

Thook!!!

Muhammad of Ghazni also looked upon his numerous invasions of India as the waging of a holy war. Al' Utbi, the historian of Muhammad, describing his raids writes :
" He demolished idol temples and established Islam. He captured ...... cities, killed the polluted wretches, destroying the idolaters, and gratifying Muslims. ' He then returned home and promulgated accounts of the victories obtained for Islam. ....... and vowed that every year he would undertake a holy war against Hind " Mahommed Ghori was actuated by the same holy zeal in his invasions of India. Hasan Nizami, the historian, describes his work in the following terms :
" He purged by his sword the land of Hind from the filth of infidelity and vice, and freed the whole of that country from the thorn of God-plurality and the impurity of idol-worship, and by his royal vigour and intrepidity left not one temple standing
Taimur has in his Memoir explained what led him to invade India. He says:
" My object in the invasions of Hindustan is to lead a campaign against the infidels, to convert them to the true faith according to the command of Muhammad (on whom and his family be the blessing and peace of God), to purify the land from the defilement of misbelief and polytheism, and overthrow the temples and idols, whereby we shall be Ghazis and Mujahids, companions and soldiers of the faith before God. "

Re: # 190

"In fact, the Muslim invaders did nothing to spread Islam in India."

This is BS propaganda by Islamist and Hindus do not believe in this.

If you dare , I would spam this board with the exploits of your muslim forefathers of loots, rapes, genocide and forced conversion as they bragged in their own memoirs.

Closet Islamists like Riaz-Ul-Haqs think that spreading propaganda about their Islami cult would white wash the deeds of his Jehadi kuttey.

Riaz:

I have always maintained that Jinnah is an abandoned Indian hero. This abandonment did more harm to Muslim Indians in post independence. The leadership is only now emerging. It is quietly transforming also. I am familiar with Moradabad's brassware industry, and Benaras's silk industry. These were always based on the art and crafts of Muslim Indians. Hindu Khatri middlemen were keeping profits, through strange combination of "loans" whose principle could never be paid. Now, there is generation of Muslim Indians who went to the markets directly and brought profits into the community. These middlemen who lived very decadent lives, now have to literally beg for products, something that taken for granted.

Brits indeed made East India company to be best corporation of all times, because the returns it gave to its shareholders. There was a talk that Microsoft may beat it, but I am not sure if it did. But muslim Invaders also took wealth outside India. Mausoleums and palaces built in Central Asia to Peacock Throne in Iran are just examples.

More interesting is that India is such a sink hole that it absorbs outsiders. This is true of Islam and British and even earlier cases. Islam literally got drowned itself in India. Everywhere else, Indonesia, Malayesia to Iran to Spain its takeover had been complete (even though its expulsion in Spain was also complete). This is an interesting phenomena.

"That credit goes to the sufi saints"

Oh sh*t! If Eklavya reads that this thread is over!

I am really surprised that IMRAN KHAN is not saying a single word against Taliban,I think we should ask ''WHERE IS IMRAN KHAN?''

The 19 months long military operation did not succeed in capturing or killing Fazlullah, Muslim Khan and other culprits who killed 2000 innocent people. The armed forces only claimed that Taliban were being forced to withdraw and we observed that this policy resulted in spreading the writ of Taliban in surrounding areas. Now it is high time that the security forces should immediately arrest Fazlullah, Muslim Khan and all other killers of innocent people, seize the FM Radio channels and give a message to all. This is the ultimate answer and this should be the first step in the ongoing operation. If it is not done, we shall believe that there is something wrong at the bottom. For us withdrawal of Taliban from a place means, spreading the evil in more places,kill them or arrest them,those who are saying that this is AMERICAN war not ours,then how come they never asked GEN.ZIA,when these Taliban were hired to attack Red Army ,it was not Pakistan's war then but it is now.

Re: # 189 anil: "More interesting is that India is such a sink hole that it absorbs outsiders. This is true of Islam and British and even earlier cases. Islam literally got drowned itself in India. Everywhere else, Indonesia, Malayesia to Iran to Spain its takeover had been complete (even though its expulsion in Spain was also complete). This is an interesting phenomena."

The Brits remained isolated from Indians by a policy of apartheid. Their mission was pure profit and pillaging, not acceptance or assimilation.

Muslims did not remain aloof from the locals. Many inter-marred with Indians. In fact, the Muslim invaders did nothing to spread Islam in India. That credit goes to the sufi saints.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Riaz:

I have always maintained that Jinnah is an abandoned Indian hero. This abandonment did more harm to Muslim Indians in post independence. The leadership is only now emerging. It is quietly transforming also. I am familiar with Moradabad's brassware industry, and Benaras's silk industry. These were always based on the art and crafts of Muslim Indians. Hindu Khatri middlemen were keeping profits, through strange combination of "loans" whose principle could never be paid. Now, there is generation of Muslim Indians who went to the markets directly and brought profits into the community. These middlemen who lived very decadent lives, now have to literally beg for products, something that taken for granted.

Brits indeed made East India company to be best corporation of all times, because the returns it gave to its shareholders. There was a talk that Microsoft may beat it, but I am not sure if it did. But muslim Invaders also took wealth outside India. Mausoleums and palaces built in Central Asia to Peacock Throne in Iran are just examples.

More interesting is that India is such a sink hole that it absorbs outsiders. This is true of Islam and British and even earlier cases. Islam literally got drowned itself in India. Everywhere else, Indonesia, Malayesia to Iran to Spain its takeover had been complete (even though its expulsion in Spain was also complete). This is an interesting phenomena.

Re: # 182: "Anyway, what is wrong with Imran Khan? He should stick to cricket, banging white women, and building hospitals and doing charity, in these fields he is the best in the world."

I totally agree.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 183 anil: "If Jinnah's TNT is an example to deduce from the past. I highly doubt your statement. India would have been very fragmented and quite weak, if the Brits would not have come in."

Don't forget Jinnah was a much a nationalist as any other Indian politician and president of Indian National Congress. His disillusionment with Nehru caused him to leave Congress and join Muslim League.

As to how Brits looted India and how they systematically destroyed its economy and its craftsmanship and production capacity to build up their own, please read William Dalrymple, among others. The symbolic Koh-i-Noor did not end up in the British crown by accident.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 181: "John Maynard Keynes lectures I am talking were actually by his protege (??) Prof. John Kenneth Galbraith."

That makes sense. Galbraith was ambassador to India and a close economic adviser of JFK. His son has now picked up his mantle as an economist.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Riaz:

http://books.google.com/books?id=2mw8BUpShU0C&dq=%2B%22john+maynard +keynes%22+%2Blectures&printsec=frontcover&source=bl&ots=gvj96xc6xI& amp; amp;sig=kjGsNw8hDMzoJ9lzH_NPaRnE-p8&hl=en&ei=slH6ScX3EI64tgOs48j2AQ& sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1#PPA3,M1

The above link has John Maynard Keynes lectures, as from the notes taken by his student in his class. In case you are interested.

hamidm #168 it is good of you to point out that dost mittar is a good guy and a friend of pakistan. his goodness and his friendship towards pakistan are not the issue i have been trying to direct his attention to.

hope you'll come running to my defense next time Prof Masadi calls me a moron. but hopefully you'll assure him that i am not a moron but rather saying that i may be a moron but i am a good moron.

Riaz:

If Jinnah's TNT is an example to deduce from the past. I highly doubt your statement. India would have been very fragmented and quite weak, if the Brits would not have come in. Moghuls were losing power, Marathas and Sikhs were fighting guerilla wars. Muslims in India would not have accepted power being managed through one man one vote, especially when they were in power.

"Aren't most of the workers today wage slaves?"

Existentially, yeah, it's the ennui of working life and all that. But it's not the same as being whipped to carry marble slabs on your back until you drop dead of thirst just to build a mausoleum for some fat Queen who died and broke the heart of some fat King. How many slaves died when building the Taj Mahal I always wonder when I see pictures of it.

Anyway, what is wrong with Imran Khan? He should stick to cricket, banging white women, and building hospitals and doing charity, in these fields he is the best in the world.

Riaz:

I apologize, John Maynard Keynes lectures I am talking were actually by his protege (??) Prof. John Kenneth Galbraith.

Re: # 174 "It was built using slaves as well as craftsmen."

Aren't most of the workers today wage slaves?

BTW, I do believe that India would have industrialized and become a broad-based pluralistic democracy without sectarian tensions much faster had it not been colonized and set back by the Brits. It would also be united today as one country...and far more powerful.

Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Listen, his lectures are still available for you to watch. Just go to Baker library. I am certain you can find them at Stanford too.

Riaz:

You can ask Premji what I had done for his company when you meet him next that too at the very early stage.

I would love to meet just two you can pick, and take three of you out for lunch to listen to the rebuttal. I can always learn something new.

I am quite familiar with oDesk model.

Pakistan's problem is different. Until a few years ago, it was producing only 5,000 engineers each year. Tata was hiring 50,000 engineers in that year. Pakistan simply cannot achieve the critical mass any longer in IT, even if it can match India in number of engineering graduate.

The bar to enter is extremely high for any entrepreneur to make a difference in IT. I was asked by Sri Lanka's larget conglomorate to help them position in IT. My suggestion was the entry ticket was $100 million, Tsunami hit the island and the project became a history.

Pakistan should not compete with India, but use India to get in high tech. China used Taiwan.

There is a critical size market for electronics products in India and hence in South Asia. India lacked infrastructure to make it, until a few years ago. Its foucs had been in IT services.

Pakistan should open free trade, set up electronic manufacturing, let its army run like an army shop (Inidans have not learned in doing so). Increase the volume and flood Indian markets, and then export.

The same it should do with IT services, make its IT shops get business from Indian IT shops.

Re: # 175 anil: "I have attended his lecture at Harvard Business School."

Are you sure? If you are, you must be ancient. Keynes died in 1946.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 170

I can easily find at least a hundred Indians in Silicon Valley who would rebut you on every point you make. And I'd rather believe them because they are really accomplished people who have created value and helped build their country's brand name in technology in America. People don't do business with people or in places they don't know.

I have personally given contracts to Premji's company in India because I knew the people involved and understood/trusted their capabilities.

The growth of outsourcing in Pakistan has also been possible because of Pak expats. Menlo Park, California based oDesk has recently ranked Pakistan among the top outsourcing destinations in terms of growth, value for money and customer feedback.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 173

Riaz:

"...John Maynard Keynes remains popular. ..."


I have attended his lecture at Harvard Business School. He may be in vogue in Obama administration, but suppy siders had been since Reagan administration.

The only moral is that no economist has all the answers.

Unless of course, he is Masadi Mian, a Summa Cum Laude from buckle of bible belt college, then everything changes, as then Masadi Mian has spoken.

"Applying today's logic to what happened hundreds of years ago is sheer lunacy."

Exactly. So why do it?

"But it did provide livelihood to many craftsmen at the time"

It was built using slaves as well as craftsmen.

Re: # 172 PabloGanja: "Riaz has evidence that Taj Mahal was built bearing in mind future tourist revenues for India. Using Riaz's logic, we can defeat poverty by building more Taj Mahal's and empty marble and gold and jewel encrusted mausoleums with no purpose other than to help future generations gain tourist revenue."

This statement is sheer nonsense. The point I was making with Taj Mahal has to do it with its enduring value as a great monument. But it did provide livelihood to many craftsmen at the time and had a multiplier effect on job growth and economy of the time.

Applying today's logic to what happened hundreds of years ago is sheer lunacy. We're talking about 17th-18th century economy, not 20th century economy. However, even today, John Maynard Keynes remains popular. The highly respected economist argued that, in times of shrinking demand, the government should spend, even if it spends on having some people make holes and hire other to fill them.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

"Any century any time, construciton of forts and mousoleums for dead is not productive for the economy"

Riaz has evidence that Taj Mahal was built bearing in mind future tourist revenues for India. Using Riaz's logic, we can defeat poverty by building more Taj Mahal's and empty marble and gold and jewel encrusted mausoleums with no purpose other than to help future generations gain tourist revenue. Riaz is an amazing intellect.

Taj Mahal was partly built by virtual slaves wasn't it?

Riaz:

Any century any time, construciton of forts and mousoleums for dead is not productive for the economy. YOu either believe me, or prove me wrong and show something that economists are missing.

Riaz:

It is not about my winning, it is about are you winning?
When you compare construction of forts and mouseleums for the deads with construction of roads and infrastructure, you have lost the argument. It would be delusional to think that you win points when your next argument is "extreme bigotry" instead of facts to substantiate your point. Just because I used dispossessed moghul, you classify me as "extrme bigot". Please be my guest.

There are many glorious period of advancements in Islamic period - Ottoman and Persian empires to name the two. There are examples of positive contributions too, craftsmen, and artisans. Instead you chose to give credit to emperors. Do you realize Moghul empire was throughly discredited near its end?

Anyway, there so many examples of accomplishments, that is probably wasteful to mention to you, since you have a single stroke argument of "extreme bigotry". It is very sad and pathetic, but single stroke for sure.

Regarding, IT I could tell you more regarding Indian IT. This is a result of globalization and timed actions of Indian entrepreneurs from India more than Indian expats. I know it, I was the first one to go from silicon valley to set up what became India's largest operation of its kind, and 50% of all computer hardware exports.

It is complete delusional to think expats made the difference. I have ocassions when one of the most prominent Indian silicon valley entrepreneurs had said, "He likes Indians, but does not like India". Later he went onto invest there, and is yet to make a penny out of his investments. The same was true of my investment, which was the single largest investment of that time from silicon valley into India.

All the successes are due to Indian entrepreneurs, who threw ring around Indian bureaucrats that the bureaucrats never understood until it was too late. I can assure you to this date money made is by Indian entrepreneurs not other way around.

Romair, who has experience in doing business in India, would tell you a friendly rivalry between silicon valley based and india based even IIT graduates. I remember a situation, when a well known Indian entrepreneur from silicon valley and I met in Delhi, and later Azim Premji joined. This entrepreneur was telling Premji that entrepreneur ideas would succeed and Premji should listen. Premji being a very patient person listened. After the entrepreneur had left, Premji said, I wish this person all the success. The entrepreneur was able to get all the coverage, meetings with anyone and everyone, and that is all. Premji became the richest Indian.

A couple of years ago I met this person again, and he told me that he raised $300 million VC fund from the U.S. source, and that he could not invest in India. A few months agao, I found out that he was looking at how to invest in real estate and bollywood instead.

I can tell you more about why expat, with or without a chip on their shoulder, cannot make money in India.

Re: # 159 freehussaini: "More than 122 million people in Pakistan live on less than two dollars a day. 40 million live on less than a dollar a day. The percentage of poor is 74 in Pakistan i.e. worse than sub-Saharan Africa which is 72.2%"

Why are you continuing to spread false propaganda about Pakistan? What's your agenda? Who are you working for? Who feeds you this data?

Here's the most recent ADB data from http://www.mydigitalfc.com/my-world/india-worse-pakistan-lanka-poverty-adb

In dia worse than Pakistan, Lanka in poverty: ADB

A day after the World Bank said over 45 crore Indians live below 1.25 dollar a day, another multilateral agency ADB has came up with a new indicator which said India ranks below even Bangladesh, Pakistan and Sri Lanka in terms of poverty among Asian countries.
Almost 54.8 per cent of the Indians were spending less than $1.35 a day in 2005, said the ADB while releasing Key Indicators 2008, which provides a new methodology for measuring poverty. According to World Bank's latest definition of poverty, persons spending less than $1.25 dollar a day are poor. Earlier, poverty line was fixed at $1 dollar a day. ADB study also pointed out that the only Asian country, which suffered from higher incidence of poverty than India was Nepal where more than 55 per cent people were living below the poverty line.
Among the other neighbouring countries, 42.9 per cent were poor in Bangladesh, 24.9 per cent in Pakistan and 5.9 per cent in Sri Lanka. ADB study added that 62.19 crore people were poor in India in 2005, while according to World Bank's estimates the number of poor was 45.6 crore, which were more than poor living in sub-Sahara Africa. Pointing out that sustained economic growth is imperative for poverty reduction, ADB said, "policies that can also make growth more inclusive (should) remain the gold standard that policy makers should pursue."
According to the ADB report, pro-poor distribution policy can reduce poverty from 54.8 per cent to 20.4 per cent by 2020, while the pro-rich policies would bring down the poverty to 29.6 per cent.
The rates of poverty reduction in Bangladesh, India, Indonesia, Pakistan and Philippines, it said, "can differ by at least 7 percentage points depending on whether growth is pro-poor or pro-rich."
In terms of number of people, 40.77 crore people would continue to remain poor by 2020, if the government followed the pro-rich distribution policy.

Also look at: http://www.undp.org.pk/poverty-reduction-and-gender.html
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 162

sheikh tahmed,

...... based on my experience on chowk over the past couple of years, i think dost-mittar ji is a a much more sincere friend of pakistan than most pakis on this forum ...... he also appears to know a lot more about pakistan than some of us living in baltimore or detroit ....... most of us either have our heads stuck in the sand or are mere tamash beens looking for cheap thrills ......

.... let us have a mojito, kick back and watch this noora kushti between the army and al-lah's real soldiers .......

....... go redwings !

Re: # 163 anil: "GDP - Economy - is more than construction of mousoleum for dead kings, queens. They are not "source", instead "application" of wealth. If you honestly believe that it is not the case, then please tell that to Pakistan to keep building mousoleums for the deads and thus give "pay" to people. My advise you would soon realize how soon it can hit bankruptcy."

No what century are we talking about? Do you have any idea that most of the great ancient civilizations, including Egypt, Moenjodaro, Harappa, Taxila, Rome etc are remembered for their construction of great structures? What do you think brings tourists to India and helps you earn a lot of hard currency today? Doesn"t India exploit the Taj Mahal in its ads to attract tourists to India?

Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 164 anil: "Why do people of your ilk and Masadi's ilk, when they loose debate resort to "extreme bigotry" against Muslim as the reason?"

I think you have a very skewed sense of reality if you think you are winning the debate. As to the the "bigotry" charge, just go back and read your own interacts to get a sense of how your hatred of Muslims jumps out of your comments.

Anil: "Wealth of a nation is created in the nation by its people. "

Yes, I absolutely agree. But the government policies have a major impact on what happens in the economy. The reason for India's backwardness, poverty and hunger today lies in the bad governance of the country. Indians, as individuals, are fairly smart and doing well in other economies but they often have to leave their country to realize their dreams. Just look at all the code jockeys in America and Europe, many of them Indians, who are doing well and now trying to create jobs in India, or hiring Indians on work visas. The IT and tech progress in India is mostly the result of the efforts of its diaspora, not because of its "fantastic" democratic governance, although the 1990s reforms have helped a bit.

Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Riaz:

I also do not call Kamasutra sculpted around temples as productive contribution to the economy. It may be productive in many other reasons.

Re: # 154

Riaz:

"...Do you think Obama is spending on construction because it pleases him personally?..."

If Obama constructs ten more white houses to live, and five mouseleums. Yes he would be wasting national resources. Only stupids will call that generation of wealth or gainful employment.

"...In your extreme bigotry against Muslims, you fail to see how construction stimulates the economy and provides employment to a large number of people..."

It seems like you extreme pain of being dispossessed is cause of blaming me or anyone else who shows a mirror to you. Construction of G. T. Road would have been productive employment. If you believe construction of forts to live and mousoleums to be buried was "stimulates" (it seems you have picked this words from recent media) economy, please suggest it to Pakistanis.

Then wait to be laughed at or admired. When they laugh would you blame their extreme bigotry against Riaz as the reason for them to fail to see you as any more than a joker?

Why do people of your ilk and Masadi's ilk, when they loose debate resort to "extreme bigotry" against Muslim as the reason?

Take an advise, you would be better off instead to improve your knowledge, and reasoning.

Re: # 154

Riaz:

GDP - Economy - is more than construction of mousoleum for dead kings, queens. They are not "source", instead "application" of wealth. If you honestly believe that it is not the case, then please tell that to Pakistan to keep building mousoleums for the deads and thus give "pay" to people. My advise you would soon realize how soon it can hit bankruptcy.

Your glorious friend, SIR MASADI, calls military-industrial with some disdain for some valid reasons and lot more emotions.

Wealth of a nation is created in the nation by its people. Democracy is a system to acquire power and distribute power. Democracy does not provide bread, just as Aurangzeb was not providing bread to eat to people. Simple, isn't it. That is the way it is kept, simple and stupid.

Observe how a chabriwala in your town / village earns and provides bread to eat to his / her family. The entire economy is captured in that simple process.

You want to scale it up, but how?

The numbers of you quote, I quoted a few years ago from Paul Kennedy's book call Rise and Fall of Empires. You might like to read it.

dost mittar #156 i think you are straying to the objection i had to your comparing my appreciation of the military action to defend pakistan from the taliban and dispatch them to hell with arjun's joy at the death or injury or deportation or any other bad thing happening to ordinary "pakis". And i said that in doing so you were of the same mindset as arjun.

so dont keep dragging urstruly in.

and since you have dragged him in, i think you have an interesting (to put it gently) definition of a terrorist (i.e. you say urstruly considers himself to be one!). a terrorist is generally considered to be someone who has actually broken the law - and urstruly is merely taking full advantage of the rights of free speech in the US (carefully hiding his identity all these years just to be sure).

as for your good, bad or indifferent wishes towards pakistan - whatever you wish is fine. just dont try to lump my relief at this military action against terrorists invading pakistan with this joy some indian lowlife feels every time some real or imagined bad thing happens to a paki.

cheers.

oh, by the way, it is called a mojito .......

..... here is the recipe to cure all your troubles:

1.25 oz Captain Morgan® Original spiced rum
12 mint leaves
1 tbsp sugar
0.5 oz lime juice
2 oz soda



Place mint leaves in bottom of glass. Add crushed ice, Captain Morgan Original Spiced Rum, sugar, and lime juice, and muddle. Add soda water and garnish with mint leaves.

Re: # 155
More than 122 million people in Pakistan live on less than two dollars a day. 40 million live on less than a dollar a day. The percentage of poor is 74 in Pakistan i.e. worse than sub-Saharan Africa which is 72.2%

Somalia's total population is less than 10 million and the hunger is killing people like flies. What will happen to our 122 million poor? We, the well-fed, do not realize that when it happens, our hungry would trample each other for a handful of rice. They would go to any relief camp whether set up the U.S., India or Israel. We, the well-fed, then, would probably hold them poor in contempt for not being patriotic enough by our standards.

Re: # 141 Pew
[...Punjabi Muslims never wanted Punjab partitioned ...]

That's interesting... that kind of gels with indian "official" viewpoint on partition: that people didn't want it, but jinnah engineered the whole debacle using Direct Action Day etc...

There is a grain of truth to this - but this position was overtaken by later events - where "islam in danger" and "la illah allah" took over the entire pakiland movement... whatever reservation muslims may have had based on their linguistic and cultural affiliation were taken over completely by their re-awakened religious sentiments...

Anycase - once pakiland was formed, pakis have never looked back... cultural bonds was never re-attached to balance out their religious identity - instead pakis went on continously building upon islamic identity and went on from being cultural muslims (with strong linguistic identity) to be fanatic islamists where islam and only islam replaced everything else as part of their identity...

At this time - pakis have moved so far down the islamic road to hell, it comes off as almost impossible to imagine that punjabis may actually have rejected partition...

further to 156:

While my opinion doesn't matter, I prefer a stable, prosperous, peaceful Pakistan; I don't care if it is democratic, dictatorship or theocratic.

tahmed#147:

No, I am not trying to be clever; you call taleban terrorists and Urstruly has repeatedly identified himself with them. He has also made a cogent case as to why he supports them. No, whether his vision or yours is Pakistani "mizaj kay mutabiq" is for Pakistanis to decide. I do not hate either of you.

Economic Historian Angus Maddison's Data:

GDP in millions of dollars
--------------------------

Year 1000 1500 1600 1700


India 33 750 60 500 74 250 90 750

China 26 550 61 800 96 000 82 800

Western Europe 10 165 44 345 65 955 83 395


World Total 116 790 247 116 329 417 371 369


Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 142 anil: "Only a dispossesed Mughal will think it was because of Mughals who were busy taking wealth out or building beautiful mosques and palaces."

Who do you think was being paid to do the construction? Do you think they were using H1B workers from overseas?

Do you think Obama is spending on construction because it pleases him personally?

In your extreme bigotry against Muslims, you fail to see how construction stimulates the economy and provides employment to a large number of people.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 152 May allah be with you!

#150 ok. when we need your help, i am sure we will come looking for it. until that happens, sit back, relax, and enjoy the view of the wagah border.

cwrongmills #140: philosophical question for you - is it better to be a moron who is wright than to be a genius who is wrong?

Re: # 149

I truly feel sorry for you Punjabis Muslims - you had little control over Jinnah, and he handed you a moth-eaten Pakistan. Now you are fighting an unpopular war that you never wanted because of the events he set in motion (remember: Pakistan ka matlab kya? La illaha illal lah!)

We can help you, if you want to help yourselves first. But, first you would have to redeem yourselves.

nepew #146: you were referring to the west panjab. not bengal.

Re: # 131

{Get a goddamned education}

From who? From where? that may satisfy you!

#146 dost mittar: please dont try to be clever. where am i asking you to say anything about urstruly? please stick to what i said, like a grown man. leave the clevernesses to these indian nephews of mine.

tahmed#125:

"your post indicates thay you, like arjun, prefer not to distinguish between ordinary "pakis" and terrorists."

Why should I call Urstruly terrorist? He has a vision of Pakistan, just as you do.

Addendum to previous: the same applied to Bengal - Bengalis would never have supported Partition and would have voted down Pakistan!!

#141 Chacha32
Pakistan is no longer 'here' - it died in 1971. Which 'view' are you referring to?

And here is the emerging bottomline in Jalal's book - Jinnah used the ill-defined concept of Pakistan as a bargaining chip to extract greater concessions in future negotiations about the Constitution of India (undivided). (Where in the world is YLH when you need him?)

But, his ideas were so ridiculous and so looney that Congress would never have gone for them - so they called his bluff and accepted his 'plan' for Pakistan and accepted partition of Punjab and Bengal! Not what apparently Jinnah wanted, but he had to accept it or leave it!

I feel sorry for your Punjabi asses - you (Muslim Punjabi) guys never wanted Pakistan in the shape it emerged and would have rejected it outright had you known that it would have involved Partition, but now you are stuck with the Muslim barbarians in FATA with no resources to fight! Man, how ironical is that? I am sure that Jinnah never predicted that! BTW, Bengalis have already had their 'fight' and are no longer Pakistanis!

I must thank Jinnah for focusing your concentration on the looming war, while providing us a real world textbook lesson on the hazards of over-reaching and communal politics! Man, this is intense!

Re: # 122

cwrightmills:

You write sewer inspectors reports day in and day out, and pass judgment on democracy when neither you know nor you have ever voted. Democracy is a system of accumulation and distribution of power in a nation-state. Each evolves at its pace.

I am happy to note you and Riaz are very happy to call this tamaasha baazi. Atleast acknowledge, not pagiarize, as to who called what, including tamashaa. You are joing the pontiff as if American primaries are not tamashaa, to mention the few.

Get real and get over it Masadi mian. You will blot Mills name, get a different handle. Unless you have delusions of next handle to be Mohammad, the prophet.

#141 nevertheless...pakistan is here. get used to the view.

Re: # 126

Riaz sahib:

"...towards the end of the Mughal Empire, India’s GDP was not only higher than that of China, but that of western Europe combined..."

Only a dispossesed Mughal will think it was because of Mughals who were busy taking wealth out or building beautiful mosques and palaces.

I have been reading the Ayesha Jalal 'Sole Spokesman' book - recommend it to all. Jinnah is portrayed as quite the irresponsible fool that he was, BUT here is the big deal:

Punjabi Muslims never wanted Punjab partitioned and a Pakistan that would have resulted in Partition would have been voted down by Paki Punjabis had it been brought to a vote...but it never was!!

This is NEWS TO ME!!! I hadn't realized that until the Jalal book. Think about it - how ridiculous is that!

Tahmed this is the best your intellect could muster, c. wrong mills instead of c. wright mills? You must be a bigger moron than Paracha. I left these comments on his dawn article:

"Paracha makes moronic self-righteous arguments. This is the problem with the superficial anti-intellectual sensibilities of the Pakistani Middle Class. Why give this moron so much press is what I want to know?"

#137 pew-nephew: see #138.

#135 look, i already said pakis are really scared of indoos. when kids step out of line, paki mothers tell them about the big, bad indoos with dots on their heads.

i even pleaded with professor wrongmills (see #136) to stop patronizing indians and to instead show his fear of indians and to equate India with the US sometimes. isnt that enough?

Re: # 130 Chacha32

"...pakis are really scared of the single pasli indoos..."

Either pakis are fools, or they are really scared of India - why then is the bulk of the paki fauj lined up against India and not the vermin that are chewing your butt alive in Swat and Buner?

but.but...Professor Cwrongmills, I hope you catch your breath between these posts. You know what happens if you dont - you start hyperventilating after you are done.

btw, please dont patronize our pandit brothers...this hurts their feelings...Instead they want to be seen as being the same as the US. So please make them happy by ranting against them sometimes and equating them with the evil US.

Re: # 130 mullah32
[...pakis are really scared of the single pasli indoos...]

you bet... otherwise, why do you maintain a bloated army and pay for that through your nose, which then takes over your a##es?... what was the strategic depth for then?... and GUBO to america, GUBO to saudis?... I thought all that is to keep youself safe from indooos... No?

you all not you are

Have to go for now. Hope you are had an enjoyable learning experience as the peons of the West were exposed for all to see...

#130 tahmed your racism is despicable. The Black Cats just don't have the proper training to fight the Talibaboons, it has nothing to do with the number of paslis they have or the dots they put on their forehead. You should be ashamed of yourself you self-righteous buffoon.

#99 tahmed your BS just doesn't hold water. You want to make a connection between your so-called "American democracy", de Tocqueville and democracy in France so you can claim that American democracy resulted in French democracy due to the causation factor of his book. This is preposterous reasoning to say the least. The guy you are touting was a political participant in the non democratic setup the preceded the 1848 'revolution' and there was no democracy in America for at least 3 reasons at the time:

i) Wealthy land owners called the shots
ii)Black and women were disenfranchised
iii) Slavery was widespread

Get a goddamned education and some morals.

#129 yes pandit majorsrivalakumukalam. pakis are really scared of the single pasli indoos. particularly when they put that dot on their forehead.

Re: # 128

then mullah32 will cry about hindoo domination...

Just thinking! What if India sends its counterinsurgency troops to help the hesitant Pak fauj to clean out Swat, Buner and the rest of NWFP?

Re: # 125

I am somewhat impressed by the Pak faujis to finally do something about Buner. But, have they? Obama thinks that the Pak fauj may finally be realizing that Taliban, not India, is the real threat to Pakis. However, there are remnant Taliban still in Buner, not to mention in Swat. Unless the faujis swat all these flies everywhere, you guys are toast!

The economic historian Angus Maddison has estimated that in 1700 AD, towards the end of the Mughal Empire, India’s GDP was not only higher than that of China, but that of western Europe combined.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

dost mittar: arjun (and other indians like him) is joyful when innocent pakistanis are killed or hurt in any way. my post refers to the successful defense of Pakistan and the dispatching of the invaders to hell.

your post indicates thay you, like arjun, prefer not to distinguish between ordinary "pakis" and terrorists.

tahmed32#74:

I thought this post was by arjun. How can you celebrate killings in this way?

Re: # 116

It's just pure nonsense. Where is your source of data?

In 1000 AD, the greatest power with highest literacy and the most productive economy in the world was in Muslim Spain...not India nor China. Grenada was the largest, most literate city with the best university in the world. Even Jews acknowledge that it was their "Golden Era", according Israeli historian Abba Eban. This was very well documented and covered in the Wall Street Journal's millennium edition on January 1, 2000.

As far as "Shining India" is concerned today, it's GDP of $1.4 trillion still accounts for only 2.8% of the world GDP produced by a fifth of humanity. What good has the Hindu-dominated democracy wrought? Grinding poverty? Chronic and widespread hunger? Well-documented and widespread recurring violence against the minorities and women? You should be ashamed of these realities, as is your prime minister Manmohan Singh, probably one of a handful of honest politicians in India, who could not have been elected on his own merit without support from Sonia Gandhi.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Anil writes "To all unprejudiced observers, election is a Tamasha that has succeeded in bringing 400 million people out to vote every five years."

Anil sahib this is part of your BS that you spew here day and night. If voting hasn't solved the problems of the people, if it is only a game for choice between tweedle dee and tweedle dum then bringing 400 or 1000 million people out to vote would be worse than bringing them out to watch a monkey show, or a cobra dance etc. It is worse because even though it is a similar waste of time as that tamasha baazi it gives people the impression that their voice counts when in reality it does not.

Alumni WW was right on this one, and SIR masadi tells me that he approves of his characterization of Indian 'democracy' as tamasha baazi. The condition of the people in India is worse than what the worst dictatorship can produce, so where is the BEEF errr democracy?

Re: # 120

Khyber is trying to prove that Taliban terrorists = Dalai Lama

Even more than 60 years after independence from almost two centuries of British rule, large scale poverty remains the most shameful blot on the face of India.Millions of people living on streets in India.India still has the world’s largest number of poor people in a single country. Of its nearly 1 billion inhabitants, an estimated 350-400 million are below the poverty line, 75 per cent of them in the rural areas.More than 40 per cent of the population is illiterate, with women, tribal and scheduled castes particularly affected.It would be incorrect to say that all poverty reduction programmes have failed. The growth of the middle class (which was virtually non-existent when India became a free nation in August 1947) indicates that economic prosperity has indeed been very impressive in India, but the DISTRIBUTION OF WEALTH has been very uneven.
The main causes of poverty are illiteracy, a population growth rate ,in Pakistan although our leaders love their begging bowl but standard of living is way better for majority of Pakistanis.In Pakistan we are dealing with terrorists but India is helping DALAI LAMA,WHO IS A terrorist and trying to destabilize China.I think reforms are needed in INDIA before it sees super power dream by 2050.

Re: # 118

Correction - Its the Pakistanis who don't believe the world existed before 7th century. Indian Muslims understand history even before that time period. So, I stand corrected.

Re: # 115

Riaz - But then I obviously forgot that Muslims do not believe the world existed before 7th century - so I don't blame you.

Yeah man Riaz - we should all go back to Mughal rule, it was paradise in those days...

Why don't you pakis re-establish the Mughal days and see how that works out for you?... and then indians discard their democracy and join you as well... LOL

Re: # 115

Riaz - Using selective and incomplete data for proving your arguments is at best ignorance and at worst disingenious. Here's how the share of India's GDP declined over centuries:

1st century - India's share in world's GDP was 32.9%.
1000 AD - It was 28.9%
1500 AD - It was 24.5
1600 AD - It was 22.6

In fact it went steadily down after the Mughal dynasty began in India. And it kept going down with the British rule

For all those singing the praises of Indian democracy and bashing the "Musla rule", here is the sad truth about India's democracy today:

India was very a well governed nation under Muslims...far better than the pathetic governance you have today in "the largest democracy".

The pre-British, early 19th century Moghul India, described as caste-ridden, feudalistic and unmodern, was economically ahead of the rest of the world,including Britain and the US, according to S. Gururmurthy, a popular Indian columnist. The Indian economy contributed 19 per cent of the world GDP in 1830, and 18 per cent of global trade, when the share of Britain was 8 per cent in production and 9 per cent in trade, and that of US, 2 per cent in production and 1 per cent in trade. India had hundreds of thousands of village schools and had a functional literacy rate of over 30 per cent. In contrast, when the British left, India’s share of world production and trade declined to less than 1 per cent and its literacy was down to 17 per cent.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

The problem of India is poor leadership.Good leadership means doing a few good things and staying focused.With so many parties trying to forge alliances, India will be unable to secure a strong leadership.Blame it to India's unworkable constitution or to the half baked democracy, anarchy would be the best way to describe the current India ethos. The biggest threat to India's democracy are the Hindu fascist party like BJP and religious organizations like RSS, Bajrang Dal (Monkey Brigade), Shiva Sena, and VHP.

#102 Posted by hamidm2

I was speaking to somebody who teaches at Kinnaird the other day and she confirmed that despite the fact that there are strict entry requirements to the campus, on several occasions burqa clad women surreptitiously entered the premises and issued threats and warnings to the students. Yes there is an atmosphere of fear on campus and students try not to linger at the college other then for classes. The principal herself was used to wearing pants and western style outfits, so this ban is onerous to her as well and is a direct response to the threats.

Youn di humein azadi kay dunia hui heraan
Ay Quaid e Azam tera ehsan hay ehsan

Re: # 110

Apparently, you've been asleep for years. Or you are simply ignorant of what has been happening in Pakistan. It's now just as stinking a democracy as India, with corrupt and inefficient politicians in charge. That's what you get when you have an ignorant electorate.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

#110 harish_hyd.... the problems of India are at extreme level too,estimated 250 million people in India are below the poverty line and approximately 75 per cent of them are in the rural areas.India still uses the Caste System, It ranks you on how important you are in the Social Status. The very poor people, are called the Untouchables, and are the lowest caste. If someone from a higher caste touches, talks, or touches something the untouchable has touched, they have to be showered with holy water. In India, 390 million people still live on $1 a day or less. India is home to roughly one-third of all poor people in the world.There is also extreme corruption in India.
another worst thing in India is that I: As many as 10 million female fetuses may have been aborted in India over the last 20 years as families try to secure a male heir.In the two decades since ultrasound equipment, which allows prenatal determination of sex, became widely available, the number of girls born in India has declined steeply ,The preference for sons has distorted the gender ratio throughout India.As ultrasound equipment becomes cheaper, allowing more and more Indian clinics to purchase it, the gender imbalance in the population has grown greater. In 1991 there were some 945 women for every 1,000 men. The ratio dropped to 927 females per 1,000 males in 2001.To have a daughter is socially and emotionally accepted if there is a son, but a daughter's arrival is often unwelcome if the couple already have a daughter . So if India want to become a super power by year 2050 then India should adopt all modern life and living standards.

#109 by RiazHaq

Once you've figured out an answer to this, then tell me why Indian politics and legislatures are dominated by criminals and thugs, many of whom have been accused or convicted of serious crimes including murder?

Riaz mian, Indian politicians maybe criminals and thugs but they're elected by the people. But can you tell us why despite being better fed and nourished than Indians, you guys do not have the balls to resist dictators who grab power at the drop of a hat? Even an impoverished Nepal can kick out its king, but not Pakis, the best-fed and clothed people in South Asia! Could it have something to do with thousands of years of lying down and spreading yourselves wide open for every invader that crossed the Khyber?

Re: # 94
In your long dissertation on Indian democracy, you still haven't answered a very basic and simple question: Why can't the Indian democracy feed its people? Why 43% of its children suffer from chronic hunger? Why are the HDI indicators for the biggest Indian states in the north and central India, where the vast majority of Indians live, are worse than Sub-Saharan Africa?

Once you've figured out an answer to this, then tell me why Indian politics and legislatures are dominated by criminals and thugs, many of whom have been accused or convicted of serious crimes including murder?
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Pakistan army: Taliban holding town hostage
ISLAMABAD (AP) — Troops sent to repel a Taliban advance toward the Pakistani capital killed 14 suspected militants, the army said Thursday, and accused insurgents of holding an entire town hostage.
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hkiMxbHNH0BqgpWA2ZG6 VD6wVTmAD97SR9H00

Khyber #101 From whatever little I can tell of the Buner/Dir operations from the news, it does seem that the military is adapting to switching from "yesterday's enemy" (indian military in a WWII style war) to "today's enemy" (taliban). The fact that the taliban are too stupid to adapt as well certainly helps.

Re: # 102
hamidm2...
may not be that bad to have some sort of dress code in college campuses....a college campus should not turn out to be a place to show off colorful dresses and jewellery...sometimes it turns out to be vulgur...

Faruk #103 Good catch!! :-)

Any more conspiracy theories???

re: hamidm2 #102
"She said jeans and tight dresses were banned on college premises since years but the new principal was unaware of the ban and girls were using this to their advantage."

I really liked the "using this to their advantage" part.


Very amusing.


Regards,


Faruk

another taliban victory in lahore :

LAHORE: The Kinnaird College (KC) administration has banned the students from wearing jeans or other tight dresses in the wake of possible terrorist threats. The college has imposed a strict dress code that only allows students to wear Eastern dresses such as shalwar qameez or loose trousers. Dupatas have been made mandatory. KC Vice Principal Nikhat Khan told Daily Times the measures were in line with a government notification, and had no connection with rumours about burqa-clad women issuing warnings to students. She said jeans and tight dresses were banned on college premises since years but the new principal was unaware of the ban and girls were using this to their advantage. Students reported an atmosphere of fear after the introduction of rules that barred students from wearing dresses of their choice. afnan khan

............ everyone is a taliban!

baitullah mehsud zindabad!

Re: # 100tahmed32...'''
The Karachi crisis seems clearly timed by the taliban/alqaeda gang to throw off balance the military campaign in the north.''''
''TRUE.''
There are reports that Taliban militants have shaved four young men for listening to music in Buner, An area of Yousafzai Pashtun adjacent with the restive Swat of Pashtunkhwa. When secular ANP signed a peace treaty with the Sufi Muhammad of TNSM , which is mass front of Taliban militants and Sufi himself is the father in law of the Chief of militants in Swat Fazlullah and he had taken more than 10000 men to Afghanistan to fight against the international community there who had come to wipe up the militants Taliban from there after the America was targeted in 2001. Most of his men were either slaughtered or perished on the way but interestingly Sufi and his few clever colleagues found the way out and appeared in Kurram Agency from where they were taken to Dera Ismail Khan and he remained ther for few years waiting that Pashtun would soon forget their sentimental kins and kiths butchered by the said man. When he was needed by the establishment in 2008 then he was released and a new role was assigned to him to add to problems of the innocent Pashtun. Now once again Pashtun in Malakand division are suffered due to this man but sorry to say that this time secular ANP joined hands with him for unknown reasons.These criminals,thugs known as Taliban must be crushed before they crush entire Pakistan.

RiazHaq #78 Clearly the voters knew something about Sufi Muhammed when he was beaten in elections! He does seem to be a characterless man - given that the day after the National Assembly passed the disgraceful Swat resolution, he reneged on his part by declaring the National Assembly itself to be "ghair sharia" in a "mass gathering" (where it is obvious the locals were forced under taliban threat to attend)!! And not satisfied with declaring the democratically elected NA to be "ghair sharia", he proceeded to declare the Supreme Court "ghair sharia" as well, never mind the historic stand taken by the Supreme Court against the military dictator.

But clearly, what brought peace to Buner and Dir was the Pakistan military action (and God bless our brave military soldiers whose uniform the military dictator disgraced). And it is obviously force, not principle, that will bring the taliban bandits under control in Swat.

The Karachi crisis seems clearly timed by the taliban/alqaeda gang to throw off balance the military campaign in the north. But here again, democracy is proving to be stronger than these bandits - the ANP and MQM leaders are right now making a joint presentation to the people of Karachi to not start an ethnic conflict in Karachi, which these brutal attacks were clearly meant to spark.

As the prophet said, the pen is mightier than the sword. And so democracy and the rule of law is mightier than any dictator - whether he is in uniform and wears perfume like a french whore, or he wears a beard and smells like a dead dog.

#81 Prof. W. C. Wright (Prof. Masadi) writes: "Tahmed the French Revolution was 1789, it seems you are date challenged. De Tocqueville book had nothing to do with it. It was a bourgeoisie/peasant raid on the feudal order."

sigh. Professor sahib, there was revolution in 1848 in France as well. And in fact that was the point of DT writing his book!! (i.e. he set out to see why the 1789 revolution failed to introduce democracy in france while the 1775 (or whatever you want to call it) US revolution succeeded in introducing democracy. And in writing the book, he contributed to the 1848 revolution.

You are no doubt my intellectual superior SIR. After all, I am constrained by attempts to stick to facts, and do not have the intellectual wings needed for the flights of fancy in which you have a First Class Seat. Even poor Hamidm occupies the Economy Seat in the Fancy Flights Airlines.

Anil, the biggest cost to be paid by the chinese will come because of the concept of "population dividened". The concept turned malthusian rhetoric on its head in light of growth economics.

China adopted a "one child policy" which might create problems both socially and economically. The concept of "4,2,1" I.e. 4 grandparents, 2 parents and 1 child construct is a drag on society. This means that for two entire generations, 1 child (young worker) will have to support 2 parents and 2 grandparents as the population in china will age. this is an enormous burden. Socially as well, imagine a worls where you have no cousins, no nephews and nieces.

In India the population divident is still to come...India has another 50 yrs.

Re: # 56
hamidm2....
don't worry....our sardars will do it...as they halted the talibs in 1948 in kashmir...

Re: # 94 That was a good answer anil. Very impressive and thought out as well as thought provoking

Re: # 94 That was a good answer anil. Very impressive and thought out as well as thought provoking

Re: # 91

Riaz:

"...As you said earlier, Indian democracy is no more than a tamasha..."

To all unprejudiced observers, election is a Tamasha that has succeeded in bringing 400 million people out to vote every five years. Please at least own your opinion when you extend what I said to its democracy, because I own what I say.

Yes, Indian democracy is defective. However defective it is, still it has served its people well.

Economic development is one very important aspect. A case has been made by economists that China and India if they had chosen to follow a la Taiwan model, there was just not enough FDI available for investments in 1950s to produce any better results for these two giants.

Nehru chose a path, and so did China. The merits and demerits of their decision are increasingly irrelevant. One now has however defective democracy, and the other has however defective communism.

Indian turtle, only in the minds of India hating Pakistanis and right wing Indian nutcases, could have been at different stage compared to China. Still please do investigate and find out the economic conditions of people in inner China. Disparity in communist country, and that too so massive is what many observers who had been able to study have exclaimed. Obviously Pakistanis have not included themeselves, even when Chinese accept it. The peasants have not received money for years for the crops they have grown, instead allowed to keep a portion of the crops. All the money was kept in coastal China to develop. I know in India, no one could have ever get away with this.

Chinese worker inside China cannot freely move elsewhere to get jobs. Again, I know India this would not have been possible.

These are some of the costs paid by Chinese.

No Indian would have paid through these restrictions, instead such acts would have disintegrated India. However defective democracy has kept India together and today's India can dream for a tomorrow.

Something I would wish Pakistanis to be able to do, rather than have nightmare instead.

Yes, problems are there in India for all to see. The growth is uneven, empowerment is uneven.

For your information, Kerala has third world economic indicators, and first world social indicators.

Gujrat, Maharastra, Karnataka, Tamilnadu, Andhra there is more economic development. This is the reason as fascist like Modi survives.

West Bengal had, but now does not have. Bihar, Orissa, U.P. have negative GDP for almost a generation.

Punjab and Haryana again have higher standards of living and quality of life, and east Asian economies like GDP growth.

Riaz Sahib, it is futile to find holes in hole ridden fabric of however defective Indian democracy.

Can this defective democracy serve its citizens? My answer is unequivocally yes, and it has been doing so.

Will Indians settle for Pakistan like situation? I highly doubt it.

Will India deliver Indian Kashmir on a silver platter? I highly doubt it.

Kashmir's solution is neither in today's India, nor in today's Pakistan. It, therefore, makes no ssense to make Kashmir solution today's problem. As if, this has not wraught enough unstability inside Pakistan, in its neighborhood.

It is also delusional to think nuclear weapons are what holding India back.

Days of war are over. India has more to lose in wars with Pakistan than Pakistan which has destroyed more than it has built - other than religious fervor - over more than a generation. It is sad for me to see how easily many Pakistanis have writen off one generation, as long as their sons and daughters are in the U.S. No one is accountable for nation's loss of one generation to Islamic terror.


Example of such callousness is found only in Palestine. I have said here and elsewhere what Pakistan and Palestine need are their Gandhi to sharpen non-violence as the sharpest weapon and use it.

Pakistani Gandhi would not have let Pakistani army go and bomb its own people or burn Lal Masjid. He would have gone to break bread with Sufi Mohammad.

Five institutions that I mentioned are a reality in Pakistan, the sooner it reconcile with its five institutions the better its people will be. All Pakistanis need to work to create synergies among these five institutions. When they hate one institution they hate Pakistan, be he Hamidm hating democracy, be he Tahmed sahib, Urstruly hating Army, and be it hating Taliban. Pakistan has been the single biggest looser.

Till you can create such synergy Riaz sahib, you are welcome to watch across the border where next generation of Indians is going after their share of world's profits. Now you can look at their railroad tracks and marvel Islamabad-Lahore highway. Masadi sahib can use his expertise of sewer pipe inspector, HP sahib can do micro analysis and the both can connect dots which have connections only in their minds.

Can you stop Indians from dreaming whether he dreams sitting on the rail road track, or when the slumdog millionaire jumps in and out of the sh*t hole to fulfill his dream? Riaz sahib they have a dream, many of those who dream make them real also. Give reason for Lal Masjid Mullahs and Jamia Hafsa girls to dream not reason to create nightmare. At least that is was Pakistani Gandhi would have done.

This is the only way compete and get Pakistan's share of world's wealth and profits. This for sure is the right way to bring sustainable prosperity.

Re: # 91
Riaz...
Democracy is not a restaurent that it will serve food and water...
If India is now in this doldrum, it the failure of Indian leaders for not managing partition proper way or not making good transition plan from brits...but, whatever is happening in last 2 decades (post 1991), it is quite good...It is difficult to manage vast country ( in terms of diversity) like India...you should know that after loosing BD and facing problem from NWFP etc....
Regarding poverty, it is a problem and will be there for couple of decades (India is country of poors for more than 1000 years. It will nor vanish overnight)....how much we can reduce poverty that is here for everyone to see....

"India has fared worse than any other country in the world at preventing recurring hunger."
And yet for some reason Indians are not marching to foreign lands to shoot unarmed women and children or flog little girls. Maybe poverty isn't the cause of such barbarity.

Re: # 89

As you said earlier, Indian democracy is no more than a tamasha. It has miserably failed to serve its people's basic needs such as food. With the exception of Kerala, the situation in India is far worse than the Human Development Index suggests. There is no right greater than the right to be free of hunger. According to economist Amartya Sen, who won the Nobel Prize for his work on hunger, India has fared worse than any other country in the world at preventing recurring hunger.

Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 86

Are you in disguise, again? What got you banned this time? Are you ever going to straighten up and fly right?
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 76

NKG:

Indian democracy is evolving. It does not ape, nor can it ape democracies in other countries. Countries, including, Czech claim their democracy is modeled after Indian democracy.

My point is that democracy in a country is unique to it, just as its identity is unique. I am certain if Pakistan is allowed it too will have its very own form of democracy. In its democracy, I see two more institutions - Army and Mullah - would find a role. Thus instead of three (Executive, Legislative and Judiciary, there would be five. As long they are odd in number, deadlock is breakable. There is nothing magical about three institutions. Most of bi-cameral legislative to break deadlock in legislative. Since it would be unique it will have its pangs. No one of these five is weaker and constitution should not allow them to become weaker. I know Army and Mullah are not popular among many Pakistanis here. I cannot see how anyone in Pakistan, can dismante these two (Mullah and Army) instituions.

India is fortunate to not have these two as powerful. It has its own challenges - castes in Hinduism, and regionals. I am bullish about today's India. I am hopeful caste influence will be manged, and regionals are creating even more vibrant democracy with a way to devolve power. Such deovolution also deal with Kashmir issue over a period of time, provided Pakistan survives in the present form.

Re: # 77 Hasho

Yes its a dangerous game but from the point of view of Americans and genrals of paki fouj - apnay baap ka kiay jata hay ni. 1.8 nillion is something to die for. Imagine how Zardari would be salivating.

Gotta go everyone. Hope my short posts were informative and fun, as always.

hamid writes "... the answer is simple: gentlemen prefer blondes ..... besides, one gets tired of the taliban position, which is about as exciting as the christian missionary position ......... i hope this explains my position - masadi sahib is a virgin and that's why he doesn't talk about such things"

Tahmed writes "hmmmmmmm...what position were you in that you are trying to explain with reference to these other position?"


Tahmed Hamid was referring to his non-hetero positions. How is that as rebuttal to his 'virgin' comment- like I said to WW, don't mess with your intellectual superiors, and refer to them as SIR.

Re: # 80 Riaz

I think you should really pay attention to scholars like Dr. Pete Zahut of Advanced Booking Institute, who said that "we have no clue what is baking in there"; he was refrring to paki fouj, while having a press conference along with his fellow Dr. Ivana Tickle.

#77 Hasho mian an army coup at this time would bring the army down...

“The army take over in Pakistan would be worst than the taliban take over and we know that Talibans are scum of the earth.
People of Pakistan get ready to fight the army if it takes over.�

The ‘people’ of Pakistan are lulled into watching Bollywood trash on TV. They have no idea what “People Power� can do against all ‘scum of the earth’ including the Tele-Ban, Feudal lords, Mullahs, Army and all sorts of Elite groups now ruling them.
South Korea, Philippines, Thailand , Nepal etc are some recent examples of people power that the Pakistan media should show on TV, interspersed with Bollywood ! (Indian Democracy is hardly a the best example, based on influence padling, personality cults and wealth).
High fangled scholarly commentaries and discussions in isolation have their place only when the people-majority is educated.
Any enlightened Muslim knows that Quranic Sharia can not be propagated “at the point of a Gun� and that Tele-Ban are only practicing their Religious norms and not the Deen that came to eradicate these ancient pagan practices.

WW stay in line or I am near the computer to checkmate you, and refer to my posts with SIR, alright!

Tahmed the French Revolution was 1789, it seems you are date challenged. De Tocqueville book had nothing to do with it. It was a bourgeoisie/peasant raid on the feudal order.

While dismissing the speculations about Pakistani state's imminent collapse, Juan Cole of Informed Comments says, "The hype about Pakistan is very sinister and mysterious and makes no sense to someone who actually knows the country"

Read more at http://www.juancole.com/2009/04/readers-have-written-me-asking-what-i.html

Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

#63 Tahmed there is no grassroots democracy in America,and the U.S. were the spiritual fathers of the Taliban, don't try to hide behind BS of the de Tocqueville nonsense that did not describe and does not describe the militarized capitalism of corporate America. And how the hell could he note that it went back hundreds of years when the US had not existed HUNDREDS of years when he was writing his gibberish?

Hasho mian don't support this thug.

Re: # 69 tahmed: "this is what makes me so sad (and mad) about the hundreds of schools burnt by these bastard taliban in swat."

Your indignation is absolutely justified. During my visits there in the 70s and 80s, I found Swat to be a very beautiful, friendly and civilized place with lots of schools, clinics, orchards etc. It had decent roads, hotels and restaurants and other facilities for tourists. Not the kind of place that would expect to produce the Taliban hordes. I believe Mulla Fazalullah moved in there when the first ski resort opened and he found work as a ski lift operator. He and Sufi are actually from a village in Dir, not originally from Swat valley. Dir has always been more religious...Sufi Mohammad used to be JI leader there and he was a candidate in an election there. The radicalization coincided with the anti-Soviet campaign in Afghanistan during the 1980s.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

I am just amazed at the american game.
First Mike Mullen and today Obama, praised the army. Clearly, the US is encouraging the army to launch another coup. This is so pathetic and provides more than ample evidence that the US game is to work with the army instead of the civilians.

The army take over in Pakistan would be worst than the taliban take over and we know that Talibans are scum of the earth.

People of Pakistan get ready to fight the army if it takes over.

Urstrly, MQM is part of the game. First a big deal was made out of the swat deal and the US continued to force the army to go to Swat, when that did not work, someone sent couple of hundred gangsters down in Bunor and finally the civilians were forced to bring the army. In Karachi the same game is being played. Create a law and order situation and then ask the army to come and help.
The army coup in Pakistan would really bring the country down.

Re: # 54
anil...
Indian brand of democracy is changing gradualy...First it was leader driven,or better to say Congress/Gandhi family driven....after Mandal, it bocme caste driven and now the secularism means musla appeasement...still, large segments of Indians do vote hoping better facilities i.e. water, security etc. etc....

Hasho #73 Greeings. Aleph Null also knows the value of pi to the 354th decimal place. He can tell you the time and place of birth of every Nobel Prize winner. He can also recite the 17 ka pahara..backwards!!

#71 urstruly: how are your treacherous anti-pakistan activities going? looks like your mullah dogs are getting sent to hell by the score in Buner.

The Midget Algay wants to show how quickly he can check wiki.
I read tahmed's post and knew the dates were wrong, but it was really not necessary to correct the date. It was unimportant. The important part was what Tahmed was saying. That has lots of merit.

#70 yes of course you indians are brilliant. in addition to walking in air, i.e., on the way to the railroad tracks.

So there. It begins. MQM has initiated the ethnic cleansing of Karachi once again. The next step is the resurection of MQM death squsds that went underground during the 90s. I think there is a double game. I think MQM is tasked with ethnic cleansing of Karachi, so that the abandoned properties and businesses of other ethnicities can be handed down to them as reward and reward is for creating the mayhem so that a frigin' AtaTurk is made to emerge from the fouj.

The amerikan experiment with installing a puppet regime through a doctored election has failed miserably. The original idea was that they would gather the most corrupt bunch of civilians and hand over to them the civilian affairs of the country so that the mercenary fouj could be engaged against freedom fighters, But the aftermath of Jamiah Hafsa masacre ruined the best laid plans. The dictator had to be relived of his duties otherwise people were about to bar-b-q anything that moved in uniform. The incompetent and corrupt civilian puppets are so pathetic and miserable right now that they are begging the so called opposition parties to take part in the government. Which is an absurdity rather than odity in the history of politics. But these miserable fukks desreve this - as in Punjabi the deserve sou jutian tay sou piaz.

It is likely that Taliban will come to karachi not to avenge the blood of their ethnic brethren but to stretch the napak fouj and paramilitary and other law enforcement. So logically, even if after a blood bath in Karachi, fouj declares Martial Law, the Taliban will keep fouj engaged in Karachi. Fouj's supply lines will stretch out of Karachi anyway so the Taliban in southern Punjab may be able to ambush them at will. I think fouj is playing an extremely dangerous game by mobilizing their pet dogs in Karachi. But who gives a shit, 1.8 billion of sweetness is on its way.

#67

Chacha,

Some of us (you are excluded, of course) know the basics - like the era when de Tocqueville flourished - pretty well. They don't have to rely on Wikipedia to confirm that its House of Burgesses, or call up Google for the future of the human race ...

#65 as for Pakistan, i think there is a great desire to get their children educated even among the poorest pakistanis. they see it (rightly) as the way to prosperity. this is what makes me so sad (and mad) about the hundreds of schools burnt by these bastard taliban in swat.

RiazHaq #165 I was just writing from memory. But the date is interesting - this book became a best-seller in france, and no doubt had a role in influencing the 1848 revolution. (alephnull, please check against wikipedia and confirm if i got the date right).

You are right about US schools encouraging community work. In fact, students in high school are required (at least in this county) to do a certain number of hours of community work as condition for graduation. In fact, it is at the kindergarten school level that the US develops its "winning edge" by building character and self-confidence in the individual.

I shall check out your website and let you know if i have any comments. i assume the web address is availabe on chowk under your nick.

#86 thanks for double checking my posts with wikipedia. you indians can be useful on chowk sometimes.

tahmed #63

{{In his book Democracy in America, the frenchman de Tocqueville noted this grassroots democracy in the US as well. That was in 1948.}}

No sahib, it was in 1835 that the first volume of Alexis de Tocqueville's book 'Democracy in America' was published. The second volume appeared in 1840.

{{Check out the House of Burgess at Colonial Williamsburg}}

Another howler. It's the House of Burgesses. Note the plural, sahib. A burgess was the (usually) elected representative of a borough.

Re: # 63 tahmed: "That was in 1948. And he compared it with the statist setup in France at the time."

I think you got year and the century wrong. It was in 1830s that de Tocqueville came to America.

tahmed: "I think Pakistanis are actually quite good at community work."

I wish they were. Just listen to the people in Pakistan constantly whine about what the government should do for them. They don;t even clean up around themselves in their neighborhoods. Most Pakistani politicians and celebrities do nothing to set any good examples of public or social service, with very few exceptions like Imran Khan. They take from society and give nothing back. The kids in schools are not taught or encouraged or incentivized to volunteer their time or money for social causes. There is a real deficit in society as for as public and social service is concerned. I have written extensively about the need to light candles rather than curse darkness in Pakistan. I have also highlighted the few exceptions like Sattar Edhi and Greg Mortenson, who are providing the much needed help to the poor and needy.
Plus a few social entrepreneurs in Pakistan like the founders of Saafwater.

You are welcome to read about it, if you are interested, and add your voice to it.


Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 62

Riaz:

“… is the grassroots participation of people at local levels where people know and care for each other and their communities. Whether it is schools, libraries, little leagues, various city commissions, or local charities,…�

I know you think it below you, but every five years 750 million Indians electorate can turn out to vote and they vote over 60%. This is good to shift center of gravity there. What brought them out, you can too find out, if you care. It is this tamasha that brings them out. Market principle dictates so be it, if that is what they want to come out, let it be.

Pakistanis too came out and voted, you may chose to ignore it. If this was not grass roots then what was it?

Let its tamasha be that of Hamidm, Tahmed, Urstruly, Taliban etc. etc., bring them out. They came out voted even though the choices were a chore and chore’s mausera bhai. They are also part of Pakistani identity. The shift happens in democracy, if it is not quashed.

The charity that impresses you about the U.S. is possible where there is disposable income. If you do not believe me then ask my Masadi Mian. Pakistan is no where near there. You are better off aligning your expectations in line with reality.

#62 True. btw, you are not the first one to have noted this. In his book Democracy in America, the frenchman de Tocqueville noted this grassroots democracy in the US as well. That was in 1948. And he compared it with the statist setup in France at the time.

He also noted that these roots go back centuries. Check out the House of Burgess at Colonial Williamsburg next time you get the chance - founded on 1620 (as I recall) - it provided the model for the US Congress.

Now how does one adopt this in Pakistan? I think Pakistanis are actually quite good at community work. So, if only they observed the US from a broader angle (rather than the narrow Pakistan-centric view), and with a view to benefit from its experience (as opposed to merely using it as a convenient scapegoat e.g. for "creating the taliban" - which is not even true) I think Pakistanis would be much better off.

Re: # 60 tahmed: "Can you name one thing in US democracy that Pakistan should adopt?"

My personal favorite is the grassroots participation of people at local levels where people know and care for each other and their communities. Whether it is schools, libraries, little leagues, various city commissions, or local charities, I see a lot of Americans volunteering to make their communities better.


Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 53 Posted by TehsinA on April 29, 2009 8:28:11 am

janab TehsinA sahib,

Pakis do want to save the geographical area called puristan. They have problem with the cabal of thugs that has ruled puristan since independence, people who are in the ruling elite such as the politicians, the government bureaucrats, the military, the mullah, the English educated society, gunja and his kashmiri clan, mr. 10% who is now mr. 100%, the punjoos who continue to degrade the baluchis, the pathaans, the mohajirs, etc. etc.

People who identify with these groups have failed their nation of over 170 million people. These people who are less than 1% of the total population control the mind and the economic well being of the rest of the population. Pakis are not free, they have lost their thinking capacity, and they take shower only on Fridays for prayers, and then they get blown to pieces while praying in their own mosques. How much worse than this can any society of humans be?

Everywhere in puristan these people violate basic human rights of every individual. If for nothing else the world community could come together and validate their own charter of human rights.

I do firmly believe that only UNSC can save puristan, but paki government must initiate this request for international forces. It is no different than what Lebanon did in the 1980’s by asking Syrian help through OIC. I also believe that it is very dangerous for BHO to continue egging on the paki politicians. If anything US must understand that ruling elite in puristan are corrupt to the core and they can not manage their own people, no matter how much aid is given.

RiazHaq #55 Can you name one thing in US democracy that Pakistan should adopt?

Hamid mian,

actually it seems to me that afghanistan is in a much better state than puristan is. shortly, america will be teaching pushtoons in kandahar how to grow pomegranates. do you remember, several months ago, i informed you about this?

as a reminder the strategic depth that pakis created in afghanistan, is actually in puristan. these paki created zalibans moved to puristan.

i have known for several years now that afghan pushtoons hated pakis, and now paki pushtoons also dislike punjoos. why is it, hamid mian?

Bubba Mian:

Pakistan has been among the largest supplier troop in before U.N. and U. N. madated presence in troubled spots. Sending the U.N. would be like sending Pakistani forces with hand cuffs on.

This love affair with negative news from Pakistan, certainly gives heartbuns to many here, but it could well be to get $10 billion package cleared through the Congress. Would you and Hamidm mian would like to take bets with me on the amount of news we hear once the package is passed by the Congress.

Re: # 55

Riaz:

"Masses are asses"

Be happy, if that is what it does to tickle your fancy. You are looking at present and future from the glasses so throughly colored in the past.

There is more in democracy than is obvious to the believers of "Masses are asses". You may like to start reading from Cromwell who attacked and changed the British. No Taxataion without representation that and Power of Ballot is more than the power of Bullet.

Pakistan too will have its own democracy.

Re: # 52

bubba mian,

..... i would love for an 'international force' to bring some order to pakistan but the world does not have enough forces to restore order in raja bazar rawalpindi, let alone the swat valley or the rest of pakistan ....... an international force in pakistan would be like one man pissing on a forest fire in california (even if he is a big man like tahmed) ..... nato with all its might (and a few frenchmen) has has been trying to control afghanistan for the last eight years without any results and they are a bunch of amateurs compared to us pakis ......

.... sorry, but you horrible hindoos are next in line after us pakis to be verily fckued .........

Re: # 54 "Indian brand they need to listen to bollywood jingles, watch TV and go to listen bollywood actors/actresses, cricket team and politicians being jamuraas. Indian election is a big tamasha, and it could not have competition from cricket, that is why politicians threw IPL out to South Africa. Only one tamasha at a time."

Alexander Hamilton, one of America's founding fathers, said "Masses are asses". And that remained true in America until the Civil war which was the turning point in America's industrial revolution and significant literacy growth. That's why the voting rights in America remained restricted to property-owning white males for a long time. It was not until the voting rights act in the 1960s that US became a real democracy. Some people believe the modern US corporations and their wealth have turned the clock back . The corporate-owned media and corporate-sponsored/funded politicians are now ruling the country.

Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Naqshbandi sahib:

There is no single democracy. The U.S., Brit democracies may require literacy, because they need to listen, read and understand their leaders, and watch also.

Not Indian brand or Pakistani brand, if and when it comes into reality.

Indian brand they need to listen to bollywood jingles, watch TV and go to listen bollywood actors/actresses, cricket team and politicians being jamuraas. Indian election is a big tamasha, and it could not have competition from cricket, that is why politicians threw IPL out to South Africa. Only one tamasha at a time.

Pakistani brand, if you have to believe Hamidm sahib, will be danda shining boot, gora badan, and washed with hamam sabun. If you believe Masadi Mian then it is elite, C.W. Mills all the way, even if awam does not understand, because he does. If it is Urstruly and Zeemax, just wait for Taliban.

Re: #52

No Sir! If Pakistanis don’t want to save Pakistan then no international force, America, Russia or China can save Pakistan. It is just like your son, if he is determined not to pass an exam despite all your force it wont’ work. He will fail no matter what.

Hamid mian,

why can't you agree to my opinion that puristan and it's state could only be saved by pakis asking the unsc to send international forces to take care of it's current problem?

puristan can not go forward in its current form.

hamidm #50: I assume you are using the Royal "We" in "Humarey". You certainly are not talking for the Pakistani electorate, per past voting records.

Re: # 49

tahmed mian,

..... and i keep on trying to tell you that 'democracy hamaray mijaz kay mutabig nahin hai' ....... people who look to the pirate state of medina and the abominable four, respect strong and ruthless rulers like mo of mecca, omar ibn khattab, king hassan of morocco, saddam hussein and hosni mubarak ....... you cannot put lipstick on a camel and make it trot like a horse .......

...... baitullah mehsud zindabad! (unless general kiyani can pre-empt him)

#48 as i recall your prediction was that the "droopy eyed one" wasnt coming back. not predictions judgements of the SC. but anyway..

you and i have always been on different wave lengths - you talk about personalities (musharraf vs zardari), i talk about systems (dictatorship vs democracy). You seem unable to think outside the box of a dictatorship - i.e. you would prefer a beardless scotch-drinking dictator and fear that you will get a bearded chicken-fking dictator instead.

i been trying all these months and years to tell you that a democracy ultimately works better than a dictatorship for the obvious reason that there are checks and balances that dont exist in a dictatorship. It doesnt matter if the "unwashed masses" are not as smart as you. They just need to be smart enough to know whom to vote for - and so far they have done a fine job at that (arguably, better than the US electorate that put that dud Bush in for a second term). Why is this simple point not getting through to you?

Re: # 47

tahmed mian,

..... i have been proven right on the droopy eyed pco judge - the man who released maulana abdul aziz and other terrorists ..... there are a lot of people who wish that musharraf was still around and sheikh rashid will be back if they ever have another election in pakistan (which is highly doubtful) ........... but you are right on kashmir - i think the kashmiris are better off living under the heel of the horrible hindoos ..... as a matter of fact, all of mankind will be safer if all moslems are ruled by other folks ..........


p.s. did you see the enemployable lawyers beating the crap out of each other over the elections of the lahore bar! .... these are the people who restored droopy

hamidm: given your track record on predictions (musharraf the rising sun, CJ the setting sun, lota rashid the eternal sun, kashmir banega pakistan), i prefer not to bet on your latest prediction (hamidm banega fked-up taleban).

Re: # 45

tahmed mian,

.... i hate to disturb an ostrich, but i would like to point out that most polls and public opinion surveys show that the taliban have widespread support in fata and swat ....... and if you believe the 'man in the street' interviews on tv, it seems that they also have the support of the common man in liberty market lahore ........ even the 'military' does not support the military action! ...... most jawans and low ranking officers will cross over to the taliban when they feel the odds are on their side ....... hundreds of soldiers are already surrendering to a dozen or so rag-tag taliban armed with light weapons ......... it is a matter of time before an armored brigade or an infantry division switches over to al-lah's side ..... remember these people are inspired by mo of mecca and khalid-bin-walid, not washington and jefferson .........

.... verily, we are fckued

#44 hamidm: Pakistani morality may be limited, but it is present. When there own homes and relatives in Pakistani cities were threatened, Pakistanis suddenly realized that the taliban were not behaving like muslims. There is no question that this military action has public support behind it. So, verily, it is the taliban who are fked. As they say, give a mullah rope long enough, and he will hang himself.

Re: # 43

tahmed mian,

.... it is not just imran khan who has been bitten by the desert camel flea ...... just watch the interviews with ordinary members of civil society and the unwashed masses on any of the half dozen paki tv channels - most of them support the taliban to some degree .......... like you would say, 'alhamdolillah, we are all moslems and sharia should be imposed all over the country, not just in swat and buner" .......... that is why, instead of fighting, two platoons of fc jawans and a dozen police officers surrenderd to the taliban ........

..... like this fat cat from liberty market said on ary tv, "we are all taliban" ..... and that is why i say, verily we are fckued .........

#42 using my 10 years of experience on chowk in Search for signs of Intelligent Life, i wrote to imran khan's office inquiring if imran khan possessed a brain. i got a response claiming imran khan is not a supporter of the taliban, and provided links to his videotaped speech of 4/28 when he actually found a flaw in the taliban. a minor blemish actually (saying that flouting the swat agreement was a violation of the Quran).

i asked them if imran khan had expressed any concern for the two sets of basic rights implicit in the swat agreement - one for the swati people for whom laws would be determined by individual with the most guns, and one for the rest of pakistan for who laws would be determined by individuals with the most votes. i am awaiting a reply.

...... i think obama is the real culprit ...... instead of shutting down guantanamo he should construct a few more cells to hold people like imran khan, sufi mohammad and the crews from mansoora, akora khattak and muridke .......

...... i am quickly coming to the conclusion that we will have to send in the marines to clean up the mess in swat ..... but why do i have to pay more taxes and share the white man's burden .... i am not white?

@Naqshbandi
Political Norms of Oxford.....what a joke
He is just following the Jamaat Islami way of politics

People vote those politicians who would help them survive in this sytem of corruption and incompetence. They vote for polticians who would protect them from police, who would get them through the gauntlets of court and patwari, and those who would help them and their families get jobs. They would vote for all the polticians who would help them with sifarash and bribes even for their legitimate work. The people do not vote for politicians like Imran Khan because they think that this man is too straight. He would never do what a corrupt poitician do for them i.e. get their legitimate and illegitimate work done.

So what happens if there are ten Imran Khan's in National Assembly - giyarah bhi hotay tou kia ukhair latey; these ten people cannot compete with 575 corrupt ones. That is the reason when Sufi Mohammad Sahib says that this Democracy is kuffar, he is absolutely right. There is no chance in hell for righteousnes in this system of corruption and incompetence.

Sorry to say, but the article is crap and on baseless facts.
Probably writers needs to gather some solid facts about the situation and all and then write his article again.

i think imran made some valid criticisms and some naive ones too...

still he is, at least, not corruptable and would make a great prime minister or president if the pakistani system wasnt so fcuked up. his problem is he is too honest for paki politics. he is applying the political norms of Oxford to a third-world country where the majority are illiterate. Democracy first requires literacy.

i agree with taqil17, Im the Dim must also confess adultery in FATA and be ready for stoning to death

hamidm #34 "besides, one gets tired of the taliban position, which is about as exciting as the christian missionary position ......... i hope this explains my position "

hmmmmmmm...what position were you in that you are trying to explain with reference to these other position?

Re: # 27

bj mian,

.... the answer is simple: gentlemen prefer blondes ..... besides, one gets tired of the taliban position, which is about as exciting as the christian missionary position ......... i hope this explains my position - masadi sahib is a virgin and that's why he doesn't talk about such things ...

Very well put, Mr Shakoor. It is rare to agree 100% with a political commentary but this is a case in point as far as I am concerned. Well done.

Frankly this is the best liberal backlash I have seen. THIS IS WHAT IS NEEDED TO BUILD A POLITICAL WILL!!!!!!and rage to trounce this "accoodative" non sense people like Shirren Mazari Imran and above all this non sensical greedy media has been saying

hassan I have gone throguh your article several times. Once again I will say it was sheer brilliance. Please do send it to Dawn or the News also.

hassan I have gone throguh your article several times. Once again I will say it was sheer brilliance. Please do send it to Dawn or the News also.

He is still"confused khan" even had spend more than decade in politics.
I have had never forget the ptv. live talk show program which was conduct by Talat Hussain in those day.This was hot topic just after incident of 911.confused khan was arguing about "why US invade on Afghanistan in reaction of 911, without any proof,evidence against al qaeda and taliban involvement.
Talat Hussain made him dumb by saying:Our govt. give full court declared proof against terrorist criminal riaz basra and company,but taliban had refused to handover them to Pakistan.
that's blunder of people who can expected their commitments and honor in implementation of their "nizamay adal" in sawat.
they have only "nizamay bullet,bomb and blast".

Re: # 12
Imran khan was not angel any point of time....now he is trying to be....

Imran Khan is doing exactly what any opportunist politician should do! he is playing to the galleries! He knows which side his toast is buttred on!The rising tide or the creeping menace of the dirty rogues or rabid animals called the Taliban is the future of Pakistan. People like Mr. Khan are just investing in the future he will make an excellent foreign minister in the Islamic Emirates of the Taliban and people like Hamid Mir or Ansar abbasi can be the information minister for the grand cleric and the future Ameer-Ul Momineen of the Islamic Republic of Talibanistan. If Mr. Khan thinks that the Taliban are Gods gift to humanity he should first call back his children from London and get them educated in some madrasshah like the famous Lal Masjid of Islamabad. Mr. Khan and his Ilk are hell bent on destroying this fair land through he curse of obscurantism and religious fanaticism please spare us Mr. Khan! Why dont you offer your services to Mullah Omar or Usama Bin Ladin? You are already doing an excellent job as their representative and mouthpiece!Please do not be blind to reality WAKE UP before you destroy everything in the name of religion!

Hamidm2 miaN, I have often wondered and perhaps you can explain using your great insight into the Pakistani mind...

(Masadi miaN shied away from doing so.)

Why do the Imran Khans of Pakistan only go for goree mems? I mean, what is wrong with a burqawali Pakistani khatoon?!

Re: # 20

bj mian,

.... masadi mian's 'underlying pathology' is the result of his inability to secure an H1-B visa like the the horrible hindoo code coolies and paki cab drivers ..... the lesson to be learnt here is to make sure your kids don't waste their time on earning degrees in sociology or learning 'skills' that don't have a market in america ........

With the recent Taliban gains in and around Swat valley, there has been rising concern in Pakistan, even among the Islamist leaders. “According to my knowledge, Taliban have seized control of Buner District too after the Swat valley,� JUI Chief Maulana Fazlur Rehman said a couple of days ago, adding that militants are moving closer to Tarbela Dam from Hazara. “What kind of a message was given to the world by singing deal with a banned militant outfit,� he questioned.

Taking on Tehreek-e-Nifaz-e-Shariat-e-Muhammadi (TNSM) chief Sufi Muhammad, Jamaat-e-Islami (JI) leader Syed Munawar Hassan has called him a ‘kafir’ (unbeliever), according to media reports.

Talking to the media after meeting with Khaksar Tehreek chief Hamidud Din Almashraqi, Hassan said Muhammad had fought counselor elections’ in the past, so he should refrain calling the constitution and National Assembly members’ ‘un-Islamic’.

Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Hassan that was a brilliant article. I have tried to explain this strange behaviour of urban middle class people like Imran in my articlw about urban middle class also

Masadi miaN, have you investigated the option of entering politics?! I mean, the Pakistani crowds are just crazy enough to vote for you -- don't be scared off by the hostile reaction of chowkwallas here!

If Imran Khan can wing it as a genuine politician -- hey, why not you?! I mean, even Manto has political aspirations. Aaap kissi se kumm haiN, kya?!!

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Masadi miaN, please accept my apology if I touched any raw nerves!

I mean, that would go a LONG way in explaining your underlying pathology.

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Khan hamara sher hey
baaqi BS heer pher hey....

Read that you morons.

Sir Masadi, Yes, it's possible. ;)

don't badmouth the khan, he reads masadi and speaks truth to power....that clip deliberately decontextualizes his comments, which do not constitute a support of the Taliban rather a criticism of the powers that be and US BS in the region.

TNITC masadi

I followed the link at the top of this article and read Imran Khan's piece. That was one of the stupidest things I have ever read. The Imran Khan guy appears to be a total idiot and it is likely because of idiots like him that Pakistan finds itself in its current predicament.

hello! ..... imran khan is not a fool, he is a canny politician who has correctly read the mind of the unwashed masses and 'civil society' - a mind that has been numbed by the azan than was blared into their ear when they were a few days old ........... verily, we are fckued!

Imran is a fallen angel.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rs9xAt_raUY

Imran Khan tells with wild-eyed enthusiasm that it's a war btw Haves and Have-Nots (Present Setup Vs Talibans) & Taliban justice system is the best.

If that's so why he tried to be centrepiece in the restoration of Justice Iftekhar Chowdhary? Why he's all over the place on Long March?

Imran is fallen angel.

He shud start growing beard now & stop going to India and meeting sultry Koel Puries and glam dolls in Bombay. If Taliban sees his escapades they'd give him lashes on b[]tt cheeks.

I really don’t want to waist my time on writing about Imran Khan ,but anytime I read his statements he sounds so confuse, first this guy does not have any political wisdom of a politician, he does not have any agenda, he used to criticize Nawaz Sharif but now he is following him, his mentality is like QAZI HUSSAIN and I believe Qazi is his mentor in politics, they both love politics of agitation. He says one thing and does something else, he is a guy who could not keep his marriage but he claims to be a leader and wants to run the country. All of sudden he does not like liberals in Pakistan because liberals are against what Taliban are doing in Pakistan, he forgets that he was married to a western woman and another woman in west claims to be his kid’s mother, anyhow that’s his personal life and I have no right to talk about it but Imran is upset because liberals in Pakistan are criticizing Taliban, so my question to him is that is it ok to blow girls schools, hang dead bodies to poles and trees, is suicide bombing ok? I think he is confuse and thinks like liberals are against religion, but that is not the issue and that is not even Islam of our Holy Prophet Mohammad(PBUH),What Taliban are doing is ignorance but not Islamic. I never been cricket fan but when Imran Khan came into politics, I thought it was the last chance of hope, however after more than 12 years, IK has still not proved his leadership potential and the nation who is waiting for a leader is still in wait. H e does not have any political bone in his body and does not have any political principles, its amazing he called Nawaz Sharif a thief in the beginning of his political career and later moved towards nawaz, on one side he and his X wife wrote hardliner Islamic columns in Pakistani newspapers but at the same time were busy spending the most liberal life in a conservative country like Pakistan , even after 12 years in politics, he is a 1 man show in his own party, he tries to ally with the moderates through his personality and then sits with the hardliner conservatives like Qazi Hussain he bravely talks about Baluchistan and FATA and NWFP but has also failed to visit these areas to prove his actions more than words . If he has an original conviction to change Pakistani society, he should come out of this quagmire of old used up politicians like Qazi Hussian Nawaz etc, That will be surely the onset of his political success. His PTI lacks of internal party democracy and the fact that if something were to happen to IK, the party would completely disintegrate. I do not view the PTI of IMRAN KHAN as a vehicle for change. looking attractive is not required in politics. Politics requires total devotion, honesty, total freedom from racial and ethnic bias and a total commitment to improve the lot of a country's oppressed people .He's failed because he started off as a leader of change but instead came out another dual-faced politician. He has a strange state of mind, he entered in politics with the slogan that he is against corrupt politicians but then chose to get into alliance with the same politicians, as well as the decades old power brokers of the conservative parties. I think Imran needs to quit politics and should coach young cricketers because after 10 years he is riding on other politicians shoulders and does not have any political agenda.It is really surprising that he is highly educated but he doe not have any inspirational qualities .If he was Pakistan’s OBAMA,he could change a lot and like Z.A.BHUTTO he could gather huge crowds around but he does not have any qualities of a politician.

Taliban , in a recent meeting with tableeghi Jamaat mullahs, told them that members of Tableeghi jamaat were sisters for them as Talbeeghi Mullahs are afraid of picking guns and limited themselves to girly activities of "dawa with peace."...

I am not sure if they are planning to send Choorian to Raiwind or not...

Imran Khan is not a polotican. This is the only thing that is wrong with him. He should stop being politician, instead he should become Rush Limbaugh of Pakistani politics. He can be the rule changer, he can keep politicians honest, he can keep army on toe. I doubt he would have the same sway over Taliban.

He is a national name, for three generations of Pakistanis. Everyone knows him by his name, by his face and by his voice.

He should start a TV program, instead of Rush Limbahugh's radio program. It will soon be the highest watched TV program in Pakistan. This role will suit him in every way, and he would be loved again.

Imran Kan has some mental illness. May be dementia.

Hasan Sahib,

You are right. We are coming!!! You are in deep siht !!

Imran Khan is not alone in being misguided about the Taliban. Though I personally like Imran Khan for all of his philanthropic work that helps many desperately poor and needy Pakistanis, I think he continues to be clueless about what it means to appease the Taliban. If the Taliban do succeed, people like him will be their first victims, given his own background as a westernized person who has engaged many "non-Islamic" acts in his past.

I think he should begin to take his cues from people like Maulana Fazlur Rahman who is clearly worried about the Talibs coming over the Margalla Hills to establish the kind of Shariah that scares even the Maulana. Even JI's Munawwar Hasan is expressing his doubts about Sufi Mohammad's Shariah which considers Pakistan's Chief Justice (of whom Imran is a supporter), Supreme Court and judiciary and electoral process un-Islamic.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Straight from the heart, this article , I would say, and most eloquent. Imran always came across as a well meaning guy thinking of Pakistan's wellbeing as a state. He might have just strayed a little.

Yes. I was also disappointed by Imran's article published a few days back...

Imran Khan was best at playing cricket... And then at fund raising... He should limit himself to the things he is good at...

Dear Hasan Shakoor sahib,

A well written article that I for one consider a propaganda material (albeit a negative one) for some uninitiated people to give IK reprieve of his rather useless political history. He comes to the US asks for money from the unsuspecting pakis and then goes back to punjoo land talking bad about the US. He does not want to acknowledge that most pakis (unlike punjoos) are mostly pro-us, and hence find this trait in ik rather disturbing,. Of course slowly but surely some punjoos are beginning to realize that punjoostan should be re-tooled as a society. Pakis are used to the reverse psychology that usually is used on a child. punjoostan is such a place. whether it is their ganja leader or their islam khatrey mein hein naray baaz leaders, eik hee thalee kay gundey baigan hein. Have you not seen lately the pro-kashmiri lota's are quite silent these days? at least on this chowk, these kashmiri lota are trying very hard to divert any discussion of seriousness into a feud between india-pakistan. no mater what one watches on tv indians have won the game, and writ of pakiland in limited.

when the us recently warned the pakis to take care of the militancy in nwfp and if they won't the us would, i thought that come end of june, when the next indian regime is in place, india should give the same warning.

they can atleast take away AK from the pakis, and na rahey ga baanz, na bajeigee baansari. all those kashmiris residing in punjoostan will be shafted once again. this time by their brothers. remember even the saraikis are tired with punjoos politics, which semms to get them nowhere.

Dear Hasan Shakoor

Thank you Sir for saying it as it is, its about time. Just one caveat, what makes you think Imran Khan is any different from those who he defends? Ferociously ethnic defines Mr Khan, a=his entire life reflects his prejudices may it be cricketing buddies or his choice of marriage or political allies, Mr Khan represents the classic male chauvinist with his head up his ass.