Obama's Af-Pak Strategy

TrichMir#542 Fair enough. The question one needs to ask is: why did the army "fail to vanquish" the taleban in Swat? clearly, it wasnt due to lack of capability (given its air control, armor, vast disciplined, well-equipped manpower, not to mention legitimacy), as is obvious with the way just a couple of brigades are being used to knock the turbans off the taliban right now. The answer is, from what I have heard - musharraf ordering the troops to step back when they took on the taleban in 2007.

Next logical question: Why did Musharraf not launch an all-out offensive against the taleban the way the democratic government has done? I think the answer is obvious. By pointing fingers at one another (ANP, army) for allowing the Swat mess, there is a need for a proper trial of musharraf (where his dirty, self-serving role in Swat will be just another example of the many damaging things he has done to Pakistan, and the thousands of lives lost as a result.

Re: # 540 tahmed32

Please read Hasho's post #360 to know why did I mention only Pashtun casualties in my post that has apparently exasperated you.

The ANP government of Pashtunkhwa was left no other option but to strike a peace deal with the Talebans after the army had failed to vanquish them.

Read this article if you want to know who are the real friends of arby bais and the Talebans.
http://tinyurl.com/Talibanisation-Musharraf

New York Times reader comment on India going to the polls, "The world's biggest exercise in democracy"



April 15, 2009 It is truly the greatest show on Earth, an ode to a diverse and democratic ethos, where 700 million + of humanity vote, providing their small part in directing their ancient civilization into the future. It is no less impressive when done in a neighbourhood which includes de-stabilizing and violent Pakistan, China, and Burma. Its challenges are immense, more so probably than anywhere else, particularly in development and fending off terrorism -- but considering these challenges and its neighbours, it is even more astounding that the most diverse nation on Earth, with hundreds of languages, all religions and cultures, is not only surviving, but thriving.

The nation where Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, and Sikhism were born, which is the second largest Muslim nation on Earth; where Christianity has existed for 2000 years; where the oldest Jewish synagogues and Jewish communities have resided since the Romans burnt their 2nd temple; where the Dalai Lama and the Tibetan government in exile reside; where the Zoroastrians from Persia have thrived since being thrown out of their ancient homeland; where Armenians and Syrians and many others have to come live; where the Paris-based OECD said was the largest economy on Earth 1500 of the last 2000 years, including the 2nd largest only 200 years ago; where 3 Muslim Presidents have been elected, where a Sikh is Prime Minister and the head of the ruling party a Catholic Italian woman, where the President is also a woman, succeeding a Muslim President who as a rocket scientist was a hero in the nation; where a booming economy is lifting 40 million out of poverty each year and is expected to have the majority of its population in the middle class, already equal to the entire US population, by 2025; where its optimism and vibrancy is manifested in its movies, arts, economic growth, and voting, despite all the incredible challenges and hardships; where all the great powers are vying for influence, as it itself finds its place in the world. Where all of this is happening, is India, and as greater than 1/10 of humanity gets ready to vote, it is an inspiration to all the World.


- V Mitchell, New York, NY

TirchMIr: And who exactly gave "hospitality" to these animals..I mean "fellow muslims", "arby bhai"... responsible for killing 3000 innocent people on 9/11 when the US security forces came after them? Until, i.e., these "guests" turned upon their "hosts"?? And who claimed that the "Swat deal" was an internal matter between pakhtoons, and the Pakistan government should not come in the way? That's right - ANP. The same ANP whose workers you say have been killed by the taliban - but the thousands of Pakistanis killed by suicide bombings in cities across Pakistan by these animals are nowhere mentioned by you.

So stop blaming the "establishment". The "establishment" that pushed for deals was your own elected ANP - the "pakhtoonkhwa" party.

Re: # 536
Likewise the Uzbeks must consider it an an insult to see a missile being named after Babur.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Why should they consider it an insult? Babaur was not an uzbek and Uzbeks were no friends of Temurids - those who chased Babur out of Farghana were none other than Uzbeks themselves.

Hasho,

The Talebans are not the only criminals. I, personally, consider the Pakistani establishment far bigger evil between these two.

Almost 150 ANP workers, more than 500 pro-government Maliks in the TAs and thousands of anti-Taleban Pashtuns have been killed at the hands of Talebans and the establishment did absolutely nothing to save their lives. Enough blood of anti-Taleban Pashtuns has been shed so I would say keep away from this ugly war which is being fought between these two evils, let them butcher each other.

I feel sorry for the civilian population of the whole Malakand division though who has lost everything and the future of their children looks bleak if this war spreads to other areas of Frontier and lasts few years which is quite possible.

Re: # 534 Tahmed

"...reality, there are in fact very few resentments between pakistani and indian panjabis over 1947 (apparent even on chowk, where Indians not suffering from Pakistanphobia are largely panjabi in fact - pardesi, stuka etc.)..."

That's a great viewpoint. I think that the Internet blogs (e.g. Chowk) have a downside - they bring out the worst tendencies amongst some people because they can hide behind anonymity (like in a mob) and not accept responsibility for their actions or words. It also has the effect of providing a platform for some of the looney ideas that would be laughed off offline.

Perhaps, Chowk should be used to outline what the future vision all have of India-Pakistan relations and what each of these countries should look like. Once people document this, I think that one will have a basis on which to build an understanding. What do you think?

What do think the future of Pakistan should look like? India? India-Pakistan relations?

Re: # 401
One often wonders why desi Pakistanis invoke foreign names for their missiles e.g. Ghauri, Ghazani and Babur. Do they expect that the missiles will become more deadly if named after the marauders like Ghazani and Ghori whose hordes looted and raped the Hindu great great-great-great-great-great-great grandmothers of the present day Hindus-turned-Muslims-turned-Pakistanis, or is it that by naming the missiles after these haramis they think they would become closer to their Western and Northern neighbours.
Likewise the Uzbeks must consider it an an insult to see a missile being named after Babur. He is famous in Uzbekistan even today as a great poet. An Uzbek's heart warms up when you talk to him about Babur and India. Uzbeks often say that before the Russians came to them and the English came to India there were no borders between the two countries. Never a mention of Pakistan in the dialogue.
Could the Pakistanis not think of names like Allah Ditta or Kallu Mian for their missiles? These names would be closer home.

#533 nkg

[I still feel, India should seel Kashmir valley to Pakistan via Saudi Arabia and other arab countries...what Pakis beduinoids have to do is to convince their arab masters...
thats all....we will gift 1 crore musla from india...buy kashmir, get 10mn musla free.... ]

I would agree with you, except for the fact that they will immigrate back. Muslims know that they have the best time in non-Muslim lands - they can have all the rights as anybody else and keep demanding special status and keep whining constantly about a million things, while depriving minorities of basic rights in their own lands.

All countries with musla populations will be regretting the day they let the first one in. France is regretting it already. Britain is as well. As are Netherlands and Germany. Greece is not on speaking terms with Turkey - they know hwt it's like.

When oil becomes irrelevant, Westerners will take action, and make it difficult for Muslims to operate the way they usually do.

#531 Spy: You should not go by such simplistic assumptions (i.e. that there are eternal hatreds due to partition riots), since reality is stranger (i.e. more complex) than fiction (i.e. these simplistic assumptions).

If you look at reality, there are in fact very few resentments between pakistani and indian panjabis over 1947 (apparent even on chowk, where Indians not suffering from Pakistanphobia are largely panjabi in fact - pardesi, stuka etc.). And I should know something about the Pakistan side - being the son of muslims who had to leave their ancestral home behind in India, and bring terrible memories with them to Pakistan. Not once did I hear anything negative about hindus or sikhs, and pictures of a couple of female hindu friends in college were kept in the family album by my late mother for years. Even though she barely escaped getting killed herself in the train to Pakistan.

So, those who play the "victim card" the most are not the victims themselves. But the lowlife seeking an outlet for whatever personal miseries afflict them.

Re: # 530
I still feel, India should seel Kashmir valley to Pakistan via Saudi Arabia and other arab countries...what Pakis beduinoids have to do is to convince their arab masters...
thats all....we will gift 1 crore musla from india...buy kashmir, get 10mn musla free....

Re: # 177 Khyber: "Indians should not be so optimistic."

This is the only statement for which most Indians will have a different view. Rest all your comments are on target and we are working on it.

Re: # 526 tahmed32: both these nut jobs mentioned in #525 were from South India. So much for "except for the very few in the North Indian states bordering Pakistan."

While in North india you will find many families affected by partition and having faced its consequences directly to have their own opinions and personal feelings, there are hardly any in the remaining parts of India.

The examples you mentioned could be more of an exception. The number of such persons could be increasing due to the Pak adventurism and the increased media exposure.

Also as majumdar (#527) put it that it also true.

#515 Miyan Madani : "The time will come when India is disintegrating to attack at proper time tosnatch, even better is to wait for ripe fruit falls in our lap then just go and pick it up and put in bag. Patience is virtue. Presently the strategic blunder of starting three wars and hidden enemy usa who wants to snatch crown jewels like aopportunistic chief, this is wrong policy and wrong policy also takes time to get posionous fruits. Presently will be wise to declare peace on India and go after Ts."

Your bedouin culture of Islam took birth and can survive only in times of war. Peace at the borders means infighting among your muslim tribes. You really have no choice other than fighting some one. Habits dont disappear. Especially when Quran is there to remind.

As you correctly assessed, India- Hindu culture, is based on peaceful living. Like an elephant, some minor wars here and there do not make it loose its intent and temperament. Using force and intimidation does not go far. On the contrary it enhances the resolve to withstand them.

Many here, including Hamidm, who know only force, may never realize that the only time people in India thought of letting Kashmir go was when recently there was a peace movement and a discusion on the status of Pundits was seriously mooted.

Our way of doing things is different. Indian culture finds its strength in discussion not in show of force. You may have to wait well after muslim states have disappeared to see India disintegrate.

I do care not only for AllahRakhis but also Dr. Gyan Prakash of Mingora. If we care for Bakiland, it's because of those innocent AllahRakhis and her progeny and well meaning folks like Dr. Gyan Prakash.

Bhola,

"guru dev,

{{India needs to evaporate these Anglicized Talibs in Pindi and I'bad first.}}

Yeah right...& then when we proceed to dip our lingums in the irradiated Ganges, we will all become sterile---population problem solved."

Bholanath Aap to Bade Candle Kisser Nikale!

"get out of this dangerous delusion that a nuclear war can be "won".

the scary part is there are enough buttheads like you on both sides that believe that.."

Yeh ButtHead Kya Hota Hain! Did you mean Head Bhat ie Anglicized or Shero Shayari Karanewala Bamanya? Please tell me if we can develop like Neutron Bum, a Bum to kill all the Anglicized Gandu Baman Gopi's progeny like our dear Dimwit Gandu selectively. We should drop the bum early in the morning when the Poorbi winds are flowing. What do you think?

Yes I do care for the innocent AllahRakhis and RamPyaris and their progeny. Real devil incarnates are Anglicized gandus in I'bad and Pindi.

Since you are such a good Kandle Kisser, India should not just drop the bum but good for nothing kandle kisser bums also from 40K ft height. Picture yourself coming down from that height with bum in hand, whisky peg on your head and a lighted candle in your butt-hole. Which candle do you prefer green or white? Long or thick bhindi? We will make sure that to receive you on the ground in I'bad there will be folks like Suzanne Roy and Sardesai. Don't worry, the candle flame in your butt Hum Boozane Nahi Denge - just keep your butt on the west. Would you pl do that?

Arre Sala Hum bhi Shero shayari Main Kum Nahi! Hum ne bhi kuch to sikh liya reciting Saare Jahan Se Achha. That also was penned by Arabized Bamanya.

Tahmed sahib,

Most Indian Hindoos who are literate enuff to be on chowk wud be obessessed with Pak. The majority who are illiterate wud be more bothered with their next meal.

Regards

both these nut jobs mentioned in #525 were from South India. So much for "except for the very few in the North Indian states bordering Pakistan."

SPY: "Most of the Indians hardly know or care about Pakistan, except for the very few in the North Indian states bordering Pakistan."

The most pathetic Pakistanphobic nutjob from India, Jay Thakeray who infested chowk for several years until he was taken away in a straitjacket, was from South India. The second most pathetic, "paki paki" Arjun had to change his nick over a hundred times on chowk (each time he got bumped off).

Enough said.

Re: # 170 bilal843: Your views are good and I like them.

- "And Indians should also please come out of Pakistanphobia".

Believe me, Most of the Indians hardly know or care about Pakistan, except for the very few in the North Indian states bordering Pakistan. Even the small fraction that have developed this phobia, after observing/realizing Pakistan's policy in action of bleeding India with 1000 cuts. Pak involvement in Punjab(early 1980s), Kashmir (from 89 onwards) and the mini-wars / attacks of Siachin(1984), Kargil(1999), Parliament attack(2001), Bombay (Taj) attacks (2008) etc. are part of the same policy, that gives us the phobia. Putting a stop to all such zero sum game policies of Pakistan can definitely help Indians get over this phobia.

- "and stop having dreams of a regional military super-power the poverty of India needs to be taken care of first.....". Again very good thoughts about addressing the issue of poverty before military power. But unfortunatley the past has tought lessons otherwise. Last 1000 years of history points it clearly that Indians (including present day Paksitan area) were generally well off but weak militarily, with the result the umpteen looters / invaders easily overpowered the locals. Prosperity and advancement has no meaning if it cannot be defended against the invading barbarians. Earlier the central Asians, Turks, Mongols, Persians, Afghans etc. used to dream of invading India and loot / share its wealth. In today's world while the danger of attack from one of these countries on India has reduced to zero, but Pakistan army and average Pakistanis have drawn full insipration from the past. It is evident as the heroes of Pakistan are not the locals but all the invaders who have hurt / damaged India in the past. History will keep on repeating if India does not learn its lessons and gaurd itself against such a neighbour by become economically and militarily strong. The Indian military power is not to attack Pakistan (i.e. offensive), but to defend itself from any further attacks. Coming back to the Poverty part, the % of GDP devoted to poverty handling schemes by the Indian government is much larger compared to the other countries in neighbourhood. I agree with your views and this % can be increased much more if the two countries can overcome the past and devote their defence budget for the poverty eradication schemes.

hamidm #496 Yes indeed, there is so much expertise on Pakistan newspapers in India. I understand Dr. Jay Thakeray was Professor Emeritus of Dawn Newspaper and Prof. Arjun was PhD in Dawn Opinions section. These are highly specialized disciplines.

Inspired by these learned Indian commentators on current affairs, I tried to achieve their level of scholarship by googling "Indian newspapers" once, and the pop-ups were so bad and the layout so confused I had to give up this counter-spy effort of looking up Indian papers.

hamidm #496 Yes indeed, there is so much expertise on Pakistan newspapers in India. I understand Dr. Jay Thakeray was Professor Emeritus of Dawn Newspaper and Prof. Arjun was PhD in Dawn Opinions section. These are highly specialized disciplines.

Inspired by these learned Indian commentators on current affairs, I tried to achieve their level of scholarship by googling "Indian newspapers" once, and the pop-ups were so bad and the layout so confused I had to give up this counter-spy effort of looking up Indian papers.

Mr. Madani: You are right - we need less talk of bombs and more talk of stocks. I think that will happen once we have dealt with these animals that Mr. Musharraf had allowed into the country from Afghanistan instead of cooperating with the US and turning them back. But Mr. Musharraf liked dogs, so he allowed these taliban dogs into the country.

http://ibnlive.in.com/news/azam-circulating-nude-posters-of-mine-jaya/92312-37.h tml...

these beduinoid bast***s have become so emboldened....
we need another 1993...

Re: # 515
abey gadha,what ever Indian armed forces may be, whether their performance meets the demand of the nation, that should be considered...so, far, they have not done that bad....India has to find some reason for attacking Pakistan...I am seeing no reason, other than dismantling terrorist training centres in Pakistani ocuupied Kashmir....But, that is not a long term solution?...Can India make Pakis diverted from Islam and think civilised way? No, currently India do not have that ability, other than using mass media like cinema, TV serials etc...and India is exactly doing that....

Re: # 515

I suggest you watch the Hoodbhoy video I have posted to get a sense of how much mutual suspicion and hatred exists between India and Pakistan. Under these conditions, it would be a folly to discount the Indian threat. Vigilance and preparation is very important to prevent another war.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 512

Currently, KSE-100 companies are trading at a PE ratio of less than 5 versus Mumbai Sensex at about 9. So a lot of the worse case pessimism is already reflected in the share prices of some of the high-quality blue-chips trading at Karachi stock exchange. Could it worse? It's possible but not likely.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 513
aleph...
Japan is adopting the technology and science from west in rather steady way and not in bits and pieces format...the relevant technology has be introduced in graduation level......

It is not matter of jet engine, alone...
Defence research and manufacturing should have been left to the hand of private companies...

Prof R.Haq...and all others your comments may be right. But time has come to change policy which has no yielded given results. Recently Air Marshall A.Khan was in Karachi and I read the news. He had good thinking. He questioned need to start war ? He said up to now India has not attacked Pakistan any time.1965, 1971 and Kargill all were started from ourside and Indian state reacted. The starting urge and beginning was done from ourside. He said if we do not start military action there will not be indian confrontation. I think we need to consider as airmarshall knows few more things, he is not pacifict like mr gandhi,he is very lean ad mean man. (He told Zia to hang Quaid E Awam by lamppost for general public viewing. Quied Awam here is ZAB.) India is weak and its military commander are not aggressive or brave like tiger or lion they are like elephant. If left to themselves they will go on grazing and better left alone. We have tried earnestly and failed three times when India was weak and lead by 4ft man, woman once and then senile 80 years man who can not walk but sit in chair. Now if we try again it will be failure and mad man only can expect different result.We do not want three front war with Afghnans and india and with pakistani talib. Let us hope they just concentrate on talib. The time will come when India is disintegrating to attack at proper time tosnatch, even better is to wait for ripe fruit falls in our lap then just go and pick it up and put in bag. Patience is virtue. Presently the strategic blunder of starting three wars and hidden enemy usa who wants to snatch crown jewels like aopportunistic chief, this is wrong policy and wrong policy also takes time to get posionous fruits. Presently will be wise to declare peace on India and go after Ts. Now Ts are not stupid they are making plans and according to plan pak army is resonding as programed robot. Kindly read our Majors blog it gives far better picture.
Good day.

RiazHaq #511

{{Deprecating the customers is not very smart business.}}

Not divining people's motives and personal interests - whether in weapons procurement or on Chowk - is even stupider. Not everyone is incorruptible, and not every newspaper or reporter is above board.

{{After all, they have to use the crappy stuff and suffer the consequences on the battlefield where there are lives at stake. }}

Don't worry, the services won't have to accept a weapon system unless their GSQRs are met. Weapons from foreign sources can be as unreliable as indigenous ones - politics has always played a role. The advantages of owning and understanding a design in its entirety are not to be underestimated.

nkg #509

{{Indian material science is way behind Russia/USA/Japan/Israel...Even if we get the the design, we don't have the ability to manufacture according to the specification...this is truth....}}

{{even the engine technology from TM....}}

Well, that's true. Only four countries are fully state of the art (or close) when it comes to jet engines. But they have all built that capacity up through six decades of constant development. Without investing a significant fraction of that effort, India will never get there. There's no choice but to do it.

Re: # 503 Prof.R Haq I agree with your comments about KSE. This time to invest in quality and very very iundervalued stocks. There will be enormous gains in short terms ( next five years), My mistake was to be too greedy and then loosing heart and timid to liquidate. Next time when any stock over 200% gains will liquidate and any stock loosing 50% will be sold to control losses. What I learnt from this devastation of KSE one should only care about losses gains will take care of themselves. Unfortunatelyn I am not sure providence will give me chance to test learnt lessons due to age factor.

Re: # 506

Deprecating the customers is not very smart business. After all, they have to use the crappy stuff and suffer the consequences on the battlefield where there are lives at stake.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

nkg #505

{{defence reasearch was minimal at the hand of Indians...when Brits left, Nehru and his gang preferred to cut ties with UK.}}

Actually that is not completely true - they had some ties with both the UK and France in the 1950s. Remember India started from a very low base and funds were very short in the early years. As far as aircraft are concerned there was a big gap in the 70s when projects were abandoned and trained manpower basically rotted. Things had to be restarted from a low base in the 80s. I hope that by now enough people realize the importance of sustaining and building on a reserve of trained and capable people and giving them interesting things to work on. The money invested here will pay for itself many times over in terms of having capable people stay in India, foreign exchange saved, building up a network of local suppliers, and being immune to pressure from foreign nations.

Re: # 506
Aleph....
Indian material science is way behind Russia/USA/Japan/Israel...Even if we get the the design, we don't have the ability to manufacture according to the specification...this is truth....
Entire Dhruv was designed, with help of france...even the engine technology from TM....

Our manufacturing ability is realy very poor, so is design....it may be better some 10 years...but as of now, we depend on EU, Russia and Israel....

Re: # 500

I have met Stanford EE Professor Paulraj and seen one of his presentations on MIMO wireless at Intel Dev Forum. He is clearly a very smart man who left DRDO for greener pastures in 1992.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Just thought I would mention something here.

Remember anything that has "South Asia" in its name is basically a Paki organization. No self respecting Indian will ever associate or do business with such an organization. These organizations are created by Pakis who do not have courage to call it a Paki organization. It is designed to attract gullible Indians.. but, it ain't working.

Same holds for restaurants, the shameless cowards call their restaurants "Indian" but the point is this works ONLY once. That is why most close in about 3 months. Same with grocery stores.

So, I am really not surprised that this windbag Riaz calls his blog "South Asia" review. That is cowardice plain and simple. That is why he is here peddling his snakeoil on chowk 24x7.

Anyway, gotta run. You all have a nice time blowing a gasket. Good luck with the Taliban.

RiazHaq #495:

{{These articles quote India's top brass's public statements. Please research these facts and quotes before you dismiss Mail Today.}}

I have followed Indian defense reporting attentively for many years. Who are you trying to fool?

Senior serving (and, even more so, retired) officers are not *all* completely objective about the merits of indigenous programs - particularly when there was nothing of adequate quality available in the past; and when there is no money to made from indigenous procurement, and lots from Raytheon, Boeing, Lockheed Martin and Dassault. Not every officer is completely incorruptible, and many reporters may be on the take from foreign vendors.

Historically the Indian Navy was the service with the best attitude to building weaponry in India - they took major ownership of shipbuilding and other programs and had large-scale inputs in the design of the vessels they would eventually operate. With any luck, the IAF will come of age as well when they fully understand the value of owning every part of the weapon you use, having the original design data available at all times, and not being at the mercy of foreign nations.

Re: # 501
Aleph...

The transition from British to Indians, were not smooth...specialy the high positions in defence was held by british officers...defence reasearch was minimal at the hand of Indians...when Brits left, Nehru and his gang preferred to cut ties with UK...Our ability lagged so much, so that, we need foreign assistance for long time (may be for 10/15 years) consistantly to boost our ability for research and development and production...that has not happenned...I am not blaming DRDO employees...DRDO used to attract best of the scientists...but they engage in too many areas and they failed to produce result in key areas of defence....the level of technical collaboration with Russia was not enough...now, Israel is helping us....we are way behind Israel, France and Russia....France helped in both LCA and Dhruv project...Israel is chipping in...at least now, DRDO is not doing good...may be future will be something decent....

Madani dude, please remember to take your medication. Don't worry about Inidan elections. No party has been in a majority for around 20 years now. The Indian army has not stepped in. It ain't the Paki army.

All I am telling you to do is get packed. Liquidate all your property and move the cash to another country. Too bad you won't get a visa to any decent country. Your best bet is to walk east and ask for mercy. Don't worry, India will give you sanctuary. Good luck.

Re: # 486

Madani Sahib,

Thanks for asking but I am not a financial adviser. My blog (South Asia Investor Review) deals with macro issues affecting economy and investments in Pakistan, not specific investments.

Looking at the high level, investing in Pakistan at this time is not for the faint of heart. But, judging from the recent recovery of the market after a deep nose dive earlier, I am sure smart money is moving in to KSE-100 stocks now.

Just remember what happened from 2001 to 2007. Any one who invested in 2001 amidst doom and gloom, and remained invested till 2007, made 1000% gain in KSE-100. Even after the 50% fall since its peak, such investors have reaped 500% return since 2001.

Once again, we see the same kind of deep pessimism that prevailed in Pakistan in 2001. Although it is hard to predict, I believe KSE-100 is capable of repeating 2001-2007 performance again over the next six years, if we have at least half decent government policies. There is a lot of risk, but the rewards can be outstanding.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 498
ahmed...
ch ch....what a dream!!!!!!
why don't you sub-human species accept the human nature and behavior....? Indians will never act like bedunistic creatures,whatever Suzanne Roy etc...may say....and you Pakis will never be able to come out of beduinism...whatever way US may try to help...this is bilogical matter...

nkg #492:

DRDO has had many problems, but some projects have done very well for the money spent. If ISRO can excel on a shoestring budget, there's no inherent reason DRDO can't.

They do face constant opposition from a section of serving and retired officers who have their own (corrupt, or at any rate pecuniary) reasons for wanting to buy foreign - something that ISRO doesn't have to deal with. This happens to affect the newspaper reporting on programs like Arjun or even the LCA. Notice that you don't have the degree of negativity in reporting on ballistic missile programs that you do for tanks or aircraft - simply because the foreign alternatives are non-existent for plainly strategic weaponry. As I wrote in another post, Frontline is still the most reliable source for defense technology reporting.

Investment here is well worth it if it keeps talented people in India. The downturn in the IT industry should help DRDO to attract and retain talent; improving pay-scales should also help.

RiaqHaq,
"I personally know a lot of very smart Indian scientists who are doing ground-breaking research in many parts of the world, including Silicon Valley. But I don't think DRDO can attract or retain such scientists."

Know this guy?
http://www.stanford.edu/~apaulraj/

He spent a lifetime in Indian defence research.

Anyway enough entertainment for tonight. Halftime is over. The Taliban have started their "Purification" thrust again. The Paki army have started their "strategic" retreat again.

I want to see the much vaunted Paki Army kill 2,000,000 of them tonight from around 55 KM from Islam-ain't-bad.

Tomorrow, another 3,352,879 taliban killed at a town 45 KM from Islam-ain't-all-that-bad.

You know what? Did the Pakis get their strategic depth concept wrong? Maybe they should have asked Inida to accommodate them in the THAR in case of an attack from their west.

WOW!!! Anyway, I am off.

Mr. T ...there is too much talk about war, nuclear assets etc that is not good. Instead of that we need totalk about stocks, bonds, real estates, interest rates, trade and rising potential companies on KSE. I feel there is too much cloud of doom and depression.
India election farce is over then real nightmare will start when no party has majority and leading to chaos and violence and riots and finally fr first time army stepping in to take over to "save" country El pakisan Fauj take over and followed by destruction. I feel sad india is going to be finished by its own military and follow foot steps of pakistan and all that talk of india shining and sunset of indian democracy and Indian people accepting, worlds largest farcical democracy going to doom by its own dilectics. Shining India.Let us pray for indian people. Most celebrated and courageous person of India mrs Arundhati roy said here India is failed state and said indian democracy is total failure.
Good day.

Re: # 485
beduin32...
oh no...they will be enlightened by the gangster's manual ( Korun) and package them in gunny sack/hizab....
Islamic airways.....

Re: # 481

alephnull mian,

..... i know this might come as a surprise to you, but unlike the horrible hindoos who are obsessed with pakistan, pakis don't give a flip about india other than the bollywood bimbos, kashmir and betel nuts ......... unlike arjun mian who is a scholar of paki newspapers, most pakis have never read an indian newspaper ........ heck most pakis have never even met a hindoo and think you people run around naked and eat little children ....... so please don't bother us with the indian 'press' ..... i am sure it exists but we just don't care ..........

Re: # 481: "Random quotes from shoddily researched articles in third-rate Indian newspapers, written by dork reporters who may know little or nothing about the technology"

These articles quote India's top brass's public statements. Please research these facts and quotes before you dismiss Mail Today.

Especially investigate the following statement:

"The Mail Today quoted S. Prahlada, chief of the Control Research and Development, DRDO, as saying that development and production of most of the futuristic weapon systems would henceforth be undertaken with foreign collaboration."

I personally know a lot of very smart Indian scientists who are doing ground-breaking research in many parts of the world, including Silicon Valley. But I don't think DRDO can attract or retain such scientists.

Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 479
aleph...
these Pakis are fighting with India for last 60 years ( directly, jihadi way etc. etc...)...somehow, that has not created any positive outcome for them...now, these people are fighting their own jihadis, who were suppose to scare Indian defence forces...let us see, what

TAhmed, dude, I know YOU watch bollywood movies. Pirated ones too. Shame on your worthless sanctimonious ass. Guess what dude, your asylum process just got harsher. You will also have to visit a hanuman temple and offer a puja. Serve you right!!

Also, I hear you now work for a H1B guy as his cook & chaprasi. I also hear you were rejected for your cab driving license... AGAIN!! Reason cited was senility? Tell me it ain't true dude! You of all people do not deserve it.

If you need help from the brotherhood of Indians to save your ass, please appeal to their mercy dude. They will help you. They are very kind and decent people.

Re: # 481
Aleph...
DRDO is utter falure...There is no difference between other Govt. offices with DRDO...The basic problem with India is Govt. organisations are as inefficient as any other 3rd world county...The amount of investment GoI makes on DRDO, the ROI is very poor...though these Paki illusions are not true (Pakistani reasearch, if anything is there, is comparable with Indian one)...India need urgent privatization of research and development in advanced areas....There is a saying in Indian corporate cirle...India is growing despite Govt. and China is growing due to Govt....Chinese public sectors are as efficient like our private sector...1998 Nuke test and subsequent sacnction has put brake on lot of stuff...NDA Govt. acted like stupid....Now, L & T, Tata and M & M are partnering with EADS, Boeing etc... Situation may improve...But the Govt. have to reform. It looks that Cong. Govt. may come back again to power...then, I can say, the situation may not be that good....

#490 Yes indeed Mr. Madani. Mr. Hussain will Take Mr. Taliban by his beard and hang him upside down from the tree and then teach him meaning of Islam with littar (which is large shoe kind of thing used in panjab for miscreant gentleman, sir).

Mr. Hussain Zindabad!!

Re: # 488 I am surprisingly delighted finally you have understood the social work of Mr.Hussain. Now even sun has sun spots and some times he had made mistakes.
Good day

Re: # 485 Mr. T please do not even mention arjun. Presently it appears he is hibernating in India in little dingi no nothing village without regular water supply or sufficient food. Please do not disturb him we have sufficient bad news do we need more ?
Have good day

Hello Mr Madani. Please take over India baby-sitting for me. Please remember to change Mr. AlephNull's diaper when you see too much hot air. Thank very much to you, gentleman Madani.

And now, all together: Bhai Altaf will Kick Taliban Ass!! MQM Zindabad!

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Re: # 477
Prof.R.Haq.... I read your blog about investments.
I feel the Morgan Sanley has done injustice on _Pakistan stock market by removing pakistan from developing stock market Index. It has implications for downward pressure on KSE. Are thre laws on which they can be sued for exclusive exclusion ?. Some Pakistani lawyers/ volunteer can look at this factor.
Presently all have lost big amounts on KSE ( in fact all exchanges , usa war on terror has become war on equity markets resulting in destryuction of wealth)

What is your feeling is pipe line from Iran is real thing iran wants to do or just talk ?

I feel they should keepin hold now gas pipeline and Tap and electric grid as it will be just destruction of wealth. Terrorist along electric lines and pipelines will be subjected to blackmail.

You have any suggestion for any particular company shares on KSE which has good potential to make money for short term ( five) years.

It appears KSE is more affected by politics and best way to jump start isto investment in Kse from America.

It appears investment in real terms ie capital goods and services from foreign investors is unlikely.

USA is blackmailing country to allow indian to have access from Pakistan. Is there any good benefit to country by allowing India to have access to a.stan.
Thanks, have good day Prof R.Haq.

And all the airline stewardesses start start Bollywood dancing with joy when they see the Indian HIB come to the airport. And when the Indian HIB speakees hees Arjun Armikan slang, the airport comes to a halt as even the pilots listen in awe.

#482 CoolAl: We Pakis have to hide behind the Indian HIB programmers at airports in order to catch a flight. Everyone knows Pakis arent allowed anywhere near airports because they are terrorists.

Oh NO. India's secret weapon, the HotAir AlephNull anti-anti-missile is here!!

Riaz, please leave our incompetent DRDO alone. Their incompetence should make you giddy with happiness.

I am curious, I have so many questions..perhaps you could answer them.

How are you dealing with Air travel in the US? Do they routinely select you for body cavity searches based on your name? Have pilots ever refused to take you on their planes? How are you dealing/coping with all the unfair stereotyping of the faithful? Are you already "Purified" or are a target of "Purification"? Are you aware of the Patriot act and how it has allowed the FBI to legally keep tabs on people like you and Tahmed? Why didn't you cut and run to Canada like Romair did circa 2002? Have Canada closed that loophole?

Whew!!! Finally, "Ab tera kya hoga Riaz?" Where will you run to?

Regards.

RiazHaq (PAW) #470, #475, #477

If those reports are accurate in their particulars it's jolly for you; India is wasting its money to no avail, and will fall ever further behind Pakistan.

Let me give you a friendly tip. The most reliable, accurate and detailed (though still not perfect) reporting on India's nuclear, space and defense technology programs is found in The Hindu [a left-wing newspaper that is often hostile to the government of the day], and particularly in its fortnightly newsmagazine Frontline. Random quotes from shoddily researched articles in third-rate Indian newspapers, written by dork reporters who may know little or nothing about the technology, could give a quite misleading picture. Like Dutch courage, they may improve Pakistani morale in the short term, but that's all they'll do.

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tahmed32 #472

{{Could Sri Ram please provide Pakistan these advanced anti-anti-missiles ... These would ensure that the taliban are toast.}}

Chacha, don't get carried away. Anti-missiles (or indeed, artillery and heavy caliber weapons of any sort) won't help you against an internal insurgency, particular if it has the support of significant segments of the Pakistani population. For that your b'loved army needs to do fall back on tried-and-trusted footslogging counter-insurgency tactics - such as cordon-and-search operations in areas of suspected insurgent activity.

India can help train you in such tactics. Remember, you have to win the hearts and minds of the populace. Of course, if the rank-and-file of your army are infected with the same jihadism as the Punjabi Taliban, you have a bigger problem on your hands - they may refuse to fire on an 'enemy' that belongs to the same demographic as they do, and with whom they sympathize.

Re: # 466
khyber...
That is the reason, you katuas should never be let off....
If you can speak about Indira Gandhi "begging" during 1971, then you can resort any form of islamic sh**...

More on DRDO from Indian newspaper Mail Today:

http://epaper.mailtoday.in/epaperhome.aspx?issue=1152009

A brain wave to save DRDO

FOR QUITE some time now, we Indians have waxed about our intellectual capital, of the brain drain being reversed and painting pictures of our countrymen from California to Canberra returning in droves to ride on Shining India. Ask the fellows at the Defence Research and Development Organisation and they will think you are an ignoramus.

DRDO runs 52 research laboratories in the country and in the last five years, over 1,200 scientists have left for greener pastures.

Things were bad earlier too, and in the five preceding years, 400 scientists had quit.

Bad pay, appalling working conditions and a bureaucratic mindset that is hardly in sync with scientific temperament of the establishment. The governments concerns were allayed by the babus who convinced their masters that once the 6th Pay Commission recommendations were implemented, the scientists would be happy with the bounty, would fall in line and all would be fine. Really? The DRDO is taking no chances though. This month, it is organising a Round Table where HR honchos from the US, UK, Israel as well as top Indian corporates like Wipro, Infosys and Tata will teach them the art of retaining talent.

For the sake of our defence forces, let us hope the lessons would be truly learned.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

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More on DRDO's incompetence:

BOFORS guns in a row, belching fire at Tiger Hill remain one of the iconic pictures of the 1999 Kargil War. Yet it was not known at the time that India had to fly in ammunition from South Africa.

“ Had the conflict not been confined to the 150- km front of the Kargil sector,� says Brig ( Retd) Gurmeet Kanwal, director of the New Delhi- based Centre for Land Warfare Studies, “ T- 72 and 130 mm medium gun ammunition would have also run short. That would have been embarrassing for the government as well as the Army.� Everyone knows that the superb Bofors guns became a victim of the controversy over commissions paid for their acquisition.

But it is the country that has paid the real price. The 400 guns acquired were to have been followed by another 1,000 to be made indigenously.

That did not happen and the original guns diminished through wear, tear and cannibalisation for parts.

They nonetheless remain the mainstay of the Armys artillery units.

It has taken the government nearly two decades since the Bofors scandal peaked to issue request for proposals for 155 mm guns and howitzers for the mountains and plains, and self- propelled guns for the desert.

If the Army is lucky, four guns shortlisted will go for trials and a final selection made that could join the Army by 2012 or so.

Till then, the Army will have to depend on its long- obsolete indigenously designed and manufactured 105 mm Indian Field Gun ( IFG) and the Light Field Gun ( LFG), the 75/ 24 Indian Mountain Gun, the 100 mm Russian field gun and the 122 mm Russian howitzer.

There is some relief that we have managed to upgrade some 180 pieces of the fabled 130 mm M46 Russian medium guns with the help of the Israelis.

Some more relief comes from the acquisition of two regiments of the 12- tube, 300 mm Smerch multi- barrel rocket launcher ( MBRL) system with 90 km range. Had they been available then, they would have provided India the ability to hit at Pakistani artillery positions in Kargil.

All this pain and expense had to be borne because of the DRDO- designed Pinaka system, which is in any case inferior to the Russian product.

The one area in which India has been traditionally weak is that of selfpropelled artillery.

These are the heavy guns mounted on a tracked chassis which are integral to any offensive armoured force.

The US supplied Pakistan the first 155 mm artillery in the 1960s, and even today it has an edge over India in having something like 250 SP guns, which include some super- heavy 203 mm.

India, on the other hand has just 100 130mm Catapult guns which is a juryrigged system of a Russian 130mm gun mounted on a Vijayanta chassis.

Artillery officers complain the gun is too heavy for its chassis, which tends to break down regularly.

The plan to acquire a 155 mm SP gun using a South African turret was scuttled some years ago because its supplier, Denel, was involved in a bribery scandal relating to another ARMY UNARMED? acquisition.

The lack of a relatively light mountain gun or a self- propelled gun affect any offensive war plan the Army may like to formulate.

Movement in the mountains is extremely difficult and getting guns to negotiate the hair- pin bends of the roads is a major task.

So, some of the guns have to be light enough to be lifted by helicopters. As for SP guns, without them, any armoured thrust lacks the firepower it needs to punch through enemy defences.

There is one other area where the Indian Army has been weaker than Pakistan. This is the area of artillery and mortar tracking using battlefield tracking radars.

Islamabad has fielded a French Rasit system since the early 1980s along with the US- supplied AN/ TPQ36, which were used in the Kargil war for tracking Indian mortar and artillery fire.

By contrast, India sought to develop one of its own and actually rejected a US offer for an AN/ TPQ37, a more advanced version of the radar Islamabad had.

This was done at the request of the DRDO, which said it was developing the system. By the time New Delhi realised its mistake, it had come under US sanctions in the wake of the nuclear tests of 1998.

Since then, the US has sold us six of the radars which form the core of the counter- battery systems. According to Kanwal, at least 30 to 40 such radars are required for effective counter- bombardment, especially in the plains.

Only a few have been procured so far.

manoj.joshi@mailtoday.in
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

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#467 Could Sri Ram please provide Pakistan these advanced anti-anti-missiles like the AlephNull Hotair Missile, or the Ajeya One-Third Brain Missile. These would ensure that the taliban are toast. First the AlephNull will melt their beards with his blasts of hotair. Then the Ajeya will make finish of the remainder by saying "amma mirchi lagi India ki hi-tech space weapon say", causing the taliban to die laughing.

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Here's a piece about the lack of DRDO credibility even among Indian military brass:

NEW DELHI, Jan 9: India’s missile scientists have said that the country’s indigenous missile programme is flagging and needs foreign assistance to revive it.

The embarrassing admission came amid claims by Indian analysts that Pakistan’s missile programme had proved to be more robust and surefooted than India’s. The Mail Today newspaper on Wednesday quoted the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) as announcing that it would scrap its 25-year Integrated Guided Missile Development Programme (IGMDP) by the end of this year.

“Plagued by cost overruns and repeated failures, the announcement is a virtual admission of failure,� the newspaper said. “In fact, some former chiefs of the different services said as much on hearing the news.�

Speaking of the Trishul surface-to-air missile that has now been termed a technology demonstrator, former naval chief Sushil Kumar said: “It was a national embarrassment. DRDO made fake claims for 25 years. In the 1999 Kargil conflict, the navy was vulnerable to attacks from Pakistan’s Harpoon.

“Finally the project was scrapped when the navy went in for the Israeli Barak missiles. The Prithvi’s naval variant, Dhanush, is also flawed and ill-conceived, which is being inflicted on the navy.�On the Akash missile, which was the subject of the DRDO media conference here on Tuesday, former air chief S. P. Tyagi said: “Akash was to be ready at a certain time, but it wasn’t. I had to change everything to make up for the delay.� Both missiles were part of a programme to develop indigenous weapons, which began in July 1983, with plans for Agni, Prithvi, Trishul, Akash and Nag missiles.

The IGMDP, which was aimed at achieving self-sufficiency in missile development and production, comprises five core missile programmes -- the strategic Agni ballistic missile, the tactical Prithvi ballistic missile, the Akash and Trishul surface-to-air missiles and the Nag anti-tank guided missile.

The Mail Today quoted S. Prahlada, chief of the Control Research and Development, DRDO, as saying that development and production of most of the futuristic weapon systems would henceforth be undertaken with foreign collaboration.

With regard to the nuclear-capable Agni series, comprising I and II, the newspaper quoted army sources as saying while they had been tested five times each “a handful of tests are not enough to prove a missile’s worth�.

There were different problems with other systems too.

“Pakistan has always been one step ahead of India in its missile programme,� the newspaper said, adding that Islamabad has “a much more robust missile force than India, one capable of launching nuclear weapons to any part in this country.�

Unlike Indian missiles, which were declared “inducted� after a few tests, the Pakistani projectiles have always been thoroughly tested.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

tahmed32 #445

Chacha, if only your inane witticisms had the power to reduce the actual effectiveness of a future Indian anti-missile system. Alas!

Such a system severely damages Pakistan's ability to engage in brinkmanship with India under the shield of putative nuclear weapons capability. It upsets a Pakistani leader's calculations in any crisis if the maximum damage he can do India is cut down by a substantial if unpredictable factor. The worst thing is that he won't know the actual effectiveness of the system - that knowledge will be available only to India's government. He has do deal with the agonizing prospect that he may commit his country to national harakiri and do the Indians minimal harm.

So I can well-understand why the prospect of India fielding such a system has you distraught, coming on top of all of Pakistan's other woes. I weep for you, as the Walrus once said; I deeply sympathize.

{{hotair blasts}}

Actual hot-gas thrusters are used to manoeuvre the terminal (homing) upper stage of the exoatmospheric interceptor at up to 5G. So hot air blasts do figure in this scheme, though probably not in the way you thought.

tahmed #461

Chacha, you seem really upset. Was it something I wrote? Don't let these Sri Ram Indian monkeymen get you down!

#467 Posted by CoolAL
stone RAM cant help anyone.Find something else dude.

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#464 Thanks for offering moral and diplomatic support, Prime Minister of India Sri Ram CoolAl.

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#460ajeya...I dont need to swing that side...i was just reading this following report from BBC.COM...LOL


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/6161691.stm

Condoms 'too big' for Indian men
By Damian Grammaticus
BBC News, Delhi


A survey of more than 1,000 men in India has concluded that condoms made according to international sizes are too large for a majority of Indian men.

The study found that more than half of the men measured had penises that were shorter than international standards for condoms.
NO OFFENSE.

#461 tahmed32

[First the Indian AlephNull Hotair Super-anti-anti-missile!!
Now the Indian Ajeya One-Third Brain Ultra-anti-missile!! Now Pakistan is really in trouble!! ]

Mirchi, eh? :)

First the Indian AlephNull Hotair Super-anti-anti-missile!!
Now the Indian Ajeya One-Third Brain Ultra-anti-missile!! Now Pakistan is really in trouble!!

#457 KHYBER

[...No dude i meant blonds love paki macho men cause blonds know that we paki dont need small soze condoms like indian dude does]

So KHYBER knows what size condom Indian men wear. What does that tell you guys? Seems Khyber is playing on the other team - eh?

:)

Some more mirchi for tahmed and Pakis...

India set to build Medium Combat Aircraft

Ajai Shukla / Bangalore May 02, 2009, 0:11 IST

With India’s home-built Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) — the Tejas — flying successfully through its testing process, the Indian Air Force (IAF) has now signed up for an indigenous Medium Combat Aircraft (MCA). Within days, the IAF and a team of aircraft designers will formally set up a joint committee to frame the specifications for India’s own MCA, which will be built largely in Bangalore.



The MCA’s design team will centre on the agencies that have built the LCA: the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA); the National Aeronautics Laboratory (NAL); Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL); and a host of Defence R&D Organisation (DRDO) laboratories that will develop futuristic sensors and systems for the MCA.

The director of ADA, Dr PS Subramaniam, confirmed to Business Standard, “The joint committee is likely to be formed within two or three weeks. This committee will finalise what will go into the MCA, as well as the budget and development schedule.�

According to Dr Subramaniam, the programme will aim to develop the MCA and build five to six prototypes at a cost of Rs 5,000 crore. That is approximately the same amount that has gone into the LCA programme.

With this, Indian aeronautical designers will be working in all the fighter categories. In the light fighter category (10-11 tonnes), the Tejas LCA is expected to get operational clearance in 2011; the MCA will be India’s first foray into the medium fighter category (14-15 tonnes); and in the heavy fighter category (20 tonnes plus), currently ruled by the Russian Sukhoi-30MKI, Indian designers plan to partner their Russian counterparts in developing the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA).

Interestingly, the decision to develop an indigenous MCA comes alongside the overseas procurement of 126 Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) for an estimated Rs 50,000 crore. Senior IAF planners point out that the MMRCA procurement is unavoidable for replacing the MiG-29s and Mirage-2000s that will become obsolete while the MCA is still being developed.

By 2020, when the IAF’s current fleet would have been largely phased out, MoD planners forecast a requirement for at least 250 medium fighters. This has raised hopes amongst the MMRCA contenders (the US F/A-18 and F-16, Russia’s Mig-35; the Eurofighter Typhoon; and the Swedish Gripen) that the winner could end up supplying twice as many fighters as the current tender. But a successful Indian MCA programme would cap the MMRCA procurement at 126 fighters. After that, the MCA production will kick in.

The MCA designers plan to pursue technologies superior to anything currently on offer.The ADA director points out, “None of the MMRCA contenders will be state-of-the-art in 2015-2017. But the MCA will;it will incorporate the technologies of the future, which currently feature only on the US Air Force’s F-22 Raptor.�

India’s aeronautical designers see the MCA programme as crucial for taking forward the expertise that has been painstakingly accumulated in the Tejas LCA programme. The IAF is in agreement; and the Rama Rao Committee, set up for restructuring the DRDO, has recommended that programmes must be created to provide continuity for designers.

Says a senior MoD official: “With great difficulty we have built up a team that can design a complete combat aircraft. After a couple of years, when the LCA goes into production, there will be no design work left. Without another aircraft programme to work on, we will lose this team, having attained this level.�

#445 tahmed32

Tahmed was depending on the "nuclear deterrant" power of the Islamic "bum" all these years. Now he has a problem. Before the Indian Space Mission to the moon, tahmed had been ready with all kinds of zingers to throw at Indians at Chowk. But even after fasting day and night in his neighborhood mosque and praying to the moon-god, the mission to the moon went without a hitch. Now the Hindoos are creating a missile defense shield? Life isn't fair, dammit!

I think more praying to alla is needed.

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Yep. I agree again. You know what they say about blondes don't you?

Anyhoo, now that the Khyber pass area has been "purified", how is your beard coming along? Any women in your family been publically spanked recently? If so, please accept my sympathies....Otherwise, I am so relieved. Please take care.

I pray to my god to ask Allah to protect you all. They belong to the same country club up there...

khyber:

"The study of world phenomenon on corruption has repeatedly branded India as one of the most corrupt countries in the world."

There is probably more corruption in China and some other east asian countries, but with a difference: in those countries, once you give money to the right party, you can be certain that your work will be done; in India, even corruption is inefficient, you can bribe people and still may not get your job done. Even mafia is more honest than the Indian politicians and administrators.

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I agree Zardari is indeed a "Statesman" of the highest caliber. I particularly liked how he was panting like a puppy and refused to let Sarah Palin's hand when he was introduced to her as a head of state. I bet that made all the macho Pakis chests swell with pride.

For that alone Zardari should be awarded "Nishan-e-Pureland"

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Re: # 449

Khyber - I agree that Zardari is a statesman. In fact, Pakistan needs more statesmen like him. Happy now.

Re: # 447....no idiot that means..a person who exhibits great wisdom and ability in directing the affairs of a government or in dealing with important public issues.

Just to let you all know. I am completely "neutral" in this "purification process" going on next door in the Pureland. I can appreciate the goals and aspirations of the people involved on both sides of this "purification process".

I just want see this process continue for a loooooong time. For this, I really think we Indians should offer "moral and diplomatic support" to both sides (one overt and the other covert) and possibly material support to keep the pot boiling. I think it will be worth every penny.

Re: # 444

Agree. Zardari is a statesman.

Mahatma Gandhi
Mahatma Gandhi, as you know, walked barefoot most of the time, which produced an impressive set of calluses on his feet.

He also ate very little, which made him rather frail and with his odd diet, he suffered from bad breath.

All of these attributes made him.....

A super callused fragile mystic hexed by halitosis.

RiazHaq #436 Those are the Indian super-anti-anti-missiles, that you mention. You are right that they work by stinking up the place so badly that humans and other animals are instantly turned into pillars of salt, and plants, even blades of grass, shrivel up and die. However, fortunately for us dumb pakis, those are at the testing stage only. One version of this Indian Super-anti-anti-missile, for example has the code name of AlephNull. It is being tested on chowk nowadays, and its hotair blasts are considered to achieve temperatures higher than the surface of the sun.

#443 dude40000...at least ZARDARI was not half naked and skinny lookin like Gandhi and answered many questions with confidence and had statesmanship personality.

Re: # 441

Fiverupees.blogspot.com actually has a better quality of the same Zardari video on Daily show.

The most disquieting aspect of the widespread corruption in India is the fact that it is not anymore confined to politicians or the government machinery alone. It is prevalent amongst almost every section of the society at every level in India. The study of world phenomenon on corruption has repeatedly branded India as one of the most corrupt countries in the world. Unfortunately, this view has not disturbed most of the Indians at all and they do not seem to care as to what others think of them; so long as the existing systems and practices would allow them to make money and get things done in one way or the other. It does not shock Indians anymore to know that not only the politicians, ministers and IAS & IPS officers are corrupt but even the judges, professors, doctors and NGO organisations are.

Guys - You have to watch this if you missed it on TV earlier. So, what was your favorite moment? Mine was when Zardari repeats at least 10 times - I need , I need , I need in various shows. Hilarious.

http://www.thedailyshow.com/video/index.jhtml?videoId=226596&t itle=apakalypse-now

RiazHaq #432

{{This stuff doesn't work, even in the faces of just a few missiles. If you go beyond a few, it's a miserable failure. The Israelis have fooled you}}

It's worked well in every test so far (three and counting). The current radars are Israeli but the interceptor missiles and the target-discrimination software are Indian and completely in India's power to develop further.

{{money that could have been better spent on feeding your hungry millions, clothing your multitudes of poor, building some toilets you desperately need, fixing your mostly pot-holed roads and big slummy cities.}}

India's missile defence programs are an excellent investment for the pittance spent on them. They are very bad news for Pakistan - they hold out the potential of emasculating your nuclear sabre-rattling.

In any case, it's the prerogative of India's democratically elected government to decide how to allocate money. Unlike Pakistan, India doesn't live on charity from the US and baksheesh from the Saudis. Don't worry your silly little head about how India's money is spent.

Of the 160 developing nations facing capital flight through illicit channels, India is placed fifth. in india ,Many political parties have made the return of black money into an election plank. If indian politicians paid their income taxes, India would have had enough money to fund all development projects and take care of millions of homeless in india.

tahmed32 #434

{{I understand there is an Indian anti-anti-missile also in production!!}}

Chacha, no need to go overboard and die of resentful envy. They're anti-missiles, not anti-anti-missiles.

It's a two-layered missile defence system, and still in development but with three successful intercepts in three tests to date. It's equivalent to aiming at a speeding bullet and hitting it with another bullet.

{{This highly advanced and precise Indian anti-anti-missile is powered by cow-patties (where India is the world leader). It works by displaying a picture of an Indian IT programmer with a red dot on his head shapeaking in thee amrikan engleesh slang like arjun, and this scares the daylights out of the incoming missile as soon as it comes within range.}}

Chacha, it's nothing so exotic. Just mundane stuff like signal processing - the kind of boring engineering that Indian techno-idiots excel in and Pakistanis can't be bothered with.

Re: # 436........lol...we need AL GORE for that.....lol

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These IT guys who love to comment here think BOLLYWOOD and their MISSILES are super powers ,they are fake as their hindi movies,as they are copy of hollywood movies and their fake weapons.....lol
http://pukhtunkhwatimes.blogspot.com/...

http://thepathans.blogspot.com/

RiazHaq: I understand there is an Indian anti-anti-missile also in production!! This puts it not one step, but two steps ahead of Pakistan which only has missiles (and even these, as everyone except us dumb pakis know, are fake anyway and armed with fake nukes)!!

This highly advanced and precise Indian anti-anti-missile is powered by cow-patties (where India is the world leader). It works by displaying a picture of an Indian IT programmer with a red dot on his head shapeaking in thee amrikan engleesh slang like arjun, and this scares the daylights out of the incoming missile as soon as it comes within range. The incoming gets so scared, it goes off the correct flight path, and instead runs away crying and calling out for its mama. It is all very scientific.

Dumb pakis, who possess only fake missiles armed with fake nukes, can only watch in amazement at these feats of hindu science.

Re: # 421

Don't worry about Indian and Pakistani gene pool. Tens of millions in the South Asian global diaspora will still be more than many other nations put together.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

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427 Ajeya, Thanks for the info.

Re: # 426ajeya..i dont ve madressa edu...i have better then that and urs.
http://pukhtunkhwatimes.blogspot.com/...

http://thepathans.blogspot.com/

nationalist Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP),, Shri Ram Sena ,Pramod Muthalik, ARE Indian Taliban..,They do not seem to you terrorists because neither they are Muslims nor Pakistanis...These people who belong to Sri Ram Sena are thugs and jobless low lifes just like Taliban in Afghanistan or Swat. My point is agin that u guys spend time talking about ur problems not Pakistani problems.
http://pukhtunkhwatimes.blogspot.com/...

http://thepathans.blogspot.com/

Re: # 414 freehussaini

"The brains leading the two countries promote themselves as the best"

Actually these folks are pretty smart for themselves and have become rulers of the nations and treat common folks no better than white folks used to do.

Education is the key. In western world, people know their rights and have somewhat more control over their rulers - not perfect but much better than our part of the world. As our folks get educated, hopefully, painting only great "our cultural superiority" or "our religious superiority" will not be enough. People will demand and hopefully get better treatment (work opportunities) one way or another.

Regards.

#422 VRV

[Do u really think that India has any shield against missile attacks either from Pakistan or China?]

Here's some depressing info (I'm sorry, Pakis, but those are the facts):

from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Air_Defence

India-Israel cooperation

India was interested in acquiring the Arrow-II Missile System, which had been jointly developed by US and Israel. However, the deal fell through due to US refusal to approve the sale of the missile and the Yellow Citron control system. India and Israel jointly developed the Long Range Tracking Radar (LRTR), which is target acquisition and fire control radar for PAD Missile System. LRTR radar has a capabiltiy to detect multiple targets.

Development

Phase 1

Development of ABM System began in 1999. Around 40 public and private Companies were involved in the development of ABM System. They include Bharat Electronics Ltd and Bharat Dynamics Ltd, Astra Microwave, ASL, Larsen & Toubro, Vem Technologies Private Limited and KelTech. Development of LRTR (Long Range Tracking Radar) and MFCR (Multi-function Fire Control Radar) was lead by Electronics and Radar Development Establishment (ERDE).[11][12]
For the AAD Missile System, Defence Research and Development Laboratory (DRDL) developed the mission control software. Research Centre, Imarat (RCI) developed navigation, electromechanical actuation systems and Active Radar Seeker. Advanced System Laboratory (ASL) provided the motors, jet vanes and structures for the two missiles. High Energy Materials Research Laboratory (HEMRL) supplied the propellants for the missile.[12]

Description

The two-tiered BMD System consists of the PAD, which will intercept missiles at exo-atmospheric altitudes of 50-80 km; and AAD Missile for interception at endoatmospheric altitudes of up to 30 km. The deployed system would consist of many launch vehicles, Radars, launch control centers (LCC) and Mission Control Center. All these are geographically distributed and connected by a secure communication network.[10]
Mission control center (MCC) is the software intensive system of the Ballistic Missile Defense. It receives information from various sources like Radars, Satellites etc which is then processed by ten computers running simultaneously. MCC is connected to all other elements of the System through a WAN. MCC performs target classification, target assignment and kill assessment. It acts as a decision support system for the commander. It can also decide the number of interceptors required for the target for an assured kill probability.[10]
MCC after performing all the functions, assigns the target to Launch Control Center (LCC) of a battery. Launch Control Center (LCC) starts computing the time to launch interceptor based upon information received from Radar. This is decided based on the data received from radar, on the speed, altitude and flight path of the target. LCC prepares the missile for launch in real time, carries out ground guidance computation.[10]
After the interceptor is launched, it is provided target information from the radar through a datalink. When the Interceptors closes on to the Target ballistic missile, it activates the Active Radar Seeker to search for target missile and guides itself to intercept the target. Multiple PAD and AAD interceptors can be launched against a target for high kill probability.[10]

Prithvi Air Defence (PAD) is an anti-ballistic missile developed to intercept incoming ballistic missiles outside atmosphere (Exoatmosphere). Based on the Prithvi missile, PAD is a two stage missile with a maximum interception altitude of 80 km. The first stage is a liquid fuelled motor that uses two propellants and oxidizers while second stage is solid fuelled.[14].[10] It has divert thrusters which can generate a lateral acceleration at more than 5 Gs at 50 km altitude. Guidance is provided by intertial navigation system, mid-course updates from long range tracking radar (LRTR) and active radar homing in the terminal phase.[10] PAD has capability to engage 300 to 2,000 km class of ballistic missiles at a speed of Mach 5.[10]
Long Range Tracking Radar is the target acquisition and fire control Radar for PAD Missile. It is an active phased array radar having capability to track 200 targets at a range of 600 km.[10] The Prithvi Air Defense missile has been named as Pradyumna.[15]
Further development led to the improvement of the interception range to 80km from the 50km range. The improved missile will utilize a gimbaled directional warhead, a technology that until now has only been used by the US and Russia. This technology allows for a smaller warhead to destroy the target missile.[16]

Prithvi Air Defense Exercise

PADE (Prithvi Air Defence Exercise) was conducted on November 2006 in which PAD Missile successfully intercepted a modified Prithvi-II Missile at an altitude of 50 km. The Prithvi-II Ballistic Missile was modified successfully to mimic the trajectory of M-11 missiles.
DRDO plans to test the Anti-ballistic shield against missiles with a range of 1500 km. The test will be conducted with a modified Prithvi missile launched from a naval ship and the anti-ballistic missile launched from wheeler island. The interception of the target missile will take place at 80 km altitude.[17]
On March 6, 2009 DRDO carried out a second successful test of PAD interceptor missile. The target used was ship launched Dhanush missile which followed the trajectory of of missile with range of 1500 km. The target was tracked by swordfish (LRTR) Radar and destroyed by PAD missile at 75 km altitude.

Advanced Air Defence (AAD)

Advanced Air Defence (AAD) is an anti-ballistic missile designed to intercept incoming ballistic missiles in endoatmosphere at an altitude of 30 km. AAD is single stage, solid fuelled missile. Guidance is similar to that of PAD: Inertial Navigation System, midcourse updates from ground based radar and active radar homing in terminal phase. It is 7.5 metres tall, weighs around 1.2 tonnes and a diameter of less than 0.5 metres.[19]
On 6 December 2007, AAD successfully intercepted a modified Prithvi-II missile acting as an incoming ballistic missile enemy target. The endo-atmospheric interception was carried out at an altitude of 15 km. The interceptor and all the elements performed in a copy book fashion validating the endo-atmospheric layer of BMD System. The launch was also shown through a video link at control room of DRDO Bhawan, Delhi.
The sequence of events of the test was as follows. At 11 a.m. the Prithvi missile lifted off from Launch Complex III at the Integrated Test Range (ITR) at Chandipur Orissa. Radars at Konark, Paradip detected the missile and were continuously tracking it. The target information was sent to Mission Control Centre (MCC) for further processing. MCC classifies the target, calcuates the trajectory of the missile and assigns the target to AAD Battery located on Wheeler Island, 70 km across the sea from Chandipur. AAD is launched when Prithvi reaches an apogee of 110 km. AAD with the help of midcourse updates and terminal seeker manoeuvres itself towards the target. AAD makes the direct hit at an altitude of 15 km and at a speed of Mach 4. Radars detected formation of a large number of tracks, signifying that the target had broken into multiple pieces. The thermal cameras located on Wheeler Island also picked up the direct hit through thermal images[12]
Due to two successful interceptor missile tests carried out by India, the scientists have said that the AAD missile could be modified into a new surface-to-surface missile that could be possibly named as ‘Ashvin’. AAD intercepted a missile at 15 km from the surface of the earth, thus the missile could be used as a surface-to-surface missile. [20]

Swordfish Long Range Tracking RADAR

Swordfish is a target acquisition and fire control radar for the BMD system.

Deployment

According to scientist V. K. Saraswat of DRDO the missiles will work in tandem to ensure a hit probability of 99.8 percent.[21] Induction of the system into services is expected to be in 2011.

Phase 2

Two new anti ballistic missiles that can intercept IRBM/ICBMs are being developed. These high speed missiles (AD-1 and AD-2) are being developed to intercept ballistic missiles with the range of 5000 km.[22] The test trials of these two systems is expected to take place in 2011.[23] The new missile will be similar the THAAD missile deployed by the U.S.A. These missiles will have to travel at hypersonic speeds and will require radars with scan capability of over 1500 kilometers to successfully intercept the target.[24]
India is also planning to develop a laser based weapon system as part of its Ballistic Missile Defence to intercept and destroy missiles soon after they are launched towards the country. DRDO's Air Defence Programme Director V K Saraswat says its ideal to destroy a ballistic missile carrying nuclear or conventional warhead in its boost phase. Saraswat further added that it will take another 10-15 years for the premier defence research institute to make it usable on the ground.[25]

#425 KHYBER

[Apparently, the wise Hindus on this forum have all the answers to what ails Pakistan and how set them on the righteous and peaceful path. Hmmm. Last time I check ...]

It's "checked" not "check" (it's obviously not a typo). And stop checking with your madrassa resources.

Apparently, the wise Hindus on this forum have all the answers to what ails Pakistan and how set them on the righteous and peaceful path. Hmmm. Last time I check Hindustan was still a byword for the degeneracy known as caste system and horrific poverty and world-wide coolie suppliers. It is easy, once you have escaped the miasma called India, ensconced in the West, to parrot 'India is shinning, Pakistan and Muslims is source of all our problems' mantra. Going by history, Hindu-dominated India is not going anywhere fast: the best that I can envision are islands of prosperity in a sea of dehumanizing poverty and filth that will a target of many Slum dog Millionaire movies that will shame the India shinning delusional crowd.
A word of advice to Hindus, get rid of Modi before you are able to give lecture in ethics to anyone.
http://pukhtunkhwatimes.blogspot.com/...

http://thepathans.blogspot.com/

Aleph, That's hilarious & thanks for the other info.

VRV #422

{{DRDO was busy developing more and more types of missiles but never the anti-missile systems.}}

Yeah, DRDO is completely feckless. There's no way they'll be able to develop a multi-layered ballistic missile defense system.

They are so incompetent that they actually managed to have two Prithvi missiles collide in mid-air, not once but on two separate occasions!

[Hint: you are behind the times. Read up on the PAD and AAD programs.]

Iron,

Do u really think that India has any shield against missile attacks either from Pakistan or China?

DRDO was busy developing more and more types of missiles but never the anti-missile systems. In the absence of such systems it's nothing but MAD (Mutually Assured Destruction) for India and Pakistan/China.

hamidget, U r a bhindoo convert. Don't forget that.

Though purely from an American point of view, if both the Indians and the Pakistanis wipe themselves out of the gene pool the better it is for the world - more resources to the productive and resourceful. One is a beggared and buggered nation (pakistan) and another is going to be one soon (it is half way there) (though has been raped buggered and beggared for many years before that)

They have started with the Paksiatnis. India is next..

As they say pox on all the houses(T)

actually he is wishing death on many more pakistanis, and in the process suggests India could be willing to take the loss.

His strategy is simple - calling your bluff. In the process you have got cold feet now.

In fact I would, say that the Pakistani Nuclear Bluff was called by India long time back (almost a decade back). Dont think the Indians are scared of this now (atleast the PM MMSingh seems to have said so recently).

AS things stand, Pakistan does not appear to have the nuclear teeth any more?

Hasho, Alephnull never suggested that (what ever be your fight with him - that was not his saying)!

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#411 Posted by AlephNull
Algay writes: "I rarely read your tripe"

Hahaha! Algay besides wishing death on millions of Indians your other skills such as lying and plagiarizing are on the rise too. I remember during the tsunami and the devastation afterwards in India, you were wishing death on Indians just to look better. Want me to post your nuggets from that era? Those were last of the original posts from you, until today when you again wished death on Indians by way of exchanging nukes.

إتش بي الخاص بك قد تنÙ?جر العجيزة مع الحيوانات المنوية

Profane language.

Re: # 408

Dear Bhai Pardesi,

Your last paragraph is a ray of hope for 825 million poor of India. Pakistan has 122 million poor out of 173 million. The brains leading the two countries promote themselves as the best but are actually damaged beyond repair to be chasing toys like armies, nuclear bombs and space rockets. Let us hope that sanity would rule over the subcontinent, one day.

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Hasho Pandhiani #406

I rarely read your tripe beyond the abusive salutations in the first few lines. This time I made a special exception, went back to #360 and waded through the ponderous verbiage to the penultimate paragraph.

I concede that only an intellect as subtle and incisive as yours could have come up with that profound insight. I'm so sorry I plagiarised from you - I will be eternally in your debt. Next time I'll be sure to pay you royalties.

---------

To other enlightened moderate Pakistanis - those playing up their supposed military strength and in other ways trying to use the blackmail threat of imminent Talibanization to extort money from the US and concessions from neighbours - I say:

Talibanize and be dammed!

Re: # 406HASHO....SAYS,' like the scantly armed Pathans can't walk towards Islamabad."...Ignorance has no limits,Mr.Hasho...Pathans can even walk towards New delhi and teach u guys how to take shower,the ones(taliban)who wants to walk towards islamabad are not all pathans and they have no support of moderate educated pathans,the ones who are educated , modern and secular are elected by vote and they ruled from islamabd and new delhi several times.
http://pukhtunkhwatimes.blogspot.com/...

http://thepathans.blogspot.com/

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When european economic market was being put together, they went little overboard and tried to set standards for everything, even condoms. when the specifications were published, spokesman for every country (from sweden to greece and everyone in between) protested that this average condom size was too small for their males.

Moral of the story - stay away from this topic. But some Pakistanis are too idiots to always brag about it as if they have been certified by some authorities that they are bigger than Indians or any other nationalities.

If you guys have any brains, focus on your fking collapsed economy, beggar politicians, your army that's constantly raping you, low standards of education etc etc. All this assumes that you have some pride left and dont spend all your waking hours looking at your size in front of mirror.

And just to be fair let us Indians worry about fking "RR track" and other poverty issues like absolute miserable poor folks rather than trying to send men to moon and sun and trying to prove that we are the best minds in the world. No one will respect us for space achievement if one sees 70% of our population as kangals walking around you when one lands in shining India.

Re: # 400

Only an Indian would love milions of dead human to resolve a political problem.

This comes from a paki!

Algay, Thanks for rehashing what I wrote in my post to Trichmir.

"The people that are talking about taliban taking over Punjab or walking towards panipat, simply forget that this is not the 17th century. Now the most heavily armed Pakistan army can't walk towards Panipat like the scantly armed Pathans can't walk towards Islamabad."

Can you think of something of your own? it is always Dwakin's meme or my posts.

I got to say you wish death on millions of Indians and Pakistanis in better English though!

borivili_express #399

Hindvi, welcome back.

#402
Well said, AlephNull.

Romair needs to get out more.

hamid mian,

It seems that now alt-F is getting in the game as well. Do you think it is time for him to send his group to help those who have been displaced from swat?

bulleya #392

{{....is it possible that when people were reciting poetry in delhi and inventing the zero in bangalore (or wherever else), similar barbarians rolled down from afghanistan, beat the crap out of everyone and went back......then came down again.......and again.....and again......}}

Yes, we are still in the age when the horse and the sword ruled and Islamic fanaticism was enough to convert brigands into an irresistible force.

{{gene pools don't change overnight......there is a reason that for a 1000 years, these guys came and had their way with everyone in south asia.....}}

The Taliban (and especially the Pakistani Punjabi Taliban) are a special breed with a unique genetic endowment. They are immune to the effects of fuel-air explosives, artillery shells and all modern munitions. It is impossible to disrupt their communications - look how the Pakistan Army was unable to jam their FM broadcasts in Swat (or was it Bajaur?). Their vehicles don't need diesel, petrol and lubricants to run. They may even have uqabs and ababeels on their side.

They are going to face a decently-equipped Indian Army in basically flat terrain - the plains of Punjab and the deserts of Rajasthan - and wipe the floor with them.

{{....all indians should be rooting for the pakistan army in swat....if these guys aren't stopped in nwfp, trust me, there is no one in india who will be able to stop them.....}}

Good. Let this natural evolution occur. Personally, I'm rooting for the Taliban. Before they reach Wagah they will have to take over Faisalabad, Gujranwala, Lahore and clean these cities of enlightened moderates. It should be amusing to watch that happen.

Once the Punjabi Talibani reach the international border, they are going to encounter a population in Indian Punjab, that is highly sympathetic to militant Islam and to the Talibani cause and will welcome them as liberators. They will be unstoppable.

Re: # 399

Any possible India-Pak war now will be very different from the previous war because of the new missile-based delivery capabilities.

India has one hundred nuclear armed ballistic missiles (Agni-1 and Agni II), and Brahmos the new supersonic cruise missile. The Indian Army is well trained, equipped and highly professional, and so is the Pakistan Army.

While nukes are a deterrent, even in a possible conventional India-Pak war the ballistic missiles inventory does matter. The Pakistani conventional warheads can reach all of India and can be very devastating, as was observed by many analysts when India contemplated surgical strikes after Mumbai attacks last year.

The ballistic missile inventory of Pak Army is substantial. It comprises Ghauri III and Shaheen III IRB’S; medium range Ghauri I and II and Shaheen II, and short range Hatf I- B, Abdali, Ghaznavi, Shaheen I and M -11 missiles. All the ballistic missiles can carry nuclear warheads. Nuclear and conventional weapon capable Babur Cruise missile is the new addition to Pakistan’s strategic weapon inventory. The number of ballistic missiles and warheads are almost the same as those of India. So there is a parity in nuclear weapons, which is a deterrent.

http://www.riazhaq.com/2009/01/india-pakistan-military-balance.htm l
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Algay, No sindhi would want independence, if it means killing innocent Punjabis. Only an Indian would love milions of dead human to resolve a political problem.

Humanity should be ashamed of having people like you in its midst. tho!

ye aleph class 1 hai bhai

what he calls low yield are between 20kt to 100kt weapons. at the low en there are expected to be 60 at the high end 100. so even at the low end they are enough to take oiut the 5 indian metros and there surroung service/industrial base and the 15 class 2 indian cities in short pakistan may go back to the stone age but indian wont escape the bronze age either. the mass of the indian pop will survive but so will the mass of the pak pop, but what will not survive is the skilled set and the industrial/service base

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Hasho Pandhiani #396,

I think a nuclear exchange will be good for you. You might get an independent Sindh (and more water flowing down the Indus once big dams and headworks in Paki Punjab have been obliterated).

It may also be good for the Baluch. They may have a better chance of booting out the Punjabis who have parked their fat behinds in Gwadar.

Algay, that is called gui main dum nahin, batain indians ki kum nahin.

Just to help this fascist, India and Pakistan should fight a nuclear war. what kind of sick, perverts come from India.

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shankar #388,

{{But its no consolation that all the Pentagon computers predict that an indo-Pak war will go nuclear.}}

So let it go nuclear. Some dozens of low-yield nukes are not going to wipe India out. In return, India can take simple steps to ensure that for decades Pakistani Punjab will not be able to sustain a population at anywhere near the current levels. It will be the end of the Punjabi Muslim wannabe Munghol empire. What emerges from the rubble will be far less of a problem than the thing we have to deal with now.

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shankar #: ....i have started looking at historical trends to figure out what will happen in the future.....

....how in the world did barbaric afghans (hamidm mian's ancestors) again and again conquer a much more sophisticated south asian population......

.....is it possible that when people were reciting poetry in delhi and inventing the zero in bangalore (or wherever else), similar barbarians rolled down from afghanistan, beat the crap out of everyone and went back......then came down again.......and again.....and again......

how did they do it.....

...could it be that ghauri and abdali were no more sophisticated than mullah umar and fazlullah.....all indians should be rooting for the pakistan army in swat....if these guys aren't stopped in nwfp, trust me, there is no one in india who will be able to stop them......

gene pools don't change overnight......there is a reason that for a 1000 years, these guys came and had their way with everyone in south asia.....

It is strange to see Chowk Indians (including some of the unrepentant right-wing bigots) obsessed with radicalization in Pakistan while ignoring it in their own backyard. The recent arrest of Col Purohit, a serving Indian military officer involved in bomb blasts in Muslim neighborhoods, should be an eye-opener for all Indians. The inflammatory speeches ( watch the Hoodbhoy video I posted) by the Sangh Parivar at huge rallies and deliberate distortion of history textbooks to whitewash Hindu history and to remove positive role of Islam and Muslims in India, Sanskritization of the Hindi language, massacres of Christians and Muslims, etc. should give any right-thinking Indian cause for serious alarm.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 388 Shankar

The best scenario is one in which Pakistani civilians exert effective control over the military, or the military itself distances itself from a jihadi strategy of encouraging provocation by infiltrators. If that does not happen, then a war (that eventually goes nuclear) may result. Sad, but true.

Re: # 388

What do you mean by Pentagon computers predictions - do you think they are running simulations?

pew,

{{But, in the end, I really have no idea.}}

Nobody does. But its no consolation that all the Pentagon computers predict that an indo-Pak war will go nuclear.

I'm sure the pentagon is busy running contingency plans. When it boils down to Bangalore getting nuked or NY getting nuked; they'll choose the former.

Re: # 379 Shankar

"...
I still have a hard time believing that the Pakistani army wont fight them..."

Beyond the usual stated reasons why Pakistan may not fight the Taliban, there is one reason that I think has not received enough attention and that is the possibility of large scale desertions and mutiny in the Pakistan Army following sustained, long internal operations against Pathans. If you recall, after Operation Bluestar, there was one incident of mutiny in a battalion of new recruits. The Taliban War is many times larger and offers much more potential for incitement.

dude,

{{I was hoping of an answer on the likes of U.S./India parchuting a few 100 Jai/Veeru's to secure the weapons from Gabbar's den.}}

Yeah right!:))
Our glorious Black cats couldn't even save an unarmed Jewish couple at the Nariman House...& you think they will defeat the elite Pak units assigned to guard those dispersed nukes.

Re: # 379 Shankar

That is speculative - I have no idea how a nuclear Taliban scenario will unfold. I suspect that they could be deterred from nuclear strikes, but may use the nuclear shield to continue to launch terrorist operations. But, in the end, I really have no idea.

I agree with you that India should avoid getting sucked into a war. The problem is how do you deter terror operations shielded by a nuclear umbrella? The US-Soviet Cold War was fought through proxies and one of the rules was that there were no direct operations (e.g. terror operations) inside each other's territory.

ellora,

{{Disappointing ? It was a heaven sent opportunity for them to prove their sincerity}}

I'm not defending the pak govt's foot dragging. however, its noteworthy that GoP did formally admit that the terrorist strike in Bombay had its roots in Pakistan. I think that's a first.

I'll bet you if Mushy was in power, Pakistan's response would be 10 times worse.

Re: # 382

I don't think the Indian politicians have the balls to do it unless something disastrous happens first

I should have also mentioned - I am happy that the Indian politicians don't have the balls to start a war.

Re: # 379

[America, European Union ,Russia & Israel; each in their own way, will goad India into starting a war.]

Shankar - Who will bell the cat? I don't think the Indian politicians have the balls to do it unless something disastrous happens first.

I was hoping of an answer on the likes of U.S./India parchuting a few 100 Jai/Veeru's to secure the weapons from Gabbar's den.

Re: # 377

Shankar - I think we need to stop replying to people (Pakistani or Indian) who think nuclear war is the solution. They don't belong to the civilized world.

#323:
"The "good" guys in Pakistan ... are the civil society who believes in resolving disputes with dialogue.

Everybody forgets this. Just before the Mumbai attacks, the Pakistani foreign minister was in Delhi. Both he & Zardari were making very promising & sincere statements of working things out.

I think the Mumbai attacks must have been terribly disappointing to them.

Disappointing ? It was a heaven sent opportunity for them to prove their sincerity.

pew,

{{They probably would, I just think that when someone made the comment that the West has a probable strategy that a nuke war is the best way to denuclearize the Subcontinent is not being correct.}}

If the Taliban take over; all bets are off.
America, European Union ,Russia & Israel; each in their own way, will goad India into starting a war. There will be plenty of Indians who are dumb enough to fall for it. The people who will suffer the most will be Indians & Pakistanis.

I still have a hard time believing that the Pakistani army wont fight them. Unless there is an internal coup within the army.

So, as far as I'm concerned, I'm rooting (& praying) that their democratically elected civilian govt will prevail.

Re: # 376 That depends on whether the Taliban host Al Qaeda or not. If they don't, then the US might negotiate with the Taliban. If they do, then it might mean war.

guru dev,

{{India needs to evaporate these Anglicized Talibs in Pindi and I'bad first.}}

Yeah right...& then when we proceed to dip our lingums in the irradiated Ganges, we will all become sterile---population problem solved.

get out of this dangerous delusion that a nuclear war can be "won".

the scary part is there are enough buttheads like you on both sides that believe that..

Re: # 375

Pew - Agree with your statement. But my question was what is the US strategy if Taliban does take control of Pakistan (though not the nuke facilities) and the Pak military is no longer in control of country. Also, while this is evolving, the nukes have not been taken over by Taliban yet but there is a serious danger that it may happen sooner or later. What will the U.S. do then? Of course, this situation will be evolving at real time and the time difference between the situation described above and the Taliban taking control of the nukes will be days/weeks and not months probably.

Re: # 362 Dude

I think that it means that the Pakistanis have finally accepted US technology that gives sufficient command and control over Pakistani nukes, and the US believes that the Pakistani military is serious in preventing them from falling in wrong hands. I don't think it implies that the US has a finger on the self-destruct button on Pakistani nukes.

Re: # 357 Shankar

They probably would, I just think that when someone made the comment that the West has a probable strategy that a nuke war is the best way to de-nuclearize the Subcontinent is not being correct.

Re: # 352 Tahmed

"...e.g. whining about Jinnah, when in fact it was hindu jingoism (despite please by the englishman who started up the Congress Party to be more inclusive of muslims) that caused the rift,..."

My thinking on Jinnah has undergone a shift. I no longer hold him exclusively responsible for Partition, but I do hold him singularly responsible for making unrealistic demands that could never be met that resulted in Partition. My view is that he was thinking as a lawyer in which he could prolong a 'trial' and extract concessions in his favor. This turned out to be flawed - hence his comments about 'moth-eaten Pakistan'. His two flawed assumptions were that (a) Congress would never accept Partition, which in fact, it did against Jinnah's own personal preferences, and (b) there would be sufficient time to work out the details of the two Dominions. I don't think that Jinnah wanted the outcome that ultimately came about.

It is wrong of you to think that 'Hindu jingoism' had something to do with Partition. Do you think that Congress was 'Hindu' and 'Jingoistic'? Remember, there was a Congress ministry in power in NWFP until 1945, and that Khan Abdul Ghaffar Khan felt betrayed by the Congress in the end. Congress also had a Muslim as its President in 1946. The Sindh Muslim League almost reached a power sharing formula in 1945, but this was scuttled by Sindh Governor who dissolved the assembly. Do these facts square with 'Hindu Jingoism'?

Sapna,

'The military has been releasing regular reports saying it has killed Taliban militants in the region, but it has produced little evidence of the successes it claims. Journalists have not been permitted to observe the offensive and the army has not shown the bodies of the dead militants.'

http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/asiapcf/05/10/pakistan.swat.tal iban.fighting/index.html

Intl media is finally highlighting what many think abt Army Operation. The messy Operation created another crisis of refugees.

Army had the history of lying to outside world (esp the AQ Khan's sale of nuclear technology).

#370
I don't know who is primitive? The people who killed 5 million in Vietnam, the people who killed at least a million in Iraq and displaced couple of millions. The who built walls in Iraqi cities to separate neighborhoods. The people who occupy Afghanistan and the people who drop chemicals on poor civilians.
"Afghan girl's burns show horror of chemical strike"
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/22/20090508/twl-uk-afghanistan-phosphorus -exclusive-bd5ae06.html

I guess the definition of primitive escapes the so called enlightened Indians.

Hasho, that will be the right thing to do
and world will sigh with relief.

It is quite clear by now, Pakistani people
and state has no maturity and is led by
murderes and killers with no regard for human life. Pakistani nation as such is clearly has to evolve to handle nukes, they
are still primitive people, so nukes in
their hands are dangerous.

361, HAM pasand, U r a joker fuka.

Re: # 337 I believe that if a stable govt. emerges in Pakistan (civil or military) then whichever govt. is in power in Delhi will probably move ahead on it.

I think that India would want a settlement along the LoC. The Pak military does not want it, and I think that the Pak military now realizes that borders cannot change through military means.

what does US mean when it leaks news to NY Times, Wash Post etc. that they have the capability of securing Pak nukes if the need be (read Taliban takeover)?
A---r--j--u--n

The answer is very simple. They will nuke Islamabad and every part of Pakistan where they suspect the Pakistani nukes are hidden. Did they not do that in Japan? Didn't the SoS Hillary called to annihilate Iran?

Has the US admin, current or the previous one, ever taken the nuke option off the table?

Re: # 365

nkg,

.... on this mother's day i am declaring war on the horrible hindoos on chowk and calling upon the chowk authorities to ban them from this site of the pure ...... we pakis are quite capable of screwing ourselves without the hyenas helping us ..... and really, you guys need to look into some of the male enhacement treatments being advertised nowadays to help you with your self-esteem problems ......

Re: # 361
hamidm2...
take rest man....

Re: # 361

[ will hang up a dhoti-clad hindoo pinata so that the children can beat the crap out of it to get at the bomb shaped candy]

Yeah, the (candy) nukes will start falling out of the piñata's nether region and fall all over your children! I am sure YOU would enjoy the spectacle!

A happy Mothers Day to all Pakistani ladies...

Especially Gilani, Zardari, and Kiyani!

Guys - noone answered my question. Please enlighten me if someone has any theories about this?

Talking about nukes - what does US mean when it leaks news to NY Times, Wash Post etc. that they have the capability of securing Pak nukes if the need be (read Taliban takeover)?

Can one of the Chowk strategists throw some light on this please?

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

#324 Posted by TrichMir
The lesson from the history is that the losers' barbarians are winners' heroes.
The current barbarians, the western nations claim that they are the only civilized people in the world and thats why they have to export their civilization to the world. The methods of this promotion are: attacking smaller nations, killing their leaders, subjecting them to inhuman torture and dropping vicious bombs mercilessly on the unarmed and peaceful poor civilians. If you dare call them barbarians, they will call you terrorists and attack you with renewed vigor.

The bearer of the western civilization in the current world is responsible for first killing approx 5 million in Vietnam for no apparent reason at all. History has clearly shown that the barbarians had no reason at all to attack Vietnam. The history again will show that the barbarians had no reason at all to attack Iraq and massacre millions of innocent people there. Subjecting them to worst kind of torture, rapes and sexual perversions.

History will show that the barbarians from the West again had no right to stay in Afghanistan for the last eight years.

They attacked Afghanistan because Afghanistan was sheltering terrorists. Dealing with the terrorists is important but when you decide to stay in a country for eight years, you have lost all legitimacy. The current day barbarians still claim that the Terrorist group has moved to Pakistan. If they are following the Terrorists, they should move their armies to Pakistan and vacate Afghanistan immediately.

Dalai Lama and other Tibetans exiles live in India, sheltered by the Indian government. What if( Hypothetical scenario) a few years down the line, some of those Tibetans decide to launch terrorists attacks on mainland China, would that give China the right to attack India and topple the Indian government because India was sheltering the Tibetan Terrorists? Would that give China the right to occupy India for eight years? No, not at all.

The game the way it is always played is that once you occupy a country, you keep on going until you secure all areas of possible insurgencies.

The Pathans are caught up in the most vicious game of this century. No one is willing to listen to their pov. They lost their country to an occupation force. And then some dare to call them(the Pathans), the barbarians.

I feel your pain and I know you can't fight with every one. It is a historical mishap or an irony that unfortunetely the leadership of the Pathan resistance has fallen in the hands of the worst elements-the Taliban- these criminals only have experience in brutal suppression of the opponents. You win your country back by bringing everyone in under a big tent to fight the occupiers but these uncouth and the criminal elements of the great Pashtoon nation are not only destroying the internal cohesion of the great Pathan Nation, they are actually criminalizing the resistance fighters all over the world.

I dont' know but no matter how I feel about the Pathans( and we in Sindh have known them for centuries- There is an old Sindhi proverb that say never take your eyes off Kandhar as any thing going on in Kandhar will impact Sindh some day), I do feel that this Taliban force needs to be crushed by the Pathans themselves, for the saner elements from the Pathan nation to rise and take over their land and free it from all the imperialists, occupying forces.

The people that are talking about taliban taking over Punjab or walking towards panipat, simply forget that this is not the 17th century. Now the most heavily armed Pakistan army can't walk towards Panipat like the scantly armed Pathans can't walk towards Islamabad.

These are bad times for the Pathan nation but true Nations emerge victorious after the bad times.

Yaar all Indians have to do is wait....the Pakistanis have done such a fantastic job of ruining their country all because of a) illfounded want of parity with India b) messiah syndrome to deliver salvation c) being a condom for anyone who pays.

These traits are now genetically embedded in the dna of pakis.

Re: # 350

[BJ2 #346: OK then - Sorry that we hurt your feelings in 1947. Sorry that we think India forced itself on Kashmiris. Hope that makes you feel better.]

No, those trivial things do not. Here is what you need to feel sorry about...

(1) Sorry that your folks hijacked IC-814 and killed civilian passenger in cold blood!

(2) Sorry that it has been nine years but Pakistanis on this site lack the guts to admit that obvious fact! (Shame on you all -- every one of you gutless folks!!)

(3) Sorry that you sent in those "jihadis" during Kargil, sorry that you supported them as "freedom fighters"!

(4) Sorry for the Mumbai bombings, sorry for the Delhi bombings, sorry for the Rajasthan bombings, sorry for the countless other bombings...!

(5) Sorry for taking so long to apologize for all those above bombings!

(6) Sorry for the inability for the very obvious fact that your forefathers made total asses of themselves in 1947, as a consequence of which you all look like total, total, (and I mean totally total) asses even to this day!

{{I don't think that the rest of the world will sit by while nukes are exchanged. The US has a huge interest in preventing that from happening.}}

Pakistan has 100 nukes that are widely dispersed. You think they wont launch even one (& guess where), if there is a military assault on Pakistan? Even Chuck Norris & Jack Bauer could'nt do it

Bholanath,

"Just so you know that there are many of us Indians (even on Chowk) who are rooting for the good guys to win in Pakistan."

Anglicized Dracu-alla was also a Talib. Todays Talibs and feudal, anglicized gandus who formed ML were conceived by Angloes. Dracu-alla also said that India needs to have Muslim rule, same as Sharia.

When one has taken in a alien distant land Abrahamic dostum in your rectum you cease to be a normal human, one becomes haiwan who destroy everything organic, local culture and community. India needs to evaporate these Anglicized Talibs in Pindi and I'bad first.

#354 i know indians are very good at coming up with insults. must be your superior culture.

Re: # 352
Tahmed - [the only thing Indians have a right to complain about is the "proxy war"]

There is a word for a country that wages a proxy war against another country. Guess what it is (hint:something to do with being a terrorist state)

Romair,

ha ha! you deserved that tongue lashing from Trich Mir. Hell hath no fury than a pathan insulted!

Trich Mir sahib, go easy on him. He is married to a pathan. I think he was angry p'rolly cos his wife had a headache.

BJ2: But more seriously, the only thing Indians have a right to complain about is the "proxy war" whereby mullah nuts were used as tools by the Pakistan faujis. And there Pakistan is paying the bitter price, and the realization has come across the country that these "pious warriors" are nothing but common criminals. Everything else is self-serving bs - e.g. whining about Jinnah, when in fact it was hindu jingoism (despite please by the englishman who started up the Congress Party to be more inclusive of muslims) that caused the rift, and it is hindu jingoism that ensures India is a political lightweight that - far from influencing neighbors is seen viewed as a hostile nation - in its own backyard despite its massive population.

BJ yaar, pakis are idiots. It is always someone else's fault. All this natak a out swat and stuff, refugees etc is all dramabazi....these are the same people who will send their kids marching in karachi by the thousands with fake blood smeared on their foreheads, fake bazookas and stuff...crying "death to israel" when the Israeli army was whipping the palitubbies around....screams upon screams of "indiscriminate killing"...."Disproportionate force"..."War crimes" etc......yet no pak army is doing far worse and these chuckleheads are clapping. Lives of palestinians are more valuable than lives of pakistanis for pakistanis..hehehe..dumbasses!

BJ2 #346: OK then - Sorry that we hurt your feelings in 1947. Sorry that we think India forced itself on Kashmiris. Hope that makes you feel better.

Re: # 348

Dude40000.

Dude, what is your REAL nick?

TrichMir:

"dal roti would be your only diet"

Are you sure roti is indic? I know 'poori' is but not too sure about roti.

TAhmed sahib, when it comes to Pakistan, there is a LOT to whine about!

Re: # 341

BJ2 - You forgot to mention about Mossad/CIA/RAW

So who is winning? Pakistani Jihadi army or the taliban jihadi warriors? Hope this fight last 10 or so years...ameen, sum ameen!

i meant #338, not #339.

#339 OK dude. Peace, then.

I read this piece. All I can figure out is the writer has a problem with (1) Obama, (2) Zardari, (3) Karzai, (4) Western imperialism, (5) Drone attacks, (6) Foreign occupation (unless it is Talibanese), and (7) America using American money the way America wants to.

hamidm: We could celebrate Nuclear Day. What a wonderful idea. Parents could dress their kids up like like little nuke bombs, and they could go from door to door saying "trick or treat"! But wait..isnt that what Zardari is doing already!

Re: # 336

...... if i could remember the date of the paki nuclear explosions

28-May-1998

Re: # 335

i thought #333 was nicer. ;-)

If you say so.

Re: # 325

Pew,
I have also heard that there was substantial progress toward an understanding on Kashmir between Mush and Manmohan...and I like the thought process they had.

As Hoodbhoy points out in the video, Kashmir has become the cause celebre for the radicals on both sides of the border and threatens the future of all of South Asia. Settling Kashmir is crucial to defeat the extremists and bring some normalcy to relations between India and Pakistan that could eventually lead to a common market benefiting all of South Asia.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

..... i am not a violent person, but judging from the horrible hindoos that infest this site a nuclear exchange might not be a bad idea ......... i think mankind will be better off without garden variety vegetarians like nkg and pepe - they make the taliban look like a bunch of boy scouts ......

...... if i could remember the date of the paki nuclear explosions i would throw a big anniversary party to celebrate the only right think the pakis have done in the last fifty years .......

i thought #333 was nicer. ;-)

Re: # 332

tahmed - Nice one about choona :-)

#330 what this means, genius number 12764 from India, is that you Indians will have to live another 60 years whining about Pakistan.

sri ram nkg: "The best option would have been to outrightly destroy Pakistan."

If you had poured 2% milk over the head of the elephant man when praying for the destruction of Pakistan, then this would have come true. But you used choona instead. What more can one expect from a stupid Indian - trying to be more clever than your elephant man god!!

Re: # 328
Pew...
You are right...Pakistan may not be very vital for USA now, but India is. USA will not like to see Pakistan damage India, while getting destroyed....Bush and Blair was fighting India's battle everywhere...Obama may be little diferent (Bush and Bliar was keen to induct into UNSC permanently)...

Re: # 328

Talking about nukes - what does US mean when it leaks news to NY Times, Wash Post etc. that they have the capability of securing Pak nukes if the need be (read Taliban takeover)?

Can one of the Chowk strategists throw some light on this please?

Re: # 312
shankar...
Talib takeover of Pakistan may cause Nuke weapons in the hand of Talibs...If USA able to nutralize it, then is OK...
Now the problem is most of the pakistanis are islamists/jihadi...Talibs realy represent their mentality, including those who have received decent education in West....This is the reason, Pakistan will be in US eye for long time...The best option would have been to outrightly destroy Pakistan....But that is not possible now...And as long USA will fight this war, China ,with help of some section of Pakistani officials will aid jihadis/talibs....

Re: # 321 Shankar

I don't think that the rest of the world will sit by while nukes are exchanged. The US has a huge interest in preventing that from happening.

TrichMir #324 That was an earful!! But Field Marshall Bulleye has a secret mechanism for dealing with earfuls - it is called IOEOAE. (In One Ear, Out Another Ear).

PS: As for panjabi dal khors, that is better diet than the gosht khors. You should have more of it.

Re: # 318 Bulleya

Perhaps you are right. And that is why I think that Jinnah was careful in the way he ambiguously couched his Pakistan demand that defense and foreign affairs would remain the preserve of a united India, because he perhaps recognized that 'his' Pakistan (even if it included undivided Punjab) would be insufficient to secure NWFP (which even the days of the British had a 1 crore development budget and 2.5 crores to pay off the tribes). I think that Jinnah was against Partition - but his other proposals were deemed so unacceptable that Partition came.

I think that the current problems are strategically overwhelming for Pakistan (threats from NWFP AND simultaneous perceived offensive threats from India - although you would never believe me if I said that India has no interest in a Taliban state and that a stable, non-threatening Pakistan is in India's best interest).

There is news that Pakistan has moved 3 or 4 brigades from the Indian border to Swat. This could have happened only if they believed Indian assurances coveyed through the US. So, I think that the Pakistan military is finally understanding where their biggest threat lies.

Re: # 300 Riaz

The way ahead is possibly through the diplomatic 'non-paper' that Musharraf and Manmohan Singh were negotiating before the lawyers' strike fatally weakened Musharraf. The basic formula was 'no change in borders, free trade, exchange of people between the two Kashmirs, increased local autonomy for both sides'. The New Yorker magazine had a good article on the secret talks. Manmohan Singh conceded as much during the recent election campaign.

Re: # 318 Bulleya

Read Bulleya's post, this is the mentality of some Pakistanis that really pisses me off. Bulleya seb, what was good for Afghanistan is also good for Pakistan. They are coming and they will bring order and rule of law in your chaotic land and they will make you a good Muslim. You were wrong, as usual, if you had thought that your areas would keep safe from the warfare, mayhem, chaos and killings in Afghanistan that might have never happened without the active support of Pakistani establishment.

Bulleya seb, the barbarians from Afghanistan and Central Asia were able to kick your ass in every single war because you were (and you still are) too pussy to fight, although every single time you enjoyed numerical and material superiority over your enemies.

Dear sophisticated south Asian seb you should also not forget that your dress would still be consisted of a lungi only, dal roti would be your only diet and without the influence of an Afghan language, namely Dari, your Urdu that seems to be the whole proud of every single Punjabi, would be just another third class Indic language.


Bulleya seb, I think you are too dumb to give any advice to Indians who are apparently more pragmatic and far-sighted than you can ever be. They make fun of you, they often post here your own prolific 'predictions' to make you realise how idiot you have been in all those years but you prefer to remain, and will always remain, one stubborn ignoramus.

Ajeya,

The "good" guys in Pakistan (& there are very many) are the civil society who believes in resolving disputes with dialogue.

Everybody forgets this. Just before the Mumbai attacks, the Pakistani foreign minister was in Delhi. Both he & Zardari were making very promising & sincere statements of working things out.

I think the Mumbai attacks must have been terribly disappointing to them.

Its one thing to have disagreements between neighbors; but there are enough idiots on both sides who think a nuclear solution is "winnable"

Re: # 320

I am not sure of the exact number. Whatever it is, it solely depends on Islamabad for survival. Once that state funding, protection and patronage is gone, it is over for them.

Romair,

If the taliban take over Pakistan & her nuclear weapons; there will be nuclear war--& the battle field will be India & Pakistan.

a)there are enough passion on both sides to settle this; once & for all

b) Even a mistaken launch will result in nuclear retaliation; from either side.

c) The rest of the world wont admit this; "but one good way of finishing off Pakistan/India
nuclear weapons is let things escalate"...at least then they wont reach NY.

Verily, we are all F*ked

Re: # 319

[They can not survive on their own. They don't work; have no jobs because they have no skills, whatsoever. Parasites without hosts perish right away]

Freehussaini - How many (active) do you reckon there are in NWFP and FATA? closer to 20,000 or closer to 100,000. For simplicity sake lets not count the Punjabi Taliban yet.

Re: # 318

Let us not forget that this particular menace in Pakistan was created, patronized and nurtured by the Islamabad government as the fugitives arrived from across the border after the U.S. action in the post-9/11 Afghanistan. They themselves were no such thing as a wave. If Pakistan neutralizes them effectively, they will fizzle out right away. No Panipat for them. Just jails and mental hospitals. They can not survive on their own. They don't work; have no jobs because they have no skills, whatsoever. Parasites without hosts perish right away.

...history repeats itself...

....i have always wondered how barbarians from afghanistan and somewhat lesser barbarians, from central asia, were able to conquer a much more sophisticated south asia, again and again, and again....

.....now i know.....

.....south asians were always too divided to be able to face up to the invasions......anyone in india, as i told one of our indian colleagues, two days before mumbai terrorist attack, who thinks this taliban wave is going to stop at lahore, is highly mistaken....this is what pakistan thought when it was pushing taliban in afghanistan.....

this wave is going, at least, to panipat.....if pakistan doesn't stop it at swat........

indians need to look at this at a strategic level......it is not in their interest to have the usa fighting unnecessary wars in afghanistan......or in pakistan......

Re: # 316

I must have said something blasphemous, by your standards. You did not like what I said but this is what India's history is; make, break, make, break.

Read! India: A history. John Keay

#304 freehussaini

[Once India gets into Pakistan's shoes, which, eventually, it would,...]

It is not for nothing that Pakis have been branded as living in their own little delusional fantasyland, called Pakiland.

Keep dreaming. Unfortunately, it won't come to pass. This is like Pakis praying in their mosques for the Indian space mission to the moon to fail. Did not happen now, did it?

Tsk tsk tsk....

#312 shankar

[Just so you know that there are many of us Indians (even on Chowk) who are rooting for the good guys to win in Pakistan.]

And who are these "good guys"?

dude,

arjun was/is an Indian who took great joy in posting anti-Pakistan & anti-Islam views/links; & took great pride in not caring about what other people thought about his behavior. I think Chowk banned him about a 100 times; but he managed to sneak back in.

Wonder if Chowk staff finally managed to permanently block him off...

He's one of the primary reason why tahmed has become a grumpy ol' man:)

Or, maybe arjun took hamidm's advice & got laid!:)

In any case, our resident rottweiler Hasho thinks you smell like arjun...

Re: # 312

Thanks.

We know him more than you do. I am not retorting. Just telling you the truth. No offense.

Khyber & Freehussaini,

Just so you know that there are many of us Indians (even on Chowk) who are rooting for the good guys to win in Pakistan. Taliban takeover of Pakistan is India's worst nightmare.

Besides, whatever you guys think of Zardari; you gotta like what he says...

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/India-not-a-threat-says-Zardari/ar ticleshow/4504948.cms

Taliban movement has nothing to do with Islam or ideology. They are illiterate and jobless people. Not a single Taliban belongs to a well-off family. In Swat three types of people reside i.e. (1) kissan (peasants or working class, which are Gujjars and Kohistanis), (2) Kashran (nominated people by jirgas who help implement orders), and (3) Mashran (advisors, lumberdars or deputies of the Maliks). Above them are Maliks who rule. The Taliban leadership forcibly employing the jobless youth and paying them monthly salary from Rs3,000 to 8,000 along with arms and weapons. For money they do everything which they are ordered to do. From where this money is coming, from where these weapons are pouring in – this is not a million dollar question, which has no answer. Obviously there is foreign backing and support of all kinds.
These Taliban have not only defaced Islam or Shariah but they have also destroyed the Pakhtoon culture. Pakhtoons are traditionally hospitable and respectful. But the Taliban have demolished this concept. They deceive, cheat and betray – contrary to the Islamic code of ethics. They in the name of talks hold hostage government officials, police or FC men and demand ransom like thugs and kidnappers. They raid mazars of pirs, have desecrated Rehman Baba and Khushhal Khan Khattak’s tombs and kill the spiritual leaders – basically for the sake of looting money from their abodes. They have threatened the promoters of art, culture, language, poetry, etc. Above all the women, girls, female workers have been barred from playing their due role either within the four walls or under the circumstances working for the cause of humanity. If male doctors are not allowed to treat female patients, from where would the female doctors or nurses come to save their lives?
The Taliban have established “Shoba Aroosa� (Wedlock Department), particularly in Charbagh, which conducts forced marriages of girls with the Taliban. The head of Shoba Aroosa gives three days notice to parents of the girl and threaten of consequences if not turn up with their daughter. Any Taliban – either already having one, two or three wives, or unmarried – is wedded without the consent of the girl and the parents comply with perforce.
Only a Taliban commander or leader, if killed in the fight against security forces, is offered janaza – all other common dead fighters are buried without janaza or other Islamic rituals. Many ask why the Taliban fighters wear masks and hide their faces. The only reason seems to be that the Taliban have a number of foreigners in their ranks and files who want to hide themselves from public.
This fact has not yet been reported as yet that not a single Taliban family has offered their sons for suicide bombing. All the children or boys used for suicide blasts were either picked and isolated from relative families, or kidnapped from other parts of the provinces and Afghanistan. They are either forced, allured or injected with ‘suicide injections’ or used in remote-controlled suicide vests.
The Prime Minister, in his nationwide television speech, has rightly pointed out that the militants not only violated the accord, attacked security forces and targeted government buildings but also started taking hostile action against the people, the civil society, women, children, schools, colleges, hospitals, public places, businesses and other outlets. They exposed themselves against Pakistan, its existence, its constitution, its judiciary and courts.
Under such circumstances how far should have the government and the military showed restrained? Chairing the Corps Commanders conference on May 7, the Chief of Army Staff, General Ashfaq Parvez Kayani, vowed that the army would employ all resources to ensure a decisive ascendancy over militants. The operation has been launched and the President has pledged the armed forces would be called back only after they flushed terrorists out of Swat.
The operation may not be easy and it may take time but the time has come when the nation should show patience and complete resolve against the elements which want to take Pakistan hostage at gunpoint and put the country’s future at stake.
The Taliban are in panic, they received the first blow as they have lost the moral ground. The locals have refused to become their human shield; they are migrating in thousands to safer places because of the barbarism perpetrated by the Taliban. They are fully cooperating with the security forces and want the militants flushed out of their area. The people from across the country are ready to help settle the internally displaced people and join hands with the security forces to fight against the terrorists. Political observers have termed it the first defeat of militants. And one is sure, with such a great national unity, the final defeat of the elements of hate is not too far. God bless Pakistan.PAKISTAN ZINDABAD........
http://pukhtunkhwatimes.blogspot.com/...

http://thepathans.blogspot.com/

Re: # 309

Hasho - Thanks for digging this for me.

Bill Raggio has no college education. Never was an officer in the marine. He spent most of his time in National Guards and the only qualification he had was his blog. The known neocon Michael Ledeen is his sponser. It is the Same Michael Ledeen who came up with the stupid revelation of Iraqi WMDs via italy.
This is one stupid group of people that has completely discredited. NO one believes them except for the known stupid dumb of this site ---a-r__j---u+++n 303. Here are two article abt Bill Raggio.

Bloggers, Money Now Weapons in Information War
U.S. Recruits Advocates to the Front, Pays Iraqi TV Stations for Coverage
By Jonathan Finer and Doug Struck
Washington Post Foreign Service
Monday, December 26, 2005; Page A24
BAGHDAD -- Retired soldier Bill Roggio was a computer technician living in New Jersey less than two months ago when a Marine officer half a world away made him an offer he couldn't refuse.

Frustrated by the coverage they were receiving from the news media, the Marines invited Roggio, 35, who writes a popular Web log about the military called "The Fourth Rail" ( http://www.billroggio.com/ ), to come cover the war from the front lines.
After military officials in Baghdad said Roggio could not be issued media credentials unless he was affiliated with an organization, the American Enterprise Institute, a conservative-leaning research organization in Washington, offered him an affiliation, according to an entry on Roggio's blog. He and two other bloggers launched a new Web site a month ago ( http://threatswatch.com/ ), where he has posted many stories about his time with the Marines. Most provide detailed accounts of patrols or other outings on which he accompanied U.S. forces.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/12/25/AR20051 22500659.html

Here I another one.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/stephen-kaus/military-blogger-bill-rog_b_134 77.html
Military blogger Bill Roggio recently has been getting Internet mileage by flogging the Washington Post for maligning him about his work as an embedded blogger in Iraq. Great, except that Roggio is wrong and the Post is right.
Roggio is good at this sort of campaign. He helped orchestrate the right wing campaign to oust CNN Chief News Executive, Eason Jordon over his alleged comments that the military was targeting journalists. Here, Roggio has taken an essentially accurate Washington Post story about U.S. military information operations, that includes an account of his embedded work on the frontlines in Iraq, into an Internet firestorm.

Roggio gets a twofer: sliming the Post and keeping his buoyant reporting on the U.S. military in the limelight. Various other sites have reflexively piled on and the Post has even corrected three incidental points. It is not for nothing that Roggio has maintained a relationship with Machiavelli expert and super neo-con Michael Leeden.

The already delayed but necessary decision by the prime minister against the terrorists has given a ray of hope to me and other overseas Pakistanis who are very much concerned about the bloodshed of the innocent people at the hands of terrorists.It is flabbergasting that Sufi Muhammad of TNSM and his Taliban allies who have never been to a school or university neither they know human values and civilisation are trying to impose their ideas by infiltrating into private lives at gunpoint.
The fragrance of flowers has been replaced by the smoke of the explosives by those who want the imposition of their ideas, the product of the unrefined minds at gunpoint.
Extremist gangs are using terror as their weapon against the travel made by human civilisation in achieving human dignity.
It is indispensible that besides military actions the Pakistani nation gets united in this war for survival.
Also I request the religio-political parties as not to impede government efforts in eliminating terrorists for political gains.The nation this time is in one voice against extremism, militancy and terrorism. People across the country have welcomed the Prime Minister’s decision to call out the army for a decisive action against the militants in Swat and adjoining areas. They have offered their fullest support to the government as well as the security forces to eliminate the elements of hate and complete the operation to the end.
This unity and unanimity amongst the nation has been seen after a long time. Until recently the general public was divided over the issue of Taliban, but the blatant violations of the Swat agreement and subsequently the Nizam-e-Adl Regulation 2009 exposed the real face of the Taliban, which annoyed not only the people of Swat and Buner, but also the general public. Swatis and Buneris for the first time demanded action against the Taliban.
PAKISTAN ZINDABAD
http://pukhtunkhwatimes.blogspot.com/...

http://thepathans.blogspot.com/

Re: # 303

Who is Arjun?

Re: # 303..#303 Posted by shankar ..HASHO EVEN does not where is khyber pass,forget about his curiosity about my background.He could not translate,''MUNG YU DA KHYBER ZALMEE'''..LOL JUST MAKES me laugh....thanks for calling him...''Your deductive reasoning is crappy'''

freehussaini's views makes sense and sounds educated.
http://pukhtunkhwatimes.blogspot.com/...

http://thepathans.blogspot.com/

No reason to remain divided
Editorial:...DAILY TIMES.COM
Friday’s candle-lit “vigil� at Liberty Market in Lahore “ and protests in other cities “for the promotion of peace in the region� and “for the safety of the country� were an endorsement of the action by the army in Swat. The gathering in Lahore was impressive and, understandably, had more women participating in it than men. The conflict in the Swat region has displaced a lot of civilians and those who will suffer the hardships of refugee camps most will be women and children.

Justice (Retd) Nasira Iqbal read out to the Lahore gathering: “We pray to You, God, to help guide us through these difficult times. We ask you to protect us from those who threaten the peace and unity of our country. We pray for those who have sacrificed their lives for us. We pray to you to bring us all onto the right path of unity, justice, tolerance, equality, compassion and understanding for mankind�. The national anthem sealed the moment with a feeling of national unity.

The Concerned Citizens of Pakistan group which was prominent in the marches staged in favour of the reinstatement of the judges fired by General Musharraf; appealed for funds to fulfil our commitment to national unity. Their slogan was fair and just: “We do not want the military to kill people during the operations but we want terrorism to be eliminated�. The South Asian Free Media Association (SAFMA) also appealed to the media to isolate and expose the extremists who seek to impose their will on the people through coercion and destroy the writ of the state.

The gatherings belonged finally to those among us who care for human rights. They were neither liberal nor conservative; or we can say they represented an amalgamation of both attitudes. There is no one, no matter how isolated he or she may be in society, who will deny the value of human rights. The unanimity achieved at the vigil and other such gatherings — including the one in which the famous Indian author Arundhati Roy was also present in Karachi — was against the violation of human rights by the Taliban. These also underlined the support of the beleaguered citizens of Pakistan to the soldiers of the Pakistan army who are laying down their lives in Swat today.

The TV channels too reflected the state of the nation. All surveys quickly put together by the channels showed the man in the street in complete sympathy with the military action by the Gilani government in Swat. If there was some small reservation about it, it was overwhelmed by across-the-board support that was in no small part owed to the endorsement of the military action by the PMLN leader, Mr Nawaz Sharif. To the credit of Prime Minister Gilani and President Zardari, their strategy of getting the parliament involved in the enforcement of Nizam-e Adl in Swat had swung general opinion around after the Taliban reneged on their pledges.

The Swat events were pursued and highlighted by the electronic media. The big hurdle in coverage was the inability of the reportage to be even-handed given the coercive authority of the terrorists who killed journalists on the slightest provocation. Some TV discussions inclined in favour of the “pro-Taliban� local demand for sharia despite the fact that the Swat population was subject to intimidation and strict censorship. The “liberals� complained that the sharia demanded by Sufi Muhammad ran counter to the rights bequeathed by the 1973 Constitution. The conservatives wanted to go with the people of Swat and their demand for sharia-type speedy justice.

There was some bitterness on TV. In one unfortunate instance, a perennially inflamed Imran Khan, who leads a small party, called Dr Pervez Hoodbhoy, a well-known intellectual of Pakistan, an “American agent�. In fact the liberal-conservative divide gave rise to frequent charges of “disloyalty� to the state against the liberal discussants. There was a definite Urdu-English divide too, at times, in newspapers under the same ownership, which led to some speakers railing against the “two streams� of education in Pakistan, as if English-medium education was some kind of treason.

Now that there is unity on the subject of Taliban, one should forget the old disputation. The liberal opinion can hardly benefit from claiming that events have proved it right. What is important is to retain this unity and not allow division in times of crisis to cripple the national response to the enemies of Pakistan.
http://pukhtunkhwatimes.blogspot.com/...

http://thepathans.blogspot.com/

Re: # 302

Dear Bhai KHYBER,

The Pakistanis on chowk appear to be willing to discuss the flaws in their society with a frankness not yet so visible among our neighbors about their own society. This can be attributed to the sense of urgency among chowk Pakistanis who see their country's very survival at stake. Once India gets into Pakistan's shoes, which, eventually, it would, the Indians, too, might start talking about their society and the country like chowk Pakistanis. This laughing at and mocking Pakistanis would cease.

Hasho,

Dude is too polite to be arjun.
Your deductive reasoning is crappy. Turns out Khyber is a Pakistani pathan.

Re: # 301..freehussaini...I respect ur views and agree,but I was pointing to discuss positive and constructive
criticism not crap,We can say alot of negative things too but its not healthy discussion.
http://pukhtunkhwatimes.blogspot.com/...

http://thepathans.blogspot.com/

Re: # 297

Dear Mr. KHYBER,

Nice to see you back. Take it easy. Indians have every right to be on a Pakistani site. That is what the web is about. It eliminates the borders and brings the people close; interact, communicate, exchange diverse ideas and opinions, antithesis to thesis to synthesis. No offense. My opinion.

Re: # 298

Anil: It's rather long presentation, but I found the video to be the most honest account of the Kashmir problem which is surrounded by all kinds of misinformation, disinformation and spin from all sides. Hoodbhoy puts it in historical context, shows the cynical role of the politicians and extremists on both sides, and talks about the realities of the Kashmir tragedy as it affects both Kashmiri Muslims and Hindu pandits who have been dispossessed and dispersed, some pandits have become radicalized like their their counterparts among Muslims.

I recommend it to any one interested in understanding the Kashmir issue in depth.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LLnuglrW34
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 298

Anil: It's rather long presentation, but I found the video to be the most honest account of the Kashmir problem which is surrounded by all kinds of misinformation, disinformation and spin from all sides. Hoodbhoy puts it in historical context, shows the cynical role of the politicians and extremists on both sides, and talks about the realities of the Kashmir tragedy as it affects both Kashmiri Muslims and Hindu pandits who have been dispossessed and dispersed, some pandits have become radicalized like their their counterparts among Muslims.

I recommend it to any one interested in understanding the Kashmir issue in depth.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LLnuglrW34
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Riaz:

Thanks for positing Hoodbhoy's video on Kashmir.

Hoodbhoy's closing remarks are as if he spoke my words and took my script.

Parties need to be patient to produce game changers. New generation, new economic realities, necessity for trade, and purging of hatred from books are example. I also liked what Rahman Ali (labor expert??) had to say.

The fact that a Pakistani organization can produce the documentary and call TNT debris in historical context, and not as the present basis for solution, is reason to be optimistic.

Re: # 274...#274 tahmed32...I think we should start ignoring these bunch of ignorant Indians who dont know anything or don't bother to look at stinky problems of India but talk about Pakistan,they should pay attention to india's poverty,ignorance,pregnancy tests, touchable and untouchable issues,hindu fanatics etc,they have no right to come to a Pakistani forum and discuss our issues.
http://pukhtunkhwatimes.blogspot.com/...

http://thepathans.blogspot.com/

Re: # 274 tahmed32

"...assuming you indians are saints and pakistanis are devils, what do you accomplish by coming on chowk and venting your spite? ..."

One would have thought that the answer is obvious: Agreeing with Dude's reason that Pak-inspired terror and Pak attempts to invade Kashmir gets Indians 'excited' about Pak (and you have to agree with this), and once it so, then it becomes a 'contest' between India-Pakistan especially since most Pakistan governments have a hard time accepting that there is terror directed from their soil towards India. I am sure that there is a somewhat analogous narrative in Pakistan.

Pretty unfortunate, but that's the way it is.

Sorry hamidm2 miaN, Kashmir stays in India -- for perpituity.

Your loud protestations notwithstanding!

However, in appreciation of your hard work here on that issue -- let me leave you with some cheerful thoughts!

Hamidm2 miaN, the Kashmiris (except those in the POK) could not have been left in gentler hands!

Here's a link to a video on Kashmir by Pervez Hoodbhoy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LLnuglrW34
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Hamid mian,

Your Quetta is where the actual prize money is situated. The rest, as you said, is just "dramabaazi". Have you read this article: ----------------
Balochistan is the ultimate prize

Strategically, the Pakistani province of Balochistan is mouth-watering: east of Iran, south of Afghanistan, and boasting three Arabian sea ports, including Gwadar - a harbor built by China - which is the absolute key. The only acceptable scenario for the Pentagon is to take over Gwadar, gaining a prime confluence of Pipelineistan and the US empire of bases. The die has been cast. - Pepe Escobar (May 8,'09)

http://www.atimes.com/
-------------------
Punjoos are all in cohorts with international forces, and then of course, you have read this one:

The great land grab
By Irfan Husain
Saturday, 09 May, 2009 | 02:13 AM PST

To get an idea of the scale of the land grab, the UAE alone plans to acquire close to a million acres in Pakistan, according to the Food Policy Research Institute. Others in line are Qatar and Saudi Arabia. In most cases, these governments have teamed up with large business groups like the MAP Services Group, Al Rabbie and Al Qadra.

http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/the-news paper/columnists/16-irfan-husain-the-great-land-grab-959
--------------
pure-e es are royally screwed. they will shortly become something akin to somalia, yemen, lebanon, or eriteria. with over 170 million nutcases across arabian sea, the whole world will be kept busy.

Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 290

http://www.longwarjournal.org/staff.php

Maybe this is wrong - can you send me the links please Hasho...Thanks.

Bill is the Managing Editor of The Long War Journal, the president of Public Multimedia Inc., a nonprofit media organization with a mission to provide original and accurate reporting and analysis of the Long War, an Adjunct Fellow at the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies, a Hoover Institute Media Fellow, and a contributor to the The Weekly Standard. His coverage includes the wars in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Somalia, Lebanon, and Iraq, as well as al Qaeda's operations, tactics, and strategy.

Bill has embedded with the US Marine Corps, the US Army, the Georgian Army, the Iraqi Army, and the Iraqi police in Iraq in 2005, 2006, 2007, and 2008, and with the Canadian Army in Afghanistan in 2006. His articles have been published in The Washington Times, The New York Post, The National Review, The Toronto Times, and Die Weltwoche. His photographs have been published in the Wall Street Journal and the Washington Post. He also presents regularly at the US Air Force's Contemporary Counterinsurgency Warfare School on the media and embedded reporting. Bill served as a signalman and infantryman in the US Army and the New Jersey National Guard from 1991 to 1997. Bill can be reached at bill.roggio@longwarjournal.org

Re: # 288
Can you send me a reference saying Bill was a Customer center person. Because this is what I have:

Bill Roggio is an American commentator on military affairs.[1] Roggio is notable for having his opinions quoted, or criticized, by a variety of newspapers and broadcasters.[2][3][4][5][6][7] Roggio is currently the managing editor of The Long War Journal.

Prior to leading a team of online commentators Roggio published the online weblog The Fourth Rail.[1]

Roggio was an active duty soldier in the United States Army in the 1990s

Re: # 288

Hasho - I hope to god you are right that www.longwarjournal.org is all propoganda and not substance.

Ahah _a-a-a-r-j-u-n_103 writes under dude40000:
"I have been following the war in Pakistan on the ground very closely at Bill Roggio's website: www.longwarjournal.org."

Bill Roggio has no background in military affairs. The guy was a phone customer service guy like most of the Indians are in Bangalore.

Anyone quoting him is completely ignorant of what is going on that part of the world.
Nationalreview is site of arch conservatives and supports waterboarding and other methods of torture.

NRO is one conservative site that supported the sexual perversion by the US redneck army in Abu ghartib, Iraq.
You know what you are when you quote from that site. A sexual pervert.

Re: # 284

Thanks.

hamidm:

Bhrava, thanks for the invitation but we'll take a pass for now. But allah forbid, if you guys ever decide to revert to the faith of your grandpas or those of the sons of the soil, Baba Nanak or Ahmad Mirza, give us a call.

#275:
Same same people ? Good heavens, I should hope not.
I am just pointing out to good old Hamidm that sometimes people get divided and stay divided. This sentimental stuff about not being able to divide people is not becoming to someone of his stellar good sense. ;-)
Give the Kashmiri Muslims a little time and they will realize their duty to their Hindu/Buddhist compatriots. And if they don't, no matter. The sun will still rise.

Re: # 282

Infact, I have been following the war in Pakistan on the ground very closely at Bill Roggio's website: www.longwarjournal.org.

I have found him to be quite credible - obviously in a war there is always the probability of propoganda. But over years, I have started to appreciate what he is doing. And if you believe him - its scary, because the Pakistan Army is loosing everyday inch by inch. I wish Bill is wrong though.

Re: # 282

There already is an article/discussion.

http://article.nationalreview.com/print/?q=NTJkYjUwNGE0Yj RiYzAyMmRlNjFhZjE2YzBiMGJjZmU=

Re: # 279

You can build an article on that.

Re: # 279

That is a good one. I like it. Thanks.

tahmed32 #274, #275:

Your post with the reference to "uniting the kashmiri people with pakistan" immediately followed the one that referred to raping Christian nuns. I found that oddly piquant for a reason I can't quite pin down. Can you?

Re: # 274

Tahmed - Below is an analysis by Bill Roggio. It is exactly news and analysis like this that worries people in India and the world.

BILL ROGGIO
The Pakistani military is currently battling the Taliban in a region just 60 miles from Islamabad. The government and the military are touting success, and they want us to believe the defeat of the Taliban is at hand. But the statements from Pakistan remind me of the story of the Japanese soldier who realized that his country was on the verge of defeat at the close of World War II. He told his friend the news, and his friend’s response was: “Impossible. The radio continues to report crushing defeats against the Americans.� The soldier replied: “Yes, but I noticed these glorious victories keep taking place closer and closer to the Japanese mainland.�

#274 tahmed32

[#272 so, assuming you indians are saints and pakistanis are devils, what do you accomplish by coming on chowk and venting your spite?]

Some psychological satisfaction. Like what one gets by kicking a dog who was trying to take a bite out of your ankles. Especially since our muslim-appeasing votebank-politics government won't do anything about it.

Wholly justified. And feels good. It's like ice cream. The satisfaction doesn't last forever. But boy, is it good while it lasts!


[is it the same indian culture that causes you to form mobs to rape christian nuns and burn 12 year old girls in their homes for the crime of being muslim?]

Why don't you name ONE culture where this kind of thing doesn't happen? The difference between Muslims and the rest of the world is, however, that in non-Muslim countries, this kind of criminal act is NOT sanctioned by the governing party, OR the priesthood, and it is NOT supported by the population in general. BIG DIFFERENCE. VERY BIG DIFFERENCE.

(I don't expect you to give a civil response to this, of course. As usual, you'll start name-calling. But that's par for the course for you.)

Re: # 274

Tahmed - there are problems with India and not everyone is a saint. I for one am not going to deny these problems.

I don't know who Ranjit is. So I am going to say pass on that one.

And I am not going to applaud when something bad happens in Pakistan.

I come on chowk to do exactly what the site says at the top discuss "India Pakistan Identities Ideas".

#271 tahmed32

[#269 that is a very tired old excuse i have heard countless times from indians on chowk when i have asked them this question. the reason you people come to chowk is to spread your personal miseries, complexes, grudges on a pakistani website. ]

It is not a tired old excuse. Almost two hundred (TWO HUNDRED!!) people were killed in India by your men ONLY A FEW DAYS AGO.

However, it is not surprising that you would find this a "tired" old excuse.

ellora: read what hamidm carefully, not the "indian twist" to it done by dost mittar. hamidm was talking about uniting the kashmiri people with pakistan. i have yet to meet an indian who does not start off by harping about "we are same-same pipple" and "1947 was big, big tragedy, oh no". rest assured - even without the enlightenment one receives on the indian spite on chowk - pakistanis are very happy with 1947.

#272 so, assuming you indians are saints and pakistanis are devils, what do you accomplish by coming on chowk and venting your spite? applauding whenever anything bad happens in pakistan - whether it is an earthquake (when ranjit the indian was here changing "die paki die" even as hundreds of poor villagers were actually dying under their fallen homes).

does it improve your digestion? alleviate whatever suffering you indians have? is it the same indian culture that causes you to form mobs to rape christian nuns and burn 12 year old girls in their homes for the crime of being muslim??

Thank you in advance for your pious enlightenment on these questions.

#222:
"it took a long time for germany to be reunited, korea will take longer and so will taiwan ..... but you cannot divide a people for ever ........."

This is a joke, right ? I mean coming from someone from Pakistan. Hint: a 100 years ago people would have scarcely imagined it would be this hard to travel from Delhi to Lahore.

But there are other examples. Fifteen hundred years ago, large parts of Afghanistan were part of a North Indian political structure.

Texas and Mexico. Constantinople and Rome. It happens all the time. Can't complain just because Dar-ul-Momeen becomes Dar-ul-Kafir. Remember it was Kafir before it became Momeen.

Re: # 271

Repeating an old reason does not make it incorrect by any means.

#269 that is a very tired old excuse i have heard countless times from indians on chowk when i have asked them this question. the reason you people come to chowk is to spread your personal miseries, complexes, grudges on a pakistani website.

Re: # 261

My brother,

I understand your rage for I suffer from it too. Prolonged exposure to indecency can rob us of our decency. We have to retain our decency. Please, see the link below. My nephew sent me this.

Mercy Corps newsletter@mercycorps.org

Re: # 268

Nope - there are many things wrong in India that need to be fixed. And it will take a lot of time and energy to fix those.

I wouldn't be worried about Pakistan if it wasn't on India's borders - and if it wasn't exporting terrorism to India.

#266 I am glad all is fine in india, nothing but streets paved with gold and IT billionaires and philosophers everywhere. so you have time to worry about pakistan.

#265 he doesnt plan to go anywhere right now - in his dream world, he is still Julius Cesar-in-waiting, ready to be of further service to the nation when called upon. (he volunteered to take charge of the country when it seemed the military response to the taliban was not forthcoming).

Re: # 260

nexusa - I am not a Pakistani, I am an Indian. And yes, many Pakistanis are in denial about many things (even now).

God bless them.

#264 Posted by tahmed32 on May 9, 2009 7:20:12 am

"he forgot to mention the terrorist godfather musharraf. whom the dud bush gave billions of dollars to support his terrorist habit"

.. and perhaps promised to get him green card and other protections. I wonder if Obama will honor that.

#262 pardesi: he forgot to mention the terrorist godfather musharraf. whom the dud bush gave billions of dollars to support his terrorist habit.

#261 hit imran khan where it hurts - in his outstretched hand. i wrote to his organization that i contributed to his cancer hospital fund in the past, but given his attempts at subverting this long-delayed response to taliban attacks on pakistan, he wasnt getting anything more in future.

Al Qaeda's Global Base Is Pakistan, Says Petraeus ..

Looks like, after Taliban, Pakistani soldiers will need to work with USA to go after Al Qaeda. Lots of work and top dollars ahead.

***

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124182556238902393.html

MAY 9, 2009
Al Qaeda's Global Base Is Pakistan, Says Petraeus
U.S. Central Command Chief Says Group Has Shifted Operations There, While Afghani Taliban Plan 'Surge' of Their Own

By YOCHI J. DREAZEN

WASHINGTON -- Senior leaders of al Qaeda are using sanctuaries in Pakistan's lawless frontier regions to plan new terror attacks and funnel money, manpower and guidance to affiliates around the world, according to a top American military commander.

Gen. David Petraeus, who oversees the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, said in an interview that Pakistan has become the nerve center of al Qaeda's global operations, allowing the terror group to re-establish its organizational structure and build stronger ties to al Qaeda offshoots in Iraq, Yemen, Somalia, North Africa and parts of Europe.

The comments underscore a growing U.S. belief that Pakistan has displaced Afghanistan as al Qaeda's main stronghold. "It is the headquarters of the al Qaeda senior leadership," said the general, who took the helm of the military's Central Command last fall .. A ring of Tunisian suicide bombers who were recently apprehended in Iraq appear to have received their directions from al Qaeda figures in Pakistan as well, he said. "There's absolutely no question about these links," he said.

Re: # 259

freehussani mian,

......you cannot show any decency or mercy when you are dealing with vermin like the taliban and their backers in the army and 'civil society' ...... folks like imran khan, qazi hussain and hamid gul should be thrown in jail, tried and hung for treason before they can do any more damage ............ it would probably be better to hang them first and try them later! ........ pearls and decency are wasted on some animals ...........

The prospect for Pakistan is bleak - the country is fragmented along religious and regional lines and the forces of darkness are righteous in their beliefs and unrelenting in their determination. There is no civilian leader in sight of any merit and military (sigh!) the only other viable option left to fill the vacuum. Denial is just a coping mechanism, perfectly understandable, if one has to carry on living ones life. I sympathize with those centerists Pakistanis who love their country like you and I but feel helpless as to how to change things.

Re: # 257

Nexususa - Well said. Its not that Pakistanis here on Chowk don't understand this, infact they do. But they are just too ashamed to admit.

Re: # 243

You are a very decent man, Sir. Retain your decency. We don't have to become like them. No, offense.

I feel badly for self-respecting, proud, centerist citizens of pakistan. Watching Zardari being interviewed yesterday on PBS was embarassing to say the least. He may well have had his palm outstretched and be repeating "Gimme, Gimme, Gimme". Not too long ago, Musharraf was here shamelessly touting his book while still representing the country. Add these up, and you can see how the public perception is being shaped of your country here in the states - to use a crude but popular colloquial expression Pakistan has become "our bitch".

Comparing US involvement in Af-Pak with the British or the Russians is erroneous. The US does not have any colonial aspirations, public opinion here will just not allow a large scale involvement. Instead, the US presence there is to achieve a narrow tactical objectives ie. containing and targeting elements that it thinks may cause harm to America and ensuring that pakistani nuclear weapons do not fall in the wrong hands. It can only do so with the cooperation of the pakistani military and any existing civilian leadership. So this co-dependency is in US' interest. We hand out the dollars, you toe the line. And on and on it goes...

"..... a mind is a terrible thing to waste (if you have one)"

+++++

Yeah, yeah, yeah I know. The Cuban pigs were trained by America to do the dirty against Castro, failed, and came back to haunt them, the blowback, and so on and so on. But it wasn't quite the same level of blowback that you lot are facing. It's of a different dimension altogether. These Shalwar-Kameez clad decapitators were meant to liberate various lands, but years and years ago people were warning Pakistan that this rabble would come back to haunt them, and they have, big time.

#253 hamidm: But we got musharraf still around, and needs to be hauled in court and put on trial alongside baitullah masood and other terrorists. so the last 10 years are relevant. You cant put Zia's jabra on trial. nor can you hang a jabra. so the last 30 years are academic.

#252 continued: and of course, the fact that 3000 people were killed in New York by these same gangs that were given sanctuary in Pakistan by musharraf was no problem. as the nation knew (until their own precious necks were on the line), muslims dont do such things. it was a jewish conspiracy.

and even if it wasnt, "sovereignty" (as every pakistani knows) means you can harbor murderers inside your border as long as they merely threaten other countries, and those countries dont have any right to come after these crooks. this is all in "International Law", by Dr. Masadi, Lulu Publishers Inc.

Re: # 252

tahmed mian,

..... you have a very short memory ..... you talk about the last ten years; what about the thirty years before that when the taliban were created and nourished by the state ...... the first malakand war was fought and lost during bhutto's time in the early seventies and sharia was implemented during benazir's first govenment in the ninetees ...... and i am not to sure about public support - if you believe the reports on bbc, dawn and dailynews, the people are equally suspicious of the army ...... as one guy said on bbc: "the taliban and the army are brothers" ............ i am afraid at the end of all this, we will be back to square one with another peace deal and the taliban holding more territory than before ..... and next time they will be in islamabad with the help of the army ........... all moslems are brothers - arn't we?

hamidm #248 This time the military is serious I think - after all, the next step for the taliban was fauji plots!! The horror!! As if slaughtering prisoners was not enough, as if forcing swati girls to "marry" arab/uzbek scum was not enough, as if press-ganging swati boys into taliban ranks was not enough, as if shutting down Swati resorts was not enough.

to be fair to the military - for 10 years they had scumdog musharraf protecting these terrorists, and for 10 years you had pakistanis happily lapping up musharraf's claim that this was "America's war". All that is over now. And the military has the public support it needs to do its job of protecting pakistan.

Re: # 239: "The fear of Taliban acquiring Pakistan's nuclear arsenal is manufactured by the elite to garner diplomatic and financial support from the West."

This author is inconsistent in his own arguments. If Pakistan is a Taliban state, as the author believes, then why is there worry about or the need to manufacturing the threat of Taliban taking over the nukes?
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 246

dost mittar ji,

.... jokes aside, i think punjab would be better off as an independent country ...... in my saner moments - often under the influence of bad hooch - i don't see anything that we have in common with madrasis, or for that matter, with the incorrigible pathans or the chinks of assam ........

..... if you start a movement for independent punjab (not khalistan) count me in ..... i have had it up to here with all these other people !

Re: # 247

bald pablo,

..... a mind is a terrible thing to waste (if you have one)

Re: # 245

tahmed mian,

.... the reason i keep on hedging my bets is because pakistanis do not have any deen or iman or a nickle's worth of integrity ...... you cannot trust a weel-fed paki, fattened on nihari and paye, as far as you can throw him ....... after all, he ain't no scrawny hondoo who you can chuck right across the ganges river ......

.......... even now i am not sure about this 'army action' ..... it is very possible that it is all dramabazi to get the billions of dollars in american aid to buy new bmw's for the next crop of lieutanant generals and import toyota landcruisers for the senators ...... let us not forget that these taliban were created, armed and supported by the establishment ..... it blows my mind to think that a 700,000 man army equipped with helicopters and tanks cannot wipe out 4-5000 taliban running around the hills without any shoes and armed with ak-47's and the koran ....... since you are a believer in the power of the koran, you tell me ..........

general kiyani zindabad!
baitullah mehsud zindabad!
maulana fazlullah zindabad!
nawaz sharif zindabad!
zardari bhutto zindabad!

......... and of course, sheikh rashid zindabad!

"..... remember the bay of pigs? ........... the taliban are our pigs - unfortunately they have decided to turn on our miami while spreading swine flu across the world"

+++++

The Cuban pigs didn't march to within 60 miles of Washington beheading people and bombing girls schools though.

hamidm:

"but you cannot divide a people for ever ........."

Tussi assaN naal pher katthay hona chaande hoa? Then zor se kaho: Akhand bharat zindabad!

#243 hamidm: are you shifting allegiances again? no more mullah fazlullah zindabad?

so who is the rising sun for today?

Pew_Research #240:

I don't think Urstruly was threatening Pakistani religious minorities with annihilation. Give Maulana sahib his due. I think he meant that the 'Hindus' (i.e. India) saved the Pakistan *Army* and civil administration in erstwhile East Pakistan from physical annihilation at the hands of the Bangladeshi citizenry (by getting them to surrender to the Indian Army). Whereas, in rump Pakistan, the same contingent will have nowhere to hide or run.

urstruly,

..... the dead taliban swine should not even be called 'jan bahaq' - they should be called 'murdar' and their corpses should be burnt ........ in order make sure the flu does not spread we should use the egyptian solution ..........

Re: # 235 Urstruly

"...you do not hate "corrupt ruling elite's" modus operendi to extort money from foreigners to kill their fellow citizens, their murdurous ways, and their actions..."

Hey, I thought that the Taliban started killing innocent Swatis and policemen first!

shankar mian,

..... remember the bay of pigs? ........... the taliban are our pigs - unfortunately they have decided to turn on our miami while spreading swine flu across the world ...........

Re: # 233 Urstruly

"...In East Pakistan, Hindus saved their ass from complete annihilation but this time they have nowhere to go..."

Chowk Staff:

That is a clear threat of 'annihilation' against Pakistan 0.1% minorities (Hindus, Sikhs, Christians). Urstruly should be reported to the US FBI.

Interesting read from Salim Mansur:

http://www.winnipegsun.com/comment/columnists/salim_mansur/2009/05/09 /9404656-sun.html

Pakistan basically Taliban state

There is frantic concern in Washington and elsewhere that Pakistan has reached its tipping point and might succumb to the Taliban forces entrenched barely 80 km (50 miles) from the capital, Islamabad.

But the concern is misleading. A country of some 160 million Muslims is not about to be overrun by the Taliban. On the contrary, Pakistan is more or less a Taliban state shaped by its origin and history.

This is the unpalatable reality that cannot be publicly discussed in Washington, London or Ottawa due to diplomatic niceties. It is also complicated by the patron-client relationship the Pakistani elite pursued with the U.S. over the past six decades as a means to counter India's dominant position in the region.

Pakistan was forcefully established by an elite on the basis of an exclusivist and bigoted idea that since India's Muslims constitute a "nation" they deserve a state of their own.

The perversion of Islam into a nationalist ideology hugely aggravated communal politics in undivided India that would not end with the partitioning of the subcontinent in 1947. Muhammad Ali Jinnah, the founder of Pakistan, ruthlessly planned this division when he called for direct action -- communal blood-letting -- by his supporters which led to the massive Hindu-Muslim riots known as the Great Calcutta killings of August 1946.

This act of terror made certain that trust between Hindus and Muslims was irreparably broken, and Britain was compelled to depart by partitioning India.

To recall this history is to have an inkling of the sort of a country that emerged as a result of terrorism followed by ethnic cleansing of the non-Muslim population -- most Hindus and Sikhs left or were forcefully driven out from present-day Pakistan.

Subsequently, the Pakistani elite declared the Ahmadiyyas -- a small peace-loving sect of minority Muslims -- to be non-Muslims, and persecuted them as the harbinger of further bigotry to be unleashed in the slide of Jinnah's Pakistan into a Taliban state.

The economic exploitation of former East Pakistan (now Bangladesh) by the ruling elite began with Mr. Jinnah imposing Urdu as the national language on Bengali Muslims with their own rich linguistic and cultural tradition. Eventually the two halves of Pakistan would tear apart in 1971 following civil war and systematic massacre of Bengalis by the Pakistani military.

Since 1971 the unremorseful and bloody-minded ruling elite of Pakistan -- civil and military -- pushed Pakistan deeper into a dependency alliance with Saudi Arabia.

It meant importing the Saudi version of Islam -- Wahhabism -- and its spread deep across the country through the rapid expansion of religious schools and mosques funded by money from the Gulf countries. The products of these schools and mosques are the Taliban "jihadis," or holy-warriors, who set forth for Afghanistan in the war against the former Soviet Union.

Steel fist

The Pakistani elite is corrupt, opportunistic and ruthless. Behind the conniving smile of the civilian politician is the steel fist of the military with nuclear weapons.

The fear of Taliban acquiring Pakistan's nuclear arsenal is manufactured by the elite to garner diplomatic and financial support from the West.

This is extortion brazenly practised by the elite responsible for making Pakistan into a rogue state with its people crushed by poverty. It is this reality that makes for terror and war in the region, and threatens peace beyond.

The US's Pak-what-the-Af policy is laughable....

Ha...ha...ha...

Re: # 233
urs...
Idiot...you katuas/muslas do not like to be change a system civilised way....bloody, what is the point in following 1400 year old tribalistic approach...world has moved a lot...many people are connected via electronic media...so, what you need is to follow the current constitution to change it...otherwise, there will be wave of uprisings and cause wanton destruction....

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Re: # 234

One thing is for sure that you do not hate "corrupt ruling elite's" modus operendi to extort money from foreigners to kill their fellow citizens, their murdurous ways, and their actions. Otherwise you wouldn't be so supportive of them. So what do you hate about them? their faces? their SUVs or their accents?

Re: # 233

Urstruly,
I hate the corrupt ruling elite as much as you do, but does it justify handing the country over a brutal band of Talibs? I think not. Even the mainstream Muslim ulema in Pakistan are now very critical of the Taliban behavior in Swat after the peace deal.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

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Re: # 231 Riaz

"I don't understand your vitriol against the Pakistani military."

Welcome to Pakistan's 2nd civil war!

Allahu Akbar!

Re: # 229

Urstruly,
I don't understand your vitriol against the Pakistani military. Most of the Pak soldiers are poor, hardworking Pakistani rural folks serving their country while you are an armchair critic attacking them in the most hostile way possible. The least you can do is cut out this nonsensical and hostile commentary.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Have you ever lived under Taliban rule?

If not, why would you want other people to live under their rule?

Do you know how many fathers were forced to give their daughters away, against their will, to illiterate, drug-dealing murderers?

joke goes like this..

a company of pakistan's mercenary fouj gets ambushed by freedom fighters somewhere in Swat. All of the surrender monkeys get killed except one. He lays down among the corpses and plays dead. A Taliban freedom fighter who was checking the corpses soon realizes that this harami was pretending. He decides to have a little fun before he dispatches the harami to join the rest of his companions who had just halaled amrika's namak. Taliban pokes his beyonett in that pretentious dogs ass. The dog opens one of his eye and says while crying "bhayya aap ko sharam nahiN aati shaheedoN ke saath mazaq karte hoay?"

...and tragedy goes like this...

under a direct order from fouj no paksitani journalist or media outlet is allowed to call dead pakistani citizens as "shaheed"; they can be called "jaan bahaq" but not shaheed. The mercenary fouj has made sure that all journalists comply with this directive by killing through extreme torture, an average 12 journalists per year for the past 9 years. Hundereds have been tortured during this period as well. The slave class, the proxy rulers by showing prostitutes on tv give an impression that media is "free".

shankar #226 you think hamidm will stop at Kashmir and losing Swat? Next step he will reclaim the Taj Mahal and lose Murree. Then Hamidm will demand Fatehpursikri, and lose Lahore Fort.

Riaz#225 agreed.

hamid mian.
#222

thats perfectly fine...you want to take a moral stand on Kashmir, go ahead..., curse India in the UN, at the OIC, in Beijing.. as long as you do it "peacefully".
we are in complete agreement...

if Pakistan wants nothing to do with India until Kashmir is "liberated" ; India will be perfectly fine with that as well.

There is nothing Pakistan has, or is exporting that is vital for India. OTOH, some Pakistanis yearn for Bollywood; like some Americans yearn for Cubans--

Pakistani DVD/CD shops should be burnt down---thank you Taliban. They sell/rent pirated Bollywood dvds & cds anyways, that's blatant theft of intellectual property---never mind the quality of such intellect, its the property of Bollywood---off with their heads.

Personally, I'm for no relations with Pakistan than this duplicitous double play of using your fundos to wage a guerrilla war.

One of the reasons you find some Indians gleeful about your civil war is that you are getting a good dose of your own medicine by the Frankenstein you created.

Re: # 223

It's totally misguided to create more militias...it's never worked. If history is any guide, it's much easier to arm than disarm large numbers of civilians.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 37

Riaz Mian,

Given a chance would you like to give tax to US to promote Haj Tours, build bigger Mosques, create more madarassas,guild Islami chairs in universities, create legislation to make US Laws Shariah-compliant and finally maybe establish Shariah-Qazi-Courts in US??

Guys! Consider this an interlude to the Indo-Pak mud fest.

TO SURVIVE THIS CIVIL WAR

Pakistan will have to straighten out its act in a major way if it wants to survive this civil war against the Taliban.

- First of all, we need to come clean with the Pakistani people. If they see that all we are doing is acting on American orders and the aid is being funneled directly into the usual suspect coffers it will never work.
- Pakistan would need to actually refuse the aid, show some back bone and own up to this war, show pride in itself and say straight out, “this is not who we are and we will never allow these barbarians any sanctuary in our midst.�
- There has to be a civilian military partnership especially partnership with the locals whose lives are being directly affected by the war.
- We would need to fight smart and stop pretending to be Americans. Why are we using helicopter gunships, tanks and artillery, this isnt Chumb Jorrian or a pitched tank battle at the Indian border? This is a fight with those who hold AK 47s and RPGs. The strategy can be fairly simple attack with superior numbers and watch the Taliban opposition melt away which would be a guerilla tactic. But as they do, hold the ground and once you stabilize it a bit bring in the displaced local population to return back to their homes.
- While the displaced people are living in camps they should be given military training so that they can learn to protect themselves. They should also be made aware of the nefarious designs of the Taliban, why they need to be fought and never allowed to ever take over their territory again. We don’t need them to learn aggressive military techniques only those necessary to protect and hold their positions. Nobody fights as well as the one who is protecting his own home we can count on this fact. We should arm them and leave a few soldiers behind who act in conjunction with the local squad control their territory. Move on and take back the territory one village at a time.
- In the process you are training and arming the population but this is a less risky strategy and would help people be much stronger then the current case. Moreover once the threat is entirely eliminated we can have a mass disarmament.
- Having an armed population would put every body on a timetable and on notice that their own skin may be on the line if they don’t do the right thing. Suddenly land reforms which have never occurred, rule of law which has never taken root will all have to be implemented just because you cant run rough shod over an armed people.
- Internationally, we could invite and actually dictate the kind of aid we need. Like developmental aid, reconstruction or education. Our credibility and respect would be enhanced world wide.

The Taliban will win hands down in every other case because they have earned their credibility. They are not in any ones pocket and stand for what they believe in and rely on their own resources. This is the greatest thing going for them and has to be countered in similar terms, if we don’t any victory would be short lived and only postpone the conflict to another day.

shankar mian,

.... the us has not been able to wrest cuba from castro for the past fifty years either ........... but that doesn't mean you or i will be able to smoke a cuban cigar in michigan any time soon ......... like is said, try smuggling in one from canada ........... it is a matter of principle ..... it took a long time for germany to be reunited, korea will take longer and so will taiwan ..... but you cannot divide a people for ever .........

:)
http://pukhtunkhwatimes.blogspot.com/...

http://thepathans.blogspot.com/

Riaz, calling me a bigot is a form of hyper-ventilation, because I'm not a bigot.

I have read the blog post, and it is bizarre and deranged. In the context about your earlier moral apologia for Islamist extremism in the UK in the context of terrorism, it makes sense, but in a way I am strangely dissapointed.

Re: # 216

Ganja is crying wolf and hyperventilating as usual...part of the pattern of behavior familiar to any objective observer of Indian bigots on Chowk. Anyone who is curious about the blog post (and alleged comments) should read it to find out what it REALLY says.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 213

"It's a clear sign that you are on the run. "

Actually I am convinced that Maulana Riaz Saheb is the Bagdad Bob for the Pakistani Islamists (especially Paki-Talibs).

Full of apologia for the Islamists and going around with the band baja defending the Islami peace deals with PAki-Talibs.

Maulana Riaz-ul-haq is the natural heir and product of Zina-ul-Haq's Islamization.

He would prefer to threaten Indians even while drowning in his sea of Islami ignorance.

Riaz blogs approvingly about how Islam is going to be the dominant religion in the West by 2050, bizarrely using a scaremongering Christian evangelical polemical video to make his point for him.

http://www.riazhaq.com/2009/05/demographic-trends-favor-muslims-in.html



Riaz also praises Saudi Arabia in the comments.

++++++++

Dude, when you inverted morality and made an apologia for Islamic extremism and the continuum of terrorism and suicide bombing in the UK the other day, I thought it was out of a fit of pique or bad temper. Now, I actually think you are deranged.

Re: # 213 Riaz

"There are people there worrying about it building tent cities and providing food, blankets and medicine. These poor refugees are still better off than your slum dwellers in a state of constant deprivation."


Allahu Akbar!
I am quite disappointed with your summary report. Only a sick and depraved mind finds succor for the suffering of his million countrymen who have lost their hearth and home at gunpoint in the deprivation of a neighbor.

Takbir

For those singing the praises of Indian democracy, here is a dose of reality by Bijo Francis:

The Indian Parliament is a joke. If you think this is merely the twaddle of a columnist who writes unpleasant facts about his country, you are wrong. The statement was made Monday by none other than Somnath Chatterjee, speaker of the lower house of the Indian Parliament.

And yes, he is right. The chair was expressing his concern about the behavior of the members of the Lok Sabha, the lower house of Parliament, when he found that the "honorable" members of Parliament were behaving in an unmannerly way, continuously interrupting the proceedings during a session.

Why did Chatterjee expect that the members he is supposed to control would "maintain decorum" from the moment they entered the Parliament? A majority of them have no past experience to stand on. Chatterjee will either have to sit back, enjoy his cup of tea and endure their behavior, or refuse to put up with them any longer.

Chatterjee's position is not much different from the average Indian citizen. Indians are forced to accept -- rather, destined to tolerate -- some of the worst anti-democratic and anti-people legislators the world has seen. Yet this happens in the name of democracy.
The chief minister of Gujarat, Narendra Modi, is yet another example. Modi is one of the chief conspirators of the Gujarat massacre. Report after report has accused him of being personally responsible for the massacre that killed more than 1,000 people in the Hindu-Muslim riot that literally burned the state in 2002.

At least in Modi's case the Americans were reasonable. The U.S. government in 2003 revoked his visa on the grounds that Modi was responsible for violations of religious freedom. The bureaucrats in the U.S. government are apparently more capable of reasoning than the five-star managers at Harvard.

Yet, all these specimens get elected again and again in the world's largest democracy. The question is how this is possible. If you expect an answer, I do not have one. However, I could suggest some indicators.

http://www.upiasia.com/Human_Rights/2008/03/04/is_democracy_a_joke_in_in dia/8658/
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 209

It's a clear sign that you are on the run. When you run out of arguments, you ask why are we talking about it. Go feed your hungry and build your toilets. It'll do your people a lot of good. Stop worrying about refugees in Pakistan. There are people there worrying about it building tent cities and providing food, blankets and medicine. These poor refugees are still better off than your slum dwellers in a state of constant deprivation.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

#210 yes of course. more tea?

#208 pabloganja: point taken. that was for dramatic affect with an argumentative, word-twisting, fact-twisting poster. of course indian politicians and military get credit for taking the platter and running with it, while our team dropped it. and so the nation, led by lawyers, had to retrieve it.

Tahmed,

One question from this simple minded and relatively uneducated Indian - what happened to the democracy that was handed to Pakistan a day earlier 62 years ago ? Was a collective decision made to forego it and enslave yourselves to your army?

You probably don't have the first clue about how stunningly ignorant you are about how democracy was developed and has taken root in India - rural, uneducated, poverty stricken India. Or how democratic institution building has happened. Anyway, it is your prerogative to indulge in rank nonsense.
Thankfully, there are Pakistanis who don't salivate quite as much at the thought of American uniqueness. You yourself can go back to being a sincere Uncle Tom.

Coming back to chowk after 4 years and watching the same silly pissing wars by middle aged men with inflated and content-free egos can be relatively entertaining...I agree.

Pakistan Paaindubad!

Now I know why the Land of the Pure is in the royal mess it is in - its best and brightest are busy debating the GDP of Botswana and whether India 'earned' its democracy or had it handed to it on a 'platter' WHILE A MILLION PEOPLE ARE REFUGEES IN PAKISTAN IN THE LAST WEEK!

"Handed on a platter to the Indians. Not earned the hard way, as we Pakistanis have just done (a point you obviously missed when you imply that Pakistan is still a dictatorship)"

++++++

Dude, do you really think that India hasn't struggled for her democracy, first of all in the Independance movement, and secondly during the last 62 years? Indian democracy isn't something that anyone in India has taken for granted, it's an ongoing attempt to consolidate institutions and principles in the face of grand inequalities and fissiparious tendencies. The only time Indian democracy was threatened during Indira Gandhi's emergency there was an uprising and she ended up in jail. Nobody handed anything to India on a platter.

plats #103 Concepts of the rule of law and democracy are in fact quite recent as far as India is concerned (and indeed most other parts of the world) - just 62 years ago, to be exact. Handed on a platter to the Indians. Not earned the hard way, as we Pakistanis have just done (a point you obviously missed when you imply that Pakistan is still a dictatorship). Indeed, traditional, caste-ridden India is about the furthest removed from democracy - so dont pretend that it is hardly indigenous to India. Nor is the rule of law indigenous to a society that was a patchwork of above-the-law maharajahs. And, tall claims of being mathematicians in ancient times, the fact is that the Age of Reason in Europe (from which the scientific method and modern science has evolved over the past 4-5 centuries) had nothing in India. Again, modern science was given to Indians on a platter by the british in the 19th century.

And, in addition to these piddly arguments you give me - I notice you simply covered up the stupid response you had earlier by pretending I wrote something that I did not.

Anyway, I am not going to argue further with you. Arguing with Indians is a job, not a hobby. And I am on chowk to have some fun, not do the job your screwed up education system failed to do. Have a good weekend.

Re: # 204: "Botswana has better roads than we do, I'd imagine. It's a question of political will, not money."

Botswana is ahead of India in almost every respect...higher literacy, higher per capita gdp, sanitation and income, higher HDI etc etc.

With few exceptions, India is behind almost all Muslim nations, oil or no oil, in terms of income, literacy, health, life expectancy etc etc.

http://hdr.undp.org/en/statistics/

Lack of adequate sanitation in India is a pressing challenge in both rural and urban India. Sanitation-related diseases take a heavy toll of lives, especially children's lives, and are a drain on productivity and incomes. Lack of adequate sanitation also forces households into the continued indignity of open defecation, which is an acute problem especially for women and young girls. Improving access to sanitation is therefore appropriately included in the Millennium Development Goals.

http://www.ddws.gov.in/popups/India%20Country%20Paper.pdf

Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

I see the neighborly bigots are back in force!!! No data! No facts! Just name calling or worse, attacking other people's faith. To all of you uncouth, un-groomed, barely literate and badly informed bigots I say:

First free Kashmir to save a bundle. Then feed your hungry masses and build your toilets. Pay attention to your poor citizens rotting in your unspeakable slums. And then you can aspire to greatness...even dream of becoming a superpower.

Remember: As long as your country is the largest and ugliest slum on the face of the earth, all your claims of greatness ring hollow.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Shankar,

Why do we need an aircraft carrier/roadway zero sum game? There's a fair amount of earmarked money for infrastructure that gets eaten by corruption. Defense budget has nothing to do with it.

Botswana has better roads than we do, I'd imagine. It's a question of political will, not money.

Tahmed #197,

I did read your post and that was my response. Let me elaborate -

1) The world hasn't changed dramatically in the last decade. Neither rule of law nor democracy nor incorporation of technology are recent change agents the way you make them out to be. I also fail to see how the US is leading the way in any of these matters. It has an oddly large jailed population with a disproportionate number of black males - not a shining example of a just society. US democracy has been notoriously slow on the uptake in terms of minority rights, with active segregation till the 60's.
Why would Pakistan want to emulate the US?

2) None of these things are useful by themselves unless there is a collective positive relation between a country and it's citizens. The citizens need to have a voice in what they want their country to be. Once that is established, Pakistan can chart it's own path. To an outsider, that is what Pakistan seems to be missing, and needs to develop.

Riaz ul Haq,

There was this scientist who put a roundworm in a glass of alcohol. The worm died. The scientist concluded that alcohol usage will cure roundworm infestation.

Then there was another scientist who clapped loudly next to a frog. The frog jumped. Then he cut off the frog's legs & clapped loudly. The frog didn't budge. He concluded that if you cut off a frog's leg,the frog goes deaf.

You can spin doctor stats all you want.

Damn where is arjun when you need him? He could bowl as many leg spinners as Haq's off spinners.

Their roads are much better than ours. Gotta give credit where its due.

plats,

Could'nt India just ditch that goddamned aircraft carrier & use that money to have a couple of expressways, at least as good as Pakistan?! :)

Re: # 194 Shankar

India's GDP is close to three trillion dollars (http://flagcounter.com/factbook/in). Spending $20 or $30 billion per year on defense is peanuts. But, for paranoid Pakis that is a huge number (GDP: 452.7 billion)

All numbers are in PPP terms

The Swat action
It was inevitable. Only this inevitability was artificially kept deferred, no lesser by the federal government too. Not even the ink had dried on it that the ANP's expedient accord with charlatan Sufi was evidently in tatters. The accord's real intent was demobilisation of Swati thug Fazlullah's murderous militia and restoration of the state's writ to the beleaguered valley. But none was anywhere in sight. Fazlullah's brigands had publicly vowed neither to disarm nor to demobilise. Visibly, they consolidated their position in Swat and began fanning out to Buner, Lower Swat and Shangla to entrench, and link up with local Taliban and enlist new recruits to hold on to these regions too. And it was their writ not the state's that ran all over the valley. Indeed, it was weeks ago that the prime minister should have called the army to quash Fazlullah's terrorist network, well before it had got embedded lethally as has it now in Swat and its adjoining territories. The army thus has an uphill task ahead of it, which will take all in it to carry out successfully; more so, as it too is coming with a heavy baggage on its back. When it had come first to Swat to subdue Fazlullah and his thugs, it had enthusiastic local public backing, though also great public expectations. But much of that public sentiment evaporated as the army's operation progressed, with an impression gaining ground among the residents that more innocent civilians were being killed or maimed in collateral damage than were Fazlullah's thugs. The army is thus moving in amid a different environment, charged more with public expectations than with public enthusiasm. But the army can change all that if it puts the lessons learnt in its first campaign to full use and launch into a powerful, focussed, precise and swift action right from the outset. The army indeed will turn the people power solidly on its side if in the very first few days it takes out with precise and accurate air strikes the thuggish brigand's command and control structure, disrupts their logistics systems, snaps their arms supplies and funding pipelines, and nabs or snuffs out their main commanders. That, of course, would demoralise the thugs hurtfully. But, more importantly, this will infuse a new spirit in the people, restoring their trust in the army very advantageously. They will be emboldened to stand up and be counted, now loath to do it for the terrorist gun's fear. Many will be forthcoming voluntarily to point out the thugs' hideouts. And even the greens the thugs have recruited with intimidation or temptation would turn away from them and possibly may even turn back on them. But the key words are punch, precision and swiftness of action, which sadly were lacking in the army's previous operation, drawing it widespread public doubts, misperceptions and even suspicions of being half-hearted in the campaign for harbouring a soft corner for the Swati gunmen. That necessarily calls for streamlining flawlessly its operational details to the extent that on a few minutes' notice it could hit an identified target. Indeed, if the people see the army so succeeding, they will not mind personal inconveniences for its campaign to go ahead with all the speed and full vigour. The army here has really a chance to demonstrate to our own people that it knows of no friend or obstacle when it comes to the accomplishment of a task assigned to it; and to its compulsive international detractors that it has all the capability to take on the thugs on their own turf. And for once at least, the ANP must become real and get out of its world of excuses and ruses. After the prime minister's allocation of Rs.1 billion for internally displaced persons, it can have no pretext not to take care of the Swatis seeking refuge outside. It must set up well-maintained and tightly-secured camps in safer places near their homes and post officials to guide them to those encampments. More, it must not falter as it did despicably last time in building upon the gains achieved in the operation by reviving shattered civil administration machinery quickly. If for whatever reason this opportunity to restore the state's writ in Swat is frittered away, the nation will rue it for long woefully.
Saved from: http://www.thefrontierpost.com/News.aspx?ncat=ed&nid=65&ad=09-05-200
Da ted: Saturday, May 09, 2009, Jamadi-ul-Awwal 13, 1430 A.H.
http://pukhtunkhwatimes.blogspot.com/...

http://thepathans.blogspot.com/

plats #191 please re-read what i wrote more carefully. i am referring to "adapting to the changed world", not to any identity issue. it is hard to have any discussion if someone is responding to what you didnt write, rather than what you wrote.

Shankar,

India's defense budget is nothing out of the ordinary. It's about 2.5-3% of the GDP - a number quite typical for maintaining defensive deterrence. Most of the hardware purchase is actually China-centric; explains why India is going after naval equipments/force multipliers. The India-China military equation is greatly different from the India-Pakistan one - nuclear deterrence has more value in the latter.

Having said that, would this money be better spent on roads or indoor plumbing or the shameful infrastructure? Of course. The caveat is, Japan/Taiwan/Korea/Western Europe had the luxury of being under the US nuclear umbrella. India does not.

hamid,
If thats what Pakistan wants, go ahead & try & solve it diplomatically.

OTOH, if Pakistan wont have anything to do with India, thats fine too. Both countries will be perfectly content if there is a Berlin wall between us...just as long as you guys get it into your thick skulls that you cant wrest Kashmir from India--by overt or covert war.

The only thing your military is good for is killing your own civilians. They have killed more Pakistani civilians in their glorious history than they have killed us horrible hindus!

Jeeze, you guys have been fighting this "war of a 1000 cuts"...as that Dawn columnist Kamran Whatever said, very succinctly, "who bled who?!"

Romair,

{{- taliban would be out also....contrary to popular belief, there is only a small group that supports taliban......and that too, because it feels they are fighting a bigger evil in afghainstan, in the form of usa.....

.....there actually, would be trade with india, without comprimising on kashmir, and without lowering its defense from an india, which has tons of armament pointed towards pakistan, at all times...}}

Yeah, but WHICH taliban?. Y'see the problem with the Pakistani public opinion is that groups like LeT are "good" taliban. I hope by now , even you don't insist that the "freedom fighters" are indigenous Indian Kashmiris.

If, by some miracle, Pakistan gets enough courage you tell the US to screw off, you wont be afford to piss India off. You'll need all the friends you can get, including ( & especially) India.

Re: # 192

shankar mian,

..... i hate to be disagreeable, but i think pakistan should not have any, repeat any, cooperation with india as long as it is occupying kashmir ......

..........why don't you try and drive across the ambassador bridge and get me some cuban cigars from windsor? ...... just try it! .... not only will they fine you a hundred dollars per cigar but they might even throw you in jail............ you get the point? .... there can be no compromise on principles ...... i think all pakis who watch bollywood movies should be blinded and thrown into the dungeons in lahore fort ...........

Bilal,

{{Pakistan need to increase co-operation with its neighboring countries including India. And Indians should also please come out of Pakistanphobia and stop having dreams of a regional military super-power, the poverty of India needs to be taken care of first.....}}

I partially agree. I find it absolutely arrogant & megalomanic of India of wanting to be a military superpower while so many Indians live below the poverty line.

India has a deterrent of nuclear weapons. All the billions spent on military toys India buys from other countries would be much better spent in bringing indoor plumbing all Indians. Besides those "toys" haven't prevented terrorist attacks, even in superpower countries. This sense of "security" in spending billions for fancy toys is a mirage.

OTOH, it does no good to talk about Pakistanophobia while you send terrorists to Bombay. Please, Pakistan is caught with its pants down.

Yes you are more than welcome to have a differing stand on Kashmir. Just as long as you defeat those "freedom fighters". You guys have a bigger Indophobia than vice-versa.
Our 2 peoples have same bigoted mentality. Pakistan really believes that it was primarily responsible for the defeat of the Soviet Union by guerrilla tactics. Too bad you don't have anymore stingers to give them.It hasn't worked, so far, in IOK for almost 2 decades.

So, if you want our trust, I suggest you earn it.

Tahmed #185,

One of the biggest crises in Pakistan, from the viewpoint of an outsider like me, has been one of identity. Borrowing an identity derived from the west will not help matters. The murderous and cynical version of Islam hasn't provided it; neither have the knee-jerk attempts to be anti-India. By contrast, Indians across the board have a much more pan-Indian identity than they did, say, 20 years ago. In spite of the ridiculous poverty, corruption and all other ills, much of young India very much wants to be a part of the nation-building process. I find that to be progress. India has developed a system of democracy that is its own, warts and all.

Trust me, I am not trying to one-up anybody - would be foolish to do so in the 3rd world. As an Indian, I genuinely think that a Pakistan more at peace with itself is good for my country. But Pakistan needs to develop an internal system that is more robust, inclusive and resilient.

The absolute worst thing you guys did was cede control to the army. That should never ever have happened.

Ranger88990,

You are ignorant. You are dumb.....You are Indian.

That says it all.

Now about facts, you are the one who should get them straight. A country with half of its population below poverty line has enough money to be a donor. Hahaha.....Seriously....you just cracked a really good joke! Lmaoooooo!

India received a billion pounds from the UK last year. The US has been giving aid to India for the past 50 years. Well of course not as much as the amount it has been giving to Pakistan. But before 9/11, India were the ones to receive more. Seriously dude you said that India has not been receiving a dollar in the form of aid is completely wrong.

Enough with all the personal attacks from both sides.

Second I respect the fact that India is a nation of hardworking people, and because of that it has developed considerably.

You have to look at reality as well. Do you actually believe the media?? Everyone knows who funds these terrorists. US, Israel, and India. Thats what the Indian embassies are doing on the border. Just when Pakistan was doing well under Musharraf the lawyers movement takes place. No one wants Pakistan to be stabilised. Thats exactly why Musharraf was kicked out. (those of you who are anti-mush I don't want to hear your crap bec you reallllly don't know the difference between democracy and dictatorship)

dono desh ke liye mein batahoon. sala kaun khatarnakh hain.

Dekho, Taliboon, mullah, BJP waghera ekdam fit hain. Seedha saadha public. Jo dekha woh milla. Sala baaki sab jo hain, eleete pakistan ka, kangress hindustan ka, ya komnist atif-jaisa public yeh khatarnakh cheez hain ekdam do number ka public. yeh sab kuch bolta aur kuch aur karela. in mein sala, yahaan ka, chucha buttees khyberwa, raizwah, hasho bundh sab inhee ka santaan hain

Members of the Sri Ram Sena (the army of Lord Ram) raided a bar in the southern city of Bangalore and beat up some of the women drinking inside, accusing them of loose morality.
The gang then threatened attacks against anybody who celebrated Valentine's Day, which they called un-Indian, prompting accusations they were a "Hindu Taliban".
Gangadhar Kulkarni, an activist in Sri Ram Sena, which is a radical wing of the Hindu nationalist movement, said: "If people celebrate the day despite our warning, then we will definitely attack them."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/india/4578457/Indian s-send-pink-underwear-to-Hindu-Taliban-in-revenge-for-bar-attack.html
http://pukhtunkhwatimes.blogspot.com/...

http://thepathans.blogspot.com/

Re: # 183 HASHO...'' How many Taliban are in India?''
The Catholic Church OF India has warned that electoral victory for the hardline Bharatiya Janata Party next month could result in a Hindu-style “Talibanisation� of India and lead to the suppression of human rights for all religious minorities there. “They (BJP) want to demolish secularism - they’re very clear there has to be a Hindu nation and only Hinduism is acceptable,� Father
Joseph, a spokesman for the Catholic Bishops Conference of India, which represents 168 diocese, told The Australian.
Minorities fearing Hindu Taliban in India
The young Varun Gandhi was jailed for a fortnight after allegedly telling supporters he would cut off the hands of any Muslims who threatened Hindus.
In August and September last year, the Christian community was targeted in riots across the state of Orissa, triggered by the murder of a local hardline Hindu priest who preached radical Hindu exclusiveness among his followers.
http://pukhtunkhwatimes.blogspot.com/...

http://thepathans.blogspot.com/

Taliban hosted Al Qaeda who are global terrorists implicated in plots around the world. QED.
---
QED doesn't help make stupid comments sharp.

implicated plots around the world and actually executing plots all over the world are two different things. You can implicate any one for any thing. Like I can easily implicate you for being as dumb as a kukar.

plats #180 welcome back.

Here is what I meant - The big issue facing Pakistan is adapting to the changed world. The taliban phenomenon is merely an extreme symptom stemming from this underlying issue. And the change agent - the part of the world where concepts (like the rule of law) as well as technologies and industries (like the movie industry) - are the west, with the US playing the lead role.
India is merely adapting to this change, like virtually every other Asian, African, Latino and East European nation.

If Pakistan truly wants to emerge as a leader among nations, it must learn from the countries that have led the world. From the horse's mouth, as I said.

Re: # 183 Hasho

"...And how are they a problem for the whole world?..."

Taliban hosted Al Qaeda who are global terrorists implicated in plots around the world. QED.

Puke writes:
they are a problem for the whole world, but foremost for the neighborhood.
---
And how are they a problem for the whole world?
Are they problem for the South Americans, Africans, Chinese, Vietnamese, Malaysians and Indonesians, or even the middle east. Do you even know how many countries are in the world?
They are a problem for Afghanistan, Pakistan and the US( mainly because US is in Afghanistan occupying that country). How many Taliban are in India?

Re: # 181 Khyber

"..thats what i meant in one my posts earlier to indians that they should worry about indian problems not Pak issues..."

Yes, indeed. However, the Taliban are not just a Pakistani problem - they are a problem for the whole world, but foremost for the neighborhood. Until recently, they were not a problem for Pakistan, but mostly for Afghanistan, India, and NATO.

178Pew_Research..We did n't start the fire''...thats what i meant in one my posts earlier to indians that they should worry about indian problems not Pak issues....ur buddies are trying to divert our attention from pak problems by discussing crap.
http://pukhtunkhwatimes.blogspot.com/

Tahmed #176,

What exactly is a second-hand idea?

Also, are you actually claiming that "primitive"ness is something that Indians are uniquely capable of? As opposed to the much more evolved Americans, who actively wanted segregation till 40 years ago and cannot handle bilingual education even now? Are you kidding? And that's the horse's mouth from which wisdom shall come forth?

The Indian legal/political system accomodated disenfranchised groups much earlier, and in a much less bloody manner than the US did. As a result, the system has a much larger fraction of influential people from these groups than the US does. What's missing in India is the "order" to enforce the "law" - that's not primitive'ness; that's lack of resources coupled with massive corruption.

:)
http://pukhtunkhwatimes.blogspot.com/

Calling to Attention!

Riaz-ul-Haq
Tahmed Butt-ees

Don't you guys think that you should be focusing on the more important issue of a million internal refugees being created as we write this in Swat rather than worrying about toilets in India?

Indians should not be so optimistic. India has to go long way to be a superior nation. unless india's 70% people become rich and become no.1 purchasing power country and manufacturing country, india will remain a country unnoticed.India has to long way to go to prevent hunger for all of her people and has long way to go educate all her children to be more educated and productive in all disciplines including atheletics. IT is not the only thing can bring prosperity, advance science & engineering, space research and design and construction of large military and commercial ships and planes for domestic use and for export are the things of today, in which India is still way behind.
http://pukhtunkhwatimes.blogspot.com/

bilal #170 the most important thing you can get from another part of the world is ideas. at best india can contribute second hand ideas, much tainted by primitive indian culture and the multifold complexes and spites that are apparent on chowk.

so - if you want to understand the rule of law, e.g., look at the US experience. straight from the horse's mouth, so to speak.

and "neighboring" means very little in today's world. you can be "neighborly" with countries half-way around the world.

#174 that's better. and dont pretend to be happily laughing when there is smoke coming out of your lungi

Re: # 173 Chacha butt-ees

The classic Chacha tactic - hem and haw when cornered. Throw a few words here and there. Dodge and parry! Ha! Ha!Ha!Ha!Ha!

Re: # 167 Dost

I thought that most previous Indian governments (especially from Indira on down) generally were very coy about requesting aid.

sri ram pepe #171 dont try to start a conversation with me, you freak. go chat with your own kind - sri bubba or some other amreekan wannabe from bombay.

Re: # 168

Did you even read the post? Your response indicates that you did not!

well in my view, Pakistanis should not compare the country with India, the main reason is that the size and histories of both the countries. Pakistan is quite smaller than Indian and historically, India has been known as an exotic place in the world. Pakistan needs to align itself away from USA and Middle Eastern countries. Pakistan need to increase co-operation with its neighboring countries including India. And Indians should also please come out of Pakistanphobia and stop having dreams of a regional military super-power, the poverty of India needs to be taken care of first.....

Re: # 149 Riaz

"...There is widespread hunger and malnutrition in all parts of India. .."

Allah hu Akbar!

So, why do you care? And more importantly, WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO ABOUT IT?"

#165 pepe: dont take meaningless extracts from my posts and add your own indian fecal crap on it, you freak.

Re: # 162

The article I posted is from the UPA time, but it was the NDA govt. which had declared that India won't accept any more aid.

Re: # 160...Comrade Masadi can't decide he is socialist or pro taliban...lol
http://pukhtunkhwatimes.blogspot.com/

Re: # 87 Tahmed32

"...So - by all means we should get this equipment. ..."

So, buy it then. Instead of whining about aid if you can fight the Taliban yourself!

Re: # 77 Tahmed32

"...and "western" culture of which bollywood is an example..."

If that is "aid", then India must be a net exporter since Bollywood is popular in large parts of the world.

Re: # 73 Riaz

Hey, dude! What's the obsession with toilets? Is the implication that everyone in the Land of the Pure has indoor plumbing?

Allah Hafiz

Re: # 75 Dost

What are you talking about? The NDA went out of power 5 years ago, and the newstory is from last month. What gives? Why implicate NDA when the UPA is in power? Besides, the Financial Express article indicates that the $81M aid package decision was a US one.

Re: # 156

Masadi Mian:

"..India cannot alleviate poverty through creating prosperity for the multinationals and the pitting 1% of its "tech" and other technological idiot population. It can alleviate poverty through redistribution, state incorporation of industry and getting rid of the predatory multinationals and outsourcers. On the other hand once it does that it will no longer be presented as a 'miracle' by the West that seeks to keep the world enslaved presenting the BS examples of China and India, and you'll see how fast they convert your miracle into a 'rogue' that borders the 'axis of evil'..."

Did you wake up from your nightmare and wrote the above?

#158 mr. masadi: you havent wished me "God damn tahmed" today. We cant have this laxness on chowk!!

lol........
http://pukhtunkhwatimes.blogspot.com/

"Get a goddamned education"

++++++

masadi, I don't need education from an old school socialist. That really would a damned by god education.

How is India going to generate the wealth to redistribute if it does not grow its economy?

We had a command-economy and socialist policies for 40 years after Independance. It pitted the poor of India even further in poverty.

#150 was addressed by Pablo to Alumni WW, I answered because that BS needed answering- pardon my intrusion WW.

TNITC masadi

#150 writes "Riaz, how is India going to alleviate poverty if it does not create prosperity to invest in healthcare, education and infrastructure?"

India cannot alleviate poverty through creating prosperity for the multinationals and the pitting 1% of its "tech" and other technological idiot population. It can alleviate poverty through redistribution, state incorporation of industry and getting rid of the predatory multinationals and outsourcers. On the other hand once it does that it will no longer be presented as a 'miracle' by the West that seeks to keep the world enslaved presenting the BS examples of China and India, and you'll see how fast they convert your miracle into a 'rogue' that borders the 'axis of evil'

Get a goddamned education,

TNITC masadi

Re: # 91 Posted by dost_mittar on May 8, 2009 6:28:27 am

DM sahib,

[..this is why the new aid package is supposed to come with certain conditions.]

what conditions?! did you not know that most pakis work with reverse psychology. no conditions work with these people. whether they are the ruling elite or ordinary people. They come asking for money and then promote ill will amongst their own people of those who feed them. paki punjoos have excelled this attitude to a science.

bribing pakis who are in the west to get american supervised jobs and work in pakistan is the only solution for getting the pakis out of the western land and in to a better paki society. with one stipulation, of course, the returning pakis will be quarantined to remain in puristan for a decade of so. Otherwise these returning pakis would get out once again to western shores, and the whole talk of negative western values will start again.