Obama’s Courtship of the Muslim World

Majumdarda,

...dictatorship, the most favoured form of government as per you

That's not entirely correct, actually. Riaz mian only likes some dictators (he uses the word flavours). He likes Mushy but doesn't like Zia and Yahya.

But he is very consistent in his condemnation of democracy supporters like lawyers in Pakistan and wannabe democratic leaders like Benazir Bhutto. I have to give him that.

Riaz you have finally unravelled yourself....when even the likes of Tahmed32 are on your case (and Majumdar (may a piece of the goddess be upon him) to a certain extent)....forget intellectuals like MASADI...

It was fun while it lasted....but carry on (T)

Riaz Haq sahib,

India is poor not becuase it is a democracy but becuase it is badly governed and had more importantly had lousy economic policies for almost half a century. Neither of these are inevitable consequences of democracy.

In one of your posts you have rightly observed that the only place which exceeds India in poverty is sub-Saharan Africa, maybe you have missed observing that most of sub-Saharan Africa has been a dictatorship, the most favoured form of government as per you. You can throw in North Korea into the list as well. And as Tahmed sahib points out that democratic India has fared no worse than Pakistan under dictatorship and may I remind you that India's course correction that began in 1991 was masterminded by democrats who realised their past mistakes and have tried to rectify some of these.

But I have a suspicion that all this is really irrelevant and your real objection to democracy is your opposition to one man one vote (which even the lowly Hindoo has had no problem in accepting) and possibly your belief that some people have a God gifted superiority over others (something that many of us Hindoos will sympathise with you over)

Regards

Riaz sahib: you better use your talent for making absurd claims, ignoring facts that would cause you to back off from these absurd claims, with the indians on chowk who are just as talented as you are in this department. and in fact the indians are a step ahead of you, because they are good at abusing and namecalling at the same time that they make their absurd claims.

such talents are unfortunately wasted on ordinary ahmeds like me. so, have a good night. and say hello to Commando Musharraf if you see him somewhere, wearing sneakers (in case the "unwashed masses" get wise to him and start chasing im) and carring an airline ticket (so he can run all the way to the airport to catch the next flight out of Pakistan and straight to his homes in the UK and US that he has made from his army officers salary).

Re: # 121
That's what democracy in South Asia is all about. Criminals and thugs dominate the political landscape in both India and Pakistan. And they keep getting re-elected by their people who don't know any better.

Politics is often family business in South Asia. When one member of the family faces the ax after years of slow-moving justice, another member of the same family steps in. So the power stays within the powerful families.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

I have observed, how local body elections (village level), empowered people and brought development at the doorstep of locality level. Each and every decision to erect deep tubewell or bricked road have to be taken properly. Entire, requirement study to ensuring quality of work; each phase of every project was monitored by the local people and that ensures that, rampant corruption, and you are out of power within next 5 years...
Now, those who talks about caste based politics in south and cow belt; a vast segment of people in those states, never enjoyed political and social power. Caste based politics provided them to represnt their voice upto highest level. Those who oppose Mandal Commission or Reservation for SC/ST etc.., they should mind that, if the society would have taken care of them, Govt. need not have to force such action. The better model should have been, to provide localised care i.e. the local body should take care of disadvantaged people....
Now, once the SC/ST and OBC people started enjoying power in Bihar and UP, they are now looking for next goal...Better infrastructure and governance...Success of Nitish Kumar is living example of how, society of Bihar is shifting from political empowerment to economic empowerment....

As per "indian middle class" supporting dictatorship; this is complete bogus.Indira Gandhi has shown all of us, how a bad dictator can be to a country like India...you can like it for couple of months for a change....

Now, for these Paki muslas, who grew up as pseudo arabs, their behavior is more of tribal/gang based society rather than civilised one. So, they generaly prefers Generals, Warlords, Gangsters...those who emulate Muhammed....And these people like Musarraf, Mobarak etc... actualy represent a piece of Mo to them....
Furthermore,when they land up in USA, a well developed society, they fail to make out, how democracy in earlied days of USA helped it to bring in current form....USA used democracy to develop society not the other way round ( economic development brought democracy to USA)

Re: # 123
Instead of closing your eyes to reality, just count how many members of ruling party and the National Assembly are feudals. Start with Zardari and all the Makhdooms (no Khadims) and go down the list.

In rural Sind and rural Punjab, almost all of the candidates usually come from the big feudal families. That was also true of the last election. The end result is total domination of Pak politics by a few powerful landowning families in Punjab and Sind.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Goldfinger #124 as that little old french lady who taught us french before the work day started would say...exactement!!

Re: # 122

tahmed,

how can democracy be the worst form of government if the alternatives are even more worse?

Riaz sahib #120 like i said - you have this unfortunate tendancy to make up facts to suit your emotions. the latest "fact" you made up being that pakistanis are some kind of slaves to feudals. when the reality is that the vast majority of pakistanis are not beholden to any landlord. and even if they are beholden to some big shot - that is why all democratic nations including pakistan have the secret ballot.

Goldfinger #119 democracy is indeed the worst form of government..except for all the alternatives. not just in pakistan, but in UK (where it was i think churchill who noted the previous statement) and around the world.

Re: # 120

Riaz,

that is what I'm trying to say...plus the politicians who have already been tried and have been proved criminals of the masses for their loot and plunder of national assets need to be debarred from future participation in politics...how do they keep coming up again and again so strongly?

Re: # 111
Goldfinger,
The "unwashed masses" living under a feudal system have no choice but to vote for their landlords. It is part of a patron-client society where all the power resides in the patrons. What industrialization does is change this relationship and gives more choices and power to the workers to choose for themselves who they want to work for or choose as leaders/rulers.

What the feudal have deliberately blocked is that very change that would empower their serfs.

On Pakistan's feudal democracy, here's what Dalrymple wrote about two years ago:

Democracy has never thrived here, at least in part because landowning remains almost the only social base from which politicians can emerge. In general, the educated middle class - which in India seized control in 1947, emasculating the power of its landowners - is in Pakistan still largely excluded from the political process. As a result, in many of the more backward parts of Pakistan the local feudal zamindar can expect his people to vote for his chosen candidate. Such loyalty can be enforced. Many of the biggest zamindars have private prisons and most have private armies.

In such an environment, politicians tend to come to power more through deals done within Pakistan's small elite than through the will of the people. Behind Pakistan's swings between military governments and democracy lies a surprising continuity of interests: to some extent, the industrial, military, landowning and bureaucratic elites are now all related and look after one another. The current rumours of secret negotiations going on between Musharraf and Benazir Bhutto, the exiled former prime minister, are typical of the way that the civil and military elites have shared power with relatively little recourse to the electorate.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 115

tahmed,

don't get me wrong...I'm not against democracy...however not the shame kind of democracy...as for all the events that you have enumerated...they each have an other side to the picture as well...the underlying tugs and pulls of sundry powerful figures in the political or military hierarchy...so each event is still the product basically of the same oligarchical system that pervades Pakistan.

#117 Goldfinger: It is presumptuous of you to imply that the dictator (or even the "elite") know better than the dictator what is good for them. People may be poor, they may be illiterate, but they are not stupid.

And so - no one is pulling democracy by the nostrils to them. The people of Pakistan snatched democracy for themselves - over Musharraf's worst dirty tricks. And while some unfortunate souls may be under feudal masters - the vast majority are free. And they didnt seek the permission of the feudal landlords to take to the streets against Musharraf until they had reduced him to a snivelling little twit begging his ex-prisoner Zardari to just permit him to continue to have the pomp of President even if the power was gone.

Re: # 112

tahmed...the point is that democracy is not a horse or a donkey that you can pull by the nostrils and hoist upon a certain seat and everything would suddenly be all hunky dory...its just that the people must know what is right or wrong for them...democracy is not that you merely vote because your feudal masters tell you to vote or else.