Is TALIBANIZATION a New Phenomenon?

Re: # 413
Nothing energizes me more than to respond to the unpleasant sight of chattering Saffronites infesting Chowk, and lying about Pakistanis and Muslims.

Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 413 Posted by rf786 on June 7, 2009 9:36:26 am

rf bahi,

unkee sui atuck gayee hein. aur hamid mian is purposely egging him on. I think we should ask chowk staff to ban this interactor for a few days for his own good, and also we can get some rest from his opinions.

As soon as I see so many interacts from this one nick, I just run away from chowk. ein sahib kay opinionoun say mera monitor bhee ghabra gaya hein.

array bhai, chowk wallay kisee kee bhee baat nahin suntay hein. kiya musibut naazil houwee hein hum par.

Riaz Haq Sahib

With all due respect, you should change your nick to "Energizer Bunny" that keeps going and going.....

"I think it stems from the low self-esteem they suffer after long spells of foreign rulers, absence of brain development from widespread malnutrition, low quality of general education, and their mainstream Bollywood entertainment that shapes their personas and usually symbolizes extreme vulgarity"

+++++++++

Dude, you do know that William Dalrymple, who lives in and loves India, would probably walk out of the room if he heard you say that? Why do you namedrop someone who is the polar opposite of the racist that you are? What an absurd man you are.

As for Dalrymple, I like some of his writing, some of it not so much. How he ended up being raised to the level of sainthood by racist internet Jihadi Riazul Haq, I don't know.

Re: # 408

Mr. Riaz-(Zia-ul)-Haq, I think you are one of the most stupid and ignorant Pakistanis I have ever encountered and on this site, that is an extreme distinction. I have read William Dalrymple and in his deepest of dreams, I doubt he would be comparing himself with a professional educator like Will Durant who took fifty years to write his book that earned him a Pulitzer prize.

I think you are a notch above Mantolives -- and that IS saying a lot!

If it is William, let it be Durant. If it is Dalrymple, let it be Theodore.

RiazHaq (PAW) #403

{{And how long has RSS been around? When did Hedgewar and Golwalkar live?}}

The RSS was founded in 1925. Hedgewar was apparently imprisoned in 1931. Golmalkar would have been 29 in 1935, when Will Durant (then 50, in his prime, and already well-known) published the first volume of The Story of Civilization, with the writings on India. Nice try changing the subject.

Far more likely than any RSS influence, is that Will Durant had read from the mass of historical literature on India and the Indian subcontinent easily available in the US at the time. By 1935 serious European scholarship on Indic civilization was already one and a half centuries old. Indic ideas, particularly Vedantic Hinduism, Buddhist, and Sanskrit literature, had fascinated several generations of scholarly occidentals. Yale University had a professor of Sanskrit (William Dwight Whitney) as early as 1854. The New England Transcendentalists (Thoreau, Emerson and the like) were strongly influenced by Vedanta. This is quite significant because Durant's earlier writing was on philosophy. Durant, like other intelligent and objective people, was perfectly capable of looking at the available evidence on Indian history and the opinions of other scholars from his own civilization, and drawing his own conclusions.

Re: # 406
And how long has RSS been around? When did Hedgewar and Golwalkar live? The RSS animosity toward India's Muslim did not start after partition, nor did its admiration for Hitler's genocide of Jews.

Only in the last few decades have the RSS switched their role models from Nazis to Zionists because of Israel's hatred and wanton killings of Muslims. Such Israeli brutality toward Muslims has now become a source of inspiration for Hindu nationalists, as they ponder emulating Israel in South Asia.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 405

Cowasjee is right. Karachi does have serious crime problem. So does the rest of the country.

But he does not put it in perspective. Let me do it for you.

There were 32,719 incidents (Nationmaster puts it at 37,170) of murder recorded in India in 2008, whereas there were 28,904 in Russia, 26,539 in Colombia, 21,995 in South Africa, 16,692 in the US, 13,829 in Mexico and 9,631 in Pakistan, the report compiled by National Crime Records Bureau and released by the India's Union Home Ministry, said.

Experts believe the actual crime rate in India (and probably Pakistan) is even higher with many cases going unreported.

Overall, five million cases of crime, including murder, rape and drug offenses, were reported in India in 2007-08, the report compiled by the National Crime Records Bureau (NCRB) and released by the Indian home ministry says.

It is interesting to note that Pakistan does not really live up (or down, depending on your perspective) to its undeserved reputation as an "unsafe country" when compared on the basis of real data and crime statistics. On the contrary, it appears to be about as safe as the United States or neighboring India. It is the high-profile Al-Qaeda and Taleban terrorist leaders, and the acts of violence they inspire, that contribute to Pakistan's image as an unsafe place. The Western and Pakistani media's pre-occupation with wall-to-wall reporting of such violence enhances the stature of the terrorists and serves their purposes by attracting misguided young men to their destructive cause.

Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

RiazHaq (PAW) #403

{{Your ignorance on the subject is breathtaking. Just go look up how the two are seen by the world. Durant is a relative unknown, Dalrymple is highly regarded in India, Pakistan and the rest of the world.}}

Will and Ariel Durant were the authors of, among other books, the extremely well-known 11-volume The Story of Civilization. While numbers are no sure criterion of worth, the Durants' books sold millions of copies. I'll wager that literate Americans (the kind that actually read books) are far, far more likely to have read, or at least heard of, the Durants than William Dalrymple. The latter, himself a would-be latter-day white Munghol, is a niche interest for Munghol-fanciers. By calling Will Durant a relative unknown, Mr. Haq has only showcased his own ignorance.

RiazHaq (PAW) #400

{{It seems Durant has fallen victim to the right wing Hindu attempts at revisionist history since the creation by Golwalker of the RSS Hindu fascist organization.}}

Will Durant's Our Oriental Heritage (the first of eleven volumes of The Story of Civilization), which contains his writing on India, was apparently published in 1935. Yeah, I suppose he was an early dupe of 'right wing Hindu revisionism'.

pakis will brew in their own stew...

The cause of law and order was not furthered by the Objectives Resolution which was proposed by Jinnah’s successor, his one time right-hand man, Prime Minister Liaquat Ali Khan, six months after his death, and passed by the constituent assembly. It was an incitement to intolerance, and as we know intolerance leads to violence, and violence which through lack of will cannot be controlled negates law and order. This country over the years has not simply been subjected to criminality emanating from all levels of society, the highest to the lowest, but with massive religious intolerance which has led to unending sectarian strife and finally to the Taliban and their territorial plans.

Karachi is no stranger to the absence of law and order, much of it politically inspired. None of our political parties have ever inserted the issue of law and order in their list of priorities — it has always been a non-starter. As an illustration of the absence and of the involvement of politics in that absence, let us just take the headlines on one day as were printed on the front page of the Metropolitan section of this newspaper — on June 5, last Friday. ‘PPP man kidnapped, killed’, ‘Two MQM activists shot dead’, ‘JI activist killed in Surjani’, ‘Two Haqiqi workers gunned down’. A broad coverage of the political spectrum, would one not say?

http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/the-newspa per/columnists/16-ardeshir-cowasjee-karachi-law-and-order-769-hs-04

And some people call me a name-dropper. As an amateur, I have to bow before a master. Note the clever insinuation that one has met him several times, perhaps in more intimate circumstances.
#403 "The last time I met him, he was the guest of honor at a TIE charter member event in Si Valley."
That being said, there are a lot of historians who do not agree with much Dalrymple says, and many of them are self styled 'secular' Indian historians.

Re: # 401
Your ignorance on the subject is breathtaking. Just go look up how the two are seen by the world. Durant is a relative unknown, Dalrymple is highly regarded in India, Pakistan and the rest of the world. The last time I met him, he was the guest of honor at a TIE charter member event in Si Valley. The only people who didn't like him at the event were those right-wing Hindus who supported banning "Joda Akbar", the hot topic at the time in India.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 391
If you honestly believe Pakistan is dead, why do you keep talking about it? Why are you always behaving like Wile E. Coyote to try and get the Roadrunner called "Pakistan" for over 60 years?

It seems to me that your hateful mind and your wishful thinking have completely paralyzed your ability to assess the situation correctly and think logically.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

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Re: # 396
It seems Durant has fallen victim to the right wing Hindu attempts at revisionist history since the creation by Golwalker of the RSS Hindu fascist organization. Your admiration for him clearly stems from the fact that he has bought the RSS line.

Here's how William Dalrymple, an authentic historian of India, describes it:

The roots of the current conflict can be traced back to two rival conceptions of Indian history that began diverge in the 1930’s, during the freedom struggle against the British Raj. While the Indian Congress Party, led by Mahatma Gandhi and Jawaharlal Nehru, tended to emphasise national unity and sought to minimise historical differences between Hindus and Muslims in order to form a united front against the British, a rather different line was taken by India’s more extreme Hindu nationalists, some of whom formed a neo-Fascist paramilitary organisation, the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (or RSS), the Association of National Volunteers.

Like the Phalange in Lebanon, the RSS, was founded in direct imitation of European Fascist movements. Like its 1930's models, it still makes much of daily parading in khaki drill and the giving of militaristic salutes (the RSS salute differs from that of the Nazis only in the angle of the forearm, which is held horizontally over the chest). The idea is to create a corps of dedicated paramilitary zealots who will bring about a revival of what the RSS see the lost Hindu golden age of national strength and purity. The BJP, the Hindu nationalist party which ruled India from 1999 until this May, was founded as the political wing of the RSS, and most senior BJP figures hold posts in both organisations. Though the BJP is certainly much more moderate than the RSS- like the Likud in Israel, the BJP is a party which embraces a wide spectrum of right-wing opinion, ranging from mildly conservative free marketeers to raving ultra-nationalists- both organisations believe, as the centrepiece of their ideology, that India is in essence a Hindu nation and that the minorities may live in India only if they acknowledge this.

Madhav Golwalkar, the early RSS leader still known simply as 'the Guru' was the man who formulated what later became the official RSS/BJP position on Indian history. He broke with conventional Indian views -- and the consensus of scholars -- in two ways. One was in his understanding of Indian prehistory. Most archaeologists, then as now, took the view that India had been settled in the course of the second millennium BC by a group of peoples who spoke Indo-European -- or Aryan -- languages, and who arrived in India in an Eastwards migration from the Middle East. Golwalkar disagreed. He believed that Hindus were indigenous to India- in contrast to India’s Muslims who invaded India and still looked to Mecca as the focus of their faith. As he wrote in We, or Our Nationhood Defined: “The Hindus came into this land from nowhere, but are indigenous children of the soil always, from times immemorial�.

It is also strange to see the admiration of Israel among the Hindu right-wing, in sharp contrast to Golwalker's support for Hilter and his genocide of Jews. Again, this is how Dalrypmle describes it:

Golwalkar looked for inspiration to the Nazi thinkers of 1930’s Germany. He believed an independent India should emulate Hitler's treatment of religious minorities, which he thoroughly approved of: "To keep up the purity of the Race and its culture, Germany shocked the world by her purging of its Semitic Race, the Jews," he wrote admiringly in We soon after Kristallnacht. "Race pride at its highest has been manifested there. Germany has also shown how well-nigh impossible it is for Races and cultures having differences going to the root to be assimilated into one united whole, a good lesson for us in Hindusthan to learn and profit by... The foreign races in Hindusthan [ie the Muslims] must adopt the Hindu culture and language, must learn to respect and hold in reverence the Hindu religion, must entertain no ideas but those of glorification of the Hindu race and culture[… and] may [only] stay in the country wholly subordinated to the Hindu nation, claiming nothing -- not even citizen’s rights."

During Partition in 1947, the RSS was responsible for many horrifying atrocities against India's Muslims, and it was a former RSS swayamsevak, Nathuram Godse, who assassinated Mahatma Gandhi for (in RSS eyes) “pandering� to the Muslims. In the aftermath of this, Nehru decided to deal with the threat he believed the Hindu Nationalists posed to the nation and denounced the RSS as a “private army which is proceeding on Nazi lines.�

Source: http://74.125.155.132/search?q=cache:AbdXlWxtwkgJ:www.columbia.edu/itc/mealac/pr itchett/00generallinks/txt_dalrymple_review.doc+Dalrymple+Muslim+India+tolerance &cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a


Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide