Is TALIBANIZATION a New Phenomenon?

#496 RiazHaq:

Don't believe Fareed Zakaria. He is India-born Muslim apostate and Jew-lover who likes to beat Pakistan to gain acceptability in the Americal political class. Kamath

Re: # 496 My hope is that India can become a beacon of hope for Pakistanis and others in the region by doing the right things for the vast majority of its people

Why should Indian be the beacon? (has India taken thekka for this!) Why cannot Pakistan be the "real beacon" of light? Afterall, it was formed because Muslims cannot live with the horrible, dirty, superstitious hindus, who do not have notions of justice, equality, fairplay in their genes.

Where I stand, I see that this is a role Pakistan should play, and it is eminently suited for this(T)

Re: # 474 Riaz says "Golwalkar's history is not only surviving, it is thriving in the Sangh Parivar that ruled India for a while and still rules many states such as Gujarat and Karntaka".

Riaz - You know more about Golwalkar, than most of the Indians. That makes you the rightful inheritor of Golwalkar.

BTW Gujrat is one of the most prosperous states of India and closely followed by Karnataka with Bangalore as the IT hub of India/world. That should make you rethink about the statements you made.

Posting on behalf of Masadi sahib who has again been illegally detained by chowkstaff.

Chowk staff have illegally detained me now three days, blocked me from opening new accounts, shut down all my other accounts, subjected me to chowk boarding and thrown the key away- please inform friends and enemies...

Regards

Re: # 496 Riaz...You are a changed man, your response are very positive and very different from the 100s of the past response in the past couple of weeks.

Your statement about India becoming hope/becon for Pakistanis is a big surprise to the extent of flaterring.

I have observed that the Pakis are extremists (do not get offended at it or mix it with terrorism at all). I mean they go from one extreme to another in no time, that it be comes difficult to understand or believe them.

1. The same Musharaff who planned Kargil, claims to be a "Man FOR Peace".
2. A few days back on this same thread there was one comment about "India arming the Talibans", when everyone knows that the Talibans were groomed as "strategic assets/depth" for use against India.
3. A few months back there were 2-3 articles talking about how TNT / 1947 was a mistake and the current problems of Talibanization, poverty, IMF loan default etc. facing in Pakistan would not have happened, if Pak would have been part of united India, etc. etc.

#502 Posted by Goldfinger

"You say: “Pakistan's history is steeped with lies, deception & subterfuge.�…Pakistanis say vice versa regarding India."

Well, that is another lie by Pakistan. Pakistanis rarely speak truth.

When Kargil happened, they said jihadis did it
When 26/11 happened, they said Kasab was not a Pakistani.
When Taliban was created, they said they did not do it.

They accept it only when incontrovertible evidences are thrown at their face.

#504 Posted by SPY

Further, just imagine the condition of any Government that has to feed those people who multiply copiously just in the belief that the risq (ration) is given by Allah. Where has that money to come from? Government money is common man's tax money. Expect to rob Peter to pay Paul?

Re: # 495 Goldfinger...All your statements are such that they cannot be refuted/opposed by any right thinking person in an ideal situation, and universally applicable be it India or Pak.

But there is the catch, the reality is very much different from the idealism that you talk. When even within a family you cannot force a brother doing very good/rich to fully share with other members, how do expect that sharing to happen at a society or national level. While there are a lot of poor indians that need help for basics such as food, health, education etc. there is also a lerge number of indians who the best in their field at the world level and they cannot be prevented from pursuing their dreams for setting up Infosys, Wipros, Reliance etc.

Your views could have been easily implemented in a small country like Singapore, Taiwan or a country like China, but not in a democratic country like India.

the longer they keep kasaab smiling in court, the more poison & hatred it will spread, why not just hang him & get it over with !!! they got him on tape, he has confessed too so what else you need? enough of this BS already.

ok we know from reports how he died but why am I hearing from my indians friends that the death of Hemant Karkare was a conciperacy & was planned by the radical hindu groups who he had blamed for the 2008 Malegoan blasts? why this refute?

Re: # 463

coolAl,

while in part you can peruse my responses to Shankar and spy, as for your gripe on, “India has poverty and hunger. How is that Pakistan's business? How is that relevant to a discussion between India and Pakistan? Who gives a rats ass if India is shining or not? That will be determined by the people of India. They have the means to dump a government if they don't like it and they will exercise their right,�...well it’s not that…it’s just that Indians do the same, but become angry when others do it to them.
You say: “Pakistan's history is steeped with lies, deception & subterfuge.�…Pakistanis say vice versa regarding India.
You say: “They openly practice religious bigotary. It is enshrined in their constitution. What is more -- it is very proud of it. They are also openly racist.�…Pakistanis say its Indians who do so, quoting the examples of Gujrat, Ayodhya etc.
You say: “The general public in India -- that includes a LOT of muslims -- do not trust Pakistan or its intents.� Pakistanis say the other way around. And so on and so forth. You see, every time you point a finger at someone, three of your own fingers point at your own self. In short lets admit that terrible problems exist, both for Pakistan and India, and these ought to be tackled appropriately rather than to score points against each other.

We are just ordinary people who want to live life to the fullest.

Not believing in a vulgar mindset of considering this life as some sort of a trial or test for attaining membership to the arabiasn club in the after life!!

#498 Posted by laddu

And stop sending more Kasabs to India.

Israel is not moving nor is Kashmir.

#494 Posted by Goldfinger

" a lot of Indians are resorting to calling him names…just because they do not have answers to the data he is presenting…."

A pot should not call the kettle black!

In a discussion of taliban phenomenon, Indian railtrack squatters are not going to offer any solutions.

The characteristic attitude of the Pakistanis is that they first indulge in attacking others tooth and nail and when the others retaliate, call themselves the victims.

Pakistan created taliban and now cry from the rooftop that they are the victims of terror.

Re: # 496

Now , you want indians to be "hope" and "beacon" for others!!

sorry, we do not have any illusions of grandeaur , of being "light" to some group!

We reject leadership of any sort.

Just leave us alone and stop this vular jehad of yours.

dismantle all those lashkar-e-nonsense and mujahideen-e-pakistan and those rasool-e-paak-pissitan.

We do not want to show light to any one.

Please live in your shariah land , eating khajurs and learning arab.

we have nothing to do with you- just stop even thinking about us!!!

#492 Posted by laddu

"He needs to be tapped by the FBI becuase he can provide vital clues to the world wide web of islami terror and their handlers"

Alternatively, he can join hands with Zaid Ahmed, the so called defence analyst of Pakistan to form a formidable team of jokers. This may help riaz to relieve his pressure to a great extent.

Re: # 495
Goldfinger,
I do hope sincerely that my words encourage and energize the new generation of Indians (not the septos and octos in charge of the government) to dedicate themselves to improving the human resources of India, the most important of all resources India possesses.

No nation has ever achieved greatness by leaving the majority of its people behind.

My hope is that India can become a beacon of hope for Pakistanis and others in the region by doing the right things for the vast majority of its people.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 461

SPY,

Only if we think in a positive spirit can problems be solved…what good are all the richest people of India or the merely rich of Pakistan, to the countless poverty stricken, problem riddled masses of both the countries? What good are all the great fortune 500 companies if within the same country the dispossessed are daily dying of thirst, hunger, strife and easily curable disease? While bombs, rockets and space exploration may be some sort of scientific achievement, what good is it if the same money that is spent on all of this is needed more by the masses of the country?

Re: # 458

shankar,

it’s good to know that we agree on the premise that both India and Pakistan are possessed by some horrific evils, which have to be sorted out before either could be called a great place to live in for its inhabitants…as for your problem with Riaz that he is spinning data to prove Pakistan is better than India...well I’m sure he’s doing this (often from sources, like the UN etc) in response to the many times more Indians who have been on a campaign on chowk and everywhere else to say a lot worse about Pakistan and the religion the majority of its people believe in…maybe he is calling people Nazis & bigots because he probably feels that a lot of them are pushing skewed, racist agendas…while at the same time a lot of Indians are resorting to calling him names…just because they do not have answers to the data he is presenting….

Re: # 490 He got on my nerves :)

Riaz ul Haq is a product of Zia's regime and benefitted the most from the Army's coups.

He needs to be tapped by the FBI becuase he can provide vital clues to the world wide web of islami terror and their handlers.

Re: # 488

Riaz Mian,

You got it wrong. Modi and his cohorts killed about 10,000 muslims in Gujrat. Any commentary on the 50,000 Muslims that have been killed in Swat by other Muslim?

And why do you think the Gujrat progam against Muslims started?

Fareed Zakaria was in Flint Center a couple of months ago. Did you go listen to him speak? I doubt if you have even read his book. He doesnt quite claim that. If you still claim that is what he writes, I might have to change my opinion of you and call you uneducated. All Fareed talks about is potential and not a state de jure.

C'maan Pew,

that was completely uncalled for..

Re: # 488 Riaz

We all love our shining India. Now go F yourself!

I can see the bigots are unhappy from anything that shows them the sad reality of "Shining India". When they can't offer any cogent arguments, they get personal and abusive.

Clearly, they prefer the false image of India portrayed by Fareed Zakaria and other spinmeisters like him. In his book, The Post-American World, he describes India as a "powerful package" and claims it has been "peaceful, stable, and prosperous" since 1997 - a decade in which India and Pakistan came close to nuclear war, tens of thousands of Indian farmers took their own lives, Maoist insurgencies erupted across large parts of the country, and Hindu nationalists in Gujarat murdered more than 2,000 Muslims.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

gianijee, i am sure riaj does some thing else other than counting the stray cows in dilli..this is just chowk. his postings here dont take a whole lot of time or complex research..heck there are websites which collate this kinda india-specific data (e.g. there used to be dalitistan).

Pew, to clarify, it takes quite an effort for an educated person to consistently prove that he is an idiot. Such effort is definitely worthy of admiration. :)

Re: # 482, 483 and 484

Pew, yes i admire him. He is doing more harm to himself that everybody else put together. And, he is obviously demonstratingly quite clearly that he is an ignoramus.

Dude, he could very well be retired (by choice or otherwise). So what if he is unemployed. Doesnt mean anything. Go by what he says.

Jang, None at all. I think Riaz is an educated pakistani and I feel sorry for him bcos instead of using his education to improve the lot of his people and country he is focussing his energy on deriding India and indians. Dont you feel sorry for him?

"Still he does not deserve the treatment meted out him. "
"but all that still does not justify him being abused.

I kinda find his posts funny and wonder why this educated Pakistani takes the route he takes in his posts.

Riaz sahib, sometimes i do feel sorry for you. I hope not all educated Pakistanis are like you."

oye giani..do you see any contraditions?

Re: # 482

And (c) Someone who is unemployed?

Re: # 481 Giani

You admire someone who is (a) rigid, and (b) uses statistics in an obviously misleading manner?

I humbly request that this abuse of Riaz Haq must stop. Just because he is caught in this vortex of delusions of granduer, does not give anybody the right to abuse him.

Riaz Haq does illustrate some truths about the state of affairs in Inda. This should be appreciated. I suspect that he is an offspring of Mohajirs, who have this warpped sense of effort of constantly having to justify the actions of their forefathers in demanding a separate country.

Still he does not deserve the treatment meted out him. I admire him for the following.

1. He posts under his name - he is not trying to hide.
2. He is rigid in his views - No amount of reason works
3. He is resourceful - he does his research and prints gross numbers instead of per capita ones bcos that what makes his case.

but all that still does not justify him being abused.

I kinda find his posts funny and wonder why this educated Pakistani takes the route he takes in his posts.

Riaz sahib, sometimes i do feel sorry for you. I hope not all educated Pakistanis are like you.

and this...

...Christian leaders in Pakistan have come out strongly against the imposition of ‘Jizya, or the Islamic tax’ on Christians and other non-Muslims in Khyber Agency in Federally Administered Tribal Areas (FATA) on the border with Afghanistan...Dr. Nazir S Bhatti, Chief of Pakistan Christian Congress PCC has urged government of Pakistan to take notice of collection of Jizia from Christians, Sikhs and Hindus in Khyber Agency...

http://www.christianpost.com/article/20090608/pakistan-christia n-leaders-call-for-an-end-to-islamic-tax/index.html

and this from the last story:

...In fact, to tell you honestly, health is not our national priority. It is very unfortunate,’ says Dr Arshad Khan, the health ministry's top man in Mardan

Riaz:

Worry about this:

Health care in Pakistan crumbles under refugee burden

http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/news /pakistan/04-health-care-crumbles-under-refugee-burden-qs-01

Re: # 477

Riaz - Are you unemployed?

Re: # 475
First, it is absolutely ridiculous to compare India or Pakistan with US or Mexico. In fact, by all indications and rankings, Mexico is far ahead of both India and Pakistan.

Second, just look at how different nations are making progress toward meeting the fairly modest Millennium Dev Goals (MDGs), based on HPI:

In spite of all the hype about Shining India, Here's how India ranks relative to the neighborhood:

China 31, Sri Lanks 38, Pakistan 45, Nepal 58, India 62, Bangladesh 67.

"Shining India" ranks alongside such "models of success" as Ghana, Ethiopia, Namibia, Lesotho, Mozambique, Rwanda, etc.

Source: http://motherchildnutrition.org/resources/pdf/mcn-how-are-we-doing.pdf

Let's face it: Human development is not a priority in South Asia, particularly in India and Bangladesh.

“A number of countries in south Asia decide to invest in the military and not to increase investment in their people.� said Daniel Toole, Unicef’s regional director “Budgetary allocations can be more than 10 per cent in the military, while education is only 2 per cent.�
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 473

You have just exposed your own deep-seated bigotry against your fellow Muslim citizens of India by making a blanket statement that "the majority of crimes were committed by muslims".

Beyond exposing your personal hatred, your statement also explains the following:

1. B Raman, a hawkish security analyst, was moved after the attacks on Muslims, and blamed on Muslims, to describe as the "inherent unfairness of the Indian criminal justice system".

2. While making up 11% of the population, Muslims account for 40% of India’s prison population.

3. Large numbers of Muslims in various parts of India continue to languish in jails on trumped-up terror charges, suffering brutal torture as well as routine insults to their religion by police officials. Meanwhile, Hindu terrorists, often in league with the police and the state machinery, are allowed to run riot, unleashing violence and bloodshed on a frightening scale, while the state, the police and the courts take no firm action against them.

4. The names of the politicians, businessmen, officials and policemen who colluded in the anti-Muslim pogrom in Gujarat in 2002 are widely known. Some of them were caught on video, in a sting carried out last year by the weekly magazine Tehelka, proudly recalling how they murdered and raped Muslims. But, as Amnesty International pointed out in a recent report, justice continues to evade most victims and survivors of the violence. Tens of thousands still languish in refugee camps, too afraid to return to their homes.


Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 474 Posted by RiazHaq on June 8, 2009 7:29:40 am

Riaz Haq sahib,

You claim that

{While Pakistan is somewhat better (not a lot better) than India, its record of taking care of its people is also not good and its policies need to be fixed.}

Can you quantify this notion as to how much better puristan is in relation to india? Would you say 5% better?!

This is where paki khopris can not get it. Smaller countries by their very nature of smallness and nimbleness should be "hugely" better than their bigger neighbors.

For example, seedhee khopri walley Mexicans could not claim that Mexico is better than the US.

Re: # 471
Golwalkar's history is not only surviving, it is thriving in the Sangh Parivar that ruled India for a while and still rules many states such as Gujarat and Karntaka. You should check your facts.

The Golwalkar legacy is the biggest blot on India's weak and floundering secular democracy that allows criminals and thugs, 153 of them just got elected to Lok Sabha, to "grace" the halls of power. The Indian democracy allows regular pogroms against minorities (Gujarat ad Orissa recently), 2 million child deaths a year from hunger and malnutrition, one of the poorest sanitation systems in the world (even worse than Afghanistan and Bangladesh).

India is nation in great human misery, unable to cope with ongoing humanitarian disasters (even without a real"crisis" at the moment), it regularly shows up at the bottom of the rankings of nations for basic human progress.

Instead of defending such a terrible record, you should be trying to figure out how to improve it, for the sake of the vast majority of Indians suffering great deprivation.

While Pakistan is somewhat better (not a lot better) than India, its record of taking care of its people is also not good and its policies need to be fixed. To begin with, Pakistan should try and get India and the world to resolve issues of Kashmir, Afghanistan, etc. to spend much less on defense and more on its people in need.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

#407 Posted by RiazHaq

"Overall, five million cases of crime, including murder, rape and drug offenses, were reported in India in 2007-08,"

Good job. Please refine your search. You will soon understand that the majority of crimes were committed by muslims.

#397 Posted by RiazHaq

This is your last straw. Now you don't even remember that pakistan was created after all the events mentioned in your third para was suffered by the united India.

Less you speak about the parliament, the better it is. You are not well versed with democracy.

Riaz,

Golwalkar is history. Pakistanis know more about
Golwalkar and Manu Smruti and their utterances than
Indians do.

#374 Posted by RiazHaq

"Wishful, delusional thinking about Pakistan's end of days? Is this delusion induced by pangs of hunger and starvation?"

You deserve some rest

#373 Posted by RiazHaq

"Pakistanis eat grass? Beg your pardon?"

Looks like you have lost your senses. Now you will not remember who Zulfiqar ali bhutto is. You are finished.

#372 Posted by RiazHaq

You are trying to fool yourself by deflecting discussions from the issue.

Pakistan is on the verge of collapse because it is not able to service its debts. For servicing its debts and further to feed its generals and influential ones, it takes further debts, knowing fully well that it is not in a condition to repay them. And then stupids like you stand up to equate your country with a great country like India who have never defaulted on repayments.

Re: # 465 jang, you are an extremely mean person.

ooops..its pak alumni worldwide..my mistake. i thought its related to an aluminum industry like the alcoa.

sincere apologies.

dear riaj haq pak aluminum worldwide

you have really shown the hindoo the mirror..indeed a labor of sisyphus, nonetheless

you are being unfairly hounded here on the front page. you should come to he UP where the interactors are far less rabid and will be respectful of your scholarship.

to get there, click on the tab unplugged and then off the wall topics. hope to see you in more nurturing and constructive environment.

jang

Re: # 453
gold...
Every country faces problems, but Pakistan is also "the biggest problem" or better to say "cause of migraine of civilised world"...So, Indians will prefer to have Pakistan somewhere else, preferably in the arab deserts...I hope, your beduin moon god,allah, help you to relocate to holy place, closer to Saudi Arabia, Iran, Iraq, Palestine, Turkey and that will solve 99% of India's problems...rest of it can be easily handled by people of this 3000 year old civilization....

Goldfinger,

India has poverty and hunger. How is that Pakistan's business? How is that relevant to a discussion between India and Pakistan? Who gives a rats ass if India is shining or not? That will be determined by the people of India. They have the means to dump a government if they don't like it and they will exercise their right.

Who is this azzhole to dictate who people should vote for in Gujarat? Please ask him not to presume that he speaks for Indian Muslims. They are perfectly capable for speaking for themselves. The pigs who were hunted down in Mumbai are yet to be buried because Indian muslims will not allow them to be buried in Muslim graveyards.

Paksitan's history is steeped with lies, deception & subterfuge. They openly practice religious bigotary. It is enshrined in their constitution. What is more -- it is very proud of it. They are also openly racist. Riazzhole himself has spoken about how fair and well-fed Pakis are. Bangladesh happened because these punjabis could not let themselves be ruled by short, dark rice eating Bengalis in spite of the Bengalis contributing the major chunk of the GDP and also having the major chunk of the population. So they unleashed an army to systamtically exterminated millions of Bengalis and yet blame them for this. None of the genocidal army were brought to justice -- not a single hearing was held. Yet this shameless azzhole brushes it under the rug as if all they did was run a redlight. You probably have not read this thread fully. Please read it.

The general public in India -- that includes a LOT of muslims -- do not trust Pakistan or its intents. Now the rest of the world is coming to the same conclusion. Every terrorist attack on the planet has a link to Pakistan.

India does not have to do anything here. The aggressor has ALWAYS been Pakistan. India will continue in its development path with or without Pakistan. The ball is squarely in Pakistan's court. It has to pull itself up from its boot laces.

Therefore, India needs to just let nature take its course. No need to influence in anyway, be vigilant and just let things run their course. It is sad in a way but inevitable.

However, when they come for the uber pakis like Ri-azzhole, I will be cheering. You can count on it.

hamid mian,

americans have gone left, and europeans have gone right.

you voted for the leftist obama. so as a paki centric person where are you these days? what is your GHQ telling you? left, right, or somewhere in between?

Re: # 271 Goldfinger...your responses are in positive spirit and I agree to most of your points related to:

- "basically both the sub-continental nations are mired in monumental problems". Perfectly said. Both nations need to spend more on education and health rather than the arms race. But as long as the relations are treated as a zero sum game, it cannot happen. India spends lesser % of its GDP compared to Pak, despite knowing Pak's past of misadventures (Kargil, Parliament, Mumbai 26/11 etc.) and presence of China.

- "here are you all bunch of Indians acting as if you belong to some great international power". Do not agree. We have still a long way to go to become one.

- "India's natural competition ought to have been China". Perfectly said. We do try to match against the USA, China etc. although we are still far away in many ways. Indian manufacturing quality is better than the famed German, in the last decade.

- "I've visited India and have seen with my own eyes the appalling misery, poverty, corruption, illiteracy,....etc." You are right and nobody denies these do not exist in India. But India also has the richest Indians, many companies in Futune500, its own moon rocket/space department, best possible hospitals etc. India is such a vast and diverse country that any two opposing / contrasting statements can be true in India. Now obviously the rich would not share their wealth with the poor or the govt cannot give free food

Hamid mian,

why are you egging on this uninitiated paki? the ones that you consider are from the unwashed masses. wasn't that a code word of stupidity of the pakis.

Please stop getting to the same level with madani sahib. In his own peculiar and meandering way, madani sahib, at least comes across as somewhat sensible, whereas you come across as just .........{you fill in the blanks}

Re: # 448
You have doubts about Nazi-like RSS agenda?
Here is a quote from Golwalkar, the RSS founder, himself:

"To keep up the purity of the Race and its culture, Germany shocked the world by her purging the country of the semitic Races — the Jews. Race pride at its highest has been manifested here. Germany has also shown how well nigh impossible it is for Races and cultures, having differences going to the root, to be assimilated into one united whole, a good lesson for us in Hindusthan to learn and profit by."
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Goldfinger,

{{.the heart of the matter is that both India and Pakistan are blighted by multifarious problems...we can't say that India is now the shining example of a perfect heaven and problems remain only with Pakistan..}}

Agreed...& vice versa is also true...my objection to Riaz is that he is spinning data to prove Pakistan is better than India. If he only does that...I can uderstand.

Then he becomes abusive & calls people slaves, nazis & bigots. Haha--talk about projection!

#371 Posted by RiazHaq

I am sure quran teaches you to run with the hares and hunt with the hounds.

I am surprised to learn that whatever schemes or strategies Mohammed thought about as an ordinary and sometimes vindictive illiterate person(sometimes egged on by his followers, as in Medina) were snatched from Allah's mouth through double horned gins or angels, whatever, and imposed on illiterate masses as a permanent truth.

Irony of islam is you can do anything that pleases you quoting the verses from Quran and then, when things get too hot, just repudiate them saying the verses were referred to out of context and if necessary, dump anybody, including Osama and mulla omar who were considered the saviours of Islam not very long ago.

The case against india is - you need to act like big brother so that we can live like US/Canada. It's all your fault for this sorry state of affairs.

Well, India did act like big brother in 1947-1950. It declared itself secular rather than a hindu country. The result - 1/7th of its folks are muslims and many of them at highest levels of powerful positions. This does not however mean kashmir will be handed over on a silver platter to the little brother to make him smile.

US/Canada relationship? Can not happen until both countries have same core values and constitutional rights so that people can easily move around the border. Our "two brothers" DO NOT have same core values - secularism, attempt to move towards rule of law (not perfected yet even in india) rather than law of danda. We might have to wait 100 years or so until our dear little brother is fully democratic and secular.

Mr. Riazhaq
This is for your reading pleasure.

SWAMINOMICS
India is now flooded with $1 billion per week
Swaminathan S Anklesaria Aiyar


After six months of financial drought, global money is flooding into India at the rate of $1 billion a week. If sustained, this will be the mother of all financial stimuli, eclipsing the finance minister's budgetary endeavours.

The dollar flood is not due to the Congress election victory. In April, foreign institution investors (FIIs) poured $1.3 billion into Indian equities. They poured another $1.87 billion in the first half of May - before the election result. For May as a whole, the inflow was $4.14 billion, or a billion a week.

This is part of a global phenomenon. Since April, $20 billion has flooded into all emerging markets. The Sensex is up 50% in 2009. But Russia is also up 63%, China 57%, Brazil 60%, and Argentina 45%. So, the dollar flood is not India-specific: it is part of a global rush into all emerging markets, especially the BRICs (Brazil, Russia, India and China).

Till March, global markets were paralysed by fear. The global meltdown had brought down some of the world's biggest corporates - the top five investment banks, the biggest insurance company (AIG), the biggest bank (Citibank) and the biggest auto company (General Motors). Global investors fled into US gilts carrying almost zero interest, fearing that anything else was unsafe. FIIs pulled $12 billion out of India in 2008, and the biggest Indian corporates couldn't get global funding. Their profits and projects were hard hit.

But the darkest hour is before dawn. After hitting rock bottom in March, global investors finally sensed that governments across the world had, by pouring trillions into rescues, ensured that the crisis would not get worse. The pall of fear lifted. And investors started moving out of US gilts earning virtually no interest into investments with higher returns.

Now, economic conditions in the US, Europe and Japan remain grim. Despite rescues, their financial sectors remain stressed, as rising defaults in credit cards, realty and corporate loans add to the travails from the earlier housing bust. The IMF estimates negative to zero growth in these large economies till late 2010. But emerging markets, especially the four BRICs, are registering positive growth. India's quarterly GDP growth of 5.8% may look very weak compared to its earlier peak of 9%, but is nevertheless fabulous compared with zero or negative rates in the advanced economies. China has decelerated from 12% to 8%, but that remains the highest in the world.

So, with fear lifting, global billions are moving out of safe havens into growth havens. Risk premiums on all financial asset were sky-high in March but have now fallen sharply. So, global billions are moving into junk bonds, corporate debt, commodities, and emerging markets too. Idle money waiting to be invested adds up to at least $2 trillion, maybe much more. If just $100 billion of this goes into emerging markets, that will fuel huge stock market booms.

Sceptics say this is another bubble in the making, unjustified by current profits or any change in India's economic fundamentals. Now, foreign direct investment in factories is certainly better than FII inflows into stock markets. But the flood of $1 billion per week is not just speculative froth, it is actually improving our economic fundamentals.

Earlier, the economy was hit by a negative feedback loop. That is, stress in banks reduced credit to industries, which then suffered falling profits and loan defaults. These in turn worsened the balance sheets of banks, which then lent even less to industry, in a vicious downward spiral.

The new flood of $1 billion a week is changing the negative feedback loop into a positive one. Suddenly real estate companies that were almost insolvent and could not attract either loans or equity have been able to place almost $2 billion with qualified institutional investors.

If shady real estate companies can attract money, anybody can. Suddenly access to finance has become easier and cheaper. Improved finance means improved profits in industries, which means fewer loan defaults. This in turn means better balance sheets for banks, which will be able to lend more to industries, in a virtuous upward cycle.

Thus, a positive feedback loop is replacing the negative one. The bad news is that exporters will be hit by the appreciation of the rupee caused by the dollar flood. The dollar has gone from Rs 52.06 on March 20 to Rs 46.84 on June 4. Still, the positive feedback loop should lift India's GDP growth to 6-7% in 2009-10, up from earlier estimates of 5-6%. That is a substantial gain, though not revolutionary.
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After six months of financial drought, global money is flooding into India at the rate of $1 billion a week. If sustained, this will be the mother of all financial stimuli, eclipsing the finance minister's budgetary endeavours.

#453 by Goldfinger

Ideal would have been if both India and Pakistan could have lived side by side like say US and Canada...but probably that is asking for too much considering the terrible bigotry and hatred...and the responsibility for this lies with India more since it is the bigger neighbor and you guys have to make the first move for appeasement and diffusing of tensions if you wish.

Yaar GF, who decides that? If you say that since India is the bigger neighbor, we bear the responsibility for cooling down tensions, we could argue as a smaller neighbor, Pakistan should not try to provoke India time and again. And no, we do not wish for anything. We will continue to grow, even if slowly, regardless of Paki meddling. But you must remember just a couple of years into accusations (yep, they are just that) that India is aiding the Taliban and Pakistan is already crying hoarse that it is being destabilized by an "unfriendly neighbor".

Re: # 447

cool,

look here...whatever Riaz is producing...the heart of the matter is that both India and Pakistan are blighted by multifarious problems...we can't say that India is now the shining example of a perfect heaven and problems remain only with Pakistan...because we know what and how it is...and definitely a lot of hatred and bigotry drives a lot of your emotions...and if that is so there would certainly be a reaction from the other side as well. Ideal would have been if both India and Pakistan could have lived side by side like say US and Canada...but probably that is asking for too much considering the terrible bigotry and hatred...and the responsibility for this lies with India more since it is the bigger neighbor and you guys have to make the first move for appeasement and diffusing of tensions if you wish.

Re: # 446

Ok thanks for clarifying this...I thought probably it meant something very much worse...after all my language is different, you see :)

Hamid mian,

{{ i wouldn't pay any attention to india if it was not occupying kashmir, setting off bombs in lahore and supplying arms to the taliban .....}}

Where in the world do you have any evidence that India is setting bombs in Lahore & supplying arms to taliban??!!

because the Pak media & GoP says so? Gimme a break! Whenever a Paki farts, he blames the "sinister foreign hand" for giving him gas..

OTOH we (fortunately) caught Kasab alive & red handed--to the point that Pakistan had no choice but to admit he was Pakistani & the operation was planned in Pakistan....despite trying real hard to intimidate people in Faridkot not to talk.

But your feeling about not wanting to do anything with the neighbor across the border is mutual...if you guys don't nurture those "strategic assets" to attack the Indian parliament and citizens.

Also...I wonder if the bus tours from IOK to POK has led to mass migration of Indian Kashmiri slaves to Azaaad Kashmiri heaven? I guess if the poor IOKs were miserable with the horrible hindoos, they would be doing just that.

stuka,

What happened to you? You are one of the few Indians on Chowk who visited Pakistan, met a few Pakistani Chowkies & wrote very positive positive reports.

Lately, many of you posts suggest that you are really ticked off at them.

Re: # 427 hamidm2 says - "I wouldn't pay any attention to india if it was not ... supplying arms to the taliban".

What are you saying Hamid mian...The whole world knows and your Pak army admits that it has so assidously groomed, nurtured the Talibans as part of the famed "strategic depth" policy to be used against India. How can India supply arms to the Talibans.

Trying to claim victory after making a self-goal.

Re: # 439 Riaz says "as they defend the Nazi-like RSS agenda against the minorities in India, and support Modi and company's butchery, while demonizing Pakistanis and Muslims".

You are grossly mistaken as there are enough opponents (including me) to the RSS/Modi within India, but still they cannot be equated to the Nazi or the Pak terrorists. The RSS/Modi is an India internal matter and the law is catching up with them. Secondly they do not go about creating problems in Pak, as the Ajmal Kasabs and umpteen Pak sponsored terrorist groups in India.

Although I would personally not get involved at the ugly discussion happening currently, but truth is that - As long as Pak uses terrorism as a policy against India, they would get "demonising" responses from the Indians. Do they expect flowers in return or invitations to more Kasabs? It is as simple as that.

Let me be very clear here. Ri-azzhole is NOT producing facts he is selecting articles from fringe anti-indian sources with questionable intent and hidden agendas and passing them as gospel.

Arjun used to post information from trusted Paki sources. He used to take a perverse pleasure in puncturing the egos of puffed up Pakis like SenileRacistBigot32 and Romair but he never lied.

Let me give you a perfect example of the insidious nature of this azzhole's lies. He is baying from the rooftops that there are 153 criminals elected to the Inidan Lok-sabha. He has been informed several times that if you are a convicted criminal, you are not allowed to contest an election. Like Sanjay Dutt.

Just because someone has a case registered does not make that person a criminal. Anybody can register a criminal case against anybody and demand their day in court. If you stand for a Lok sabha election and display some strength, you can rest assured someone or the other will register a bogus crimainal case against you.

Presumtion of innocence is a cornerstone of the Inidan Justice system. As it is in almost every democracy on this planet.

To keep harping on the same issue over and over again after all the explanations, betrays the intellect of a half-wit or a propagandist of the caliber of Goebbels.

Extolling the virtues of the puny KSE without informing how big this exchange is in real terms and in comparison with other exchanges is criminal. Madani sahib knows how many people lost their life savings when the stocks on the KSE were manipulated a couple of years back. This guy is on a roll getting puffed up with each passing day.

And here are all of you feeding this bugger's ego instead of exposing him for what he is -- a bad snake-oil salesman.

Re: # 445

[whatever that is]

Yaar, I don't mean to spoil your innocence but I think that guy is referring to the tip of your penis which he implies has been chopped off.

THAT is what it is!

Re: # 437, 438

nkg (abey katue) whatever that is, and ajeya (cutloo) whatever that is...I'm totally secularist...so if you wish to bombard insults and abuses at people's religions hoping to raise someone's hackles about this...remember that those who believe in religious fairy tales could always respond back to your own system of faith and belief, if you want.

Re: # 432 Goldfinger, Riaz...I guess you are very much out of sync with the general views (of Pak Population) as reflected in your national newspaper Dawn's recent statement "Only brutal honesty can lead the people of Pakistan to the exit door".

I agree that Riaz gives a lot of facts/figures but are they relevant and accepted indicators. The fact that Pak had two bomb blast in last 2 days (in Dir and Islamabad) speaks much louder than any good indicators/facts that he can present. Secondly why does he always drag India in any discussion and always provides negative indicators which most of the Indians are already aware of.

In the last 10-15 days there have been more than a dozen racial attacks on Indians in Australia. The Indian national media (newspapers, TV channels) is highlighting this issue to the general public and lot of articles, TV talkshows, debates, protest marches etc. are being held to address this.

I do not see any such positive views from these most vocal Pakis or concrete actions from Pak govt on how such attacks can be prevented. Both the ground situation and the quality of posts/interacts is getting worse day-by-day and that is sickening.

Re: # 432

Who has multiplied copiously, Pakistanis or Indians?

Population of India 1947 : 350 million
Population of India 2009 : 1100 million
Growth: 3.15 times

Population of W Pakistan 1947 : 33 million
Population of W Pakistan 2009 : 170 million
Growth: 5.15 times

The fact that you have NOTHING to say, other than calling me names and red-flagging my posts is indicative of the dilemma that the "faithful" find themselves in. How to stop the discussion about these issues? Killing the critics as has been the tradition is not always possible today. You WILL hear it on CNN soon. In a post-oil world. Wait and watch.

Correction to #440

I meant loathsome.

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Re: # 436
Gold,
There is no better proof of what you, hamidm and I are saying than the despicable comments of the many bigoted Indians on Chowk.

Most of them are totally devoid of any sense of honor or civility. Their language is foul and filthy. Their actions are probably even worse, as they defend the Nazi-like RSS agenda against the minorities in India, and support Modi and company's butchery, while demonizing Pakistanis and Muslims.

They never miss any opportunity to live up to their hideous image, like the picture of Dorian Gray.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

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Re: # 423

Riaz Haq,

I agree with you...my experiences have also been almost identical to yours...I'm astonished with the hate that emanates from these bigoted, abusive Indians...seems like when they are cornered the only thing they can do is to hurl insults...because they are very bold when they do so incognito.

#433 correction

Instead of "or selling their innocent and helpless men, women and children as slaves", read "or selling their innocent and helpless women and children as slaves".

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Its quite amazing to watch what is going on here...abusing and hate filled Indians are creeping out of every nook and cranny of the world like some virulent insect...because lets face it they have multiplied copiously and conditions being terrible at home millions have scurried away from home and spread far and wide in the world...and are pouring scorn and abuse upon Riaz Haq...and for what? Just because he is stating facts...and facts are what bigots hate...they only wish to be told how gloriously shinning the pot they scurried away from is rather than how black, ugly and stinky it is...they wish the world to say that they are perfect despite the multiple festering sores that they carry with them...after all are these not facts that Riaz sahib is propounding? Are facts pinching you guys that hard?

Re: # 427

Hamidm sahib:

In this case in point, Riaz sahib's hatred is no less.

Can you point to me where I am wrong? I am saying that Riaz helped changed my view that there is common ground, just as Jinnah said in support of TNT.

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hamidm2,

I have to really ask, how does Kashmir matter to you?
You are sitting pretty in North America, with most
probably no plans to go back to Pakistan.
Even if Kashmir becomes part of Pakistan, you are
still going to remain in USA.
What is it really about Kashmir that bothers you?
If India becomes a Muslim country, will you root
for either Kashmir's merger with Pakistan or
Independent Kashmir?

Re: # 424 Mr.Stuka.....You may not like me as many of distractore who call me names as "mad" etc. But my request sincerely to not get personal with Prf. R.Haq or any body. Some times it is better to say nothing than create hatred.
I will agree with many he has crossed lines gentle behaviour. Some times he is making mistake of dehumanizing opponents which many indins are also doing. If we do not like somebody it is better to walk away. Most educated people make mistake of over reading and over stretching and massaging and drawing swift conclusions which are already drawn and they write same. Educated people develop arrogency and become proud of their knowledge= which is information. While half educated person like me we are not sure as we have no most information. There is tendency to "quote" some body . We are still mental slaves in many way some body says it is in holy roman script english and return by white person is truth. Look at all postings and observe that, they do not post of locals as locals are suspect. I personally get upset and angree about it.
This newspaper should really cut people when they start putting redigested same stuff as original. I second masadi in this matter as he redicules copied stuff.
I feel you can think of getting mild and nt getting personal. Your friend had great loss but look here in city 32 people are slaughtered including 11 today. If look outside there 4 million refugees , 99% are innocent and have lost dear once, their possessions, house, cattle are systematically destroyed by Helicopter Gun ships and F-16 as usual given by American thugs to make others die. My rough estimate is about 30,000 people may be killed after new president came in power. How you know Prof. R.Haq is not affected. Many pakistanis are visited by misery ( many times more than Bombay attack ) I know many people who have lost their children , wives, brothers in going carnage for last year of so. So please be bearing knowing last 60 years mind poisoning is going on fortified by Indian direct involment in breaking country in Half. So most habitually think India is involved. They may be involved but not 200% as govt says. We are not going through easy time like india. People are frustrated , depressed and ANXIOUS what is in Future. So people are on edge so please be kind and just like your friend may 50 to 60 times more people are affected and prof. R.Haq may be affected.
I request you to be polite and do nt get personal.
Good luck and good day.

Re: # 426

anil mian,

...... you are wrong ... most pakis, including the good the bad and the ugly, agree with riaz sahib .... we just don't think it is worth the effort to argue with the horrible hindoos who just can't get over their pathological hatred for pakistan ....... as much as i try, i cannot understand why you guys behave the way that you do ..... the only explanation that i can think of is that you hate us because we are better looking and we refuse to pay homage like nepal or bhutan ...... personally, since i am not a big fan of bollywood, i wouldn't pay any attention to india if it was not occupying kashmir, setting off bombs in lahore and supplying arms to the taliban .....

riaz sahib zindabad!
hindustan murdabad!

Riaz sahib:

With all due respect to you and your views, over the last few days I had a chance to read your views until I got overloaded.

I felt that you are a proof for TNT that Jinnah wanted and got it, if it was ever needed by generation of grandkids of partition. Muslim Indians that I have met and worked (and I have done that a few of them right from Chairman of IDBI – Industrial Development Bank of India, later Chairman of SEBI (India’s SEC) to engineers whom I hired and mentored, I have never seen this level of hatred and manipulation. Whatever may be your reasons for your hatred, you know them best. You indeed have one more believer of TNT. For one thing I am certain that your Allah has given you the same numbers of 24 hours in a day that Bhagwan, God and others have given to others. It is how we all use is what we become (pauper to president).

Your level of intolerance is no less than those of right wing Indians. I found your exchange with the poster from Bangladesh to all Indians very enlightening. I used to think most Pakistanis think like Echoboom, Zeemax, Cliftonbridge, Scout, and Tahmed sahib, and therefore easier to reason and talk.

Now I do wonder, if most Pakistanis think like you or you are an exception.

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Riaz Genius: My professional colleague lost his wife and two sons because of Pakistani bastards. I really must go and ask him why he does not like you too much. You people commit terrorism in India, bomb blasts in the stock exchange and in movie theatres and hotels, then give refuge to Dawood Ibrahim and assorted jihadi groups, then you act all surprised that you are not very well liked. It's not just the Indians. No one really like Pakistan. We are only the honest ones to tell it to your face. Even the Chinese btw, they want Pakistan as an ally but they don't really respect your country too much/ Tell me what there is to like in a Jihadi melting pot and exporter or terror? Besides, we could accept those Kaaley Bangali living independently, we can accept you as an indepependent country as well. But not as long as you guys remain a Jihad factory.

Re: # 420
arif and banjara,

I agree with both of you. You have effectively presented the case for and against the ongoing battle on Chowk, with me as a single individual pitted against a much larger, highly organized and abusive group of Indians, who use the dinosaur logic. While I do hear some voices of reason from the much smaller Pakistani side, the message from the other side has grown more and more personally abusive and vociferous. And I really wish it weren't the case.

Having lived overseas, studied and visited both India and Pakistan over decades now, I find that the two nations have a lot in common...in fact what joins them is not just the geography, but a lot common history and heritage that spawned the common Indo-persian culture with significant contribution from both Hindus and Muslims.

However, there has been a great deal of animosity promoted on both sides by radicals because of the failure to address the underlying issues that divide us. Though I don't always agree with Hoodbhoy, he made a video about the festering Kashmir issue that has dramatically contributed to hostility on both sides. I posted it as an ilog at http://www.chowk.com/ilogs/71912/48173

While the video presents a balanced picture in apportioning blame, it is clear from it that India, the larger of the two players, has failed to deliver on its solemn promises to the people of Kashmir and the world. India has also failed to show any political or moral leadership toward resolving the crisis, in spite of significant flexibility shown by Pakistan in the last decade.

Besides Kashmir, which I think is the root cause used by both sides for radicalization, I have personally seen the extreme animosity and outright hatred of Pakistan displayed by most Indians on almost all forums overseas, whether it is radio, tv, internet, journals etc. The only exception I have seen is FOSA (Friends of South Asia) that brings the anti-war liberals together from both sides. I do hope they grow in strength, but they are really like a drop in the ocean at the moment after many years of existence.

One of the favorite liberal call-in radio talk shows I often listen to is Talk of the Nation on NPR. Every time, there is India-Pak discussion, the phone lines are overwhelmed by Indian callers, each demanding that India and US should essentially put an end to Pakistan by applying all kinds of sanctions and launching all massive military strikes against their neighbor. I see the same thing on the Internet, where Indians use their numerical superiority to overwhelm the medium with hateful messages against Pakistan and Pakistanis.

In an ideal world, you'd expect the bigger of the two players to show more tolerance and magnanimity in the relationship. But, alas, that is not the case between India and Pakistan.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Yaar, somebody should put these Pakistanis out of their misery, somehow should convice them India has accepted
Pakistan. Pakistanis are still desperate for India's acceptance after 60+ years, unbelievable.
Big brother has to do something do make little broter
feel secure.

Re: # 420 arif sb,
u and i may know that the love-hate relationship would last a long time; the problem is that indians - though they may know it deep down in their hearts - have never accepted it since 1947. first nehru gave it six months to last. sixty two years later every dhoti-clad chamar in india gets up in the morning expecting pakistan to go down by the end of the day.

i would not be surprised if the consuming hatred of a lot of indian posters here is simply due to the fact that - in spite o their fervent hatred - pakistan won't give up the ghost.

heck, they can't even put down a lone pak fighter on this board having been reduced to nothing but insults and name calling. soon we shall be witnessing the classic kosna and kilkilana of raand destitute village folks a la "bahgwaan karay teray jism mein keerday parein kambakhat ...".

just u watch :-).

Re: # 415

Riaz Sahib

India and Pakistan are neighbors, not very friendly but yet conjoined by geography and history. Sincere advice, take a break, these two neighbors cannot change their location and this love hate relationship is here to stay for a long long time.

Riaz, Dalrymple LOVES India and Indians.

You HATE India and Indians.

He would feel nauseous to be in the presence of someone who says this about the people and land he has spent the best years of his life living in and writing about:

+++++

"I think it stems from the low self-esteem they suffer after long spells of foreign rulers, absence of brain development from widespread malnutrition, low quality of general education, and their mainstream Bollywood entertainment that shapes their personas and usually symbolizes extreme vulgarity"

+++++

I mean Riaz, do you understand this? Dalrymple would find you repulsive.

For India's Dalrymple lovers/scholars on Chowk, read he following from Dalrymple and see how he exposes your lies:

Amid all the hoopla surrounding the 60th anniversary of Indian independence, almost nothing has been heard from Pakistan, which turns 60 today. Nothing, that is, if you discount the low rumble of suicide bombings, the noise of automatic weapons storming the Red Mosque and the creak of slowly collapsing dictatorships.

In the world's media, never has the contrast between the two countries appeared so stark: one is widely perceived as the next great superpower; the other written off as a failed state, a world centre of Islamic radicalism, the hiding place of Osama bin Laden and the only US ally that Washington appears ready to bomb.

On the ground, of course, the reality is different and first-time visitors to Pakistan are almost always surprised by the country's visible prosperity. There is far less poverty on show in Pakistan than in India, fewer beggars, and much less desperation. In many ways the infrastructure of Pakistan is much more advanced: there are better roads and airports, and more reliable electricity. Middle-class Pakistani houses are often bigger and better appointed than their equivalents in India.

Moreover, the Pakistani economy is undergoing a construction and consumer boom similar to India's, with growth rates of 7%, and what is currently the fastest-rising stock market in Asia. You can see the effects everywhere: in new shopping centres and restaurant complexes, in the hoardings for the latest laptops and iPods, in the cranes and building sites, in the endless stores selling mobile phones: in 2003 the country had fewer than three million cellphone users; today there are almost 50 million.

Mohsin Hamid, author of the Booker long-listed novel The Reluctant Fundamentalist, wrote about this change after a recent visit: having lived abroad as a banker in New York and London, he returned home to find the country unrecognisable. He was particularly struck by "the incredible new world of media that had sprung up, a world of music videos, fashion programmes, independent news networks, cross-dressing talkshow hosts, religious debates, and stock-market analysis".

I knew, of course, that the government of Pervez Musharraf had opened the media to private operators. But I had not until then realised how profoundly things had changed. Not just television, but private radio stations and newspapers have also flourished in Pakistan over the past few years. The result is an unprecedented openness. Young people are speaking and dressing differently. Views both critical and supportive of the government are voiced with breathtaking frankness in an atmosphere remarkably lacking in censorship. Public space, the common area for culture and expression that had been so circumscribed in my childhood, has now been vastly expanded. The Vagina Monologues was recently performed on stage to standing ovations.

Little of this is reported in the western press, which prefers its sterotypes simple: India-successful; Pakistan-failure. Nevertheless, despite the economic boom, there are three serious problems that Pakistan will have to sort out if it is to continue to keep up with its giant neighbour - or indeed continue as a coherent state at all.

Source: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/aug/14/pakistan.india1
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

"I know Dalrymple loves India, but I also know that he abhors the right-wing Hindu nationalists"

++++

Riaz, he also hates racists like you who vomit the kind of rhetoric you've vomited out here about Indians. That's a fact. He loves India. You hate India.

You seem too cretinous to understand the difference, even in the middle of your red mist.

Re: # 412
I know Dalrymple loves India, but I also know that he abhors the right-wing Hindu nationalists.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 413
Nothing energizes me more than to respond to the unpleasant sight of chattering Saffronites infesting Chowk, and lying about Pakistanis and Muslims.

Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 413 Posted by rf786 on June 7, 2009 9:36:26 am

rf bahi,

unkee sui atuck gayee hein. aur hamid mian is purposely egging him on. I think we should ask chowk staff to ban this interactor for a few days for his own good, and also we can get some rest from his opinions.

As soon as I see so many interacts from this one nick, I just run away from chowk. ein sahib kay opinionoun say mera monitor bhee ghabra gaya hein.

array bhai, chowk wallay kisee kee bhee baat nahin suntay hein. kiya musibut naazil houwee hein hum par.

Riaz Haq Sahib

With all due respect, you should change your nick to "Energizer Bunny" that keeps going and going.....

"I think it stems from the low self-esteem they suffer after long spells of foreign rulers, absence of brain development from widespread malnutrition, low quality of general education, and their mainstream Bollywood entertainment that shapes their personas and usually symbolizes extreme vulgarity"

+++++++++

Dude, you do know that William Dalrymple, who lives in and loves India, would probably walk out of the room if he heard you say that? Why do you namedrop someone who is the polar opposite of the racist that you are? What an absurd man you are.

As for Dalrymple, I like some of his writing, some of it not so much. How he ended up being raised to the level of sainthood by racist internet Jihadi Riazul Haq, I don't know.

Re: # 408

Mr. Riaz-(Zia-ul)-Haq, I think you are one of the most stupid and ignorant Pakistanis I have ever encountered and on this site, that is an extreme distinction. I have read William Dalrymple and in his deepest of dreams, I doubt he would be comparing himself with a professional educator like Will Durant who took fifty years to write his book that earned him a Pulitzer prize.

I think you are a notch above Mantolives -- and that IS saying a lot!

If it is William, let it be Durant. If it is Dalrymple, let it be Theodore.

RiazHaq (PAW) #403

{{And how long has RSS been around? When did Hedgewar and Golwalkar live?}}

The RSS was founded in 1925. Hedgewar was apparently imprisoned in 1931. Golmalkar would have been 29 in 1935, when Will Durant (then 50, in his prime, and already well-known) published the first volume of The Story of Civilization, with the writings on India. Nice try changing the subject.

Far more likely than any RSS influence, is that Will Durant had read from the mass of historical literature on India and the Indian subcontinent easily available in the US at the time. By 1935 serious European scholarship on Indic civilization was already one and a half centuries old. Indic ideas, particularly Vedantic Hinduism, Buddhist, and Sanskrit literature, had fascinated several generations of scholarly occidentals. Yale University had a professor of Sanskrit (William Dwight Whitney) as early as 1854. The New England Transcendentalists (Thoreau, Emerson and the like) were strongly influenced by Vedanta. This is quite significant because Durant's earlier writing was on philosophy. Durant, like other intelligent and objective people, was perfectly capable of looking at the available evidence on Indian history and the opinions of other scholars from his own civilization, and drawing his own conclusions.

Re: # 406
And how long has RSS been around? When did Hedgewar and Golwalkar live? The RSS animosity toward India's Muslim did not start after partition, nor did its admiration for Hitler's genocide of Jews.

Only in the last few decades have the RSS switched their role models from Nazis to Zionists because of Israel's hatred and wanton killings of Muslims. Such Israeli brutality toward Muslims has now become a source of inspiration for Hindu nationalists, as they ponder emulating Israel in South Asia.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 405

Cowasjee is right. Karachi does have serious crime problem. So does the rest of the country.

But he does not put it in perspective. Let me do it for you.

There were 32,719 incidents (Nationmaster puts it at 37,170) of murder recorded in India in 2008, whereas there were 28,904 in Russia, 26,539 in Colombia, 21,995 in South Africa, 16,692 in the US, 13,829 in Mexico and 9,631 in Pakistan, the report compiled by National Crime Records Bureau and released by the India's Union Home Ministry, said.

Experts believe the actual crime rate in India (and probably Pakistan) is even higher with many cases going unreported.

Overall, five million cases of crime, including murder, rape and drug offenses, were reported in India in 2007-08, the report compiled by the National Crime Records Bureau (NCRB) and released by the Indian home ministry says.

It is interesting to note that Pakistan does not really live up (or down, depending on your perspective) to its undeserved reputation as an "unsafe country" when compared on the basis of real data and crime statistics. On the contrary, it appears to be about as safe as the United States or neighboring India. It is the high-profile Al-Qaeda and Taleban terrorist leaders, and the acts of violence they inspire, that contribute to Pakistan's image as an unsafe place. The Western and Pakistani media's pre-occupation with wall-to-wall reporting of such violence enhances the stature of the terrorists and serves their purposes by attracting misguided young men to their destructive cause.

Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

RiazHaq (PAW) #403

{{Your ignorance on the subject is breathtaking. Just go look up how the two are seen by the world. Durant is a relative unknown, Dalrymple is highly regarded in India, Pakistan and the rest of the world.}}

Will and Ariel Durant were the authors of, among other books, the extremely well-known 11-volume The Story of Civilization. While numbers are no sure criterion of worth, the Durants' books sold millions of copies. I'll wager that literate Americans (the kind that actually read books) are far, far more likely to have read, or at least heard of, the Durants than William Dalrymple. The latter, himself a would-be latter-day white Munghol, is a niche interest for Munghol-fanciers. By calling Will Durant a relative unknown, Mr. Haq has only showcased his own ignorance.

RiazHaq (PAW) #400

{{It seems Durant has fallen victim to the right wing Hindu attempts at revisionist history since the creation by Golwalker of the RSS Hindu fascist organization.}}

Will Durant's Our Oriental Heritage (the first of eleven volumes of The Story of Civilization), which contains his writing on India, was apparently published in 1935. Yeah, I suppose he was an early dupe of 'right wing Hindu revisionism'.

pakis will brew in their own stew...

The cause of law and order was not furthered by the Objectives Resolution which was proposed by Jinnah’s successor, his one time right-hand man, Prime Minister Liaquat Ali Khan, six months after his death, and passed by the constituent assembly. It was an incitement to intolerance, and as we know intolerance leads to violence, and violence which through lack of will cannot be controlled negates law and order. This country over the years has not simply been subjected to criminality emanating from all levels of society, the highest to the lowest, but with massive religious intolerance which has led to unending sectarian strife and finally to the Taliban and their territorial plans.

Karachi is no stranger to the absence of law and order, much of it politically inspired. None of our political parties have ever inserted the issue of law and order in their list of priorities — it has always been a non-starter. As an illustration of the absence and of the involvement of politics in that absence, let us just take the headlines on one day as were printed on the front page of the Metropolitan section of this newspaper — on June 5, last Friday. ‘PPP man kidnapped, killed’, ‘Two MQM activists shot dead’, ‘JI activist killed in Surjani’, ‘Two Haqiqi workers gunned down’. A broad coverage of the political spectrum, would one not say?

http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/the-newspa per/columnists/16-ardeshir-cowasjee-karachi-law-and-order-769-hs-04

And some people call me a name-dropper. As an amateur, I have to bow before a master. Note the clever insinuation that one has met him several times, perhaps in more intimate circumstances.
#403 "The last time I met him, he was the guest of honor at a TIE charter member event in Si Valley."
That being said, there are a lot of historians who do not agree with much Dalrymple says, and many of them are self styled 'secular' Indian historians.

Re: # 401
Your ignorance on the subject is breathtaking. Just go look up how the two are seen by the world. Durant is a relative unknown, Dalrymple is highly regarded in India, Pakistan and the rest of the world. The last time I met him, he was the guest of honor at a TIE charter member event in Si Valley. The only people who didn't like him at the event were those right-wing Hindus who supported banning "Joda Akbar", the hot topic at the time in India.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 391
If you honestly believe Pakistan is dead, why do you keep talking about it? Why are you always behaving like Wile E. Coyote to try and get the Roadrunner called "Pakistan" for over 60 years?

It seems to me that your hateful mind and your wishful thinking have completely paralyzed your ability to assess the situation correctly and think logically.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

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Re: # 396
It seems Durant has fallen victim to the right wing Hindu attempts at revisionist history since the creation by Golwalker of the RSS Hindu fascist organization. Your admiration for him clearly stems from the fact that he has bought the RSS line.

Here's how William Dalrymple, an authentic historian of India, describes it:

The roots of the current conflict can be traced back to two rival conceptions of Indian history that began diverge in the 1930’s, during the freedom struggle against the British Raj. While the Indian Congress Party, led by Mahatma Gandhi and Jawaharlal Nehru, tended to emphasise national unity and sought to minimise historical differences between Hindus and Muslims in order to form a united front against the British, a rather different line was taken by India’s more extreme Hindu nationalists, some of whom formed a neo-Fascist paramilitary organisation, the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (or RSS), the Association of National Volunteers.

Like the Phalange in Lebanon, the RSS, was founded in direct imitation of European Fascist movements. Like its 1930's models, it still makes much of daily parading in khaki drill and the giving of militaristic salutes (the RSS salute differs from that of the Nazis only in the angle of the forearm, which is held horizontally over the chest). The idea is to create a corps of dedicated paramilitary zealots who will bring about a revival of what the RSS see the lost Hindu golden age of national strength and purity. The BJP, the Hindu nationalist party which ruled India from 1999 until this May, was founded as the political wing of the RSS, and most senior BJP figures hold posts in both organisations. Though the BJP is certainly much more moderate than the RSS- like the Likud in Israel, the BJP is a party which embraces a wide spectrum of right-wing opinion, ranging from mildly conservative free marketeers to raving ultra-nationalists- both organisations believe, as the centrepiece of their ideology, that India is in essence a Hindu nation and that the minorities may live in India only if they acknowledge this.

Madhav Golwalkar, the early RSS leader still known simply as 'the Guru' was the man who formulated what later became the official RSS/BJP position on Indian history. He broke with conventional Indian views -- and the consensus of scholars -- in two ways. One was in his understanding of Indian prehistory. Most archaeologists, then as now, took the view that India had been settled in the course of the second millennium BC by a group of peoples who spoke Indo-European -- or Aryan -- languages, and who arrived in India in an Eastwards migration from the Middle East. Golwalkar disagreed. He believed that Hindus were indigenous to India- in contrast to India’s Muslims who invaded India and still looked to Mecca as the focus of their faith. As he wrote in We, or Our Nationhood Defined: “The Hindus came into this land from nowhere, but are indigenous children of the soil always, from times immemorial�.

It is also strange to see the admiration of Israel among the Hindu right-wing, in sharp contrast to Golwalker's support for Hilter and his genocide of Jews. Again, this is how Dalrypmle describes it:

Golwalkar looked for inspiration to the Nazi thinkers of 1930’s Germany. He believed an independent India should emulate Hitler's treatment of religious minorities, which he thoroughly approved of: "To keep up the purity of the Race and its culture, Germany shocked the world by her purging of its Semitic Race, the Jews," he wrote admiringly in We soon after Kristallnacht. "Race pride at its highest has been manifested there. Germany has also shown how well-nigh impossible it is for Races and cultures having differences going to the root to be assimilated into one united whole, a good lesson for us in Hindusthan to learn and profit by... The foreign races in Hindusthan [ie the Muslims] must adopt the Hindu culture and language, must learn to respect and hold in reverence the Hindu religion, must entertain no ideas but those of glorification of the Hindu race and culture[… and] may [only] stay in the country wholly subordinated to the Hindu nation, claiming nothing -- not even citizen’s rights."

During Partition in 1947, the RSS was responsible for many horrifying atrocities against India's Muslims, and it was a former RSS swayamsevak, Nathuram Godse, who assassinated Mahatma Gandhi for (in RSS eyes) “pandering� to the Muslims. In the aftermath of this, Nehru decided to deal with the threat he believed the Hindu Nationalists posed to the nation and denounced the RSS as a “private army which is proceeding on Nazi lines.�

Source: http://74.125.155.132/search?q=cache:AbdXlWxtwkgJ:www.columbia.edu/itc/mealac/pr itchett/00generallinks/txt_dalrymple_review.doc+Dalrymple+Muslim+India+tolerance &cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a


Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

And Riaz-(Zia-ul)-Haq,

In order to not lose the wisdom that you have compiled in your interacts on this board, I recommend the following steps:

1. Archive a copy of each of those insightful comments.

2. Prepare an Executive Summary up front.

3. Invest in a good-looking binder.

Once ready, keep it in an easily accessible location where all the members of your family (especially little kids, if you have any), your visitor friends, and colleagues (if any) can get a good view of them. It would be highly unfair to deprive them of your such pearls of wisdom.

After all, charity MUST begin at home!

Re: # 397

Riaz-(Zia-ul)-Haq, you are impressive with your succinct observations on the features, characteristics and undesirable properties of Indians.

Do tell us more.

I think you are a keen Pakistani observer of Indian creatures in their own habitat and you must (I repeat, MUST) make your scientific observations better known. If only you could be published, why you would have given the late Dr. Salaam a real run for the money -- and people would be singing YOUR praises as the greatest Pakistani scientific mind of all times!

Bravo!!

PS: And when you get your act fully going, consider hiring Hamidm2 miaN as a sidekick!

(Even bhoala-bhaala GWB needed a wiley Cheney!)

Re: # 393
Good observation. But lack of civility is part of the culture for many Indians, as observed by how they conduct themselves in their "august" house called parliament, and on the Internet.

I think it stems from the low self-esteem they suffer after long spells of foreign rulers, absence of brain development from widespread malnutrition, low quality of general education, and their mainstream Bollywood entertainment that shapes their personas and usually symbolizes extreme vulgarity.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

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...And Hamidm2 miaN...

You and Riaz-(the descendent of Zia-ul)-Haq are like a couple of bulbul sitting on a faraway tree, watching the destruction of that branch and singing nostalgic ghazals.

Kaash, aghar aisa na hoata!
Kaash, hum bhi aadmi hotey kaam ke!
Hai, hai India -- tu baDa bedardeee!!

Hamidm2 miaN, admit it.

India (Hindustan) has something that West India (Pakistan) lacks and desperately wants.

But will never have.

Why?

Simple. It is like a branch cut off from a tree and trying to grow its own root. The tree goes on. Do you want to guess what happens to the tree?

Some Indian will be making wood planks out of it, make a hole in it and put it to some good use -- after lifting the proverbial dhoti, of course!

riaz sahib,

..... keep up the good work! ..... i really don't have the time to read through all the posts, but you must be doing something right because the horrible hindoos are running around as if they had a bee in their dhoti ...... thank you (and the bee) for putting these uppity vegetarians in their proper place at the bottom of the food chain ..........

pakistan zindabad!
hindustan murdabad! (i don't know why they still call their desh by its colonial name)

Re: # 384

Ahmedmadani sahib, thank you for that much-needed insightful input -- it is like a breath of fresh air in this environment polluted by Riaz Haq. I think you have the Indians figured out like very few individuals here do. Your post goes a long way in exposing the duplicity and hypocrisy of the Pakistani liberal elite -- which this Riaz Haq (who may be a direct descendant of Zia-ul Haq, for all I know) guy epitomizes. It is nothing but amazing that such individuals hide their own (fat) butts in the USA and other western hang-outs and continue to support the crimes, cruelties, and craven cowardice of the Pakistani khaki elites. It won't surprise me if this specimen of an individual is trying to make a case for some plum position posting for himself, or sending his bags of money to one political candidate or other to facilitate business deals down the road. These fat cats are wiley -- and I am sure you will agree with me that there is no fat cat like a Pakistani fat cat!

Re: # 389
"as that poster agantuk said, "Pakistan" died in 1971. What you have there is the stinking carcass which is being scavenged by the hyenas called the Taliban."

That was a very incisive comment.

We have a Pishacha in our midst now, terrorizing and scaring the world with its terrorist state apparatus, terrorist Ulemans and Terrorist Army!!

Re: # 369

nemesis...you are sounding more and more silly...both India and Pakistan receive aid in the form of loans...however the population of India's beggars on the streets is quite a bit more than the entire population of Pakistan put together...how awful that you still do not recognize the shame and sadness of the situation.

Ri-azzhole,

I notice that you dodged -- like the shameless azzhole that you are -- the fact that the NLI soldiers killed in action in Kargil and abandoned to rot on the slopes had grass in their stomachs. All this to keep up the fiction that even a 2 year old could see through that Honorless Na-Pak fauj was not involved in Kargil.

Keep it up. I also see the your true feelings are coming out about your ex breathern from Bengal, as that poster agantuk said, "Pakistan" died in 1971. What you have there is the stinking carcass which is being scavenged by the hyenas called the Taliban.

I happen to believe now that they are doing a service to mankind by exterminating the so called "Liberal" elite like you and SenileRacistBigot32and your ilk from this planet.

India already has a good working relationship with the Taliban ;) After all, we take the weaponry from the cockroaches we crush in Kashmir and funnel it into the Pureland via Afghanistan. Otherwise why would we need 12 consulates? ;)

Re: # 386
This poster reminds me of an interactor with the nick of Behram who was around the Chowk a couple of years ago. Like this poster he was very fond of defecation and also was convinced of superiority of Pakistan and that nothing in India can be good.
It is better to ignore such pompous baffoons.

The "vulgarity" of these Islamist foreign Agents would be soon evident when they get busted for their support to Islamic terrorism and Jehad over kafirs and hindu mushriques soon!!

Hurling personal insults and abuse is a clear sign that the Indian bigots are desperate after losing the arguments.

This kind of behavior by my detractors results from extremely low self-esteem they have developed in the land of the poor and the hungry, as certified by IFPRI data. The malnutrition they suffered in early childhood has clearly affected their brain development to an alarming extent.

All they have left now are the vulgarities they learned growing up on the unpaved, filthy streets of India.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Riaz is the missing link to this Pakistani Ulemas-Army Nexus.

He is the foreogn link to that web of Terror.

FBI must tap his conversations.

Re: # 377 There CIA report Indians are playing double game. They are building roads in Iran to damage Karachi and Big G port and Helping Northern alliance. At same time supporting TTP to make damage. Recently they paid money to Baloach/Terror money to carry explosion in Iran and then spread news Iran has closed border. They are supporting "Talibs" in A.stan. You can see that from Top Circles attitude by Talib Supremo Mr. Omar Mullah and AL Q chief OBL they never said a word against India and China, I am saying about struggle in Kashmir and Estern Turkestan, there is not even murmur , astute observers have noted that contrast to Struggle in Palestine. Also Iran has not shown brotherly attitude to Pakistan or Kashmir. they were ready to sell gas to India , now they decided to take out India that is just financial decision not because of politics. India has used and useing on going basis terror in B.Stan helping most reactionary elements there. One gentleman "exile" from B.Stan calls on opely India to aid the terror projects. Foreign Minister is ineffective does not say even openly about Indian activities they behave shy. India uses every opportunity to harras pakistan and put us on defencive about FF ( Freedom fighter activities) and points fingures and gullible word accepts as if innocent cow is harrassed by some terror. We give opportunity to terrorist and they will ruin chances of running Pipeline ( 58inches dia). Under usa pressure JUNDULLAH business is allowed and they operate from border with Iran and attacks places of worship.This is our fault not taking action and allowing to operate here with baloch nationalists and same people who plant bombs and kill solders and troops and gas lines, poerlines and railway rails.
There is also wrong belief that Iran is helpful to pakistan they are not. She sides with Northern alliance which are bitter foes of pakistan , think about this time Islamic revolution when mullahs usurped they have not been friendly. At first chance they will gas price and make blackmail of stoppage. Now iranians/ Pursians are little bunch of people who think they are are superior race than indopakis ( Iran means land of Aryans.). They are always in struggle with Arabs. Their attitude is bad even towards Arabs though they live in same neighbourhood. They tell people we are Iranians and not Arabs and terrorists and muslims. But still we should not allow Jundullah terror activity. ( They envious of our tech capacity our nuclear arsane). Iran should understand pakistan is going through internal struggle and with Indian watching with interest north of border and already pakistan is fighting. May Iranian can do better controlling their border instead by reflexive action of accusing and better not allowing terror cross border from Pakistan side.It will be better of Iran to appreciate and help to combat terror. Pakistan is doing everything it can for stopping terror in track and seek peace world should be grateful.
Unfortunately when Pak. defence forces are fighting Americans, Indians, Afghans, isralies and specially usa is having field day useing pak and afghan territories spreading terror in Boaoch lands for future balkanization of pakistan ( All should read blogs of Maj . Pavcavalary and his analysis, ). Prof R.Haq etc are getting provoked by indian nonsense is sad fact. For this we should kick Indian foreign officials from pakistan to their place/ india. What is needed India ut of site and then slowly out of mind. This is reason need to live south asians dark skinned people to move mentaly to central asia and leader of central asia. If required build wall along eastern border and stop influx of illegal ( even those coming for jobs, locals have not much luck)people from india and nepal, BD, lanka etc who are making terror activities and complicating domestic situation. Our manifest destiny is to west and north.
Now people need to stop blaming army for everything. We have problem as country is ruled western , liberal impotent liberals they always blame army. Liberals are stupid and their actions are suicidal. Like one Chap educated in usa, uk etc said IDP is not big problem just indians are makig noise. That how are hair brain elites , just miserable hopeless bunch. They worship USA and China. China is all show they have trillions in bank they denote just 3 million dollars. Our real friends are turkey and KSA sent planes full of food for IDPs of worth 150 million dollars, turkey 10 millions. Now real problem is americans like Prof R Haq do not understand our army will do any thing for usa even to balkanize pakistan for green dollars. Where in world America can get 150,000 thousand soldiers get fight their wars so cheaply , our rulers, army and mullahs wil do anything for little some. Ungrateful bunch.
My point is leave india to dogs they will go down themselves they are trying to show they are in league with central ad west asia they are not. I do not understand why people even respond to indians.
I have done best to keep informed about our destiny. I am tired by stupidity. Good day,

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Re: # 371 Riaz

"....Without knowing the context you can not correctly interpret...

But, isn't that what you do all day on Chowk? Quoting stuff out of context?

madaniji,

All Arab leaders speak very lovingly about Pakistan....all milk & honey...words are cheap... Just like in OIC everybody pats Pakistanis on their backs & call them Muslim brothers...
How touching...

Did Qaddafi slam Hindu/Buddhist India for committing atrocities against Muslims in Kashmir & Gujarat? Did he call for an OPEC oil embargo against India for killing Muslims ( &, incidentally "enslaving" 170 million Bangladeshis)?.

Did Palestinian Yasser Arafat or Fatah or Hamas bring out protest on the street about Indian atrocities in Kashmir...& their Allah given right of Azadi?...Jeeze, at least call for a ban on Bollywood...my Syrian partner knows more about Dev Anand than I do!!!?

Now India & Israel are the largest arms trading partners.Any peep from Ummah?

Only public support for Pakistan stance on Kashmir is from...gasp!.... Al-Qeeda!!

Helloooo?! World wide web of Pakistani intellectual pehelwans? Has your ummah gone to sleep?!

Actions speak louder than words..
I'll tell you a secret...shhh...all Arabs leaders are actually Indian agents..

Re: # 358 Shankar

Thanks for the psycho-analysis of Riaz. Makes sense. His bottom line:

India - no good
Bangladesh - no good
Western democracy - no good

Pakistan - sweetness and light on earth!

#377
Riaz mian,
ROTFL!!
You are getting shriller & shriller.
The humiliation of 71 still burns you. Those scrawny, starving dal eaters kicked your marital asses goooood

RiazHaq miaN, I think you are an absolute hypocrite and major India-phobe. People like you do serious damage to a country like Pakistan which is already reaching paatal-loak!

Re: # 376
Your every word smacks of abject servitude to Indian bigots.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

"Most analysts believe Bangladesh is not a viable nation as it has been created. With Pakistan it had a better chance of survival"

Only analyst of ISI and Kissinger believed this, although it has been proved wrong now. BTW, Pakistan actually died in 1971,so there is no question of its survival.All you have a killer army who actually owns the state, feudal landlords and their helpless slaves .

RiazHaq, you are giving too much credit to indians, BD still has a long way to go but during the last 20 years, we have made significant improvement in all sectors, education, agriculture and industries. BD is the major garment exporter to USA and Europe, Grameen has started its operation in NY,DR. YUnus has won Noble peace prize, BRAC is helping the helpless people of pakistan and Afganistan, you are saying all these we achieved being slaves of Indians.

Re: # 370

Wishful, delusional thinking about Pakistan's end of days? Is this delusion induced by pangs of hunger and starvation? Dream on!!!
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 369
Pakistanis eat grass? Beg your pardon? Grass is the national preference for food in India, not Pakistan. That too is in short supply as shown by the most widespread and deeply entrenched hunger in your nation, according world hunger index. Pakistanis are mostly carnivores, not herbivores, and they are much better fed than their Indian or Bangladeshi counterparts.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 369
Most foreign aid received by Pakistan and India is in the form of loans. In fact, both Indian and Pakistani budgets allocate more than a third of the annual budget for debt servicing. Please learn the facts, if you do not wish to make a complete fool of your horribly bigoted self.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 368

Every chapter in the Quran has a context in terms of time and place and circumstances under which it was revealed. Without knowing the context you can not correctly interpret the Suras.

A Sura revealed during war, for example, talks about war. Suras revealed during peace time offer guidance on how to behave and what to do in peace time.

You can easily be dishonest (as you are) and make whatever misguided points you wish by plucking verses and lines from any holy book and presenting them out of context.

Your tricks are not new. Such tricks have been tried by other bigots like you to no avail. Islam continues to attract a lot of non-Muslims and it continues to the fastest growing religion in the world, in spite of all the venom spewed out against Islam and its followers by people like you.

If you are sincere about learning about Islam and Quran, take off your biased filters and read authors I have recommended, and then read the Quran with appropriate interpretations offered by established scholars, not bin Ladens and Mullah Omars of the world who believe in a horrible distortion of the peaceful and tolerant faith.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

#362 Posted by RiazHaq

Celebrating the impending demise of your brethren?

I am sure, you will google and find that Mujibur Rehman was responsible for the rise of sea level in Bangla Desh.

Start worrying about the destruction of your house in Pakiland. Unlike BD,it won't take a century

#359 Posted by Goldfinger

Borrowers are no beggars. They repay their loans with interest. In this case, India borrows and repays while Pakiland begs, begs and begs more.

Irony is that the alms are not used to feed their citizens. They are used to build weapon systems against their neighbours.

You are destined to prove your Bhutto's legacy of living thousand year and eating grass. You can't understand or tolerate India's progress and try to equate strong India with a failed country that is Pakistan

#350 Posted by RiazHaq

"You ought to be ashamed of yourself for your attacks on a peaceful and tolerant religion you know nothing about."

So the verses he quoted really do not exist in quran??

Ref Dr Shankar.... some back you asked Rhetorically if Arabs care for Pakistan as Pakistans do ? You wanted to they do not care. That is not true responsible Arabs and major Arab powers like kingdom of saudi arabia, turkey, urdan, iran , iraq, central asia, and of all PLO and friends. Most reformed and man of chage is Colonel M.G. of Libiya. Hs understanding and love and caring of pakistan and Kashmir shows very clearly his deep love, sympathy please read for yourself. Does any nation in world care for India ? Nobody is emphatic and tragic answer.

The Pakistan Quagmire By Moammar GadhafiPosted: May 30, 2009 Sat 05:02 pm Views: 72 Interacts: 0 The Pakistan Quagmire
A tangled web of regional challenges

By Moammar Gadhafi

May 29, 2009 "Washington Times" -- The West, particularly America, and Israel never wished for Pakistan to possess a nuclear bomb. But on May 28, 1998, they woke up to the fact that Pakistan had become a nuclear state and blamed their intelligence services for failure to anticipate the nuclear tests. Countless books, articles and speeches called Pakistan's nuclear bomb the "Islamic bomb," as loaded a term as any, as many considered it a doomsday weapon directed against their interests.

Every effort was made to dissuade Pakistan from owning the bomb. American Secretary of State Henry A. Kissinger frankly told then Pakistani Prime Minister Zulfikar Ali Bhutto, "If you make the bomb, we'll make an example out of you."

Mr. Bhutto, the founder of Pakistan's nuclear program, was, of course, hanged. Gen. Zia al-Haq, who Islamized Pakistan and consolidated its nuclear program, was murdered. More recently, Benazir Bhutto, Mr. Bhutto's daughter, was assassinated. Others still may face a similar fate.

The question, however, is: Why do neither the Americans nor the Israelis want Pakistan to possess the bomb?

Pakistan is a Muslim country. In fact, Islam is the very foundation for the existence of Pakistan. Except for religion, there really are no other factors that unite Pakistanis. This explains why the Pakistanis are fanatic about religion. It is the essence of their nationhood. Islam is for the Pakistanis as Judaism is for the Israelis, a matter of existence. This is not the same for other countries. China, for example, would be China with or without religion. Similarly, Iran would be the same even without religion. The same applies to Turkey. Pakistan is unique. There can be no Pakistan without Islam, as Islam was the basis for its separation from India and its raison d'etre as a state. Truly, the Pakistani nuclear bomb is a Muslim bomb. Islam for the Pakistanis is not a question of faith only but also a question of identity.

Pakistan is witnessing dramatic changes because of its complex demographic structure. Socially, it is composed of various ethnicities and fierce tribes - bordering Afghanistan - that have no loyalty to either Pakistan or Afghanistan. This is a heterogeneous structure comprising people who speak different tongues, which disunites them rather than bringing them together.

Pakistan faces challenges even within its region. It is threatened by the Shi'ite Muslim state of Iran and the Hindu and Buddhist India. Islam in Pakistan does not exist in a safe region. It is surrounded by a hostile environment that provokes its very Muslim essence, facing Buddhism and Hinduism as well as fanatic doctrines and intolerance.

This is the reason behind the formation of violent Muslim groups affiliated with the fierce tribes in Afghanistan as well as al Qaeda and Osama bin Laden. These groups, such as the Jama Islamiya, the Association of Muslim Scholars, the Ulamaa of Pakistan, the Ahl-e-Hadith, the Islamic Movement and others, in fact, provided protection for bin Laden and his movement. They are numerous, vocally declaring their fanatic concept of Islam.

The danger such fanatic groups constitute for the Israelis and Americans is that they may hold the reins of power, to which they indeed aspire. If these groups governed the state, which is a possibility, that would be a very dangerous outcome for the Americans and Israelis. On the other hand, if political parties, such as the Pakistan People's Party, or even the army, ruled, things would be relatively safe because they presumably constitute responsible institutions. Unfortunately, there is no guarantee that they can form sustainable governments.

If any of these extremist groups were to hold power, the key to the nuclear bomb would be in their hands. This has created the Pakistani quagmire for the Americans and Israelis. To address this potentially dangerous situation, they have attempted to further drive a wedge of hostility between Pakistan and neighboring India.

The Pakistanis are told that their enemy is the Hindus, not the Jews or Christians, and therefore their bomb should be directed toward them, the Pakistanis' immediate enemy, and not anyone else. Similarly, the Indians are led to believe their real enemy is Pakistan and that the Pakistani bomb was directed toward them rather than the Israelis or Americans.

This policy aims to preoccupy Pakistan with India and India with Pakistan. Perhaps this is why America has not been willing to contribute to solving the Kashmiri problem, whereas the Israelis will try to keep it always flammable.

Tension and anxiety will continue, as will the danger posed by a nuclear Pakistan. Attempts by the Israelis and Americans to extricate themselves from this quagmire, by all means, also will never cease. Either way presents a dangerous endgame to the region and the world.

Moammar Gadhafi is the leader of Libya.

Pakistan also shows affects to Arabs like Old Lylpur is Fazalabad ( the kings of arabia have special love for any body who is president of Pakistan) or stadium in honor in Col M G. second best city of Pakistan.
Good day.

interesting article about Pakistani reacion to taleban from the bbc

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/8085680. stm

I guess in Pakistan an "Indian agent" is an euphemism for anybody who is bent upon hurting Pakistan. They are even circulating nude photos of alleged Taliban dead who are uncircumcised. Now the Taliban are actually non Muslims dressed up to resemble Taliban.

Riaz...you ought to look into this...sounds like an Indian conspiracy..

Tehsinji,

Nobody is trying to "sink this Bismark".
A jackass will remain a jackass even if you try & teach him the Holy Quran.

SINK THE BISMARCK:

Lone Pakistani Riaz-Bismarck against the entire Indian fleet.

Damn it! He just wont go down.

Goldfinger,

Narcissists never ever see a psychiatrist
Are you kidding me?!
To them, they are the sanest, wisest people on earth & the rest of the world (esp those who differ) are crazy..beneath contempt...
Try again, beta:)

As a nation with one of the highest population densities in the world, Bangladesh will be one of worst affected nations as sea levels rise from climate change. About half of BD is likely to come under water this century, if the current trends continue as predicted. And BD, as one of the poorest nations, lacks the resources of Holland to fight back the water rise.

Indeed the process of migration from the shore area may have already begun, though in a subtle way, and will intensify as the situation worsens. But where will the people go? There's an enormous pressure on the capital city, Dhaka. And that pressure, by the way, is not abating as more and more people keep cramming into this over-crowded city every day. Moreover, living conditions in Dhaka are continually deteriorating because of lack of such basic amenities - like electricity and clean water. Dreadful circumstances are also mounting in other cities of the country. Above all the invasion of government land is becoming common, even in rural areas.

So the other feasible alternative might be to migrate to the neighboring country. In fact, the United Nations Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change predicts exactly such a scenario. As the sea level rises, the panel estimates another 35 million people from Bangladesh will cross over into India by 2050.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Shrinks are notorious for being more or less like their own clients that they supposedly treat...

Re: # 355
The current and future generations of Bangladeshis will pay for Mujib's deception and destruction of his people. He has essentially sold you into Indian slavery for the sake of his own ambition. But you ain't seen nothing yet.

Most analysts believe Bangladesh is not a viable nation as it has been created. With Pakistan it had a better chance of survival. Even Indians, who midwifed BD's traumatic birth, will regret the creation of Bangladesh because of the adverse impact it is having and will continue to have in the Indian states adjacent to BD.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 273

nemesis3...don't you sound utterly silly and disgusting as you negotiate through the colossal lumps of muck within your own country (both Hindu and Muslim) and to proclaim, "We are better beggars than you are!"?

Typical,
Anyone who doesn't parrot the official military/ISI line is a RAW agent! A genocide took place & the guy is blaming Mujib (who won by a landslide in E.Pakistan) as an Indian agent!

That is typical of the Pak military & their supporters. They have NEVER won a war in their blighted history , but ,for some strange reason, are very proud of it. Gen Niazi , in his book, equated his butchers to the Afrika Corps!

agantuk mian,
Riaz will google stats to show how Pak is ahead of even the US!

Pew,
The guys is an unabashed narcissist. Narcissists are so cocksure their opinions are right that that get angry when people try to burst their bubble---accuse them of being bigots, confused, uneducated & chauvinist.

Famous narcissists were Hitler, Himmler & Goebbels. They were so sure of how perfect & superior the Nazi race was; in reality all 3 of them were short, deformed & paranoid---quite the antithesis of the Blond haired blue eyed Aryans that they were representing. Narcissists, deep down inside, have a very low self esteem, which is covered up by lot of projection.

Re: # 354
You can celebrate. But having cheap currency isn't always bad. Chinese know it better than any one else. They deliberately keep the value of the yuan low.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Pakistan want to get rid of the shame of committing a genocide in BD by putting the blame on india , RAW and Mujib, when will you have the moral courage to face the truth?
Mr. Riaz Haq has declared me a slave of 'indian bigots',
people always use these kind of name calling or abusive words when they lose the debate.

Mr Riaz Haq and other pakistanis like him think that Mujib is despicable , why? because bengalis voted for him,because Mujib did not compromise with killer Yahia-Bhutto gang, did not betray his voters and made them slaves of punjabis for another 100 years? FYI, In an online poll by BBC radio service, Mujib was voted as best the bengali ever born, beating out Tagore and othr prominent bengali personalities.

RiazHaq,
We understand that you are frustrated as your army used up all the aid money to build suicide bombers and their own fortune. Now you are venting out this frustration at chowk , here is more frustrating news for you, right now
1 BD Taka = 1.19 Pak Rupee, keep on pity us.

Re: # 352
How convenient! Just pointing out more bad news in the current refugee crisis next door while ignoring the daily routine catastrophe in Shining India! Smell your veggies. They are all rotten.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 351 Riaz

Charming! Get used to the 'emergency' soon. It is becoming the new 'normal'. Today's NYT:

...Spurned in much of its Arab heartland, Al Qaeda lately has shifted its attentions to Pakistan, where it still enjoys high approval ratings, bringing the suicide bomb to its old allies the Taliban. “It’s an easy thing to say that bin Laden is feeling increasingly marginalized, and support in the Mideast for Al Qaeda’s aims is at an all-time low, but new clusters of Arab militants are re-gathering in Pakistan,� Mr. Miller said. Significantly, Mr. bin Laden’s audio statement last week focused on Pakistan’s efforts, approved of by President Obama, to drive the Taliban out of Swat Valley, less than a day’s drive from Pakistan’s capital and its main nuclear research laboratories...

Re: # 348
This is an emergency situation, part of an overwhelming refugee crisis, where the relief effort has not caught with the increasing needs. Unless the situation improves soon, this failure could become the cause of loss to the Taliban.

But let's put this in context. Such scenes are repeated thousands of times every day in Shining India, where 6000 children a day die from hunger.

Watch this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rr4_r2Omo2k&eurl
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 338
You are nothing but a hateful bigot. Quoting lines out of context to draw your despicable conclusions is the cheapest and oldest trick known to man. Learn about Islam and glorious history of Muslims as written by thoughtful authors/historians like Karen Armstrong (A Catholic nun) William Dalrymple (a British Christian) or Abba Eban (an Israeli Jew).

You ought to be ashamed of yourself for your attacks on a peaceful and tolerant religion you know nothing about. People such as you wouldn't even survive to attack Islam today if Muslims were not such benevolent rulers of India.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 347 Riaz the ill-informed

Read, "War and Secession: Pakistan, India, and the Creation of Bangladesh by Richard Sisson and Leo E. Rose"

It gives me no pleasure to report this, except to score a point with Riaz.

The Nawabzadah had claimed a few weeks ago that the 'refugees in Swat were well looked after', as part of his daily diatribe against hunger in India. Of course, he was just releasing hot air, without verifying the facts on the ground. Well, now the reality is coming out about the misery in the refugee camps - the largest exodus of people in Pakistan since Partition, and it isn't pretty. Every time there is a crisis in Pakistan, the rulers head out with begging bowls in hand (be it the Kashmir quake or Swat). This is old hat now:

Beneath the bed of 10-year-old Abdul Hadi lies vomit and urine. His father stands by helpless.

"He has had a high temperature for four days. No one has given him anything. They just say, take him to Peshawar," he says.

The father has covered the soiled brown plastic sheet on the boy's mattress with a bright red one from home. "We have nothing but how could I let him lie on this?" he asks, picking up a bloodstained sheet.

Abdul Wadood, a refugee from Swat, watches his grandfather lying with his stomach tube unused...
...As Ahmed walks the dark hallways, he apologizes for the garbage under the beds and shoved into the corners. He says the cleaning staff left early in the war. In the one operating theater, bloodied bandages stuff plastic garbage cans and an empty bottle is stuck beneath the two operating tables.
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5j8LmnSXaRFj3EOtBS OOyPItWKkZgD98L9PM80

"...There is no running water, no electricity, and food is scarce. There is no fuel left for generators and most medical facilities in the district are no longer functioning..."
http://www.upi.com/Top_News/2009/06/01/Swat-refugees-f acing-dire-hardships/UPI-66531243858955/

Re: # 343

The facts are now out, if you bother to find them. Mujib was a RAW agent. He was despicable. He, along with Bhutto and Indira Gandhi, were the main culprits of the calamity that struck you in 1971. Pak and Indian generals were no more than trigger men for the gang of three.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 344
I draw no pleasure from the suffering of my Bangladeshi brethren. In fact, I pity you, whatever your name is, for your personal servitude to Indian bigots.

It is you who needs an education. Check your facts before you make a complete fool of yourself.


Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 340 Shankar

"...Guys self esteem is pretty damn low..."

Shankar, you are the resident Chowk Shrink. Can you please do a psycho-analysis on Riaz? Beyond his self-esteem, what else is wrong with the Nawabzadah?

RiazHaq #293
check some fact and figures before you write anything about Bangladesh,in some social indicators like infant mortality rate, literacy rate,percentage of female students in schools, we are better than Pakistan. Right now BD currency Taka is stronger than Pakistani Rupee.

Bnagladesh was born against the will of USA , Pak army killed our best intellectuals , professors, journalists, film makers and musicians to cripple the nation. we got a war devastated country with all infrastructure gone. considering all these facts, we have done better than our former rulers.

BTW, Bangladesh gets very little aid from donors now a days, whatever we got so far was spent to build the infrastructure, we don't use it to attack the neighbours, kill people and make refugees and suicide bombers.

SO DO NOT TAKE ANY PLEASURE THINKING THAT BANGLADESH IS WORSE THAN PAKISTAN. I am from post 71 generation and we are extremely grateful to my parents' generation who did the right thing at the right time.

After reading the comments by Pakistanis, its not difficult to understand why the country is in trouble now.hatred against the bengalis is so deep rooted that Pakistanis try to justify the genocide saying Mujib and bengalis were RAW agents.Finally India has to be blamed for taking care of the refugees. This is the result of being rules by some war criminals since 1971.

ENOUGH:

The board was about Talibanization but as usual it turns into an India-Pakistan match. Hey, both are pathetic!

Bhokay nein bhokay ki gaand maari donoon baihosh ho gaey.

Re: # 302

Riaz:

"...Re: # 294
Anil,
You are spewing out nonsense as usual by diverting attention from Modi's heinous crimes,..."

Please cool down, to have an intelligent discussion.

I do not discuss Modi. He is a criminal who needs to be dealt, simple.

I am pointing to your hypocrisy and shameless defense of perpetrators of genocide, which you are trying skirt by launching personal attacks on me, just as Masadi does.

First thing, you should stop splurging on early morning delights from Mumbai railroads, unless you want them in breakfast plate, especially when you can get even better ones served to you right onto your breakfast plate from your favorite city that houses world's largest slum.

Atleast you have descended from high ascendancy of calling me a "hindu bigot" to something to do with India shining or whatever. I thank you for it.

Let me say that yes, I am bullish about Today's India. Probably far more than you are bullish about your Today's Pakistan.

The depression that it generates in you is no reason to resort to absurdities of macro-micro nonsensical comparisons, or humiliation of butchers of Bengal as their punishment being the punishment fitting crimes they committed, or play with English words "may have become a Governor".

This makes you look like a joker, that I know you are not, very alike the people you are fighting. No different, please do not drive yourself nuts over it. Instead try to create reasons to be, and become as bullish about Today's Pakistan as I am about Today's India.

has anybody wondered why compared to Palestine, the support that Pakistan has got from the Muslim countries is pathetic.
OIC "resolutions" can be used as toilet paper. NONE of the other muslim countries have threatened India with any kind of sanctions or protests.

Its because Pakistan's historical behavior has been so pathetic, that it has absolutely no leg to stand on. I think the only people who have publicly supported Pakistan on Kashmir is Al-qeeda!

It frustrates guys like Riaz, who's sole mission is to scour the internet to highlight anti-India articles & anti-hindu. Then he points to the same articles & quotes a zillion times. Then he posts it as an i-log. I guess he feels if we hear it enough time, we'll buy his bs.

Then he has the balls to accuse others of being bigots, chauviniusts, confused & cynical.

Guys self esteem is pretty damn low.

Man ought to look at a mirror once in a while!:)

Riaz,

{{In the age of the Internet, you have a lot of choice of authentic news sources. But you have to make the effort to find out.}}

Yeah the ones that put India in a bad light & put Pakistan in a good light. I'm sure its a lot pof effort. Burns you guys that most news about Pak (in the West) is bad & vice versa for India.

Could some Islamic scholar explain this:

Examples of hate speech:

“Muslims are the vilest of animals…�

“Show mercy to one another, but be ruthless to Muslims�

“How perverse are Muslims!�

“Strike off the heads of Muslims, as well as their fingertips�

“Fight those Muslims who are near to you�

“Muslim mischief makers should be murdered or crucified�



Examples of peaceful, decent and divine speech:

Sura (8:55) - Surely the vilest of animals in Allah's sight are those who disbelieve

Sura (48:29) - Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. And those with him are hard (ruthless) against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves

Sura (9:30) - And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah... Allah (Himself) fights against them. How perverse are they!

Sura (8:12) - I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them

Sura (9:123) - O you who believe! Fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness

Sura (5:33) - The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement

#324 Posted by madrassaAlumnus

I have one question for scholars of that great religion, Islam, here on Chowk. Why is it, given Islam's obvious natural superiority, and "chosen" status with "Allah", that they keep losing everywhere? I mean, take Indo-Pak cricket for example - the "martial" Paki "race" is whipped by the infidels with ease - why is that?

Is it because:

a) Pakis are not islamic enough?
b) Pakis will EVENTUALLY win - maybe after 1000 years?
c) Eventually the whole world will be cutloos, so it doesn't matter in the long run?

Maybe someone can enlighten me?

#335 Posted by RiazHaq

"India is the biggest beggar in the world, having received over 100 billion dollars in aid since the 1950s. "

C'mon, churn out Pakistan's figure also during the same period.

Re: # 329

India is the biggest beggar in the world, having received over 100 billion dollars in aid since the 1950s. And yet, it has the largest number of poor and hungry of any nation.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 331

No, the only difference is that the insurgents in India do not threaten US/Western interests directly, as Pakistani insurgents do.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

How old is the author of this article?

Riyaz-hole, why did India and Pureland come to war 3 times in in the past 10 years?

1. Kargil
2. Parliament Attack
3. Mumbai

Remember Inida has a no first use policy for nuclear weapons in place. It is "Pureland" that does not. So, you and your ilk are welcome to try to use nuclear weapons. India will only respond.

You are worried about farmers committing suicides in India. Seriously dude you got to be kidding me. You should be more worried about your ilk committing suicide bombings in Islam-ain't-bad.

Wait, you are sitting here in the US and spouting all this bullshit. It is typical. But don't worry I will make sure the Indian community in your neck of the woods hears about your views.

#306 Posted by RiazHaq

"You are forgetting your own multiple insurgencies that cover about half of the Indian provinces and almost all corners of India"

This is bound to be there as long as Pakistan and China would be in existence. The only difference is that we don't go to USA with a begging bowl to counter this.

#302 Posted by RiazHaq

Apna ghar sambhalo mian!!

#295 Posted by bubba

"Pakis are the modern day beggars of the worst kind."

There is this dialog in "Andhen" (Paresh Rawal)

"Suit boot pehen ke brief case leke hawai jahaj mein bheekh mangoonga"

Suits Pakistan very well. huh??

Re: # 323

Pew - Why don't you understand ? All stories that you pick from Western media about India are false. However, all stories that he picks about Pakistan from Western media are correct. He has quoted a NYTimes story about Pakistan multiple times in last 1 hr. He thinks that one is not western media propoganda.

Don't you get it Pew.

This is what he said in #292:

Here is an excerpt from yesterday's NY Times report talking about public anger against the Taliban:

A year ago, the Pakistani public was deeply divided over what to do about its spreading insurgency. Some saw the Taliban militants as fellow Muslims and native sons who simply wanted Islamic law, and many opposed direct military action against them.

But history moves quickly in Pakistan, and after months of televised Taliban cruelties, broken promises and suicide attacks, there is a spreading sense — apparent in the news media, among politicians and the public — that many Pakistanis are finally turning against the Taliban.

The shift is still tentative and difficult to quantify. But it seems especially profound among the millions of Pakistanis directly threatened by the Taliban advance from the tribal areas into more settled parts of Pakistan, like the Swat Valley. Their anger at the Taliban now outweighs even their frustration with the military campaign that has crushed their houses and killed their relatives.

“It’s the Taliban that’s responsible for our misery,� said Fakir Muhammed, a refugee from Swat, who, like many who had experienced Taliban rule firsthand, welcomed the military campaign to push the insurgents out.

The growing support for the fight against the Taliban could be an important turning point for Pakistan, whose divisions about its Islamic militancy seemed at times to imperil the state itself.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

#291 Posted by nb

"your statement is somewhat disingenuous. You have justified army excesses at every stage."

This Riaz guy must be the author of the "wolf and the lamb" story.

Re: # 323

For the western zealots, democracy is an article of faith. It is like religious orthodoxy. They can not allow the abject failures of democracy to be seen by the rest of the world....so they lie about India.

So the western media hire and promote people like Farid Zakaria as mouthpieces and spin-meisters. As an Indian Muslim, Zakaraia is a very useful symbol for promoting the mantra of secular democracy. You'd never hear Zakaria talk about India's failures. He only focuses on India's accomplishments.

In his new book, The Post-American World, Zakaria describes India as a "powerful package" and claims it has been "peaceful, stable, and prosperous" since 1997 - a decade in which India and Pakistan came close to nuclear war, tens of thousands of Indian farmers took their own lives, Maoist insurgencies erupted across large parts of the country, and Hindu nationalists in Gujarat murdered more than 2,000 Muslims.

As to the real news, it's easy to find it, if you are not a passive consumer of whatever the media put out. In the age of the Internet, you have a lot of choice of authentic news sources. But you have to make the effort to find out.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

#285 Posted by RiazHaq

You must be a real dud to understand my interact the way you did.

I never said Modi was innocent. I only tried to explain the restraints of democracy in which criminals escape when ensuring that innocents are not persecuted.

Also, Modi did not wake up one fine morning and ordered persecution of muslims. However much you wish to forget Godhra carnage incident, that was the ignitor of the Guj violence and the muslims were the culprits.

Re: # 317
What happened in East Pakistan in 1971 was not a spontaneous popular uprising. It was carefully crafted and managed from New Delhi. India's RAW was heavily involved in East Pakistan since the 1960s, fomenting trouble against West Pakistan, according to Federation of American Scientists who tracks RAW's activities. RAW was also involved in training and arming LTTE.

Here's an excerpt from an FASB report:

RAW has a long history of activity in Bangladesh, supporting both secular forces and the area's Hindu minority. The involvement of RAW in East Pakistan is said to date from the 1960s, when RAW supported Mujibur Rahman, leading up to his general election victory in 1970. RAW also provided training and arms to the Bangladeshi freedom fighters known as Mukti Bahini. RAW's aid was instrumental in Bangladesh's gaining independence from Pakistan in 1971.

During the course of its investigation the Jain Commission received testimony on the official Indian support to the various Sri Lankan Tamil armed groups in Tamil Nadu. From 1981, RAW and the Intelligence Bureau established a network of as many as 30 training bases for these groups in India. Centers were also established at the high-security military installation of Chakrata, near Dehra Dun, and in the Ramakrishna Puram area of New Delhi. This clandestine support to the Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam (LTTE), some of whom were on the payroll of RAW, was later suspended. Starting in late 1986 the Research and Analysis Wing focused surveillance on the LTTE which was expanding ties with Tamil Nadu separatist groups. Rajiv Gandhi sought to establish good relations with the LTTE, even after the Indian Peace Keeping Force [IPKF] experience in Sri Lanka. But the Indian intelligence community failed to accurately assess the character of the LTTE and its orientation India and its political leaders. The LTTE assassination of Rajiv Gandhi was apparently motivated by fears of a possible re-induction of the Indian Peace Keeping Force (IPKF) in Sri Lanka and a crackdown on the LTTE network in Tamil Nadu.

http://www.fas.org/irp/world/india/raw/index.html


Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 319 Riaz

"...western pro-India, pro-democracy propaganda that is common in the Western world...he western propaganda machine..."

So, where does one get the 'real news'? In Nawa-i-Waqt? or Taliban Times?

Why would the West be interested in 'propaganda' for India? What is your conspiracy theory?

Raiz Haq, if you have any lady household members, make sure they don't elope and if they do, your compatriot Talibans don't find out about it.

Who knows what may happen to them -- of course, it is somehow all Modi's fault.

Riaz Haq sahib, I hope you are continuing to keep those eyes covered.

The following NEVER happened -- and if it did, it was all Modi's fault!

Remember -- no peeking!

Man, woman stoned to death in Pakistan
Published: April 2, 2008 at 6:58 AM

ISLAMABAD, Pakistan, April 2 (UPI) -- A man and a woman, sentenced to death by a Pakistani tribal court after being found guilty of adultery, reportedly were stoned to death by Taliban militants.

The stoning was supposedly carried out Monday in the Khwezai-Baezai tribal area, Dawn newspaper reported. The area is part of the Federally Administered Tribal Areas along Pakistan's border with Afghanistan.

It was first such reported incident of a stoning by the militants, who usually put the accused before firing squads, the report said.

A spokesman for the militants claimed the woman, who was married and living in Peshawar, had eloped with the accused man last month. The spokesman alleged a complaint was received from the woman's family that she had been abducted but it was later found by Taliban members who captured the couple that she had eloped with the man.

The spokesman said the tribal court found them guilty of adultery and sentenced them to death by stoning, the Dawn report said.

The woman's body was buried in the area while the man's body was given to his relatives.

© 2008 United Press International, Inc. All Rights Reserved.

Re: # 319 Riaz nawabzadeh

"...The western propaganda machine looks at a small section of India's population, mostly urban middle class, while ignoring the real rural India which is essentially about two centuries behind...."

To toone rural India ko dekhne ka thekaa liya whua hai?

Re: # 314
Yes, he sang India's praises as part of Bush policy. An extension of western pro-India, pro-democracy propaganda that is common in the Western world.

Indian media's headlines about the newly-minted Indian billionaires need to bring sharper focus on the growing rich-poor gap in India. On its inside pages, The Times of India last year reported Communist Party leader Sitaram Yechury's as saying that "on the one hand, 36 Indian billionaires constituted 25% of India’s GDP while on the other, 70% of Indians had to do with Rs 20 a day". "A farmer commits suicide every 30 minutes. The gap between the two Indias is widening," he said. Over 1500 farmers committed suicide last year in the central state of Chhattisgarh alone.

It's truly a tale of two Indias.

The western propaganda machine looks at a small section of India's population, mostly urban middle class, while ignoring the real rural India which is essentially about two centuries behind.


Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

There is no more pathetic Pakistani than a Pakistani who himself enjoys good life in the West and tries to shamelessly cover up the crimes of the creeps "back home" who are responsible for such utter devastation and destruction of human life!

What a chutiya!! I wonder how many others are like that.

#281 Posted by RiazHaq

"Indian intelligence and military have total responsibility for the carnage Mukti perpetrated on India's behalf on innocent non-Bengalis in East Pakistan. "

Still the question remains - Who started the genocide? Is retaliation a natural human instinct?

"India took full advantage of the serious mistakes of Pakistanis "

Did you imagine a situation where lacs of bengali refugees were pouring into India and disrupting already fragile economy of India? When you acknowledge that Pakistan committed serious mistakes, you should also accept that what India did was right, given the "friendly neighbourly relations" Pakistan maintained with India. Did you expect India to be a mute spectator?

" being totally India-locked and surviving in abject poverty at India's mercy. "

Were they wallowing in wealth under Pakistani rule? Were they not muslims? Why were they mass murdered when they had also opted for your Pakistan?

Here's UNICEF's assessment of India on UN MDG goal 1:

Child malnutrition rates are extraordinarily high and progress has been moderate. Achieving the MDG on hunger will require interventions of great magnitude in disadvantaged states.

* 47% of young children in India are malnourished, and up to a third of the world's undernourished children are Indian. There are large variations in incidence of malnutrition as shown in the map below.
* Girls are more affected than boys. About one-third of adult women are underweight.
* Under-nutrition begins early. Up to 25% of infants are born with low birth weight, predisposing them to under-nutrition and increased vulnerability to disease throughout life.

* Vitamin and mineral deficiencies are also extremely common in India. Some 74% of children below three years of age and 52% of adult women are anaemic. Anaemia is also common amongst adolescent girls, affecting between 70-80%.
* Only about half of the salt consumed is adequately iodized, though there has been progress in certain states (see Child Development and Nutrition Programme).
* Vitamin A supplementation coverage has risen from 17% in 1998-99 to 51 % in 2004-05.

Source: http://www.unicef.org/india/overview_3702.htm
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

#313

I love that "without any pressure" part! I am sure everything under the Taleban is a labor of love -- perhaps even Riaz Haq sahib's valiant contributions here!!

Re: # 312 Riaz-zadeh

What about Secretary Henry Paulson? Is he deluded, too?

Riaz Haq sahib, please don't read the following excerpt. Too much pleasure is not good for your health!

Taliban flog woman, cut off two men's hands

By Sayed Salahuddin

KABUL, Feb 27,1998 (Reuters) - Afghanistan's Taliban Islamic authorities gave a woman 100 lashes for adultery and amputated the right hands of two men for theft in Kabul on Friday as thousands of looked on.

A Taleban speaker read out the verdicts of a religious court, saying that Sohaila, a single woman from Kabul, had admitted adultery.

He said the two men -- Hamidullah of Paktiya province and Habibullah from Kapisa province -- had confessed their sins without any pressure.

The sentences were carried out in Kabul's sports stadium, where more than 20,000 residents of the war-shattered capital gathered to watch.

Sohaila was brought to the stadium in a car accompanied by two other women wearing the all-enveloping Burqa veil. A Taleban fighter lashed Sohaila 100 times with a roughly one-metre (three foot three inch) whip as a speaker chanted Islamic slogans.

``Thanks to the Taleban, the army of God, that we can protect the honour of people,'' the speaker said.

``Thanks to God that we are followers of God not of the West,'' he said.

According to Islamic law enforced by the Taleban, an unmarried adulterer should be flogged 100 times, but a married adulterer should be stoned to death.

``Certainly as a result of these punishments, the extent of crime will reduce in Kabul,'' said the Taleban governor in Kabul, Abdul Manan Niyazi.

Sohaila walked away in no apparent pain or injury after the lashing that was administered relatively lightly.

Taleban officials said that the man who had illegal sex with Sohaila had escaped arrest.

``This was only to expose her and humiliate her in public and it gave no pain,'' Niyazi said of the flogging.

The two men, convicted of stealing goods worth 19 million afghanis ($500) from a Kabul shop, were brought in a Japanese pick-up truck and were anaesthetised before their right hands were cut off from the wrist with a sharp lance.

Three doctors from the Public Health Ministry, who had covered their faces, carried out the amputation after the convicts became unconscious and lay on the damp ground.

A Taleban fighter carried one amputated hand around and said: ``Anyone committing theft or adultery will face such punishment. Look at this, it is the hand of one of the thieves.''

Friday's was the second public amputation of thieves' hands in Kabul in a week. Last Friday, the Taleban chose a school as the venue for the punishment.

On Wednesday, the Taleban ordered the execution of three men for sodomy in the southern town of Kandahar, southern Afghanistan. They were ordered to be buried alive under a pile of stones and a wall was pushed on top of them by a tank.

Their lives were to be spared if they survived for 30 minutes and were still alive when the stones were removed.

More punishments would be carried out in public, Niyazi said.

The Taleban, who seized control of Kabul in 1996, have enforced strict Islamic code in the more than two-thirds of Afghanistan it controls and have cracked down on crime.

The Taleban administration, whose attitude towards human rights has come under sharp criticism in the West, is recognised only by three countries -- Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates.

Re: # 308
It's strange coming from an Indian whose country ranks near the bottom on all social indicators. Only a completely deluded individual like you can make such statements.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Riaz Haq's point is simple. What happened in the then East Pakistan was Pakistan's niji-maamla. Everybody else, hands off!

Make sure you lock up that Hamidur Rahman Report where nobody can see it. It is not a nice thing to make Mr. Riaz crap with fear!!

Hey Riaz Nawabzadeh:

Here is another candle under your rear end:

(Others, please ignore)

Remarks by Secretary Henry M. Paulson, Jr. on the Economic Power and Promise of India before The Council on Foreign Relations
http://www.ustreas.gov/press/releases/hp636.htm

...India is a vibrant nation, whose strength lies in its commitment to equal rights – and to speech, religious and economic freedoms that enrich the lives of all citizens. India is not only the world's largest democracy; it is also a secular, pluralistic society, committed to inclusive growth.

India's GDP grew nearly 10 percent in 2006, compared to the world average of five and a half percent. India's economic reforms have taken root, and by accelerating them, the government can help ensure that India's growth rate will be, as projected, at least 8 percent for the foreseeable future. I am optimistic about India's prospects.

Guys - Please leave Riaz alone - he is correct after all. Bangladesh was not a genocide against any minority ethnic population.


It was a genocide committed against a majority ethnic population of a country. The first of its kind.

Re: # 306
Nope, but Bangladesh is better off than Pakistan

Riaz Haq is right -- the Modi dude needs to be taken to task -- and if you disagree, Mr. Haq knows exactly how to spam you!

But for the deep insight and clear vision and the utmost secularism of exfatriates like Riaz Haq, Pakistan would have sunk to very low levels long ago -- instead of floating high above the clouds like it has been doing recently.

Repeat after Riaz Haq!

There is no Taliban in Pakistan!

There is no Taliban in Pakistan!

There is no Taliban in Pakistan!

There!! don't you feel better!

Riaz Haq Zindabaad!! Riaz Haq for Pakistani president!!

Re: # 299
You are forgetting your own multiple insurgencies that cover about half of the Indian provinces and almost all corners of India. Does that mean you are worse off than Bangladesh?
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 281 Riaz

"...being totally India-locked and surviving in abject poverty at India's mercy..."

Ha! ha! ha! ha! That's a good one (almost - you are bottom fishing now). Shows how dumb you are!

Check with your friendly neighborhood Bangladeshi who remembers 1965 and Ayub's Operation Gibraltar (I love these names that your GHQ whizzes come up with). Ask your friendly Bangladeshi how insecure they felt when Ayub provoked a war with India and left East Pakistan completely undefended.

Re: # 298
Clutching at the straws again? Your arguments are drowning so you start to nitpick some insignificant little pieces of data which have no basis in fact.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 283 Riaz

"...western odes to India's democracy...."

Come on... you can do better than that! You can do a selective cut and paste. Just do a google search - you are an ustaad now at it.

Re: # 294
Anil,
You are spewing out nonsense as usual by diverting attention from Modi's heinous crimes, a person who is still in power and still powerful and capable of repeating his terrible crimes against humanity. Thousands of survivors of his crime spree are still living in fear in refuge camps.

You and others who talk about Shining India should be deeply ashamed of your tactics to draw attention away from Modi by talking about events and history of the 1970s, and not talk about the criminals of Guajarat 2002 who are a clear and present danger to Indian citizens as we speak.

If you continue like this, I wont be surprised to see more mass murders of minorities in India, a repeat of Gujarat 2002 and Orissa 2008.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 298

"..number of years girls spend in Pakistan has declined. .."

number of years girls spend in SCHOOL IN Pakistan has declined.

Re: # 297

Hey seeker miaN, didn't I say the Pakistani peoople are not Talibanese -- so you got a problem with that?! What can be more topical?

Re: # 286 Riaz the 'data' expert

"Where is your data?"

a) War in Pakistan's Northwest
b) Bangladesh at peace within and without

Riaz:

You have fashioned a language that is hollow. You quote best macro indicators of Pakistan with the worst of India, and believe in your comparison. Look at Pakistan's micro indicators, marriagable age of girls in Pakistan has declined, number of years girls spend in Pakistan has declined. Per capita spending on education is among the lowest, even compared to Islamic countries (probably better than Somalia). Empowerment of females is a key driver in any society, Obama spelled it out too in Egypt.

You macro-micro comparison, gives you a high like a drug addict who forgets the pain. These are all short lived, my friend. But then you do not need to take my words and stay in the state of macro-mini drug addiction.

you all are going off topic.
pls. write your comments on current article

Riaz Haq miaN,

Thak you for your deep insight into the Pakistani political scene. You need to run for office in that country -- I think the poor, hapless, innocent Pakistanis can really benefit from your deep incite into the Pakistani political seen. I have every hope that the poor, hapless, innocent Pakistanis who have nothing to do with the Talibans (evryone knows there is no such thig as Pakistani Taliban) and get blamed for every crime of terrorism all over the world -- those poor hapless Pakistanis can immensely benefit from your dip insight and expanded breats of noledge of the highly complex Pakistani politiccal sin.

So do consider running for office in Pakistan. I am absolutely sure you will harvest more votes than, for example, Mantolives (or even me).

Best of luck in your political aspirations -- you are the pride of Pakistan! Riaz Haq Zindabaj!

Re: # 255 Posted by shankar on June 5, 2009 8:11:34 pm

shankarjee,

{Keep going like this & Riaz will give you the ultimate insult--hindu bigot.}

That is all pakis have these days. Most of them are corrupt to the core, and intellectually insignificant in modern world. All they have left is change the conversation to establish their own lack of self-esteem. Pakis have nothing to give the modern world, except trouble. And then pakis go begging to the a-raebs.

A-raebs are buying thousands of good agricultural lands from paki ruling elite, to feed their own a-raeb population first. And then pakis would incite their own population against the west to get more USD.

What a shameless society pakiland has become. It is amazing that pakis do not get it. Pakis are the modern day beggars of the worst kind.

Re: # 290

Riaz:

"to nb: ... while I am acknowledging the crimes committed by Pak generals. Now can you see the difference? "

You are also saying that they were humiliated, and defy intelligence of the reader with play of your words "may have been governor". You have also said that they are now dead.

Are you saying the punishment handed out to butechers of Bengal befitted their crime? Criminals may be dead, but crimes and non-punishments will not, do you kniw that? You can white wash the history books taught in Pakistan, but cannot remove the evidence from annals of history all over the world and in other South Asian countries.

Re: # 284
Bangladesh lags behind Pakistan (even India) in almost every category including per capita income, hunger, poverty, disease, etc.

The only thing that has prevented it from becoming what Kissinger predicted in 1971 would be "international basket case" is massive foreign aid, foreign remittances from overseas workers, various NGOs, and Muhammad Younus, the Nobel Laureate and pioneer of microfinance who started Grameen Bank.

Yunus has single-handedly done more for Bangladesh than all of Bangladeshi politicians and government and so-called "heroes of independence" in providing relief to the poor and hungry of Bangladesh.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Here is an excerpt from yesterday's NY Times report talking about public anger against the Taliban:

A year ago, the Pakistani public was deeply divided over what to do about its spreading insurgency. Some saw the Taliban militants as fellow Muslims and native sons who simply wanted Islamic law, and many opposed direct military action against them.

But history moves quickly in Pakistan, and after months of televised Taliban cruelties, broken promises and suicide attacks, there is a spreading sense — apparent in the news media, among politicians and the public — that many Pakistanis are finally turning against the Taliban.

The shift is still tentative and difficult to quantify. But it seems especially profound among the millions of Pakistanis directly threatened by the Taliban advance from the tribal areas into more settled parts of Pakistan, like the Swat Valley. Their anger at the Taliban now outweighs even their frustration with the military campaign that has crushed their houses and killed their relatives.

“It’s the Taliban that’s responsible for our misery,� said Fakir Muhammed, a refugee from Swat, who, like many who had experienced Taliban rule firsthand, welcomed the military campaign to push the insurgents out.

The growing support for the fight against the Taliban could be an important turning point for Pakistan, whose divisions about its Islamic militancy seemed at times to imperil the state itself.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

I haven't proclaimed his innocence. I just told you commissions are still looking for information to use against him. Personally, I'd like them to find something. As long as they don't, he will be free to stand for election.
Your statement is somewhat disingenuous. You have justified army excesses at every stage.

Re: # 287

You are proclaiming Modi's innocence and defending him in your comments, while I am acknowledging the crimes committed by Pak generals. Now can you see the difference?

If you still can't see the difference, let me just say that "there are none so blind as those who WILL not see".
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 286 Was it meant for you?

Taliban has strong their roots in some very powered and impacting Departments in last decade.
Some of them are
1.Ulema
2.Journalist
3.Politician
4.Army and Govt.departments.

certainly this is a big game which has huge funding to above departments and terrorist war budget.

This is first time the violation of Agreement of Nizamay Adal has exposed the real picture of taliban in general public which turn table.

This is also last chance for nation to get rid of taliban cancer from Pakistan.
Nation should join hand to support Pakistan Army and lift their Moral high.
I hope this Operation would cut off this cancer from Pakistan.
Some ignorant and foolish still insisting for negotiation.
These are not even human being, how we can negotiate with savage animals??
pls be Realistic! this is our war not us.
these people are not killing American in Pakistan but Pakistani and Muslim are their targets and victims.

#285 Should you be treated as an accomplice of the Pakistani generals who raped and killed in Bangladesh then?

Re: # 284
Words are cheap. Where is your data?
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 274

If you believe Modi is innocent, you are indirectly a participant in his crimes against humanity. You should be treated as an accomplice of Modi's.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Bangladesh is doing relatively better than Pakistan, in some areas much than India , and much better than it would have had it been independent, and much more better than some of the emirates of Pakistan like NWFP, Baluchistan etc.

Speaking to Bangladeshi's here, almost all to the single man and woman (young and old alike) say they are better off now than before.

The main reason Bangladesh took sometime to come up was the utter and total destruction of their intellectual capital - which currently is getting to be better than many other countries.

Of course, the successors of Khilji learnt their lessons in Nalanda and Taxilla, the results of which we are seeing even today.

Re: # 278

Such western odes to India's democracy may boost your urban middle-class Indian ego, but they have not helped the vast majority of poor and hungry Indians, who still don't know if or when there next modest meal will come from. Some of these are not even accurate. The fact is there are 5% more poor in India today than there were in early 1990s when reform began, according to UK's department of international development (the British equivalent of US AID).
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

There were always some Jamaati types who were against the liberation of Bangladesh. Other Bangladeshis are still happy to be an independent country. You remember the grass-eating statement? Bangladeshis can have that kind of pride too.

Re: # 275
Mukti Bahini was a front for India in East Pakistan.
It was organized, armed and trained in India.
Indian intelligence and military have total responsibility for the carnage Mukti perpetrated on India's behalf on innocent non-Bengalis in East Pakistan.

India took full advantage of the serious mistakes of Pakistanis but Bangladeshis are now, almost 40 years later, paying a heavy price for it, being totally India-locked and surviving in abject poverty at India's mercy. At least some Bangladeshis are now beginning to see the cost of their "independence" from Pakistan. They also see deep hostility against Bangladeshi workers in India.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Riaz is right in one instance, albeit in a limited way. Unlike Modi who is still a potential PM in India, Pakistani Generals who led in East Pakistan are indeed the object of contempt and humiliation in Pakistan. But the reason why they are held in contempt is not because they killed and innocent civilians but because they lost the war to the cowardly hindus.

#256 Because several independent and Congress-led commissions have investigated him, and not found evidence against him, and another is investigating him at the moment. He can't be hung just because some people don't like him. You are welcome to assist in finding evidence against him, people have looked hard and are still looking.

Nawabzahed Riaz:

Pay special attention to this passage below in #277:

Whatever its current woes, India has remarkable potential. Its middle class is still dwarfed by that of China, but it will balloon over the next few decades. A May 2007 McKinsey Global Institute study estimated that between 2005 and 2025, average real household disposable income in India will nearly triple, the Indian middle class will swell from roughly 50 million people to around 583 million, and the country's consumer market will grow from the 12th largest in the world to the fifth largest.

Goldman Sachs reckons that India could have a larger economy than the United States by 2050. As Goldman economists Jim O'Neill and Tushar Poddar observed in a June 2008 paper, the United Nations has projected that India's population will increase by around 310 million between 2000 and 2020. "India will in effect create the equivalent of another U.S.," wrote O'Neill and Poddar, "and for those of working age between 2000 and 2020, India will create the equivalent of the combined working population of France, Germany, Italy, and the U.K. We estimate another 140 million people will migrate to Indian cities by 2020."

India's long-term progress is stunning. The 2007 McKinsey study pointed out that, "in effect, there are 431 million fewer poor people in India today than there would have been if poverty had remained at its 1985 rate." There is no question that "India's economic reforms, and the increased growth that has resulted, have been the most successful anti-poverty program in the country's history."

Hope the fire under your rear end is burning bright now:)

Riaz: Here is another one to light a fire under your bottom...
Other Chowkies, please ignore and pardon my cut and paste job

http://www.aei.org/article/29202

The Importance of India
By Duncan Currie | The Daily Standard
Thursday, January 15, 2009

Bush deserves credit for boosting relations with New Delhi.


Bill Emmott, a former editor of the Economist magazine, has written that George W. Bush's "bold initiative" to strengthen U.S. relations with India "may eventually be judged by historians as a move of great strategic importance and imagination." It "may turn out to be the most significant foreign policy achievement of the Bush administration," says historian Sugata Bose, an India expert at Harvard. Bilateral ties had improved toward the end of the Clinton administration, thanks largely to the efforts of Strobe Talbott, then serving as deputy secretary of state, and Jaswant Singh, then serving as Indian foreign minister. But "the big jump in relations came under President Bush," says Columbia economist Arvind Panagariya, author of the 2008 book India: The Emerging Giant.

By far the most controversial element of Bush's India policy was the U.S.-India civilian nuclear cooperation agreement, which Congress approved this past fall.

By far the most controversial element of Bush's India policy was the U.S.-India civilian nuclear cooperation agreement, which Congress approved this past fall. It was announced in 2005 but then delayed for years by opposition from Democrats in Washington, left-wing parties in New Delhi, and an Indian nuclear establishment that was skeptical of U.S. intentions. "The determination of the White House was very important," says Panagariya, who believes the Bush administration played a "crucial" role in convincing the Indian government to fight for the deal.

Critics of the nuclear pact "really exaggerated the risks to the non-proliferation regime," says Stephen Cohen, an India expert at the Brookings Institution. As part of the accord, India has accepted new international safeguards on its nuclear program. In turn, the United States has lifted a longstanding ban on U.S.-India civilian nuclear trade. Cohen predicts that the deal will help New Delhi pursue a more sensible arms control policy.

Beyond the nuclear pact, the United States and India have also upgraded their broader strategic cooperation. After the 2004 Asian tsunami, they launched a joint relief mission with Japan and Australia. In June 2005, they signed a new defense framework which enhanced bilateral military ties and stated that "the United States and India agree on the vital importance of political and economic freedom, democratic institutions, the rule of law, security, and opportunity around the world. The leaders of our two countries are building a U.S.-India strategic partnership in pursuit of these principles and interests." In September 2007, India hosted and participated in multilateral naval exercises that included ships from the United States, Japan, Australia, and Singapore.

To appreciate where U.S.-India relations are today, recall how frosty they were during much of the latter half of the 20th century. The first prime minister of independent India, Jawaharlal Nehru, who served from 1947 to 1964, was an avowed socialist and champion of the Non-Aligned Movement. Throughout the Cold War, Indian scholar Ramachandra Guha writes in his 2007 book, India After Gandhi, the United States "tilted markedly toward" Pakistan while India "tilted somewhat toward" the Soviet Union. (During the 1971 India-Pakistan war, Richard Nixon groused to Henry Kissinger that "the Indians are no goddamn good.") It was not until the late 1990s, notes Guha, "that the United States moved toward a position of equidistance between India and Pakistan."

Today, the U.S.-India partnership seems to make perfect strategic sense: Both countries are English-speaking democracies; both are wary of a rising China; both are fighting against Islamic terrorism; and both have an interest in promoting bilateral economic cooperation. India wants to secure a permanent seat on the United Nations Security Council, and it needs America's support. Economic links between the two countries are now "so strong that they stabilize the overall relationship," says Cohen.

Then there is the cultural dimension of the relationship. Panagariya points out that most people in India have a relative, friend, or neighbor who is a member of the Indian diaspora. "They see so many Indians being successful in the U.S.," he says. India is a youthful country, and its younger generation has no serious connection to the anti-Americanism of the Cold War era. In a 2008 Pew Global Attitudes Project survey, 66 percent of Indians expressed a favorable view of the United States.

To be sure, the U.S. and Indian governments will not always be in harmony. Bose says that India probably took a more "strident" position than necessary in the Doha round of global trade talks, which collapsed in late July after a fierce debate over agricultural policy. He adds that Indian officials are worried about Barack Obama's commitment to free trade, given his repeated criticism of "companies that ship jobs overseas." American officials, meanwhile, are concerned about India's relatively warm relations with Iran. But Panagariya says the Iran issue will not prove a major hindrance to U.S.-India collaboration. After all, India is very friendly with Israel. "You don't hear a peep out of the Israelis about India's Iran policy," says Cohen.

As for Pakistan, it has always bedeviled U.S.-India relations. Now the war in Afghanistan is complicating things even more. In the aftermath of the recent terrorist attacks in Mumbai, "India and the United States are likely to come closer," says Bose, provided the Americans use their leverage with Pakistan and pressure Islamabad to reform its army, clean up its intelligence services, and clamp down on militant groups. Despite all the saber-rattling, Bose expects that New Delhi will stay focused on its international ambitions and act prudently.

"India wants to play a role on the global stage," he says. Right now, however, with a national election due by May, the South Asian giant is experiencing severe economic turmoil. The worldwide downturn has taken a harsh toll on India and disrupted its lengthy run of 9 percent annual GDP growth. World Bank economist Sadiq Ahmed reckons that the Indian growth rate will dip below 7 percent in the 2008-2009 fiscal year and below 6 percent in the 2009-2010 fiscal year. "Job losses are going to be enormous due to the global slowdown," Indian commerce ministry spokesman Rajiv Jain recently told Bloomberg News. Meanwhile, the Indian financial industry has been rocked by news of a massive fraud scandal at outsourcing giant Satyam.

Painful as they are, India's economic troubles should not be overblown. "It's not a disaster scenario by any means," says Ahmed, who thinks that Indian policymakers have thus far done "a very good job" in responding to the slump. He notes that inflation has fallen sharply, interest rates have returned to normal levels, and the domestic liquidity situation has stabilized. India is benefiting from its high savings rate. "We are not expecting a prolonged downturn," says Ahmed.

Whatever its current woes, India has remarkable potential. Its middle class is still dwarfed by that of China, but it will balloon over the next few decades. A May 2007 McKinsey Global Institute study estimated that between 2005 and 2025, average real household disposable income in India will nearly triple, the Indian middle class will swell from roughly 50 million people to around 583 million, and the country's consumer market will grow from the 12th largest in the world to the fifth largest.

Goldman Sachs reckons that India could have a larger economy than the United States by 2050. As Goldman economists Jim O'Neill and Tushar Poddar observed in a June 2008 paper, the United Nations has projected that India's population will increase by around 310 million between 2000 and 2020. "India will in effect create the equivalent of another U.S.," wrote O'Neill and Poddar, "and for those of working age between 2000 and 2020, India will create the equivalent of the combined working population of France, Germany, Italy, and the U.K. We estimate another 140 million people will migrate to Indian cities by 2020."

India's long-term progress is stunning. The 2007 McKinsey study pointed out that, "in effect, there are 431 million fewer poor people in India today than there would have been if poverty had remained at its 1985 rate." There is no question that "India's economic reforms, and the increased growth that has resulted, have been the most successful anti-poverty program in the country's history."

Long a bastion of socialism, India flirted with economic liberalization during the 1980s, under the leadership of Rajiv Gandhi, who served as prime minister from 1984 to 1989 (and was assassinated in 1991). But the reform process didn't begin for real until 1991, when India was facing an economic crisis. As Robyn Meredith of Forbes magazine writes in her 2007 book, The Elephant and the Dragon, some 110 million Indians "had been thrown into poverty in just the preceding two years," and "330 million people, or two of every five Indians, lived below the poverty line." Inflation had surged to 17 percent, and the country "was flat broke."

In response, the Indian finance minister, Manmohan Singh, embraced a bold agenda of deregulation, privatization, tariff reductions, and tax cuts. Singh devalued the rupee, removed obstacles to foreign investment, and expanded trade. "Early steps were also taken to open telecommunications and domestic civil aviation to the private sector," writes Panagariya. "These measures yielded the handsome growth rate of 7.1 percent between 1993-94 and 1996-97, and also placed the economy on a long-term growth trajectory of 6 percent."

The reform process stalled in the late 1990s but regained momentum during the third term of Prime Minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee, which began in 1999. As Panagariya writes, "the Vajpayee government systematically moved to open the economy to foreign and domestic competition and to build the country's infrastructure." Singh's Congress Party took power in 2004 as the leading coalition member of the United Progressive Alliance, and Singh became prime minister. Economic reformers had high hopes for the government, especially given Singh's record as finance minister, but they have been disappointed, as the reform process has stagnated.

Moving forward, further economic reforms will be critical. The United Nations Population Fund says that India will eclipse China as the world's most populous country by 2050. Will India's population explosion produce a "demographic dividend," or a demographic disaster? "That's the million-dollar question," says Bose. Indeed, a rising population does not guarantee that India will fulfill its potential. It will need to create millions of new jobs and also ensure that its workers are properly equipped to do those jobs. In their recent paper, O'Neill and Poddar outlined ten steps that India must take "to achieve its 2050 potential." These include strengthening its education system, containing inflation, liberalizing its financial markets, boosting trade with its neighbors, and improving its infrastructure.

India's biggest weaknesses are education and infrastructure. As Emmott writes in his 2008 book, Rivals, "The country's large, young population will not be an economic advantage unless it can be educated to the standards required by manufacturers and service companies." The current Indian education system "is grossly inadequate for that task, and putting that right will be costly." Consider these numbers: "Only 28 percent of India's schools had electricity in 2005; only half had more than two teachers or two classrooms." India has a significantly lower literacy rate than countries such as China, Vietnam, and Malaysia, Emmott notes.
As for the infrastructure problem, it remains a huge drag on Indian economic growth. According to the World Bank, more than half of India's state highways are in "poor condition." In its latest survey of global competitiveness, the World Economic Forum found that Indian business executives consider "inadequate supply of infrastructure" to be "the most problematic factor for doing business" in their country. The next four "most problematic factors" were (in order) "inefficient government bureaucracy," "corruption," "restrictive labor regulations," and "tax regulations."

Though India has come a long way since the 1991 crisis, its business sector remains heavily shackled. The latest World Bank report on "the ease of doing business" around the world ranks India a lowly 122nd out of 181 economies. By comparison, China ranks 83rd. Meanwhile, the most recent Index of Economic Freedom, compiled by the Heritage Foundation and the Wall Street Journal, ranks India 123rd out of 179 economies, barely ahead of Rwanda.

"Indians joke that India is like a drunk walking home: it takes one step forward, then two steps sideways, but eventually makes it home," writes Meredith. "Indian reforms, hampered especially by local politics, tend to lurch ahead, then jolt to a stop, only to hurl forward again." Besides local politics, Indian reforms have also been hampered by persistent social tensions, ethnic conflicts, and domestic security threats. As Meredith observes, "The advances of the glittering New India mask stubborn problems, such as high child-mortality rates, violence against women, caste-based discrimination, and religious strife."

The 2008 Mumbai massacre offered a grisly reminder that India has long been plagued by Islamic terrorism. (In December 2001, jihadists attacked the Indian parliament building.) It has also spent several decades battling Maoist rebels known as "Naxalites." Then there is the longstanding dispute over Kashmir and plenty of other spats with India's nuclear-armed neighbor, Pakistan. Tensions with Islamabad have been high in the aftermath of the Mumbai attacks. Though many Indians wish they could just disregard Pakistan, that is not a viable option. "When you have a neighbor whose house is falling down, you simply can't ignore it," says Cohen.

Barack Obama will inherit a dangerous situation in Pakistan, but he will also inherit a U.S.-India partnership that is stronger than ever. Over the coming decades, as global power continues shifting to Asia, the importance of that partnership will only increase. Embracing India may indeed prove to be a significant part of President Bush's legacy. As Bose puts it, Bush elevated the relationship "to a completely new level."

Duncan Currie is managing editor of The American magazine.

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#264 Posted by RiazHaq

"But just to make sure you understand, there were also significant atrocities committed in the name of Bengalis by Mukti Bahini against non-Bengalis in East Pakistan. "

Strange! You expected them to do nothing lest they be deprived of the "character certificate" from you.

The question is, who started the violence. Napak army or mukti bahini.

Retaliation if the human nature. If India did not retaliate 26/11, it is to the credit of India's maturity. Mukti bahini was not as mature.

#262 Posted by RiazHaq

"The kind of sorry of a judiciary that can't even stop Modi and his fellow thugs from being repeatedly re-elected, instead of being sent to jail? What a joke!!!"

This is democracy my dear! You can not punish one innocent even if you have to let off ten criminals for want of evidence.

As for elections, it is not the judiciary that elects the politicians. It is the people who elect them. Just imagine the support Modi enjoys in Gujarat! Quite possibly, even if his actions are unlawful in the eyes of the judiciary, people of Gujarat have supported him wholeheartedly. Just by Riaz haq yelling from the lamp post of the chowk, Modi can not be proved a criminal. Not even Kasab in spite of all the evidences against him.

Something unheard of in Muslim countries. Isn't it?

#271 Posted by Goldfinger

With all the rantings you made, the fact remains that pakis are only the beggars while India takes loan for developments and repays the same regularly, with interest. You just can not deny it. That is the reason you do not want to shift your eyes from the lumps of shit let out by your musla brothers on the indian railtracks.

Disgusting to see a person from a country on the verge of its collapse still trying to pick holes in his neighbours' coat.

Relax, some good news for you. The state topper in XII exams in Maharashtra is a muslim girl Almaz Nazim. At last, a few muslims have left the madrassas and are contemplating joining of the mainstream.

#259 Posted by RiazHaq

"Why are Modi and his killer gang still free and still in power? "

You must be stupid to put such a question.

You are comparing the mob violence of Gujarat with the schematic violence carried out by the so called regular army of Pakistan, at the behest of the then prime minister.

Gujarat violence, however heinous, did not start out of the blue. There were enough provocation in the shape of Godhra train carnage in which the muslas tried to take law into their hands and burnt many people alive. It is to the credit of Indian people that this Gujarat violence was condemned by all sane people and judiciary alike and steps initiated to bring culprits to the book.

You may say this is all eyewash. But dear, India is a democratic country and the rule of the land is held supreme. That is the reason why, in spite of glaring evidences collected by the arms of the law, your butcher kasab continues to enjoy the VIP treatment in the jail and his lawyer continues to get Rs 2500 per day as fees from the government,for defending this third rate criminal. Can you imagine such thing in your pakiland?

Re: # 269

SPY,

you said: "You are grossly mistaken. Pak gets aid from its donors which is not to be repaid back, while India is applying for loan that needs to be repaid back with interest. Pak regularly asks its loaners to write off the loan.

Dont mix the two. "

Now that, SPY, is a most pathetic excuse...those who give out loans expect to get something even more precious than the loans they give out...whether the loans are repaid or not...that being baniya you would know well...the point of the matter being that basically both the sub-continental nations are mired in monumental problems...and here are you all bunch of Indians acting as if you belong to some great international power...as a behemoth country, almost 10 times the size of Pakistan, India's natural competition ought to have been China to which it compares more favorably both in size and population, yet all you baniyas can only hope to draw comparisons with Pakistan in everything...I've visited India and have seen with my own eyes the appalling misery, poverty, corruption, illiteracy, the stunted malnourished people, the rail road squatters performing their daily morning rituals for the whole world to see...in fact a world not a whole lot different than what was shown in the movie Slum Dog Millionaire...Riaz Haq is right...if you wish to climb to the pulpit of international stardom you need to have all your ugly festering wounds treated...if not, remember every time you point a finger at some one (Pakistan), three of your own fingers point at your own selves...just don't dream too big yet because the west merely wishes you to act as a counter balance to China...but how can this great weight differential be balanced is still a mystery...

Re: # 269
SPY said - [Pak gets aid from its donors which is not to be repaid back, while India is applying for loan that needs to be repaid back with interest. Pak regularly asks its loaners to write off the loan.]

SPY - you are bang on. Read this frontpage news from today's dawn:

Pakistan wants US to write off $1.35bln loan

ISLAMABAD: Pakistan formally requested the United States on Friday to write off its debt to help it overcome the economic crisis caused by the war against terrorists, displacement of people from the Malakand region and global recession.

Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani made the request during a meeting with the US envoy for Pakistan and Afghanistan Richard Holbrooke who is reported to have said that the US would look into the matter.

Minister of State for Finance and Economic Affairs Hina Khar told Dawn that Pakistan owed $1.35 billion to the US.

The US envoy said measures were being taken to accelerate military supplies to Pakistan.

The prime minister urged the US administration to initiate action in the Congress for a substantial increase in aid and to put on a fast track military supplies for Pakistan’s campaign against terrorism.

Mr Gilani acknowledged that the US had helped Pakistan in providing relief to the displaced people through an aid package of more than $300 million.

He expressed the hope that major European and Muslim countries would follow the US lead and come up with timely assistance.

The prime minister said the nation was united on the vital issue of army operation against Taliban and the government had taken all national institutions on board in fighting terror. He said there was national cohesion and a spirit of reconciliation on national issues among all political forces.

Ambassador Holbrook praised the overall condition in the camps for displaced people.

He praised the tradition of Pukhtunwali and the hospitality of the people of the country in accommodating the displaced people in their homes and catering to their needs despite their own meagre resources.

Re: # 257 Riaz:

You are grossly mistaken. Pak gets aid from its donors which is not to be repaid back, while India is applying for loan that needs to be repaid back with interest. Pak regularly asks its loaners to write off the loan.

Dont mix the two.

#
260

Hahaha...
you really burst his bubble.

Nobody is denying that the RSS thugs & Modi are a bane on India. The Gujrat massacre of Muslims & those Congress thugs responsible for the massacre of Sikhs after Indira Gandhi's death is a sad chapter in India's history.

As much as a curse the RSS is on India, they are not a threat to the world, like the Taleban/Alqeeda alliance is.

The problem about Pakistanis is that they define themselves by what they are not, they are not indians and always draw comparison with India. While its Military is always killing its own people and eating away all resources, Pakistanis take great pleasure finding a Modi in India and think that they are much ahead of India just because India has one Modi.

RiazHaq
I knew that you will come back blaming bengalis equally,do not compare the killings by bengalis with preplanned genocide by pak army. Today most Pakistanis do not deny the genocide but it took 25-30 years to admit that crime and during the war, people of west Pakistan supported the military operation.Do not waste time educating bengalis about 1971, we exactly know what happened and who did what.

Riaz,


Richard Holbrooke is back and this time it's to look at the refugee crisis as a result of the Swat operation, meet with the folks he needs to, and generally earn his keep. By the looks of it Mr Holbrooke spends as much time in Pakistan as President Zardari, and definitely much more time than ex-president Musharraf. Maybe we should just give him a Pakistani passport to make his life easier at the immigration counter? Pakistanis have come to view Richard Holbrooke as an uncle who flies in from 'abroad' bearing goodies for the kids in the entire family"



That is the type country that any paki should be proud of.

That is what some one like pak alumni( jihadi) world wide should be proud of

Re: # 263

Nonsense! Pakistanis do not deny the misdeeds of the military in East Pakistan. What the military did was inexcusable, shameful and should never be allowed to happen again.

But just to make sure you understand, there were also significant atrocities committed in the name of Bengalis by Mukti Bahini against non-Bengalis in East Pakistan.

Here's one example of such a massacre in Jessore and how it was exploited to rewrite history:

The truth about the Jessore massacre
The massacre may have been genocide, but it wasn’t committed by the Pakistan army. The dead men were non-Bengali residents of Jessore, butchered in broad daylight by Bengali nationalists, reports Sarmila Bose

The bodies lie strewn on the ground. All are adult men, in civilian clothes. A uniformed man with a rifle slung on his back is seen on the right. A smattering of onlookers stand around, a few appear to be working, perhaps to remove the bodies.

The caption of the photo is just as grim as its content: ‘April 2, 1971: Genocide by the Pakistan Occupation Force at Jessore.’ It is in a book printed by Bangladeshis trying to commemorate the victims of their liberation war.

It is a familiar scene. There are many grisly photographs of dead bodies from 1971, published in books, newspapers and websites.

Reading another book on the 1971 war, there was that photograph again ? taken from a slightly different angle, but the bodies and the scene of the massacre were the same. But wait a minute! The caption here reads: ‘The bodies of businessmen murdered by rebels in Jessore city.’

The alternative caption is in The East Pakistan Tragedy, by L.F. Rushbrook Williams, written in 1971 before the independence of Bangladesh. Rushbrook Williams is strongly in favour of the Pakistan government and highly critical of the Awami League. However, he was a fellow of All Souls College, Oxford, had served in academia and government in India, and with the BBC and The Times. There was no reason to think he would willfully mislabel a photo of a massacre.

And so, in a bitter war where so many bodies had remained unclaimed, here is a set of murdered men whose bodies are claimed by both sides of the conflict! Who were these men? And who killed them?

It turns out that the massacre in Jessore may have been genocide, but it wasn’t committed by the Pakistan army. The dead men were non-Bengali residents of Jessore, butchered in broad daylight by Bengali nationalists.

It is but one incident, but illustrative of the emerging reality that the conflict in 1971 in East Pakistan was a lot messier than most have been led to believe. Pakistan’s military regime did try to crush the Bengali rebellion by force, and many Bengalis did die for the cause of Bangladesh’s independence. Yet, not every allegation hurled against the Pakistan army was true, while many crimes committed in the name of Bengali nationalism remain concealed.

Once one took a second look, some of the Jessore bodies are dressed in salwar kameez ? an indication that they were either West Pakistanis or ‘Biharis’, the non-Bengali East Pakistanis who had migrated from northern India.

As accounts from the involved parties ? Pakistan, Bangladesh and India ? tend to be highly partisan, it was best to search for foreign eye witnesses, if any. My search took me to newspaper archives from 35 years ago. The New York Times carried the photo on April 3, 1971, captioned: ‘East Pakistani civilians, said to have been slain by government soldiers, lie in Jessore square before burial.’ The Washington Post carried it too, right under its masthead: ‘The bodies of civilians who East Pakistani sources said were massacred by the Pakistani army lie in the streets of Jessore.’ “East Pakistani sources said�, and without further investigation, these august newspapers printed the photo.

In fact, if the Americans had read The Times of London of April 2 and Sunday Times of April 4 or talked to their British colleagues, they would have had a better idea of what was happening in Jessore. In a front-page lead article on April 2 entitled ‘Mass Slaughter of Punjabis in East Bengal,’ The Times war correspondent Nicholas Tomalin wrote an eye-witness account of how he and a team from the BBC programme Panorama saw Bengali troops and civilians march 11 Punjabi civilians to the market place in Jessore where they were then massacred. “Before we were forced to leave by threatening supporters of Shaikh Mujib,� wrote Tomalin, “we saw another 40 Punjabi “spies� being taken towards the killing ground?�

Tomalin followed up on April 4 in Sunday Times with a detailed description of the “mid-day murder� of Punjabis by Bengalis, along with two photos ? one of the Punjabi civilians with their hands bound at the Jessore headquarters of the East Pakistan Rifles (a Bengal formation which had mutinied and was fighting on the side of the rebels), and another of their dead bodies lying in the square. He wrote how the Bengali perpetrators tried to deceive them and threatened them, forcing them to leave. As other accounts also testify, the Bengali “irregulars� were the only ones in central Jessore that day, as the Pakistan government forces had retired to their cantonment.

Though the military action had started in Dhaka on March 25 night, most of East Pakistan was still out of the government’s control. Like many other places, “local followers of Sheikh Mujib were in control� in Jessore at that time. Many foreign media reported the killings and counter-killings unleashed by the bloody civil war, in which the army tried to crush the Bengali rebels and Bengali nationalists murdered non-Bengali civilians.

Tomalin records the local Bengalis’ claim that the government soldiers had been shooting earlier and he was shown other bodies of people allegedly killed by army firing. But the massacre of the Punjabi civilians by Bengalis was an event he witnessed himself. Tomalin was killed while covering the Yom Kippur war of 1973, but his eye-witness accounts solve the mystery of the bodies of Jessore.

There were, of course, genuine Bengali civilian victims of the Pakistan army during 1971. Chandhan Sur and his infant son were killed on March 26 along with a dozen other men in Shankharipara, a Hindu area in Dhaka. The surviving members of the Sur family and other residents of Shankharipara recounted to me the dreadful events of that day. Amar, the elder son of the dead man, gave me a photo of his father and brother’s bodies, which he said he had come upon at a Calcutta studio while a refugee in India. The photo shows a man’s body lying on his back, clad in a lungi, with the infant near his feet.

Amar Sur’s anguish about the death of his father and brother (he lost a sister in another shooting incident) at the hands of the Pakistan army is matched by his bitterness about their plight in independent Bangladesh. They may be the children of a ‘shaheed,’ but their home was declared ‘vested property’ by the Bangladesh government, he said, in spite of documents showing that it belonged to his father. Even the Awami League ? support for whom had cost this Hindu locality so many lives in 1971 ? did nothing to redress this when they formed the government.

In the book 1971: documents on crimes against humanity committed by Pakistan army and their agents in Bangladesh during 1971, published by the Liberation War Museum, Dhaka, I came across the same photo of the Sur father and son’s dead bodies. It is printed twice, one a close-up of the child only, with the caption: ‘Innocent women were raped and then killed along with their children by the barbarous Pakistan Army’. Foreigners might just have mistaken the ‘lungi’ worn by Sur for a ‘saree’, but surely Bangladeshis can tell a man in a ‘lungi’ when they see one! And why present the same ‘body’ twice?

The contradictory claims on the photos of the dead of 1971 reveal in part the difficulty of recording a messy war, but also illustrate vividly what happens when political motives corrupt the cause of justice and humanity. The political need to spin a neat story of Pakistani attackers and Bengali victims made the Bengali perpetrators of the massacre of Punjabi civilians in Jessore conceal their crime and blame the army. The New York Times and The Washington Post “bought� that story too. The media’s reputation is salvaged in this case by the even-handed eye-witness reports of Tomalin in The Times and Sunday Times.

As for the hapless Chandhan Sur and his infant son, the political temptation to smear the enemy to the maximum by accusing him of raping and killing women led to Bangladeshi nationalists denying their own martyrs their rightful recognition. In both cases, the true victims ?Punjabis and Bengalis, Hindus and Muslims ? were cast aside, their suffering hijacked, by political motivations of others that victimised them a second time around.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

RiazHaq,
Be careful when you choose your words, I am a bengali Muslim from Dhaka. Just because I don't agree with you , you think that I am a 'Hindu Bigot',You people have not really changed since 1971, your generals used to think that begalis are inferior beings. Google Gujrat riot or Modi's trial, you will get the answer, Indians are always vocal about Modi's misdeeds, Pakistan still deny the genocide.

Re: # 260
And you have a judiciary and justice system? The kind of justice system that allows 153 criminals and thugs to be elected to parliament this year alone? The kind of sorry of a judiciary that can't even stop Modi and his fellow thugs from being repeatedly re-elected, instead of being sent to jail? What a joke!!!
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 252

In India, the powerful don't just get away (with mass murder), they stay in power and become even more powerful after their heinous crimes.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Pakistan does not have any judiciary or justice system, so they keep criminals under house arrest.Why don't you admit that all these war criminals were rewarded with lucrative jobs for getting rid of bengalis who were a threat to the power structure of Pakistan consist of power hungry army and mafia landlords.

Re: # 256
As you quibble about dead people under house arrest, the question to you and other Hindu bigots is as follows:

Why are Modi and his killer gang still free and still in power?

Let's see if you can answer a simple question I am asking you.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 251

Waht happened to you urstruly. i have known you for years.

It appears that finally truth has dawned on you that pakistan with the TNT intact has no future. It will create taliban to kill others and then take money from the yanks to kill the taliban.

Now they have also created the refugee problem to extract more money. One should not forget that during eid more animals are killed in the back yards of pakistan than in another muslim country. Most of teh UAE have banned such backyard killings. these nackyard killings have de-sensitised millions of paki children and hence there is public acceptance and relish at killings, which is good and a good money earner for pakistan.

The path of india is not suitable for pakistan with the TNT ideals ...De-nuking and fencing of pakistan is the only option for the world. The day is not far off. Slowly strategies are put in place to de-nuke pakistan.

Re: # 251
The Indian begging missions are not as heavily advertised as Pakistan's. IN fact, India has received and continues to receive far more foreign aid than Pakistan.

In spite of all of the recent news about aid to Pakistan dominating the media, the fact remains that resurgent India has received more foreign aid than any other developing nation since the end of World War II--estimated at almost $100 billion since the beginning of its First Five-Year Plan in 1951. And it continues to receive more foreign aid in spite of impressive economic growth for almost a decade. At the recent G20 meeting, India has asked the World Bank to raise the amount of money India can borrow from the bank for its infrastructure projects, according to Times of India. At present, India can borrow up to $15.5 billion as per the SBL (single borrower limit) fixed by the Bank.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

RiazHaq,
do not become the propaganda machine of your killer army, only yahia khan was kept under house arrest, all other war criminals held important positions in Pakistan Govt and army , what do you mean by " humiliated", all these generals told blatant lies to people of Pakistan , When Hamoodur Rahman commission report was leaked by India, you people came to know about the genocide, a military defeat is humiliating indeed but its not the punishment for those who are responsible for killing and raping more than a million. These criminals are dead now but they were never put on trial , never held accountable for one of worst genocide in history of mankind. Did it ever come to your mind why Hamoodur Rahman commission report was never published? India has only one Modi, you had thousands of them.Fix your own yard first.BTW, your PM Bhutto is also a war criminal, the whole military operation was done with his approval, million of bengalis were killed so that Bhutto can become the PM.

#251

Keep going like this & Riaz will give you the ultimate insult--hindu bigot.

House arrest!!
Yeah kill millions & live out life in luxury.

Like AQ Khan?-The Most Dangerous Man on Earth.

You're a legend in your own mind , Riaz, every spinner you've bowled has been blown out of the ballpark.

Re: # 250

Riaz:

"...Tikka may have become a figurehead governor without any real power because of his connection with Bhutto..."

Your word play "may have become a figurehead governor" to an independent person will be "explain away".

Ignorant person saying this can be understood, but YOU.
Are you saying that you do not KNOW for sure that he became a governor?

Re: # 241

Riaz:

"...Anil, You continue to explain away Modi's massacre of Muslims as a response to Godhra, a lie that has been exposed by Bannerjee commission. It shows where your heart is at..."


I knew you are going to do the above. Paint as if I am linking. I am merely stating the perceptions out there.

I am glad you did not say that I am trying to explain away perpetrators of Jallianwala Bagh too. At least you spared. Riaz I quote your words not mine on butchers of Bengal. I have read your views earlier on it, when you named me a bigot as well.

My main point that butechery of people in power, powerful gets away, while poors suffer be they were in Jallianwala, Bangladesh, Gujrat or Godhra. This is where my heart and mind lies. As far as I am concern of these attrocities is waste unless you can be an activist. Enough said, good luck.

I do not understand why pro-establishment pakistani interactors write plemic thesis after thesis tp prove that India is a cesspool worst than Pakistan. May be the reason is that the Hindus show them the mirror how they (Paki establishment and its chamchay) take money from from foreigners and destroy their own country.

Polemic thesis aside, and India may be the cesspool of curruption, disease, and poverty but why we never hear that a Hindu leader has ever gone out with a begging bowl hoping country after country for money. I have never heard that Hindus have ever celebrated "arrival of foreign aid" as if their ruling elite has won noble prize (in begging). I do not read Indian newspapres, but is it true, Hindus? After 9/11 Hindu could have exploit Kashmir situation by cliaming Al-Qaidas hand in it, but they plainly told, what was his name the Negro scratery of state, Genral whatever, to go fukk himself and hands off of Kashmir. I grudgingly give credit to Hindu leadership for acting responsibly. The fact of the matter is that Pakistan has become a cesspool that only a pit in hell would surpass. It is a failed state. The ruling elite and fouj have destroyed in shred of decency that this country once used to have. Don't call Hindus bad, they are several notches above you.

Re: # 249

Pak generals who participated in East Pak massacres and debacle were despicable characters. So are Modi and his gang of killers. But here is the difference:

Most of the Pak generals you mention lived under house arrest for the rest of their lives and were deeply humiliated by the defeat in East Pak. Tikka may have become a figurehead governor without any real power because of his connection with Bhutto. None of them are alive today nor did they retain the kind of real power and privilege Modi, the butcher of Gujarat Muslims, and his murderous gang continue to enjoy in India.

It's a real indictment of India's democracy and justice system that is allowing these people to get away with mass murder.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

RiazHaq,
"Most of the East Pak characters were humiliated and are dead"
Will you please explain how the East Pakistan characters were humiliated? All these war criminals had natural death,
Tikka khan, the buther of Dhaka was made governor of a province, Yahia Khan, Niazi were buried with full miltary honour, Rao forman and other Generals enjoyed important positions and lived life of generals with all luxury. Is this what you call humiliation in Pakistan?

So here the update: Khyber the Hindu/CIA wannabe pathan changes his name and PMs me saying he wants to meet me and that "our common enemy" is the ISI- now he must think that I am a damn fool to meet up with his kinds of thugs- no thank you and don't PM me please-CIA thugs like you were the ones that are featured in those videos doing stuff that then gets blamed on those "ghosts" the Taliban.

TNITC masadi

Talking about strategists and analysts, here's what Merrill chief strategist said about Pak last year, just before it dropped by 50%.

"Pakistan is a safe haven for investors", says Mark Matthews, chief Asia strategist at Merrill Lynch, speaking to CNBC's Arnold Gay in January, 2008. This is in sharp contrast to some of the rating agencies like S&P and Moody's hinting at possible downgrade of Pakistan as an investment opportunity. Matthews argues that Pakistan is one of the best information arbitrage markets in the world.
While the bombings, shootings and the body bags make good headlines for the news media, Matthews says it is incorrect to say that Pakistan is being radicalized. There is always a radical fringe in Pakistan like many other countries. Matthews is "very bullish on Pakistan". He points out that Karachi Stock Exchange KSE-100 index rose 45% and Pakistan's GDP grew by 7% in 2007 in spite of continuing political instability and a continuous stream of news of violence and mayhem on the streets. Pakistan has some of the best companies in the world with stock valuation about a half of similar companies in India.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 242 Riaz

Do you know who Roach is? Take a wild guess!

(psst, others, he is Chairman, Morgan Stanley Asia)

Re: # 244
masadi,

Thanks for your advice, but I love to take them on.

Belief in myths is a part of India's culture. And their anti-Muslim and anti-Pakistan western allies have been reinforcing these myths.

It is my pleasure to demolish these myths by presenting facts and data.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Alumni WW throw away the keyboard, take a chowk break. Indian chowkies want you to lose your mind and you are helping them achieve that end. You are wasting your time....

TNITC masadi

Hamid moron, don't inform me about the U.S. I know more about it than you ever will living in that corporate bubble of yours, and I do not need Anil's help getting an assistantship at a US university, thank you. That person needs an education first and foremost in how to write a decent sentence.

TNITC masadi

Roach is like many other analysts who have been consistently wrong on stock market performance because they fail to see the underlying realities, like the following:

If the recent mood of the stock market is anything to go by, the future looks really bright for India. But is it really? After all, there must be a good reason why we have failed so greatly in living up to our potential in all these years. Former cabinet secretary, T.S.R. Subramanian, in his recent book "GovernMint in India" has tried to find out the answer. He believes one of the major culprits is the Indian bureaucracy.

Politicians have an unfair and unchecked influence on the decisions of the executive and the judiciary. This lack of independence is the root-cause of all the trouble. Interestingly, the British civil service prior to India’s independence was far more efficient than the present one as the British crown didn’t interfere with the actions of the executive.

Highlighting the gloomy credentials of India’s administrative machinery, he said "If the Indian government was a golfer, it would score quadruple bogeys on every hole, cheat on the score card, then grab the stakes the other players had bet with." Today, an average middle level civil servant either becomes indifferent to the corruption or becomes a part of it as it is in no one’s direct interest to curb it. There is hardly any other way for the civil servant to live in the system.

Subramanian goes on to say that instead of hoping for a revolutionary change, we should focus on some practical steps to cure the system. Suspending politicians with criminal charges, setting up fast-track courts for government officials and publicly exposing political miscreants would go a long way. Interestingly, he calls for a ‘messiah’ to rise from within the system with the conviction and public support to cleanse it. We hope the political class is listening.


Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 238

Anil, You continue to explain away Modi's massacre of Muslims as a response to Godhra, a lie that has been exposed by Bannerjee commission. It shows where your heart is at.

But even if we agree for the arguments sake that some Muslim miscreants did set fire to the train, how can you justify the participation of Modi and his ministers, police and the state apparatus in carrying out a well-orchestrated pogrom that has been well documented?

On East Pak, you are distorting my response as "explaining it away". Please read again what I have written on the subject repeatedly. Let's not be disingenuous.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 237

This is just another western ode to India's democracy that ignores the realities of how average Indian has to scrape by on so little. Many of its children go to bed hungry, 6000 children a day die from hunger and malnutrition, its chances of meeting even the modest Millennium Dev Goals are rated very low relative its own neighborhood.

If you are fooled by such pieces into believing the fairy tales, then I think you are doing yourself a huge disservice. Wake up and smell your veggies...they are rotten and stinking.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 230

masadi mian,

... my heart bleeds for you ..... have you considered getting a phd under ward churchill? .... you two would get along famously ......... and here in the us of a, phd students (at real univerisities , not community or black colleges) can get upto 2000 a month for living expenses and no tuition fees ....

...... if you are nice to anil mian maybe he can get you into harvard ........

...... i wish you the best of luck in your quest to get an education .........

Re: # 229

Riaz:

"...Most of the East Pak characters were humiliated... ...Murderer Modi still rules the roost in India. ...Can you see the difference?..."

Riaz sahib the above are your utterances. Can you see the difference? Answer me your own question.

Genocide perpetrators are explained away, is that your standard? I hope you understand your own words as they point to contradiction at the very least.

In my standard Modi must be tried and punished, just as perpetrators of Godhra (whoever they are) or crime against individual or humanity. This I have said many times here.

I have also written that Indian judiciary is not without corruption and influence besides being slow, while legislative has matured more due to voting every five years and a person named T. N. Sheshan. Opportunistic decisions have been made by judiciary that harmed minority community, especially Shah Bano case.

Judiciary is influenced in many ways, to name a few butcher of Jalianwala Bagh was also let go after humiliation, just as humiliation is acceptable to you for butchers of Bengal. Powers to be in these cases had their reasons and made sure a decision of this type come.

Consider, NS and his brother were barred from election, and now they are not. Judiciary is easier to manipulate / influenced, which is done by loading bench in the more subtle way and blatant in the other.

Please do not take holier than thou position. Modi may get away with these murders with humiliation also. Yes that would be very sad. This is butchery by people in power.

Institutions are system can only do so much, the rest is people. Democracy is after all for the people by the people of the people.

If you would say that people in powerful party want to support and protect Modi, I would agree with you. Indictment of however defective Indian democracy is farfetched on your part. Problem is not in the instructions or system, it is with the people. After all the same system, the same constitution pronounced slavery as perfectly legal, and now it is illegal. Only thing changed with time is people and prosperity.

The same is true for India's defective democracy too.

For people to change, more opportunities, more empowerment and more education are needed. In countries like India, only effective initiatives are those which are from within the community, rather than government forced. The latter only brings corruption.

You have read about Modi and you are furious. This is not the only story, if you visit places like Kanpur (leather good), Moradabad (brassware), Benares (silk), and Mirzapur (carpets), you would see results of community based initiatives. As late as your generation, hierarchy was well defined, Khatri's were the middle man and money lenders, who kept most of the profits, while Muslim workers toiled. This kept Muslim workers under perpetual borrowing situation through a combination of market demand, profits and lending rates.

Younger generation first discovered export markets and then empowered themselves with education. Now the situation in these places is different. Profits are no longer with middle men; middle men instead go and ask for products to sell.

You can witness these changes if care to find. Macro level indicators wipe these out. Altogether the above markets, in my gut estimate, must be a few billion dollars a year.

Bringing profits in the community, rather than throwing tantrums at every right wing Hindu counter is what drives success.

Your focus is misguided, just as is your anger. Become an activist instead. Your danger is from within your religious community and not from outside. I know in the victim mindset that you feel, it is hard to see a non-Muslim’s perspective.

Hey Riaz, this one is for you. Why don't you cut and paste an article from the Web? I am doing one now just to get your juices going:

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/India-now-has-a-chance-to-emerge-a s-real-Asian-tiger-Stephen-S-Roach/articleshow/4606117.cms

THE ECONOMIC TIMES

India can now emerge as Asian superpower

2 Jun 2009, Stephen S Roach,

In recent years, the global view of India has been couched in terms of the daunting China comparison. It wasn’t all that long ago — 1991, to be precise — when Asia’s two giants had similar levels of income per capita. That was then. Now, China’s standard of living is more than three times that of India.

The China comparison has been India’s wake-up call — a striking example of how economic development can be galvanised by pro-active government policy. It’s not that India has floundered. To the contrary, over the 2001-07 timeframe, India’s real GDP growth averaged close to 7.5% — an impressive pick-up from the 5.5% pace of the 1990s. Perhaps the most remarkable aspect of this accomplishment was that it occurred despite the government — in the face of stiff political headwinds.

Those headwinds could now quickly become tailwinds. Thanks to the stunning victory of the Congress-led UPA in the recently concluded elections, there is a distinct chance that India could now benefit from its own strain of proactive, development-friendly government policies.

The same reformers that were so successful in opening up India in the early 1990s were stymied by the politics of coalition management over the past five years. The massive win of the Congress Party all but removes that impediment — hinting at a new era of reforms that could well unshackle the increasingly robust potential of the Indian economy.

The dirty little secret of the Indian economy is that it has actually been performing much better, beneath the surface, than the China comparison might otherwise suggest. India has long had a much better micro story than China: A large population of world-class companies, outstanding entrepreneurs, a well-educated and IT-competent workforce, relatively sound financial markets and banks, a well-entrenched rule of law, and democracy.

By contrast, India has suffered more from its macro deficiencies — especially when compared with China. That’s especially been true of savings, foreign direct investment and infrastructure. Yet, in the past three-four years, India has made impressive progress on at least two of those counts.

Gross domestic savings rates have moved from the low 20s (as a percent of GDP) in the late 1990s to the high 30s in 2007-08. Foreign direct investment accelerated to a $40 billion annual rate — still short of Chinese style numbers but a four-fold increase from the pace of India’s inflows as recently as 2005. Even on the infrastructure front — where development constraints remain quite serious — the GDP share of such investments is up from the rock-bottom levels of the late 1990s.

Therein lies India’s great potential — an increasingly virtuous cycle brought about the self-reinforcing interplay of its micro and macro drivers that now stand a real chance of being augmented by pro-active government policies and reforms.

The new government needs to seize this moment — moving aggressively on four fronts — public sector deficit reduction, infrastructure support, privatisation, and deregulation of pension funds, retail, and banking. These are all tough battles for any politician to wage. But, if the government makes a down-payment on these critical initiatives, the Indian economy is well positioned to benefit for years to come.

The world has fallen in love with the China miracle. India has slipped between the cracks in all this euphoria. Yet, China now faces increasingly daunting challenges in coming to grips with long-simmering imbalances of its export — and investment-dominated macro structure. That could be a great opportunity for the ’sleeper.’ Shifting political winds now give a well-balanced Indian economy a real chance to emerge as Asia’s biggest surprise in the years immediately ahead.

(The author is Chairman, Morgan Stanley Asia)

Re: # 234 Hamidm

"...i am talking about madrasis, hyderabadis, keralaites, biharis, upites etc..."

While you are on the subject, are Pakistanis descendants of the above included in your 'category'?

"...i don't think there are ary pakis left in indian punjab after my in-laws migrated from jullunder ..."

Mian, check out the history and demographics of Maler Kotla in Indian Punjab. (I am sure that your googling skills are up to par as Riaz's.). Also, since Partition, Muslims have begun migrating to Punjab from other states.

And as regards Hyderabadi Muslims, don't forget that their Nizam made an enormous contribution to Pakistan's finances soon after Independence.

Re: # 210
DM sahib, Your explanation of Modi's kid-glove treatment by the Indian judicial system reminds me of what Himanshu Jha, of the National Social Watch Coalition, said to the Times Online recently. He said, “The speed of the Indian judicial system means it can take 30 years to complete a case – easily long enough to live out a full political career."
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 228


for the record, i do not consider kashmiri moslems as indians - they are from us and to us they shall return .......... i am talking about madrasis, hyderabadis, keralaites, biharis, upites etc...... i don't think there are ary pakis left in indian punjab after my in-laws migrated from jullunder - at least i haven't met one .... of all the indian moslems i have met, the hyderabadis, with their mujra style bows and salaams, anal religioisity and mouthing of arabic innanities, are perhaps the most obnoxious ....... i am glad they were left behind

yeah keep redflagging my posts one second after they get posted....here you miserable morons flag this!

Re: # 214
hamidm, Don't forget, the meek ones you refer to are survivors of an Apartheid-like system in practice. And there are so few that make it to the West, in spite of their large numbers ..almost as many as Pakistani Muslims.

So I wouldn't judge them too harshly. One of them was being exploited and humiliated so badly by fellow Tamils here in a Silicon Valley eatery that he even filed a lawsuit against his tormentors, who had brought their nasty habits from home. So this guy did develop a spine in Si valley that he lacked in India.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Tahmed writes "A true scholar would not have thought twice about food and clothing..."

Not a true but an irresponsible scholar whose scholarship would be in doubt because he doesn't know his or her own environment! How is that for rebuttal you miserable ignoramus. Like I said, don't F with your intellectual superiors.

TNITC masadi

#227 tahmed, peon of the West, if you can hand me $800 a month living expense out of your estate maybe I can reconsider, but money does not grow on trees and people need food and shelter before they can think about getting a formal education. Living expenses in the UK are no small deal and I do not want to put myself in a position where I have to be dependant on anyone you miserable moron. It is the exact opposite of what you are saying.

Anil writes to Riaz " I again my unsolicited advise is to do the latter."

Why don't you act on your own goddamned advice throw away the keyboard and stop following people like a chaprasee making "incoherent" sentences and do something for your community. Even your advice to WW is hypocritical you miserable fake and you miserable liar.

TNITC masadi

Re: # 212
Anil,
Most of the East Pak characters were humiliated and are dead. OBL hides in a cave somewhere, if he is still alive.
Murderer Modi still rules the roost in India, his name being bandied about as possible successor to Advani. Can you see the difference?

Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

dost mittar: hamidm was talking about south indian muslims i think. i have met some kashmiri muslims, and they were so embittered even I started feeling guilty simply because of my second hand association with India (i.e. parents born there). one man told me how there was 1 soldier for every 3 civilians.

SIR Masadi, Spawn of the Devil: So you would have accepted the 3 year program if they had promised to feed your highness as well? Spoken like a true Welfare Commie!! A true scholar would not have thought twice about food and clothing, and instead would have focussed on what they were going to teach.

More pearls from Anil that makes even the best brains need a tune up after they read this gibberish:

Here give it a try:

--------
#213 Posted by anil on June 5, 2009 11:41:38 am
Re: # 205

Riaz:

Please put more substance in your argument than shoving it under "defensive". I was shocked by your answer to be to "wait to judge" than be an activist. I know you believe in God, so let me say it that "God has given 24 hours in a day to all of us, it is how we use is what we become". How do you want to use, making non coherent and opportunistic arguments, or doing something for your own community? I again my unsolicited advise is to do the latter.
____________

And all that from an HBS graduate!

TNITC masadi

Anil writes "Develop some decency to address people, and you wanted others to address as elitist of the elites "SIR""

Anil, this summer invest in taking some classes in sentence construction.

TNITC masadi

Anil there is absolutely nothing fake about me whatsoever, that is what bothers you and the rest of the peons of the thuggish West, that everything including my name and work is out there in the open. The part about four year for a three year program you invented yourself since you are not only a dimwit but a miserable liar. I got a full scholarship to attend the U Of E for Phd but it didn't cover living expenses morons and I decided to decline, comprendey? Or are you still worried about your HBS email address that you claimed you had but your English tells us that HBS refers to Hindlish Bull Sh**.

Have a nice day and don't F with your intellectual superiors.

TNITC masadi

Re: # 219

Masadi:

You cannot provide even context, and must hide behind others words. And you got four year financial aid from University of Edinburgh to do a three year Ph.D. program. Please understand, people see through you, and your fakeness.

Re: # 219

Masadi:

"...#196, 197 Dost muttar: my posts were based on the posts they referred to..."

Develop some decency to address people, and you wanted others to address as elitist of the elites "SIR".

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hamid writes " i don't know about the rest of it, but indian moslems are perhaps the most pathetic creatures i have ever met -"

You met them at the wrong time, you met them after the catastrophe that MAJ visited upon them, just like you met the blacks in the deep south after the white man had done his number on them post so-called emancipation...your grandchildren if they decide to stay in the US will turn out just the same way after this society dilutes the human capital that your dumb ass brought to the US from the home country. It is setup to reduce all colored folk to a common denominator of inferiority after a few generations- mark my words and be careful of how you condemn others because the same is going to befall your progeny, I guarantee you that...unless you join the resistance then you will have masadi's confidence.

TNITC masadi

#196, 197 Dost muttar: my posts were based on the posts they referred to, your negation of the commission findings suggested you supported the alternative pov which put you in the Modi camp, I am not interested in the useless details about the commissions, that was all and that was it. Your analogy of man/woman was extremely unintelligent and bore no parallel to what was being discussed.

Anil, don't waste my time especially since you are contextually challenged, "all" refers to the context that is provided in that post you moron.

TNITC masadi

hamidm#214:

You are meeting the wrong kind of Indian Muslims. I have met more Indian (and Pakistani) Muslims in Canada than in India. In the last Pak party I attended on 16 May, there were at least six horrible ones that I knew of.

And when I go to an Indian gathering, there are always a few Indian Muslims. Maybe they come there only to ensure that are not conspiring against them but they do. Heck, some of them are even on our associations' executives. Yes, they do go to Pakistani functions also, maybe more so to the Hindus' functions. But they are not as pathetic as you make them to be, none of them have stooped to eating heeng-ladern bhajis yet.

Re: # 214 hamimd

yep, blame it all on congress, commies and Nehru... moslems in india were backward to begin with - and then too much muslim appeasement has pushed them ever more backward...

f**ing commies...

Know what the biggest knot in my dhoti is?

Hamid---he's a murtid, an apostate & blasphemer. That means he's condemned to burn in Hell...with us horrible idolators who pray to monkey gods & stone penises...for eternity, no less..

Damn...there goes the neighborhood... i can just picture him whining everyday...the idli sambar forcefeedings...forced watching of bollywood reruns...& dandya raas.....

moaning about the 72 virgins he could have had...

I really hope there is some truth to us horrible hindus being reincarnated...

Re: # 214

Hamidm sahib:

".......... i don't know about the rest of it, but indian moslems are perhaps the most pathetic creatures i have ever met -"

You have already covered horrible hindoos, who else is left? Accroding to VHP, this covers pretty much all.

.......... i don't know about the rest of it, but indian moslems are perhaps the most pathetic creatures i have ever met - they kind of remind of blacks in the deep south ........ meek, frightened, religious to the point of being certifiable nutcases, whiney and born without a spine ........ in america they always hang around pakis and conspire to marry their kids off to pakis so that their future generations won't look like ordinary hindoos ......... at the same time they are always berating pakis for not being true moslems with women who wear short sleeves and men who use toothbrushes and don't pray six times a day (although lately that has changesd and pakis have taken to praying as if the day of reckoning was next wednesday) ......... i have never met a hindoo at an indian moslem's wedding reception and if they do marry a fellow indian they make sure the poor girl converts to mohammedanism ........ i have yet to meet an indian moslem who doesn't talk about gujrat as if it was the holocaust and doesn't go on and on about how lucky we pakis are to have a country of our own ...... on top of all this, they speak funny and shake their heads like a hindoo ........


....... to cut a long story short, indian moslems are worse than the horrible hindoos .... as a matter of fact, they are worse than mirzaees who, as we all know, are the lowest of the low

Re: # 205

Riaz:

Please put more substance in your argument than shoving it under "defensive". I was shocked by your answer to be to "wait to judge" than be an activist. I know you believe in God, so let me say it that "God has given 24 hours in a day to all of us, it is how we use is what we become". How do you want to use, making non coherent and opportunistic arguments, or doing something for your own community? I again my unsolicited advise is to do the latter.

Re: # 210

Riaz:

"...You have still not explained why Modi is still in Guajarat's Chief Minister house rather than max security prisons reserved for heinous mass murderers...."

You fail to understand that democracy - the system to accumulate power and distribute power - can be abused. Will care to explain why OBL is out, and why butchers of Bangaladesh lived happily ever after.

It is simple, human folly, Dr. Watson.

Re: # 100

Hamidm Sahib:

"...... there is no question that hindoos are horrible people, but i think moslems must be partly responsible for their miserable lives ...... "

Masadis and Riaz's of the world cannot accept the second part of your logic. To them it is inconceivable, for one it is all the U.S. elite, to the other it everyone else. You are ready to speak out, and Tahmed sahibs are ready for self-analysis, therefore, I say there is hope, become activist for the cause, and support Obama.

Riaz#197:

"You have still not explained why Modi is still in Guajarat's Chief Minister house rather than max security prisons reserved for heinous mass murderers.

As usual, you distract from the real issues, and divert attention to more superficial matters, like the dates of various commissions."

I have never diverted from the issues. This is a unique characteristics of those cowards who do not want to admit they are wrong even when their lies are exposed fully.

Now, to your point. Yes, Modi is still unfortunately the Chief Minister. This is an unfortunate and unintended result of the type of government system we have in India, of which, by the way, I am not a great admirer. The system we have in India is that you have to prove someone to be guilty before he can be hanged. And Modi's culpability has not yetbeen proved in any court of law, despite several attempts by many well-heeled and influential advocacy groups. But it is not over yet. The Supreme Court has appointed a special investigation team to investigate charges against him. So, there is still some chance that he may be punished.

Re: # 208 Riaz

Let us see if this one survives its full term or gets booted by the generals using the 'doctrine of necessity' as all other previous ones have been. THAT is the difference.

Re: # 206
In case you haven't noticed, Pakistan, too, has a stinking democracy dominated by politicians who are criminals and thugs, just like India's democracy.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 197

You have still not explained why Modi is still in Guajarat's Chief Minister house rather than max security prisons reserved for heinous mass murderers.

As usual, you distract from the real issues, and divert attention to more superficial matters, like the dates of various commissions.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 204 Riaz the Pakistani

Since you come from a land where not a single elected government has survived long enough to know what accountability to the electorate means, your answer does not surprise me!

When you guys mature enough to be at the point of routinely electing governments, and give up your Mughalai rules of succession, then we can have a discussion on this subject. Until then, Allah hafiz

Re: # 203
Anil,
I did not expect you to be so defensive.
Most Islamic countries do not have the problems I stated in India. Unlike India, their people are more literate, better fed, and enjoy a standard of living fit for human beings.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 201

You must be kidding.

Do most of voters or their elected reps even know what India's budget priorities are?

Is the Indian budget ever seriously debated in the parliament?

The biggest pressure groups in India are the urban middle class, like you. Only you can make a difference.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 200

Riaz:

"...The first step, as in AA, is to recognize the serious human problems of illiteracy, poverty, hunger, disease, poor sanitation, growing rich-poor gap, religious intolerance and routine anti-Muslim violence etc..."

Also, I would not call you bigot and or say word or two about your advise. These problems are well acknowledged and worked in limited and defetive Indian way.

My question to you is so what? In case of a bigger problem You want to "wait to judge" for Pakistan and Islamic countries. Please commit and become an activist, your chances of success are better.

Re: # 185

Masadi mian:

Look at the reality, and it is not in the sewer you inspect.

"...In India all that except religion is controlled for so we can compare the groups and conclude that religion is the discrimination factor..."

Then write why the above statement you made is well below even your level of intellect. Will you care to define what is included in "All", or is it one of those jokers you pull out, like four year financial aid to you at Univ. of Edinburgh for a three year Ph.D. program.

Re: # 200 Nawabzadeh Riaz

The free people of India will establish their budget priorities through their elected Parliament, in the exercise of their sovereign right to self-rule. No need for your unsolicited advice. Thank you very much.

Your words are better spent on finding succor for suffering Swatis.

As I suggested to the Indian chauvinists on Chowk before, please acknowledge your nation's utter backwardness first, be brutally honest with yourself, then work on reclaiming the greatness India deserves.

Take my friendly advice instead of hurling abuse at me.

The first step, as in AA, is to recognize the serious human problems of illiteracy, poverty, hunger, disease, poor sanitation, growing rich-poor gap, religious intolerance and routine anti-Muslim violence etc.

Second step is to fix your budget priorities. Don't snatch the little pieces of bread from the mouths of Indian children to build a militarily to threaten Pakistan. Push Manmohan Singh to follow up on his rhetoric about hunger and poverty being India's "national shame".

Conquer human deprivation before setting sights on conquering your neighborhood. Do not look to the West for accolades. You don't need their validation. Have some confidence in yourself.

I give the same advice to my Pakistani compadres on a routine basis, which Indians love. But they hate it when the same advice is directed at them.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

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Hey Chowkies, here is a new book release announcement. Pardon me if I deviate from the subject of Pakistan Talibanization, but it seems fitting to make this announcement:

India and the United States in the 21st Century: Reinventing Partnership

By Ambassador Teresita Schaffer
Director, South Asia Program
Center for Strategic and International Studies

India and the United States in the 21st Century: Reinventing Partnership examines the astonishing new strategic partnership between the United States and India. Unlike other books on the subject, it brings together the two countries' success in forging bilateral relations and their relatively skimpy record of seeking common ground on global issues despite the vibrant new network of bilateral ties. Ambassador Schaffer proposes a policy of inclusion and candor, with the United States taking the relationship global and regional by helping to move India into global councils of leadership.

masadi:

It is not Modi's version that Godhra trains were burnt by Muslims. Go back to the history of that time. At first, nobody denied that angry Muslims burnt the train. Not even Muslims. Instead, they tried to justify the Act. They said that the Hindu passengers on that train had a pattern of taunting and provoking Muslims at that station when returning from Ayodhya. They also produced an old Muslim tea vendor who said that Hindus on that train had molested him and his young daughter. So, the incident was blamed the next day by the Indian media mostly on the Hindu passengers provocation of the Muslims. The theory that the fire was caused by the Hindus cooking on the stove in the compartment only came out by the Lalu appointed committee.

None of this reduces the culpability of Modi, his police, his administration in killing innocent Muslims in Ahmedabad.

masadi#190:

I had always presumed you to be more intelligent than Riaz. Don't make me change my mind.

This is what Riaz said:
"Of course, Modi took issue with that and appointed his own puppet commission to justify his falsehoods."

This was false as the Nanavati Commission, which started out as Shah Commission, had been in existence when the Banerjee Commission was started by Lalu Yadav. Hence my post which said:"The Nanavati commission has been in existence long before Lalu appointed his commission."

Note that I did not say that Nanavati commission was objective, just that it was in existence before Lalu appointed his commission.

Pankaj Sharma? Didn't you mean Pankaj Mishra? And no, he's not an objective Indian writer!

Re: # 192 "...Riaz was working in chip design in Intel, he probably butted heads with a lot of Indians ..."

He probably worked for one who was much smarter than the Alumnus, and layed him off given his lack of intellectual integrity:)

Khyber
#178

Tsk tsk khan saheb...did you have to post that again?
Now even Riaz will accuse you of being a hindu.

If Riaz was working in chip design in Intel, he probably butted heads with a lot of Indians working there (many many more than Pakistanis). Hence the resentment. Anyways, no sense getting our dhotis in a knot over a bigot.

#188 tahmed don't act like a brat seeking attention, I already red flagged your earlier post, I don't have any desire to read that garbage again....

Dost mutter writes "Riaz#181:

If you say that Modi is a woman and I say that you are wrong, does it put me on the side of Modi? "

A moronic comparison. You were supporting Modi's version of events that led to the carnage and his version of events was to absolve the perpetrators of the carnage of responsibility, that is why you were on the side of Modi in this discussion- it has nothing to do with man or woman- your response was moronic.

TNITC masadi

#157

{{Several objective Indian writers, such as Pankaj Sharma, have aptly noted that Hindu nationalists (and their lackeys from India) go berserk anytime anything unflattering is said about India. They become personally abusive and begin to hyperventilate uncontrollably.}}

Hahaha!
This coming from a guy who went into a verbal tirade against Cyril Almeda; a respected Pakistani columnist in Dawn...
I think his "world wideness" said that Almeda is like that neocon Bush & Cheney & he should get out of his frog pond.

Once again, the pot calling the kettle black..
Give it up...Riaz

Doctor Masadi: I would appreciate your learned comments on this post I wrote earlier today.

Khyber #80 "quaran says,''Deaf, dumb and blind, they do not understand. They're hypocrites. They have an insatiable hatred towards anyone different to them and they like to label and insult people."

Fits Dr Mercedes Masadi perfectly. I think the prophet was warning us 1400 years ago that one day Masadi would rear his ugly head to sell pakoras (as you reminded us) on chowk, and muslims should start preparing for the arrival of Masadi Dajjal. And the prophesy has come true. Masadi Dajjal comes riding in his Nazimobiles, selling pakoras on chowk. I think even Nostradamus had prophesied this birth of Satan's child.

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Re: # 182 Dost Mittar

DO NOT expect an answer for your obviously logical question! That is the way of the Alumnus intellectual.

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Re: # 168
At the moment India is a poor, backward, third world country whose people suffer from delusions of grandeur, egged on by the western media who parachute in and hardly venture outside of major cities.

India lags behind about 80% of the nations of the world in terms of human development, literacy, hunger and poverty. In fact, India's chances of meeting UN's modest Millennium Dev Goals (MDGs) are considered extremely low. Even lowly Pakistan is given a higher probability of achieving MDGs.

That doesn't mean India can not achieve greatness. But first, India has to make massive investments in its people with domestic programs, as China has done. At the moment, India's 2009 budget has allocated fully two-thirds of its spending on a combination of military, security, police and debt servicing. That leaves only 1/3rd for all other expenses, including education, poverty-alleviation, healthcare and sanitation etc.

In spite of Manmohan Singh's acknowledgment of India's shame on hunger and poverty, India's priorities remain screwed up, and this will guarantee India's laggard status in the world. Indians who boast about India on Chowk should spend their time and effort on pushing the Indian government to fix its priorities.

If India can do things right, it can become a model of success for others in South Asia in improving their situation. But Indians can not lead from behind. They have to try and get ahead to reclaim their leadership status after many centuries under colonization.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Khyber gandu kidhar hain?

Rustum E Pakistan Sadiq was visiting India and had challenged Hind Kesari Maruti Mane (later MP) around 1970. A kusti was organized at Ch. Shahu Maidan. Whole town was in a tension and a large crowd about 60K people came to see the kusti. Our dear Maruti Mane showed asman to Sadiq in just 19 seconds. Maruti Mane, 6' 4" 350 pounder lifted this Pakjabi gandu and threw him on the ground and sat on his chest. Usko Pata Bhi nahi chala kya ho gaya.

Whole Bakiland is in same state. after 10 years of atomi dhamaka India has thrown bakigandu land on the mat by doing nothing. It's your hate of civilizational India which has brought you down to the mat.

Khyberi gandu, Maruti Mane used to hajam karo one goat in one meal. Now listen, after that match Hind Kesari ChandgiRam came to the town and challenged Maruti Mane. Lanky ChandgiRam held Maruti Mane by his locked ten fingers for almost 40 minutes. Maruti Mane could not move an inch. Crowd was getting restless and was shouting and screaming. Somehow Maruti got his hands free and later there was big commotion, crowd wanted local hero Maruti Mane to win at any cost and the refree declared Maruti as winner on some technical ground.

Next day the local college arranged a speech of Hind Kesari ChandgiRam MPhil and young enthusists asked him about his diet and routine of Kasarat. To everyones surprise he told that he was a veg. That day onwards lot of us gave up on goat, though we used to eat every day goat except Tuesday and Saturday. ChandgiRam told that real Shakti is in mind and Pran. To develop PranShakti he also worshipped HanumanJi.

To fulfill my craving for meat I hunt and fish even in Umrika.

Riaz#181:

If you say that Modi is a woman and I say that you are wrong, does it put me on the side of Modi?

Re: # 180 Alumnus the Great

And you are totally wrong about Dost Mittar.

Re: # 175

I think you have now put yourself squarely with Modi and the gang on this. I am amazed at this turn of events. You really need to re-examine your own sense of fairness and justice.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Riaz:

"Of course, Modi took issue with that and appointed his own puppet commission to justify his falsehoods."

Another shameless falsehood. The Nanavati commission has been in existence long before Lalu appointed his commission. It is Lalu who appointed a quick commission for a quick pre-determined finding.

COLUMNISTS

Poverty of imagination

By Cyril Almeida
DAWN.COM


THE Pakistani state has taken so many wrong turns in the past that it’s almost a surprise there are any more turns left to take.

But at a crossroads it is again: almost a decade after it should have become clear that the age of nurturing ‘non-state actors’ had passed, the state has a second chance to bury that madcap policy.

Eight years ago, Al Qaeda brought down the World Trade Centre and America pursued it into Afghanistan. We were faced with a choice then: understand the long-term significance of that seminal event and adjust our strategic outlook accordingly or bury our heads in the sand and hope the storm would blow over quickly enough.

We, or rather the Pakistan Army led by Musharraf, chose the latter. Our decision: bag as many Al Qaeda types as possible while sweeping our home-grown jihadis under the carpet and shielding the Afghan Taliban from America’s prying eyes. The policy ‘worked’ because the Bush administration only seemed to care about Al Qaeda in Afghanistan, and even on that front got distracted soon enough by its interest in Iraq.

Musharraf and his cohorts were smug: they got tens of billions of dollars in return for simply putting their strategic-depth policy and jihadis in cold storage. When the time was right, they would simply reactivate those guys and use them once again to pursue strategic depth in Afghanistan and as a potent threat against India.

Two problems – serious problems – were always apparent: one, the security establishment didn’t comprehend the pernicious effect of Al Qaeda on our jihadis; and, two, the security establishment didn’t comprehend the long-term strategic fallout of 9/11.

The first problem meant that we continued to believe we could by and large control the home-grown jihadis and Afghan Taliban operating from our soil. Eight years later, with the northwest and Fata acutely destabilising Pakistan proper, we now conclusively know how naïve that policy was. Al Qaeda and its ideology are a virus, and once it infects its victim, it takes over – gone are the illusions of ‘control’ by the security establishment over its erstwhile puppets.

The second problem meant that we didn’t realise how dangerously Pakistan was isolating itself regionally and internationally. The first thought any leader would have had after 9/11 was: not in my backyard. The destructive power of non-state actors had been seared onto the world’s collective consciousness and henceforth the tolerance for anyone playing with that same fire was exceedingly low.

Because Musharraf dealt primarily with the clumsy, Iraq-obsessed Bush administration, he and his generals missed that seismic strategic shift. Once again, eight years later it is readily apparent: terrorism and Pakistan’s connection to it as at the top of the agenda of our relations with virtually any state important to us. Name the country – China, UK, Iran, Saudi Arabia, UAE – and it is more likely than not to be fretting over security concerns.

But now we have a second shot at changing course and doing the right thing. The military operation in Swat, Buner and Dir could be the springboard for a wider policy of crushing militancy of all stripes inside Pakistan. No more good Taliban/bad Taliban, our guys versus Al Qaeda and Arab outsiders, but a clear, unequivocal sign that a militant is bad because he is a militant and not because of the kind of militant agenda he subscribes to.

Is that happening? Two very bad signs have been sent out this week that it is not.

First, Hafiz Saeed was released. This wasn’t a case of judicial activism by the superior judiciary, but a case of the inevitable given the lack of the government’s interest in prosecuting the leader of the group believed to be behind the Mumbai attacks last November.

Saeed’s release capped what has been a rather half-hearted, arguably farcical, attempt to clamp down on Jamaatud Dawa and its earlier incarnation, Lashkar-i-Taiba. Six months since the Mumbai attacks, it seems the security establishment has decided that the attacks were an aberration and that after a slap on the wrist, the group involved can go back into temporary obscurity.

Any crackpot theory about ‘pressurising’ India to renew the composite dialogue or to back off in Afghanistan by going easy on the Lashkar for now is just that: madness that doesn’t take into account how the international impression that Pakistan is an incorrigible sponsor of terrorism has been grimly reinforced.

Second, the kidnapping of the students of the Razmak Cadet College in the North Waziristan Agency. There is a sordid tale of the continuing good Taliban/bad Taliban distinction behind the incident. The bad Taliban in question is Baitullah Mehsud, the scourge of the country in recent years because of his habit of sending suicide bombers to attack security forces and cities and towns. The good guy was supposed to be Hafiz Gul Bahadur, a Taliban commander in North Waziristan and the man tasked with ensuring the safe passage of the students out of his territory.

Gul Bahadur is considered ‘good’ because he helped the state eject Uzbek militants linked to Al Qaeda from his area and because he doesn’t always get along with Baitullah. But good made common cause with the bad in this instance: Gul Bahadur double-crossed local officials who negotiated with him and tried to hand over the students to Baitullah.

Why? Because the very idea of good and bad Taliban is stupid. The ‘good’ stay good as long as their interests are not under threat: fearing that the state may be serious about crushing Baitullah – and for that we have to thank President Zardari for blurting it out and making international headlines – Gul Bahadur may have shrewdly, and logically, calculated that he could be next. So, better to help out a enemy now than risk losing his own kingdom later.

And why kidnap the students at all? Because if a military operation is imminent, wrong-footing the state may cause it to charge in unprepared. Militarily, it amounts to poking your opponent in the eye while he’s still donning his armour and picking up his weapons.

Why do we keep doing this to ourselves? Why, after eight years of a failed policy whose security fallout we are struggling to contain, are we still clinging to it so desperately? What can we not see that our security policy, born of an insecure mindset, has made us progressively less secure as a state?

There are many reasons, ones that security analysts, political scientists and historians readily proffer. But at the core of those explanations is the poverty of imagination of the security establishment.

Needy, greedy and seedy, it is like Tolkien’s Gollum. Just as the Ring extended his life but ended up enslaving him, so our security policy has dragged on the state, but at the cost of dragging us into a deep, dark place.



http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/the- newspaper/columnists/cyril-almeida-poverty-of-imagination-569
http://pukhtunkhwatimes.blogspot.com/

Re: # 174 Anyway had enough of this person...

Re: # 174 here is a snippet

Mr. Riaz Haq (ریاض حق) is a high-tech executive, investor, business consultant and entrepreneur in Silicon Valley, CA. His credits include Intel 80386 CPU design that earned him a Person of the Year Award and two Silicon Valley startups he founded......Mr. Haq successfully drove products and product lines from concept and business strategy and roadmaps through development, launch, deployments, customer engagements and upgrade cycles garnering significant revenue and profitability. He founded and managed DynArray, an enterprise software company focused on linking legacy to the Web and grew it from zero to $10m within 18 months delivering to major customers including IBM, Allianz, Sandvik, SCIF and others. He led Intel’s mobile software product line with significant new developments including location-based application support, Web Services APIs, mobile Web 2.0 mash-ups (with Web services APIs from Amazon, Google and Yahoo), context-aware computing etc. winning major customers including SAP, IBM, IBM, Accela and others

from http://pakistan.wikia.com/wiki/Riaz_Haq

Unless this Riaz haq is different from the one here on chowk....(though there is cross referencing to PAW and the blogs)

Riaz:

"Your justification of Muslim implication in train burning has also been thoroughly discredited by a Central Indian commission."

I knew you would say that. That report was enough to make any sane Hindu into a saffronite. The report was ordered by Lalu Yadav who wanted a report to exonerate Muslims so that he could get their votes in a forthcoming election in Bihar. However, even the leftist secular newspaper Hindu found it difficult to accept that the Hindu passengers were responsible for the burning of the train because they were cooking food in the compartment. And then presumably refused to leave the burning train to lay the blame on the Muslims, so that a pogrom could be unleashed against Muslims. People with an agenda would believe anything, but not others.

what's the website? this man sounds like a deranged idiot. i saw a post where he was comparing KSe to other exchanges....and economy of pakistan to India and stuff....the man should be locked up, cuz everytime he opens his mouth, he subtracts from the sumtotal of human wisdom.

Re: # 172 those on his website and the wiki entry he has got, CA.

what accomplishments are those? buying out I Heart Pakistan t-shirts form romair and selling them to every man, woman and child in Amreeka?

Re: # 158

Mr. Alumni, I was as student at Delhi School of Economics where Sen taught and have not merely read some out of context statements from him and twisted them to feed your hatred as you did.

I never said that Sen is a China lover or a Commie. If he loves any place, it is Bangladesh and Bengal, followed by India. While he admires Chinese success in eliminating mass illiteracy and improving health, he also accuses the Chinese system for the death due to hunger of thousands of people.
Go read his books and articles and not just google with appropriate words to feed your hatred. I doubt you would qualify as a student in any of the universities where he teaches.

Re: # 163 man CA just realising it...for this is a person who cannot distinguish between genuine concern and "ghoulish humour/pleasure".

For him anyone without a muslim name is an Indian and a hindu.

Sad, really sad. esp given his "accomplishments" - dont know if they real or what

"If there is any consolation, those Pakistanis who directly participated in East Pak massacres were thoroughly shamed and discredited."

really, maybe in your bizzaro world. Which senior Pakistani officers faced court-marshall for what they did in Bangladesh?

why is there a comparison between the two countries? pakistan is like a rabid mouse....compared to the Indian elephant which will be part of the future that drives the global economy along with other countries that matter.

I think KSE just launched taliban bombing Futures!!

Re: # 161

Your justification of Muslim implication in train burning has also been thoroughly discredited by a Central Indian commission. Of course, Modi took issue with that and appointed his own puppet commission to justify his falsehoods. And the fact is that Modi and his fellow killers continue to enjoy the perks of power, instead of jail time.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 161 Dost Mittar

And never mind that the 'valiant fight that the Pakistan Army (according to Riaz) that it is engaged in Swat' is because, in the first place, the fire that Pakistan tried to light in Afghanistan and India (via the Taliban) is burning its own house! It must come as a rude shock to his system that even though more than half his country violently broke away from his beloved Pureland in 1971, the rump state remaining is smoldering in hate!

Re: # 162 heck....something went wrong there...

these are the days of ( us) monkey men and it is a competition of who can hoot better (T)

Re: # 154

Unlike you who continues to defend the Gujarat massacre and Modi's role, I am on record as expressing deep shame about what happened in East Pakistan. Though Pakistani military was not the only culprit and Mukti Bahini, backed by Indian Army, massacred many people, I still believe that Pakistan should have put the criminals on trial.

If there is any consolation, those Pakistanis who directly participated in East Pak massacres were thoroughly shamed and discredited. They did not remain powerful in Pakistan as Modi and his murderous gangs have in India.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Dashy, why are you arguing with this riaz clown? He is like tahmed when tahmed was younger. I mean, does anyone believe that talibanization is the same or worse than any movement or ill that India has? Any sane person? I don;t mean pakis

Re: # 152 Tahmed32, you and shankar are harking back to the days, which will never return

When Gujarat killings were happening, I wrote at chowk lambasting Modi, Vajpayee, Police chief and others. But now, I am sick and tired of being reminded of that horrible episode on a daily basis, especially that this could never happen in Pakistan. You bet it can't! And the reason is very simple: you will never have a group of Hindus burning a train of haajis returning from Maka. While condoning what happened in Gujarat is unacceptable, so is the hypocisy of those who mention Gujarat killings without mentioning what triggered it.

Re: # 158 ARey Riaz, Isn't Amrtya Sen married to a Rothschild? BTW did he get his Nobel Prize?

Re: # 157very true, and for once a good observation AR Riaz.

You are learning quick and fast

Re: # 156

I don't think you know much about Amartya Sen's views about the monumental failures of India. Part of the problem is that you filter what you read based on your perception that he's a China lover, leftist Commie, or something to that effect you wrote earlier.

What irks you and your fellow apologists for India's failures is that India's much ballyhooed democracy has done so much worse than China's authoritarian rule.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 151
Good observation. Several objective Indian writers, such as Pankaj Sharma, have aptly noted that Hindu nationalists (and their lackeys from India) go berserk anytime anything unflattering is said about India. They become personally abusive and begin to hyperventilate uncontrollably.

Here's a quote from a piece Sharma wrote for the Guardian last year:

In an article I wrote for the New York Times in 2003 I underlined the likely perils if the depressed and alienated minority of Muslims were to abandon their much-tested faith in the Indian political and legal system. Predictably Hindu nationalists, most of them resident in the UK and US, inundated my email inbox, accusing me of showing India in a bad light

Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

shankar:

"After all, Amartya Sen is someone you respect very much as he tells you what you LOVE to hear. "

This may have changed. I got sick of Riaz misquoting Sen and asked him to give a reference. When I quoted from that very reference to disprove Riaz, he went on to quote some other report to "prove" that what Sen said was wrong.

Re: # 143 Shankar

"...Like I said, in this day & age of Internet & google I can pull out enough articles..."

Apparently, the Great Alumnus of Silicon Valley has not yet got this message. I wonder if this champion blogger/investor has passed up opportunities to invest in some great Silicon Valley content management start up ventures in favor of those companies that relied upon cut and paste based on Google searches :)

Riaz,

{{Modi and the gang have literally gotten away with murder in India's secular democracy.}}

You forgot how Gen Niazi & Tikka Khan died peacefully in their sleep. Those butchers, in their frenzy to kill Hindus In East Pakistan; killed a hell of a lot of muslims as well.

Worse than a pogrom, it was genocide!
Pot calling the kettle black.

Re: # 151 well Goldilocks......funny that you say...as I said many times before...who cares about those two places - each competing who is going to be the bigger and best cesspit of the gods. This I find hilarious - the competition.

I am just providing some more fodder (oil/gas etc) for the other side as well - I love the mutual annihilation club of Chowk.

#143 shankar: quite true. writing used to be a civilized form of human communcation, reflecting considered thought. on the internet it has been reduced it to monkey-speak, with statistics used as a cover for infantile emotions.

Re: # 137

DD,

from your mirthful wily friendly demeanor you resort to abusive epithets...did facts, as produced by Riaz Sahib, pinch hard? As they say in a witticism, if you live in a house of glass, do not pelt stones at others....

RiazHaq: I can only imagine poor Jay Thakeray rolling over the floor in agony with stomachaches as he heard Obama speak. Why doesnt the world see muslims as the Jay Thakerays of India see them?? Surely they have their head stuck in the sand. If only Obama was as smart as Jay and "paki paki" arjun!! :-(

Re: # 148 rather droll nb .....

Well, no , Shankar, there aren't from 'respected' commentators.

Many Indians who loved Bush are unhappy with Obama's outreach to Muslims. My blog is inundated by comments from the right-wing Hindus wishing Obama to fail, comparing him to Carter. Why did Indians love Bush? Because he gave them the gift of "war on terror", an open license to go kill its own Muslim citizens. Here's how Yoginder Sikand described it last year:

An essay on TwoCircles.net by Yoginder Sikand describes the deteriorating human rights situation of Indian Muslims. America's 'global war on terror' has provided a convenient cover to the Hindutva lobby and to fiercely anti-Muslim elements within the Indian state machinery to launch a concerted campaign of terror against Muslims. Large numbers of Muslims in various parts of India continue to languish in jails on trumped-up terror charges, suffering brutal torture as well as routine insults to their religion by police officials. Meanwhile, Hindu terrorists, often in league with the police and the state machinery, are allowed to run riot, unleashing violence and bloodshed on a frightening scale, while the state, the police and the courts take no firm action against them. Bomb blasts that are now occurring with frightening frequency, whose perpetrators remain unknown, are automatically blamed on Muslims, while some of these might possibly be engineered by Hindutva outfits or by elements within the state apparatus, or even by foreign intelligence agencies like the CIA or the Israeli Mossad who have a vested interest in demonizing Muslims and thereby driving India closer into the deadly American-Israeli embrace. That, in brief, was what numerous social activists as well as dozens of Muslim victims of police and state terror testified to at a public hearing on brutalities against Muslims in the name of countering 'terrorism' recently organized in Hyderabad by a group of noted human rights' activists. Going by their depositions and the verdict of the jury of eminent social activists, journalists and retired judges, it appears that powerful elements within the state apparatus are deeply implicated, along with Hindu terrorist groups, in a witch-hunt of India's Muslim citizens.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

nothing bad really...just calling him a silly old man thats all

Dash_Dot

What does POYSSOB stand for?