The Villain of Villains

Re: # 140
Anil, I don't take every Indian seriously. Only the ones who make any sense.

On the SL/LTTE issue, I do take both B. Raman and national sec adviser Narayanan seriously.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Riaz:

I may not be knowledge. But do you honestly believe, intelligence chief will spill all the beans? It would be naive to assume. One of the retired high ranking director of RAW is a member of my extended family. He would not even talk other than saying in less than days notice he would be in Israel.

You probably trust their write ups more, while I try to see the trend, if there is any then I believe the trend. The same is true with Indian press, which gets emotional.

My advise take Indian input not very seriously.

Re: # 138
Anil, I don't think you are particularly knowledgeable about the subjects you like to talk about. So, let me try and help you to the extent possible.

"Where did B. Rama put it, can you put the link here, and who is he?"

B.Raman is a former RAW chief frequently quoted in the press. He runs a website on intelligence and strategy.
http://ramansterrorismanalysis.blogspot.com/2009/02/sri-lanka-indias- moment-of-truth.html

"in conventional war they can take over Pakistan in 10 days'

Again you display your ignorance in spades. In terms of ballistic missiles (with conventional warheads) inventory, heavy artillery, tanks and armor, the things most likely to be used in conventional ground war, Pakistan military strength is essentially equal to India's. Please read about the current conventional military balance here:
http://www.riazhaq.com/2009/01/india-pakistan-military-balance.html

The fact that India backed off from strikes against Pakistan after Mumbai amply showed the impotence of Indian military power.

"Regarding taking Pakistan seriously on economic front. I can assure you that Indians I have met they laugh."

Again, you and your friends know nothing about Pakistani economy. By almost every measure, whether it is real per capita income (ADB ICP report 2008), poverty (UNDP), hunger (World Hunger Index), sanitation (UNICEF), industrial production contribution to GDP (Wikipedia), overall infrastructure and average standard of living (as observed/reported by many foreign reporters), Pakistan is better off than India.

Please read http://southasiainvestor.blogspot.com if you are looking for reliable data and information on Pak vs Indian economy.






Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 136

Riaz:

"...What happened in Sri Lanka last week is India’s moment of truth, as B.Raman puts it..."

Where did B. Rama put it, can you put the link here, and who is he?

You may like to beieve that India takes Pakistan seriously, it may help your ego. India is an elephant that does not know its own underbelly to take it seriously. This generation of India in the city are very cocky, probably that is true in Pakistan too, to take anyone besides "moi" seriously.

When one talks to retired Indian generals, they are very easy to access, as they lead middle class life (yes you have produced a post on Gen. Aurora's loot). Increase in wealth becomes very visible Riaz sahib, because Generals do not make much or retire with much. I know three who live very ordinary life. Two have middle class home in Delhi, and one has a liquor store in San Mateo.

Indian generals will tell you, whether they are boastful - in that case hardly be serious - or whatever, that in conventional war they can take over Pakistan in 10 days, in nuclear war that Pakistan will have to start, but they will have the last say. Therefore, destruction of Pakistan is assured just as great harm to India is assured. It would be like cutting the nose to kill a fly sitting on the nose, then they laugh and say Pakistani generals did exactly that in East Pakistan.

Regarding taking Pakistan seriously on economic front. I can assure you that Indians I have met they laugh.

Cricket is the only thing Indians take Pakistan more seriously than Bangladesh.

They also believe that while Pakistan has good looking actors, they have the Bollywood. Therefore, Pakistanis have to come to India. Talk about cockiness, I have told you.

Polically, it is the same story. No one envies, Pakistan's polical system.

I had not meant to destroy your castle, but you are really building it in the air.

Re: # 131

Tahmed sahib:

"....Both countries need scarce water, and the only real solution is to work together and with the rest of the world to solve the problem of water shortages in the coming decades before it becomes a total calamity...."

I am with you Tahmed sahib this is the only way it is going to be solved. It is would be global problem. Shortage in one supply in the other (much like oil).

To solve it, I feel it should be made viable to bring fresh water from Antartica, and as global warming puts more energy (read more water in the atmosphere) there is bound to be more rain in some parts to complete the cycle, unless some phenomena keeps water perpetually in the atmosphere.

In case, water needs to be brought, and otherwise, it will no longer be free. A market instrument like "water rights" would probably emerge to allow nations to convert them into purchasing or selling water. I do not buy Riaz's alarmist approach.

The value of water right between India and Pakistan will be at the very least the spending by two nations on the war. This I said just to give an idea how "water rights" can be marketed.

Re: # 134
I think Indians do not take Bangladeshis as seriously as they take Pakistanis.

Indians keep raising the specter of Chinese threat, but the reality is that India has about 33 infantry divisions, of which Twenty-four are on Pakistan borders. India has three armored divisions, all three are positioned on Pakistan borders. India has all three of its mechanized divisions deployed near Pakistan borders.

What happened in Sri Lanka last week is India’s moment of truth, as B.Raman puts it. Sri Lanka has triumphed over LTTE terrorists in spite of India, not because of it. Pakistan, along with China, has clearly played a key role as Sri Lanka’s main arms supplier and trainer in ensuring LTTE’s defeat, and India is clearly not happy with how the events played out leading to Sri Lanka’s win. This new reality highlights the importance of Pakistan as a regional player in South Asia and upsets what India’s national security adviser called New Delhi’s “pre-eminent Position� in the region.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

I will agree that the water issue is a serious one - but, like I said, hardly one-sided. Not just India and BD, but Pakistan as well need to work together and with the rest of the world on this - since the coming water shortage can only be solved that way.

RiazHaq: I read the article. It is true that Indian-BD relations have a number of irritants (water, BD immigrants in India, unresolved boundary disputes from 1947, and so on). But nothing, I think you will agree, of the magnitude of the Kashmir dispute. And on these irritants, I think you will agree that these are hardly one-sided issues.

The looting issue is I think more serious than I had thought (I just read #133). There does seem to have been a breakdown in Indian military discipline after the fall of Dhaka - this story reminded me of a former Indian military officer who fought in the 1971 war and told me many years ago how he drove back to India in a captured Pakistan Army jeep which he never returned to the Indian military as he obviously should have. But then..this is a dead issue, almost 40 years old.

Re: # 131

Here's an article I saw by a Bangldeshi woman:

Lt. General Jagjit Singh Aurora, the commander of the Indo-Bangla Joint Forces in 1971 has recently passed away. In this article I am going to share some comments with the readers regarding the late General’s financial impropriety following the Bangladesh war of independence that I learnt in the Indian Capital.

In 1990 I went to Delhi to attend the wedding of a Sikh friend. This friend is a relative of Aurora. The wedding reception took place at the famous Gymkhana Club and was attended by many dignitaries. If I am not mistaken, the Lt. Governor of Delhi and the then Union Home Minister Mufti Mohammed Saeed (it was the time of V P Singh) also attended briefly.

General Aurora, however, missed the reception, as he was taken ill. His daughter attended and my friend introduced me to her. She invited me to meet her famous father and said that ‘daddy’ would be home the next morning to receive and talk to me. Unfortunately, I could not take this invitation as the next day was my last full day in India and I was faced with two options, either to stay in Delhi and meet the General for breakfast and talk about 1971, or to go to Agra to see the Taj Mahal. I opted for the latter.

At the wedding reception, my friend also introduced me to General Jacob. Gen. Jacob was Aurora’s second-in-command in the Eastern Command in 1971 and as many people say, was probably the chief architect of the 1971 Indian invasion and war plan in the eastern theatre. Although the General knew a few more people at the reception than I did, he to some extent like me felt stranger in that gathering. For some unknown reasons, the General liked me a lot and spent the next couple of hours in my company. He also introduced me to few people that he knew at the party. Drinks were served. While I opted for a coke, the general settled for a small beer.

We kept on talking. It was mainly about 1971. The General was very passionate about the whole thing. He spoke about his role and experience during the entire conflict. He did not like General Osmani that much. He found it difficult to work with him. On the other hand, the General was full of praises for Zia and Khondhker (the deputy commander in chief of Bangladesh forces during the 1971 campaign and the first Air Force Chief). The General said that these two were professionals and brilliant officers and that he had really enjoyed working with them.

I asked General Jacob, did he not want to visit Bangladesh, the country that he helped to liberate? The General sounded very disappointed and hurt. In an emotionally choked voice, the General said. “How I can I go to Bangladesh when no one has ever invited me?

I was never invited to Bangladesh.� The General continued, “I have never taken anything from Bangladesh. There are many who took a lot. Someone brought me some bananas. I even paid for them. I have never taken a thing, even General Aurora …� The General stopped and did not complete his sentence. As it was a sensitive topic, I did not want to press the General what did he mean by ‘even General Aurora.� However, one does not need to be a genius to appreciate the meaning of General Jacob’s comments.

Later, the day I was leaving India I was talking to my friend’s father, a relative of General Aurora. He wanted to know why did the Indo-Bangla relationship turn sour? I apprised him of what I thought the main reasons, including Tin Bigha Corridor, Farakkha, Chakhma problems and even the lootings by the Indian forces following the occupation of Bangladesh by them.

My friend’s father said that even in India there were talks about lootings and appropriation of Bangladeshi properties and assets by the Indian forces and that the Indian government had also commissioned an investigation. He then said that there was wide perception that even General Aurora had received a lot from Bangladesh.

Although these comments by two close associates do not establish conclusively that General Aurora had actually received any shares of the booty personally, but it may lead at least one to question the propriety and integrity of the General. Sadly, the General is now dead and will not be able to answer these allegations and clear his name.

General Aurora might not have ordered his troops to go for high scale looting, and one may argue that this might have happened because of lack of discipline and supervision among individual members of Indian armed forces.

However, there is no evidence as to what the General did to stop his soldiers from looting. History will probably remember General Aurora not only as the military commander who successfully negotiated the surrender of the Pakistani forces in Bangladesh without much bloodshed and thus paved the way for an independent Bangladesh, but also as a failed commander who miserably failed to impose discipline and supervision in the conduct of his troops when they resorted to stealing the assets of the country they allegedly came to liberate. The failure to prevent this full scale looting actually planted the first seed of discontent in the hearts of the Bangladeshis.


Tuhin Reza
London

Source: http://www.bangladesh-web.com/view.php?hidDate=2005-05-24&hidType=OPT&hi dRecord=45804
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 131
I think you should read the linked article to fully appreciate what's going on in India-BD relations.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

RiazHaq: I dont think there was a major plunder of BD assets after 1971. I would be surprised if there was, because from all indications the Indian army behaved like a disciplined force in the Bangladesh war (although it has behaved in a criminal manner in Kashmir). As for the water issues - that is what they are: issues. Both countries need scarce water, and the only real solution is to work together and with the rest of the world to solve the problem of water shortages in the coming decades before it becomes a total calamity. Simply accusing one another of "exploitation" on water sharing isnt going to help anyone. Same goes for pakistan-india water disputes, where there is genuine interest on both sides. And surely you cant blame india for "surrounding" Bangladesh - that is simply the way the political geography works.

Re: # 124
Beyond the initial plunder of BD assets and resources by India in 1970s, there are currently very serious border and water issues that threaten the viability of BD. And India treats BD complaints very arrogantly, doesn't even notify it of projects such as river-linking that could devastate BD. "India-locked" on three sides and India's "Blue Water" Navy in Bay of Bengal, BD is completely surrounded and at the mercy of Indians.

Source: http://www.southasianmedia.net/Magazine/Journal/bangladeshindia_tussels.htm
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

#128 Couldnt agree more. When thousands of Pakistanis have been killed, it is a betrayal of their memory - not to mention the betrayal of Pakistan at this critical time in its history - to treat as anything less than as traitors those who are trying directly or indirectly to make it more difficult for our troops to fight the enemy.

Re: # 127tahmed32..Its time for Pakistanis to reject those elements who are against military operation against Taliban,including comrade masadi on this forum.
http://pukhtunkhwatimes.blogspot.com/

Khyber: Today, in a Pakistani group meeting to see what we could do to help during Pakistan's crisis, we were told that Imran Khan was planning to make his annual fund collection to the US. The feeling was unanimous - Imran Khan had betrayed Pakistan at a time when its military was actively engaged in defending it from the taliban invaders, and as such he wasnt getting any chanda from us.

If that link won't work,here is the story....

Daily Times - Site Edition Tuesday, May 26, 2009

Taliban rob a child of his will to play

By Fawad Ali Shah

KARACHI: Mudassir Khan, aged nine, is playing with his cousins on a street in Sultanabad. Though his cousins seem to be enjoying each and every moment of the game, Mudassir’s face paints a different picture.

His movements lack the freedom visible in the other children. When asked why he is not enjoying the game, he murmurs, “I don’t want to play games.� Khan is one of the thousands of children forced to migrate to Karachi after the military operation was initiated in the area.

His father, Muzammal Khan, steps in to better explain Mudassir’s lack of interest in games. Taking the boy aside, he asks Mudassir to narrate his experiences of the Taliban but the child remains silent. “Once he was playing gulli danda, which was his favorite game, when a Talib slapped him and his friends,� reveals Muzzamil Khan, who used to run a medical store in Mingora.

“My son was not like this at all but the tormenting experiences of the past few months have scarred him deeply,� he adds, still trying to coerce the little boy to share his experiences. Mudassir’s eyes start to well up but casting an annoying look at his father, he manages to murmur, “He was very bad, very bad.�

“I was playing gulli danda when a man with a Kalashnikov and a stick in his hand came up to us. He slapped us because we were playing games of infidels,� he narrates, “The Talib said that infidels have created these games in order to deviate the attention of Muslim children and youth from jihad.� He adds that then the Talib forcefully took him to the mosque and since that day, he has never dared to play a game again.

However, the hatred for the Taliban that Mudassir now harbours was not always present. “They would teach me about religion and prayed five times a day,� he says. However, all that changed when the Taliban started beating up people.

He stated that his madrassah teacher once took his 13-year old schoolmate for jihad training. “Maulana sahib would give sermons on jihad, focusing on stories of the glorious past. That friend of mine wanted to be Muhammad Bin Qasim,� says the green-eyed Mudassir.

It may be noted here that after establishing themselves in the area, the Taliban are forcefully sending children to religious seminaries and mosques. Moreover, though the Taliban are against the modern education system and have destroyed many schools in the area, the son of Taliban spokesperson, Muslim Khan, is enrolled in the pharmacy department of the University of Peshawar, which is a co-education university. More interesting was the reply of Muslim Khan when this was pointed out, as he stated that “the study of medicine is allowed in Islam.�

“He is always nervous and jittery all the time,� Waqma, 28, Mudassir’s burqa-clad mother said, adding that the Mudassir’s face was red for quite some time after that slap.

When contacted for an expert’s opinion over the child’s ordeal, Psychologist Haleem Shah said that the child would not be able to recover any time soon. “If the situation is as the parents describe, it will take months for him to recover and possibly play again,� reckoned Shah.

As the children once again run towards the ground, Mudassir remains with his parents, softly whispering, “I don’t want to play.�
QAZI HUSSAIN,IMRAN KHAN AND OTHER IDIOTS DON'T SEE THIS CRUELTY.
http://pukhtunkhwatimes.blogspot.com/