Speculations on Female Sexuality and Religion

Re: # 52

tahir

No sir, I cannot agree with your interpretation which is hardly supported by the text which reads as under:

"# 2:36 (Asad) But Satan caused them both to stumble therein, and thus brought about the loss of their erstwhile state. [29] And so We said: "Down with you, [and be henceforth] enemies unto one another; and on earth you shall have your abode and your livelihood for a while !" [30]"

Mind, Satan was doing all this under a license from Allah for leading people astray as he had alleged Allah had done the same to him by ordering him to bow before Adam, a Non-Allah (gher-allah) made of petty earth, against His most strict standing order for not doing so.

Moreover, the real enemy of the man was his anti-human, woman, who in collusion with the Satan brought down his downfall from heaven and made his life miserable in this world.

Re: # 50
Shah sahib,

"Down with you, [and be henceforth] enemies unto one another; and on earth you shall have your abode and your livelihood for a while !" [30]"

What does this phrase '[and be henceforth] enemies unto one another;'. I wonder: Does this internecine 'enmity' applies to all humanity or only between the man and the woman, in reference with whom it was stated here by the creator?

----------------------------

Enmity exists between humankind and Iblees, and not between Man and Woman (they're made for one another!). Please read all the verses about )Iblees/Satan and you'll come to know the truth.

:)

A correction to my previous post #50:

The word 'mean' may please be added at the end of the third line from bottom.

Re: # 46

tahir

Thank you for the courteous response.

Your query seemed to be vague. However I found the following references from the 'islamicity.com' which I think relevant to the topic:

"2.34, 17.61, 20.120, 20.121, 7.22"

While going through the Quran this verse struck me:

"# 2:36 (Asad) But Satan caused them both to stumble therein, and thus brought about the loss of their erstwhile state. [29] And so We said: "Down with you, [and be henceforth] enemies unto one another; and on earth you shall have your abode and your livelihood for a while !" [30]"

especially the following portion of it:

"Down with you, [and be henceforth] enemies unto one another; and on earth you shall have your abode and your livelihood for a while !" [30]"

What does this phrase '[and be henceforth] enemies unto one another;'.

I wonder: Does this internecine 'enmity' applies to all humanity or only between the man and the woman, in reference with whom it was stated here by the creator?

Re: # 47
Regards,

Please find your answers in my I-log at:

http://chowk.com/ilogs/71849/30139

Re: # 47

Regards,

Find your answers here:

http://chowk.com/ilogs/71849/30139

#43 Tahir
I do not see anything private about discussion on Suras of Quran. I'm not asking you what to recommend to my daughter. That is my business. But your answer will guide me in deciding what to do.

Quran is recommended by yourself as God's book. Are these Suras authentic? Are they applicable and mandatory for all muslims? Do you consider women deciding their own lives/ careers as a prejudice to islam?

Do such Suras guide an ordinary muslim's life? Will you/ he consider women subordinate to you?

Thanks in advance for clear answers with no contorted verbiage;

Re: # 41
Shah sahib,

Please provide me with the reference for:

"Eve, was also provided to Adam, later on, at his own request, born out of that very 'disease' about which the Allah in His Quran warns the woman to be wary."

Subconsciously men are afraid of the potential power that female sexuality can have over them. It is the fear of losing control that makes all patriarchal societies devise ways to curb manifestations of female sexuality. The society may use religion or cultural norms to ensure that women from very early on in their lives are put in their assigned places.
Since education is the first step of releasing this power, throughout the ages and in multiple civilizations the education of girls has been a highly debated topic. For example one of the concerns shown against teaching girls to write is that they may start writing to their lovers.

#40 Your women folk must be a mess for you. My three daughters hold engineers degree with two of them PhD's and one MBA. Two of them hold managerial positions in well know organisations.

They are very rational & professional people and certainly making a mess of philosophical text of bygone authors is not their speciality.

Re: # 38
Re-guards,
"How about Suras from Gods book -Quran? Are they authentic? Do you agree and follow what is mentioned....? I've 3 daughters and one of them is in love with a Muslim boy who seems to love her too. I wonder if I should stop her!!!"

Chowq will soon start a religious Q/A column which I will handle.

:)

Ask these questions privately please.

Regards,

I don't know whether you can stop your daugther, or whether you should.

Here is a discussion that may be of some help.

http://www.sukh-dukh.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=21326&p=1

Re: # 35

tahir

"That term Qurani Allah sounds very insulting. Who taught you that?"

It was Qurani Iblees perhaps who did not want to insult Allah even at the risk of his condemnation by bowing before Adam, a 'gher-allah'(a No-God, made from earth), but was given a licence by Allah to lead people astray instead.

Mind, angels were made to bow only before Adam, a man, whereas the woman, Eve, was also provided to Adam, later on, at his own request, born out of that very 'disease' about which the Allah in His Quran warns the woman to be wary.

A correction to my post at #34:

The sentence 'What is this 'disease' in the hearts of men which flares up even by a soft spoken word by a woman?' may be corrected to read:

'What is rhe treatment of this disease...et seq'

Re: # 38

((((I've 3 daughters and one of them is in love with a Muslim boy who seems to love her too. I wonder if I should stop her!!! ))))

Plz stop her.Why should a Muslim family suffer the mess you have created.

Re: # 38

((((I've 3 daughters and one of them is in love with a Muslim boy who seems to love her too. I wonder if I should stop her!!! ))))

Plz stop her.Why should a Muslim family suffer the mess you have created.

#37 Thanks. It is a plausible response as far as hadiths go.

How about Suras from Gods book -Quran? Are they authentic? Do you agree and follow what is mentioned by boowhoo?

I've 3 daughters and one of them is in love with a Muslim boy who seems to love her too. I wonder if I should stop her!!!

Re: # 36

Re-guards,

Miss Leenah didn't refer to ME in her post (right Leenah?).

Who misguided you about my seeing abilities?

"Do you agree to what Quran and hadiths say?"

I've expressed enough about the dubious Ahadith to make many retire prematurely at Chowq! Many narrations go against the spirit of the Quran (and of the Prophets) and don't really explain anything except burden us with chains of narrators! God's Book is self-explanatory and quite sufficient.

I don't know what you wish to hear now.

#Tahir,

You seem to have not seen the boowhoo's post no 30 but have seen hamidm2 in #29, tehshah's #34 and leenah's 31.

Are you a case of short sightedness as mentioned by leenah in #31.

Do you agree to what Quran and hadiths say?

Re: # 34
"....Qurani Allah advising women not to be courteous to men as it may lead to arousal of the disease inherent in their hearts."

That term Qurani Allah sounds very insulting. Who taught you that?

"What is this 'disease' in the hearts of men which flares up even by a soft spoken word by a woman?"

As a man you ought to know what DISEASE the Book's referring to.

"Castration, perhaps?"

No, not that! A thrashing from one's wife perhaps!

A good topic indeed and a timely one at that. But why did the writer forgot to mention the saying of the Qurani Allah advising women not to be courteous to men as it may lead to arousal of the disease inherent in their hearts.

What is this 'disease' in the hearts of men which flares up even by a soft spoken word by a woman? Castration, perhaps?

Re: # 31

Be our guest!

I've tried knocking sense into foolish heads.

Re: # 29
"he is a public figure and runs the same risk of ridicule as paris hilton and hanuman the monkey king .........."

Are these the opening lines from your COMPLETE IDIOT'S GUIDE TO RELIGION?

What a loser; I've lost all hope in you.

But wait, I must pray for your departed soul.

Re: #29

If a person has no ear for music, that does not nullify Bethoven's stature. If a person can not understand Schrodinger's wave equation, that does not put quantum physics to rest.
If you have a weak sight and still insist on reading the book without spectacles, you can not blame the Author for not being comprehendable.

Its neither the Quran, nor the sunnah that suffers from the ignorance of the person. Nay, the loss is not their!

The Qur'an:

Sura (4:11) - (Inheritance) "The male shall have the equal of the portion of two females" (see also Sura (4:176)).

Sura (2:282) - (Court testimony) "And call to witness, from among your men, two witnesses. And if two men be not found then a man and two women." Muslim apologists have sometimes creatively tried to explain why a woman's testimony is worth half that of a man's under Islamic law (based on this verse) while still attempting to maintain the semblance of equality. Unfortunately for them, studies consistently show that women are less likely to tell lies than men, meaning that they would make more reliable witnesses in any court - were it not for Islam's obvious sexism.

Sura (2:228) - "and the men are a degree above them [women]"

Sura (5:6) - "And if ye are unclean, purify yourselves. And if ye are sick or on a journey, or one of you cometh from the closet, or ye have had contact with women, and ye find not water, then go to clean, high ground and rub your faces and your hands with some of it" Men are to rub dirt on their hands if there is no water to purify them following casual contact with a woman (such as shaking hands).

Sura (24:31) - Women are to lower their gaze around men, so they do not look them in the eye.

Sura (2:223) - "Your wives are as a tilth unto you; so approach your tilth when or how ye will..." A man has dominion over his wives' bodies as he does his land. This verse is overtly sexual. There is some dispute as to whether it is referring to the practice of anal intercourse, which it has been used historically to justify. If this is what Muhammad meant, however, then it would appear to contradict what he said in Muslim (8:3365).

Sura (4:3) - (Wife-to-husband ratio) "Marry women of your choice, Two or three or four"

Sura (53:27) - "Those who believe not in the Hereafter, name the angels with female names." Angels are sublime beings, and would therefore be male.

Sura (4:24) and Sura (33:52) - A man is permitted to take women as sex slaves outside of marriage.


From the Hadith:



Bukhari (6:301) - "[Muhammad] said, 'Is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man?' They replied in the affirmative. He said, 'This is the deficiency in her intelligence.'"



Bukhari (6:301) - continued - "[Muhammad said] 'Isn't it true that a woman can neither pray nor fast during her menses?' The women replied in the affirmative. He said, 'This is the deficiency in her religion.'" Allah has made women deficient in the practice of their religion as well, by giving them menstrual cycles.



Bukhari (2:28) - Women comprise the majority of Hell's occupants. This is important because the only women in heaven ever mentioned by Muhammad are the virgins who serve the sexual desires of men. (A weak Hadith, Kanz al-`ummal, 22:10, even suggests that 99% of women go to Hell).



Bukhari (62:81) - "The Prophet said: "'The stipulations most entitled to be abided by are those with which you are given the right to enjoy the (women's) private parts (i.e. the stipulations of the marriage contract).'" In other words, the most important thing that a woman brings to a marriage is between her legs.



Bukhari (62:58) - A woman presents herself in marriage to Muhammad, but he does not find her attractive, so he "donates" her on the spot to another man.



Muslim (4:1039) - "A'isha said [to Muhammad]: 'You have made us equal to the dogs and the asses'"



Abu Dawud (2:704) - "...the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) said: When one of you prays without a sutrah, a dog, an ass, a pig, a Jew, a Magian, and a woman cut off his prayer, but it will suffice if they pass in front of him at a distance of over a stone's throw."



Ishaq 593 - "From the captives of Hunayn, Allah's Messenger gave [his son-in-law] Ali a slave girl called Baytab and he gave [future Caliph] Uthman a slave girl called Zaynab and [future Caliph] Umar another." - Even in this world, Muhammad treated women like party favors, handing out slave girls to his cronies for sex.



Ishaq 969 - "Men were to lay injunctions on women lightly, for they were prisoners of men and had no control over their persons." - This same text also justifies beating women for flirting.

Re: # 26

rifai mian,

..... the biggest problem with islam is the character of the prophet (pbuhahc) ...... his lifestyle and example is the root cause of taliban and wahabi extremism ..... if it weren't for the dastrardly sunnah we could easily reinterpret the koran to make islam less violent and harmful ........ think about it ...... in any case, he is a public figure and runs the same risk of ridicule as paris hilton and hanuman the monkey king ..........

Re: # 26
Rifai,
"be very careful when u r talking about Hazrat Muhammad (PBUH) & his wives (mothers of all muslims"

Join me now, I've been saying the same for a long time at Chowq!

Re: # 25
Ham-Damn2,

Born a Moslem, will die a Moslem? What do you mean MOSLEM?

Please read your interact #23, is that how a born-Moslem speaks of the Prophets and God's Word? I suggest you become a born-AGAIN Moslem because I don't see you deriving any benefit from your status at birth. Look around and see what you've been given in life while you're remained derisive towards Islam!

You act like a half-brother but THIS is my full-brotherly advice to you.

Rabb Raakha.

hi there.i just want to request u that be very careful when u r talking about Hazrat Muhammad (PBUH) & his wives (mothers of all muslims).plz think about it...

Re: # 24

tahir mian,

..... and how many times have i told you that i was born a moslem and will remain a moslem till the day i die ..... circumcisioin is an irreversible process and even though i have a morbid fear of being buried alive, i refuse to be cremated - i want to go to heaven and sleep with seventy virgins instead of burning in hell like a ordinary hindoo .........

.... on a serious note, why are moslems (and other religious bigots) so worried about what women say and do? ..... i think it has to do something to feelings of sexual insecurity and inadequacy - what do you think?

Ham-Damn-thank-you-ma'am,

How many times must you prove that you are what you truly are? If you don't like the heat, get out of the kitchen.

Happily stay an un-believer.

...... the fact that the prophet (pbuhahc) kept a stable of young fillies and a few toothless nags shows exactly where women stand in islam ...... look, i am not grudging the man his women - actually, i am envious - but, you cant be a prophet and a stud at the same time ...... and i think it was really miserly of him to restrict his followers to four wives when he himself was cavorting with a dozen legally wed wives and a few concubines that his right hand posessed ..... other than that, as a good moslem i have no problem with treating women as chattel if you can get away with it .....

Re: # 21
Mixing sarcasm with religion is what made Rushdie infamous. We don't want to walk that line, do we Fouz?

Certain things may escape ME, but not Him who has created us!

Regards.

Re: # 18
I have not singled out the Quran only. Was talking in general about this concept embedded in the major three religions. Hence the male centric scriptures of the same.

As far as the beer/football thing is concerned, there was a subtle hint of sarcasm involved; but perhaps it escaped you.

I am sure Arif if you lived in 600 A.D or 70 B.C.E you might have said similar things as the holy books you generate examples from. Can you see that along with brimstone and fire and hell and angels, humanity was in need for such rhetoric.
No intention of persuading anyone, just want to share my perspective.

Re: # 17
Fouz,

"True female emancipation will come that day when men could sit in the home and let the wife earn so they can spend her money on beer and football tickets."

Your thoughts are pure wishful thinking. I see so harm in that mode of thinking as long as you keep your thoughts to yourself.

Women have a very special status is Islam, they DO NOT have to work as long as their bread-winning husbands, fathers and brothers are alive. But if they wish to work piously and with dignity, Islam does NOT forbid it but the mullah does!

What kind of an idle man is that who drinks beer while his wife works? He must be a certified pimp.

Re: # 17
Fouz,
"One cannot rule out the male-centered focus of all the scriptures since the major religions have this original sin of Eve theory ingrained in their axiomatic teaching."

You have no clue what you're talking about! Where does the Qur'an say that it was Eve (Hawwa) who lured man on Iblees's instructions? Iblees is reported to have softened up Adam through Eve but that's just a theory. (But Satan caused them BOTH to stumble therein...Qur'an 2:36)

Their sin was forgiven once they repented, and that method of saying sorry too was taught to them there and then by God through the very first revelations!

Time to do some reading my friend.

One cannot rule out the male-centered focus of all the scriptures since the major religions have this original sin of Eve theory ingrained in their axiomatic teaching. But even then Quran has achieved the best balance in treatment towards male and females. A simple reading of the Quran and the authentic portrayal of the Prophet's attitude towards people in general and women in particular would reveal that.

Nowadays our regard for all things feminist usually starts and ends up with the issue of veil or the right to abortion, equal employment and suffrage. When we put out women for being a weak creature (in every sense of the word) and men to be ambulant images of God, we are in fact revealing our own weaknesses. Perhaps it is the fate of the son of Adam to be so cowered by women in his later days and after conquering all forces of nature to be defeated by his own lust and fears.

Having said that I do agree with Parthaab that this whole feminine misery and their having a bad deal out of this male dominated society has indeed been blown a bit too much. Or at least without presenting the other side of the picture as well. Men often have to rough it out and they are made to follow their bread winner routine strictly; and considered a failure if they do not happen to stand up to some woman's (mother, girl friend, wife) idea of a successful man. Women on the other hand have a choice of careers, and they often successfully mix it to their advantage. True female emancipation will come that day when men could sit in the home and let the wife earn so they can spend her money on beer and football tickets.

That was supposed to be addressed to AA (not AR)....

Re: # 14
AR,

I wish you well in your STRUGGLE (Jihad), but do make your point cvery clearly in religious matters and without mincing words. I've made my point so I'll see you again later.

I know the sermon you're referring to.

Regards.

Re: # 7
Tahir Sahib:
Did you miss the quote on Prophet's last sermon regarding women? Surely you can see my struggle to reconcile that against the nasty stuff against women in Hadees that cannot possibly have been said by Rasoolallah.
One of the hallmarks of intellectual security is to critically examine ourselves and our belief system, surely Allah is the one that gave me the power of intellectual reasoning, and thus cannot possibly be angry if I employ it every now and then!

Re: # 7
Tahir Sahib:
Did you miss the quote on Prophet's last sermon regarding women? Surely you can see my struggle to reconcile that against the nasty stuff against women in Hadees that cannot possibly have been said by Rasoolallah.
One of the hallmarks of intellectual security is to critically examine ourselves and our belief system, surely Allah is the one that gave me the power of intellectual reasoning, and thus cannot possibly be angry if I employ it every now and then!

Re: # 6
not sure what this dude is trying to say, perhaps it is his ancestors that wrote the Hadees in question.

Re: # 5
No offense taken at all, these are only speculations of what could have been the rationale behind the holy texts that I cited, please do note my struggle to reconcile the Hadees with what Rasoolallah had said in his last sermon!
Also note that i have hardly singled out Islam!!
Note the stuff on Jews and Christians!!

Rashid Sahib (obviously a term of respect)
Appreciate your gesture of endearment, likewise sentiments are reciprocated;
Your thoughtful responses are appreciated as well, as you can see for yourself, I confess my ignorance of Hadees freely, nevertheless, even to non-biased person as me, it appears to me for the most part as folk wisdom, codified into law, immutable and insurmountable by reason or logic of any kind!

cut n paste. I think the robot that does the editing at Chowq has run out of its batteries.

{{Surely one cannot dispute the male (Moses and Abraham) themed nature of Old Testament, Talmud and the Torrah, John the Apostle’s compilation of the Bible, revealing of the Quran by the Archangel Gabriel to Prophet Mohammad.}}

Have you not read about Mary, the Pharoah's wife, Joseph's seducer or Queen Saba in Koran? The holy books are full of discussion about women. Koran has lot of verses and Chapters discussing rights of women and how nice they should be treated.

Arif (friend of The Knower),

This is an incomplete article which only highlights Biblical bias towards women (and they call them woe-men!) which was introduced into Islam through the Ahadith literature.

Please quote where Allah ta'la, through the Qur'an, asks men (na'azu billah) to behave in this objectionalble fashion towards a creation which is supposed to provide spiritual and physical comfort to men (and vice versa)?

The West just loves throwing these Ahadith bricks at us. Please don't join them in this.

Regards.

Your brother in faith.

The trick that they usually employ is this one.

The women's groups come up with a load of hocus-pocus that makes men out to be better treated than women, or that they are far more abusive than is currently recognised. They base these lies on virtually anything that they can get their hands on.

Air will do.

Their feminist cronies in the media wet themselves with delight and publish the falsehoods with large headlines accompanied by exaggerated tales of female misery and woe.

The public is outraged. The politicians are blackmailed (literally) into supporting their malicious causes both vocally and with funding. If they refuse, they are publicly and vociferously castigated as being closet supporters of violence against women and child abuse etc.

In the meantime, the men's groups have no funding to test or to counteract the 'research' and they do not have very much access to willing accomplices in the mainstream media. So there is no protest, and no public outrage at the feminist lies.

http://www.angryharry.com/eswerewomenoppressedinthewest.htm

A few years later, with any luck, someone, somewhere, manages to prove that the feminist groups were lying all along, but it hardly gets a mention in the media. Besides which, it's too late. The damage has been done. The female population has been enraged successfully against men for a few years over the matter (and over all the other slanders against men that are running concurrently) the laws have quickly been changed to disadvantage men, and the feminists just keep coming up with other lies to replace them.

Assalam to every1
hey i'm a new member here at chowk & i'll be sorry if i m going to offend u by giving comments at this matter.so plz excuse me & be kind.
first of all u stated some Hadith along with their references. now i don't know that from where have u read them i mean from which book because in good books by good scholars they write & explain the background, situation, reason & its implementation today.so if u will check it u normally don't have a doubt.
secondly matter is that when we have a doubt about a hadith with an authentic reference, we normally questioned about its authenticity.actually the problem is that we don't really know the position of Hadith in Islam, its background,its compilation (which my dear fellow said that hadith were compiled after 200 years & the truth is that many companions e.g Hazrat Ali RA has a collection of hadith with them in the life of Hazrat Muhammad PBUH).further details & references will be provided if u r interested.
the role of women in a society which sorry to say we don't know & realize. a women is stated as a key to ultimate success (ticket to Jannah)as "a mother", a key to very peaceful & successful life in the world as "a wife", a blessing of Allah Talah for both the lives (this & the other) as "a daughter" but their is no status of women as a friend,girlfriend,prostitute, mistress,legal partner (lesbian),blah blah blah...i can provide u further details on the role & significance of women in Islam & its role in building a strong moral structure of a society & in its destruction. but keep in mind that the responsibility of a women is on four men (father,brother,husband & son)so man is also held responsible & will face the consequences if not fulfilling his responsibilities & duties.
i have to go but i can provide further details at this topic.
forgive me if i have offended u in any way
Allah Hafiz

Arif Mian( a term of endearment)
Let us define “Religion�-- Set of spiritual dogmas pertaining to theology propagated by the Priests and Clergy of that particular religious “Church� (Church is a generic term).
Hence every Religion has its own Church.
Jews, Christians, Hindus, Buddhists etc all have their own Churches, and Muslims (People of all sects and denominations) huddled under the cover-name of Islam, that is of Quranic teachings, have their various churches as well.
BUT ISLAM HAS NO CHURCH AND HENCE NO PRIESTHOOD (Quran Ref. 10-35,36)

It is obvious that you have quoted from various Hadis, the corpus of apocrypha from Central Asia compiled two centuries after Quran.
Any body with slight knowledge of Quran knows that what ever ‘God Said’ came down to the believers through ‘inspiration’ to Muhammad and ALL that is in his Risaalah called Quran, and that is why he is a Rasool.
Out side his Risaalah there is no room for any other hadis. “Then in which hadis will they then believe in ( Quran Ref 45-6, 7-185).

When talking about gender issues in Islam, one should quote the original and not the ‘Number Two’- a term one is given to understand, commonly used in the sub-continent for every thing “Naqlee�. But Quran is “the best Hadis for Believers it says. (Ref 39-23�).

Now the matter under discussion—MAN is afraid of the ‘disease in his own heart’ and for example, to restrain himself transgressing the accepted norms of civilized society has put the whole burden of his protection on the Female, so much so that the mere sight of her clad-body excites him and so he has covered her from tip to toe ( often in black or blue in Afghanistan). To enforce this he has taken the prop of “Religion� by giving the apocrypha you quoted, the holy status! In doing so he has forgotten the fact that God “….covers all evil doers as it were, with pieces from the depth of the darkness of night…� (Ref 10-27). So MAN in his haste has opted to punish the female in advance through hadis—traditions, customs, falsehood etc!!

Iqbal had said—dil soz say khaalee hai, nighaa paak nahin
Heart is insensitive, glances are shifty!
Phir iss may ajab kiya hai keh tu bebaak nahin
It is not strange then that you are not forthright and open!!

This is a highly complex topic, and not one that can be covered in one article.
It is obvious to all those but the most blinded that religion is one of the most effective fetters of women, and that much organised religion was only founded to keep women under control. The rest is just so much window dressing,

"Could it be that we are afraid of our own taboo lust and amorous desires?"
It is obvious that sex is one issue that humans have been trying to grapple with. The power of sexual lust subjugates the warrior. Civilization until now has not learnt to be ambivalent to it like they are with other anatomical necessities. Sexual morality of medieval times still prevail in the sense that satiating sexual desire could accompany guilt. We are still conditioned in the old ways.

A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death." --Albert Einstein