It's Yet Another Pakistani Nuclear Anniversary Today

@@@@@@@@Just curious, if all the knowledge there is to have, is contained in Quran, why would one need to go to China to get any?@@@@@@@@@

Very wise question to moslems - you are a fertile mind - and I appreciate your intellect....but I am sure these moslems will come with deceptive question answer to misguide you and others....because they are blind folded and infected with a virus called Islam which is flowing into thier green blood - exclusive patent of Allah.......

Re: # 473
Just curious, if all the knowledge there is to have, is contained in Quran, why would one need to go to China to get any?

@@@@@@@@@Also, as per tahmed (mullah32), the great prophet had said "Go to China, if you have to, for knowledge". So Pakis go to China for knowledge about bomb-delivery systems like missiles, as well as the nuclear bomb.@@@@@@@@@@

Correct....

But this prophet of doom also said the following about India, hence we got gauris, ghaznavis, akbers, aurngzeb, baburs and what not......

Here are his glorious words about conquering India....


“… in the hadith collections the prophet Muhammad himself is credited with the aspiration of conquering India. Participants in the holy war against al-Hind [the Hindus] are promised to be saved from hell-fire… Thus also an eschatological work which is called the Kitab al-Fitan (’Book of Trials’) credits Muhammad with saying that God will forgive the sins of the members of the Muslim army which will attack al-Hind, and give them victory.�

In one of the Hadiths (Muslim scripture) the Prophet Muhammad isquoted as saying “Two groups of my Ummah Allah has protected from the hellfire: a group that will conquer India and a group thatwill be with Isa ibnu Maryam (Jesus, son of Mary).� The first attempted invasion of India by Muslims occurred in 636 CE — underCaliph Umar, within four years of Muhammad’s death. The first 16 invasion attempts utterly failed.

Source = Al-Hind by Andre Wink


Islam is based on subterfuge and deception against their enemies - kafers

#471 meenug

I have to say that you don't have a clue, not being Muslim yourself. While all these scientists all over the world are searching for answers in their laboratories and studies like fools, Muslims know that ALL the knowledge that there possibly could be is encoded in the Koran. So while the rest of the world chase their tails, the Muslims are stuying the "book" and gaining an advantage over everyone else in the afterlife. If you don't believe ma, ask Masadi.

Also, as per tahmed (mullah32), the great prophet had said "Go to China, if you have to, for knowledge". So Pakis go to China for knowledge about bomb-delivery systems like missiles, as well as the nuclear bomb.

Pakis have all the bases covered.

Re: # 471

Where is Riaz Bhai.... Kaafi dinon se Dikhe Nahi..... I am eagerly waiting for his Pakistani Green take on these no. produced by "meenug".

okey here we go on ALL FIELDS: Top 20 Countries in ALL FIELDS, 1998-August 31, 2008:


Ranked by Papers
Rank Field Papers Citations Citations
Per Paper
1 USA 2,959,661 42,269,694 14.28
2 JAPAN 796,807 7,201,664 9.04
3 GERMANY 766,146 8,787,460 11.47
4 ENGLAND 678,686 8,768,475 12.92
5 PEOPLES R CHINA 573,486 2,646,085 4.61
6 FRANCE 548,279 5,933,187 10.82
7 CANADA 414,248 4,837,825 11.68
8 ITALY 394,428 4,044,512 10.25
9 SPAIN 292,146 2,602,330 8.91
10 RUSSIA 276,801 1,135,496 4.10
11 AUSTRALIA 267,134 2,784,738 10.42
12 INDIA 237,364 1,088,425 4.59
13 NETHERLANDS 231,682 3,148,005 13.59
14 SOUTH KOREA 218,077 1,256,724 5.76
15 SWEDEN 174,418 2,257,641 12.94
16 SWITZERLAND 168,527 2,502,210 14.85
17 BRAZIL 157,860 880,821 5.58
18 TAIWAN 144,807 828,751 5.72
19 POLAND 131,646 766,033 5.82
20 BELGIUM 125,520 1,461,478 11.64
SOURCE: Essential Science Indicators from Thomson Reuters.

Who u r trying to fool my friend with such disinformation ?

Next time take yr lies somewhere else and dump them......


http://sciencewatch.com/dr/cou/2008/08decALL/

@riazhaq:

@@@@@@@@1. According to Science Watch website that tracks science publications, citations of Pakistani research papers/publications are sharply up in multiple fields, ranging from engineering to computer science to material sciences and plant biology. @@@@@@@@

Source: http://sciencewatch.com/dr/rs/08sep-rs/

Pure methane discharge......

According to the same source, here we go for top twenty countries on computer science first where Pakistan is nowhere.....


Rank Country Papers Citations Citations
Per
Paper
1 SWEDEN 3,207 21,675 6.76
2 USA 70,638 374,292 5.30
3 ISRAEL 4,364 20,500 4.70
4 DENMARK 2,096 9,510 4.54
5 SWITZERLAND 4,006 17,898 4.47
6 ENGLAND 15,919 62,960 3.96
7 SCOTLAND 2,182 8,037 3.68
8 CANADA 11,584 41,135 3.55
9 AUSTRALIA 6,654 22,763 3.42
10 NORWAY 1,542 5,181 3.36
11 BELGIUM 3,344 11,080 3.31
12 NETHERLANDS 5,867 19,368 3.30
13 FRANCE 14,731 47,469 3.22
14 GERMANY 18,982 60,956 3.21
15 ITALY 11,531 34,085 2.96
16 SINGAPORE 3,788 10,649 2.81
17 AUSTRIA 2,774 7,625 2.75
18 FINLAND 2,583 6,783 2.63
19 JAPAN 14,714 37,958 2.58
20 INDIA 3,979 9,838 2.47


Your lies are too many to be nailed....Any sane person with common sense would reject your claim of Pakistan, a muslim country having achieved such a success - its not possible against the back drop of quran and hadeeth type teaching n preaching which takes every moslem far away from the realm of science - pro pervez hoodhboy is a wonderful person, read his books about science, islam and rationality.....and get a life...

I have lost all respect for Dr. Hoodbhoy. He is at his best when it comes to criticizing whatever we have achieved or might achieve with limited resources at our disposal.

Some comments in response to this article;

-He keeps on harping the mantra of elating the nation's 'scientific' prowess to the standards of the west, yet he fails to recognize the same when it comes to achievements in the nuclear arena.

-He *fails* to mention the peaceful uses of this technology (in agriculture and medicine, for instance) that Pakistan has successfully integrated into its system, and is heavily investing (in research) in such technologies to extend its benefits to its people.

People like Dr. Hoodbhoy live in an idealistic world of their own, and leave no stone unturned to dampen the nation's spirits with their own insecurities, which have continued to haunt them for the most part of their lives, or worse, might haunt them for the rest of their lives.

I can’t understand it why peoples speak out about Pakistan nuclear capability only on some specific period of time. I have watched some TV programs as well about it on which they are trying to tell that Pakistan has not anything form nuclear capabilities. Why they talk about it only when western media launch campaign against it. Why only on that time??? Are they up to something? I think so. It makes sense.
Nuclear capability is not responsible for the current situation of Pakistan but it is our politicians who failed to deliver. They looted millions of rupees from Pakistan which could be use for the welfare of peoples. and peoples who are working for foreign agendas are responsible for the instability of Pakistan. Who have been paid for arising conflicts in Pakistan, especially when there are problems in Pakistan.
As mentioned in article its not bomb it is peoples who protect Pakistan, yes it is true but it is also true sir it is not bomb its peoples (politicians, fake mullas, and paid intellectuals) who are responsible for instability of Pakistan. Its peoples like Musharaf who follows the instructions of America, its Zardari; it was Benazir who were bringing American agenda here. It is peoples like Altaf Hussain, Fazul Rehman and yes also I said before Paid Intellectuals who only speaks on time of crisis and do nothing but just throwing words.

#340 by RiazHaq

Here's the connection between military and poverty (guns vs bread) as pointed out in the UNICEF report:

Unicef was also critical of high military budgets in the region at the cost of social protection. India is modernizing its armed forces and projecting its power more widely than in the past.

“A number of countries in south Asia decide to invest in the military and not to increase investment in their people.� said Daniel Toole, Unicef’s regional director “Budgetary allocations can be more than 10 per cent in the military, while education is only 2 per cent.�

Moron, if there is one country in South Asia that spends close to the upper limit the Unicef guy mentioned, it is Pakistan. You guys spend almost 5% of your GDP, additionally stealing from US aid money to buy weaponry and God alone knows how much narco-money you spend on buying arms. India spends about 2.5% of its GDP on the military.

Being a numbers guy producing discredited stats all the time, couldn't you find the numbers to show which military spends more?

thanks romair
nice to hear from you.
dont be such a stranger.

shankar #: "I've always scratched my head wondering why there is so much antipathy against Pakistan, in Afghanistan. After all, during the Soviet occupation, nobody helped the poor, displaced Afghans more than Pakistan."

....there is antipathy against pakistan, for the same reason there is antipathy against usa in afghanistan.......right now, the most hated country amongst afghans is the usa......the second most disliked is pakistan.......why....because no one likes a country that tries to control it......

......the usa is occupying afghanistan (not to be confused by the propoganda on us tv shows)......hence it is hated......prior to that, pakistan tried to occupy afghanistan, via taliban.....hence it is disliked......

....pakistan has been able to clear a huge area around swat in a month, from the taliban.......nato has been unable to do so, in afghanistan, over 7 years, despite having orders of magnitude more resources.......why......

because people of swat are on the side of the pakistan military and govt.......while people of afghanistan are not on the side of the usa......

no one likes being occupied......

(in addition, the world used afghanistan (and pakistan) to break up the soviet empire........and it is, now, using afghanistan to take on al-qaeda etc.).......

It is a fact that Pakistan is a nuclear state but it is also true that our governments could not provide basic needs of survival to their people. instead of providing strong foundation to people our government make them fool. Hoodbhpy's article is eye opener for all of us.

tahmed writes "What is also interesting is that the mullah Bacha Saqa was supported by the British in overthrowing the secularist Amanullah who had made Afghanistan too independent of British rule."

Nothing interesting or surprising in it, the US supported the mujahideen against the secular leftist government in Afghanistan, Israel/US supported and built up Hamas as a bullwark against the secular PLO, and the US in particular had been doing that all through the cold war opportunistically using religion and right wing lunatics (like you) to destabilize countries whose governments were pro-people and left. Currently they are supporting the Taliban against the civilian government of Pakistan ensuring that it fails.

What you don't know is that the US supported and facilitated Khomeni's "revolution" and then helped him get rid of the leftists that made overthrowing the shah possible, they handed over ownership of the 'revolution' to the mullahs....

TNITC masadi

What tahmed wont tell you is the US role in manufacturing the Taliban theocracy in Afghanistan, and their current attempts to do the same in Pakistan in order to create an enemy to further its farcical GWOT.

TNITC masadi

tahmedji,

#460

Very informative.
Afghans, for the longest time was very secular & tolerant--& yet devoutly muslim. Its sad to see what has happened to that country.

I've always scratched my head wondering why there is so much antipathy against Pakistan, in Afghanistan. After all, during the Soviet occupation, nobody helped the poor, displaced Afghans more than Pakistan.

Many of them are still in Pakistan & have now their descendants are into the third generation, who have never seen Afghanistan. There ought to be some gratitude for that. Friendship is a 2 way street.

Personally, I think the Soviets, Americans & Zia played the biggest role in Afghan anger.

Goldfinger #459 Bacha Saqa achieved immortality as a result of his short stay in power - "bachay saqay ki hakoomat" is now an urdu phrase to mean a 2-day stint in power.

What is also interesting is that the mullah Bacha Saqa was supported by the British in overthrowing the secularist Amanullah who had made Afghanistan too independent of British rule. And indeed, Afghanistan has a strong tradition of secularism that goes back to the start of the 20th century and which always stood for Afghan independence.

And this secularist tradition carried over into the 1980's when the secular nationaist Ahmed Shah Massoud (the "lion of panjshir") was opposed by Mullah Generals Zia as being too indpendent minded. On the other hand, the mullahs were only too happy to team up with the dictator against Massoud the same way Bacha Saqa had teamed up with the British imperialists against Amanullah.

Thus, the soul-less character of the mullah underneath his mask of "Islam" is very evident from Afghan history of the past century.

Re: # 428

tahmed,

I agree with you on the moolas...I mentioned Ahmed Shah of Bareilly because in the northwest region this appears to be the first instance of megalomaniac bigots trying usurping power by jumping upon the religious bandwagon...this was in the early to mid 1800's...afterwards from January 17 to October 13, 1929, Habibullah Kalkani, who called himself Habibullah Ghazi, another madrassah educated brigand actually seized the throne of Afghanistan. He was an ethnic Tajik, and was also notoriously known as Bacha-i-Sakao (Son of the water carrier), because his father was at one point a water-carrier in the Afghan army. His first order was to change the western attire back to traditional clothing and to remove all the flowers from the presidential grounds and plant vegetables instead. He was eventually captured and executed by firing squad.

Khyber #461 "...IGNORE MASADI EVERYONE"

Masadi who? Do you mean Comrade Mersadis-with-foam-in-the-exhaust??

Alumni he wasn't coopting anyone, he was merely fulfilling the demands of those that got him the office, in other words he was hiring not those who will serve under him but his masters over whom he merely has symbolic presence. He is an even weaker president than GWB.

TNITC masadi

Re: # 454
masadi, I have personally criticized him in the past, particularly over his appointments of people like Rahm Emanuel (AIPAC), Sonal Shah (right-wing India lobby), Hilary Clinton (Democrat party machine), etc. But now I see the wisdom of his choices in co-opting potential opponents (a team of rivals), who would become his biggest problem if they were on the outside attacking him.

While I acknowledge the odds are still against him, but I think he's a lot smarter than is obvious from his resume and his background. He is also very articulate and charismatic, and draws people toward him. I remain hopeful that he will make a positive impact, at least in the short term...until his opponents get organized to stymie his efforts.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Khyber writes "...IGNORE MASADI EVERYONE."

By all means ignore me if you want to and read the sh** that that Hindu bigot pretending to be a pathan is writing as he parrots the propaganda of the perverts sitting in Washington, but this much I can tell you not only do I have a bigger readership on chowk than this moron will ever have, my posts unlike his BS are original. So if you want a steady dose of the garbage that Khyber, tahmed and their kind of sellouts are writing, you really don't need chowk, just listen daily to Bill O'reilly's talking points and Rush Limbaughs radio broadcasts.

TNITC masadi

#453, Alumni WW you forget that Obama went through elite institutions, Columbia and Harvard and then the US senate where the vetting process for the President by the elite takes shape. He has more in common with the previous presidents than with people of his original background though I agree he is more of a wild card for these elite who will get rid of him were he to cross the boundaries, that I assure you, and he understands that very well just look at his flip flopping in the past 3 months.

TNITC masadi

Re: # 448
masadi,
While I understand your skepticism, let's not forget that Obama has sought a new beginning with the Islamic world, as he said in his speech today.

Obama does not come from the elite, privileged background of most of the prior US presidents, especially the Bushes. He has a different perspective.

Obama's words are very different from Bush's words during the last eight years. No more "war on terror". No "crusades". No more of "you are with us, or you are against us" rhetoric.

We need to acknowledge these facts, and react accordingly.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

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http://pukhtunkhwatimes.blogspot.com/

To all friends here,Just remember what MASADI is trying to do here and from now on just ignore his posts and don't reply to him,he is a sick puppy who needs attention,anytime someone is discussing something he jumps in like a monkey and starts his stupid comments...so from now on...IGNORE MASADI EVERYONE.
http://pukhtunkhwatimes.blogspot.com/

Poor,insane,ignorant MASADI...Hey friendly advice,if you are in new york area,I know many psychologists,I really want you to get some mental help.
http://pukhtunkhwatimes.blogspot.com/

I am glad to read the news of arresting criminal, Maulana Sufi Mohammad and his spokesman Maulana Ameer Izzat Khan,they are criminals and are involved in crimes against humanity,Govt should not show any mercy to these terrorists,they should hang them in public for their crimes. No mercy to Taliban and their mouthpieces.Enough is enough,we must not show any lenience to these criminals and their supporters,get rid of them.
http://pukhtunkhwatimes.blogspot.com/

Alumni WW writes "masadi,
Let's acknowledge that Obama is saying all the right things, and hope his words will soon translate into good deeds on the ground."

Come on man, America has been saying the right things since WW2 while doing all the wrong things to reveal its hypocrisy. The "fool me twice" cliche remember that except that it is fool me a thousand times where it concerns the shenanigans of the U.S. elite and its thuggish supporters like tahmed and that Hindu, Pathan wannabe Khyber.

TNITC masadi

Re: # 446..Thanks Tahmed and cheers,hope they hang em in public as Iran did to their terrorists.
http://pukhtunkhwatimes.blogspot.com/

Khyber: Mubarak ho!! Notice how, even at this age, his own life was too valuable to this scoundrel to do what he had no problem doing to others - cutting the throats young men who had "committed the crime" of joining the national police force or army; brainwashing scores of teenagers and older dimwits to go and blow themselves up along with thousands of innocent people.

There is a special place in hell waiting for these bastards. Of that I am sure.

Sufi Mohammad, Ameer Izzat arrested: ISPR

ISLAMABAD ( 2009-06-04 21:00:43 ) :DG ISPR Major General Ather Abbas has confirmed the arresting of TSNM chief Maulana Sufi Mohammad and his spokesman Maulana Ameer Izzat Khan, here on Thursday.

According to ISPR press realease, Syed Wahab, Salman Shah and Maulana Muhammad Alam has also arrested.
http://pukhtunkhwatimes.blogspot.com/

GREAT NEWS.......
Sufi Mohammad, Ameer Izzat arrested: ISPR
ISLAMABAD ( June 04, 2009, 21:00 ) :DG ISPR Major General Ather Abbas has confirmed the arresting of TSNM chief Maulana Sufi Mohammad and his spokesman Maulana Ameer Izzat Khan, here on Thursday.AAJ TV
http://pukhtunkhwatimes.blogspot.com/

Re: # 442..masadi is negative minded person and sounds like a street guy who sells,''PAKORAS'' outside a school,he does not have any positive thinking or skills of constructive criticism,he needs education.I feel sorry for his state of mind,he needs to see a psychologist.
http://pukhtunkhwatimes.blogspot.com/

Re: # 438
masadi,
Let's acknowledge that Obama is saying all the right things, and hope his words will soon translate into good deeds on the ground. He's only been in office just a few months, let's give him a little more time before we pronounce judgment on his performance.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

MASADI....GET A LIFE.
http://pukhtunkhwatimes.blogspot.com/

#428 tahmed don't try to fool people here by trying to promote your unconditional support of colonization through dissing "mullahs"- religion can either be used by the elite to promote the status quo and there are examples a plent of that or it can challenge the status quo as in liberation theology in Latin America- the former use is regressive and oppressive while the latter is liberating. Sellouts like you invert this setup and term the promotion of slavery to the white man as the progressive use of religion while opposition to colonization and enslavement as regressive. The mullahs are small time thugs compared to the colonialists that you support and their goddamned "democracy" which means voting among predetermined candidates, the tweedle dees and dumbs. You don't fool anyone you moron, neither you nor the other thugs who mask their support of colonization through ranting against Mullahs much like the US justified its war on Afghanistan using the imagery of women in Afghanistan while conveniently forgetting what happens to them post invasion and forgetting what it is doing to its own women....

Get some morals, unfortunately you cannot buy them you miserable, sorry excuse for a human being....

TNITC masadi

Majumdar the right wing loon (with apologies) from India like MAJ just because he weakened the Muslims of India and rid India of a chunk of its Muslim population. Tahmed on the other hand is a first rate bigot and worshiper of the white man.

TNITC masadi

The Indian thug Khyber writes "President Obama is a brave president"

He is a very weak and manipualated president. On the one hand these elite make him go on a PR tour of the Muslim world and on the other they destabalize a Muslim nation of 170 million and ensure that the policy status quo remains intact. Obama is a spineless thug much like tahmed except that he fills the symbolic post of President of the US, which translates into peon of the corporations, while tahmed is just a peon in post and in reality....

TNITC masadi

"America is not - and never will be - at war with Islam," declared Barak Hussein Obama in a speech billed as his administration's attempt to mend fences with the Muslim world.

In the last few days and weeks leading up to the speech in Cairo today, President Obama has spoken proudly of American Muslims, even talked about his heritage as the son of a Muslim man.

Obama's openness about his own Muslim heritage comes as a pleasant surprise to Muslims, especially after his presidential campaign last year went to great lengths to keep him away from Muslims, including an incident where a hijab-wearing American Muslim woman was denied a spot on the stage at an Obama rally, but the president showed long ago that he is comfortable talking about his roots, which are addressed in his two biographical books, "Dreams From My Father" and "The Audacity of Hope."

Now, Obama appears to be citing those roots to mend fences with the Islamic world, and persuade elements of Islamic society to rise up and join with the United States against al Qaeda.

He referred to his childhood in Indonesia in an interview with the BBC ahead of his trip. Adviser Denis McDonough did the same on Friday.

Speaking about America's strategy in Afghanistan and Pakistan, Obama said, "We also know that military power alone is not going to solve the problems in Afghanistan and Pakistan. That is why we plan to invest $1.5 billion each year over the next five years to partner with Pakistanis to build schools and hospitals, roads and businesses, and hundreds of millions to help those who have been displaced. And that is why we are providing more than $2.8 billion to help Afghans develop their economy and deliver services that people depend upon."

On Arab-Israeli conflict, Obama asserted, "For decades, there has been a stalemate: two peoples with legitimate aspirations, each with a painful history that makes compromise elusive. It is easy to point fingers - for Palestinians to point to the displacement brought by Israel's founding, and for Israelis to point to the constant hostility and attacks throughout its history from within its borders as well as beyond. But if we see this conflict only from one side or the other, then we will be blind to the truth: the only resolution is for the aspirations of both sides to be met through two states, where Israelis and Palestinians each live in peace and security."


He opened with greetings of gratitude and peace -- "Shukran" and “As-Salaam-Alaikum."

Please read the full-text of the Obama speech at http://www.riazhaq.com/2009/06/obama-speaks-to-muslim-world.html
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

whats about Obama speech in Egypt,President Obama is a brave president. I hope he will open a new chapter with the Islamic world and Arab nations in particular.The part of Obama's speech regarding the Palestinian issue is an important step under new beginnings.He was very generous in his comments about Islam's contributions to civilization. There also hasn't really been any other Western leader who has expressed such commitment to fighting negative stereotypes regarding Muslims.It's one of the most important speeches ever delivered, a key speech for changing the climate in the Middle East. Israel will make a big mistake if it ignores it and doesn't use it to generate a new dialogue with the Muslim world.
http://pukhtunkhwatimes.blogspot.com/

Re: # 432 Tahmed

Jinnah also condemned the subcontinent's Muslim community to live in two, and then three states. A 500M+ muslim community would quite easily have been able to protect its rights against an 'intolerant majority'. He is no favorite of India's muslims.

Re: # 424 The time may not be right for it. Don't forget that the oldest rivalry in Asia is that between China and Japan (nearly 1,000 years old). India and the Islamic world have nothing like it.

He He He, What is great power boss?
Indians? You mean Hindus or Hindus and Muslims and
others?
So Indians who were just coming out of colonialism
were considering themselves great power and Jinnah
did not like that and so he shattered that dream and in
the process of shattering that dream, millions got killed and displaced?

And Pakistani Muslims have turned out to be tolerant majority compared to Indian Hindus in past 60+ years?
Interesting...

majumdar bhai: Indians hate Jinnah because he shattered their "Great Power" dreams. We Pakistanis love him because from he gave us independence from rule by an intolerant majority. I have nothing against India, although I think it would be a great power anyway if it had more individuals like you and fewer individuals who are no better than our mullahs - i.e. they can only bicker and berate others, and live in a win-lose world.

Riaz Haq #424: "But my own thinking is that there is too much mistrust among Asians, and too many forces arrayed against Asian Union, most of all the United States and Europe."

Asian Union? With all due respect, which planet is this Asia in that you are talking about? And, for good measure, I see you have created a mythical "US opposition" to this mythical "Asia Union". Balley, balley.

Tahmed sahib,

grooming a middle class that gave rise to the great Indian political leaders like Nehru.

Well, actually the one great political leader that the British system in India created was our beloved Qaid (pbuh). Sadly thanks to the mullahs that you lament led by Maulana Murdoodi (an import from India incidentally- no wonder Indians get your goat)his legacy and democracy got delayed in Pak by almost half a century.

Regards

Tahmed sahib,

grooming a middle class that gave rise to the great Indian political leaders like Nehru.

Well, actually the one great political leader that the British system in India created was our beloved Qaid (pbuh). Sadly thanks to the mullahs that you lament led by Maulana Murdoodi (an import from India incidentally- no wonder Indians get your goat)his legacy and democracy got delayed in Pak by almost half a century.

Regards

Goldfinger #419 true about Ahmed Shah Bereilly. but he was not the "original demon" - there was a flock of the same demons who opposed with their usual fatwas of "kafir" attempts by Sir Syeds at getting muslims to stick their heads out of the sand and get education. Lesser known, but equally prevalent, were the mullahs of the middle east - from the ones who chased ibn sina out of town to the mullahs of istanbul who opposed the abolishment of slavery in the mid-19th century in the Ottoman empire, saying this was a trick by the British against Islam.

Then there were the mullah clowns of early 20th century India - the Maulana Ali brothers, one of whom spent 4 years in jail for preaching for the retention of the king, aka caliphate, as well as other "aalims" like Hasrat Mohani and Maulana Abul Kalam Azad. While heroes to muslims at that time, and even to many muslims even today - time has shown these "aalims" to be total ignoramus's even on the very issue they talked so loudly about - i.e., unkown to these fools, the Turks themselves decided that they had had enough of the corrupt Caliphate and got rid of it.

As time has passed, it has also become clear that it was the Brits - who transformed India into a democracy by introducing proper education and democratic institutions like a written Constitution with checks and balances and grooming a middle class that gave rise to the great Indian political leaders like Nehru. And these "aalims" of the Indian muslims were dead wrong in supporting the Caliphate.

And today - the taliban are the fringe group calling for a "muslim caliphate" while the vast majority of Pakistanis have rejected autocracy and embraced democracy and basic rights. As they say - the fool ultimately does the same thing as the wise man, but only much later and after incurring much greater cost by learning the hard way. So today, only the most primitive and the most ignorant are saying what the "aalim faazils" were saying a century ago in the "muslim world".

Maintaining an army is not a luxury a democratic and poor country can afford. India has had to upgrade its defence preparedness since it faces two adversaries who have already attacked it before.
If the Chinese return Aksai Chin and Pakistan withdraws from Kashmir occupied by it, India would definitely scale down its force levels.

I have talked about generally accepted development models of economies.

Indonesia is not even discussed / taught as a model of economic development whereas the others are, at least while I was studying in earli 90s. I do not know much about Indonesia.

I know Pakistan and South Korea were mentioned, but BiGE (Big Government and Economies class) Professor dropped Pakistan, if I remember correctly because its growth lacked value creation and was not export oriented in late 50s - early 60s, and late 90s spurt was due to consumerism.

India was not been discussed, and till early 90s data was not regarded as reliable and hence ignored. Chinese data was also suspect, but China is being discussed only lately as the model for economic development.

Even today there is no consensus among all economists that Indian economy can grow into regional of world economy, if region is beyond South Asia. Historically too, Chinese and Indian economies were complementary to each other and rarely competed with each other for markets in Europe.

50% of India's GDP (in 90s, may be more now for some states) is controlled at the state level. This 505 is not easy to reform. This includes power generation, and surface transport. Apparently nuclear power will be separate and not at state level. That is why there is uneven growth, Gujrat on one hand at W. Bengal on the other. It is the economic success (hardly because of Modi) that keeps him in power. Inter state commerce generates revenues for states who are reluctant to simplify.

Re: # 421

Taiwan is too small, and it was mainly propped up by US against mainland China, even given a perm seat on UN Security Council that was a joke. ASEAN, with Indonesia, is closer in terms of size, poverty and agrarian roots of the subcontinent.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 420
Thanks Pew,

I have read the book and written a blog post about it last year.

Here's the part I like about it:

If the Asians can manage their relations peacefully, it will not only help China make a successful transition to the world's great superpower, but a strong Indian performance might succeed in lifting people out of poverty throughout the whole subcontinent, including Pakistan and Bangladesh. The self-confidence that such an outcome would foster would make it easier for the three main powers (China, India, Japan) to work together and, with the rest of Asia, to create a true single economy along the lines of the European Union.

But my own thinking is that there is too much mistrust among Asians, and too many forces arrayed against Asian Union, most of all the United States and Europe.

BTW, Prof Aggarwal of Berkeley is a strong advocate of Asian Union, by making SAARC and ASEAN more effective and then combining the two. I like the idea, but again, given the SAARC experience, I have low hopes for it.

Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 415

Masadi:

You have no knowledge, all you have is rhetorics and nonsense. Your brain is fried from 7th century and Mills, so you cannot even learn. You imagine and brag (4 year funding for Ph.D. at Univ. of Edinburgh - where Ph.D.'s are completed in three), if that does not work then you abuse.

Re: # 416

Taiwan and Korea both had repressive dictators. Korea the development are through five large corporations, whereas in Taiwan it was more entrepreneurial.

Re: # 416

Riaz:

ASEAN model is the same as Taiwan model.

Re: # 399 Riaz

Check out this book:

"Rivals: How the Power Struggle Between China, India, and Japan Will Shape Our Next Decade" by Bill Emmott

Re: # 361

tahmed...well said...however your statement: "our military has turned the taliban from "unbeatable warriors" whom even Britain when it was a world power could not beat (as rogue generals like hamid gul never tired of reminding us) in the 19th century, nor the world superpower soviet union in the 20th..." needs a slight correction...this bearded scourge is only a 20th century manifestation...they did not exist in the times when the Brits were haggled by Afghans in the 19th century...of course during the 1800's a fore-runner of these bearded fanatics had ascended upon the people of the Northwest from the Indian city of Bareilly under the leadership of a Maulana Ahmed Shah Bareilly whom the people tolerated for a while, but when he started becoming a nuisance to them like his present day reincarnation the bearded demons, on a preset signal of a fire on a hill, all the people rose against him as one, and he had to run away with with a handful of his followers. He and his followers were killed by the Sikhs near Balakot, Hazara, in a last desperate battle. Thus came to an end the very brief first incarnation of the Reign of The Bearded Demons.

President Obama Zindabad!!
Pakistan Zindabad!!
USA Paindabad!!

Masadi Murdabad!!
Masadi, the Peon of the Taliban, Murdabad!!

#415 hmmmmm...masadi was so furiously red-flagging my posts he flagged his own post as well. Could this be considered a case of friendly fire??

Re: # 410
You forgot my preferred development model: The ASEAN model, which is closer to home. Powerful and benevolent, and sometimes repressive, executive that pushes the human development forward, and brushes aside all obstacles in its path. In the end, you lose a few people who challenge the strongmen, which is regrettable, but you save many more millions that would have otherwise died from poverty, hunger and disease.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Anil writes "There is just no short cut."

Yes there is, throw your computer away and don't waste our time with this BS. Tell that to Obama who just in a few days sunk $20 B of the public's money when GM declared bankruptcy, and then he wants to put $30B more into a negative net worth company, tell that to him, he and his corporate sponsors think that fleecing the public to resuscitate failing capitalism is a 'short cut' to success...

TNITC masadi

a red flag? that friendly advice bothered you, Comrade Mersadis??? OK, keep foaming then. Just dont say no one told you when your keyboard goes dead - then you will have nothing left to live for.

masadi #411 dont go commie on me, Comrade Mersedis.

Masadi: You need to wipe that foam off your mouth when you write. If it drips on the keyboard, it could cause it to short circuit.

tahmed writes "and so is some really lowly job like shoeshine boy"

How come fleecing humanity as CEO of the big corporations, dressed in Armani and riding SUVs is a prestigeous job and a hardworking, doing an honest day's job shoe shiner becomes "lowly" for spineless folk like tahmed?

No Riaz, my point is no that you are defending or not.
My point is about development ofeconomies with limited resources. There are four or five models that are available, Chinese is one of them, Turkish, Korean, Taiwanese and Latin American are other. Turkish and Latin American countries printed money, Chinese did not, and India not doing that either. Currency devaluations and inflation in Turkey and Latin America were legendary. There is just no short cut.

Regarding Pakistan, India rivalry. I am with you.

tahmed of course you would agree with Okhla, you would gladly sell Pakistan and the world for the desires of your masters- who btw started this war, this farce the Global War on terrorism is not only America's war, it is America's war on the world in its methodology that has by FORCE changed the agenda of the world from pressing issues like hunger and poverty to this BS about terrorism where the nations that do not want to participate in this farce are destabalized using the all too convenient CIA funded thugs and forced to join giving new elaboration to the Bush's BS "you are either with us or with the terrorists". No moron, YOU ARE the terrorist, so you want to say, "you are either with us or with us"-

Re: # 406
Anil, I am not defending Pakistan's record on outsized military spending, just pointing out that India has set the wrong tone as the the bigger nation in the neighborhood.

Neither Pakistan nor India can or should continue this stupid arms race, with India using China as its excuse, and Pakistan citing India's current arms buildup, the largest in its history.

Both need to recognize, in words and deeds, that people are their biggest resource who must be developed and made much more productive.

And don't even talk about China, it has left both India and Pakistan in the dust.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

okla400: couldnt agree more. i was merely pointing to the fact that things HAVE changed following the swat deal - the true face of the taliban has been exposed. now people talk about putting an end to the taliban - not merely tolerating them, or giving them extra-constitutional powers to "negotiate" with the government as they were. and i am all for that. the taliban started this war, pakistan should end this war when the last taliban is dead, captured, or clean shaven and with a real job (even if the job reflects his low level of education and skills, and so is some really lowly job like shoeshine boy, masadi's boss, and indian IT programmer, or something like that).

Riaz:

Do you know who said that "we would eat grass for 1,000 years, but we will have nuclear bomb" (or something like this)?

It seems your memories are long on India, and very short on Pakistan. You need to change it, if you want to make any significant contribution in your country.

On the largest country statement. Do you know what China did to control its resources to develop coastal China and that too near Hong Kong?

Let me give you a clue, they did not pay farm workers, and even restricted movement of workers from rural into coastal area?

I think you need to be a serious student of development economies. BTW, you, unless you lived in abundance, must have done that for yourself in your family when resources were / are limited.

Don't you think it will be better this way, than the calptomaniac ways in some countries?

Re: # 402
I think the admiration for US and Israel, even envy, is very widely and deeply felt, specially among the Indian middle class who make policy decisions. So I wouldn't rule out the possibility of India becoming more like Israel of its region.

It has already begun to side with US on crucial issues, such Iran's nuke program.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 400
I see hunger and poverty and lack of opportunity as the root cause of most of the ethnic, religious and other forms of violence. And it is further complicated when nations with the largest number of poor and hungry choose to spend more on military than on fighting poverty, hunger and disease.

In fact, letting millions die of hunger each year, is what Amatya Sen calls "quiet violence", a form of ongoing violence that claims far more lives than all of the other causes of violence combined.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

okhla #400 this CIA inspired rant will just not cut it. Your crying over the taxes that 0.0001% of Pakistanis have to pay when over 80% don't get adequate food due to living below $2 a day seems like an agenda driven pathetic attempt at getting Americas concerns that help its ultra rich at the top of the agenda while sacrificing tens of millions of Pakistanis- wont cut it moron.

TNITC masadi

Riaz:

As I said, Indians are a bit more sensible than to fall into the US trap, although I think that that "trap" is no longer available as Americans are thinking more in terms of a bipolar world divided between themselves and China. There is serious talk of G-2 to supercede G8 and G20. India, too, is thinking of China as a close economic partner and less as a rival. Maybe, if through some miracle, Indians can get their act together and start to develop at a Chinese pace, they may start to think of being rival to China but, as of now, Beijing dur ast.

Re: # 396 riaz sahib,
i understand what u r saying. my main concern is that one comes to a point beyond which we are looking at the law of diminishing returns. at that point, we r simply talking past each other and further complicating,instead of helping, the already complex and difficult situations.

so unless there is some shift in mindsets on both sides, may be we should just give it a rest (beyond, of course, setting the record straight when ridiculous claims are made against the state and the people of pakistan).

just my 2 cents worth ...

Masadi, Riaz & Tahmed,

Fantastic!! Simply Fantastic !!!

So let us all continue to ignore that :

1. In June 2009, some of our own countrymen are supposed to pay medieval taxes like Jiziya and we , politically or judicially, as a nation, are helpless to do anything about it.

2. Our police/ ISI buildings are blownup in broad daylight and we are helpless to do anything about it.

3. We find the hunger statistics for India more important to discuss. Why can we not concentrate on getting/saving our own homeland rather than waste breath/energy on irrelevant rhetoric?

4. Why do we continue to ignore the elephants in the room?

Time to get the perspective right, bros.

Re: # 397
DM,
Beyond warms and fuzzies, I do see long-term convergence of US and Indian interests in the region, mainly driven by the shared fear of the Chinese. Japan and Korea are also suspicious of the Chinese behemoth, and may receive US encouragement of their fears. This US-induced rivalry will essentially prevent the emergence of Asian Union, which would be a perceived win for US, but not necessarily for India or other Asian nations.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

KHYBER#397:

I do not know what evidence the Indians have provided re. Saeed. In any case, I would be surprised if Indians know anything about Saeed that Pakistanis, esp. ISI, do not know. He is their prized asset and has never done anything against Pakistan. In all probability, he would prove useful to the Pakistanis in dealing with the "good taleban" in Sarhad. If you see the quote I gave of the Prosecutor, he did not say that there was no evidence against him but that no evidence was necessary.
Pakistan gains nothing by going after Saeed who is quite popular for his charitable activities, if not for his lashkari duties.

Riaz:

What you said was true of Bush's America but not of Obama's America. Obama has a different worldview and a very different international agenda from that of Bush.

You may call it wishful thinking on my part but I do not share your views about India. I think that the Indians would fiercely protect their independence in foreign sphere. MMS would say similar warm and fuzzy words when he visits Russia. Indians would certainly have strategic alliance with the US when it suits them but not at the cost of losing their independence.

Re: # 394
banjara,
We can do both at the same time.
I write about all of South Asia, and do my part to contribute to solving the problems we all face in the region. Wholehearted recognition and honest discussion are the first steps toward resolution. Please take a look at my blog where I constantly talk about the issues of poverty, hunger, malnutrition, education, health and sanitation in Pakistan as well as its neighborhood.

Part of the problem, as UNCIEF report points out, is both nations spend 5-8 times more on military than on domestic programs designed to alleviate poverty and hunger and promote education and healthcare. And clearly, India, the worst in terms of basic social indicators of hunger and poverty, is fueling this crazy South Asian arms race. It continues to show a total lack of leadership on this front.

Both nations have failed miserably, and continue to fail their people on this front. China, an authoritarian regime, has shown far more concern for its people by massive spending on education, healthcare and poverty alleviation and it is being cited as a model of success by UNICEF and others.

In Poverty-Hunger Index(PHI), designed to measure progress toward UN's Millennium Development Goals (MDGs), China, ranked 31, is closest to achieving these goals, followed by laggards such as Pakistan at 45, India at 62, and Bangladesh at 67.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Editorial: L’affaire Hafiz Saeed
DAILY TIMES

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2009
http://pukhtunkhwatimes.blogspot.com/

Re: # 393 riaz saab,
all else aside, can we leave india for indians to worry about, and focus instead on solving our own problems in pakistan?

Re: # 365
Matloob,
Unfortunately, many of the egotistic, but insecure and nouveau riche, Indians on Chowk do not want to openly acknowledge or honestly talk about the serious problem of hunger and poverty that India's PM Manmohan Singh has called a "national shame."

Nor they do want to hear anything about the spreading Maoists insurgency, driven mainly by hunger and poverty, which is described by Mr. Singh as "the greatest threat to India's internal security since the country's independence".

Indian writer Pankaj Mishra has decried this predictable NRI response to anything unflattering written about India as follows: "Predictably Hindu nationalists, most of them resident in the UK and US, inundated my email inbox, accusing me of showing India in a bad light."
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 384dost..I think TAHMED is not supporting terrorist Hafiz but what he is saying is that Indian Govt was unable to provide enough evidence to support their version so Pakistani Govt could punish this terrorist,although I can't talk about others views here but I think that is reality that Indian Govt till now did not provide enough evidence or other info so Islamabad could punish those behind attacks in India.
http://pukhtunkhwatimes.blogspot.com/

Re: # 367

The way the US can retain significant power and influence in a multipolar world is by co-opting some of these emerging nations. The ones that seems ready to play ball are India and established economic powers like Germany and Japan, who have economically benefited from globalization under the US leadership. Others, such as Russia, China and Brazil, who have also benefited from globalization, are not willing to be co-opted by the US.

In my opinion, India appears to be well on its way to join the US as a close ally in this emerging new multipolar world. There is a burgeoning US-India relationship in almost all spheres. Indian Prime Minister Mr. Manmohan Singh summed it up well when he said to former President Bush on his visit to the White House last year, "The people of India deeply love you."

The Prime Minister continued with the theme of affection and gratitude by adding, “In the last four and half years that I have been Prime Minister, I have been the recipient of your generosity, your affection, your friendship. It means a lot to me and to the people of India.�

Later, India's Foreign Secretary Shiv Shankar Menon explained: “I think, if you look at the public opinion polls, the ratings for President Bush are higher in India than in any other country. That is the factual basis.�

As the US-China rivalry grows and US and India continue to build ever closer ties, it is very likely that Pakistan will be forced to make a choice and grow away from the US and closer to China in the years ahead. This decision will be driven partly by the powerful anti-US currents in Pakistan's public opinion.


http://www.riazhaq.com/2009/05/godfathers-vito-corleone-metaphor-f or.html
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

pew, aleph:

I should restrain myself from responding to you lest I should misrepresent tahmed saheb.

okhla asks "Also, when Police/ ISI offices are attacked/demolished by the Taliban with impunity, and we let off Sayeed, would this not greatly encourage the Taliban?"

Those "Taliban" whoever the hell they are probably don't know any Sayeed- this US/Indian propaganda just does not cut it. So the Pakistan Police and ISI become all important to you now when they can be used as fodder to gain sympathy while at other times you use the same agencies to show them as tyrannous in order to fulfill your other agendas. Man, this CIA hypocrisy makes one sick- and please answer my question, the million or so killed and several million displaced and maimed by the illegal thuggish US war on Iraq, who brought those terrorists to justice, why are they roaming around free? and does their roaming around free not encourage others like them in the US establishment to embark on other such barbaric wars of carnage, as they now do with Pakistan what they previously did to Afghanistan and Iraq....Okhla and others like him with the morals of a rotting slug will not know the difference they will just parrot the official US propaganda as they "enjoy their day at fishing"- that by the way was the only "literary" piece this moron has managed to write to date....

TNITC masadi

Okhla writes "Time to get the perspective right, bros"

This CIA thug is back at it. You moron hunger affects more people in Pakistan and India than the entire Sikh population of the world and you are talking about priorities? This CIA propaganda about the Taliban, the 2000 odd US funded thugs just does not cut it. You stink tank like the Taliban is probably CIA funded as well....

TNITC masadi

Re: # 384 Dost

"...accept a criticism form a Pakistani or a Muslim that he wouldn't from a Hindu or an Indian..."

That raises two points: a) whether it is a matter of 'criticism' or simply the logical thing to do based on Tahmed's past stated positions, and b) what does the religious affiliation of the complainant have to do with this? What 'religion' does the UN belong to?

"...I would be surprised if he supported Hafiz Sayeed. .."
That is not the point. As Aleph puts it, does Tahmed find, "Mullahs are acceptable to prophet sahib after all as long as they know their appointed role and station and advance the interests of the Pakistani elite."?

Tahmed's past collective positions certainly seem to support Aleph's viewpoint, don't they?

dm #384

{{I would be surprised if he supported Hafiz Sayeed.}}

He might not support Hafiz Saeed or his interpretation of Islam - after all, as we well know, prophet32 alone knows the true essence of Islam. But in his own humble way, he is trying to do his bit to facilitate Saeed's activities by parrying questions about why he is allowed to function unimpeded. In American football terms, he is running interference for Hafiz Saeed's campaign of terrorism in India.

Re: # 384 DM you are on the money here (T).

One thing I must admit, and you will have to agree is that he is a terrific devotee of Hanuman, and is one the great Bhakts of sri Ram on chowk.

The number of times he chants these names, just simply takes your breath away

Pew#381:

Tahmed saheb certainly does not need my help to explain his standpoint. But in my opinion, he sometimes would accept a criticism form a Pakistani or a Muslim that he wouldn't from a Hindu or an Indian. And while I have not followed this thread, I would be surprised if he supported Hafiz Sayeed.

Re #382

"intemperately"

dm #374

{{Why would you expect tahmed saheb to view Hafiz Sayeed in the same way that Indians do?}}

I for one don't. But you may recall that prophet sahib has been known to rage most imperately at the learned divines Qazi Hussain Ahmed and Maulana Fazlur Rehman, calls them 'bearded scoundrels', derides the latter's portliness, etc. It is amusing and instructive that he starts singing a completely different tune when another profusely bearded man of the cloth, the even more corpulent Hafiz Muhammed Saeed, heaves into view. Mullahs are acceptable to prophet sahib after all as long as they know their appointed role and station and advance the interests of the Pakistani elite.

Re: # 374 Dost

"...Why would you expect tahmed saheb to view Hafiz Sayeed in the same way that Indians do? ..."

Because Tahmed has written frequently about (i) improving ties with India, (ii) eliminating the mullah menace (iii) high confidence in Pakistan's judicial system, (iv) the disapproval of Pak military's strategy of arming militants, (v) frequent referrals to the virtue of self-responsibility as described in the Koran. In many regards, his views with Indians should be congruent. So, I am surprised why his position is nearly opposite! Could Aleph be right?

Worried about the release of Hafiz Saeed, read the following story published in Dawn May 31, 2009.

http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/the-newsp aper/front-page/from-much-sought-after-to-most-wanted-159

Re: # 370 A pakistani talking about due process of law.....:D :D

har har! Riaz, you do know how to take the piece(T)

Re: # 373

Dost - Also see this link.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/feedarticle/8530206

India during the last couple of weeks has started warming up to the idea of a an alternate to dollar currency along with BRIC. BRIC summit is on 16-June in Moscow, I think. This will raise hackles in Washington, for sure.

Re: # 370 Riaz

"...Either you believe in rule of law, or you don't..."

This is not an issue of 'not believing in the rule of law'. Of course, we all do. The issue is: Were the Pakistani authorities sincere in prosecuting Sayeed with the full weight of the law?

Re: # 360 Tahmed

"...our point that he was once the head of a terrorist organization..."

Not was. He is.

"...there has been no evidence made public by the indian government on this account, so the judge ordered him released..."

Like I wrote previously, it is an indicator of Pakistan's intentions on what it decides to do with Sayeed. This simply reinforces the hypothesis that Pakistan is not interested (as Dost Mittar pointed out, and how the US Govt. is now reacting: "U.S. criticizes Pakistan for releasing Saeed" http://in.news.yahoo.com/137/20090603/738/tnl-u-s-criticizes-pakistan-for-releas in.html )

"...dont expect the judicial system to solve political problems..."

What 'political problem' are you alluding to? Sayeed is the current head of a UN-proscribed organization. What are the political impediments?

Re: # 373

Dost - You are absolutely correct from a pragmatic foreign policy standpoint. However, the point that I was making is not from an Indian or American standpoint but from a moralistic stanpoint. I am obviously aware that morals mean crap when it comes to foreign policy.

Re:change in Indian mindset resulting from Obama strategy. There are clear signals that it is already happening.

The other day I came across a recent policy speech by Shyam Saran, Indian PM's special envoy.

Here's the link:

http://meaindia.nic.in/cgi-bin/db2www/meaxpsite/coverpage.d2w/coverpg?s ec=ss&filename=speech/2009/02/28ss02.htm

In this speech Saran articulately links how India should shape its national and foreign policy to the still developing global financial situation.

Pew#371:

Why would you expect tahmed saheb to view Hafiz Sayeed in the same way that Indians do?

dude#368:

The US does not see Pakistan through Indian eyes. If anything, it views the extremist problem in Pakistan through the liberal Pakistani viewpoint; namely that Pakistani army, with its ISI, dominates Pakistan because the Pakistanis in general share their obsession with India and the problem of extremism in Pakistan is a direct result of the army's use of "strategic assets" to balance the superior army might of its neighbour. The only way this obsession can be decreased, according to this view, is to address Pakistani concerns vis-a-vis Kashmir and other issues. Since India is not willing to cooperate with the Obama administration to address those concerns, Obama is not going to be sensitive to Indian concerns re. Pakistan's strategic assets. Indians are not as smart as they think they are, so they are taking it longer to understand this change.

Re: # 359 Aleph

"...Yet when it comes to an obese Punjabi mullah who has in full public view and for more than a decade been the point man for the JuD/LeT and its terrorism in India, he gets all legalistic..."

You made the point quite elegantly. I was giving Tahmed some rope (but not to hang himself)

Re: # 354 Dost

"...Why do Indians expect Pakistanis to prosecute someone who serves their strategic interests? ..."

Agreed. The issue is whether the 'ordinary' Pakistani (e.g. Tahmed32) view this just as you do, or one in which justice was served since no 'evidence' was produced.

Re: # 346

Any declaration of who is terrorist by US, UK, India, Pakistan or anyone else is not sufficient proof in a court of law. It requires due process, evidence and trial. In most instances, such proof has been sorely lacking. Just look at how innocent people were picked up by Americans in Afghanistan and Iraq, jailed and tortured, but most had to be eventually released because the charges against them could not proved. Either you believe in rule of law, or you don't. You can't just make allegations and expect such allegations to be upheld in a court...any courts, US, UK, Indian, Pakistani, etc.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

It is often said, "Judge a Society by How It Treats Its Most Vulnerable Members".

By this measure, India has clearly performed worse than almost any other country of the world, including its beighbors.

There is nothing more basic than food for the poor and hungry children. According to economist Amartya Sen, who won the Nobel Prize for his work on hunger, India has fared worse than any other country in the world at preventing recurring hunger.

In the context of unprecedented economic growth (9-10 percent annually) and national food security, over 60 percent of Indian children are wasted, stunted, underweight or a combination of the above. As a result, India ranks number 62 along with Bangladesh at 67 in the PHI (Poverty Hunger Index)ranking out of a total of 81 countries. Both nations are included among the low performing countries in progress towards MDG1 (Millennium Development Goals) with countries such as Nepal (number 58), Ethiopia (number 60), or Zimbabwe (number 74).

Pakistan ranks well ahead of India at 45 and it is included in the medium performing countries. PHI is a new composite indicator – the Poverty and Hunger Index (PHI) – developed to measure countries’ performance towards achieving MDG1 on halving poverty and hunger by 2015. The PHI combines all five official MDG1 indicators, including a) the proportion of population living on less than US$ 1/day, b) poverty gap ratio, c) share of the poorest quintile in national income or consumption, d) prevalence of underweight in children under five years of age, and d) the proportion of population undernourished.

None of us can be proud of the South Asian record on lack of sanitation and health issues in general. But, let me repeat what UNICEF says about it when comparing India with Pakistan, Bangladesh and Afghanistan:


India might be an emerging economic power, but it is way behind Pakistan, Bangladesh and even Afghanistan in providing basic sanitation facilities, a key reason behind the death of 2.1 million children under five in the country.

Lizette Burgers, chief of water and environment sanitation of the Unicef, recently said India is making progress in providing sanitation but it lags behind most of the other countries in South Asia. A former Indian minister Mr Raghuvansh Prasad Singh told the BBC that more than 65% of India's rural population defecated in the open, along roadsides, railway tracks and fields, generating huge amounts of excrement every day.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 367

dost - Yes, India is on her own as is any sovereign country.

America, despite the fresh eyes of a new presidency, continues to fail to see this insane state AS IT IS rather than how it SHOULD BE. Paying billions of dollars to a bunch of utterly corrupt goons to watch a bad movie. This is called a foreign and military policy!?

The Obama administration will learn its lessons the hard way - after a few years.

As long as they (Mullah Omar and Saeed) and others like him are free, Pakistan will remain a terror state. Until Pakistan shows it is serious about taking down the leadership of the Taliban (all varieties), Lashkar-e-Taiba, Jaish-e-Mohammed, these groups will regenerate and prosper. And law enforcement in Pakistan will shy away from taking them on.

A few years ago most Pakistanis used to say no Taliban will ever harm Pakistanis. Guess what, some of them are beheading/killing fellow Pakistanis now. In a few years time, the brand of terrorists Pakistan currently supports (Afghan Taliban and Punjabi Kashmiri groups) will come back and bite them.
Pakistan is doomed for failure sooner or later - unless it realizes this.

dude:

"No self respecting country would have anything to do with it."

Dream on! Pakistan is crucially important for the world, esp. the US. The US under Obama has changed its policy towards Pakistan and it is now more concerned with collaborating with Pakistanis than with the army. A good indicator is the reaction to Hafiz's release: while Holbrook initially expressed some unhappiness, he soon changed his stance (presumably after receiving instructions from above) and said that he doesn't want to interfere with Pakistan's judicial process. The US has certainly decided to be sensitive to Pak sensitivities while fighting 'bad' taleban.

India is on her own!

MatloobZaman,

No, my contention is that, hateful people like Riaz
are not doing this out of any concern, but just to
score points. His concerns are not genuine, he does
not care for those people.
Anyway, I have no time to waste time on discussing
dime-a-dozen people like Riaz, they are not worthy of
any attention.

Re: # 358
Why is it necessary to stop people from expressing their views based on reality?
Malnourishment is not good and thats is what he highlighted in his remarks, nothing he mentioned is out of reality or made up.

dude: good. lets draw upon the high moral standards of indians and talk about the election of proclaimed criminal modi.

Re: # 341
For the defecation specialist from Pakistan, here is report on how the Pakistanis do it:
------------------------------------------------------------
But in rural Pakistan open defecation is hardly a laughing matter.

Although modern toilets are plentiful across urban parts of Pakistan, basic latrines are less common in rural areas where about 65 percent of the country’s 165 million inhabitants live.

This in turn will impede the country’s UN Millennium Development Goal of reducing by half the proportion of people without access to basic sanitation by 2015.

Close to 80 percent of households in Battian Union Council - where Kamra is located - have no access to functioning latrines, which means adults and children alike have no option but to defecate in the open.

Of Battian’s nearly 10,000 inhabitants, only one in four has access to a toilet that works: Ending defecation in the open will need more than just building toilets - building awareness will also be key.

One local non-governmental organisation (NGO) spearheading that campaign is Pakistan’s Rural Support Programmes Network (RSPN), based in Islamabad.

Since June 2007, the UK-funded RSPN programme has been working in three rural union councils in Pakistan, including Battian in Punjab Province, Samaro in Sindh, as well as Danyore in Pakistan’s Federally Administered Northern Areas.

“The object of this programme is to declare a village open defecation-free by bringing about behaviourial change through mobilisation,� Enayat Ur Rehman, RSPN’s programme officer – health, told IRIN.

Old habits die hard

But changing habits does not come easy.

Earlier efforts by groups to build latrines in the area failed largely because they did not include local residents in the building process, but also because they failed to point out to people the many health and financial benefits latrines can bring.

As a result, residents could not maintain the latrines or simply did not really understand their value - a fact RSPN was quick to pick up on.

Shame, shock and disgust

Photo: David Swanson/IRIN
Until recently, Mohammad Ahmad Nafees defecated in the field behind his house

Part of RSPN’s campaign to raise awareness is to develop a sense of shame, shock and disgust among local residents regarding their current toilet practices - in an effort to get communities themselves to understand the latrines’ true importance and the solution.

Facilitated by social mobilisers from the community, residents visit those areas commonly used for defecation purposes in their village.

Once there, they are then asked to calculate approximately how much human excrement they might produce on a daily basis - an embarrassing, but revealing moment for all.

Assuming World Health Organization estimates that the average person can produce as much as 1.5 kilos of faeces and urine per day, Kamra’s residents produce close to 3,000 kilos of waste daily or upwards of 20,000 kilos a week - all out in the open.

“Many of them had no idea how big a problem it really was - or the health implications,� Ur Rehman said.

But with piles of excrement in Kamra’s surrounding fields, the risk that germs could be brought back into their homes and find their way into their food, either on their shoes, or through other sources, including livestock or local springs from which residents drink, was soon understood.
--------------------------------------------------------
The complete report which is datelined Kamra 03 June 2009 can be read on the IRIN website

The message is clear: Pakstanis outshit Indians any time

There's no point talking about Hafeez or any other terrorist on this forum.

Pakistan is bankrupt ethically and financially to its core.
No self respecting country would have anything to do with it.

okla #353: Let us for once catch the Pakistan government when it is doing something right - in a few short weeks, our military has turned the taliban from "unbeatable warriors" whom even Britain when it was a world power could not beat (as rogue generals like hamid gul never tired of reminding us) in the 19th century, nor the world superpower soviet union in the 20th, into a bunch of ninnies shaving off their beards and getting caught trying to escape in burqas and high heels. secondly, their bluff on "sharia law" as being their motivating force has been called by the civilian government. thirdly, their moral pedestal of "moral piety" has been pulled from under them thanks to the media and modern technology.

so it is not business as it has been for these former "custodians of islam" that it had been under musharraf. i am not saying we have won the war - but there has been a sea change in the attitude of pakistan and pakistanis towards the taliban.

pew_research: saeed was arrested on charges of involvement in the mumbai attack. there has been no evidence made public by the indian government on this account, so the judge ordered him released. your point that he was once the head of a terrorist organization goes outside this particular case.

So, like i said earlier to khyber and others - i am not saying dont do anything about saeed. what i am saying is dont use a flyswatter to drive a nail and a hammer to kill a fly. dont expect the judicial system to solve political problems.

Pew_Research #342, #346, #350

Understand that prophet32's positions are driven solely by his perceived interests, not any adherence to lofty principles of justice and rule of law that he pretends to espouse. This worthy engages in raucous cheerleading when 'mullah-dogs' are hunted down from helicopter gunships in Swat. He will describe the mullah-dawgs of Swat as Arbi-Afghan enemies of Pakistan, not as Pakistani citizens entitled to due process of law. And in general he is never short on vile abuse for 'bearded scoundrels'.

Yet when it comes to an obese Punjabi mullah who has in full public view and for more than a decade been the point man for the JuD/LeT and its terrorism in India, he gets all legalistic. He doesn't want to admit the clear likelihood that Saeed has been hand-in-glove with the Pakistani establishment throughout this period - including when he was incarcerated. Saeed's targets are Indians and therefore his activities were really quite kosher. In fact he is doing Allah's work by advancing the interests of the Pakistani elite - UN etc be damned. With any luck Prophet sahib may soon start talking habeas corpus and pontificating about Rule of Law.

MatloobZaman,

Do you think people like Riaz will stop if suddenly tomorrow poverty and hunger is eliminated in India?
He is so blinded by hatred, he will find something
else to continue what he is doing.

Re: # 355
It's Indian's responsibility to stop bragging and boasting here and there and eradicate their poverty.
No one feels happy to humiliate malnourished humans.

Re: # 341
What else can one expect when "most" of the Indians even the ones abroad making lots of Dirhams, Dinars, Dollars, Riyals and Pounds still live on watered-down daal eventually they will be malnourished, bent up and out of shape.
If you recall the tanks they left behind when fleeing from the front those were found with daal meal of bhagoray faujis.

# 353

I am afraid that advice is like a water on a ducks wings.
Riaz is blinded by the hatred of Hindu Indians, he
will keep parroting these statistics without any
interest in alleviation of that poverty.

Pew# various:

Why do Indians expect Pakistanis to prosecute someone who serves their strategic interests? Pakistan arrested Sayeed under pressure and was never expected to do a serious job of prosecution, as is shown by the following put on by GT on UP (thanks, GT)

.... During Hafiz bhai's hearing yesterday:

""During the proceedings, petitioners’ counsel AK Dogar had claimed the .... members of the JD are GOOD MUSLIMS who follow the example of the holy Prophet (peace be upon him), he said, claiming it was part of a Western conspiracy to defame Islam. ..... Dogar submitted that the victims of the Marriott Hotel blast in Islamabad were BAD MUSLIMS who drank champagne. Defending the government, Deputy Attorney General Naveed Inayat Malik said Dogar’s arguments collapsed under Article 10(3) of the constitution, which contended it was not necessary to show grounds for detention in the case of preventative detention."

So, it is not even a case of the govt. not having any evidence, it said it did not need to produce any. Its all daramagiri by Pakistanis and Gandhigiri by the Indians.


[sorry if my comment is out of place. I am not following this board]

Dear Riaz, Tahmed et al,

Your patriotic utterances sound quite hollow in view of saddening facts that continue to be reported in our newspapers everyday.

Do you know that Jaziya has been imposed on Sikhs in Khyber? What is our government/judiciary going to do about it? Does this happen anywhere else in the world? I may be happy with my close group of students and teachers where merit is the only yardstick but perhaps the rest of the country is different? When faced by scenarios like this, most of us can continue to be in a state of denial and brush aside this whole jaziya business as a minor aberration. But is that not exactly what our friends from across the border do ?

Also, when Police/ ISI offices are attacked/demolished by the Taliban with impunity, and we let off Sayeed, would this not greatly encourage the Taliban? Would they not increase the frequency/ severity of their attacks aimed at destroying the country?

And good friend Riaz would continue to quote statistics on hunger...trying to prove something.

Time to get the perspective right, bros.

#351 Anil, I see you are playing your usual dimwit role of a jamadar by following me around and by repeating questions someone else asked- how many wars that destroyed entire nations have I declared, compared to those swines mentioned in #347?

TNITC masadi

Re: # 349

Masadi:

Who let you out?

Re: # 346 Tahmed

Below is the official proscribed status of Sayeed's organization (Laskhar-e-Toiba):

It was included in the Terrorist Exclusion List by the US Government on December 5, 2001. The US administration designated the Lashkar-e-Toiba as a FTO (Foreign Terrorist Organization) on December 26, 2001. It is also a banned organization in Britain since March 30, 2001.

The group was proscribed by the United Nations in May 2005.

The military regime of Gen. Pervez Musharraf banned the Lashkar-e-Toiba in Pakistan on January 12, 2002.

WHO LET THOSE DOGS OUT ?

Who set free those sobs? Please explain this to me in your usual BS manner....

Thanks.

TNITC masadi

Excuse me while I distract from the BS going on on this thread: Please answer the following question with your collective "peon" wisdom:

Why is George Bush, Dick Cheney, Paul Wolfo-twitz, and the rest of their thuggish gang of mega terrorists running around in Armani suits and SUVs free and making big statements on TV and what not? Who let these dogs out?

TNITC masadi

Re: # 344 Tahmed

The man (Sayeed) is the chief of an international terrorist organization (as declared by the US, UK, EU, UN and, of course, India) and the Pakistani prosecutor could not bring enough evidence to bring him to trial? That, is the point. The circumstantial evidence alone is enough for an indictment, but the prosecutors could not (or, rather, did not) provide the evidence AND they won't hand the man over to India for a trial either.

As regards 'asking India for evidence', I hope that you will agree that if they needed evidence, they would find it right under their noses and need not depend on India for it. Whenever such evidence has been turned over, but there have been longstanding questions on the Pakistan military's interest in successfully pursuing this prosecution. They simply have no interest. Otherwise, why arrest the man repeatedly and release him?

Re: # 343

"Remember, there is overwhelming evidence (including videotapes and eyewitnesses) against the butchers of Muslims in Gujarat, including Modi, but there have been no convictions of any note."

There was enough of evidence against Paki momeens killing Bangldeshi momeens in 1971.

Did any Paki Alumini associatin President take note of that??

There are so many coups in Pakistan and so many time the army raped the constitution. Did any Alumini association member take note of that??

Did any Paki dare to speak and accuse any other Paki Jehadi handlers and madarassa financers like the Paki Alumini Association??

#342 you are merely repeating what dude was saying earlier. and my response is the same as to him - where is the evidence against him? if the indian government has the evidence and has relayed it to the pakistan government and the pakistan govt did not bring it to court - then why is the indian govt not going public with the evidence?

i realize this is setting the bar quite high - actually calling for evidence before convicting a man.

Re: # 334
I think you should read the charges against him to decide how easy or tough it's going to be in an independent court of law to prove...especially if the confession extracted by torture (and without the presence of an attorney) is thrown out.

It'll be just as much a trial of Indian judicial system as that of Kassab.

Remember, there is overwhelming evidence (including videotapes and eyewitnesses) against the butchers of Muslims in Gujarat, including Modi, but there have been no convictions of any note. The victims are still afraid and they continue to languish in refugee camps, while the mass murderers stay in office, and continue to get elected.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 335 Tahmed

The affront is not to the Pakistani judiciary, but to the government prosecutor who could not produce evidence to bring Saeed to trial. The govt. prosecutor is probably a civilian beholden to the powerful military clique and ISI handlers, and dependent upon them to produce evidence. It is well known that the LeT and JuD are ISI creations, and they would not want Saeed put to trial. Ever wonder what happened to the JuD chief who has 'disappeared' from Pakistani custody after JuD was declared to be a 'terrorist organization by the UN'? Where is he?

This 'catch and release' model has been repeated several times in the past. All it does is reinforce lack of seriousness to put these guys to trial and seeking cover from the courts (i.e. 'they let him off').

Here's more to put you Indian chest-beaters to shame:

Over 60 percent of Indian children are wasted, stunted, underweight or a combination of the above. As a result, India ranks number 62 along with Bangladesh at 67 in the PHI (Poverty Hunger Index)ranking out of a total of 81 countries. Both nations are included among the low performing countries in progress towards MDG1 (Millennium Development Goals) with countries such as Nepal (number 58), Ethiopia (number 60), or Zimbabwe (number 74).

Pakistan ranks well ahead of India at 45 and it is included in the medium performing countries. PHI is a new composite indicator – the Poverty and Hunger Index (PHI) – developed to measure countries’ performance towards achieving MDG1 on halving poverty and hunger by 2015. The PHI combines all five official MDG1 indicators, including a) the proportion of population living on less than US$ 1/day, b) poverty gap ratio, c) share of the poorest quintile in national income or consumption, d) prevalence of underweight in children under five years of age, and d) the proportion of population undernourished.

Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 329
I know you don't want to hear the reality of "Shining India". It's being built by taking bread away from the poorest of the poor in India.

Here's the connection between military and poverty (guns vs bread) as pointed out in the UNICEF report:

Unicef was also critical of high military budgets in the region at the cost of social protection. India is modernizing its armed forces and projecting its power more widely than in the past.

“A number of countries in south Asia decide to invest in the military and not to increase investment in their people.� said Daniel Toole, Unicef’s regional director “Budgetary allocations can be more than 10 per cent in the military, while education is only 2 per cent.�
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 306..I agree with your post #303:, I know what you are saying,I was just expressing my views and concerns about these mullahs and so called politicians of religious parties.
http://pukhtunkhwatimes.blogspot.com/

Khyber: I am not contesting that these mullahs are a scourge on Pakistan and (thanks to years of support from military dictators with their past policy of arming them to fight "proxy wars") all humnanity. I am simply calling for the use of the right tools - you dont swat a fly with a sledgehammer, and you dont drive a nail with a flyswatter.

Thus, the right tool against hafiz saeed isnt legal. It is political (backed with military action if needed). That is, if he is running religious schools where he is promoting violence ("jihad-fi-sabilillah") or otherwise passng mullah propaganda in the name of "Islam", then the first step is to pass proper legislation targetted against such against inciting violence (as UK did last year I think). Otherwise, in solving one problem (putting an end to his mischief) we are creating a bigger one (compromised judicial system).

tahmed32....The government has decided to file an appeal against the release order of Hafiz Saeed,these mullahs belong in cage,they are obstacle in development of Pakistan.These mullahs have a long history of their negative mentality and narrow mindedness,they called SIR SYED AHMAED KHAN,KAFFIR'' , cause Sir Syed asked Muslims of India TO LEARN ENGLISH,THEY ALSO LABELED allama iqbal AND OTHER GREAT LEADERS OF Pakistan's FREEDOM AS KAFIR.What Pakistani elite needs to do is educate people,spread education aggressively so we can get rid of mullahs in Pakistan.
http://pukhtunkhwatimes.blogspot.com/

Re: # 312

dude days: "The real drama will play out in the International media and Pakistan and Pakistanis worldwide will be put to shame (as usual)."

What a shame...being unable to prove your case appropriately, you wish the drama to be played out in international media because nothing can be proved in a regular open court of law beyond a reasonable element of doubt...is that how court cases are decided in India?

dude: i tried that second link you provided - doesnt work. And you didnt mention any specific fact to back your statement that the Pakistan government held back evidence implicating mullah saeed to the crime. I was in fact surprised to hear Chidambaram and other senior Indian officials in making such irresponsible statements concerning the freeing of mullah saeed. Pakistanis have worked hard to get an independent judiciary - and the Indian ministers should respect it if they are serious about wanting an end to cross-border terrorism (which is just a symptom of the disease of dictatorship that Pakistanis have fought against).

#311 riaz sahib: I think Kasab the butcher was almost literally caught red-handed - we have all seen his picture, gun in hand. So, regardless of what this scoundrel claims, I think the facts are there.

Conspiracy cases I agree are hard to prove under anglo-saxon law (which is basically the only legal system worth talking about - the "sharia" law is basically bakwas introduced by dictators and their mullah henchmen for their own purposes).

Re: # 320 MatloobZaman: "InshaAllah we will prevail by the will and support of Allah, Allah O Akbar".

I fully agree with you and pray to the God/Allah/Bhagwan etc. that you prevail upon the Talibans and all the terrorists killing the innocent citizens in Pakistan and India.

Re: # 313 Riaz: "It didn't work in 2002. It will not work now".

So what do you propose India should do to tackle such misadventures from Pak citizens/government/state/non-state actors etc.

Re: # 325 Riaz: "PHI index values for India, Pak etc..."

I would be more interested how Pak with an empty bowl to the IMF, can still achieve this while India with double the wheat and rice stock lying in its storage is unable to do it.

http://in.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idINBMB00499820090409

Re: # 300
India has never tried to hide its poverty , on the other hand lifting millions above the povert line has been a challenge for successive governments. Recent statistics show that India has done a commendable job in this area.

On the other hand you would have us believe that there is no poverty in Pakistan and it is a land of milk and honey.

The UNICEF report is just an eyeopener for presumptuous people like yourself.

Of course, you may continue to delude yourself.

Re: # 327 harish_hyd: "Riaz Mian ....Are you so ashamed of your military that you have to divert the topic?"

Perfectly said...this man is always jumping topics to suit himself, without regard / relevance to the topic in discussion.

Regardless where you start and what topic you start, he would always end with Pak having better indicators and India having negative indicators. Once he reaches there no further responses on that thread. If you still persist and grill/corner him any further, he would again go back to the first statement (i.e. change topic) and start all over again.

Keep playing this circular, catching game with him and enjoy....

(Laddus of the world will call upon India to "do a Gaza" or "do a Lebanon" in Pakistan. It's called Israel envy that I have described in my ilog.)

Hmm...Just because you coined a term "Israel Envy" it doesnt make it a reality. Probably Israel is also having a "India envy" syndrome...whereby we have been able to inflict and pay you back in same coin thru our numerous consulates in Afghanistan. And Mashallah..they performed so well..."No evidence", " No proof", "No international Sympathies" for you...and situation turned on its head within 3 years. To top it all...we did not fire a single missile, single mortar, single bullet and did not even need to invade you. Its all happening in auto mode...and see insurgency in kashmir is down to pre-1989 levels. Probably Israel wants to emulate this model but cannot.

Besides Riaz mian, I talk about the militaries of the two countries and you talk about poverty and starvation. What gives? Are you so ashamed of your military that you have to divert the topic?

#325 by RiazHaq

Blah! Blah! Blah! Riaz mian, your numbers have been discredited here so many times by so many people, that if I were you, I would simply put my tail between my legs and slink away. But you shamelessly continue to regurgitate the same old propaganda that Pakistan is better than India. You know, a couple of months ago, your country had enough money to cover just two weeks of imports. Besides, despite America pouring in billions of dollars every year, your country is constantly out with a begging bowl urging donors to be "generous". If this is what you call "being ahead of and better than India", be my guest. But you fool no one, not even your own compatriots, and instead embarrass them.

Re: # 323

Instead of saber rattling with Pakistan, please take care of your starving children first.

India ranks number 62 along with Bangladesh at 67 in the PHI (Poverty Hunger Index)ranking out of a total of 81 countries. Both nations are included among the low performing countries in progress towards MDG1 with countries such as Nepal (number 58), Ethiopia (number 60), or Zimbabwe (number 74).

Pakistan ranks well ahead of India at 45 and it is included in the medium performing countries. PHI is a new composite indicator – the Poverty and Hunger Index (PHI) – developed to measure countries’ performance towards achieving MDG1 on halving poverty and hunger by 2015. The PHI combines all five official MDG1 indicators, including a) the proportion of population living on less than US$ 1/day, b) poverty gap ratio, c) share of the poorest quintile in national income or consumption, d) prevalence of underweight in children under five years of age, and d) the proportion of population undernourished.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

O young-turk Pakistanis

of every stripe & spot

its nice to see you laser

here, every qashqua & dot

Do not foment illusions

that ``we two are alike``

by those happy to tell you

``you all can take a hike``

Her Post-Partum depression

is Mother India's curse

and add to that her PMS

How can she feed & nurse?

She's now poor and widowed

gets all hindu benefits

the param-pra treats her

As wandering cow that shits

her slumdog children get her

the prestige she deserves

her burning-brides light the

flame of fortune she preserves

#319 by MatloobZaman

....what has India produced their weapons for? to place in some dewal and worship?
There were enough monkeys, cows, donkeys and snakes to worship, why did India introduce another devta nuke?

Matloob bhai, these weapons are meant to bust Paki a$$es, like the Bofors guns did during the Kargil war, when most of your jawans reached Jannat without even knowing what hit them, and the rest starved to death, insufficient rations forcing them to eat grass to quench their hunger. OTOH all those shiny F-16s did the vanishing act when Pakistan required it most, to provide support to its helpless men caught between the weather, Indian troops, missiles, and hunger.

Re: # 320

"InshaAllah we will prevail by the will and support of Allah, Allah O Akbar. "

Your supremacist chant would not be able to get over your evil karmas.

You are going to suffer because of your own evil and vilolent deeds- even your Mohammad would be suffering his deeds reserved for him.

#313 by RiazHaq

But what you are proposing is the failed strategy of "coercive diplomacy" again. It didn't work in 2002. It will not work now.

Really? It was Indian diplomacy that forced Pakistan to admit that its nationals were involved in the Mumbai attack. It was diplomacy again that forced Pakistan to arrest (however shambolic and superficial it was) the masterminds Zarrar Shah (sp?) and some others for the same. Pakistan thinks now that the heat has died down, it can set these fellows free, but don't worry, the country's reputation has already gone a notch down both internationally (by realizing what India has been trying to hammer into their heads for almost 2 decades now) and domestically (by bowing down to Indian pressure, the worst crime a Paki govt can ever commit).

InshaAllah we will prevail by the will and support of Allah, Allah O Akbar.

Re: # 318
And so these will be used when the time comes, what has India produced their weapons for? to place in some dewal and worship?
There were enough monkeys, cows, donkeys and snakes to worship, why did India introduce another devta nuke?

Maulana Riaz ul Haq saheb,

Islami nukes were the result of cult of hate and revenge that your ilks follow.

Islami nukes are aimed at India to avenge 1971 defeat.

Your current Jehad is to avenge 1971.

This time we are going to finish off your pan Islamist forces for sure again!!

Re: # 315
A media trial is not going to work. Judges do not look favorably upon trials conducted through media.

Your best bet is to prove the conspiracy charge against Kasab beyond a reasonable doubt in your own courts in a public trial. Any evidence that comes out of such a trial and conviction can probably be used in a Pakistani court to try any co-conspirators on the Pakistani side.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 313

It will work very well. As soon as the Taliban get free space in Swat to behead more heads - some people will notice.

Re: # 313

It hasn't backfired at all. In last 6 years - the entire world perception about Pakistan has undergone a big downward spiral - and this decision will further help it take down the drain.

It will be your turn to squirm (as usual).

Re: # 312
Laddus of the world will call upon India to "do a Gaza" or "do a Lebanon" in Pakistan. It's called Israel envy that I have described in my ilog.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 312
You can squirm as much as you want. But what you are proposing is the failed strategy of "coercive diplomacy" again. It didn't work in 2002. It will not work now.
In fact, it will backfire badly.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 311

Riaz - The real drama will play out in the International media and Pakistan and Pakistanis worldwide will be put to shame (as usual).

I for one will fully support the diplomatic offensive and putting more troops on the border to put pressure.

And I am a liberal - you haven't yet seen what laddus of the world will want the govt. to do. I am sure laddu will want us to cut off your water.

Re: # 306
The real drama is likely to play out in the Mumbai courtroom, where Kasab has already retracted his confession, which he says was extracted by torture.

This is a conspiracy case and, if the normal Anglo-Saxon jurisprudence (due process) rules of evidence apply, it will be very hard to prove. Any evidence presented there will likely also have a bearing in cases againt LeT pending in Pakistani courts.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 309

http://ramanstrategicanalysis.blogspot.com/2009/06/fresh-oxygen-to-let.ht ml

dude: The link doesnt work - but since you have read it, what evidence is there linking Hafiz Saeed to the mumbai attack that you say the Pakistan government is not presenting?

Re: # 306

Tahmed - I think you missed the point. Hafeez was released by the Pak court not because they are independent.

Hafiz was released because the govt instructed its laweyrs to intentionally make a very weak case. And govt. here means ISI/Pak Army. Its just too obvious.

Here's the details behind the release:

http://ramanstrategicanalysis.blogspot.com/2009/06/fresh-oxygen-to-l et.html

Re: # 306

Re: LeT chief

India should increase forces on the border with Pakistan. This would definitely put immense pressure on the Pak Army - more so because the very same forces are fighting the Taliban.

That's pretty much the only lever India has with it - especially after the US (foolishly) gave more money to pak as part of the Kerry-Lugar bill.

KHYBER #303: It seems that there was no evidence linking these individuals to the mumbai attacks. I think it is good that the court then did its part by ordering their release - a proper justice system is what separates a civilized nation from these mullah bastards.

There remains the political problem of these mullah rats running lose on the sacred soil of Pakistan - but I think we can be confident that as long as we have democracy and the rule of law, they will remain a fringe element. In any case, political problems should be dealt with politically, not by compromising the nation's judicial system.

KHYBER #303: It seems that there was no evidence linking these individuals to the mumbai attacks. I think it is good that the court then did its part by ordering their release - a proper justice system is what separates a civilized nation from these mullah bastards.

There remains the political problem of these mullah rats running lose on the sacred soil of Pakistan - but I think we can be confident that as long as we have democracy and the rule of law, they will remain a fringe element. In any case, political problems should be dealt with politically, not by compromising the nation's judicial system.

Re: # 302

Read my ilog I just published. Look at the sources I have cited there.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Its really makes no sense that A three-member Full Bench of the Lahore High Court (LHC) on Tuesday ordered the release of Jamaatud Dawa chief Hafiz Saeed and Col (r) Nazir Ahmad,I think its waste of time if they are figitng aginst these thugs in Swat and supreme court is keep releasing thses terrorists and thugs like of lal masjid burqa mullah and now this thug hafiz, its just another victory for the radicals and terrorists . I think Pakistani courts are more afraid of the terrorists than they are of the legitimate government and the military. It's that simple,thats why they love to release these thugs.Terrorist Sayeed should never have been released, obviously. Clerics like Sayeed are the entire problem within Islam and Pakistan today. His release is another victory for the terrorists and a defeat for the civilized people of the world .
http://pukhtunkhwatimes.blogspot.com/

Re: # 300 Riaz

But, but, but....

The point of the BBC report is that Pakistan is doing worse!

Here's more from Financial Times:

UNICEF ATTACKS INDIA's RECORD ON POVERTY:

India has failed to use a period of high economic growth to lift tens of millions of people out of poverty, falling far short of China’s record in protecting its population from the ravages of chronic hunger, United Nations officials said on Tuesday.

Unicef, the UN’s child development agency, said India, Asia’s third largest economy, had not followed the example of other regional economies such as China, South Korea and Singapore in investing in its people during an economic boom. It said this failure spelled trouble as the global economy deteriorated, while volatile fuel and food prices had already deepened deprivation over the past two years.

The stinging criticism of India’s performance comes only two weeks after the Congress party-led alliance was overwhelmingly voted back into office. Its leaders had campaigned strongly on their achievement of raising India’s economic growth to 9 per cent and boosting rural welfare.

An unfavourable comparison with Beijing’s development record will rile New Delhi. Manmohan Singh, India’s prime minister, has argued that the country’s economic development is more durable than that of China because it is forged in a democracy rather than by a one-party state.

In a report on the impact of the global financial crisis on women and children in south Asia, Unicef said that food and fuel price shocks had increased the number of people suffering chronic hunger by 100m to more than 400m people. Of these, 230m are in India, where 76 per cent of the country’s 1.2bn people live on less than $2 a day. Among many households, as much as 80 per cent of income is spent on food, making them highly sensitive to rice and wheat price fluctuations.

Aniruddha Bonnerjee, an economic and social policy consultant for Unicef, said there had been “stagnation� in the fight against malnutrition and that stubbornly high food prices posed a growing threat to poor families. He warned that with India’s growth rates now almost half what they were two years ago, New Delhi would find it more difficult to boost spending on health, education and food to nurture its human capital.

“If there was no progress against malnutrition and hunger when growth was higher, how are you going to do it now?� he asked.

Mr Bonnerjee said some Asian countries had managed to halve poverty over five years during times of high economic growth; India was falling far short of that achievement. Mr Singh’s championing of “inclusive growth� was electioneering and had left large swathes of the population untouched, he said.

Unicef was also critical of high military budgets in the region at the cost of social protection. India is modernising its armed forces and projecting its power more widely than in the past.

“A number of countries in south Asia decide to invest in the military and not to increase investment in their people.� said Daniel Toole, Unicef’s regional director “Budgetary allocations can be more than 10 per cent in the military, while education is only 2 per cent.�

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/48108cf4-4f8d-11de-a692-00144feabdc0.html
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 276

As usual, you've left out anything in the UNICEF report that makes India look worse. Here it is:

The number of chronically hungry people in the region rose by at least 100 million in the past two years, from 300 million to 405 million, Unicef said—the highest increase in the incidence of hunger in 40 years.
The number of hungry in India increased from 209.5 million in 2004-06 to 230 million by end of 2007-08. Unicef defines the hungry as people who consume less than a minimum recommended calorie intake. In South Asia, this is around 2,100 kilocalories per day per person on average.

http://www.livemint.com/2009/06/02221259/More-Indians-battling-h unger-d.html?h=B
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Masadi saab

When was the last time you behave like a gentleman saab?Just curious saab.

One additional point I want to make regarding the BS.4 by pew and this point is missed by most 'big shot' commentators- I am talking about 'big shot' not rat pee sloganeers like tahmed:

BS4. Did Yasser Arafat reject the offer made to him by Ehud Barak with Clinton's endorsement?

The offer made was of creating a non viable bantustan- crisscrossed and broken up into pieces by Israel and its checkpoints and those that Israel had displaced in its apartheid regime, it offered no solution for their resettlement. The purpose behind the Clinton plan and all two state solutions sponsored by the US is to maintain the occupation of the palestinians while taking away the resistance. If you create a non-viable state it means you create a dependency- which means you maintain a state of occupation like neo-colonization. Why they want to do that is because Isreal serves the function of US control over the entire ME area. Any two state solution that takes away Isreal's nuisance value while creating a viable Palestine is therefore opposed by the US. They are seeking a palestinian leadership that will sellout to the West, legitimize dependence/occupation on Isreal while having a symbolic 'independence' which signifies at best a name, some geographic map, and a flag- while in reality is little different to the occupation.

In #295, UN was revising its decision

Re: # 289

Yep - And Obama is living in cuckoo land thinking he will be the knight in shining armour to get the world rid of nuclear weapons - with his Prague (was it Prague or somewhere else?) speech and other crap.

I have slowly slowly started believing that Obama is all "fluff" and no substance.

#293 tahmed, how is it that everytime you are totally and thoroughly stumped you jump up and down like a monkey with your 'victory speech' and then run away with your tail between your legs? Only a damn fool would create a palestinian state on the West Bank, that would mean de facto that you recognize Israeli occupation of your lands and give up any claim on them. It is like someone taking over your entire house by force and then you "accepting" to relocate to the servants quarters while the occupiers live in the main house- no court in the world will uphold your claim to the house if you accept those terms.

Pew you need an education, your questions are BS

BS1. Did the Arabs reject the 1948 UN Partition Plan and did the Israelis accept it?

The Arabs rejected it because given population and land ownership figures, the divison was unfair. The UN did not enforce its division, Israel unilaterally declared its independence without any UN approval- which prompted the attack


BS2. Did the Arabs then attack Israel (6 countries simultaneously, I believe) and then lose?

Israel had numerical superiority in the battlefield. The war was started by Israel when it unilaterally declared independence and ownership of Arab lands without any international mandate. The Arabs were made to lose because the imperialists were helping a numerically superior Israeli force.


BS3. Did the UN Partition Plan give them a larger state than what they are asking for now (Gaza+West Bank)?

Yes but it was unfair and the UN was revision its decision when Israel decided to forcefully take the land and took over much more than what the UN had originally proposed

BS4. Did Yasser Arafat reject the offer made to him by Ehud Barak with Clinton's endorsement?

The offer made was of creating a non viable bantustant- crisscrossed and broken up into pieces by Israel and its checkpoints and those that Isreal had displaced in its apartheid regime, it offered no solution for their resettlement.

---
This CIAO by Pew reminds me of another dimwit poster here named Feroz from Lahore- did he change his name to pew?

Re: # 292

Pew Yaar kya Palestine-Palestime laga rakha hai....we have enough of our own problems to deal with than to get into Israeli-Palestine issue.

Tell me this - what do you think India should do now that Let/JuD chief has been let loose by Pakistan.

OK. enough time wasted with you masadi. i dont have all day to keep sending you back for another try and providing a sane response to the facts i pointed to in #278 which point to the absurdity and hypocrisy of the "palestinian cause" and the pakistani "intellectuals" (not to mention the arab-worshippers) like you who harp on it.

Re: # 290 Masadi

Can you answer my questions posed in #235? Riaz the Great did not.

#290 " You create a palestinian state on a fraction of what even the unjust UN settlement mandated then you take away the reason for pursuing the justice desired by the Palestinians for their homeland and not only that,"

this does not answer the question i had for you in #290. this merely re-states what you said earlier in response to which i asked you that question in #290.

Tahmed in case you are not reading challenged, which I highly doubt, your "new" question is answered in my "old" post. You create a palestinian state on a fraction of what even the unjust UN settlement mandated then you take away the reason for pursuing the justice desired by the Palestinians for their homeland and not only that, as Isreali shenanigans in the region show, it would have quickly occupied that region using one or another excuse....Don't hide behind your mama's skirt by claiming I have a "foul mouth" when you have a dirty brain and your mouth ain't much cleaner either...

Don't F with your intellectual superiors, and hiding behind your mama's skirt by red-flagging my posts to get me banned merely reveals the stink that emanates from your brain that you try to mask with all kinds of slogans that your white masters have perfected.

TNITC masadi

dude #270 true. all God's chillun got the bomb. and no one wants to let go.

post I reference in #287 below should be #268, not #278.

#286 masadi: "The moron tahmed wanted Jordan to create a Palestinian state on the West Bank and as a result declare de facto that the Palestinian claim on historical Palestine was BS"

How would a palestinian state have negated palestinian claims to what became isreal, you genius? If this is the best response you can give to just one of the many examples I gave in #278 of the hypocrisy and absurdity behind the "palestine cause" - then it means you tried but failed to respond.

At least you were better than Dr. Riaz - who simply ignores whatever he cant explain. otoh, you have a foul mouth and Dr. Riaz is a self-respecting man.

The moron tahmed wanted Jordan to create a Palestinian state on the West Bank and as a result declare de facto that the Palestinian claim on historical Palestine was BS, the UN mandate was BS and that Isreal could have a free hand and what they had occupied before, and not only that it would ensure a rolling in of Isreali tanks as they fulfilled their wet dream of Yretz Isreal as they are slowly doing these days through settlement building and the starving of Palestinians- they have created one of the worst poverty situation in that area as exists anywhere in the world...So there you have it folks, not only is tahmed happy with and recommended the US barbaric invasion of Iraq in 2003, and the displacement of Pakistanis from Swat in 2009, he has been supporting the barbaric Israeli occupation of Palestine and pushing the US official line on every armed incursion by US/Isreal. Here you have a unique speciment of immorality, the human devil incarnate, for a few $$ he has sold humanity....If you need any further proof just read his posts. Not a single Indian on this site, even the Laddu gujjus have such low morality as this miserable sorry excuse for a human being, at best their hatred extends to Pakistan, this person hates humanity except for the very few whose system he supports.

TNITC masadi

tahmed once again dont F with your intellectual superiors.

TNITC masadi

#268 tahmed writes "when the only investment Egypt has made on Gaza is in making sure their palestinians brothers (for whom they shed enough tears on to make the desert bloom) in Gaza cannot cross over into Egypt??"

You are not confused tahmed, you know exactly what is going on but you try to obfuscate your immoral, sellout, spineless stance by this kind of coverup. Egypt and Isreal entered into a US brokered peace deal where Egypt receives billions in bribe money every year to ensure that it does in that regions what is to Isreal's benefit. So how come the Egyptian corridor becomes important to you but the blockade of Gaza, the starving of Gaza by Israel/US is of no consequence? How come the occupier (Isreal) receives no blame for you but the surrounding Arab countries get all the blame? And you moron, you wanted Jordan to give independence to the West Bank and thereby not only ensure that Israeli tanks rolled in prematurely but also give up the claim on Israeli occupation of Palestine and the UN mandated agreement. Things don't work in this BS fashion and don't throw in Zia ul Fcuq just to confuse people. You are a total dimwit.

TNITC masadi

Mr. Masadi: In other words, you cannot explain how the facts point to anything other than the absurdity and hypocrisy involved in the "palestinian cause" that so many arab-worshippers in Pakistan love to harp about.

as I have said to many peons of the West here, dont F with your intellectual superiors- tahmed take note....

tahmed writes "I used to have a palestinian colleague who used to say a lot of what I wrote. "

Reminds me of the white bigots claiming that they are not racist because their "best friend" is black!

TNITC masadi

Mr. tahmed, as usual your intellectual spinelessness shows up in your posts. You use ad hominem against me "Hitlermobile", and also against the Palestinians most of whom have nothing to do with the Saudi "royal" thugs being supported by the US, and other tinpots that your British friends created and your American friends are maintaining...don't try to overlook that primal fact in their existence- US/Western support....

TNITC masadi

as for the palestinians, Herr Masadi, I used to have a palestinian colleague who used to say a lot of what I wrote. Including the stuff about Israel and the "palestinian cause" being used as a convenient tool by arab thugs - sorry I mean royal highnesses, pious oil-rich sheikhs, rogue generals and their royal princes - to stay in power.

But..Dr Riaz having failed to unconfuse me, perhaps you could enlighten me on how to reconcile the things that confuse me about the palestinian issue (per #268 below). Many thanks in advance.

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Alumni WW you need to realize that tahmed's line on 'personal responsibility' is the same as the US/Israeli line on their barbaric occupation of Palestine (as is tahmed's line on almost everything else). I would like for tahmed to explain to us how personal responsibility can be exercised in a coersively controlled land, where its 'responsible' people are humiliated every day, life is made miserable through crisscrossed check points, their home are fair game for searches and random violation and razing to the ground (while illegal settlements are expanded without any legal sanction or justification). In these circumstances, personal responsibility would translate into doing sujood to the Israelis day and night and opening up your homes and family for periodic violation. In other words those practicing 'personal responsibility' under these circumstances would be humanly speaking the most irresponsible people in the world.

TNITC is back!!

Cheema I read your comments on my gallery. You over exaggerate your own 'hard work'. It was not hard slog that got you where you are but privilege and luck, unless you can prove to me that the tens of millions of mazdoor kisaans and women in Africa who "slog" day and night just to get water or some miserable food on their table are on a similar track of "success" that you achieved. Get a goddamned education.

Re: # 275 Muqaddam

"It names the worst affected areas as Nepal, Bangladesh and Pakistan"

You must be kidding me! Have you checked every other report that the Great Riaz Pak Alumi Whatever has researched? Have you read this report or that report? How come India is not the worst affected, but holy of holies Pakistan is?

Did you get your facts right? Your statistics right?

The latest BBC news item about hunger in South Asia:
------------------------------------------------------
A UN report says hunger in South Asia has reached its highest level in 40 years because of food and fuel price rises and the global economic downturn.

The report by the UN children's fund, Unicef, says that 100 million more people in the region are going hungry compared with two years ago.

It names the worst affected areas as Nepal, Bangladesh and Pakistan
----------------------------------------------------------
Please check out BBC South Asia News for 02 June 2009

Re: # 272 Riaz to Tahmed

Sahib:

I think that we are all pointing out the fact that there is a lot of blame to go around and the Palestinians/Arabs deserve their fair share of it (which is substantial). I wish you would take the blinkers off your eyes and see that personal irresponsibility begets misery.

You are beating a dead horse. Your tears for Palestinians do not move us.

Re: # 214

bubba said - [[[dude,

pakis are confused, and you will never get an honest answer.

what are they first?

[Are you Pakistanis first or Muslims/Sunnis first?]

They are idiots first. Then as rf bhai suggested they have to transform into human beings, and only then can they graduate in becoming a muslim.

Except of course, whatever Hamid mian suggests.]]]

Bubba - I think you were correct after all. Hafiz Saeed - head of Let and JuD was freed today.

As long as he and others like him are free, Pakistan will remain a terror state. Until Pakistan shows it is serious about taking down the leadership of the Taliban, Lashkar-e-Taiba, Jaish-e-Mohammed, these groups will regenerate and prosper. And law enforcement in Pakistan will shy away from taking them on.

Tahmed Mian - My sympathies with you. But your dream of a Taliban free Pakistan will remain a dream after all, unfortunately.

Re: # 268
tahmed: Now I have absolutely no doubt about your massive state of confusion. What is worse is that you can not see human beings as just human beings who deserve basic human rights, regardless of their national origin or religion. The fact that many of the Arab rulers have been corrupt and abusive of their own people should not change that fact.

Don't forget how this discussion started: with your neighbor's Israel envy to do to your fellow Pakistanis what Israel has been doing to its neighbors. Would you like your family and friends to be in the same shoes as Palestinians? Would you then defend India's crimes like you are defending the Israeli crimes?

You can not justify the inhumanity of the Israelis toward the Palestinians and the Lebanese by citing the bad behavior of the Arabs you keep talking about. It makes absolutely no sense to offer this kind of defense for the heinous war crimes committed by the Israelis with support from their American patrons, whom you admire.

I wish you'd stop and think about your misguided commentary on this matter, without confusing yourself with all the other irrelevant stuff you keep bringing into the discussion.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 268 Tahmed to Riaz

You make so much sense that I am now becoming unconfused. There is something to be said about personal responsibility. The world respects those who exhibit it. The Palestinians get only words because they have not lost an opportunity to lose an opportunity. The world gets that too.

Re: # 269

Tahmed - Indians are not getting disarmed until you disarm the Chinese. Chinese are not getting disarmed until you disarm the Russians and the Americans.

And Americans are not getting disarmed until I become the Miss World - so the probability is pretty much ZERO :-)

..maybe i should unconfuse myself by checking with Prof. Hoodbhoy. after all, he knows all the answers, including how the best way to protect Pakistan is to disarm ourselves and the peace-loving indians will then simply be shamed into disarming as well.

Riaz sahib: So you think I am confused? Let me try to unconfuse myself them by taking an idea that came to me from that other thread on cars: maybe you should help the palestinian economy by buying Made in Palestine cars. What? They dont make any?? What have they been doing the past 60 years?? Even we Pakis had this figured out during this time. Surely the couldnt have spent all this time playing the Victim Card. and what about the rest of the Arabs? Surely they must have invested some of their hard-earned petrodollars in Gaza?? They did nothing all these 60 years when and to this day - when the only investment Egypt has made on Gaza is in making sure their palestinians brothers (for whom they shed enough tears on to make the desert bloom) in Gaza cannot cross over into Egypt?? Damn!! Now I am even more confused.

What about the west bank - the Israelis wont let them you say?? But..but..what about the 20 years that their arab brothers had control of the west bank?? surely they must have given them a palestinian state, made sure an entire generation received proper education so they could move on from pining over their orange groves and make a life for themselves!! no? there arab brothers in jordan instead sent the Sword of Islam, General Zia, after them with tanks on the day the palestinians call Black September??..but the brave palestinians then took revenge on General Zia for Black September...by killing Israeli athletes at the olympics?? hmmmm..That makes me even more confused.

eid mubarak ..........

we pakis should be thankful that we have the bum, otherwise these hindustani bums would be all over us like flies on jhalebi ......... as it is they are being a pain in the bum .....

Re: # 265

And also go and put JuD chief back in jail....that's where he belongs.

Re: # 264

Riaz, here are two tears for your sob story:

drop...drop...

Happy? Now go raise funds to settle the 2.5M displaced Swatis (what was the number of Palestinian refugees? 600K? Partition refugees: 15M+?) Don't you love statistics?

CIAO

Re: # 263
Pepe,
You and some of your Indian friends (and a misguided Pakistani) continue to demonstrate your total ignorance of the reality of the Palestinian occupation by Israelis. It's clear that you have not studied the roots and history of the issues and you have never been anywhere even close to the area. You have no appreciation of the continuing atrocities against an entire nation by Israel supported by the United States.

Even Israeli historians are now questioning their own version of history by admitting that Palestinians were driven out by Zionist-inspired violence. They did not leave of their own free will. That a large foreign, European population was imposed on them during the British mandate after Balfour declaration. The Israeli historians now acknowledge that the Nakbah is real, not just figment of Palestinian imagination.

If you really want to talk about Israel-Palestine problems rationally and intelligently rather than the bigoted fashion that has become your hallmark, you need some education first. But I think it's a really tall order to expect that from you.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 242 Riaz

Actually, Israel has never a cut a country into two. Liberation of Bangladesh remains the largest population released from captivity since WWII

Re: # 253 Amen

UN is the problem, not the solution. Every dispute that it has been involved in has festered, not resolved (Palestine, Korea, Darfur, Kashmir, etc.). Bigger problems where it did not intervene have been resolved (India Partition, Bangladesh, Cambodia, Vietnam, etc.)

Re: # 218

How is the BJP's becoming a fringe party have anything to do with what he has said. Oh you mean that the Muslim league is secular despite having Muslim in its name and the BJP non secular despite having Bhartiya in its name and not Hindu.

Is this another example of paki logic.

Or the fact that you officially discriminate against non-muslims as per your constitution and then try and compare yourself with India and try and accuse us of trying to discriminate against muslims (BTW I look forward to the day when musalais and isai in India are treated as no class citizens) but till then they are not you have no right to accuse India of becoming the India of my Dreams.

The above as yet.

Sanatani

Re: # 209

Vaise Tahmadiya,

This clown has no honest answer to anything. True son of a mohajir and if u do not like my using the m epithet then too bad. Vaise his whining reminds me of his cousins left on this side of the border.

Sanatani

In 1975 the Israelis approached India for logistic assistance for bombing Paksiani nuclear facility. If the then Prime Minister Moraraji had balls and had agreed, there would have been no anniversaries today.

I dont understand in last 11 years why we are spenting money on wasteless thing like making nuclear weapons
Its much better to work in civilaian nuclear technology so atleast we can get electricity

Re: # 200

Riaz Haq,

if the palestinians agreed to live as Dhimmis then there would be no problem.

Sanatani

Few years back i had an argument with a paki muslim who was arguing that taleban were good people - without them there would be no law and order in afghanistan and it is better to live under taleban than under chaos. And it was a very common view among pakis those days when taleban was in power in Afghanistan. Cant the same argument be made today?
Pakistan is chaotic with no law and order in 40% of the country - Cant taleban give good governance and swift justice making people law abiding? As far as india is concerned there needs to be a strong govt in pakistan that would be ruthless against anit indian non state actors, who are building their own mini empires and project one face that India can negotiate with. And Taleban fits that role. Even if they have bad intentions towards India, India can deal with open enmies. The current situation is Pakistan always denies any wrong doing and India can not do anything about it. I wouldnt wish taleban on anyone though - The ideal situation would have been Pakis denouncing the Jihadis killing innocent people across the border, bring them to book and have a strong govt that holds up the law across the land. Then India wouldnt have to worry about infiltration into kashmir or by boats in to mainland and can use those resources to take care of its poor. The current paki liberal position is that even if taleban is defeated they are not making any promises of taking care of all such non state actors. So it is in the best interest of India if taleban wins. They will take care of any non state actor swiftly as they would pose a threat to themselves.

Yes, how about Tibetans? How come I do not
see any Pakistani protests against Chinese
for occupying Tibet?
Is it because Tibetans are not Muslims?
If they were, what would Pakistanis do?

And how come no Pakistani protests Turks
for suppressing Kurds and not granting
them homeland and freedom?

Why are Palestine more deserving than
Tibetans and Kurds?

Impressive!!

#251 Our troops who were murdered by these animals didnt create the jehadists. it is the generals like Hamid Gul and Javed Nasir and Zia and Aslam Beg and above all Musharraf who are responsible - and they are not the ones who are being murdered. So lets spare some tears for these Pakistanis who died protecting us - not ignore them and give their killers a pass because we dont want to see these precious arabs tainted with any wrongdoing as I wrote to Riaz sahib below.

And the eviction of Palestine 60 years ago is an "atrocity" that pales in magnitude before far bigger atrocities committed since then. Are the Palestinians more deserving of our tears than, say, the half million Cambodians killed by the khmer rouge, or the million dead in the War of the Incompetents (Iran-Iraq)?? Havent we discussed Palestinians enough?? If we are to discuss atrocities, why dont we focus on here and now - Pakistan 2009 - when we can actually do something about it??

Islam in India could have fared better without Arab influence. The peers and sufis served without discrimination. Hindus and Muslims still love and respect Nizamuddin and Moinuddin Chishti. From 16th. century onwards, Islam in India was influenced by the Arabs of what later became Saudi Arabia. Hindu-bashing and shia-hating started. Muslims became estranged. Afghan war brought the wahabi/saudis to Pakistan and with the complicity of the army and clergy, they became strong enough to behead Pakistanis.

Re: # 250

tahmed...you contend that we must not say that atrocities are being committed against the Palestinians because they don't have a favorable disposition towards Pakistanis and that Arabs are slitting Pakistanis throats? I'm telling you that two wrongs do not make a right...what I'm saying is that the wrongs being done to the Arabs or Palestinians are as condemnable as the wrongs being done to Pakistanis...as for the throat slitting thugs...well these are demons and they ought to be exterminated as they are being done...however the army/govt must own up to reaping the harvest of seeds that they sowed in the past because the demons have come home to roost, so to speak, and need to be extirpated now.

Goldfinger: i am not sure how your comment relates to what i wrote. What wrong did the Pakistanis do to these arab animals and their local lackeys who slit their throats and then displayed the heads in close-up to mock the family members??

Riaz: dont keep repeating the same manter about my ranting against arabs. Re-read what I wrote in #243 and point out anything that I have said that is wrong. And then tell me if you have written even one post pointing towards the arab ghoondas responsible for butchering Pakistanis. To point to arab ghoondas is not to rant against these divine Arabs fo your.

You are trying to scare those who dissent by flauting your position in an international associatin??

So typical of a megalomaniac Pakistani power broker!!

Re: # 245

Riaz-ul-Haq, you need to stop using the name of Pakistan while voicing your own opinion.

Who gave you the right to speak like an Arbi-Charbi on behalf of the Pakistanis??

Re: # 243

tahmed,

As I said...two wrongs do not make a right...all that is as wrong as all of this and they are still wrongs...if you get what I mean to say?

Re: # 243
tahmed, I think your rants against Arabs and Palestinians are become more and more shrill and incomprehensible. Please stop confusing all Arabs and Palestinians with al Qaeda. It makes absolutely no sense. Take a deep breath, and think about how wrong headed your criticism of Palestinians is.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 234

AlephNul,

so in other words you wish to say that Israel is helping you to pee further than say, Pakistan? Would it not be better if all this useless expenditure of money be put to better use, like say, towards helping the downtrodden of the slums of India, as portrayed in Slumdog Millionaire as well, where more than 90% of your folks languish, rather than to waste it on a military that would not know what to do with it when the time comes?

#239 Goldfinger: history being a story of man's inhumanity to man, everyone can point to atrocities committed against his people. In Pakistan "our people" are the Pakistanis who have been slaughtered by invaders. And these invaders are not americans as every Pakistani seems to think, but arab ghoondas and their local lackeys. Why is this rat Zawahiri never mentioned even once in any Pakistani TV discussion I have heard, e.g., even though he declared war on Pakistan just a few months ago?

And if there is ever a palestinian state, rest assured they will treat Pakistani workers no differently than they are treated elsewhere - as cheap labor competing with other sources of cheap labor from india, bangladesh, philipines. not "muslim brothers" as too many pakistanis fondly consider themselves to be.

So, if we are to spill tears for atrocities - let us spare them for 4 Pakistanis commandos who whose throats were slit by these animals. Let us spare them for the girl whose screams of agony as a crowd of men looked on like sheep will echo through history as a slap on the face of every Pakistani. Let us spare those tears for the millions of people who have been made to suffer as IDBs by these animals.

Re: # 235
I am not surprised by your advocacy of the Israeli occupiers, aggressors and human rights abusers.

After all, you and many of your fellow countrymen suffer from Israel envy, wishing you could do the same to your neighbors. But your wishes shall remain unfulfilled.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 234
You already know my opinion about DRDO. The less said the better. You should just hope your military can figure out how to use and maintain the stuff. That, in itself, will be quite a challenge.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 234
You already know my opinion about DRDO. The less said the better. You should just hope your military can figure out how to use and maintain the stuff. That, in itself, will be quite a challenge.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 237

tahmed,

as for that...well I would agree with you...however we could not deny that there are no atrocities committed against the Palestinians

Re: # 232

laddu,

don't stew too hot...Mr. Riaz is right...the Israelis were really angry at their wards (Indian commandos) for making a total mishmash of the rescue ops in Mumbai...they actually slaughtered more hostages than the hostage-takers

#236 Goldfinger: Every people are a lovable people. That is not the point I am making. What I am writing about is this unrequited, blind love for which Pakistanis would cut their mother's heart out as per the urdu movie I mentioned seeing when I was a kid.

Re: # 220

tahmed...well, as they say two wrongs do not make a right...while partly you might be correct maybe the Palestinians are an unlovable lot and all else...however a wrong is still a wrong...Palestinians are a dispossessed people and Israel is committing atrocities against them and certainly sort of an apartheid exists there...how can you deny that?

Re: # 200 Riaz;

Q. Did the Arabs reject the 1948 UN Partition Plan and did the Israelis accept it?

Q. Did the Arabs then attack Israel (6 countries simultaneously, I believe) and then lose?

Q. Did the UN Partition Plan give them a larger state than what they are asking for now (Gaza+West Bank)?

Q. Did Yasser Arafat reject the offer made to him by Ehud Barak with Clinton's endorsement?

Ciao.

RiazHaq (PAW) #231

{{I do know about the burgeoning India-Israel axis}}

Mr Haq, you will be glad to know that the conduit between India and Israel is bi-directional.

The IAF has just inducted the first of three Phalcon AWACS aircraft, for which the sensor suite is all-Israeli. while it will take time for all current IAF combat aircraft to be datalinked, and for the IAF's operational doctrine to be perfected, this does promise to make the PAF's already unenviable tsk look even more hopeless.

Israel has supplied the radars for the Indian PAD and AAD two-level ballistic missile defence system, now in development. The signal processing and target recognition software is supposed to be all Indian. When this project fructifies, Israel may be a potential customer (along with all other countries that are now threatened by the Sino-Islamic axis).

India for their part launched an Israeli TechSAR spy satellite into orbit in January 2008 aboard the PSLV C10 launcher. Six weeks ago, India launched their own TechSAR (supplied by the Israelis) aboard PSLV C12. It would probably make perfect sense for India and Israel to pool the resources of the two satellites, given that the geographical areas of primary interest to Israel (mostly West Asia) are different from those of primary interest to India (China and Pakiland). My private guess is that this is already being done.

This is certainly a promising partnership which we all hope will grow from strength.

{{Israel has become a conduit of sophisticated US military tech and training to India, posing a threat to Pakistan.}}

Oh no, it's not a threat to Pakistan - certainly not to the Pakistani awam. It greatly raises the potential cost of any contemplated Pakistani action against India and limits Pakistan's options. It thereby constrains the behaviour of the Paki military and establishment and their ability to be aggressive against India, and thus increases the likelihood of a durable peace. It is only a threat to the Paki military and the kleptocratic Paki establishment.

Umm....

More precisely " Laanat hai is Arbi-Islami bhoot par"

Riaz ul Haq is a typical Arbi-Charbi admirer with lots of hatred for Jews and hindus.

Re: # 231

"Israelis trained Indian commandos who embarrassed their Israeli trainers when they miserably failed in Mumbai last year."

So, this Jehadi master is pitying Indians for not being able to kill his jehadis even with jewish support??

This Islami virus of hatred for Jews and mushriques like us is too obvious.

Lanat hai is Islami bhoot par!!

Re: # 229
I do know about the burgeoning India-Israel axis, so much so that Israel has become a conduit of sophisticated US military tech and training to India, posing a threat to Pakistan.

Israel has also been active in Kashmir. Israeli Army Chief General Mizrahi visited Kashmir in September, 2008.

Israelis trained Indian commandos who embarrassed their Israeli trainers when they miserably failed in Mumbai last year.

Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 229

Good point. I suspect they believe they are Palestinians first and Muslims later.

Have Palestinians supported Pakistan, over Kashmir?
NO!

#226 you can disagree if you like. you cannot change electoral results in pakistan vs india.

#226 you can disagree if you like. you cannot change electoral results in pakistan vs india.

Re: # 223

Tahmed - I respectfully disagree. If vast majority of Pakistanis believed in "Ropi kapra aur makaan" over religion, Pakistan would never have been in the state of crisis it is in today.

Even if my above assertion is wrong - Pakistan establishment over the last 3 decades has created enough "infrastrucutre" to try to make the vast majority believe that religion is more important than roti kapra aur makaan and hence this crisis. One can just hope that the establishment hasn't been sucessful in indoctrinating the "vast majority".

#224 this man in the urdu film i mentioned also cut his mothers heart out on the same kind of principle - that of blind love. how about also adopting the principle of objectivity and open-mindedness? you have kept your mind tightly closed to what i wrote - and instead chosen to simply attack your own misrepresentations (anti-arab racism on my part and what not).

Re: # 220
tahmed, My support for Palestinians has nothing to do with them being Arab or Muslim or Christian (many are Christians, including one who I sent to Israel to work for me there, to the displeasure of many Israelis), it is based on principle. I do not see it as a favor to anyone, nor do I expect anything in return.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

#222 dude: the "vast majority" of pakistanis vote for "roti, kapra aur makan". not for "death to america" or
"jihad fi sabilillah". and i dont think Riaz sahib would, if push came to shove, vote for the latter either. Its just his ardent love for "arab causes" that I asking him to cool down a bit.

Re: # 221

Tahmed - I know that you know the answer to this question. The question is for the vast majority of Pakistanis. And the challenge for the likes of you is to convince them about your viewpoint.

dude #219 your question is hardly difficult - if you werent so focussed on making a point, you would know i am the last person to give someone a pass just because he is a "muslim".

Riaz sahib: how come in all these years not one palestinian has shown up on chowk to return the favor by speaking out on behalf of pakistanis on chowk?

you and other pakistanis who are blind by their love of arabs remind me of this character in an urdu film i saw as a child where the princess tells her ardent lover that to prove his love he should cut out the heart of his mother and bring it to her. the man goes straight home, cuts out his mother's heart, and brings it back. The princess then asks him how he expects her to marry an animal like him.

replace the mother with our brave soldiers unfortunate enough to fall into the hands of these animals, replace the blind love for the princess by this cold-hearted fool and replace his blind love for the princess with this centuries old unrequited love "muslim brothers" by indian muslims - and you start getting the picture.

also remember - what has this ardent love bought pakistanis? the same contempt as the princess had for her lover-boy!! as illustrated by Iran's prompt and no uncertain threat to Pakistan the day after these animals attacked it. So, ultimately all this one-sided madness has turned even the princess - the iranis in this case - to turn against Pakistan.

Re: # 218

Tahmed - You may choose to ignore the difficult questions I pose - because I am an Indian. The fact remains - Pakistan has to answer these tough questions if it has to emerge stronger from this crisis.

dude: when BJP is reduced to a fringe party like its counterparts in Pakistan, then you can stand on a secular pedestal and start preaching to us using rhetoric as a teaching tool.

So dont lose time - there are enough sri rams on chowk for you to form a small adult literacy school for you to start freeing from the clutches of their primitive hindutva mindsets.

#214 sri ram dudda: of course we pakis are idiots. that is why we dont want to have anything to do with sri ram duddas like you - from 1947 to date!!

Re: # 214

Bubba,

They might be confused right now. But in order to emerge as a successful nation state - they will have to answer this question.

I am hopeful they will answer it sooner than later.

Honestly - I am being very selfish as an Indian and I want them to emerge as a moderate nation state from this crisis. As they say - every challenge is an opportunity first...

Re: # 212
tahmed: I am sorry but I think you are pursuing a totally wrong line of arguments and thinking here. None of what you say has anything to do with the continuing suffering of Palestinians (both Muslims AND Christians) at the hands of Israelis, who have had a carte blanche from the United States. If anything, the Palestinians have also been the victims of Israelis AND al Qaeda who have hijacked and mislabeled the Palestinians' genuine national movement just as bin Laden and his gang have hijacked Islam.

What you need is clear thinking, not misguided anti-Arab emotions and rhetoric.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 213 Posted by dude40000 on June 1, 2009 6:42:53 am

dude,

pakis are confused, and you will never get an honest answer.

what are they first?

[Are you Pakistanis first or Muslims/Sunnis first?]

They are idiots first. Then as rf bhai suggested they have to transform into human beings, and only then can they graduate in becoming a muslim.

Except of course, whatever Hamid mian suggests.

Re: # 212

I think all Pakistanis have to answer the question I read somewhere on Dawn, I think.

Are you Pakistanis first or Muslims/Sunnis first? If they can answer this question honestly first and act upon it many things will fall into place.

and i think pakistanis for whom the suffering of fellow pakistanis at the hands of the arab throat-slitters and woman beaters and their taliban-lackeys is not an issue should be ashamed to call themselves pakistanis.

and if it seems i am merely fussing about nothing - it is not just the indians and americans and brits who are complaining about Pakistani support for arab hooligans. Today- surprise - even Iran has threatened to enter Pakistan and put an end to the mischief caused by Pakistan-based hooligans in Zahedan! (see Dawn newspaper today).

So wake up, Riaz Sahib. It is not just "confused, misled by fox news" cantonment dogs like me who are warning you to use your head when it comes to the "pious muslims" - it is muslims themselves who are beginning to smell the stink of these animals wearing the mask of "Islam".

Dost Mittar: Where did i mention settlements? and presenting names (as you do of Obama and as RiazHaq does about some jewish writer) is not an argument anyway.

Riaz sahib: if you cant deal with what i wrote, dont try to make me the issue by saying that I am merely confused and misled. There is nothing confusing in what I wrote. You simply have no honest response to it.

dude: Thanks for correcting Riaz sahib on his refusal to stop pretending that what I wrote translates into anti-arab racism. I guess this means he has no honest response to what I wrote below.

Re: # 206

Dost, Riaz - You are correct in saying that noone should paint all Arabs, Muslims with the same brush. To add, we should not paint all Jewish people with the same brush either.

To TAhmed's defense - I don't think TAhmed is saying that at all. All he is saying is that instead of focussing on the plight of Palestanians the priorities of Pakistani people should be their own people such as those in IDP's and getting affected by fellow Muslims and a few Arabs.

Re: # 206
Correction: Let's try and be intelligent in differentiating AMONG people...even most liberal Jews would NOT agree with your characterization of all Arabs.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 202
tahmed: I think you are confused, like many confused Americans who paint all Arabs, Muslims, Pakistanis, etc by the same brush.

Just because a few Arabs have joined al Qaeda and committed atrocities against Americans and fellow Muslims does not mean all Arabs are bad, as many in the US media/entertainment/news channels would have you believe.

Let's try and be intelligent in differentiating people...even most liberal Jews would agree with your characterization of all Arabs.

In Israel, I found it was easier to debate the issues surrounding Palestinian occupation and Israel-Palestinian conflict than it is in the stifling atmosphere in the US, which is controlled by the right-wing Likud lobby...closely aligned with the neocons who brought nothing but disaster in the last decade.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 195
malikrashid,
Here's how a UC Santa Barbrara's Jewish-American professor William Robinson recently described Israel's action in Gaza: "Gaza is Israel's Warsaw -- a vast concentration camp that confined and blockaded Palestinians. We are witness to a slow-motion process of genocide."

Of course, he is now facing an orchestrated campaign to defame and destroy him by on-campus Jewish groups whose efforts at curbing academia freedom have been well documented by professors Mearsheimer and Walt of Harvard University.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

tahmed#201:

Even Obama has come out openly against the Israeli encroachments. Israeli leaders have taken full advantage of the lack of leadership among Palestinians to encroach on their territory while claiming to be only protecting their citizens. They must first stop expansion of settlements and then roll them back if they want any peace.

Riaz sahib: I'll be back later to continue this discussion. So please take a deep breath, focus on what i am saying instead of on long-held standard assumptions concerning anyone questioning pakistani "islam" or arab "causes". and try to be fair and objective before responding.

#200 Riaz sahib: I am sure you are shocked to hear of anyone questioning the purity of the palestinian "cause". Perhaps you should take time off from your concern for the ill-treatment of palestinans by isrealis and look at the ill-treatment of pakistanis by by "fellow muslim" arabs. When palestinians start getting beheaded by Israelis they way Pakistanis have been beheaded not just in saudi arabia but inside Pakistan by arab lackeys aka taliban, then come talk to me about the pious "arab causes"!!

dost mittar: please dont make up such hollow arguments and false distinctions. what are the palestinians complaining about if not about being evicted from their lands 60 years ago? the palestinian "cause" is as much a political football as is the kashmiri "cause". where welfare of the individuals concerned takes back seat to the political expediencies of arab dictators in the middle east, of pakistani militarists in Pakistan, and of hindu chauvinists in india.

Re: # 195
tahmed: I am shocked at your characterization of Palestinians as playing "victim card". It seems that the Jewish media propaganda that surrounds you in US has affected your ability to see and comprehend the reality of Israel's war crimes against the Palestinians. You need to look beyond what you see and hear through the well-controlled debate in the US.

I have personally been to Israel/Palestine several times and seen first-hand how Palestinians are regularly harassed, humiliated, injured and killed, their homes, businesses and olive orchards bulldozed, and they are jailed on the slightest pre-text. I have also been to some of the West Bank towns and seen the vast difference between the way the Palestinians barely subsist and the lifestyle of settlers who have usurped vast tracts of Palestinians lands to build an infrastructure of roads, bridges, electricity grid etc that the Palestinians are deprived of on their own land.

Even Bill Clinton admitted the ill-treatment of Palestinians when he told them that they "have been dispossessed and dispersed" and more recently Carter called it "Apartheid". Recently, the Israeli soldiers have admitted to wanton killings of unarmed Gaza civilians and the use of phosphorus bombs in Gaza....these actions amount to war crimes.

I think you need to learn about the reality of what the Israelis have done to the nation of Palestinians for the last 60+ years, remembering for the moment that they are human beings before they are Arabs, Palestinians or Muslims or Christians.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

#197 casting all arabs as barbaric would indeed be a racist stereotype. however, that is not what i wrote.

Glad we agree on this arab-lotapan of pakistanis who think Islam is about reciting the Quran with an arab accent. And who are willing to ignore the savagery conducted in the name of islam was carried out by arabs not just in distant places like the world trade center or libya (where throat slitting of villagers was a widely used technique of the arabs) but also inside Pakistan on fellow Pakistanis themselves. And there is no shortage of Pakistanis who are even now berating the Pakistan army for coming to the defense of Pakistan, simply because the animals they are defending Pakistan against claim to be the champions of islam.

tahmed32:

"And enough about this "victim card" of the palestinians - they have played it long enough. There were several times more individuals evicted from their ancestral homes in 1947 in the subcontinent than the palestinians - and to their credit they have not played the victim card the way the arabs have all these years."

1947 was an episodic event, though more brutal and upsetting than the creation of Israel. But the plight of Palestinians is a continuing affair. Israelis continue to expand their settlements on Palestinian lands while playing the victim card. Israel will have to stop encroaching on the West Bank and roll back settlements if they are going to get any sympathy from me.

Re# 195 Tahmed32
The reverence and solidarity shown to Arabs because they speak Arabic is obvious in Pakistani discourse. Categorizing all Arabs as barbaric might be racist stereotyping.

dr hoodbhoy,

.... you are a good man, but you should stop making a fool out of yourself on this nuclear issue and instead focus on trying to reform the hec ...... the paki public loves the bomb and you are out of syn with the majority civil society and the unwashed masses on this issue ......

..... i honestly believe that if we didn't have the bum the horrible hindoos would be up to all kinds of mischief .......as it is, we have our hands full with the imran khan and his taliban without hanuman's primates threatening us ....... the bomb is the only thing saving our bum ..........

eid-ul-bum mubarak

#194 malikrashid: An "attempt" at genocide is something different than actual genocide. It only causes confusion to toss around such terms. And it is irresponsible to equate your assumptions of Israeli intent with actual historical facts.

It is time Pakistanis ended their centuries old unrequited love for the arabs and started looking at facts, not arab-serving assumptions. If the barbarous practices introduced by arabs in Pakistan - the slicing of heads of helpless prisoners - are not enough to wake Pakistanis up to the reality of the Arabs today (politically and socially the most backward societies in the world today), then I dont know what will.

And enough about this "victim card" of the palestinians - they have played it long enough. There were several times more individuals evicted from their ancestral homes in 1947 in the subcontinent than the palestinians - and to their credit they have not played the victim card the way the arabs have all these years.

Re# 191
Tahmed32
I wrote in response to Riaz Haq's ilog threatening Pakistanis what India could do to them if they do not show complete loyalty to the Army. Hence I used the term genocide, borrowing from the material I intended to repudiate. Israel was founded with the displacement of Palestinians in mind and subsequent events testify to the wilful humiliation, discrimination and oppression. The presumption that the indigenous could be pushed away did not prove as successful in Palestine as it was in USA. With the world attention focused at them the Israeli could not reduce the Palestinians into minority for good. You may disagree with the term but the efforts did look like an attempt at genocide.

Re#175
Mohtaram Riaz Sahib
If progress means building an army and bombs, then Pakistan should be at its height. The people displaced from rural areas on a regular basis hang bedsheets to make a shelter in the open, in big cities. The only government employee to get in touch with them is a policewala who is looking to run their girls as prostitutes and boys into drug-peddling.
When the city wants its land vacated, a bull-dozer and police arrives and the bedsheet shelter that was turned into a jhuggi after years of labour, is demolished. This is real life for 3/4 of Pakistanis and it could be similar statistics for India. Governments in these two states are in clear violation of their social contract. Any attempt to project hostility and build firepower is only an excuse for oppression.

malikrashid #173 you imply the familiar bs of arabs, faithfully echoed by many pakistanis, that israel has committed genocide in Gaza. Do you understand the meaning of genocide? And if you do, how come after 40 years there are more, not less, palestinians in Gaza? How come the only thing arabs and israelis agree on is that palestinians are increasing in numbers with time? If this is genocide, then Hitler must have been running fertility clinics rather than death camps.

malikrashid #173 you imply the familiar bs of arabs, faithfully echoed by many pakistanis, that israel has committed genocide in Gaza. Do you understand the meaning of genocide? And if you do, how come after 40 years there are more, not less, palestinians in Gaza? How come the only thing arabs and israelis agree on is that palestinians are increasing in numbers with time? If this is genocide, then Hitler must have been running fertility clinics rather than death camps.

Re: # 172 Posted by ahmedmadani on May 31, 2009 6:30:41 pm

Amed Madani sahib:

Why are you blowing smoke regarding Riaz Haq sahib? Do you remember, some of your students that you tutored in maths, did not pay you for your tutoring? With your teary eyes, you used to tell us that they became engineers and went on to the US, and that they never paid you for your tutoring services.

Guess what? Could it be that Riaz Haq sahib is one of them? Just ask him, he went to NED Engineering college. Did he use your tutoring services, and did he pay you for those services?

Re: # 166

Madani - It may be a Jewish sounding name but amongst other influential positions he held he was present in the dressing down meeting between Bill Clinton and Nawaz Sharif during the Kargil war. So you can trust he would know a thing or two.

Here's the quote:

"In the White House there was growing concern the war would escalate out of control and could even go nuclear. On July 4, 1999, Mr. Clinton and I met with Mr. Sharif alone at Blair House and told him Pakistan was playing with fire. Mr. Sharif agreed to withdraw the army back behind the line of control."

Re: # 175 Riaz: "While fighting the Taliban as a serious internal security is very important for Pakistani military now, it must not be done at the expense of losing Pak sovereignty to the imperialist wannabes next door."

How is it different from what Pak has been following / focussing for the last 60+ years. You already know the results of this policy and its downward direction, however hard you portray it otherwise. All the facts you present cannot hide the ugly IMF loan, 3.5M IDP, next-2-weeks-important for Pak etc. You are a great believer of the facts/figures, and I read that the Talibans have killed more Pakis than the Indian army.

It is difficult to accept the change but try it before it is too late.

Pakistsn built ISLAMI BOMB in order to avenge humiliation of 1971 defeat.

""The new prime minister, Zulfikar Ali Bhutto, convened the country's top 50 scientists secretly in January 1972 and challenged them to build a bomb. He famously said that Pakistanis would sacrifice everything and "eat grass" to get a nuclear deterrent. The 1974 Indian nuclear explosion only intensified the quest."

- so, now does this band master have any answer??

Pak's nuke quest pre-dated India's 1974 test: US report
31 May 2009, 2017 hrs IST, Chidanand Rajghatta, TNN
Print Email Discuss Share Save Comment Text:
WASHINGTON: Pakistan began its pursuit of nuclear weapons in 1972 soon after the 1971 war with India, a new US Congressional report has said,
challenging the conventional (and Pakistani) narrative that India's first nuclear test in 1974 was the trigger for its weapons quest.

In a May 15 report to US lawmakers, the Congressional Research Service says Pakistan's nuclear energy program dates back to the 1950s, "but it was the loss of East Pakistan (now Bangladesh) in a bloody war with India that probably triggered a political decision in January 1972 (just one month later) to begin a secret nuclear weapons program."

Observers point to the peaceful nuclear explosion by India in 1974 as the pivotal moment which gave additional urgency to the program, it adds. Pakistan has long argued, and falsely represented to the international community, that it was forced to take the nuclear weapons path because it was provoked by India's first nuclear test in 1974.

While many credulous observers buy into this narrative, other experts point out that Zulfikar Ali Bhutto's famous call to nuclear arms in 1972 pre-dated India's test.

One such expert, White House insider Bruce Riedel, who recently co-authored the Obama administration's Af-Pak policy, offered the following sequence in a recent op-ed, broadly concurring with the CRS report:

"The origins of the Pakistani nuclear program lie in the deep national humiliation of the 1971 war with India that led to the partition of the country, the independence of Bangladesh and the destruction of the dream of a single Muslim state for all of south Asia's Muslim population. The military dictator at the time, Yahya Khan, presided over the loss of half the nation and the surrender of 90,000 Pakistani soldiers in Dacca. The Pakistani establishment determined it must develop a nuclear weapon to counter India's conventional superiority.

"The new prime minister, Zulfikar Ali Bhutto, convened the country's top 50 scientists secretly in January 1972 and challenged them to build a bomb. He famously said that Pakistanis would sacrifice everything and "eat grass" to get a nuclear deterrent. The 1974 Indian nuclear explosion only intensified the quest.

"Mr. Bhutto received an unsolicited letter from a Pakistani who had studied in Louvain, Belgium, Abdul Qadeer Khan, offering to help by STEALING sensitive centrifuge technology from his new employers at a nuclear facility in the Netherlands. Over the next few years—with the assistance of the Pakistani intelligence service, the Inter Services Intelligence Directorate (ISI)—Mr. Khan would STEAL the key technology to help Pakistan produce fissionable material to make a bomb."

Both the CRS report and Riedel point to the help China gave Pakistan in its nuclear weapons quest, a subject successive US administrations are leery of broaching for fear of angering Beijing. "Islamabad gained technology from many sources," says the CRS report, adding, "This extensive assistance is reported to have included, among other things, uranium enrichment technology from Europe (stolen by Khan, according to Riedel), blueprints for a small nuclear weapon from China, and missile technology from China."

Riedel concurs, writing, "China also helped the nascent Pakistani program overcome technical challenges. According to some accounts by proliferation experts, it allowed Pakistani scientists to participate in Chinese tests to help them learn more about the bomb."

Re: # 160 Riaz: "Do the critics of Pakistani nukes such as Pervez Hoodbhoy want to see India do to Pakistan what Israel has been doing to its neighbors? I certainly hope not!".
You are fully entitled to have any fears and concerns and justify the Pak nukes. But please check them on the following questions:

How do you propose to allay similar fears held by the Indians, in the light of the past misadventure attempts like Kargil, Parliament attack, Mumbai attack on India.

Secondly dont you think that your fears of Indian attack are imaginary rather than real. Imagine if Pakistan would have 7 times bigger in size than India and having stronger and bigger economy, militry strength and India would have made attacks such the Kargil, Parliament, Mumbai on Pakistan, how the stronger Pakistan would have handled weaker India. Would the strong Pakistan be still showing the same maturity/restraint as the India of today. I seriously doubt pak would be showing that maturity considering that everybody in Pak is aware of the its weakness vis a vis India, but still it wants to pick up some excuse to fight with India.

Riaz's ilog is all BS.

He tries to equate Pakistani-Army with Pakistani-Awaam.

Yes, India or any other country in this world MUST finish off this horrible piece of s#$% called Pakistani army in order to save Pakistani awaam.

The wntire world MUST take hold of the nukes before the na-paak army itself smuggles a few of them to the Talibani jehadis who would (Bhagwan na kare!!) blackmail the entire world with disaster if the Islami demands emanating from Quran , that Riaz supports, are not met.

"then by imposing multiple wars, banning overflights, amassing troops on Pak borders, invading East Pakistan, ..."

Nothing can be more dangerous than a bigotted Pakistani who refuses to acknowledge the fraud called TNT which is again based upon one of the biggest lies in the history of mankind, that forces them to peddle more lies in order to justify their current state.

It is time Pakistanis ask these band masters not to use titles that seem to represent the views of the majority.

Re: # 173 malikrashid: very much agree to your post.

Specially liked the last 2 statements:
"The bigotry of the hindus and the muslims is the real problem keeping the region backward and embroiled in conflicts. Reactionary forces opposed to human growth play this game everywhere in the world"

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Re: # 178
You seem to have forgotten the days before you migrated to the West when you were one of the tens of millions of Pakistanis shitting in the open.
Please make some valid arguments instead of repeating stale stuff after every two or three posts.

Re: # 75 Bhairav...

I liked your first para and fully agree to it.

Re: # 177 "Who knows in another 10-15 years, the job maybe complete? "

Haven't you and your fellow ill-wishers been dreaming of that since 1947? First by trying to withhold Pakistan's share of the reserves, then by trying to withhold water, then by imposing multiple wars, banning overflights, amassing troops on Pak borders, invading East Pakistan, threarening strikes repeatedly every time a fuse blows in your crappy democratic system, and you automatically blame Pakistan?

You are a lot like Wile E. Coyote trying to get the Road Runner. Haven't you bigots learned your lesson in repeted falls and failures? It ain't gonna happen, in spite of Cassandras like Hoodbhoy in our ranks, who excercises his academic freedom in spite of being on Pak govt payroll.

With over 6000 Indian children every day dying of hunger, how many more of your poor children are you going to deprive of food to try and get Pakistan? How many of more o your babies are you willing to sacrifice to poor sanitation? How long will two-thirds of your population have to defecate in the open?

Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

#175 by RiazHaq

While fighting the Taliban as a serious internal security is very important for Pakistani military now, it must not be done at the expense of losing Pak sovereignty to the imperialist wannabes next door.

Riaz mian, please go ahead and "focus" more on your eastern neighbor who is ready to gobble you up. Just 60 years of doing that has brought Pakistan to its knees. Who knows in another 10-15 years, the job maybe complete?

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Re: # 173
malikrshid,
My piece is not a figment of my own imagination. It is based on actual reported discussions and writings by Indian and American analysts, diplomats and reporters, not some biased Pakistani "reactionary" source. I have included some of the references. If you make an effort, you can probably find a lot more evidence of what I have stated.

While fighting the Taliban as a serious internal security is very important for Pakistani military now, it must not be done at the expense of losing Pak sovereignty to the imperialist wannabes next door.

You can ignore these warnings at your own peril, as Hoodbhoy has chosen to do. Don't let your ideological orthodoxy blind you to the reality of the situation in your neighborhood. "Progressive" does not mean you should ignore the dangers that surround you. If you keep your eyes open, being progressive may actually not become a hindrance to the "progress" you seek. It will actually help in your pursuit of "progress".
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 161
Ahmed...
Kashmir problem will never be solved with armed force, whatever way you want...Pakistan is the side, which is creating problem from the begining and definitely, the best way to solve it is, Pakistani administration has to be civilised...I am not seeing any light of hope in this regard...so, it will be like that, unless Pakistan disintegrates further...Somehow, US is trying to prevent it...Even before 1974, India never tried to attack Pakistan..It was Pakistan, which attacked India and got bloody nose every time....

India making a Gaza of Pakistan is almost laughable, not because Pakistan has nukes but Indian government has bigger domestic issues to handle. In a hypothetical situation where only India has nukes and Pakistan does not, how would it be beneficial for the Indian government to embark on a genocidal programme? India has its own muslim population. India has a huge population of poor and a large part of India lacks modern infrastructure.
Since the 16th century, muslims of India have been driven towards a distrust of hindus. Then, the insecurity of muslims sprung from the threat to their rule over India. That same insecurity revealed itself since Pakistan was founded. The hindus want to take-over our kingdom has been the mantra used to grow an army disproportionate to the size of the country. Insecure against India, the Pakistan army extracts every resource leaving the large population impoverished. Surrendering a large number of soldiers and the east wing of the country, the army could only manage to impose its ownership on the country by usurping democracy and still desires to keep the people angry and poor. The bigotry of the hindus and the muslims is the real problem keeping the region backward and embroiled in conflicts. Reactionary forces opposed to human growth play this game everywhere in the world.

Re: # 170 NKG why you use bad words ? You are very angry man and gods make you angree when it wants to destroy you.
Pro.R.Haq is well educated erudite, wise and lives in California, has taught in colleges of USA have doctoral degree. You need to respect his scholarship . If you do not like him just do not react. Sir we are not in foreign (you and me) that is ok. I request you to control anger.
You have said bad words about me ,but I understand you and never said bad words. I will depart without any malice and wish you good luck and go in peace.
If you want enjoy this music and feel better.
1.http://www.esnips.com/playlist/31f34d0b-3218-45c9-9745-669ab568a229ht tp:

http://www.esnips.com/doc/3c9e0831-5573-4266-abe8-d2b6a455525b/Dr.-Smt.-B harati-Vaishampayan_Raga-Khambavati

I feel prof R.Haq should not do take duty of dirt sweeper of india and become like arjun of India.

No point in rehashing same stuff verbatum. Is my opinion do not become fast Xrox machine. Let it be slow but subtle. Mr. T though my distractor he once said right about that.

Why Jayp is allowed ? At this rate Arjun"X" X=1,N N=infinity ,will soon start infinite series.

Re: # 160
riaz katue...
India houses 15 crore muslas and several mini-pakistans and mini arabias...Indian administration will never fancy to bomb Pakistan they way Israel do....

Re: # 162 Thanks just water and air and food of Karachi.
Such combination in lahore or any place is not possible.

Re: # 166 bruce is jewish sounding name

Re: # 162
About teaching/higher mathematics ideas
I wrote " A person with deep knowledge does not degrade but make it simple without loss of true content , If students say difficult subject but teacher makes interesting is heavenly for teacher." I need to add.

"deep knowledge" is necessary but not sufficient what more is needed is depth,Maturity and wisdom and innocent mind devoid of beliefs and large landscape and mind should be like new bride. What I want to say , a young woman with her fathers family leaves home to join new man and create new family she has courageful faith and faithful courage. Same way it is hard for most students to make migration but efforts and encouragement from teacer makes it possible.Once I asked my female brilliant student how she made transition.She told me it was easy for women. She told we are prepared to leave our family from day we are born without looking back same it was easy mentaly for her to leave traditional thinking to look Mathematical ideas of real analysis,topology has some truth. General rule if your teacher brings books with and looks into it then sign of lacking maturity and depth and wisdom , for we never make or teach calculations.Teaching is fine profession if do not mind to be happy most time and innocent. I feel better to have corrected. Good day.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970203658504574191842820382548.html

This artcle by Bruce Riedel in yesterday's WSJ is a good history lesson on the Pakistani bumb.

The reasons for lack of strikes against Pakisatan in response to terrorist strikes within India are:

Hinjra's western masters didn't give them permission.

Cannibalistic Hinjras don't have balls.

possession of nuclear weapons won't deter war: it is just another weapon like the Sabre and the Patton tanks that made Pakisatan invincible during the 65 and 71 wars.

Re: # 161

Main to Madani Sahib ka fan ho gaya.

Madani Sahib said - "Just like israe if pakistan develops nuclear superiority on India with three times war heads and keep them on rails moving 24 hours from Karachi to peshawar"

I think this one was the gem this time - especially the one saying keep them on rails 24 hrs :-)

Madani Sahib - Any reason why you choose Karachi and Peshawar and not any other Pakistani city?

[Did the bomb help Pakistan liberate Kashmir from Indian rule? It is a sad fact that India’s grip on Kashmir — against the will of Kashmiris — is tighter today than it has been for a long time. As the late Eqbal Ahmed often remarked,
Pakistan’s abysmally poor politics helped snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. ]

Mr Hoodbhoy, I have read many of your articles before, and had begun to have a sneaking suspicion that maybe there are exceptions to the rule that ALL muslims are not Islamists. Unfortunately, with this article, it seems that there are no exceptions. It is just a matter of degrees.

Kashmir has been the homeland of Hindus for many centuries. Legally, it also belongs to us. If you subscribe to the view that anytime Muslims are a majority in one portion of a state, then they have the right to secede and form their own country under Allah, then by that logic, Hindus should take precautions everywhere in India, and drive Muslims out from wherever they are tending to concentrate.

Islam is the most terrible thing that has afflicted mankind. Even well-educated people become communal in their logic and thinking.


[The bomb helped us lose Kashmir.]

You never had it in the first place, so the question of losing it does not arise. The part that you do have, you STOLE from us - your "Quaid" claimed he was not involved in the theft, but didn't mind keeping the stolen goods.

[Some might ask, didn’t the bomb stop India from swallowing up Pakistan? First, an upward-mobile India has no reason to want an additional 170 million Muslims. Second, even if India wanted to, territorial conquest is impossible.
Conventional weapons, used by Pakistan in a defensive mode, are sufficient protection. If the mighty American python could not digest Iraq, there can never be a chance for a middling power like India to occupy Pakistan, a country four times larger than Iraq.]

It is true that India has NO interest in invading Pakistan and occupying it (although if the tables were turned, and Pakistan was Hindu and India was Muslim, then that is precisely what would have happened). Paki politicians and Generals use this myth to whip the Islamic public into a perpetual state of frenzy and paranoia to justify their existence. However, someday when India gets rid of the spineless Congress dynasty, AND when India becomes stronger economically, India SHOULD take back PoK, which legally and morally belongs to us. It is a myth that Pakistan's conventional or unconventional arsenal is what is deterring this. India still needs oil for many years to come. As do the US and NATO countries who have been aiding and abetting Pakistan in everything for a long time. But this is changing. The change is inexorable and irreversible. In a couple of decades, Saudis will be discounting oil to try and sell it. THAT'S when India should invade and take back PoK. Pakistan's convetional army will not be able to prevent it, and if India declares publicly that they want PoK and PoK only, they will not dare use nukes. And India should abolish article 370 and resettle Indians from everywhere on Government property.

THAT is the long-term solution.

[It is, of course, true that Pakistan’s nuclear weapons deterred India from launching punitive attacks at least thrice since the 1998 tests. ]

Bull$hit. The Congress Govt. would NEVER do anything to lose the Indian Muslim vote. Why would Indian Muslims care if India attacks Pakistan? Same reason why Advani had to go to Pakistan and praise Jinnah to get INDIAN Muslim votes. Indian Muslims are MUSLIMS first, and MAYBE Indians later.

Re: # 133

Ahmedmadani sahib

Unbelievably brilliant, where do you get all these ideas from, its just amazing. Thussi great ho madani sahib, honestly.

Re: # 160 Thanks Prof R.Haq read.
Sure we donot want nuclear disarment and stuff it will be suicidal. Just like israe if pakistan develops nuclear superiority on India with three times war heads and keep them on rails moving 24 hours from Karachi to peshawar even satellites of india will be confused with all additonal dummy missile s floating around.
Also if we loose crown jewels along with india also our standing will go down drains. Pakistan says anything people listen due to Atom and City busters the hydrogen bombs you loose , its is like woman loosing her ornments she does not look good. It is not only deterent value but more psycological boost. As I said before you can love nukes and kiss them t can not use on TPP but creates terror in minds of TTP. If we want to reduce swaet and blood is allow Dr Khan to start research new advanced wepons like neutron bombs and stuff. Kashmir problems will be solved with sweat, blood and nuclear superiority. Overwhelming nuclear superiotity will force western forces to make india accept fare deals accepted by Pakistan and delayed return of kashmir to pakistan control and leading to future adjustments for damages etc. There in view of settling problems and of land control and river control n Indian areas over catcxhment areas of our waters can settlede with magnanimous magnitude on ourside. If present ruler can do that Talibs will collapse as house of cards, otherwise they can tease govt and say they will solve problems with india , prompting people to give them chance.
Weak nations peaceful intentions are suspect and not honored by enemies like India. It sad all leftwings like H.Boy wants to destroy fusion bombs and army. They get published and they wine and dine at conferences but dr Khan is chained and made thoothless tiger , and prisoned. Sorry state.

Do the critics of Pakistani nukes such as Pervez Hoodbhoy want to see India do to Pakistan what Israel has been doing to its neighbors? I certainly hope not!

Please read my ilog in response to this article by Dr. Hoodbhoy: http://chowk.com/ilogs/72253/48173


Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Article is good or bad I can not fathom are honestly these are too complex , chain reactive probabilites, we nomal people have not brains enough to comment about these difficult issues. Should be left to people with brains and good brainy advisors we can drink out chai and bisscuits and go to sleep.
But prof Hoodbhoy have attitude problem. He is always critical while is refreshing to see prof R.Haq defending Pakistan and demolishing "shining india thesis". I have never seen prof H.Boy attacking india or showing faultlines and fakeness of indian elections and democracy , poverty and multitude problems facing starving country. He is not oppoposed to western plans of taking and destroying achievement of nation and national science, he can sacrifice for his strange ideas national assets. Great misuse of democracy.

Re: # 148 NKG I second your comments.
good thinking

Hamidm2 miaN, how about dipping into that bottomless bank account of yours to make large donations for the cause of the IDPs instead of throwing large parties to honor the Indians who will only turn around and laugh at you (when you are not watching, of course!) and the little bit that you throw toward the likes of Congressman Endophallus Towns! (Who also ends up smirking when you are not watching.)

What a faker of a Pakistani are you!!

As far as the Pakistani bum is concerned -- it always was America's and shall always remain so!!

Make no mistake about it. America owns the Pakistani bum!

A remarkable article. Sane words in the wilderness of fundamentalism and twisted notions of national pride called Pakistan.
I Q Bhatt

Re: # 154

Bhairav - you are going to be detained by Chowk staff for posting this here :-)

Shit! What just happened! Damn! Wrong post at wrong place. Is there a post-recall feature here?

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eid-ul-bum mubarak,

..... like the other eids, all good pakis should clebrate eid-ul-bum for three or more days ..... as a matter of fact, we should clebrate it every day to pee off the horrible hindoos who, if it weren't for the bum, would be bursting out of their dhotis ............

........ eid mubarak to all .........

The anniversary is fine but Pakistan must also factor in the future scenario in its policy. Who will control the nuclear arsenal when the country disintegrates under its own weight(Baluchistan will become independent, NWFP will join Afghanistan, Sindhis and Muhajirs will join India). One supposes the Punjabi Mussalman army.

Matlabi ji,

You know I speak the truth.If you could come down the supremacist pedestal that Islam proclaims and nullify your ego, you would certainly see the light!!

In the path of light, the only obstacle is the Islami-Ego of Mohammad which does not let muslims surrender themselves to the Allah (as Brahman).

The only damage bomb ever did was to those poor mountains of chagi.

.....rest was done by generals/mullas ... and the list goes on ...

jayp...
India is much in problem that Pakistan...
AT least, US,Saudis and China can bail out this small country...
I support this MatLoob (or it is MatLab)...

"Some of the frightened residents told The News that the militants were still patrolling the main Pacha bazaar and the adjoining villages. They said the Taliban stopped all passing vehicles and allowed them after thorough search.

According to the residents, the Taliban were also in control of the shrine of revered Sufi, Syed Ali Termizi, also popularly known as Pir Baba, and the adjoining mosque.

When this correspondent was at a point near Pacha Killay, there was an unusual silence but it was soon broken by heavy gunshots when the militants attacked the nearby security post."

The tamasha continues

................

the paki troops have crushed the taliban in buner.. and here is the truth.

The poor obama is also being fooled by the pakis, the tamasha to get the dollars continue. How can the paki troops kill the taliban when both are jihadic fighjters guided by the same ideology

Good to be back in these good times when the paki army has taken my advice.

At last they have realized that sending the jihadi taliban to the heavens is the duty of teh army created by TNT. The faujis are doing a good job, a little better show for the yanks. A very few appear to have been killed while most have been re-located to karachi as i said.

The bombs in karachi unfortunately have not reached the predictability.

The vision of TNt is finally materializing, after get rid of the hindus the jinnahites went for the shias, now it is teh turn of the madrassas products...the country always have to fight and kill the other...the central theis of two nation theory.

once a dhimmi always a dhimmi, you know your worth

Laddu
baaz aja mian itnay baray baray words utha ker na phir gir jaye ga aur haddi toot jaye gee kahin teri.

Those who go ranting non-stop with their non-sensical propaganda are nothing less than a serious case of paranoia.

Stop worrying about anything to do with Pakistan as if you are a real sympathizer who hurts in his heart about Pakistan. Instead go do something contributing positively for your Bharat maata, perhaps that will help cool you down and will BE helpful for your countrymen.

Stop worrying yourself to death about Pakistan and it's unfortunate people.

Re: # 141

And you remain the biggest supporters of ISlami bigotry as if this place is your Islami-Nizam where you can behead an idolator for criticizing the Islami lunaticism?

As if hindus are obligated to be as dhimmi intellectual slaves to your Islami bigotry and supremacism?

Re: # 140

Matloob mian,

So you actually want the Jehadi kuttas to remain your 'first line of defence' (as your idiotic army men say)??

You accuse me of paranoia when the fact remains that your country is on the verge of dissolution!!

Re: # 139
Laddu, you happen to be the biggest nonsenical on the entire chowk, and act as if these are your railway yard of Bombay where you must run each morning before sunrise or else you would be run over by the early morning train, while using the tracks for your personal purpose.

Laddu
Its about time that you and alike you be committed to a mental institution in USSR since its only Russians who have understood the brain malfunctions of laddus and alike.

You are not worthy of being treated at any other institution as you have surpassed all known strains of paranoia, when you cannot intellectually challenge the writings of someone you began your donkey rant, however the Russians carry the type of Asphalt that can repair potholes of your kind.

Nonsense propaganda by bigots like Riaz ul Haq.

Indians only want that Terrorist Vipers that you are germinating from your madarassas and Pakistani Islami Tanzeems that you fund must be destroyed.

You do not want to do that - but your karmas are catching.

Now , because of bigots like you who want their Jehadi kuttas to be given a nuclear umbrells , these jehsdi kuttas are pouncing on you and destroying you.

Pakistan is imploding because of bigots like you!!

Re: # 135

Is it the "Israel envy" again? Like many of your hawkish urban middle class blood-thirsty bigoted Indians, are you wishing you could "do a Lebanon" or "do a Gaza" to Pakistan?

Thanks to Pak ballistic missile and nukes, just remember what Sashi Tharoor, former UN official and your new MP from Kerala told you about "swift retaliation":

Hamas is in no position to repay Israel's air and ground attacks in kind, whereas an Indian attack on Pakistani territory, even one targeting terrorist bases and training camps, would invite swift retaliation from the Pakistani army. And, at the end of the day, one chilling fact would prevent India from thinking that it could use Israel's playbook: The country that condones, if not foments, the terror attacks on India is a nuclear power.


Yet, when Indians watch Israel take the fight to the enemy, killing those who launched rockets against it and dismantling many of the sites from which the rockets flew, some cannot resist wishing that they could do something similar in Pakistan. India understands, though, that the collateral damage would be too high, the price in civilian lives unacceptable, and the risks of the conflict spiraling out of control too acute to contemplate such an option. So Indians place their trust in international diplomacy and watch, with ill-disguised wistfulness, as Israel does what they could never permit themselves to do.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 64Posted by rf786 on May 30, 2009 1:24:10 am
Re: # 48

Ahmedmadani Sahib

As usual another insightful post, congrats.

Since we are benevolent people why not allow the 250,000 displaced Biharis languishing in Bangladesh back into Pakistan. Have them settled in Swat or Bajaur, I am sure they will be welcomed. While we are in the mood, kindly allow the 100 Million Indian Muslims to become a part of Pakistan, that will resolve all ethnic problems.


RF thoughtful response.
100 Million Muslims are not well come. Doors are closed.
But biharis have case. They may be right but being right is not sufficient. Time ticks away.
It is unfortunate and shameful of MQM to use issue to the hilt, exploitr and when they can do something abandon the poor people. The biharis are milked like cows for all they are worth , mostly cows are slaughterd and not helped by humans for milk. Bihiris are like cows, milked to death and left to slaughter, lesser said is better. Specially all chest beating in our country going for palestania to Ughars. Tons of theory noy ounce of action. People judge character and treat look how americans treat us and our neighbour, they may not like Iranians but they have no contempt. For moral nation believe is to act. We never act just react. Self criticism is only way to improve, sorry about that.

Riaz -ul-Haq is certainly a Propaganda Band master for Pakistani Army!!

His brothers must be in that Na-Paak Tanzeem!!

Re: # 134

"Indian army could destroy the Pakistan army "

Indian army destroying Pakistani army is certainly going to do good for Pakistani Awaam!!

Only a bigot like you cannot see the real difference between destroying Pakistani-Army and destroying PAkistan!!

Here's something that would interest critics of Pakistani nukes, such as Hoodbhoy:

Respected American South Asia expert Stephen Cohen of Washington's Brookings Institution recently told his audience: "Not a few Indian generals and strategists have told me that if only America would strip Pakistan of its nuclear weapons then the Indian army could destroy the Pakistan army and the whole thing would be over."

Still any illusions about general Indian goodwill toward Pakistan?
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

#62 Posted by tahmed32 on May 30, 2009 1:10:55 am
mr. madani: What are these Russian Illusion Air Machines? Sound like something from the fifth dimension.

Response: Thank you mr.T for taking note and bringing and exposing my infantile mental (dis)order. Most of writing is shear maddness and combined with challenged english spellings and understanding direct result of Karachi Sindhi English superimposed on urdu english. Now above was referring to airmachines taken from Russia which is standard medium airlift ugly aerodynamic shape but like scuds strong and reliable work horse. Cheap indian banias went to isralies and when they asked which platform you are offereing to mount radar. Banias said Nano platform cheap ,
Then jews reminded it need to go in air. So aircraft. Illuion is cheap fun of great strong reliable other of design beuros namely Sukoi and Mikoyan Gur.if correct.



About multi dimentional mathematic i do not understand and do not care anything advanced. Once I was teaching a student who was punishment to teacher except his daddy had good money for Madani. He always use to drive me mad and eat my brain. Once I told him you are curse to teach even male buffollow will be better student.
Once I was teaching students some tensor calculus. It was always hard to make people understand multidimentional physical mechanism. It is hard for many students and female students to understand tensor notation developed by mr. Einstein. Namely Sigma ijk, i etc. How several PDF can reduce to above equations. Many stdents use to wonder how can one can think of things multidimentions. Going to theorical is not good.
I used to explain simply by space is defined by three axies ( rectangular cartesian or curvenier) so think of travelling in space in vehicle. Vehicle is defined by traditional x,y, x. then I said the temp is varying, time is clicking and vehicle is charging, . So we have multidimension system without usual axis ( x, y, z, time, temp, electric charge). WE can have as many parameters so they realiased multidimensional problems. My experience even at "high Tech" math is oral teaching is best.

I my conclusions about Therotical maths teaching. Ignorant maths teacher makes subject more difficult , mediocore makes is trackable and student hate.Above type teachers hate,student hate and they say subject is tough but teacher makes it impossible and teacher say students are useless.( most are garbage). A person with deep knowledge does not degrade but make it simple without loss of true content , If students say difficult subject but teacher makes interesting is heavenly for teacher.


Wow Mr Ahmedmadani..well you write such hilarious pieces that I was tempted to sign up and write this message to compliment you.

Not here is we are getting in trouble. I try to write serious but mental problems make and become joke, what a tragedy.

I hope the buffollow headed students I have whipped and made them they go to usa and write thanks mr. Madani they can just $200 check for me but raskals will not do that. They forget ladder they used to climb.
Normally man is not respected at home by daughters. I even wrote one of my young daughters thesis from Karachi to usa univ. SHe called said she can not she has no time etc. (with all time available for romancing wrong type of people.). and start crying, poor father is god she feels. At same time she always tells me I am no good , do not have understanding of modern world, fashion sense and just not UPTODATE. The she emails all wasteful work and Madani works for 15 days and her thesis is great. I am getting tired of people who critic me for nothing. By the way all so called midwestern American univ lost prestige in my accounts. Prof are foolish as they accepted garbage as project. It was farce, they should not do that farce. If girl passes all grades in MS then she is fine. This was U of ….. great univ, my question is if this is so farce what will be Community colleges in usa , all feel good subjects heard they teach there. Things must be quite useless there as my daughter told me he professors feel she is very smart . She has gratitude and send checks never thought she will do it , she is very wise and told to all I much smarter than all my son in laws. I never here from them all worthless ungrateful usurpers.

About hair brains
As my Hater Mr. Laddu reminds about my medicines. He forgot I am free of all chemicals which I shunned. Modern medicines are made to kill and maim mind of people.. They put stuff under 20000 psi pressure add heat and cook chemicals and then that poison is given mentally mad like me or handicapped people. Depressed people do not need poison but nice theropy.

Before my mental health was very bad. And one doctor said I need some procedure on brain. I said ok it can not get much bad now. So one day I went to hospital and they put me on buggy made me lie facing sky. That thing had steel wheels that kind of frightened me. I said I can walk but they forced me on that platform and started pushing to operatin room. Then they left me hanging on it. And they all left I was really fearful. Then some young doctors with white coat with dirty evil smug faces were going like going to market. I shouted few times no body paid attention. Any way I was better looking , intelligent, tall, well shaved and fair looking and not mad looking ( I was just depressed) . So one young female doctor was going I shouted at her. To my surprise she came and she talked and impressed by my talking ( all fake sweet talk). I asked her what are they going to do me. She took some paper attached and read. I said what they said. She said not much we will cut some portion of skull and look inside and decide , decision is not made. Then she laughed said uncle do not worry we all students will help doctor and learn.
I said to young doctor I am really going to need to go to bath room , where are my clothes. She pointed to storage place. Then she said she need to go but do not worry. I said thank you, as soon as she left jumped and grabbed my clothe and ran for life. It was brain shattering so brain hair, my hairs just stood up for short time. Some evil doctors they are worst than saitan they take money and kill you and you have to thank them./
So brain hair term I coined.
I helped masadi to moderate and supported his anti emperial anti elist thoughts and still do but he does not like MQM. I was hoping for soft treatment but he is different no human forgiveness. These revolutionaries are devoid of kindness just anger and more anger
Good day.

Here is some for thought for Indian bigots who are gleefully bashing all things Pakistan, cheering any and all valid or invalid criticism of Pakistan in the interacts on Chowk, and rejoicing over Hoodbhoy's article, while tooting their own horns about India's morality and military prowess:

Two million children in India die and turn into statistics every year. That's about 6,000 deaths everyday. A CNN-IBN Special Investigation traveled to the rural heartlands of UP to document deaths and cases of malnutrition for a special edition of 30 Minutes. Here's the first installment from UP's Varanasi and Lalitpur districts.

Jaharunnissah lost her only son to hunger about two months ago. Four-year-old Khusbuddin was emaciated and weighed a mere 6.5 kg at the time of his death.

"Woh kuposhan ka shikar tha usko main doodh dava poora nahin kar paati thi paise ke kaaran is vajay se uski maut ho gayi. (I could not fend for his food and medicine. He died of malnutrition)," she says.

Abandoned by her husband, Jaharunnissah is trying to piece her life together. But at the end of one day of toil embroidering sarees, she is paid a meager Rs 10 or Rs 15.

"Aaj agar mere bachhe ka ilaaj ho jaata to mera bachha bach jaata is baat ka mujhe dard rehta hain ki paise na hone ke kaaran aaj maine apne bachhe ko kho diya. (I wish I hadn't lost my son. The pain of losing a child because of lack of money to feed him is unbearable)," says an inconsolable Jaharunnissah.

A few kilometers away, in another village near Varanasi, six-year-old Shamim is also battling malnutrition. Unlike other kids his age, he is neither playful nor talkative. A severe deficiency of proteins and calories has given him a bloated belly and reduced his immunity.

Says his mother, Zohra, "Isko TB aur gurde mein kharabi hai. haath per fool jata hai, saas phul jata hai (He is suffering from TB and has kidney trouble too. His limbs swell up and he faces breathing difficulty).

Nearly 60 per cent children in Lalitpur district of Uttar Pradesh are malnourished. In the last 9 months, in Talbahat block alone, 183 cases were reported, out of which 116 were categorized as "severe".

Local doctors say the biggest challenge is convincing parents that their children are undernourished.

"Pata hi nai hai unko. Yahan aake unko samjhaya jata hai ki bachcha bahut hi zyada weak hai. apko yahan treatment dene ki zaroorat hai. admit kijiye, bahut convince karke unhen yahan admit karna padta hai (They don't even realise there's something wrong. We have to tell them their child is weak and needs treatment. It takes a lot of convincing for them to realise this),"says nutrition counsellor, Community Health Centre, Shilpi Sahariya.

Very often, there are no medical facilities. Primary health centres in many places are understaffed and almost non-functional.

Says Dr Sanjeev Kumar of Primary Health Centre (Hingora), "PHC mein rehne ke liye doctors ko staff milna chahiye, ward boy hona chahiye, sweeper hona chahiye, nurses honi chahiye kuch bhi nahin hain. final toh patient ko hi face karna hoga (We need doctors, sweepers, nurses and ward boys to run a PHC. There's nothing here. Ultimately the patient has to suffer.)"
Abject poverty, lack of basic health care facilities and poor health of rural women are all killing India's underpriviledged, malnourished children. The country has consistently has let down children like Shamim and today malnutrition rates in India are even worse than Sub Saharan Africa.

Source: http://www.countercurrents.org/bhandari290308.htm
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Friends like these...

Hoodbhoy quotes N.Koreas prison population as a measure of its "failure". This scribe has done some comparison and found out that over 1% of US population is in jail among which 10% of blacks are in jail whereas in Korea less than 0.8% population is in jail. So is this really a yardstick?

Re: # 98 You may be right but keep in mind illusions are more powerful than truth. good day.

Re: # 77 Posted by hamidm2 on May 30, 2009 6:14:51 am

Hamid mian,

[..... i am having having a barbeque today to celebrate the bomb - ]

Yikes...enuf with your celebration. While you were celebrating, this site has been inundated with unreasonable posts.

come and defend your feudal/tribal system. Riaz Haq sahib is just playing to the peanut gallery of chowk. He is trying to be on all corners of the political/economic landscape of pakiland, without knowing much about anything.

There are many incongruent posts from him, which only you can decipher, by setting him free of his ramblings.

Riaz Haq sahib, wants free western aid money for pakiland, and then he wants to get rid of feudal/tribal system that has always encouraged paki land owning class.

My paki friends tell me that pakiland was created for the landowning class. What sort of sanctimonious hypocrisy is being circulating amongst pakis' unwashed masses these days? and frankly by whom?

....... if we didn't have the atom bomb can you imagine how the horrible hindoo hyenas would be behaving on chowk? ..... thank god we did something right

Khyber: Thanks for the link. I enjoyed reading the article. I liked the part where it says that the Pakistanis are finally focussing on the taliban who are attacking them as the enemy - rather than pointing fingers at other countries.

Re: # 125charleswrightmills ...Did I say something wrong,I was requesting liberal,educated,open minded, progressive Pakistanis to unite and support military action against lunatics,criminal thug Taliban and raise their voice against religious fanaticism,if thats wrong then I need your wise advice.
http://pukhtunkhwatimes.blogspot.com/

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http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article6396015.ece
........... ................................................................................ .........................
http://pukhtunkhwatimes.blogspot.com/

tahmed32...I WILL READ THIS ARTICLE LATER BUT here is a link and I think we Pakistanis should do same on CHOWK.....
From The Sunday Times
May 31, 2009
Facebook Pakistanis unite against terror
Alarmed by the growing Islamist menace, ordinary people are rising up against the Taliban..........URL...
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article6396015.ece
http://pukhtunkhwatimes.blogspot.com/

Madani saheb,

have you been taking your medicine regularly or not?


regards,

Re: # 115

[the butchers of poor Bengalis in 1971]

It will be difficult to locate the culprits because their names are tabulated in the Hamidur Rahman report which is deeply buried inside the innermost recesses of the rectum of RiazHaq and other supper-supper-patriotic "Pakistani" ex-patriates. Those are exceptionally deep recesses!

Mr masadi is very proud of his last statement

Even the Taliban wont be able to save the American elite this time the pristine truth!

Mr. Masadi would like to respond to nexusa's rant about the West's forbearance:

Agent Nexusa writes in #36 "Lest there be any chest thumping given this reality, beware that forebearance has limit."

I know you agent thugs are spelling challenged but the forbearance is on the part of the third world countries and specifically Pakistan in whose affairs the American thugs have been interfering ever since the cold war heated up with Pakistan Army support. That tipping point of the Pakistanis tolerating the US sponsored military was crossed in 2007 and now you all are working hard at repairing that image so that you can impose the Army on us for some more years- that my enemy aint gonna happen. Your system is collapsing all around you, even the messiah wont be able to save you, the people in West are waking up to the barbarism under which their lives are conducted and realizing what the people of the third world knew all along: this divide and rule BS is there to mask the class conflict that affects East and West alike, the reactionaries among the elite have noted this trend and that was the prime reason for them to instally a black man as president. Think hard about this post and see the end of this elite fast approaching....even the Taliban wont be able to save them this time......

An insightful article by Eqbal Ahmed written in 1998.

http://pakteahouse.wordpress.com/2009/05/29/after-strategic-depth-remem bering-eqbal-ahmad/#more-4213

An insightful article by Eqbal Ahmed written in 1998.

http://pakteahouse.wordpress.com/2009/05/29/after-strategic-depth-remem bering-eqbal-ahmad/#more-4213

Mr masadi would like to add the following

Alumni WW writes "Show some sensitivity"

I will once the 40,000+ that die of want every single day in this world of want and poverty stop dying, then and only then will I show sensitivity towards the maintainers of systems. Till then those sobs that maintain this setup and the Pakistan Army is one of them in our country at least,their dead will receive absolutely no sympathy from me. How is it that when one of your own perishes all hell breaks loose while when tens of thousands of others perish no one bats an eye to think about how or why that occurs...hypocrites I don't cry for you.....

Re: # 112

Modi is not the only one. 1984 Sikh murderers escaped too. And how about gang of Pakistani politicians/generals, the butchers of poor Bengalis in 1971?

Pervez Hoodbhoy, it is clear that you don’t have an easy task ahead of you. I am sure Pakistan is full of numbskulls like several individuals here who are clearly lacking a bit in the intellect department and, if one had to categorize, would be categorized as absolute hypocrites, because they park their fat asses on greener pastures and claim to be a Pakistani patriot from afar – then constantly offer shabbashi – ja chadh ja betta, sooley pe! Pathetic!

Re: # 94
Arif Sahib, Let me just set the record straight about your comment "we all remember your logic and theory that these Taliban were going to eradicate feudalism in Pakistan. "

Yes, I did post an ilog on this. I abhor Pakistan's feudal/tribal system as much as the crazy Taliban. Both terribly degrade human beings. Here's how I concluded the post:

The end of the feudal system will be a welcome change in Pakistan. It will be unfortunate, however, if the repression of the people by the feudal/tribal elite is simply replaced by their religious persecution by the narrow-minded and intolerant Taliban in Pakistan. I just hope it's not too late to change the course of events in Pakistan.

Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 82
Regarding Modi representing India, let me just point out that, in spite being the mastermind of the 2002 pogrom in Gujarat, he and his murderous cronies continue to be in charge of the state while tens of thousands of survivors languish in refugee camps. Most of the culprits have escaped justice. This is a terrible indictment of India's democracy and society as a whole.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 108

Akbar:

I arrived at similar conclusion from a different perspective which needs to Google, just being Pakistani will do, for the reason I mentioned.

Re: # 105
masadi, you are such a curmudgeon. Show some sensitivity and stop going reflexively after everything and everyone that moves on Chowk. It'll help you regain some credibility here and you might even gain a new perspective and self-respect in the process.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 103
rf786,
Fighting bloody insurgencies is never easy. It took Sri Lankans 25 long years of blood, sweat and tears to vanquish the LTTE terrorists and put an end to their reign of terror. Pakistan army has just begun. Let's support Pak jawans, withhold judgment, and give them a chance as they fight to save the nation from the dark vision the Talibs wish to impose.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re#101 Anil
The North Korean example is good only for North Korea. And even then, the writer has based his entire "reasoning" on popular propagandas rather than facts. Had he googled a little, his viewpoint would have been different. His comparison of Pakistan with North Korea shows his lack of indepth knowledge and ability of analyse. That is why, I had commented earlier, that this aging pseudo-analyst is losing his ability to think above a high-school mentality.

Re: # 102

Masadiji - You trash at least 95% of Pakistanis in your interacts for one reason or the other.

For a moment lets assume that you are correct in your reasoning of Pakistan's ills and all those who disagree with you are incorrect. Inspite of your arguments, I have not seen even one of them come around and agree to your pov ever. This could mean your method and/or way you communicate that message need to be changed. If you are really serious about changing the mindset of people you will think about this. Added benefit of changing the way you communicate your message would be that the Chowk staff will stop detaining you illegally.

Re: # 101

Akbar:

You made my point. His example of N. Korea is part of his reasoning.

#103 old shit about worthy and unworthy victims, what makes those soldiers worthy and those they have killed or those that die every day due to want unworthy. Mere propaganda

#103 as you remember the slain soldiers much like America remembers their Iraq war dead while glossing over the Iraqis, don't forget how this army has royally screwed Pakistan and turned a blind eye to the tens of thousands of young children that die here every single week due to malnutrition and health issues that are perpetuated directly because of what the Army did to our civil institutions. These crocodile tears are worthless, cry over those civilians the US drones have been killing with the blessings of this military or the misery of the millions displaced in this USELESS operation.

Re: # 99

Riaz Sahib

Thank you for the kind and comforting words, soldiers die young but we must always remember them for they offer the most noble gift of all, their lives.

Please do not take my criticism or that of others as unwarranted, for we all can preach to the converted but that helps no one, we must accept reality no matter how bitter the truth. War against the Taliban is being projected as a success story, I pray and hope that it is true, but we have been on this path many a time before, I fear for the day when another truce is announced or some compromise is reached and we continue to meander on the same path of self-destruction and all those soldiers will die for nothing. So please excuse me for being a skeptic, I would rather be proven wrong than being correct.

Thanks and regards

Arif

Charles wright mills would like to inform everyone that Mr. Madani is a troll, a full time fake. Consider the words he uses with the broken up feigned English, in fact what he is doing (even though he supports my pov that still doesn't absolve him of the deception) is using a perverted stereotype of our people and reproducing that in order to poke fun at them:

Consider these words he used in #48: "diminishing exponentially ", "displaced surgically", "battle lines are being drawn", "One has to be paranoid to survive", "Mohajirs have no srategic depth:, "screwed royally" etc... so whereas he tries to hide his deception amidst broken up English with which he is poking fun at all Pakistanis, he uses these high strung terms that expose his a$$.

Re100 Anil
Lengthy reasoning...lengthy reasoning....!
I don't see ANY reasoning in this whole article.

Pervaiz Hoodbhoy:

On this issue, you are a lone voice and very different vision for your country Pakistan. Your lenghty reasoning is of no consequence for the following reason:

1. Possible of an action against India creates an unprecented unity in Pakistan. Economy or not. It does not even count if the action against India due to perceived threat real or unreal.

2. Nuclear weapon is perceived as a magic wand. Right or wrong, rational or irrational none of these count. You are someone with a tooti in nakkarkhana, nothing else. It hurts your credibility.

3. Nuclear weapon is an emotional glue, and a reason to be proud Pakistani, whether this weaponse gives hope or not. The same persons who will quote Stephen Cohen & co. chapter and verse, are prompt to point what is wrong with reasoning of these experts when it comes to thie emotional glue.

Today, as I see, Pakistani is psyche shrouded in the fog of mental depression. It is not unheard of people under such condition to search for a ray of hope. Like to a depressive maniac, any hope gives an instant high, and soon it fades into depressive moods. A change does the same and gives high to Pakistan, be that change is a coup of Musharraf on one hand to throwing out of chief justice to fair elections.

Your lengthy reasoning in such depressive fog is completely non-productive. Reasonable Pakistanis, Chowk is my only barometer, are thrilled to relish their early morning delights from sights of Mumbai railroad so that they can avoid discussing real dangers and issues. Many give their reason to be Indian right wing nut cases come here and trash their good news about Pakistan. This in their psyche is a perfectly sane response, as they see everything in Indian context. To them trashing by Indian right wing nut cases is more important to counter first than highlighting good news about their own country.

Why? I do not have an answer, neither do these smart Pakistanis who come here to frequent here.

Your treatment of writing your essay on the anniversary of one of the most signifacnt historic event in Pakistan is foolish, if I may say so. You need to diagnose the systemic causes of this prolonged fog of depression, and do not touch this Nuclear toy. There are many in the world who are trying to take care of it, without destroying the country that is Pakistan.

You efforts would serve Pakistan better if you focus on helping treat this depression, rather than point to the only toy Pakistan has.

This is this outsider's view.

Re: # 94

I am glad to hear you support the current military ops against Talibs. I am sorry to hear about your personal loss. Please accept my heartfelt condolences on the shaheed soldier in your family. May his soul rest in eternal peace.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

#48 ahmedmadani

Those displaced people are not Talebans so stop your propaganda, nobody buys it except the ethnic bigots of MQM.

The number of IDPs entering into Karachi is very low and most of them will anyway die of cholera in that filthy city, the rest can be easily killed in few ethnic riots. So don't lose your sleep over trivial matter, the demography of your precious Karachi is not changing.

And I do agree with people like #66 and #69, we do need more people like you. The more people we have like you the sooner we can get rid of this banana republic.

Re: # 92

Living in Pakistan does not make you or Hoodbhoy any more patriotic, or me and others, living abroad, any less patriotic. Pakistani living abroad contributed $7b to Pakistan's economy last year.

I am a personal fan of Hoodbhoy and I invited him to speak to a large gathering of the "Alumni" you deride. To me, he is a Cassandra that Pakistan needs and I am glad he is allowed to express himself freely in Pakistan, in spite of being on Pakistani government payroll. But he is not always right.

I just don't agree with him on his stand as spelled out in this article.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 88
malikrashid,
You ask "Could you please explain how Parvez Hoodbhoy is playing to the cheering crowds across the border?"

Just read the interacts from Indians on this Chowk article and it should be obvious to you. Most Indians would like nothing better than a weak Pakistan, unable to defend itself, so Indian can dictate terms to it and become an unquestioned hegemon in the neighborhood.

Do not doubt, even for a moment, the imperialist ambitions of Indians who constantly suffer from "Israel envy" (as described by Sashi Tharoor in the interact I posted here earlier) and "do a Lebanon" or "do a Gaza" to Pakistan. The only thing that is stopping them is Pakistan's ability to mount a "swift response" as Tharoor also says.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 93

Thank you sir for the kind words, and lets hope for the best.

Regards

Arif

Re: # 92

Dear Riaz Sahib

Not to forget, I fully support the Pakistan army in their operation against these barbarians called Talibs, for your kind information, we as a family have suffered personal loss when a a very dear and loved one while serving the Pak army was martyred in the line of duty. So please spare us your high strung suggestions, we all remember your logic and theory that these Taliban were going to eradicate feudalism in Pakistan.

Re: # 92

rf786,

This is probably one of the best rebuttals I have seen on Chowk.

All the best to you and your likes in Pakistan in making it a more moderate country.

Re: # 78

Dear Mr. Riaz

"Your harsh criticism is neither timely nor appropriate.
You are falling for the ongoing vicious propaganda against Pakistan that paints the entire nation in extreme colors for the actions of a few."

When it comes to the states collusion with religious right, I have always been critical of the state, in good time and bad times. What is happening now is the unfortunate outcome of constant neglect and complicity, had sane voices such as those of late Eqbal Ahmed and P Hoodbhoy been heard things could have been different, but that was not to be for we were blinded by our religious arrogance.

"And playing to the cheering crowds, as is Hoodbhoy, from across the border."

What do you mean cheering crowds? Dr P Hoodbhoy unlike many "Alumni" continues to live and work out of Pakistan, as per your definition PH is playing to the Pakistani crowds, then kudos to him.

"If you can not verbally or actively support the current efforts to defeat the extremists in Pakistan, the least you can do is to stop damning Pakistan and its military and government by your unwarranted commentary. "

I suggest you take off those blinkers of propaganda and face the reality, state of Pakistan or "Establishment" read as the same are responsible for this chaos, had they been not blinded by their 'strategic depth' and 'strategic assets' the poor Pakistani nation in particular the 2.5 million IDP's would have been spared this inconvenience.

Best Regards

Arif: Pakistani Passport holder and citizen of Karachi, Pakistan.

#89

Pakistan hater, Hindu fanatic,

Hoodbhoy writes:

"Pakistan’s security problems cannot be solved by better weapons."

I am glad to see that the drivel of amrika's paltoo foot soldiers has descended down to this level; it doesn't even warrant a reply. But the point that I am trying to make here is that that the Western crusaders fears are not based on a perceived possibility that Taliban or alkaida could get hold of nuclear weapons, but their main fear is that this country (Pak) is occupied by a corrupt ruling elite and the fouj mafia has become an entity that is beyond any law of the land. The evil nexus between corrupt pro-western ruling elite and their strong-arm the fouj has come to this level that they would take money from foreign powers to kill their own citizens-kidnapp them or torture them. Thousands of pakistanis have "disappeared"; 10s of thousands killed in cold blood, and millions have beome refugees in their own country. Any one with a sane mind would fear such lawless and reckless mercenaries who have no regard for law or simple human decency.

People like hoodbhoy cannot say this openly because his master's interest curerently lies with supporting these mercenaries. And hence the drivel...

When India exploded a nuclear bomb in 1998, I had thought that it was a foolish policy decision. It did not add to India's security vis-a-vis Pakistan and it made her a pariah in the arena of international public opinion. Very few people may remember that before India exploded the bomb, Pakistan was in the doghouse of the world public opinion because of the reports of militant madrassas started by Mulla Umar and their role in the talebanisation of Afghanistan. By exploding the bomb, India shifted the spotlight on herself, at least until Nawaz Sharif responded resoundingly to India's explosion.

I thought that Pakistan's response was also ill-advised. The US was willing to give Pakistan a blank check for not responding to India's test and its restraint at that time would have earned it tremendous goodwill against India and put a lot of pressure on India. It did not guarantee any additional security against India as Indians had known about the Pakistani bomb long before then and its unacknowledged presence had already prevented India from launching Operation Brasstack during Rajiv Gandhi's time when the US ambassador to India told Rajiv about the likely response from Pakistan.

So, how do things look now? I was wrong about India. The test did give Indians a tremendous boost in self-confidence and played the role of those "intangibles" that social scientists love to mention but find it hard to quantify. India until then was virtually ignored by most countries, especially the US, but the Test made the US sit up and take notice; there was a recognition that part of the reason the Indians exploded the bomb was because they had been ignored in the world as inconsequential. If Indians have gained more importance in international relations in recent years, it is partly due to the "bomb".

The case of Pakistan is more complex as Prof. Hoodbhoy's articles points out. It is generally claimed that India would have reacted more strongly to Kargil, Mumbai or Parliament attacks in the absence of nuclear deterrent. This is only partly true: one, the deterrence would have been there even if Chagi explosions had not taken place, as was shown at the time of General Sunderrajan's operation brasstacks; secondly, they proved no deterrent during Kargil as Indians were quite prepared to escalate, which was prevented only by Nawaz Sharif going to Washington.

On the other hand, the negative consequences of the bombs far outweigh any positive outcomes. It allowed Pakistani generals to embark upon adventurism, such as "death by thousand cuts" and sponsoring jihadis and their infrastructure, with the result that Pakistan is now considered to be the epicenter of Jihad and its bombs as a potential threat to the world. This feeling was exacerbated by the export of nuclear technology by Dr. A. Q. Khan, who is almost universally believed to have done so with the full knowledge, if not the support, of Pakistani army establishment. The "bomb" has truly become an albatross around the Pakistani neck.

Re#78
Mr. Riaz Haq
Could you please explain how Parvez Hoodbhoy is playing to the cheering crowds across the border?
True, stereo-typing is statistically wrong.
This is not the first time that Pakistan army has conducted an operation against Taliban. Strike and truce, accomodating and bombing, the hypocrisy of Pakistan establishment(Army) is an obvious weakness that invites criticism. It would be wrong to assume that the present fight against Taliban could resurrect Pakistan army in the eyes of Pakistani people. The treachery committed by the military rulers in building the army and ISI at the cost of starving citizens, eliminating democracy from society and governance, promoting harassing bullying political culture, promoting ethnic and sectarian hatred, nurturing religious extremism and complete disregsrd for the citizenry that feeds them with thir hard-earned labour, will always be called for what it is. Sensitivity and pride of some might be wounded but education should provide a mind with flexibility to look beyond allegiance, patriarchal bonds and financial interest.

Re: # 71

Dear Bubba Sahib

thanks for the kind words

#76 Posted by RiazHaq on May 30, 2009 6:10:37 am Re: # 73:
“scare politicians in Washington into giving them more money?�
“You think the politicians in Washington are stupid? Do you think they got to the Hill by being foolish and ignorant?�

Riaz sahib it has nothing to do with the American politicians dumb, clever or smart.

Nukes are not merely weapons to be kept under lock and key, they start a political game too. Like the Russian nuke explosion in 1948 changed the dynamics of the international politics after the Second World War, the Pak nukes too have a similar impact in the area. Not as significant as the Russian explosion in 1948 but as far as the area and the Middle East is concerned, these nukes bring in some new dimensions to political games that are played in the area by many international powers.

It may not be apparent to you that the more the US talks up the Pakistani nukes, the more intense the groups like Taliban become. Like Pakistan plays the nuke game on many internal political issues, the US plays the Pakistan nukes, Iran nukes card to sell it hugely unpopular policies to the Americans. A major reason for Israel’s undue influence on US policies is not that US is morally committed with Israel, but it is fearful the Israelis would use the bombs to deal with the hostile states in the Middle East. Israelis have many a time shown as to how irresponsible they are with their manifestly hostile intend to bomb Iran.

Coming back to Pakistani Nukes, there is no doubt that the nukes card has been used by the US to continue its aggression in Afghanistan. The spectrum of nukes falling in the extremist hands has also been used to provide more financial assistance, especially the military assistance to Pakistan.

Indians have used its nuke arsenal to secure a deal with the US, which is still on paper but will be activated when there is a stable government in India.
I do not have time right now but sure would look forward to your response.

A word about this article by PH. Doctor Sahib very conveniently forgets that the nuke race in the area was started by India in 1974. I don’t see anything on record from Doctor Sahib that shows he opposed the Indian position on Nukes from 1974 to 1998, a long span of 25 years. We did not see any protest by him to show to India that it has placed the area in a precarious position by initiating the militarized version of the nuke technology.

#81 Posted by tahmed32

You have just confirmed that the evil of the caste system is part of the hindu religion. "

Sorry you are not capable of understanding the philosophy of Lord Krishna. The 'varna' (so called caste) was decided entirely on the basis of the qualities of the child and was decided in the Gurukul. It was not ordained that a shudra's son was to be a shudra or brahmin's child was to be a brahmin. The caste system degraded into what you think about owing to the selfishness of the human being of wanting his son to be what he was, like a politician always grooms his son to be a politician and a doctor always wants his son to be a doctor.

You may not understand it hence please stay away from that.