Is TALIBANIZATION a New Phenomenon?

Re: # 427

Hamidm sahib:

In this case in point, Riaz sahib's hatred is no less.

Can you point to me where I am wrong? I am saying that Riaz helped changed my view that there is common ground, just as Jinnah said in support of TNT.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

hamidm2,

I have to really ask, how does Kashmir matter to you?
You are sitting pretty in North America, with most
probably no plans to go back to Pakistan.
Even if Kashmir becomes part of Pakistan, you are
still going to remain in USA.
What is it really about Kashmir that bothers you?
If India becomes a Muslim country, will you root
for either Kashmir's merger with Pakistan or
Independent Kashmir?

Re: # 424 Mr.Stuka.....You may not like me as many of distractore who call me names as "mad" etc. But my request sincerely to not get personal with Prf. R.Haq or any body. Some times it is better to say nothing than create hatred.
I will agree with many he has crossed lines gentle behaviour. Some times he is making mistake of dehumanizing opponents which many indins are also doing. If we do not like somebody it is better to walk away. Most educated people make mistake of over reading and over stretching and massaging and drawing swift conclusions which are already drawn and they write same. Educated people develop arrogency and become proud of their knowledge= which is information. While half educated person like me we are not sure as we have no most information. There is tendency to "quote" some body . We are still mental slaves in many way some body says it is in holy roman script english and return by white person is truth. Look at all postings and observe that, they do not post of locals as locals are suspect. I personally get upset and angree about it.
This newspaper should really cut people when they start putting redigested same stuff as original. I second masadi in this matter as he redicules copied stuff.
I feel you can think of getting mild and nt getting personal. Your friend had great loss but look here in city 32 people are slaughtered including 11 today. If look outside there 4 million refugees , 99% are innocent and have lost dear once, their possessions, house, cattle are systematically destroyed by Helicopter Gun ships and F-16 as usual given by American thugs to make others die. My rough estimate is about 30,000 people may be killed after new president came in power. How you know Prof. R.Haq is not affected. Many pakistanis are visited by misery ( many times more than Bombay attack ) I know many people who have lost their children , wives, brothers in going carnage for last year of so. So please be bearing knowing last 60 years mind poisoning is going on fortified by Indian direct involment in breaking country in Half. So most habitually think India is involved. They may be involved but not 200% as govt says. We are not going through easy time like india. People are frustrated , depressed and ANXIOUS what is in Future. So people are on edge so please be kind and just like your friend may 50 to 60 times more people are affected and prof. R.Haq may be affected.
I request you to be polite and do nt get personal.
Good luck and good day.

Re: # 426

anil mian,

...... you are wrong ... most pakis, including the good the bad and the ugly, agree with riaz sahib .... we just don't think it is worth the effort to argue with the horrible hindoos who just can't get over their pathological hatred for pakistan ....... as much as i try, i cannot understand why you guys behave the way that you do ..... the only explanation that i can think of is that you hate us because we are better looking and we refuse to pay homage like nepal or bhutan ...... personally, since i am not a big fan of bollywood, i wouldn't pay any attention to india if it was not occupying kashmir, setting off bombs in lahore and supplying arms to the taliban .....

riaz sahib zindabad!
hindustan murdabad!

Riaz sahib:

With all due respect to you and your views, over the last few days I had a chance to read your views until I got overloaded.

I felt that you are a proof for TNT that Jinnah wanted and got it, if it was ever needed by generation of grandkids of partition. Muslim Indians that I have met and worked (and I have done that a few of them right from Chairman of IDBI – Industrial Development Bank of India, later Chairman of SEBI (India’s SEC) to engineers whom I hired and mentored, I have never seen this level of hatred and manipulation. Whatever may be your reasons for your hatred, you know them best. You indeed have one more believer of TNT. For one thing I am certain that your Allah has given you the same numbers of 24 hours in a day that Bhagwan, God and others have given to others. It is how we all use is what we become (pauper to president).

Your level of intolerance is no less than those of right wing Indians. I found your exchange with the poster from Bangladesh to all Indians very enlightening. I used to think most Pakistanis think like Echoboom, Zeemax, Cliftonbridge, Scout, and Tahmed sahib, and therefore easier to reason and talk.

Now I do wonder, if most Pakistanis think like you or you are an exception.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Riaz Genius: My professional colleague lost his wife and two sons because of Pakistani bastards. I really must go and ask him why he does not like you too much. You people commit terrorism in India, bomb blasts in the stock exchange and in movie theatres and hotels, then give refuge to Dawood Ibrahim and assorted jihadi groups, then you act all surprised that you are not very well liked. It's not just the Indians. No one really like Pakistan. We are only the honest ones to tell it to your face. Even the Chinese btw, they want Pakistan as an ally but they don't really respect your country too much/ Tell me what there is to like in a Jihadi melting pot and exporter or terror? Besides, we could accept those Kaaley Bangali living independently, we can accept you as an indepependent country as well. But not as long as you guys remain a Jihad factory.

Re: # 420
arif and banjara,

I agree with both of you. You have effectively presented the case for and against the ongoing battle on Chowk, with me as a single individual pitted against a much larger, highly organized and abusive group of Indians, who use the dinosaur logic. While I do hear some voices of reason from the much smaller Pakistani side, the message from the other side has grown more and more personally abusive and vociferous. And I really wish it weren't the case.

Having lived overseas, studied and visited both India and Pakistan over decades now, I find that the two nations have a lot in common...in fact what joins them is not just the geography, but a lot common history and heritage that spawned the common Indo-persian culture with significant contribution from both Hindus and Muslims.

However, there has been a great deal of animosity promoted on both sides by radicals because of the failure to address the underlying issues that divide us. Though I don't always agree with Hoodbhoy, he made a video about the festering Kashmir issue that has dramatically contributed to hostility on both sides. I posted it as an ilog at http://www.chowk.com/ilogs/71912/48173

While the video presents a balanced picture in apportioning blame, it is clear from it that India, the larger of the two players, has failed to deliver on its solemn promises to the people of Kashmir and the world. India has also failed to show any political or moral leadership toward resolving the crisis, in spite of significant flexibility shown by Pakistan in the last decade.

Besides Kashmir, which I think is the root cause used by both sides for radicalization, I have personally seen the extreme animosity and outright hatred of Pakistan displayed by most Indians on almost all forums overseas, whether it is radio, tv, internet, journals etc. The only exception I have seen is FOSA (Friends of South Asia) that brings the anti-war liberals together from both sides. I do hope they grow in strength, but they are really like a drop in the ocean at the moment after many years of existence.

One of the favorite liberal call-in radio talk shows I often listen to is Talk of the Nation on NPR. Every time, there is India-Pak discussion, the phone lines are overwhelmed by Indian callers, each demanding that India and US should essentially put an end to Pakistan by applying all kinds of sanctions and launching all massive military strikes against their neighbor. I see the same thing on the Internet, where Indians use their numerical superiority to overwhelm the medium with hateful messages against Pakistan and Pakistanis.

In an ideal world, you'd expect the bigger of the two players to show more tolerance and magnanimity in the relationship. But, alas, that is not the case between India and Pakistan.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Yaar, somebody should put these Pakistanis out of their misery, somehow should convice them India has accepted
Pakistan. Pakistanis are still desperate for India's acceptance after 60+ years, unbelievable.
Big brother has to do something do make little broter
feel secure.

Re: # 420 arif sb,
u and i may know that the love-hate relationship would last a long time; the problem is that indians - though they may know it deep down in their hearts - have never accepted it since 1947. first nehru gave it six months to last. sixty two years later every dhoti-clad chamar in india gets up in the morning expecting pakistan to go down by the end of the day.

i would not be surprised if the consuming hatred of a lot of indian posters here is simply due to the fact that - in spite o their fervent hatred - pakistan won't give up the ghost.

heck, they can't even put down a lone pak fighter on this board having been reduced to nothing but insults and name calling. soon we shall be witnessing the classic kosna and kilkilana of raand destitute village folks a la "bahgwaan karay teray jism mein keerday parein kambakhat ...".

just u watch :-).

Re: # 415

Riaz Sahib

India and Pakistan are neighbors, not very friendly but yet conjoined by geography and history. Sincere advice, take a break, these two neighbors cannot change their location and this love hate relationship is here to stay for a long long time.

Riaz, Dalrymple LOVES India and Indians.

You HATE India and Indians.

He would feel nauseous to be in the presence of someone who says this about the people and land he has spent the best years of his life living in and writing about:

+++++

"I think it stems from the low self-esteem they suffer after long spells of foreign rulers, absence of brain development from widespread malnutrition, low quality of general education, and their mainstream Bollywood entertainment that shapes their personas and usually symbolizes extreme vulgarity"

+++++

I mean Riaz, do you understand this? Dalrymple would find you repulsive.

For India's Dalrymple lovers/scholars on Chowk, read he following from Dalrymple and see how he exposes your lies:

Amid all the hoopla surrounding the 60th anniversary of Indian independence, almost nothing has been heard from Pakistan, which turns 60 today. Nothing, that is, if you discount the low rumble of suicide bombings, the noise of automatic weapons storming the Red Mosque and the creak of slowly collapsing dictatorships.

In the world's media, never has the contrast between the two countries appeared so stark: one is widely perceived as the next great superpower; the other written off as a failed state, a world centre of Islamic radicalism, the hiding place of Osama bin Laden and the only US ally that Washington appears ready to bomb.

On the ground, of course, the reality is different and first-time visitors to Pakistan are almost always surprised by the country's visible prosperity. There is far less poverty on show in Pakistan than in India, fewer beggars, and much less desperation. In many ways the infrastructure of Pakistan is much more advanced: there are better roads and airports, and more reliable electricity. Middle-class Pakistani houses are often bigger and better appointed than their equivalents in India.

Moreover, the Pakistani economy is undergoing a construction and consumer boom similar to India's, with growth rates of 7%, and what is currently the fastest-rising stock market in Asia. You can see the effects everywhere: in new shopping centres and restaurant complexes, in the hoardings for the latest laptops and iPods, in the cranes and building sites, in the endless stores selling mobile phones: in 2003 the country had fewer than three million cellphone users; today there are almost 50 million.

Mohsin Hamid, author of the Booker long-listed novel The Reluctant Fundamentalist, wrote about this change after a recent visit: having lived abroad as a banker in New York and London, he returned home to find the country unrecognisable. He was particularly struck by "the incredible new world of media that had sprung up, a world of music videos, fashion programmes, independent news networks, cross-dressing talkshow hosts, religious debates, and stock-market analysis".

I knew, of course, that the government of Pervez Musharraf had opened the media to private operators. But I had not until then realised how profoundly things had changed. Not just television, but private radio stations and newspapers have also flourished in Pakistan over the past few years. The result is an unprecedented openness. Young people are speaking and dressing differently. Views both critical and supportive of the government are voiced with breathtaking frankness in an atmosphere remarkably lacking in censorship. Public space, the common area for culture and expression that had been so circumscribed in my childhood, has now been vastly expanded. The Vagina Monologues was recently performed on stage to standing ovations.

Little of this is reported in the western press, which prefers its sterotypes simple: India-successful; Pakistan-failure. Nevertheless, despite the economic boom, there are three serious problems that Pakistan will have to sort out if it is to continue to keep up with its giant neighbour - or indeed continue as a coherent state at all.

Source: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/aug/14/pakistan.india1
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

"I know Dalrymple loves India, but I also know that he abhors the right-wing Hindu nationalists"

++++

Riaz, he also hates racists like you who vomit the kind of rhetoric you've vomited out here about Indians. That's a fact. He loves India. You hate India.

You seem too cretinous to understand the difference, even in the middle of your red mist.

Re: # 412
I know Dalrymple loves India, but I also know that he abhors the right-wing Hindu nationalists.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide