Chaos – Thy Name is Pakistan

An inspiring article indeed that gives a balanced view of the issues on the one hand and on the other it increases the feeling that how ill-informed, unaware, and un-focussed we are as a nation. While in this thick soap, we still lack crisp thinking and dispassionate and critical analysis of the situation and taking a clear-n-bold stance as we did in case of restoration of judiciary. Our opinion leaders are equally guilty of this charge.

The enormous desire of masses to see Pakistan as a true Islamic state throws mouth-watering opporunity to those who, in the name of "pure Islam" were first able to successfully subjugate people in their own land and now busy exporting their brand in other countries through their nasty ways. And being naive, as we are, we continue to see them as our saviors who will, one day, deliver us freedom and peaceful Islamic state. Not a chance!

If you dig little deep into the heart of the matter you start seeing their tentacles spread all around us.

If we were united in rejecting these "fascism importers", who create split in our ranks, we would have formed a strong defense against other enemies.

United we stand!

Re: # 151 teshah: "IDPS, who are highly indoctrinated and motivated, I am afraid, may ultimately prove to be more dangerous politically than the Taliban. It is therefore imperative that they should be kept away from the big cities, espesially Islamabad, in camps."

teshah - I guess you might have better knowledge of the ground realities and reasons for your views, but I have different views which are very simple and clear:
- There is something seriously wrong that various sections/communities of the Pak society in that region such as the IDP, Pathans, Talibans, Punjabis etc. are always at loggerheads. There are lot of interacts indicating lot of mistrust between communities for various reasons - misused/abandoned etc. It is high time that the community level suspicions, grieviences are resolved permanenetly, without attributing to external reasons America, Russia, India etc.
- "IDP are highly indoctrinated and motivated and worse than Talibans" It beats me who is against whom and what benefit anyone is trying to get by controlling that region that is mountaneous and barren.
- "should be kept away from the big cities". For an effective integration within a country free movement of people needs to be allowed.

#134 Nichiro, #135 Muqaddam: Dont be so pessimistic.

Historically the Pakis/muslims although had grudge against the British for the demise of mughals, but were lesser active during the freedom struggle. They did not really go through the grind of struggle for freedom, so they do not value it as much as the Indians/hindus did. The actual struggle and sacrifices was done by the indians/Hindus while the Pak/Muslims got it gratis. The majority of muslims were busy fighting the Congress rather than the Brits and more interested in post-independece scenarios of hindu domination and TNT theory. The Indians / hindus had enough reasons for gaurding their freedom by evolving democratic institutions, while there were no such compelling reasons for the Pak/muslims.

But that is all past. Even now the things can be improved in Pak and the onus is on the common people to set the agenda what they want, can accept, cannot accept etc. rather than remain passive. Have strong faith in democracy and given sufficient opportunity and time period it has enough self-correcting mechanisms to provide a good governance and betterment of the common people. The recent Indian polls have demonstrated that.

Re: # 150

SPY

As pointed out by aft at #131 the IDPS, who are highly indoctrinated and motivated, I am afraid, may ultimately prove to be more dangerous politically than the Taliban. It is therefore imperative that they should be kept away from the big cities, espesially Islamabad, in camps.

Re: # 131 afat: I have not come across such nice, clear, concise, unbiased observations as you have made of the historical events and the future possibility, both rolled in one interact, about the north-western part of the sub-continent.

Afat - "By the way I am baffled, a nation such as punjabis which have gone though so much invasions in history ...still has no vision for future.......and fells again and again in traps set by others...
it baffles me...and they have not wisen up , just look at the way they are falling for another invasion from the North West in form of Talibans.
By the way some one told me, the core of these Talibans consist of Chechins, Uzbeks,...and people from central asia....... locals are just cannon fodders....is it true..
So are we witnessing another ...... historical invasion.into the sub-continent .... only this time the route is not to Panipat , but Karachi or Gawadar...."

I would differ about the statement "trap laid by others". While this could have been true in olden days, but not in today's context, it needs to be stated as the "falls in own trap".

It is well known that Pakistan had raised the Talibans to gain the "strategic depth" and ultimately use them against India. But they had never factored in the American involvement in A'tan, the Talibans going out of control, the world getting the so senstive to the use of terrorism as a state policy by Pakistan (eg mumbai reaction), forcing it to do a U-turn on its policies and control the Talibans/Jihadis within its own territory. It is being forced to consume the same poison that it created for use against India.

@md.gill

A good and timely topic but not a good article as one would have expected from you.

You call Bharat, a Hindu India. How can you say that? Would not you then call Pakistan 'Muslim India' and Bangladesh, as 'Bangali India' (which they certainly are)? But Bharat by no stretch of imagination be called 'Hindu India' as it is a truly secular state and that is its secret of stability with democracy.

It is pity that some of our intellectuals also think that Pakistan's very existence depends on religious hatred against Hindus. But it is this very hatred which has now given rise to Talibans who are bent upon destroying Pakistan and massacring its people. "Afala tafaqqaroon" (Why don't you think?).

test

I found the following comment on the NYT blog and it stinks of Kulharee, even the nick signed at the end:

-----

Pakistan is a nation founded on the basis of a conspiracy theory. Is it any surprise that day in, day out, it continues to produce more of them? How else would it justify itself? Whatever Pakistan was, came to an end in 1971, when the majority seceded in the form of Bangladesh. Now the Punjabi Army and Punjabi landowners just hang on for dear life.
— Axeman

----------------------------------------------

THE NYT blog FLAK control. Tries to counter the facts (not conspiracies) that are well understood by Pakistanis regarding US support of the Taliban and the creation of the mess and humanitarian disaster in pakistan

http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/05/12/a-grand-conspiracy-theor y-from-pakistan/?ref=world

This is to inform you that our friend Tahir has been illegally detained by Chowk staff and might be subject to water boarding because of the following post:

From: chowkstaff
To: tahir
Date: May 13, 2009 Wed 07:10 pm

Your following post was filtered for objectionable content. For the next 24 hours all your posts will be reviewed before they appear on Chowk. Failure to follow Interact Guidelines may result in your account being suspended.

Padesh,
Are you the same \'Miss Mrikan Bhai\' who is now acting as Padesh? Business sure is bad these days.....

and interestingly there's a website

www.islamabadobserver.com

showing beheading of Pakistani Regular Soldiers!

Re: # 142 cwrightmills2
((that was 170,000,000 not billion ))

Don't worry, ver soon it will be.

that was 170,000,000 not billion

As u can see the national agenda of Pakistan has once again been aligned with US agenda of fighting its wars without end, and the fate and livelihood, food and health of the 170+ million people of Pakistan, once again tied to fighting America's wars where an army of 700,000 is fighting a 4000 strong band of thugs, keeping 170,000,000,000 impoverished as a result...and then they want proof of how the Taliban are supported by the USA....

CWM2

nkg writes "whether Jinnah wanted or not, Pakistan is a lovely concept to Indians (to get rid of large number of muslas)...\"

That is why that other right wing lunatic majumdar (with apologies) adds pbuh whenever he mentions "Jinnah". Their hatred for Muslims knows no bounds and MAJ weakened the Muslims by opportunistically using Islam for purposes of division both numerically in India as well as through backlash factor and then condemned through such division our rule by the Pakistan Army and being a whore of the imperialists for the major part of our history.

CWM2

#124 Hasho, while I agree with much of your post your assertion about division into nationalities as a cure for minority grievances, I completely disagree with. Division is no cure for grievance especially when that division has been used to pit groups against each other for for ruling through division as the colonialists of old perfected. What happened in India post partititon cannot be taken as proof of what would have happened were no partition to take place, that is all circumscribed by the events of the partition. What would have become, might have become or happened is all speculation. This nationality and nationalism business is quite similar to racism as phenomenon and its purpose is not to fix grievances but to create them in order for the few to dominate the rest by binding a group to a system/structure and alienating another.

You need to get over your belief that Manto will amount to something. The guy is a charlatan and a spineless one at that. Have a nice day and take it easy,

CWM2

philo,

No, I am not sure what ummah’s problem is with Ahmadis! BTW, I am glad you have decided to become the mouthpiece of the entire Muslim community!

A few issues ummah has with Ahamdis are as follows (depending upon who you talk to):

Ahmadis are …

1. British agents
2. Jewish/Zionist agents
3. An international drug cartel
4. Ring of sex addicts
5. Responsible for Pak-India partition riots
6. Responsible for Bangladesh partition
7. Have a khalifaa, and are therefore not Muslims …
8. Twist meaning of Quran, ahadith
9. Have their own prophet …
10. Destabilizing and conspiring against Pakistan
11. Any more???

But when taken to the task to validate their claims, ummah is unable to get beyond rhetoric. Although they are quick to declare Ahmadis non-Muslims in certain terms!

When you are done reciting poetry, feel free to tell us what is bothering you.

Re: # 136 sattar

(((you may want to share the content of this esteemed book with Urstruly, tahmed, philo, Salim et all)))

Tahir, Plz do share the content of this esteemed book with me.

((((all of whom have issues with Ahmadis, but beyond vague accusations, are unable to explain what or why.)))

sattar mian, what or whay???You still don't know what problem we(muslims) have with Ahmadis?

Arz kiya hai;

Be niaazi had se guzri banda perwar kab talak

Hum kahain gai haalay dil aap farmaayen gai, Kiya?


Yaani, hum ab tak jhuk hee maartay rahay.Aakheer ho gaye jay.

tahir (#64),

Your passing reference to “knowledgeable others� who share your anti-Ahmadi views is not an argument.

Note that Jesus too was opposed by ullema of his time, that Abu Jehal too was a scholar of his time, that Maudoodi too is considered knowledgeable by the ummah.

Re #75: You may have said enough about Ahmadis, and so have others. I have only heard innuendos and hyperbole so far. Again, tossing around names of books is not an argument.

Lastly, you may want to share the content of this esteemed book with Urstruly, tahmed, philo, Salim et all … all of whom have issues with Ahmadis, but beyond vague accusations, are unable to explain what or why.

Re: # 134
Who will bell the cat? Kiyani has already bared his fangs by asking the Prime Minister and the President to set their house in order. Nobody asked him to shut up.

I am deeply saddened by the state of affairs in Pakistan.
In absence of strong political governance and political stability through democracy, the Army wrested the initiative from public and politicians (who are/were mostly opportunistis) and created monster of a problem called Kashmir. When this started failing, they created Talibaan and now , both Pakistan and Afghanistan are paying a heavy price for the Army's follies.

Pakistan will prosper if Army , as in India is relegated to play only tertiary role in just defending its territories instead of poking they noses in daily life.

It is upto the public now not to let Pakistan become a Pariah state.

Nichio

Detroit

Re: # 125

I'd request this 'foreign power' to stop coming after our crown jewels and instead settle for permanently holding on to our family jewels (just one item out of the trio will do) with a loving grip!

of course things are not as simple as that....Pakistan instead of being a pawn in the global chess board has become the chess board itself.

its my understanding TNT was created after 1936's debacle .

support from Muslim Majority areas was needed to substantiate the claim of the only and sole representative of Muslim voice by the ML...hence TNT

jinnah -sikander pact provided opportunity to the ML to make inroads and they did .


By the way I am baffled , a nation such as punjabis which have gone though so much invasions in history ...still has no vision for future.......and fells again and again in traps set by others...


though of the topic, but loosing One's Land, abandoning one's language leaving one's culture that too , which has roots as deep as history itself ..... is surly not a wise thing to do .....


it baffles me...and they have not wisen up , just look at the way they are falling for another invasion from the North West in form of Talibans.


by the way some one told me, the core of these Talibans consist of Chechins, Uzbeks,...and people from central asia....... locals are just cannon fodders....is it true..

so are we witnessing another ...... historical invasion.into the sub-continent .... only this time the route is not to Panipat , but Karachi or Gawadar....

Re: # 124 Hasho: "Are all in minority in India happy now?"

This is another statement where most Indians have different view.

But overall agree with your comments.

Re: # 124 Hasho: "that united India would have been a political and economic haven for all Indians. Well, it is not for the people who still live there, so how could it be a haven for the people who left it?"

While there is always room for improvement, the first part (it is not for the people who still live there) is not true. However the second part (so how could it be a haven for the people who left it?) is true.

The Pakistani Punjabi Army will now be looking for the latest avatar of Tikka Khan for the next butchering of occupied Baluchistan

Re: # 100
sadna...
whether Jinnah wanted or not, Pakistan is a lovely concept to Indians (to get rid of large number of muslas)...\
All the BS started in late 19th century and early 20th century...the first generation of Indian intellectuals ( mostly Bengalis) co-operated with Brits to reform education, society, industry etc....If you read Bankim Chandra Chattyopadhyay, you can feel the sentiment within Indians...Muslas and specialy muslaism/islam was never welcomed into Indian society and creation of Pakistan was almost inevitable....

Congres should have managed partition better way....

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Re: # 123 Mr. Hasho good thinking.
Unfortunately some foreign power is planning to divide pakistan second time. The reason is this foreign power wants get hands on our crown jewels ie simple way to say they want to take away nuclear assets. They are shy to take snatch openly as it will be against UNO laws. They are making problems in B.Stan and there is lots of help to this biggest supper power from our other "democratic" friend you know ther friend, hahaha.... Any way problems of E.Pakistan also started in schools. Lots of Hindus were in teaching teacher positions in schools. They started poison of Bhasha Pride and anti urdu feelings and viruses spread fast based on hatred of others. THis time to nip buds from schools in B.Stan now or will need axex letter to cut grown poisonous fruits. Now two foreign power are interested in enormous gas wealth and copper and gold there.One power will like also big G in Pocket so they can get out of dependence on Karachi for sending stuff for WOT in A.Stan and possible future action against Iran if they make nuclear things. They want base in vital area and B.Stan fits the bill.
Worth reading article.
PPP admits national anthem abandoned in Balochistan schools




Wednesday, May 13, 2009
Governor expresses concern, orders probe

By Mumtaz Alvi

ISLAMABAD: The Pakistan People’s Party (PPP) conceded on Tuesday that even in several government schools of the provincial capital of Balochistan, national anthem has been abandoned and the national flag is no more hoisted.

Balochistan Governor Nawab Zulfiqar Ali Magsi during a media chat on Monday also expressed concern over the unfortunate practice and called for a thorough investigation into it.Nawabzada Mir Lashkari Raisani, who is PPP Balochistan Chapter’s President, when approached for comments, confirmed that schools in many areas no more echoed with the national anthem.

“Yes, it is a bitter reality that some elements are promoting this idea of abandoning the national anthem and avoid hoisting Pakistani flag on the school buildings and other government buildings,� the Baloch leader, who recently held back his resignation as a member of the Senate, maintained.

The National Party’s newly-elected legislator, Hasil Bezinjo, made a stunning revelation during the recently-prorogued session of Senate that the schools in his province had abandoned the national anthem because of the “seething injustices committed to the people of the province�.

A source close to Chief Minister Nawab Aslam Raisani told this correspondent from Quetta that the government was fully aware of the trend and he blamed a handful of separatist elements. However, he was quick to add that before this unfortunate practice took an ugly turn, those sitting in Islamabad, would have to take concrete measures to rectify the situation in Pakistanís largest but the poorest province.

The chief minister was not available for comments, as he was to board a plane for Islamabad, where he was expected to take up the latest situation in the province with the federal government.

Bismillah Khan Kakar, who is PPPís Secretary General, Balochistan, when contacted, said that certain elements were now openly campaigning for Balochistan’s separation from Pakistan in the provincial

capital.

“When we move around, we can see graffiti on walls of buildings even very close to the Governor House and the Chief Minister House in the heart of Quetta. The writings reflect the rebellious thinking of certain people,� he pointed out.

He referred to slogan like ‘long live Free Balochistan’ written on scores of government offices and schools. Kakar, who belongs to District Qila Saifullah’s Habibzai locality, was of the view that it was time to act and act fast to address grievances of the people of Balochistan.


Good day.

Gill sahib, you cut your nose to spite your face.

“After 60 years of mis-rule, Pakistan is in the grips of a civil war which has been launched by Taliban.�

Can you please tell me where is this civil war going on? Some three to four thousand or perhaps less people are fighting the state in a small area which barely has 2 million population and you call that a civil war? I guess you have no idea what civil wars look like. Try Indonesia of 1965 or the US of 1864. I hope things don’t get to that stage in Pakistan, but if they do, that still does not mean Pakistan will disappear in to the Arabian Sea.

I am not sure if you also understand the reasons for the creation of Pakistan. Admittedly, the front –religion- was only for the people in the central India. No one was buying Islam in any other part of the current Pakistan. I hope you know that even the most conservative NWFP barely voted for Pakistan.

When people did not buy religion in the most trying political conditions before the partition, when they were merely slaves of the British, why would they buy it now?

Religion is not a problem or an issue in Pakistan. It is a cover for the ruling elite. They promoted the religion as a political plank to continue to occupy the political landscape but now they are getting hammered by their own people in some part of NWFP. I think that’s good. The irony is that the Army is killing the people it supported for over 50 years. Army kay namak halals are now army’s namak harams.

Let me try and get this out of your head that united India would have been a political and economic haven for all Indians. Well, it is not for the people who still live there, so how could it be a haven for the people who left it?

The fact is that there are always going to be some in minority who would be grumpy about the majority and feel that they are being oppressed by the majority. Just look at where you live. Plenty in the black minority are full of complaints. This is in the economically most advanced nation with the highest standard of living in the world. Do you really think that an utterly and dismally poor India would have made the minority a happy camper? Are all in minority in India happy now?

On the flip side, there are always going to be some in majority that would be full of complaints about the minority. Again look around in the area you live in.

There was inevitability in India’s partition. If not 1947, it would have happened in 1967, 1977 or even in 1997 and it would have happened after so much acrimony and bloodshed that you probably would have learnt the true meaning of civil war. In fact, the civil war in India would have gone on in the annals of history as the bloodiest civil war ever.

I hope you understand what I am saying. Please ask if you need some more explanation. India was going to be divided or many states would have left India. Pakistan might appear to be a mistake to you now, but there was never any chance of an undivided India forever.

Anil writes "Is this how you claim to have proof positive evidence of God also? "


Anil stay out of areas you have no knowledge about and that would be all areas other than vegetable vending, a profession fit for HBS graduates.

In our period symbolic existence that determines what occurs on the ground is controlled by the U.S. elite that dominate information, knowledge and global institutions. They have built up these 4000 thugs otherwise they would amount to nothing. They were built up due to the structural requirements of the US political economy and its global war on terrorism, a war that cannot end otherwise a new one would have to be invented in order for the 'permanent war economy' to operate. Can you imagine if this economy tried to convert to a peace time one during a recession what would occur? Similarly God is necessitated by the structural requirements of the unverse. The initial conditions, the fine tuned constants that resulted in our universe and life evolving necessite God just as the structural requirements of the US PE necessitate war and building up enemies out of straw men and baboons....

This is to announce to you that cwrightmills has been banned together with masadi

Re: # 120 MASADI boss you been given the ban once more.

OH, well, you like the member of the light brigade......you need to learn the arjun trick though.

What did you do this time....

Chowkstaff, this man shouldn't be banned. There are others who commit far more serious breaches of your guidelines yet they continue. Consider Masadi, as your neighbourhood eccentric unkil....

Following in the tradition of majumdar sahib, I am posting on behalf of masadi sahib his filtered interacts that chowkstaff filtered for their content moreso than any violation of policy:

Regards,
-------------

Filtered Posts
Chaos – Thy Name is Pakistan
Posted by masadi May 12, 2009 04:26 am
major writes "A secular Congress is bad for muslims, but a Muslim League party, which expressly says it's for muslims, will good for other minorities..."

Major (moron) even though your are a third rate mind with the stench of a bigot, your point is valid and exposes the Jinnah hypocrisy who wanted to opportunistically use Islam and Muslims for his political agenda much like the U.S. opportunistically uses gender talk for its many invasions...

TNITC masadi
Chaos – Thy Name is Pakistan
Posted by masadi May 12, 2009 03:52 am
Manto writes "I have a Pakistani passport which will be the only passport I will always have."

You will be stripped of the Pakistani passport come the revolution. We have no need of your types of man worshipping traitors and sellouts that talk about 'logical extensions' of the American war on terrorism. The only 'logic' in the American equation is to kill all 'colored' people with impunity for the sake of profits while legitimizing it all with the Sohail like "humanism" talk. You are one of their small farts. Regarding proof, I have debated you on the Jinnah issue and the facts rather than your goddamed man worshiping ideology, bear me out. I mopped the Chowk floors with your grease laden hair....

TNITC masadi
Remembering the Past - 12th May 2007
Posted by masadi May 11, 2009 12:08 pm
tahmed you snake, don't you dare address me except as SIR, will your gaze lowered and your demeanor reflecting your spineless nature....now get away from me you third rate peon of the satan....

TNITC masadi
Remembering the Past - 12th May 2007
Posted by masadi May 11, 2009 12:03 pm
tahmed you miserable sellout. Redemption to you means doing the bidding of the US and kissing the white man's butt. You lack basic morals that qualify people for membership in the human species, just as your masters. You were against MQM not because of their carnage or low morality but because they were siding with Musharraf when the US thugs had turned away from him, while before both you and the MQM were on the dictator's side- You give new meaning to 'spineless sellout'. You would be willing to forgive Hitler were he kiss FDR's butt, you miserable excuse for a human being.

TNITC masadi
Chaos – Thy Name is Pakistan
Posted by masadi May 11, 2009 11:53 am
What did the chowk members do to deserve a double dose of the shirnk and Gill at the same time. These mass producers of moronic "articles"- you call this a god damned article? man this is low, Chowk staff take some god damned action. You ban me and censor my pieces, block Tahir from writing and then you publish this two day old pee? Take some concrete action and that doesn't mean banning me and throwing the key away

Re: # 116
Hayley Mills,

By now you know who I love and who gets the treatment I promise in my profile photo.

http://www.chowk.com/interactors/30139

Islam challenged the religions of the day for the corruption they were introducing into the workings of social systems (deen)....as did Jesus btw....the reformer prophets of old were all against organized religion and religion based on their ideas (and distortions of them) got organized after their demise leading to mullahism of one sort or the other...

TNITC masadi

thought the same thing, thinking about...(correction)

Tahir sahib that was an original but some fine mind in the past might have thought the same thinking about a charlatan that he/she knew.

On the other hand, I agree with mr. 786, Islam challenged the religions of the day for the corruption they were introducing into the workings of social systems (deen), organized religion is an evil that is not sanctified by Allah. He does not sanctify organizing around formulas "each group rejoicing in what it has" because that inevitably leads to mullahism, rather the competition and organization should be around doing what is socially 'good'. That said 786's rebuttal makes no sense and he needs to rephrase it as you asked him to.

TNITC masadi

Re: # 112
Flour Mills,

"the only movement this joker Manto has seen is a bowel movement."

That's funny indeed (from '1001 Insults For All Occasions' I suppose?).

Re: # 113

Please re-phrase, I don't understand what you wrote.

Re: # 111

Dear Tahir Sahib

Rest assured I have read both para's, simply bad mouthing Mullas does not mean diversity, it simply shows lack of trust with the common person as represented the poor mulla.

majumdar writes "Our friend Mantolives is as you have rightly suspected a Mirzaee. But to the best of my knowledge he holds no foriegn passport he is based in Isloo and is a part of the Lawyers movement."

Majumdar are you kidding us? the only movement this joker Manto has seen is a bowel movement.

p.s regretfully masadi has been banned by chowk staff

Re: # 109
Sutt-Ath-Chay sahib,

I do appreciate the diversity (God does too and that's why we're not all dead) but I do look at things differently. Read both my paragraphs and you'll understand what I stand for.

Regards.

#106:
"Jinnah was in favor of grouping India into muslim-majority (Pakistan) and hindu-majority provinces (Hindustan), with each group having its own constitution"

OK, this is partition so far as I am concerned. Thanks for the explanation.

Re: # 105

Tahir Sahib

Person with such strong beliefs such as yourself cannot appreciate the diversity of life as created, may be I am guilty which of course will be decided by The ONE but you dear sir are challenging the almighty by your human selfish desire to have everything painted with one color. If there is a God and we do have a day of judgement then I am sure the creator will do justice.

Re: # 106 Ellora

I was assuming a certain familiarity with the options for independence on the readers' part. Jinnah was in favor of grouping India into muslim-majority (Pakistan) and hindu-majority provinces (Hindustan), with each group having its own constitution, and the center having only limited powers (defense, communications, currency, foreign affairs, etc.) in a united India. He wanted all of undivided Punjab and Bengal in the muslim-province groups (Pakistan), and not partition of these provinces. If the idea of a united India under this framework was unacceptable to Congress, then Jinnah would have supported complete independence of these groups (assuming that the whole of Punjab and Bengal went to Pakistan).

Congress did not like this framework, and asked for Independence along with Partition of Punjab and Bengal. This is not what Jinnah wanted.

Through all these negotiations, he kept the definition of 'Pakistan' vague in order to leave the door open for a settlement that would leave India undivided.

tahir thanks for the advice!

I pray for you too ;-)

#101:
P_R, you seem to be saying MAJ was not in favour of partitioning the subcontinent but that he would have accepted unpartitioned Punjab and Bengal.

I am curious what the word 'accept' here means. On the face of it, it would seem the question of accepting or not only arises in the context of a partitioning of the subcontinent.

Perhaps I am not reading this right.

Re: # 102
rf786,

Your nick tells me you're a 786-worshipper, right?

"Religion has no business in the formation or functioning of Government, totally agreed."

Do repeat the same non-sense before God on Judgement Day and in the presence of the Prophet who achieved what he acheived after being guided aright through religion.

Now I don't mean that we ought to hand over our joystick to the misguided mullahs; their is no place in Islam for mullah anarchy or monarchy.

Re: # 94

Manto (not the literary giant) via Mr. Asadi:

"It causes one to behave in an undignified manner."

Sure, THIS website has a huge problem; many times I've seen a hand emerge from my keyboard and force me to write things I don't even think about! Chowq'a bans are hence illegal.

:)

Re: # 91
Ganja,

There's no issue with your parents (the only 'issue' is you!), but nevertheless I'd request you to stay away from your 'addicted to porn' habit; this is what tripped Manto, and look where he wound up.

As for my comment ["May the worms happily feed upon your tongue (in a dark Rabwah grave) for uttering filth against my family"], your joy ["how much I enjoyed this piece of invective, what a marvellously vitriolic piece of rhetoric"] has been noted with pleasure.

In my heart I do pray for Chowq's misguided cases.

:)

Gill Sahib

Religion has no business in the formation or functioning of Government, totally agreed.

Re: # 99 Your question is not clear.

Jinnah had himself taken the initiative in the Central Assembly to get a resolution passed supporting the provincial part of Govt of India Act 1935 which specified that provincial governments would be responsible to legislative majorities in provincial assemblies.

If Jinnah wanted to reject the constitutional status of legislative majorities in UP and other Hindu majority provinces(as he did in 1937), he should have said so earlier.

#90:
"Both acknowledge that Partition was not on Jinnah's mind (or at least the Partition of Punjab/Bengal - although he would have accepted unpartitioned Punjab/Bengal)"

How does one 'accept' something in a non-partitioned India ?

One of the reasons Pakistan was created was also that the Americans and their British allies were fearful of Southward expansion of the Soviet Union towards the Arabian Sea. Pakistan was created to act as a buffer against USSR. Soon after creation, it was taken into the fold of American bloc making it a member of CENTO and other such treaties.
Had India been one, the British were certain this would have not been possible.
It is another matter that Zia ul Haque later played on these very fears during the Soviet intervention in Afghanistan to extract goodies from the Americans which he famously called peanuts.
Of course, along with the goodies for the generals of Pakistan army, this policy also brought for the Pakistani state Afghan refugees who wont go away, Talibs, drugs , gun running without which it could have done.
Messy foreign policy right from its inception, one has to say.

points like #95 and not #233- correction

BTW points like #233 and others that point to real facts on the ground were the ones using which I mopped chowk floors with Manto's greasy hair, he was thoroughly and completely defeated and those that read and remember will bear witness to that fact....

TNITC masadi

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Manto writes "Anyway... this is the problem with this website. It causes one to behave in an undignified manner."

Don't try to cover up your own shortcoming by blaming the website. It is your dirty maggot infested soul that often reveals itself everywhere......and refer to me as SIR from now on you moron, I am your intellectual superior

TNITC masadi

Majumdar you right wing lunatic (with apologies), since when did 'democracy' become giving morons a free ride to the FP and others 'garbage space' in ilogs and unplugged? And you call that democracy and freedom of speech. You really are a lunatic of the right wing sort. And your 'equilibrium' theory of a three nation solution is BS.

TNITC masadi

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"May the worms happily feed upon your tongue (in a dark Rabwah grave) for uttering filth against my family"

+++++++++++

I don't want to comment on any of this discussion, and remain neutral on what is being said, but I just wanted to say how much I enjoyed this piece of invective, what a marvellously vitriolic piece of rhetoric.

Re: # 49 Manto

Ayesha Jalal's book is not an easy read, but it has lots of good information. BTW, I recommend you see the Indian movie 'Sardar' which is based on the life of Sardar Patel. The book is consistent with the account of the Partition negotiations in the movie. Both acknowledge that Partition was not on Jinnah's mind (or at least the Partition of Punjab/Bengal - although he would have accepted unpartitioned Punjab/Bengal), it was the Congress (both Nehru and Patel, and not just Nehru) who threw in the towel and asked for Partition rather than accept the groupings.

That said, I think that Jinnah miscalculated on at least two accounts according to Jalal:

a) he thought that Congress would never accept Partition and continue to negotiate on groupings, not realizing that any communal formula was anathema to the Congress

b) he thought that he had ample time to work this out, whereas Mountbatten advanced the timetable for Independence

He also never defined what 'Pakistan' meant to keep all factions of the League in his tent, but that also meant that when Partition came suddenly, Pakistan had no well-defined vision.

Re: # 88 harish
[...he wants us to believe that Jinnah's very same "personal secular beliefs" were enough to guarantee safety to the Hindu-Sikh minorities in Pakistan...]

Ha ha... and moreover, J-man was of "Muslim" League party...

A secular Congress is bad for muslims, but a Muslim League party, which expressly says it's for muslims, will good for other minorities...

Man - These pakis are so stupid...

#61 by MantoLives

In other words... whatever Nehru's personal secular beliefs... this meant a total domination of Hindu majority in New Delhi on areas which were Muslim majority.

OK, so Yasser believes despite Nehru's personal secular beliefs, Hindus would have dominated Muslims in India. Yet, he wants us to believe that Jinnah's very same "personal secular beliefs" were enough to guarantee safety to the Hindu-Sikh minorities in Pakistan. How balanced!

Re: # 47 Pew
[...MAJ did not desire Partition...]

Man - that little "revelation" cracks me up - after 60 years of pakis going blue on face on TNT and Hindooo domination and waht not - it turns out that the "father of the nation" dude himself didn't even want a separate pakiland... it was congress who made pakiland... LOL

another propaganda says that "diobandis" and "ahmadis" were created by the british to create a confusion between the muslims so they could deviate from "jihad". I don't buy that,no mater who has proven it or written about it.

similarly there are mullas who have written stuff which does not make sense at all !!! tahir says "faith starts where science ends", science is not alone, the "neem hakeem" of our time are really hurting the religion bad.

well to my point of view, Jinnah was "used" to create pakistan on a base which even Jinnah would have gone like "I dunno guys!!!".

He spent his whole life in england and they convinced him to make a "muslim" state. the idea was a great but the approach was wrong. religion was used to get a piece of land but it was all about a group of people having a ground so they can get thier "powerplay" on!!! and it happened !!! look back and it's all clear, look now and it's even clearer !!!

problem is that we are not honest to the land,we got it, took it for granted.picked people who screwed it over and over and the land kept smiling,we leave it,get a different nationality,but when we die,she takes us back.the values which had made it are all lost.the system has gone so corrupt that a voice goes quite before it's even raised.

As for Ahmadis, they are not a british creation, it's a part of the propaganda to link them with british. it's a sect based on faith and that is all to it. I know atleast 3 people who were ahmadis,

1. Allama Iqbal - most people may not know this but he was,the reason he was quite was due to the pressure which was to come from the mullahs (javed iqbal says he does not know that), search youtube for dr. shahid masood's interviews.
2. Chaudry Zafar Ullah Khan (a key activist)
3. Dr. Abdussalam (nobel prize winner)

they were good human beings,so stop this hatred for sects and forgod sake be humble.my dad is a hardcore maudodi follower,he's got a thing for it as well, anyone who carries a name "mirza", he be like "is heee??" and i am like "relax dad".

irony is that most of us don't even pray 5 times or have not openend quran in ages but we are so fired up to declare anyone whatever we want to. let me ask you, when you die will you be asked about ahmadis or shia etc etc? only what you have done and that is it !!! Do Allah care if you are a shia or a sunni? then what the hell (with respect) is wrong with us all? why are we stuck in this sect war? we label this islam? how?

coming back to britian, isn't that where everyone else runs off to? benazir, itlaf, nawaz, hell I got half of my family living in UK, they all went there and seeked asylum when bhutto was hanged, whoever gets a boot in Pakistan, ends up in UK, so do not point out a single entity.

peace.

Re: # 82 tahir, you here as well

http://www.chowk.com/unplugged/3

curious, as it has your hall marks!

Re: # 42

That is exactly the point I am trying to make.

The apology came too late; I'd already pressed the CONDEMNED button after carefully reviewing the file of the vile evidence.

Re: # 78
Manto Dead,

By half-heartedly admitting that you don't possess this or that passport, you stood on a pedestal, by mentioning my mother with your foul mouth, you've shown your true colours.

I have reason to believe that YOU are the one who abused my family posing as PEON OF THE WEST.

May the worms happily feed upon your tongue (in a dark Rabwah grave) for uttering filth against my family. Real men don't drag one another's mother into a fight unless they're hopeless barristers or sinisters.

Don't bother explaining or apologizing.

Anyway... this is the problem with this website. It causes one to behave in an undignified manner.

I retract my last unparliamentary comment to tahir with due apology and beg leave from this horrible website.

Mr. F. thinker,

While we're at it, let me object to the title of the piece.

17 crore people live here daily, some die too. So?

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Re: # 76
Maj,

"ML is a part of the Lawyers movement."

A while back someone did insist that Her Majesty's (lack of) Intelligence-5, were dishing out Ponds and Pennies for this apparently useful movement.

Tahir mian,

Our friend Mantolives is as you have rightly suspected a Mirzaee. But to the best of my knowledge he holds no foriegn passport he is based in Isloo and is a part of the Lawyers movement.

Regards

Re: # 67
Manto (does he really live?),

"I challenge tahir and the entire furry-haired brigade to provide one rational verifiable piece of evidence anywhere that shows that Ahmadis/Quadianis are a "British creation"."

For how many decades have you been asleep? I won't put my foot over this Q-trap this time as I've said enough already long ago. You do a good job of provoking one into a uselss discussion; do you have a British passport? Once the Q-types are done licking their wounds, I might get the axe out again.

To begin with, read:

The Ahmadiyya Movement (British-Jewish Connection) by Bashir Ahmad.

Then come back here for more.

Are you a 'Q-type'?

Re: # 66
Maj,

"Even if u are not published on FP, you can freely publish on UP and i-logs section. UP at least generates a fair amount of participation. Why dont you participate on UP?"

Chowq is promoting the kind of democracy that the wild west is attempting to sell to us: lop-sided. Notice who is and is NOT published; the pattern remains unchanged.

Unplugged is like a dancing girl's rooftop, never will I be found frequenting it.

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Re: # 43
Asadi sahib,

A good dhoti-blowing post ruined by 'you moron, you dumbass' etc.

Zamzam Cola, enjoy!

Re: # 42
Manto,

"What is happening in Swat is the logical extension of the war on terror."

Logic as manufactured in the White-Washed House with British help, that's for sure. Never look for any other reason.

"If we've decided to fight this war, we have to realize that this war is going to be fought in our streets."

Who is WE; the KKK (Khaki Killing Klan)? You're talking like those who allowed the monster into our borders and now worry about helping those who sponsored its entry!

"Frankly I don't understand...."

You will one day.

Tahir mian,

Why don't you post the video for YLH's (Mantolives) benefit which showed that Aga Khanis, Attaturk and Qs were all a part of the Zionist-Freemason conspiracy. Maybe he can comment after going thru the video.

Regards

Re: # 41
Asadi sahib,

Thanks for lifting the dhoti on Mr. Manto. Do let me know more; I love knowing people!

May Allah save us from the flag-worshippers.

:)

Re: # 35
Thinker for free,

"I had to change my complete identity. I am surprised that you noticed."

You can run but you can't hide. People notice.

:)

I know I promised two posts ago to post my last post but consider this an added installment...

I challenge tahir and the entire furry-haired brigade to provide one rational verifiable piece of evidence anywhere that shows that Ahmadis/Quadianis are a "British creation".

An ironic similarity between the Hindu Majority that dominates India and the Sunni Majority that dominates Islam (by extension Pakistan) is that every thing becomes a "British creation".... Ismailis British creation, Pakistan British creation, Ahmadis British creation, Dalits British creation, ... Hindus and Sunnis ascribe more things to the British than what is actually possible for one nation to have done. Going by the Hindu and Sunni versions of History... everything is a conspiracy theory.

The common thread ofcourse is that they constitute "majorities"... majorities which are not "being respected"... hence there is a conspiracy being hatched every minute... Sadnas, Tahirs, Atifs are merely same people in different majorities... kindred souls really.

Tahir mian,

To be fair ChowQ is far more democratic than most other forums. Even if u are not published on FP, you can freely publish on UP and i-logs section. UP at least generates a fair amount of participation. Why dont you participate on UP?

Regards

Re: # 30
Asadi,

"What did the chowk members do to deserve a double dose of the shirnk and Gill at the same time?"

A valid question that'll get you banned again, but don't be afriad.

PS: Who knows who is related to whom here?

Re: # 9
Liberated Mind,

"this belief does not resolve the inherent problem."

It has solved all my problems and I can see very clearly; all praise is due to Him alone. Like the Book says, (and I too wish it for others), learn to distiguish between the right and the wrong paths, for there's no compulsion in religion.

"As an extreme example, the Qadianis, followers of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, also have the same Book, Quran, yet their understanding is fundamentally so different that they are called infidels by other Muslims. Only God knows which understanding is correct."

I've said enough about this British creation, while others much more knowledgeable have come to the same conclusion. The Q-group holds a twisted mirror to look at their faces.

There are shades of meanings, and I think you know it well how the Book mentions 'how each sect rejoices in its own tenets'; that's what God is there for: to decide and show the wrong-doers how little of their brains they used for analysis!

Stay cool up in Kanda.

kaurajhoot,

Yaar, isn't it ironic ... you first discriminate against a person by calling him a Muslim. Then you complain that he embraced that role.

The hypocrite my dear friend is you. Damn right that "hate" created Pakistan. That hate however was not on part of Jinnah or the Muslims... that hate was always from hypocrites like you.

I don't wish to waste another minute of my time on this website...

Those interested in an honest exchange of ideas on partition ... please visit:

Partition of India: A dialogue

http://pakteahouse.wordpress.com/2009/04/06/partition-of-india-a -dialogue/

PS:

"nehru gave them a lesson in respecting elected majorities"

Nonsense. They were the elected majority in their province.
Nehru insisted on controlling everything from the center.

In other words... whatever Nehru's personal secular beliefs... this meant a total domination of Hindu majority in New Delhi on areas which were Muslim majority.

Ironically neither the Punjabi Muslims nor Jinnah (who worked at cross purposes through out) had brought separate electorates in... indeed Jinnah's proposals (in opposition to Punjabi Muslims' position) had paved the way for a clear path to joint electorates ... by guaranteed representation of 33% at the center (as opposed to 25% that Hindu Mahasabha had agreed to with Motilal Nehru) .... so whatever bakwas Sadna is doing here... the facts are very different.

The real question comes down to whether there was any need of speaking up for Muslims... it is often claimed by people like Sadna and other such Indian types that Jinnah started speaking for Muslims only because he could not compete with Gandhi and Nehru types in the Congress. Well the reason he could not compete with Gandhi and Nehru types is because he had a Muslim name ... despite the fact that there was nothing in his dress, lifestyle, education that distinguished him on religious grounds.

The truth is that people like Nehrus etc and Sadna types today would accept only those Muslims who would play second fiddle. Bacha Khans and Azads are fine... the former was a regional leader with little or no threat to Gandhi and Nehru etc ... the latter was a religious scholar with no real political following... All their self righteousness about "elected majorities" and "one-man one vote" is predicated on the fact that they were a majority and nothing else.

Why bother with facts and information when its so popular these days to blame Islam and "mullahs". I personally think that divide and rule is continuing to work because of articles like this that continue to divide our ranks into smaller and smaller groups that each refuse to work with one another. What needs to be done is to curtail not only the Taliban and religious extremists, but also these liberal extremists since they both over-react to one another and cause problems for the remainder of mainstream Pakistan. Mohammad Gill.....try a little more education before saying that Shia Islam is different from Sunni Islam which is different from Wahabi Islam. You really need an education on this subject cause you don't know what you're talking about. Ask the followers of Imam Jafar and the followers of the main schools of thought in Sunni Islam whether or not there are fundamental differences in our sharia.

Besides....aside from complaining about what you perceive to be wrong.....do you have any solutions? If not....I propose you stop whining and get an education first.

Sadna,

Only someone who is deluded or completely a dunce would put Punjabi Muslims and Jinnah's political objectives in one basket... anyone who has read (without the blinkers you have on) the round-table conferences and the role your favorite Sir Fazli Hussain played... in opposition to Sapru, Jinnah (and by extension against your Nehru and Gandhi etc)... would know that Punjabi Muslim landed interests worked on cross purposes with Jinnah's interests which were all-India... the real rub is that you keep harping about this majority majority thing when you lack total understanding of the politics of the period.

I really hope that you give up this obsession you have with partition politics because you neither have the ability nor the intellectual integrity to decipher this very important period in the collective history of our subcontinent.

#46 Posted by BJ2

“I don't think that the country of Pakistan is going to be swallowed by the Talibanese�

No Sir! That is not the problem. The problem is that now that the civil war has started it is just not one protagonist against another. There is not just one constituency which is disgruntled, everybody is unhappy in their current circumstance. With no strong central authority, no coherent Pakistani identity and no principles on which every one could agree upon it seems that the lid from all these frustrations is coming off. For the foreseeable future where as in the past interest groups would talk about or protest or petition for their causes, from here on they would fight for them. This means we are destined towards greater chaos. Different constituencies will ally with each other and fight each other at different times during this civil war.

The first signs are already there. The army is not fighting the Taliban with the only aim of defeating them, had that been the case they would be fighting a lot smarter war then they seem to be. Its more like fighting an American style war with one of the goals being to extract as much aid as they can. Same is true of the civilian leadership who are more interested in their portrayal on the world scene and enriching themselves whether through the war effort or the humanitarian crisis that it is creating.

Trouble is that once such a civil war starts it just doesn’t die down quickly enough. So the long grueling struggle that the country has to endure, when the infrastructure which is already crumbling gets destroyed even further, another generation gets lost because schools cant function, jobs are not there and nothing works. That is the calamity, that is what we mourn and that is Gill Sahib’s lament.

d_m
"
Of course, the Unionists wanted a unite Punjab. They were Punjabis and had no problem with fellow Hindu and Sikh Punjabis. They associated with Jinnah primarily because Nehru foolishly made it plain that their future would be grim in Nehru's India."

Yeah Nehru gave them their first lesson in respecting elected majorities. Unfortunately inspite of Nehru's lesson, Jinnah and the Punjabi Muslims deluded themselves that they could evade the majority principle for ever, and that is the 60-year story of Pakistan.

Re: # 52 BJ2 you know elites. You have quite lot of them there also.
Elite is like Yuppy. He mimics white people is snob and eats with spoons and eats on table, eats mango by cutting by knife than sucking. He is cruel and have got free ride like our bb or your rahul and they just god damn look for themselves and and always want to help poor people. They wear coats and toiies at 45 degree temp. They think they are smart and most importantly they feel awam owns them lot and they have right to be PM and what not and pontiff on everything and give messages.THey talk too much worry about rise in temp and always tell what govt should do is make solar and wind energy and go home out of car and start generator and AC and laments when desis are going to care for rise in temp and in anger open freeze and let co2 go from bear and drink it and say our people are never going to learn.
Elite thinks too much about himself and always feel all others do not know any thing and they are no nothing as recently elite gentleman from Ibad has told Masadi you are nothing etc. They have strange attitude if elite farts he feels he is giving message to masses etc.
Now some time i will write but now let me go.
Generally if meet pompous man then after his big talk you feel bad and he was irritating then you have met elite.MOst Elites believe is to not act but talk and talk, tons of talk and no one gram of action and he has contempt for others little people.You get it hope.

If the subcontinent had remained one it would have been a Lebanon with 1.5 billion people with the social and economic stats of Burkina Faso. What good wud that have done to anyone- Hindoo or Muslim? I agree with YLH that two/three successor entities with the majority nationality comprising more than 80% majority wud be the most stable outcome.

India and Pakistan's problems arise out of the fact that both made wrong choices. India took to Nehruvian Stalinism for about 45 years while Pakistan made a turn to militarism and militancy. And even in Pakistan's case I can't help thinking that had Kashmir been resolved peacefully it may never have turned out that way.

Regards

Re: # 46 BJ2 you are wrong and Dr Gill is correct. There is moral corrouption 200% ( not talking about tax evasion and making black money). Imoral leadership has encouraged Talibs they know whom they are against. They are not kind they are cruel is open ( it is open secret leadership is 200% corroupt and spinelss, they are so coward they can not even say openly against talibs except whiping boy of all ie Altafbhai)
You look in nature it not size or strength but character of wild lion which brings down one at time buffllow at time. Buffllow is quite strong but is afraid so can resist. Already Moulan Disel and other are becoming defender of talibs. Talibs know fear is key. They will slowly demolish and take over state of pakistan the way army is fighting them in classical american and french fashion leading to defeat in Vietnam. It is astonishing for short term avoiding losses army has entered the trap set by talibs and it must just as planned. Only it can be averted if moral leadership will arise and tell army to fight proper way not army basic aviodance way. ( there is no body with that moral character and authority to force army fight.Kindly read little pavo. ) Good day.
I hope for best for army and presidents victories.

madani sahib: so you think taliban is not corrupt pipple? you are right. they are not pipple, corrupt of not. they are animals. so they cover face with towel, so you dont see their dog-going-to-hell nose.

Re: # 51

Ahmedmadani sahib, what is this rant against the "elites"? Are you trying to give Masadi sahib a run for his money?

Re: # 18 Mr. Gill aka AK.... Your response is right.
It is extremely cruel to make such coment to say they are making too much of Internally Displaced people.Almost 1 million people will be moved if not more.
British people left but we are still slaves in mentality. All world is appaled at looking pictures. The elite of pakistan is worst and most inhuman than wild animals. One feels shame how a person who is in his prime , leaving in pakistan in IBad in posh area, having all advantages that elites get wealthy parents, good business background can make such comments. This disease of uncaring has become character and second nature. With so many displaced and running away most head of state will rush back but president is "spending" time in newyork. Our elites have become heartless, in their poltics people lives , specially poor and tribal have less value than animals. People have no food, water, they had homes and families they are uprooted. May be talibs are harsh and what not but if elites of pakistan moving in california and discussing stuff with indians as if this some painting a abstract painting. If our leading young educated foreign trained preveliged young men feels this way then we should ask for recolonisation for those whites are too kind compared our future heartless leaders. I appreciate mr. Masadi many times and some times feel he need to moderate but in this case he is too mild. If majority adult elites are like this then people will feel Talibs far kind than so called liberal secular and "educated" in foreign ivy colleges. With high command with such moralless and cruel morally superiopr Talibs will finish elites slowly but surely like barbarians did to Corroupt Romans.
I feel sad how elites and so heartless are elites.
This is very disturbing trend in young successful men and women and it gives shudder what is in store for this land which already is punished so long and so harshly. Your comment were harsh which proved mr. Manto but they are true and bitter.

anil...

Sure... you have my email?

Pew,

Well yes... but this is not as simple as either side makes it. It may be argued that the grouping of Muslim majority areas, constituting independent and autonomous units, as embodied by the Muslim League's Lahore resolution (later popularized by the Congress as "Pakistan") was not in variance to the notion of Indian unity.

Furthermore... it must also be realized that the Cabinet Mission Plan did not go far enough to meet the proposal of the Lahore Resolution... it actually rejected all the planks of League's demand including parity. Therefore it is very significant that Jinnah accepted it nonetheless. It is equally significant that Congress chose to reject the CMP.


Masadi mian,

So now I live in a million dollar house. good...anything else in your depraved third rate mind that you have to say?

Yasser:

If you visit San Francisco area, I can take you out for a lunch. It would be interesting to listen to what you have to say.

Re: # 42 Manto

Did you reach the conclusion that MAJ did not desire Partition, and had no choice when Congress accepted it rather than agree to the Grouping formula of two separate Dominions?

Dr. Gill, you worry needlessly. Yes, these are times of turbulence but I don't think that the country of Pakistan is going to be swallowed by the Talibanese -- with or without any acts of war by the khakis. I base that prediction on the common sense observation that the Talibanese style of living is so suffocating and stifling that nobody will live under it too long, so it can be sustained for only so long and like the Communist system, will destroy itself -- only a lot faster.

oh and finally, I am not obsessed with your puny brainless chidish rants about Jinnah, but I'll be goddamned if I step back and let your type of morons take ownership of either Pakistan or the Muslims of India, one Jinnah mistake is enough, he succeeded because of the Brits, you want to push the American agenda following in his footsteps....

TNITC masadi

Manto writes "Know your auqaat bhai."

My auqaat is that I stir up things wherever I go based on the intelligence Allah has blessed me with. I amaze people regardless of the paper pushing losers you refer to as my 'colleagues'.

Have a nice day,

TNITC masadi

Manto writes "it is not that India does not have the problems we have... or that India is this perfect utopia that people make it out to be... but Indians don't indulge in this unnecessary exercise of self immolation which goes beyond academic inquiry... and is in the realm of Obsessive Compulsive Disorder... an national OCD of sorts. Indians don't have it. We do."

Manto you charlatan, you live in a million dollar home in Islamabad and then claim to have a grip on the pulse of the nation that is food deprived? Further, you don't understand the basic point of this alarmism about Pakistan and not India. India is a major distraction a flag bearer for legitimizing Western imperialism in this age while Pakistan is supposed to 'fall' to facilitate the U.S. war machine. You don't get this basic point you moron so the rest of your analysis is the depiction of the goddamned loser you are, you rich fart, you know less about Pakistan than the common rickshaw driver, get that in your dumbass skull...

TNITC masadi

Yes Pew Research, I've read it. Good that you've read it too.

Muqaddam,

I live there. Most of what you see here is media hype. Chowk-wallahs have been predicting Pakistan's demise for over 10 years now. So keep hoping and praying. We are not going away though.


Masadi,

Why are you obsessed with me? You are an insignificant little foolish man who isn't taken seriously. You should hear some of the things your "colleagues" say about you. Please don't bother with me... you would have to climb many shoulders before we can meet eye to eye on anything bhai. Know your auqaat bhai.


Azadkhayal,

What I meant was that we've lived through the terrorist threats... and yes the chaos that is going on in Islamabad.. with taiban threatening to blow up our schools and children. I am here in California on vacation this month. I will return to Pakistan come June. You guys have got it wrong.


What is happening in Swat is the logical extension of the war on terror. If we've decided to fight this war, we have to realize that this war is going to be fought in our streets. Why then should you or anyone else hark back to choices and decisions made a good 70 years ago? Frankly I don't understand and it is now a worthless exercise. That is all I am saying.

Tahir sahib, it is outrageous that these miserable chowkstaff publish this nonsense and censor article upon article of others they don't agree with. Also, Manto is a charlatan, he wants exclusive representation of the Pakistani view based on his Jinnah worship. He boasts about his BBC interviews while at the same time wants to block the voice of much more concerned Pakistanis overseas that the dumbass BBC. Don't fall for his BS.

TNITC masadi

This is not an isolated incident, as many apologists would like one to believe

But because of the myopic ap-proach of the people who matterthat a strange story' was heard atthe Punjabi Khojgarh. The man-agers booked a sound system forthe function from Kasur. All thedetails were settled and moneywas advanced to the- shopkeep-er. But at later stage the shop-keeper inquired for what pur-pose the system was going to beused. When he came to knowthat a seminar has been ar-ranged in memory of BabaNanak, the shopkeeper immedi-ately returned the advance pay-ment and excused that thesound system must not Ik; usedfor Kafirs. Meaning thereby thatTalibans arc not only found 1the tribal or NWFP areas onlybut also 111 the Kasur of BabaBullen Shah.

What baffles me is that non muslims, suffering from inferiority complexes or stockholm syndrome, worry about muslims' feelings, and go dumb an mute at the suffering of berthern"

Despite dominating politics, police force army and a united voting majority block in India, How could muslims be at a disadvantage?

and is it hindu/sikh fault that muslims didn't own more land or businesses, under an impartial British governance? It was their own jahaliyat They are far behind Hindus and Sikhs in the USA as far as economic success is concerned. Whose fault is that?

Should we create a Pakistan in the USA too?

Rubbish being repeated here!!

Re: # 29 Dost

Your assessment is purely subjective lacking any rigor, and fails to take into account that a majority Muslim state with Muslims wielding political power in the Punjab for the first time in a few hundred years would have benefited them. You are not figuring the cost of lost opportunity from higher defense spending. If the benefits were so apparent, then you would have thought that the Unionists would have supported it at the outset, no?

Re: # 29 Dost

Your assessment is purely subjective lacking any rigor, and fails to take into account that a majority Muslim state with Muslims wielding political power in the Punjab for the first time in a few hundred years would have benefited them. You are not figuring the cost of lost opportunity from higher defense spending. If the benefits were so apparent, then you would have thought that the Unionists would have supported it at the outset, no?

Re: # 8
Manto,

"So please... atleast those Pakistanis who live abroad spare us Pakistanis who live in the country. This is an appeal to your sense of reason and balance.

They just don't get it! I've essentially said the same to them so many times through articles and posts. THIS is one of the reasons behind the bans imposed on me!

Dost mittar: #25:
I had forgotten my password and couldn't log-in. I tried using "freethinker" with a different password but it was rejected because it was already being used. So I had to change my complete identity.
I am surprised that you noticed.
Mohammad Gill

For the umtieeth time:

Pakistan was created by hate; not 'feelings of muslims', by a self interested hypocrite, who wouldn't have given a damn about muslim feelings if he was elected the president of Congress or given a position within new India. He was too dangerous for Nehru and his self interests......so, he played the muslim card...

that is imminent

so long chowk members, my banning is eminent...

TNITC masadi

oh I forgot, the shrink and Gill and that Al-Gore rep woman here, forget her name, they are CHOWK STAFF.

TNITC masadi

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Pew:

Of course, the Unionists wanted a unite Punjab. They were Punjabis and had no problem with fellow Hindu and Sikh Punjabis. They associated with Jinnah primarily because Nehru foolishly made it plain that their future would be grim in Nehru's India.

I am not denying that Punjabi Muslims were the last to join the movement for a separate homeland, they did not feel inferior, unlike their Bengali counterparts, but this is not to deny that they have benefited from the Partition.

Re: # 27 Dost

I doubt if your assessment would have been supported by the Unionists. Had they known that Pakistan would involve Partition of Punjab, they would certainly not have supported the Muslim League. However, as events came to pass, the notion of Punjab's partition was so far away from their minds, that they never contemplated it.

The same applies to Bengal - had the Bengal League known that Partition of Bengal was in the future with Calcutta going to India, they would likely never have supported it.

Indeed, Jinnah (incorrectly) thought that Congress would not accept Partition. Congress did to Jinnah's dismay.

Pew:

You notice that I did not mention political domain. The political landscape was dominated by feudal landlords - the Unionist Party was actually known as "Zamindara Party" in Punjabi and its deputy chief was a Hindu jaat by the name Sir Chhotu Ram.

Re: # 25 Dost

Then how come undivided Punjab's political leadership was mostly Muslim? I am thinking of the Unionist Party.

Gill saheb:

What made you translate your nick into Urdu?

Having been to more places in Pakistan than most Pakistanis - from Khyber to Karachi and Moenjodaro to Taxila, and in all modes of transportation - air, rail, bus, qinchi - I can say that life in Pakistan is in no way inferior to that in India, at least when you compare Indian metros to Pak metros.

It is a stretch to say that Pakistanis would have been better off if they had stayed in India. Next time you are in Pakistan, please go and look at the historical records of any college in Lahore or Rawalpindi, you would find that almost all of the faculties and most of the students were Hindus or Sikhs; while some feudal landlords did very well in Punjab, ordinary Muslim was far behind; Hindus and Sikhs dominated all the professions and commerce and the service sectors such as railways, post offices and banks; they owned more than their share of agricultural lands and overwhelmingly owned urban properties. The Muslim plight in Bangladesh was even worse. Do you think that this would have changed significantly if there were no partition? Just by way of comparison, you would find that while political landscape has changed in India, the same upper castes dominate professions and businesses as did before the partition. This is why you do not find many Pakistanis who regret the Partition or very few Indian Muslims who are happy where they are.

Re: # 10 Manto

Hello! Just finished Ayesha Jalal's Sole Spokesman. Have you read it? My views on Jinnah have changed slightly.

major #19

You should see the flurry of articles on pakteahouse.wordpress.com. Basically they are bringing Indian writers and proving that they wanted Pakistan because they did not trust Hindus and at the most would give CMP to Hindus and since Hindus did not accept it and
so it is Hindus who caused Partition for which Pakistanis
are happy.
Pakistanis are certifiably crazies, no wonder that country
is in deep trouble as it is now, basically clueless people, who hated Hindus to ask for a separate state for themselves and kick out/convert all Hindu/Sikhs.
No idea what to do after that.

" banjara286 on May 11, 2009 10:37:02 am
Re: # 19
that london wala hijrDa is most welcome any time to migrate back to india. it will solve a lot of problems in Pakistan.
"

Apparently, it's not just God. Even a true Pakistani is a Sunni Punjabi alone? ;)

Re: # 19
that london wala hijrDa is most welcome any time to migrate back to india. it will solve a lot of problems in Pakistan.

i am sure he and lalloo bhai would be a big hit in northern india.

Re: # 18 Gill

Well, Swat is not islamabad, so obviously YLH is not concerned at all... What happens in swat, stays in swat...

You sinister alarmist you, how can you do this?... LOL

Re: # 17 banjara

Well, Altaph Bhai has been on record on that(he said "partition was a mistake" or something like) - his party was/is part of your govt, as I understand, so that was a strong statement coming from somebody "powerful" like him...

There has been endless discussions recently in chowk about how pakis didn't even want partition, they wanted some kind of "federation", but Congress/Nehru did it... ask YLH more on it...

Anyhoo - I don't want you pakis to repent, it is what it is, live with it... I mean, can you imagine altaph bhai and his gang knocking at wagah border to let back into mother bhindia?... LOL

MantoLives: #8:
Your opening line reads: "I live in Islamabad Pakistan. I live there with my family...and we've gone through the chaos you refer to... but I am afraid it is not as bad as people here in California make it out to be."
I hope you are right. But Swat is part of Pakistan and there is a revolt raging there. I quote here below some of the headlines from Dawn.com of May 11, 2009.
• At least 360,000 flee fighting in Swat, Buner,
Lower Dir.
• US offers 4.9 million dollars aid for Swat IDP.
• Swat operation to wipe out Taliban.
• Talibanisation and identity crisis.
• Up to 700 militants killed in Swat offensive and
and several other.
There are several other similar news items in this issue also describing the unrest and revolt. I empathize with those who have been uprooted from their homes and are now living in refugee camps. Do you have any experience of living in a refugee camp? I have.
My objective of writing this article was not sinister or sadistic and I didn’t blow it up. I am deeply touched by what is happening in Pakistan, a country for which I as one had suffered a great deal.
Be well.

Mohammad Gill

Re: # 16
so one person's view generalizes it to the entire nation's repentance?

Re: # 14 banjara

Did you even read this article?... :)

this is what your man Mr Gill says in his article: "Reflecting on the current situation in Pakistan, I tend to believe Pakistanis wouldn’t have gotten a worse deal from the Hindus had India not been divided"

Re: # 9
"Only God knows which understanding is correct".

very true. but didn't u know that god is a sunni punjabi?

Re: # 12
"while pakis are starting repent it..."

major saab,

only in ur wet dreams.

can u plz give us a list of pakistanis who have been "repenting" it on chowk?

Mr. Gill

This is a rather depressing article. But, end of day, what purpose is served in discussing what ifs? Yes, maybe all of us would have been better served had partition not taken place. Flip side, maybe we would have been like Rwanda, killing each other. The point is, who knows. End of day, lot of nations were created in the 1940s and some of them were new creations, others had a historical presence in civilizational terms and regardless these nations all exist. Quit thinking about the ideology behind the creation of Pakistan. Instead, accept Pakistan as it exists and be the best you can be. Process, not personalities or ideologies, are key.

Re: # 10 YLH
[... in other words India would have all the benefits of the present... or almost all of them...]

In other words - Why pretend when you can have the real thing?...

It's funny how things have come full circle... indians now fully appreciate the good thing that partition was, while pakis are starting repent it... LOL

Re: # 8
The whole world is getting anxious about the state in which Pakistan finds itself, primarily because of the threat to world peace all arising out of the half clever at the same time self defeating policies followed by Pakistan's rulers.
The Pakistani army and bureaucracy which remain in a perpetual denial manage to convince some Pakistanis that there is nothing wrong.
Please wake up.

muqaddam,

I don't have time to discuss this idiotic proposition that you put up... but with a 65% 35% (actually 72-28) you would have two warring communities ....

No discerning Indian Hindu would entertain this idea secular or not... because conventional wisdom is that a successful nation state always has a cultural majority of 80% or more... from an Indian standpoint it would have been a disaster of immense proportions if they would have to contend with Muslim majorities on the fringes... under fiercely particularist leaders like the Tiwanas and Daultanas in Punjab, Fazlul Haq, Suhrawardy and Abul Hashim in Bengal ... Khuhros and GM Syeds of Sindh... and even Bacha Khan types in NWFP .... who then would constitute a 30% minority at the center. It would be a constant veto on India's progress.

The only solution/alternative to partition was the Cabinet Mission Plan... which no matter what A'nulls and Sadnas of chowk say... did not give Muslims parity at the center but created an organic federation atop three sub-federations... in other words India would have all the benefits of the present... or almost all of them...

tahir #5:

You wrote, "There is only ONE correct way specified in the Book, the rest is misguidance."
This is what the followers of each Islam, e.g., Sunni, Shia, Wahabi, etc. believe in; this belief does not resolve the inherent problem. As an extreme example, the Qadianis, followers of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, also have the same Book, Quran, yet their understanding is fundamentally so different that they are called infidels by other Muslims. Only God knows which understanding is correct.
Wishing you well,
Mohammad Gill

Mr. Gill,

I live in Islamabad Pakistan. I live there with my family... and we've gone through the chaos you refer to ... but I am afraid it is not as bad as people here in California make it out to be.

Currently visiting the US, people keep asking me about Pakistan... and I think all these doomsday scenarios you have going in the media- especially here- are mostly fiction.

The issue with Pakistan remains its army which is not in tune with national interests. And because army-centric policy makers dominate our policy-making... the situation is perhaps best reflected by the Economist article on Pakistan's economy in the last issue (23 April-May 1st)...

This constant justification you guys seek... the sentence "we would have gotten a better deal from Hindus" blah blah is just hogwash really because it has no real bearing when such what-ifs are rubbish. Why must we be continuously held to this standard? We exist period. And nor should say those people who attached a certain amount of idealism to the idea of Pakistan in 1947 be held accountable for subsequent failure of successive generations of living up to it.

Please- I ask you as a Pakistani citizen living in Pakistan-to stop this exercise of self immolation every time something goes wrong in Pakistan. I spent last night discussing Indian elections and politics with two very smart Indians from chowk itself... and what they said struck me ... it is not that India does not have the problems we have... or that India is this perfect utopia that people make it out to be... but Indians don't indulge in this unnecessary exercise of self immolation which goes beyond academic inquiry... and is in the realm of Obsessive Compulsive Disorder... an national OCD of sorts. Indians don't have it. We do.

So please... atleast those Pakistanis who live abroad spare us Pakistanis who live in the country. This is an appeal to your sense of reason and balance.

After all that has happened in pakiland(and elsewhere) in name is islam - you still want an "Islamic constitution"?... Unbelievable!!!

I have mentioned this before. Had the partition had not taken place, Hindu-Muslim ratio of the undivided India would have been 65:35, the Hindus not enjoying a brute majority and the Muslims being a minority not to be pushed over. Just the right balance to keep things quiet and peaceful.

Re: # 4Phil,

"different branches of Islam..."

Like Nine Zero branch, Raiwind branch, Swat branch, GHQ branch? There's only ONE correct way specified in the Book, the rest is all misguidance.

Gill sahib

((( I have said it in the past and repeat it here also that different articles concerned with civic and social life be taken from different branches of Islam and included in the country’s constitution. Such a constitution should then be called Islamic constitution)))


Excellent suggestion.I second you on this.

Mr. Gill,

If you're talking about a certain large jar (πιθος pithos) in Greek mythology, carried by Pandora (ΠανδώÏ?α) that contained evils to be unleashed on mankind (ills, toils and sickness, but finally hope), it was called PANDORA'S BOX (and not Pandora box)!

Gill Sahib,

Your first sentence contains what I believe is a historical falsehood - or at least a highly contestable statement. But the motive for the creation of Pakistan is a topic that has been discussed to death, so I will let it pass for now.

Let me raise a basic definitional issue: who or what is a mullah?

Everybody parrots that Mullahs were opposed
to Pakistan but nobody explains or states why
they were opposed to Pakistan!
On what grounds did they oppose creation
of Pakistan?