Hindu Mathematics – How Original Was It?

In 498 CE, Indian mathematician and astronomer Aryabhata stated that "Sthanam sthanam dasa gunam" or place to place in ten times in value, which may be the origin of the modern decimal-based place value notation.


The oldest known text to use a decimal place-value system, including a zero, is the Jain text from India entitled the Lokavibhaga, dated 458 CE. This text uses Sanskrit numeral words for the digits, with words such as the Sanskrit word for void for zero. The first known use of special glyphs for the decimal digits that includes the indubitable appearance of a symbol for the digit zero, a small circle, appears on a stone inscription found at the Chaturbhuja Temple at Gwalior in India, dated 876 CE.

There are many documents on copper plates, with the same small o in them, dated back as far as the sixth century CE, but their authenticity may be doubted.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/0_(number)

http://www.timelineindex. com/content/view/1452

Zero invented in China ? :) I don't even want to read the book if it's as ridiculous as that.. The decimal method of counting with zeros is inherent to Indian philosophical tradition, going back to the Samkhya system (which means enumeration). It is written all over Indian culture and tradition. Arguing against is kinda silly, because there's really no substance.

http://the-redpill.blogspot.com/2006/09/c-o-u-n-t-i-n-g-w-i-t-h-z-e-r-o-e-s. html

One of the best champions of Indian mathematics, cosmology and philosophy was Al Biruni, who studied most closely Sanskrit scriptures. Earlier to him was Pythagoras, who for all practical purposes was a follower of Vedic Brahmin religion.

Re: # 277
A very big lie, perpetuated by the Islamic Media and lapped up hungrily by the Dhimmi Western Media

Re: # 293
after the first para of the above, i'd like to quote this:
"But, all said and done, mathematics is mathematics. The bottom line is that a quadratic equation solved by whoever and by whatever means has to give exactly the same solutions. "

the far eastern neighbor of India,certainly seems to have the edge as far as the ancient story of maths goes.the former may very well be more ancient, according to the statement in your article.someone or the other is always vying for something.
another thing which equalizes any imbalance forseeable, in maths versus the people who use it is ;
the other day i was reading online comments by IT professionals.they did not belong to pakistan.i gathered,that when it was new, there were many people pouring into the field, and found it lucrative.but now the same people who are senior and very experienced find that when their contract ended, it was not renewed.they had the experience but were not getting jobs in their field because of age.coming to the present day, fresh graduates in the field of IT are not given jobs because of lack of experience and real world training.the object of their envy are immigrants, with IT qualifications who work for less remuneration.also outsourcing giants like India, which seems to have suffered little setback owing to its giant scam, also seems to be the source of envy.one of the senior IT onliner remarked, that IT should not be taught as an exclusive course in an IT teaching institution anymore.he suggested a combined degree. i cannot picture what this means.but i got an idea and liked it, that it must be taught at different levels; from school to college to university with other subjects.especially medical colleges and universities.where different packages would be available depending on the duration, short courses, long, and full fledged ones where you could get a bs or msc or PhD in it.also all those medical students studying the subject of IT, could take up research, and software designing and production according to the medical needs at the industrial level, medical interpersonal level, at adminstrative, at equipment, LAB investigativelevels, at staff, patients, student, and teachers level.
another point raised by the foreign ‘onliner was-the level of IT teaching.i understood that he meant 2 levels, already exist, according to the types of students.one is the short, familiarisation level where the students only want to know about computer/internet basic, mostly the software and applications part, so that they can rush and get up to their social networks and stick there.mostly chatting or may be making up for their absence at school, by taking missed notes or doing online homework.and the other level is the advanced level, where the brilliant ones in the IT field are left after the scum has spilled over to limn the internet with its twitter/chatter.these young people can really take to the advanced IT.in hi school, colleges and universities and go in for hi IT research innovations and developments and products used for their own professional subjects which degree courses they are also pursuing in the same institutions!a doctor a scientist ,engineer, lawyer, banker, artist, innovator, entrepreneur, administrator who is himself an IT expert -is indeed Master of all he surveys!

would like to suggest a good reading if anyone can find it online,

Islam & Science - Religious orthodoxy and battle for rationality -

by:

Prof. Pervez Amirali Hoodbhoy

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#286

Now your bravery matches the glorius "Tiger" Niazi who used 155mm artillary against defenseless students in Dhaka University and did got his butt handed to him on a plate.

The Indian Army had to "Protect" him from his own people after his surrender.

Re: # 286 GF
[...you sound like a truly brave warrior...]

Thanks man, you are too... you are the bravest of them all - who else can claim with straight face that pakis never did ethnic killing... LOL

#268 Posted by bulleya on

Bulleya, India was called Aryavrata, though in later times there were distinct mahajanpads in the area now called afganistan, pakistan and northern India (plus middle part of India as well). Area close to delhi is called jambudeep in sanskrit parayer shlokas etc. Even today the same shlokas/mantras are recited during important hindu ceremonies.

The religion was simply called "dharm", which they later started calling snantan dharm


So Hinduism or that "dharm" as a unifying factor predates the idea of India/Bharat/Aryavrata created by any one, whether greeks, persians, arabs or british, or Hindu themselves, but India as a separate almost protected land mass with lots of population predates even the idea of Hinduism/Dharma. It is possible that dravidians are living in India since as long as africans in africa. And most probably Hinduism and its mythology borrows a lot from the old dravidian culture that got mixed with Aryan's culture. It is almost impossible to think of Shiv and Krishn as blue/black God for so called pure white Aryans

Re: # 280, 281

major...you sound like a truly brave warrior...almost as brave as your forebears in the not too distant a past when they fought just as bravely against the Chinese in 1962...when just someone calling out "Chinese!" was enough to induce sprints away from the field of battle which could create record times in the Olympic games (otherwise people being too stunted to do so in real Olympics)...condoning acts of violence and brutality against a section of hapless civilians of your own country...how great indeed this Shining India must be to live in! Where otherwise hunger, poverty, starvation are rampant...

Sanskrit mathematical shlokas remind me of :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RNC-aj76zI4

another petty rant by the thieves -


Plate pissers, who haven't made a single contribution to civilized world, and stole and copied everything from others, including their rituals from the Jews; they are horrified and petty to admit others' achievements.

Yes, the mughals are called great, but the contributors to the greatness were the conquered and the converted.......same goes for the Central Asian empires.

A modern example is Dubai - it is a great place (relatively speaking) but its greatness is from the contributions of foreigners.

#279

Dude, I find your naiivete absolutely astounding. Let us see, your point is that India influenced the Bengalis to revolt against you Pakis and so it is all -- ok ok 50% --Inida's fault.

If your treatment of Bengalis left them vulnerable to be manipulated, whose fault is that? If you are not ready to acknowledge that, then you have no hope. The Bengalis first took the election route to make their point and you guys responded by shelling Dhaka university with 155mm artillary.

If you and your ilk have an ounce of shame and self-respect, you will stop obfuscating, deflecting and finding excuses and acknowledge that fact. You do not have a leg to stand on. You impress no one with all this creative spinning. It is a pig dude and no amount of liptick will change the fact.

After you acknowledge that, we can start talking about other stuff.

goldfinger, the hard part for you to understand and
absorb may be, hinjew ab hinjew nahi rahe, they have
imbibed some after interacting with brutal Muslims
military invader and civilian dictator and brutes
like Jinnah, and are dishing out to you guys.
You had monopoly on this for past 1300 years,
no more, good or bad, mostly bad for you guys.

Yaar GF - fighting and whining does not go together... if you want to fight us, don't expect us to be nice to you - we will do bad things to you...

that's how fights usually work... if you are such fighters, let's fight - let the best team win... stop whining...

Re: # 277 GF

and I have told you that's part of the war... you fight us, that's what will happen to you... you stop fighting, things will work out fine for everybody... kind of simple...

Re: # 276

I knew you were going to say this...was this not perpetrated through India's connivance? 50 percent blame to you guys in that civil war...

# 274
Well, then they should not have picked up the guns in 87. There was no army in Kashmir till then and there
would not be once Kashmiris demonstrate civility.

Re: # 275

My point is that you guys are committing horrid brutalities, like rape, murder, torture, and ethnic cleansing...thats all.

Re: # 273
[... don't think any Pakistani leaders (elected or unelected) have ever participated in pogroms committed against any minorities ...]

I guess, a million bengalis killed by pakis was just a frat party?... bengalis are not even the minority, they are actually the majority... and Waht about balochis and mohajirs killed by your "leaders"...

Are you dumb?...

Re: # 274 GF

yeah, whatever... kashmir is injun land and will remain with injuns... kashmiris have problem with that - they can face mecca and start walking towards it...

Or if they want to stay and fight then we give them the fight... so what's your point then?...

Re: # 272

harish...actually the Kashmiris say that they wish to achieve freedom from India because they are fed up of the atrocities being committed against them by the Injun army...may be you and your army call this terrorism but for those who are being brutalised are clearly claiming a fight for freedom from the brutal and oppressive yoke of Indian bigotry. I have come across many Kashmiris scattered around the world who vouch for this fact.

Re: # 271

harish...there we go again...going round and around in circles...I don't think any Pakistani leaders (elected or unelected) have ever participated in pogroms committed against any minorities like those undertaken by elected Indian leaders, with the pleasures and help of the electorates now...do you know of any I might be forgetting?

#269 by Goldfinger

GF yaar, if you read up on the latest reports, there are far more Paki terrorists in Kashmir than there are Kashmiri terrorists. So what does that prove? And if the uprising is indeed indigenous, why are there camps on Paki territory? Why are Paki citizens dying in Kashmir?

#267 by Goldfinger

GF yaar, as I said, you're only seeing what you want to see and conveniently ignoring obvious facts. The fact is that despite teething problems, India's democracy allows a degree of freedom to its minorities that minorities in Pakistan can only dream of. That someone as famous as Dr. Abdus Salam could be discriminated against for his religious beliefs clearly shows what an average Paki minority citizen faces in the country. The systemic discrimination against Ahmadis, the shameful requirement in the Paki passport where Pakis are asked to declare their contempt for the Ahmadi sect points to a deeper malaise that is hard to find elsewhere (perhaps only Arab or African countries fare worse).

I thought it was persians before they became Muslims who coined the
term Hindu since s changes to h in (the then) farsi but may be you are
right, Muslims have invented everything in this world.

Hope you are not stuck still at the name and have gone beyond to
learn about the mathematics itself to meaningfully contribute to
the contents discussions.

Re: # 256

major...why would there be refugees and IDPs, when the local populace hates the Indian army and their shenanigans in Kashmir...they clearly don't trust the injuns...would rather fight them for their freedom than run and leave their homes to a bunch of ruthless goons...some are six fight under the ground pushing up daisies, others have been made to vanish...some kind of beautiful war of freedom you injuns are involved in against civilians of Kashmir!

dost-mittar #: "I however have a slight problem with the title - it's more accurate to call this mathematics Indian rather than hindu. Who knows what faiths Aryabhata or Mahadeva practised, whether they were Buddhists, Jains, Shaivites or atheists?"

actually, india is a 60 year phenomenon, hence it certainly cannot be called indian mathematics......at best, it is a 150 year old phenomenon, starting for the british conquest of delhi.....

....and if you really want to get into facts, then the term hindu and hinduism did not exist historically either......this is acknowledged by indian scholars like nehru.....

hindu is a term used by muslims, when the invaded and moved into south asia, to describe a geographical area.....not a religion.....it is basically an 800 year old term.....

.....hinduism is actually an english word.....hence, there is no way it could have existed prior to the british invading india.......if my research is correct, it is a term used by the british to describe the religion practiced in hind - a name given by muslims to this area.......hence hinduism is a term which originated within the past 200 years or so......

.......what then is the name of the reliigion practiced in south asia......it certainly wasn't called hinduism by the people practicing it.....nor was the region called hind.....

what did the people of this region call the region.......and what did they call their religion(s)......perhaps sanata dharma.....

.....the history of south asia must be amongst the most misunderstood and distored of any area.....

Re: # 254

harish...please reread my previous interacts, particularly #172...thanks.

Re: # 262
VRV...
There is/was no...
The muslas there were ganging up for long time and in opportunate moment, they attacked the Pundits and looted their property etc...
Not, a single property, owned by Pundits, is now un-occupied...You should not blame Pakistanis for this action....

Re: # 259
VRV...
This is almost a myth created by GoI...
The local muslas are far more notorious than anyone else. They need to sacrifice more of their daughters, wives and sons (at least 8 times the number of Pundit victims) to be paid back...If you have invested 100RS in 1989, you would have got 800RS, now...So, they should receive the interest of their share of attrocities as well..
I have heard the real account about the kashmiri muslas from an ex-student of R E C(now NIT), Shrinagar...
He told me that, these kashmiri muslas behave like ordinary humans upto Banihal tunnel. Once you cross it, you will be in mini-pakistan/jihadi environment. Entire tourism money is funneled to fuel terrorism. There is no bigger scoundrel on earth than Kashmiri muslas living both in India and UK...

Re: # 244
Kul...
India/Bharat was known to middle east as Hindi/Hind. So, there is no harm in referring to Indian math as Hindu/Hindi math...
and anyhow, after arrival of Islam in India, there was no significant Mathematical contribution from Indian side....( apart from Ramanujan) till now, who is product of Indian system...

Thanks Fouz,

I'm glad you read the whole of #251; so did Chowq Stuffed who stuffed themselves quite nicely with its contents.

Long live the Chowq 'bakri' that chews up readable material.

Aaaaaaaaaa.....bakri.............!!!!!!!!

260, Swapna, If u have actually followed the terrorist incidents live then u'd know what I am saying. There's a sense of the camaraderie btw Pandits & their Muslim counterparts in Kashmir. Pakistan tried to break it and eject Pandits from the Valley.

I saw video footage of Muslims sobbing for the fallen Pandits. They also conducted rituals and carried the dead to funerals.

swapna is right...

VRV - read up on early days of kashmir jihad and systematic campaign against from pundits... pakis joined the party later...

VRV,

That is a myth. Even if they are sentimental, that is because Pandits now do not live there.

This is same as Pakistanis or native villagers of
MM Singh being sentimental when he visits there.
If MM Singh was living there as a Sikh, he would
have been either killed by now or hounded out or converted.

Do not fall for the sentimentality, it is just a facade.

'....those are 250K hindu pandits who have been exterminated from kashmir by muslims of kashmir...'

Major,

The fact is that native Kashmiri Muslims are sentimental abt Kashmiri Hindu pundits but the non-resident ghajis from Pakistan killed & scared Pandits.

That was ethnic cleansing.

Re: # 257

Yep, like arjun says - pakis live in their own alternative world called PakiWorld where muslims are model citizens of the world and everybody else are saitans...

Pakiland and most other muslim nations where bulk of 1.5 billion muslims live are undemocratic and oppressive to their citizens... forget the condition of non-muslim minorities in these countries, there are almost none - muslims themselves can not live in harmony with each other... massacres, bombings, ethnic conflicts are rampant and ongoing...

these people kill each other with abandon... Sunnis kill shias, Turks kill Kurds, Iraqis kill Kurds, Arabs kill africans in darfur.... punjabis in pakiland kill mohajirs, bengalis, balochis and now even pathans...

And yet these pakis come here and cry RR on indian muslims and kashmiris and what not... LOL

major #256, harish_hyd #254

Yes, I do not think this GirlFriend will have any
answers except repeating the same old same old
recycled rr (TM ishtuka)

Re: # 247 GF

you don't have to rattle off five pages of stats and gazzilion of internet links on kashmir to make your point... I asked you before and asked you again, if things are so bad in kashmir - where are the refugees and IDPs?

Actually, there are IDPs - those are 250K hindu pandits who have been exterminated from kashmir by muslims of kashmir... But I didn't see a single line about them in your entire five pages of whining...

Like I said - this is a war, a jihad that has been thrust upon us by muslims and pakis... we didn't start this war but we will finish this - one way or other... We will continue to be restrained as we have been so far... we will take as much caution as possible, as we have done so far... we will take some remedial action wherever possible - prosecuting some offenders in case of unnecessary sexual violence...

But despite all that - it ain't going to be pretty, we promise you that much...

The only interact worth reading was that of tahir #251. Pay attention all of you who are bigots to one another and ye shall learn something from it.

I asked you to show me one instance where a guy, despite his talent, couldn't make it because of his religious beliefs. You have the example of Dr. Abdus Salam, a true talent and an even greater patriot, in Pakistan. I just asked you to point to a similar example in India.

#252 by Goldfinger

I know it I have lived there the past 24 years...although even there perfect inter-racial harmony doesn't exist, but its way better than the Subcontinent...where small minded people hate others who believe differently, look differently or come from a different creed, caste or race...in short in the subcontinent primitiveness abounds.

GF yaar, this is neither about the US nor the subcontinent; this is about how you used a very broad brush to come to a very convenient conclusion. Sure, there are problems galore, but generalizing and stereotyping people you know nothing about (and this applies to people on both sides of the Radcliffe line) is not exactly the right way to understand the problems that ail us or the solutions that will help make things better.

Re: # 250

harish...actually I know what I'm talking about...your example of US is very inappropriate, because US clearly is not Indo-Pak...I know it I have lived there the past 24 years...although even there perfect inter-racial harmony doesn't exist, but its way better than the Subcontinent...where small minded people hate others who believe differently, look differently or come from a different creed, caste or race...in short in the subcontinent primitiveness abounds.

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#249 by Goldfinger

Yaar GF, if that's how you judge things, then anything can happen anywhere. One could even argue that if the Bush administration start the war on terror (seen by most Muslims as a war against them), then it is easily possible that Muslims could be discriminated against in the US. But most Muslims know they're more likely to be treated fairly in the US without prejudice towards their religion than anywhere else, even in the best-administered Muslim countries.

Re: # 248

harish...I'm not telling you that all Hindus are demonic...I'm just saying that everything is not perfect even in India vis a vis your statement that the mistreatment that was doled out to Dr. Salam because of his religious differences with the junta of the time in Pak could never ever happen in India...my response was that if government orchestrated pogroms could be undertaken by elected officials who are still in power in India, everything was possible...just wanted to say that great problems exist even in India which need to be taken care of before many of your country men could sit on their high horse and point fingers at their neighbors...while I say this I know that Pakis bowl is full to the brim with worms of sundry character, and that we too can not point fingers at any one. It is quite stupid for each to say that you have such and such problems when we all miss three of our own fingers pointing at ourserlves. Have a good day.

#172 by Goldfinger

...however since there is such a huge population of the Muslim minority in India it goes to their credit that a very few talented ones do manage to rise to the top...I have heard that during times when political tensions between the stupid ones of indo-Pak rise, people like Dilip Kumar etc are threatened with dire consequences...generally the Muslims, the former rulers of India, now rank even below the so-called lowest castes...and they say they live their lives in sort of fear and try to conform to a sort of politically correct behaviour...thus how many more talented must be going by the wayside?

GF yaar, you're only seeing what you want to see. If Hindus were as demonic as you imply they are, couldn't Hindus have stopped the Muslim population from growing to what it is, either through forced conversions or simply eliminating them (as has happened in Pakistan)? And if indeed Muslims are so oppressed as you think they are, wouldn't they have resorted to taking up arms against the state as has happened in several countries where Muslims are a far smaller minority than they are in India?

Yes, Muslims are threatened by Hindu rioters when violence occurs, but believe me, I live in Hyderabad, one of the most communally sensitive cities in India and I've seen several Hindu families who shift base to calmer areas when violence occurs because they were threatened by Muslim rioters, so its not as one sided as you seem to believe.

Re: # 234

major,

you are coming up with shameful excuses and trying to justify the wanton murder of some of your "Shining India's" mammoth minorities...some of your elected leaders are murdering thugs who with government connivance orchestrated ethnic cleansing, loot, arson and plunder...and who are still ruling the roost...what is more outrageous than that? Meanwhile the Pak Army is doing a great job, and the local people are helping it in the shape of armed posses, in rooting out the criminals in the Frontier...criminals are now on the run...meanwhile peruse the following to be able to see the mirror:

/india-facts.com/news/20090108127/atrocities-on-kashmiris-a-catalogue/

Ra pe and Molestation of Women

Presently, the situation in Kashmir, according to international organiasations & global media has not changed yet very much. It is still alarming and sparking flames in South Asia, that more then seven hundred thousand Indian army deployed in a small 40 -80 square miles area is the heaviest concentration in human history, and its all without any moral, political and legal code. 92 thousand Kashmiris have been killed by the Indian army in 17 years.
Since January 1989 to April 30, 2007:
Total killing. 91,865
Custodial Killing 6,899
Women gang raped & Molested 9,708
Civilian arrested 113,798
Structures arsoned /Destroyed 105,353
Children orphaned 106,930
Women widowed 22,530

The International NGO’s Amnesty International, Human rights watch, Asia watch, Red Cross, Medicine sans frontier and others are not allowed to visit Kashmir. Torture is widespread, particularly in the temporary detention centres; methods of torture include electric shock, prolonged beatings and sexual molestation of innocent women.

Kashmir is a disputed territory. Presently, the ceasefire line between the forces of India and Pakistan has divided Kashmir into two parts. One part is under Indian occupation: this comprises 63% of the whole territory and includes the Vale; it has a population 7.5 million. The other part, with approximately 3 million people, includes Azad Kashmir and the Northern region of Gilgit and Baltistan and is administered by Pakistan. About 1.5 million Kashmiris are refugees in Pakistan, some 400,000 live in Britain, and about 250,000 are scattered around the world. The present arbitrary bifurcation of Kashmir has resulted in the division of thousands of Kashmiri families.

Kashmiris living there have no life safety and human honour. Women are degraded and humiliated, almost 10 thousands women are raped; not only adult women but even eight year old girls are victimised.

Since the Indian government crackdown against Kashmiris in the disputed territory of Kashmir began in earnest in January 1990, security forces and Indian army have used rape as a weapon: to punish, intimidate, coerce, humiliate and degrade. Rape by Indian security forces most often occurs during crackdowns, cordon-and-search operations during which men are held for identification in parks or schoolyards while security forces search their homes. In these situations, the security forces frequently engage in collective punishment against the civilian population by assaulting residents and burning their homes. Rape is used as a means of targeting women to punish and humiliate the entire community. Rape has also occurred frequently during reprisal attacks on civilians. In many of these attacks, the selection of victims is seemingly arbitrary and the women, like other civilians assaulted or killed, are targeted simply because they happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. Women who are the victims of rape are often stigmatised, and their testimony and integrity impugned. Social attitudes which cast the woman, and not her attacker, as the guilty party pervade the judiciary, making rape cases difficult to prosecute and leaving women unwilling to press charges.

Government authorities have failed to bring the culprits on record. The normal trend of the Government during these years is to hide the atrocities committed by the Indian armed and paramilitary forces in order to dodge the Amnesty International and the world Human Rights Organization.

Various NGOs and human rights organisations are working for feminism and other civil & social rights, but in my opinion no satisfied work regarding Kashmiri women’s safety and modesty. Women and Children are the victim of the worst human rights violations in this area of armed conflicts and ethnic war. It is crystal clear that sexual violence, which was used to subjugate and destroy a people as a form of ethnic cleansing, was an abhorrent and heinous war crime. These persistent and gross abuses, flagrant denials of the human rights of women and their right to life itself, demanded an urgent response from international human rights bodies.

According to data maintained by a media portal of United Kingdom (UK) on reported cases of rape and molestation in which security forces were allegedly involved, nearly 500 women were raped in various parts of Jammu and Kashmir between1990-1994. Media portal maintains that it has compiled the reports from what was reported by state media. The portal maintains that non-governmental organisations (NGO) hardly took interest in documenting the plight of these silent sufferers of Jammu and Kashmir.

According to a 1994 United Nations publication from 1990 to 1996, 882 women were reportedly gang-raped by security forces in Jammu and Kashmir. But Social Stigma associated with word “Rape� has made work of human rights and women NGOs cumbersome. They say that women are reluctant to come forward. Extra Judicial killings, rapes, custodial killings, kidnappings, burning of houses by Indian security forces within IHK remain a common practice. The whole IHK has risen against the Indian Army and the Armed Forces Special Powers Act AFSPA and POTA that enables the Indian Army to arrest and kill anyone, anytime, anywhere, in a bid to suppress the ongoing Kashmir liberation movement, the Indian authorities have laid a network of torture cells to practice human rights violations. In these torture cells, the worst repressive means such as electric shocks, ironing of sensitive parts of body, are practised against the innocent Kashmiris without caring for the age and health conditions. Besides, the female folk are also taken to these centres where they are reportedly gang-raped for protesting against the Indian brutalities or filing complaints against terrorising of their near and dear ones.

This poverty struck women have nothing to feed their children. Their husbands went missing and they could not even wail over their missing husbands.1000 widows, whose husbands have disappeared but not been proven dead. Their children were killed in front of their eyes and yet they are doing rounds of the government offices to prove that their children were killed in cold blood. The dreaded attack by soldiers and an assault on their honour and body remains in the minds of every woman in Kashmir. The young widows and teenaged orphan girls are facing more problems due to their youth as they are always at danger of getting molested or raped. It is matter of concern that most of the married women face the problem of miscarriages, which is one of the fastest growing problem in the rural and border areas of Kashmir.

These happenings are not confined to Muslims. In the last 16 years the women of Kashmir have had to bear male vengeance in silence and they have been unable to find spare to transcend that. Estimates given by various organisations place widowS between 30 000 to 40 000 and Orphans between 50 000 to 80 000.the raped women are doubly victimised and have to live the rest of their carrying to stamp of stigma in silence.�

The peace process began three years ago between India and Pakistan on Kashmir, and there has been dozens of talks for 60 years, three wars in 1947, 1965 and 1971, thousands of innocent peoples from both sides have been killed. But the end is no where in sight. The United Nations had 6 resolutions passed time to time but justice, and implementation of these resolutions have been delayed.

It is imperative that the United Nations, European Union and Organisation of Islamic Conference and other powers to start the negotiation and mediation with Kashmiri leadership and influential organisations from both sides of Kashmir. Because both countries Pakistan and India have got nuclear capacity because of Kashmir. Political pundits predict cloud of nuclear war is seeing on sky of South Asia clearly. In these difficult circumstances, this dress code edict is simply misplaced, if not a deliberately planted red herring. More pain for the Kashmiri women, thousands of whom have already lost their husbands, sons and loved ones to the bullets and atrocities of the marauding Indian soldiers and many of whom have also fallen victim to sexual defilement.

The European parliament has adopted MEP Emma Nicholson report titled “Kashmir; Present situation and future prospects� on May 25, 2007, by an overwhelming 522 votes in favour to 19 votes against. The report recognised Kashmiris right to self-determination, deploring massive human rights abuses in Jammu & Kashmir, encouraging the Peace process between India and Pakistan and emphasising inclusion of Kashmiris in the Peace process. The Amnesty International released a latest Global report 2007 said in that there is many violence, torture, custodial deaths enforced disappearances and extra-judicial executions continued in Jammu & Kashmir in the year 2006.

Rape in war is not merely a matter of chance nor is it a question of sex. It is rather a question of power and control which is `structured by male soldiers’ notions of their masculine privilege. Kashmir is rising flame, which is increasing speedily. If United Nations, European Union and other world wide NGO’s do not succeeded in finding an acceptable solution with the participation of kashmiris, it will cause disaster for this part of South Asia. World powers and Global Institutions need to understand this burning issue.

The people of Kashmir demand an end to the military occupation of their land. Because they demand what they have been pledged by both India and Pakistan and guaranteed by the United Nations Security Council with the unequivocal endorsement of the United States, demilitrisation of Kashmir and a free plebiscite vote organised impartially.

Every Kashmiri is waiting anxiously for somebody to help attain freedom for them. I am a women so I understand feelings and emotions, inner voice of every Kashmiri woman.

Re: # 243

For those of you interested in facts rather than spin, please take a look at this link: http://www.friendsofsouthasia.org/textbook/TextbookEdits.html

The edits attempted by Hindutva groups were by no means minor. That's why they were so hard fought.

What was being attempted was insertion of a set of white lies about the very origins of Hinduism in India, the fact that Hindus in India are as foreign as Arabs, central Asians and Muslims in India and there were attempts to whitewash systematic discrimination against and humiliation of dalits and women etc. etc.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

#Kulharee Let us finish this Hindu/ muslim discussion once for all which I hijacks all reasonable dialogue.

Call your self Hindu and be still a Kalima recital Muslim as long you accept my right to have my eyes open and opinion on everything, as Quran itself tells all Muslims to do. I'll try persuading all the Hindu fellows admit that you can be Hindu too while being Muslim. If any Hindu on the Chowk has objections, please come forward now. Be my guest for dinner and explain me why it is not possible.

I feel the problem is that you can not do the same for me, however open minded you're with Muslims, even with great erudites of Chowk. I won't even dare attend the dinner, lest the dinner is me.

Referring to Indian Mathematics as Hindu Mathematics is about as dumb as calling Quran the Muslim Flight Manual.

This ul-faq keeps harping on the California textbook case. I doubt whether he has read the edits and seen what was accepted or not. Basically, the demeaning portrait of Hinduism has been corrected. Most of the "edits" that were turned down were things like:

"Women had less rights than men in ancient India"

versus

"Women had different rights..."

Numerous rejected edits had to do with replacing "Brahman" as the supreme being with the word "Bhagawan", which even I agree with since "Bhagwan" is a Hindi-centric word, while Brahman is the word used in Sanskrit texts.

Finally, there were edits related to the issue of the Aryan invasion theory, which is also controversial to say the least.

None of this has anything to do with the theology of Hinduism. Most of the egregious and offensive misinterpretations of the theological and mythological aspects have been corrected. Only some of these historical and cultural aspects are in contention. And none of it has anything to do with muslims or islam, so not sure why this ullu is getting his knickers in a twist over it. Besides, the case isn't over yet; there is an appeal that is still ongoing.

In any case, the trend is clear. Hindus are slowly taking over the discourse on Hinduism and ancient India. Sankrant Sanu's Sulekha article on the Encarta nonsense was a watershed. The days of white men (and women like Wendy Donniger) who are outsiders to the faith dominating its narrative are numbered. Just as one sees many more Indian political commentators now for matters pertaining to India(Ashley Tellis, Samit Ganguly, Zakharia, Parag Khanna, Kapil Komireddi etc), the same will be true of Indian history, culture, and religion in another decade or so. The days of the Wolperts, Witzels, Wendys, and Courtrights are numbered. Once this racist and patronizing hierarchy is overthrown, the new inductees will play by the rules of the culture they are studying.

Regards ji,

I have already made claims to be the best of all the muslim submitters compared to any of the pakhandi Pakistanis!!

Re: # 236
"Infact I am convinced that Laddu is far from being an idolator as he professes publicly. It is simply a provocation towards the inability for a muslim to say anything which Quran says. Infact muslim alumnus Riaz simply plays to muslim gallery and does'nt seem to know more than whatever he collects from net. So in such cases it is necessary that someone silences him."

quite perceptive. well understood regards ji!!

Tslking about text books I have show this shameless, bigotted Islami Jehad Alumni World wide president how his apologia for Islamism is the cause of Jehadi curriculum in Pakistani schools.

The bigoteed manner he is ignoring the SDPI report on the "Pakistan's Hate Curriculum" cleary shows his horrible Agenda of Hallalification of the muslim identity !!

Re: # 233

"India is groping now for a national identity that would allow it to approach Pakistan with confidence, but there is no consensus on how to mesh India’s identity with that of Pakistan’'

It is like saying the American identity is as confuses viz-a-viz the Paki Islami identity.

This shows the confusion in Amaerican foreign policy of trying to see identities in through religious identities only.

as per this analyses american identity would be even more confusing viz-a-viz Pakistan. Atleast it is NOW with respect to many Islami countries like Iran , Iraq etc.

Re: # 221

Goldfinger ji,

I am not saying something new. these news about atrocities on Pakistani Hindus and the de-sacriligement of theirreligious icons are all reported in the papers.

If you turn a blind eye towards them and support rabid Islamists like Riaz-ul-haq who is trying to promote sunnah complaint HALAL-Politics, then I can only fear for your ommission!!

Riaz Haq sahab...please explain:

Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

iss ka matlab kya hai?
Thanks.

#225 tahmed32 I thought respons to your query Whether laddu can be considered a Hindu was implied in my respons that Hindu traditions accept that you may keep a different belief as long as you don't get in others ways so he very much Hindu. At least as much as any muslim in India who respects others. You can fully well criticize, discuss, though not as vehemently as on Chowk. Infact I am convinced that Laddu is far from being an idolator as he professes publicly. It is simply a provocation towards the inability for a muslim to say anything which Quran says. Infact muslim alumnus Riaz simply plays to muslim gallery and does'nt seem to know more than whatever he collects from net. So in such cases it is necessary that someone silences him.

Masadi is often right in political matters but gets emotional and forgets that most Americans (including you and Hamidm and many of family and friends) are doing what is good for your the safety of oyur own environment. They are not part of a concept like Ummah or communism to make sure that Pakis or Indians or progressing or not.

Now what we can do can be discussed, let us discuss on another thread in current affaires. Let us leave this to a very rate kind of subject on Chowk : Maths in old times in S. Asia and specially where we have from Afghanisatn till Kerala.

All Hindus/Indians and muslims/ Pakistanese, please take a serious note. If immediatley YOu don't leave this threat to a discussion on maths, I'll all become an atheist laddu or communist Masadi and start trashing you all. I've grduges as old as 40+ years. You can't beat me on that.

Unless of course pervez Hoodbhoy gets into his role of author and takes the thread forward in discussion. (Please stop looking for increasing number of interacts which is easy on Chowk on all subjects India vs Pakistan)- Regards

#228

I lost the argument? Yeah, in ur world.

As for Hindutva changing history, u quote California textbooks, since u cant Indian textbooks. Very educated argument, Pak Alumni Worldwide.

As for 233, U seem to have some comprehension problems. Lol!

Yeah, there's no uniform Hindu identity but there's this uniform world Muslim identity, moron.

Re: # 223 GF

My point was simple to begin with - you pakis should save your outrage regarding condition of muslim lives in india or elsewhere - because you pakis are THE worst offenders in that department even though pakiland supposed to be have been created for muslims only... As far as I can see - muslims are better off in india than pakiland...

Deciding Right/Wrong and Riding moral high horses is a paki pastime - I usually stay away from such excercises...

As for Kashmir - We are defending against a brutal jihad... It's a war and in a war people die - civilian and otherwise... All I can say is - this is a war that has been thrust upon us and we have fought it with as best as possible under the circumstances...with as much caution and restraint as possible under the circumstances... we don't use gunships, we don't use fighter planes, we don't use white phspherous... you pakis do...

If you compare similar wars around the region - you can see that we have done comparatively well - 30K casualty over 20 years is not bad - americans killed 500K in iraq in 5 years, about 100K in afagnistan... and you pakis have surpassed all numbers combined...

So - save the outrage...

Re: # 226
Here's what Brookings Stephen Cohen recently said about India's identity crisis and its ambivalence toward Pakistan:

"In their quest for an identity, some Indians tried to replicate Pakistan’s failure by manufacturing a “Hindu� Indian identity—the so-called Hindutva movement. But there is no all-Indian Hindu identity—India is riven by caste and linguistic differences, and Aishwarya Rai and Sachin Tendulkar are more relevant rallying points for more Indians than any Hindu caste or sect, let alone the Sanskritized Hindi that is officially promulgated."

"India is groping now for a national identity that would allow it to approach Pakistan with confidence, but there is no consensus on how to mesh India’s identity with that of Pakistan’s. Indians do not know whether they want to play cricket and trade with Pakistan, or whether they want to destroy it. There is still no consensus on talking with Pakistan: sometimes the government and its spokesman claim that they do not want to deal with the generals, but when the generals are out of the limelight, they complain that the civilians are too weak to conclude a deal. The default option seems to be that Pakistan is now someone else’s problem--in this case the United States’. Not a few Indian generals and strategists have told me that if only America would strip Pakistan of its nuclear weapons then the Indian army could destroy the Pakistan army and the whole thing would be over. This of course is both silly and dangerous—and could lead to a catastrophic misjudgment when the fifth India-Pakistan crisis does come. We were close to one last year, I have no doubt that the people who tried to trigger a new India-Pakistan war will try again."
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Dost-Mittar:227
Jann-nay Vaalay Jaan-tay haiN"

ulloo ko raat kaa shahbaaz kehna koi aap sey seekhhay. Subhaan-Allah.

Anti-minority riots in India have been a regular feature and claimed hundreds of thousands of lives since 1947. More recently, the rise of Hindutva groups and their state backing in various parts of India have resulted in tens of thousands killed and hundreds of thousands dislocated and made homeless.

https://akalidalamritsar.sslpowered.com/akalidalamritsar.net/Historic%20Docu ments/Riots%20History%20Of%20India.pdf

More than the numbers, these incidents have had a chilling effect on the hopes and ambitions of entire minority groups to join the mainstream society and share in the fruits of India's growth. Muslims, in particular, have been strongly discouraged from participation because of systematic discrimination as documented by Sachar, Yoginder Sikand, Pankaj Mishra, Asra Nomani and others.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Riaz:

"were these temple destructions organized by the leaders of the biggest opposition parties? Were these destruction pre-planned/announced by major religious groups or political parties? Did the police and security forces stand by and allow mobs to go on a rampage? Were these temple destructions followed by nationwide anti-Hindu riots?"

Sometimes, you ask good questions! [except the last one; afaik, the riots were mostly in Bombay and started by Muslim mobs angry over the destruction of the Babri masjid. But they were followed by much more organized anti-muslim riots by shiv sena helped by the police].

Re: # 214
So you are confirming for me that hiring and promotion decisions in India are made based on the name (and religion) on the resume. If the name sounds Muslim (like Musharraf or Riaz), don't hire at all, but if you have to, offer a chaprasi or havaldar position at best. Nothing more for Muslims in India.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 226
What a lame and shameful attempt to demonize me after losing an argument.

Talking about textbooks, I have reported here in my interacts how the Hindutva whitewashed history and culture is being taught via Indian textbooks. I have also reported the failed attempts by Hindutva lobby to distort California text books a couple of years ago.

You are shameless bigot, and this latest personal attack on me just confirms it.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

tahmed32#225:

"even dost mittar (criticized by fellow indians as being too easy on us evil pakis), was shocked into writing an article on how little obama knows about pakistan's evil deeds."

The main theme of that article was: India's refusal to play ball with Obama's strategy for the region and its consequences. Since I do not doubt your comprehension skills, it must be my poor communication skills that you interpreted it the way you did. I can only be grateful that no one else interpreted it in the way you did.

The reason why Pakistan produces so many Riaz Haqs.

Conjuring Pakistan: History as Official Imagining
Ayesha Jalal

(International Journal of Middle East Studies, Vol. 27, No. 1. (Feb., 1995), pp. 73-89).

Although consistent in presenting a generally jaundiced and jumbled view of the past, officially approved textbooks display an exasperating degree of confusion
as to when and where to begin cataloging Pakistani history.

Evidence culled from the official textbooks on Pakistani history is a testimony to the imperative of differentiating between the creative bigotry of power and the critical
power that vests in creative imaginings.

Pakistan, with its artificially demarcated frontiers and desperate quest for an officially sanctioned Islamic identity, lends itself remarkably well to an examination
of the nexus between power and bigotry in creative imaginings of national identity.

Representations of ``us`` and ``them`` in Pakistani official discourse are instructive not in what they seek to falsify or authenticate but in the sheer blatancy of narrative styles employed to privilege or discredit particular interpretations of history.

Recent historical research has underlined the extent to which the All-India Muslim League`s demand for a Pakistan was unable to square the circle of the contradictory
interests of Muslims in the Indian subcontinentt. The demand was raised on behalf of all Indian Muslims, who were deemed to be a nation.

One writer traces the ideological inspirations of Pakistan to an imaginatively reclaimed pre-Islamic Muslim world: ``............and the people of Bani Israel were all Muslim.``

An Introduction to Pakistan Studies.......the establishment of Pakistan based on a concept of Islamic sovereignty. Allah alone is sovereign and the ``ruler of the Islamic
State does not possess any authority of his own.`` The coming of Islam to the Indian subcontinent was a ``blessing`` because Hinduism was based on an ``unethical
caste system.``

(As if there are no castes in Islamic Pakistan! - my comment)

Islam was the ``crowning factor`` in the establishment of Pakistan, which is ``not a geographical entity but an ideology which reflects a unique civilization and culture.`` It was a ``revolt`` against insidious efforts to impose ``Hindu nationalism . . . on the Muslims and their culture.`` All this leads to the conclusion-by now self-evident-that Pakistan has to move toward becoming an Islamic state because that was the ``sole purpose of demanding
a separate homeland for the mu slim.

M. D. Zafar`s A Text Book of Pakistan Studies is one of the more entertaining examples.

For Zafar, Pakistan ``came to be established for the first time when the Arabs under Mohammad bin Qasim occupied Sind and Multan``; by the 13th century ``Pakistan had spread to include the whole of Northern India and Bengal`` and then under the Khiljis ``Pakistan moved further southward to include a greater part of Central India and the Deccan.`` Pakistan`s habit of showing up after every second or third
sentence makes this a truly remarkable publication. So for instance, after mentioning

Akbar`s Din-i-Ilahi and Sirhandi`s resistance to it Zafar notes that ``the spirit of Pakistan asserted itself.`` Under Aurangzeb the ``Pakistan spirit gathered in strength``;
his death ``weakened the Pakistan spirit.

The underplaying of Pakistan`s more obvious Indo-Muslim heritage was based on a ``sentiment of hatred for India and things Indian.

(Some other book says) The Muslim League`s Lahore resolution of 23 March 1940 was orchestrated so that Muslims could lead their ``lives in accordance with the dictates of the
Holy Quran and Sunnah.


Wali Khan -``they do not report history, they manufacture it.``

Regards #217 I dont like or dislike anyone on chowk. For all I know Masadi may be going out and feeding the homeless pigeons after he is done with his chowk duties.

My point was very simple and nothing to do with Masadi or Riaz - it was about your saying that "indian religions" call for respect for all faiths. which begged the questions that i then posed for you (i.e. whether laddu and other burnt pakoras from india were in violation of hinduism, and if not if hinduism was then not an "indian religion").

The only response to these questions i have seen (dude40000 e.g.) are claims that laddu is indeed a very learned laddu and is simply stating a fact when he demonizes islam). Such a response may impress fellow indians - but it impresses no one other than indians. while of course our lowly paki opinions dont matter to indians - but it is this stupid mindset that caused so much grief and shock to indians listening to obama's speech. even dost mittar (criticized by fellow indians as being too easy on us evil pakis), was shocked into writing an article on how little obama knows about pakistan's evil deeds.

"By an ingenious computation of a circle’s circumference by polygonization, Madhava was able to arrive at a numerical value of pi correct to the 11th decimal place".

The idea of approximating the value of pi by using the circumferences of inscribing and cirsumscribing polygons to a circle was already introduced by archimedes almost 1700 years before the kerala school.

indeed, using his method, archimedes was able to prove that
the value of pi is greater than 223/71, and less than 22/7.
still finer approximations were possible simply by extending the method of archimedes.

of course, with the later advances in trignometry made by the kerala school (particularly the series expansions for trignometric functions) much more accurate approximate values could be computed far more easily than with the geometric-arithmetic argument of archimedes.

Re: # 220

major...so now you wish to right the wrong by killing a greater number of people? I will give you that I was/am totally against the brutal excesses committed in Bangladesh by both sides...the Paks as well as the Indian supported muktibahini...what is your take on the brutal thuggery of your army in Kashmir now? As they say two wrongs don't make a right...as for the Pak army ops in Northwest...well I'm from the same region and we all (IDPs included) totally support the army in cleansing the region of a bunch of criminals...in fact armed posses have also joined in the cleansing op.

I mean- what's the number of the IDPs from swat?... Million and counting?... And where are the IDPs and refugees from kashmir - after all we are foing extermination for a long time there....

laddu,

You poisoned pakora of hate...I haven't read a single of your interacts...but I know already that whatever you said therein are nothing but a bunch of lies, as usual!

Re: # 218 GF

What's your number on muslims killed in Kashmir - 70K?... fine with me... still comes way short of muslims pakis killed... besides, as you pakis yourselves have noticed recently - our "systematic extermination" in kashmir does not hold a candle to what you pakis are doing right now in swat and elsewhere in the tribal areas... Running gunships on civilians? tsk tsk...

Like I said - this is a no contest... you can twist and turn all you want - but you pakis are the worst of the worst in terms of ethnic and community relations...

Re: # 194

CoolAL,

as WH Auden said:

"“What all schoolchildren learn,
Those to whom evil is done
Do evil in return.�

Its quite sad that you had to endure all of that in your learning stages!

Re: # 209

major...as I suspected...out you come with skewed, blinkered numbers...particularly on Kashmir where your army is involved in systematic extermination of civilians for a long time now.

tahmed32

As you don't like masadi. Let me give you an example on him.

Here was this comment by Rashid Malik:
Working poor are looked down upon in India and Pakistan.
There is a lack of compassion towards the weak and vulnerable. Crowd mentality in India and Pakistan is lethal. The self-righteous fundamentalists/fascists have enough clout to become the judge and the executioner.

To which Masadi responded:
they are looked down upon because of social precident in a society that is feudal in outlook whose feudalism is maintained by the West through avenues I mentioned. When forces greater than those for change are keeping a nation backward then it will remain backward and its working class will be looked down upon- if you lose sight of the real causes your lamenting any lamenting becomes worthless...

Forget western anathema and just look at masadi's remark 'society that is feudal in outlook whose feudalism is maintained.. .. When forces greater than those for change are keeping a nation backward then it will remain backward and its working class will be looked down upon' as primary cause.

Sheer brilliance at least for awam like me.

Unfortunately Masadi is typical of un Indians and pakistanese alike who see only gods and demons. Not just humans in our past (..and present)who made errors and brilliant moves too. As history and science is labelled and hijacked to serve the cause of religions. But so are are our prophets etc.. who used religion to take the society to reform or to a trip to hell.

Re: # 205

Tahmed - With due respect, I see Riaz Haq and Laddu in the same league. There's not much difference between the two.

I usually avoid replying to talk to either of them. Both believe in "even if your shirt is torn, it is made all right by pointing out that the other man’s fly is open. Unanswerable logic. Mends the shirt quickly too."

#205 tahmed

I read Laddu's mails systematically because he is quite informed. He seems to be more often reacting to omni-present islamic bully. But otherwise he is quite balanced also.

Surprisingly Masadi, your bête noire, is brilliant often and I con't avoid reading him. Unfortunately in next sentence he becomes repulsive by his western phobia and abusive towards one and all. I dare not take his argumentation forward and support him to avoid being pirated by his vehemence and misunderstood.

(Not the same with you. You are allowed to shout at me as in general you're balanced)

My remark is for majority in general. Indians and Hiduism have also never been short of morons. I've many Hindu friends, and a large number of them are RSS kinds who are very appreciative of Islam for only one thing - its Kattarpana. But the good news is that is what holds others from coming anywhere close to them. You can even see the reaction in a highly mazhabi mahol of UP where BJP and RSS were thrown out when they tried to revisit Ayodhya. Even in Gujrat, Narendra Modi seems to have discarded his past, making many wonder whether he should be hauled in the court now or made prime minister in the way he pulled Gujrat ahead of all states in prosperity. The difference is that to build one highway, he pulled down 200 temples and no Hindu came down in the streets. One muszid gets damaged 20 years ago and it seems as Allah, at least, died making all muslims lose their bearings.

I think it is foolish to compare progress of Pakistani Muslims and Indian Muslims.
Muslims in India have to compete for everything with
Hindus, Sikhs, Christians. In Pakistan, Muslims are granted everything.
If Musharraf was in Indian army, he would have at the most
become Havaldar and Riaz Haq would have been at the most some chaprasi in government department.
That was the reason Pakistan Muslims wanted Pakistan, so
they do not have to compete with Hindus and Sikhs which
are far superior to them in every aspect except regligious
bigtry and hatred.

I mean - it's really rich when pakis talk about condition of muslim lives elsewhere - pakis killed and ravaged millions of their own people who happened to speak a different language... pakis are only "country" where the majority(bengalis) seceded under oppression from the minority...

Worse is that - oppression of muslims in pakiland didn't stop even after that disaster... then came oppression of mohajirs... then masscre of baloch nationalists...

And it continues till date... we have pakis spraying white phospherous on their own kids in Lal Masjid... thousands are being straffed from gunships in tribal areas...

Pakis have killed muslims at home and abroad - thousands of palestinans were killed by Zia's troops....

So pakis - save the outrage... Indian muslims are far better off with bhindoos...

Re: # 210

there is no need to kill the hslf-killed dhimmi slaves.

And none of these paki dhimmi slaves revolted or tried to kill the muslims btw!!

Re: # 210

These temple destructions were organized by all the leaders of political parties and ulemas. These were condoned by the 'intellectual aluni associations'. As usual the police were more than happy to ignore these vandalisms.

Re: # 208

Even if we assume that your data is correct *which I personally doubt), were these temple destructions organized by the leaders of the biggest opposition parties? Were these destruction pre-planned/announced by major religious groups or political parties? Did the police and security forces stand by and allow mobs to go on a rampage? Were these temple destructions followed by nationwide anti-Hindu riots?
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 176 GF
[...though exact figures have to be sorted out...]

here are the exact figures of muslims killed:

muslims killed by pakis:
1 million in Bdesh...
10K in Balochistan...
thousands of mohajirs in karachi
thousands are being killed in tribal areas as we speak...

Muslims killed by Hindus :
2K in gujrat...
30K in kashmir

that's about it... it's a no contest...

Following statistics was given in the Indian Parliament during question and answer session by the external affairs ministry. As usual the biased press coverage on this was minimal and presented merely as a 1-2 inch column length in the middle pages.

After the Dec.6,1992 incident in Ayodhya, India (destruction of the disputed Babri mosque) Anti-Hindu forces in the rest of the world reacted as follows:

Pakistan - 242 temples damaged/ destroyed.

Bangla Desh- 357 temples damaged/ destroyed. Also included among these was the famous Dhakeshwari temple of Dhaka. This temple was first built in 15th century and was NOT a disputed structure.

Britain - 4 temples damaged

Attacks on 56 other temples in rest of the world.

Source - News India Times , March 1993

Alumni WW you cannot take the conditions of Indian Muslims post partition and then conclude from that that a similar condition would have ensued were no partition to take place. Jinnah weakened the Muslims of India by fragmenting them, making one section a slave to the Hindus and the other a slave to the West, a lose lose situation...

TNITC masadi

In # 204 "This hype of using religion by the Washington thugs for political ends does not convince anyone...

Regards #200 "In Indian faiths, we're told not to bring down other faiths as you can always learn something "

are you declaring ladu and other burnt pakoras from india to be outside these indian faiths? or by "indian faiths" you exclude hinduism?

Laddu writes "Thus two independent observations one dated prior to November 1, 1971 and other in January 1972 confirm that Hindu houses in East Pakistan were marked with yellow "H"s"

Do you know what "independant observations" are? First that senator moron sitting in Washington is not an independant observer, he is a partisan observer from far away ranting against Nixon's patronage of the Pakistan Army. The second moron talks about vising those sites long after the Indian Army had already taken over Bangladesh which converts this into a propaganda operation. What the Pakistan Army did in Bangladesh was against the Bengalis not the Hindus, you want to convert it into a Hindu Muslim affair which it was not. This hype of using religion by the Washington thugs does not convince anyone...

TNITC masadi

Re: # 202
The point is that Muslims in Pakistan, not facing systematic discrimination from Hindu majority, have done far better in Pakistan than they would have in a united India.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

OK, go ahead. Be Happy.

Re: # 199
Talking about achievement, India is one of the largest nations of underachievers. It shows up among worst in all sorts of rankings related to poverty, literacy, health, sanitation, income, human development etc. etc. So don't let this talk of systematic discrimination against Indian Muslim and their relative poverty and illiteracy go to your head.

On poverty-hunger-index, Pakistan ranks at 45 well ahead of India at 62, and it is included in the medium performing countries. PHI is a new composite indicator – the Poverty and Hunger Index (PHI) – developed to measure countries’ performance towards achieving MDG1 on halving poverty and hunger by 2015. The PHI combines all five official MDG1 indicators, including a) the proportion of population living on less than US$ 1/day, b) poverty gap ratio, c) share of the poorest quintile in national income or consumption, d) prevalence of underweight in children under five years of age, and d) the proportion of population undernourished.

In the context of unprecedented economic growth (9-10 percent annually) and national food security, over 60 percent of Indian children are wasted, stunted, underweight or a combination of the above. As a result, India ranks number 62 along with Bangladesh at 67 in the PHI (Poverty Hunger Index)ranking out of a total of 81 countries. Both nations are included among the low performing countries in progress towards MDG1 (Millennium Development Goals) with countries such as Nepal (number 58), Ethiopia (number 60), or Zimbabwe (number 74).

The World Hunger Index of 88 countries published by IFPRI last year ranked India at 66 while Pakistan was slightly better at 61 and Bangladesh slightly worse at 70.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

#82 Riaz Haq

Looking at your Vedic quotes, I thought here is something worth reading on maths in ancient times in India.

Once again I'm cheated by your Islamic handicap of shouting at nauseum that muslims are best. Please learn something from Budhhism(if you have problems admitting that buddhism is also a hindu- Indian philosophy).In Indian faiths, we're told not to bring down other faiths as you can always learn something and that's how 1 billion learn and live together. If you really want to find things horrible in Indian metpahysical past, there are aplenty. It was nothing like Islam where everyone has to follow the same path. Look for Trantric literature. Its followers will do everything opposite to recommended a life with ascetic values so they get more of money, more of sex ... Like it or not they are also part of Hinduism. You'll definitley enjoy it. However you don't need to mention here. I've plenty from Vedas also on other subjects. Vedas are not Quran. I'm a perfect nastik who have existed since at least 900 BC. A Nastik means lietrally one who does not believe in Vedas. Nobody killed or maimed Nastik Sages. There were aplenty and especially those who contributed to natural sciences.

On your other favourite subject of sanitation; in my village most of the houses have toilets of late but still village elders encourage youngsters to go to fields, like they do themselves, for early morning walk and toilet. Find reasons for yourself. I do not care what you think or shout.

Now if you permit, can we get back to the proposed article. If you really have to talk of your favourite obsession, go to some other thread please. I eagerly look for some good reading. Please others, don't be distracted by these culturly depraved pirates.

196, So u remain a whiner wherever u are. Blame somebody else for under-achievement.

Punjabi Muslim contribution in freedom struggle:

Hanged : Sikhs 93, non-Sikhs 28 i.e 80% of the ppl hanged (in Punjab??) are Sikhs

Imprisoned for life : Sikhs 2147, non-Sikhs 449 i.e 80%

Killed in Jallianwalah bagh: Sikhs 799, non-sikhs 501 i.e 70%

Same source as below.

Conclusion: Muslims tho in majority were on govt rations, under-educated, under-employed, under-everything incl freedom struggle.

Why they were under achievers? Make ur conclusions.

Same applies to Muslims left in India. U conveniently blame Hindus em masse tho there're case of wilful victimisation but that's marginal & well within the range of possible individual and group bias.

Get some education u Pak Worldwide Alumni.

Paki army stooges like Riaz ul haq muat be sent to prison for their role as bhaands of a Jehadi army-


OTHER PROOF FOR 2.4 MILLION HINDUS KILLED IN EAST PAKISTAN

Since the 80 percent of the refugees in 1971 were Hindus,a similar proportion of the dead are likely to be Hindus also. The official Bangla Desh government estimate puts the number of Bengalis killed at 3 million. 80 percent of 3 million put THE NUMBER OF HINDUS KILLED AT 2.4 MILLION which is close to the number of Hindus missing calculated comes above.

SUMMARY & CONCLUSIONS

1. Independent accounts indicate that Hindus from East Pakistan were special target during the 1971 army repression. HINDU HOUSES WERE PAINTED WITH YELLOW "H"s, THEY WERE ROBBED OF THEIR LANDS AND SHOPS, AND THEY WERE SYSTEMATICALLY SLAUGHTERED.

2. 80 percent of the refugees to India in 1971 were Hindus, THUS IT WAS A HINDU REFUGEE PROBLEM.

3. NEARLY 2.5 MILLION HINDUS WERE KILLED DURING THE 9 MONTHS OF PAKISTANI ARMY REPRESSION OF EAST PAKISTAN IN 1971. THUS IT WAS A HINDU SLAUGHTER IN 1971.

Re: # 193
You are making Jinnah's case here for Pakistan, better than any Pakistani could have made it.

But then you are suggesting that Indian Muslims do not deserve any better than they have it now, based on the figures you show about Punjab as being representative of the population of entire India.

Fundamentally, a bigot you are, and a bigot you shall remain!!
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

HINDUS IN EAST PAKISTAN WERE SPECIAL TARGET OF PAK ARMY

In the summary of his report dated November 1, 1971 Senator Edward Kennedy writes (6):

'Field reports to the U.S. Government, countless eye-witness journalistic accounts, reports of International agencies such as World Bank and additional information available to the subcommittee document the reign of terror which grips East Bengal (East Pakistan). HARDEST HIT HAVE BEEN MEMBERS OF THE HINDU COMMUNITY WHO HAVE BEEN ROBBED OF THEIR LANDS AND SHOPS, SYSTEMATICALLY SLAUGHTERED, AND IN SOME PLACES, PAINTED WITH YELLOW PATCHES MARKED "H". All of this has been officially sanctioned, ordered and implemented under martial law from Islamabad. ..' (emphasis added by author of this article).

Sydney Schanberg, pulitzer prize winning journalist (of 'Killing Fields') was New York Times correspondent in Dhaka in 1971 at the time of army repression and during the 1971 Bangla Desh war. In his syndicated column 'The Pakistani Slaughter That Nixon Ignored' Mr.Schanberg writes:

"I covered the war and witnessed first the population's joyous welcome of the Indian soldiers as liberators .. Later I toured the country by road to see the Pakistani legacy firsthand. In town after town there was an execution area where people had been killed by bayonet, bullet and bludgeon. In some towns, executions were held on a daily basis."

This was a month after the war's end (i.e. January 1972), ... human bones were still scattered along many roadsides. Blood stained clothing and tufts of human hair clung to the brush at these killing grounds. Children too young to understand were playing grotesque games with skulls. OTHER REMINDERS WERE THE YELLOW "H"s THE PAKISTANIS HAD PAINTED ON THE HOMES OF HINDUS, PARTICULAR TARGETS OF THE MUSLIM ARMY." (7) (emphasis added by the author of this article).

Thus two independent observations one dated prior to November 1, 1971 and other in January 1972 confirm that Hindu houses in East Pakistan were marked with yellow "H"s and that Hindus were particular targets of the Pakistani army. The situation thus bears an uncanny resemblance to the predicament of Jews targeted by Nazis from 1939 to 1944, with similar out come.

MOST OF THE REFUGEES FROM BANGLA DESH WERE HINDUS

Senator Edward Kennedy in his report gives following details about the the refugees from Bangla Desh in 1971. As of October 25, 1971, 9.54 million refugees from East Pakistan had crossed over to India. The average influx as of October 1971 was 10,645 refugees a day (3). Hence the total refugee population at the start of Bangla Desh war on December 3, 1971 was about 10 million (5).

Sen. Kennedy further mentions that Government of India had set up separate refugee camps for Hindus and Muslims where possible, i.e. refugee camps of Hindus were located in Hindu majority areas and similarly Muslim camps were located in Muslim majority areas. THE COMMUNAL REPRESENTATION OF REFUGEES WAS 80 PERCENT HINDU, 15 PERCENT MUSLIM AND 5 PERCENT CHRISTIAN AND OTHER (8).

This means that 8 MILLION OF THE 10 MILLION REFUGEES WERE HINDUS (8). Other fact that corroborates this is that when Sen. Kennedy had asked several Chief Relief officers in charge of refugee camps what was needed most urgently, their reply was "crematoriums".

THE MISSING 2 .5 MILLION HINDUS

Several agencies indicate that the brutal Pakistani army repression killed 3 million Bengalis. This estimate is even given by the Government of Bangla Desh (5). However no religious mix of the dead is easily available.

Let us therefore look at the population demographics for Bangla Desh which is given in Table I.

TABLE I

Source : Based on Information from Bangladesh Ministry of planning, Bureau of Statistics (9)

YEAR


Total Population in Millions


Hindu Population as % of Total


Hindu Population in Millions

1941


42.00


28.0


11.76

1961


50.84


18 .5


9.41

1974


71.48


13.5*


9.655

1981


87.13


12.2


10.633

* Encyclopedia Britannica (10) gives 13.5% figure for 1974, where as Government of Bangla Desh gives 13.5% for 1971 and total population of 71.48 million for 1974 (9).

Since Hindus and Muslims in Bangladesh have similar socio- economic and educational backgrounds, the birth and death rates for these two groups must be very similar. This means that the Hindu population must grow at the same pace as the total population growth rate. Hence any unusual drop must be accounted for by influx of Hindu refugees and mortality rate from non natural causes. The expected Hindu population, the emigration to India from E. Pakistan and actual populations are listed in Table II.

Table II

YEAR


Hindu Population of East Pak/BD Actual (9)
(millions)


Expected Hindu Population in Absence of Strife
(millions)


Refugees from E. Pakistan to India(8)
(millions)


Hindus Missing
(millions)

1941


11.766


-


-


-

1961


9 .41


14.24


4.12(1947-58)


0.711

1974


9.65


13.23


1.11(1964-70)


2.477

Thus if 1947 partition had not resulted, the Hindu population of East Pakistan area should by 1961 have increased proportionally from 11.76 millions in 1941, to 14.24 millions (11.76 * 50.84 / 42 = 14.24). The official Indian Government records indicate that between 1947 and 1958, 4.12 million (Hindu) refugees crossed into India from East Bengal(3). This means the Hindu population in East Pakistan in 1961 should have been 10.12 million (14.24 - 4.12) compared to the actual 9.41 million. The missing 0.7 million Hindu population can be accounted by several hundred thousands killed in the riots in 1947 on the Bengal border, plus the refugee influx from 1958 to 1961. 1961.

Let us now look at Hindu population in East pakistan from 1961 to 1974. With proportional increase the Hindu population of 9.41 million in 1961 should have increased to 13.23 million ( 9.41 * 71.48 / 50.84 = 13.23 ) by 1974. However the actual Hindu population as per Bangla Desh Census data for 1974 was 9.65 million. Of the 3.58 million shortfall only 1.11 million can be accounted for since Government of India's record indicate that 1.11 million (Hindu) refugees crossed into India between 1964 and 1970 (3) i.e.PRIOR to the 1971 crisis.

THUS 2.47 MILLION (13.23 - 9.65 - 1.11 = 2.47) HINDUS FROM EAST PAKISTAN ARE UNACCOUNTED FOR FROM THE 1971 PAK ARMY REPRESSION.

OTHER PROOF FOR 2.4 MILLION HINDUS KILLED IN EAST PAKISTAN

Since the 80 percent of the refugees in 1971 were Hindus,a similar proportion of the dead are likely to be Hindus also. The official Bangla Desh government estimate puts the number of Bengalis killed at 3 million. 80 percent of 3 million put THE NUMBER OF HINDUS KILLED AT 2.4 MILLION which is close to the number of Hindus missing calculated comes above.

SUMMARY & CONCLUSIONS

1. Independent accounts indicate that Hindus from East Pakistan were special target during the 1971 army repression. HINDU HOUSES WERE PAINTED WITH YELLOW "H"s, THEY WERE ROBBED OF THEIR LANDS AND SHOPS, AND THEY WERE SYSTEMATICALLY SLAUGHTERED.

2. 80 percent of the refugees to India in 1971 were Hindus, THUS IT WAS A HINDU REFUGEE PROBLEM.

3. NEARLY 2.5 MILLION HINDUS WERE KILLED DURING THE 9 MONTHS OF PAKISTANI ARMY REPRESSION OF EAST PAKISTAN IN 1971. THUS IT WAS A HINDU SLAUGHTER IN 1971.

4. ALL THE ABOVE BEAR AN UNCANNY RESEMBLANCE TO THE PERSECUTION & HOLOCAUST OF JEWS BY THE NAZIS.

5. INDIAN GOVERNMENT CONTROLLED 'SECULAR' MEDIA DELIBERATELY HID THE SINISTER TRUTH OF HINDU GENOCIDE IN EAST PAKISTAN.

6. In any internal political problem of an Islamic country, Hindus (or minorities of other religions) become the scapegoats and will be liquidated at the first chance the Islamic Government gets.

7. WE HAVE LEARNT NOTHING FROM THE HISTORY AND WITH THE 'PSECULAR' MEDIA WE WILL LEARN NOTHING.

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Some home truths for the whiners. Do some introspection as to why Muslims lag behind in our region. There's no suppression and discrimination in Muslim-majority Punjab.


In undivided Punjab (pre-47)

Lahore dist:

Muslims were 10.28 millions and they paid land revenue Rs. 82,897/-

Non-Muslims were 6.68 millions & they paid land revenue of Rs. 98,813/-

1. Landholdings 65% non-Muslims the remaining by Muslims

2. Electrical Connections: Muslims 74, 790 a nd non-Muslims 81,525

3. Tax paid for urban immobile property:
Rs. 924, 358 by non-Muslims &
Rs. 396,189 by Muslims

4. Sales Tax :
Rs. 519, 203 by non-Muslims &
Rs. 66,323 by Muslims

5. Out of the 97 banking branches only 7 were run by Muslims.

6. Of the Rs. 100 crore bank deposits only 1 crore belonged to Muslims

7. Out of 215 factories in Lahore 167 were owned by non-Muslims

8. Total investments Rs. 6.05 crores Rs. 4.88 crores by non-Muslims

9. OUT OF 16 COLLEGES ONLY 3 WERE RUN BY MUSLIMS

10. Out of the 40 High Schools only 13 were run by Muslims

11. Candidates appearing for University examinsations only 28.51% were by Muslims.

12. Several Public libraries and hospitals established in the Lahore were by non-Muslims

13. Of the 5332 shops in Greater Lahore 3501 were owned by non-Muslims

14. Of the 80 Insurance offices, only 2 were owned by Muslims

15. Of the 12 Arts & Science colleges in Lahore only 1 was run by Muslims

16. Of the 15 professional colleges, exclusing 3 run by the Govt, all were run by non-Muslims

17. Of the 12 allopathic hospitals NOT EVEN ONE WAS RUN BY MUSLIMS.

18. Rationing enumeration: Muslims (53.9%), Hindus (34%), Sikhs (10%) & others (2%).

Tho being close to 45% Hindus were less on govt rations.

Source: PARTITION OF PUNJAB by Dr. Kirpal Singh (1988)

Riaz, Where did I say India is Shining, U Whiner.

U wanted facts and I gave hints (undivided Punjab, pre-47 Sindh employment, entrepreneurship data) and the present state of Pakistani, Bdeshi Muslims in UK. Why they are in the lowest rung there (unemployed, under-employed and under educated etc.,)?

U cant handle facts, I think. Go ahead and continue with ur randi rona.

Pakistan threatens to kill, rape, and enslave non-Muslims

In accordance to centuries-old Islamic injunctions. "Pakistan Taliban Threatens To Kill, Rape, Non Muslims," by Jawad Mazhar for Worthy News, June 15:

LAHORE, PAKISTAN (Worthy News)-- A loose Pakistan-based umbrella group of factions linked to the militant Taliban organization has threatened to kill or rape all non-Muslims to enslave their children and take away their properties, unless they meet tough conditions.

In a letter, seen by Worthy News Monday, June 15, the Tehreek-e-Taliban Pakistan (TTP) said non-Muslims should “embrace Islam�, or pay an Islamic tax known as 'Jaziva Tax' [jizya] to Muslim rulers, or leave Pakistan “forever�, if they don't want to be harmed.

Implementing Koran 9:29: "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."

And being true to the words of Muhammad: "Fight in the name of Allah and in the way of Allah. Fight against those who disbelieve in Allah. Make a holy war...When you meet your enemies who are polytheists, invite them to three courses of action. If they respond to any one of these, you also accept it and withold yourself from doing them any harm. Invite them to (accept) Islam; if they respond to you, accept it from them and desist from fighting against them....If they refuse to accept Islam, demand from them the Jizya. If they agree to pay, accept it from them and hold off your hands. If they refuse to pay the tax, seek Allah's help and fight them."(Sahih Muslim 4294)

“If the infidels rejected this suggestion they would be killed and they would be responsible for it�, wrote TTP leader Muslim Khan.

And, "The women of these disobedient infidels would be enslaved and raped according to [an Islamic ritual] Mut’a," he said.

As for concubinage, Koran 4:3 says, “Marry [i.e., copulate with] such women as seem good to you, two and three and four; but if you fear that you will not do justice, then only one, or what your right hands possess [captive women taken in war].�

Under Mut’a a Muslim man can, in theory, marry a woman for several hours and after having sexual intercourse can divorce again by saying three times "I divorce you". The children conceived would be converted to Islam, enslaved and forced to work for TTP, the group added in the letter.

The letter was received May 27, by residents in the Jafferia Colony neighborhood of Lahore, the capital of the Pakistani province of Punjab...

Re: # 185

Not only do you continue to be personally abusive toward me showing your inability to handle arguments in a civilized manner, you also show your extreme bigotry in abundance by blaming Indian Muslim victims for the consequences of systematic and brutal discrimination in your "secular democracy" aka "Shining India".

Your attitude is no different that that of the racist American southerners or Afrikaners in South African Apartheid regime. You ought to be ashamed of yourself for your despicable behavior. People like you are a terrible blot on your own nation that deserves better.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Paki Jehadi alumni Association has no place to hide its terrorist apologia.....

Paki Alumni Association Jehadi mullahs are part of the jamaat of jehad festering rodents who are part of the starved jehadis who take pride in kidnaping innocent hindu girls for forced and coerced "conversion' so that they can ultimately keep them in their harams-

April 11, 2009
Pakistan: Eighteen Hindu girls kidnapped and "converted" to Islam

One of these girls, after allegedly converting freely and marrying her abductor, was soon thereafter hurled to her death from the third-floor of a building. This story is also revealing of the psychology of kidnappers and ransom-seekers: "Three Hindus were kidnapped in Salih Pat. The kidnappers demanded Rs1.5 million as ransom. When the relatives sold their property to pay the ransom money, the abductors increased the original amount to Rs2.5 million. As the poor relatives were not in a position to pay the ransom, the abductors killed Mahender Kumar on the Hindus’ religious festival (Holi) recently 'as if to present a ‘gift’ to us.'"

"Minority legislator speaks up on kidnappings, conversions," by Imtiaz Ali for The News, April 10:

Increasing incidents of kidnapping of Hindu community members and “conversion� have caused concern in Sindh. Approximately 30 to 35 minority members had been kidnapped; one of them was killed. Seven are still believed to be in the custody of abductors. Around 18 Hindu girls had been converted to Islam; one of them was reportedly killed this year.[...]

KIDNAPPINGS: Three Hindus were kidnapped in Salih Pat. The kidnappers demanded Rs1.5 million as ransom. When the relatives sold their property to pay the ransom money, the abductors increased the original amount to Rs2.5 million. As the poor relatives were not in a position to pay the ransom, the abductors killed Mahender Kumar on the Hindus’ religious festival (Holi) recently “as if to present a ‘gift’ to us,� Sewani said. Two were still in their custody.[...]

RELIGIOUS CONVERSION: Around 18 Hindu girls had been kidnapped and “converted� this year. Some of the events might be the result of love affairs. “We do not have objections over their becoming Muslims but we have objections over the method through which they had been ‘converted’,� Sewani said.

“First they kidnap the girl, marry her and subsequently she is presented before the court. We demand that first, the girl should be kept at a ‘neutral place’ then it should be decided as to whether she had been converted. How we would be convinced that she had not been converted under duress as there are incidents that girls were kidnapped for ulterior motives. One Hindu girl who was reportedly converted and married in Sukkur, was thrown from the third floor of the building on Eid-ul-Azha day and died. Her husband was arrested but later released on bail,� he said..

When are the Paki Alumni Association jehadis stop abduction of hindu girls for forcibly converting to them and keeping them in their harmas forcefully following the footsteps of their Profit??

Hindus protest at 'Muslim abduction'

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/3039486.stm

About 500 Hindu women in Pakistan's Sindh province have been protesting at what they believe is the abduction of a teenage Hindu girl by a Muslim youth. The unprecedented protest has been taking place in Jacobabad district, about 500 kilometres (350 miles) from Karachi. Hindu leaders told the BBC the protests would continue until Soni - the 16 year-old girl - was found. Soni's father rejected suggestions she had eloped with a local Muslim shopkeeper. Police say that on 26 June, a formal complaint was lodged that Soni, daughter of shopkeeper Ashok Kumar, had been abducted three days earlier by a Muslim. Engaged Head of the Hindu Panchayat in Jacobabad, Babu Mahesh Kumar, said their demonstrations would continue until they knew where the girl was. Ashok Kumar told the BBC his daughter was already engaged to a Hindu and denied reports she had run off with the Muslim man, who is said to have a shop in the area where the Hindu family lives. The investigating officer, Mohammed Akram, told the BBC the Muslim man had gone to Balochistan and police were unable to detain him. A local Hindu leader, Kishan Lal, said this was the fourth case of abduction of a Hindu woman in the district during the last year. He said about 20 women had been abducted throughout Sindh province over the same period. The Hindu population of Sindh is estimated to be more than 400,000. Community leaders allege that the women who are abducted are forced to convert to Islam and marry their captors.

Hindus in Pakistan used a slaves & tortured
www.dawn.com/2003/10/20/local26.htm
HYDERABAD: 13 farmers picked up, tortured: HRCP
Bureau Report

HYDERABAD, Oct 19: The Qasimabad police picked up 13 liberated Haris, including Mannu Bheel, and took them to the police station where they were severely tortured on Sunday. A press release of the Special Task Force, Human Rights Commission of Pakistan, Sindh, said that a police mobile of the Qasimabad police station in a raid at the Adal Noonari Goth, Ghanjo Takar, Unit No12, Latifabad, picked up 13 Haris. Their names were ascertained as Mannu Bheel, Mithu Bheel, Rano Bheel, Sawai Bheel, Bai (wife of Mithu Bheel), Panna (wife of Mehru Bheel), Damo Bheel, and Mehru Bheel. The remaining five were children. They were blindfolded before being taken to the police station where they were severely tortured. According to the HRCP, these people were being forced to give a statement that nobody had kidnapped them or rather the family members of Mannu Bheel. However, they refused to give any such statements. Later, they were taken to the Latifabad Unit No8 police station where the DPO, investigation, Pir Fareed Jan Sarhandi, told them that they had been taken into custody "due to some misunderstanding". They were released about 12pm. It may be recalled here that nine family members of Mannu Bheel, including his old parents, wife and children, were kidnapped from Jhuddo on May 2, 1998, by a landlord of Sanghar. FIR No35 of 1998 was registered at the Jhuddo police station regarding it.

Only recently, the Sindh governor, Dr Ishratul Ibad, had directed the regional police officer, Hyderabad, Ghulam Mohammad Malkani, to recover the kidnapped family. The RPO had appointed the DPO, Investigation, Pir Fareed Jan Sarhandi, as inquiry officer. The HRCP press release further said that the SHO, Qasimabad, had told the Haris that they had been taken into custody under the orders of Pir Fareed Jan Sarhandi and they should give a statement that Mannu Bheel's family had never been kidnapped. t will be relevant to point out here that Mannu Bheel has been on hunger strike ever since Jan 19 in protest against the kidnapping of his family members.

#183 Posted by RiazHaq on June 17, 2009 5:42:02 am

U r a BSer as well (Eg. There used to be riots in India where Muslims fought back)

That's ur opinion not a fact. U dont know the diff btw an opinion & fact?

As I said Gujarat is a basket case, so dont generalise exception as norm.

'As to the Indian criminal justice system, even India analyst B. Raman has acknowledged its inherent unfairness toward the Muslim minority.'

The justice system is not discriminatory but delivery system was in some cases/states.

As u'd know, if u r really educated, that individual, group biases exist all over the world not just in India.

'Muslims are routinely jailed on trumped up charges and languish in prisons, as documented by Yoginder Sikand who looked at many states including Maharashtra, Tamil Nadu, Andhra.

Why Muslims, even Hindus are jailed on trumped up charges and bumped off in fake encounters. It's not exclusive to Muslims (as victims). Blame India police for their inefficiency. I think u need to get ur head checked.

'While making up 11% of the population, Muslims account for 40% of India’s prison population.'

Ppl who languish in prison are the ppl who're CONVICTED by courts. If more Muslims are convicted then u shud undergo some introspection as to why Muslims take to crime. AFAIK, many gangsters in Bombay are Muslims. Why? it's easy money. U can blame society/country remotely but the fundamental blame lies with the individual and the family units, in this case Muslims.


'In spite of 11% population, Muslims hold only 5% of government jobs, as documented by Sacahar. RSS cronies have infiltrated deep into the government and other institutions. '

If mozzies dont study well and dont compete to get jobs, is it the fault of the country? RSS cronies infiltration is ur imagination but not a fact.

If u ever get data, find the details in undivided Punjab, Sindh. Muslims were, tho majority, employed less in govt jobs. There's no discrimination then. The fact is/was that Hindus did well (study & compete) to get jobs. Lets take Britain. Here most of the welfare queens are from Pakistan and Bangladesh. They're on the lowest rung of social, educational and employment strata.

WTF, there's no discrimination there.


'Even high-profile Muslims like Shabana Azmi can not choose to live wherever they like in Mumbai. There are no-go areas/neighborhoods in major cities where Muslims can not even rent, much less own. The real estate offer "no-Muslas" as a feature of some of the apartment buildings and neighborhoods.'

Same applies for Muslims who refuse to let houses to Hindus/Jains/Sikhs/Christians. What's new there. Every community practices that norm.

U r an obsessed, unemployed & waste fellow.

This is my last post to u.

Hindus have been turned into dhimis by Paki Jehadi Alumni.

Temple Destruction

Several Hindu temples have been destroyed in Pakistan. A notable incident was the destruction of the Ramna Kali Mandir in former East Pakistan. The temple was bulldozed by the Pakistan Army on March 27, 1971.The Dhakeshwari Temple was severely damaged during the Indo-Pakistani War of 1971, and over half of the temple's buildings were destroyed. In a major disrespect of the religion, the main worship hall was taken over by the Pakistan Army and used as an ammunitions storage area. Several of the temple custodians were tortured and killed by the Army though most, including the Head Priest, fled first to their ancestral villages and then to India and therefore escaped death.

In 2006, the last Hindu temple in Lahore was destroyed to pave the way for construction of a multi-storied commercial building. The temple was demolished after officials of the Evacuee Property Trust Board concealed facts from the board chairman about the nature of the building. When reporters from Pakistan-based newspaper Dawn tried to cover the incident, they were accosted by the henchmen of the property developer, who denied that a Hindu temple existed at the site.[70]

Several political parties in Pakistan have objected to this move, such as the Pakistan People's party and the Pakistani Muslim League-N.[71][72] The move has also evoked strong condemnation in India from minority bodies and political parties, including the Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP), the Congress Party, as well as Muslim advocacy political parties such as the All India Muslim Majlis-e-Mushawarat.[73] A firm of lawyers representing the Hindu minority has approached the Lahore High Court seeking a directive to the builders to stop the construction of the commercial plaza and reconstruct the temple at the site. The petitioners maintain that the demolition violates section 295 of the Pakistan Penal Code prohibiting the demolition of places of worship.[74]

Re: # 177
If you can not deal with the facts and the arguments, no amount of personal abuse can hide your failure.

There used to be riots in India where Muslims fought back, but that hasn't been the case for decades now. The RSS has perfected the art of killing innocent Muslims with the active connivance, even support of the state, as happened in Gujarat.

As to the Indian criminal justice system, even India analyst B. Raman has acknowledged its inherent unfairness toward the Muslim minority. Muslims are routinely jailed on trumped up charges and languish in prisons, as documented by Yoginder Sikand who looked at many states including Maharashtra, Tamil Nadu, Andhra. While making up 11% of the population, Muslims account for 40% of India’s prison population. Here's a quote from a recent article by Sikand:

"America's 'global war on terror' has provided a convenient cover to the Hindutva lobby and to fiercely anti-Muslim elements within the Indian state machinery to launch a concerted campaign of terror against Muslims. Large numbers of Muslims in various parts of India continue to languish in jails on trumped-up terror charges, suffering brutal torture as well as routine insults to their religion by police officials. Meanwhile, Hindu terrorists, often in league with the police and the state machinery, are allowed to run riot, unleashing violence and bloodshed on a frightening scale, while the state, the police and the courts take no firm action against them."

There is systematic housing and employment discrimination. In spite of 11% population, Muslims hold only 5% of government jobs, as documented by Sacahar. RSS cronies have infiltrated deep into the government and other institutions.

Even high-profile Muslims like Shabana Azmi can not choose to live wherever they like in Mumbai. There are no-go areas/neighborhoods in major cities where Muslims can not even rent, much less own. The real estate offer "no-Muslas" as a feature of some of the apartment buildings and neighborhoods.

Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

How many Forced Conversions your mulah jamaat is going to indulge in before your supremacism is finally defeated??

Hindu women have also been known to be victims of kidnapping and forced conversion to Islam.[68] Krishan Bheel, a Hindu member of the National Assembly of Pakistan, came into the news recently for manhandling Qari Gul Rehman after being taunted with a religious insult.[69]

On October 18, 2005, Sanno Amra and Champa, a Hindu couple residing in the Punjab Colony, Karachi, Sindh returned home to find that their three teenage daughters had disappeared. After inquiries to the local police, the couple discovered that their daughters had been taken to a local madrassah, had been converted to Islam, and were denied unsupervised contact with their parents.

Paki Jehadi Alumni Worldwide ji,

How may more kafirs and mushrques you are going to kill through your jehad before your thirst for blood of kafirs would end??

Riaz ul Haq

The increasing Islamisation of Pakistan and antagonism against a majority Hindu. Pakistan has forced many Hindus to leave Hinduism and convert to Islam[citation needed]. Such Islamisation include the blasphemy laws, which make it dangerous for religious minorities to express themselves freely and engage freely in religious and cultural activities. The promulgation of Sharia, Quranic law has also increased the marginalization of Hindus and other minorities. Following the destruction in 1992 of the Babri Mosque in India, riots and persecution of Hindus in retaliation has only increased; Hindus in Pakistan are routinely affected by communal incidents in India and violent developments on the Kashmir conflict between the two nations. It remains the hope of many that a permanent peace between the two nations will go a long way in making life better for the roughly 3 million Hindus living in Pakistan. The 1998 census recorded 2,443,614 Hindus in Pakistan. Reports from Pakistan indicate that Hindu minorities under Taliban rule in Swat are being forced to wear Red headgear such as turbans to make it easier for the Islamic militants to target them for discrimination. In light of these deprivations, Pakistani Hindu minorities have started fleeing to India.

Pakistani hindus are the worst of all the dhimmis. Remember the Hindu worker who was murdered for asking morewages? It its like oliver twist asking fort more!!

As per Islami nizam of Pukistan a dhimmi hindu cannott establisha temple without asking for permission from Paki ulemas. The communal violence of the 1940s and the subsequent persecutions have resulted in the destruction of thousands of Hindu temples in Pakistan, although the Hindu community and the Pakistani government have preserved and protected many prominent ones. The Hindu Gymkhana in Karachi has tried to promote social development for Hindus in the city. One of the few temples remaining in Karachi today is the Shri Swaminarayan Mandir, Karachi.

Hindus are allotted separate electorates to vote by, but their political importance is virtually nil[citation needed]. The Pakistan Hindu Panchayat and the Pakistani Hindu Welfare Association are the primary civic organizations that represent and organize Hindu communities on social, economic, religious and political issues.

I think u r not gainfully employed after ur whatever degree. U loser.

175, Riaz, U r a bloody spammer. Any reply to u is a waste but

Do u think Muslims in India are cowards. Riots is a two-way thing & it has the history of AIML engineering hundreds of them to galvanise Indian Muslims. Pakistan is secured but the after-effects of Jinnah's politics are still continuing in India.

' RSS... it has literally destroyed almost the entire Indian Muslim community by systematic discrimination, constant threats of violence, killing and jailing, high levels of poverty and illiteracy, denial of housing and employment, etc. Indian Muslims live in a constant state of fear.'

How RSS can discriminate, jail, deny housing & employment
to Muslims? Gujarat is a basket case but law is catching up with the criminal there.

Discrimination is Pakistan is institutionalised in the name of Islam but there's nothing that formally discriminates Muslims or any other community in India.

Where did u get ur education?

Re: # 173

major...though exact figures have to be sorted out...however there must be difference between a bunch of criminals backed by foreigners causing disruption amidst people, and people electing a bunch of racists to do their dirty bidding and commit wholesale pogrom and then enjoy high elected positions for years on end...and yes lots of Indian Muslims have continued to trickled into Pakistan...but then what would you know you are just a major in the army I suppose and your brains might be shaken a bit too hard by thumping your heels too hard on the ground saluting senior officers, yes sir no sir, three bags full sir.

Re: # 173
The Sangh Parivar has not just killed tens of thousands of Muslims in various organized riots in India, it has literally destroyed almost the entire Indian Muslim community by systematic discrimination, constant threats of violence, killing and jailing, high levels of poverty and illiteracy, denial of housing and employment, etc. Indian Muslims live in a constant state of fear.

Tens of thousands continue to languish in refugee camps after Gujarat riots, too afraid to return to their homes because the killers are still in charge of the state.

After looking at the horrible conditions of Indian-Muslims, Indian-American journalist Asra Nomani recently called Muslims India's new untouchables.

In addition to Asra and the Sachar Commission report, a number of Indian Hindu writers including Yoginder Sikand and Pankaj Mishra written about and documented the terrible plight of their fellow Muslim citizens of India.

Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Salim - rape of you grand-mom by bedouins happened a long time ago, get over it already...how long are you going hold a grudge against hindoos for not protecting your grandmom?...

also - America may be named after Vespucci- but there is no Vespucci Day, there is the Columbus Day... Everybody knows who discovered America, despite the name... Likewise, everybody knows who invented number system, despite the name...

Get over it...

Re: # 172 GF

so what?... india still hasn't killed as many muslims as you have pakis have, I mean, not even close... hindoos have destroyed altogether one mosque - you pakis bomb mosques on a weekly basis... muslims in india may have issues, but not nearly as much as muslims in pakiland do...

Have you seen muslims lining up to move to pakiland or bdesh?... But we see muslims from bdesh sneaking into india in hordes...

You pakis have no leg to stand on as far as lives of muslims are concerned... save the outrage...

Re: # 170

harish...there is a general under current of hatred which leads to such pogroms...people who hate elect people who further their cause of hatred...this seething hatred is evident even from posts of sundry interacts on these boards towards their gigantic minority ...however since there is such a huge population of the Muslim minority in India it goes to their credit that a very few talented ones do manage to rise to the top...I have heard that during times when political tensions between the stupid ones of indo-Pak rise, people like Dilip Kumar etc are threatened with dire consequences...generally the Muslims, the former rulers of India, now rank even below the so-called lowest castes...and they say they live their lives in sort of fear and try to conform to a sort of politically correct behaviour...thus how many more talented must be going by the wayside? I'm reminded of the Thomas Gray:

"Full many a gem of purest ray serene
The dark unfathom'd caves of ocean bear:
Full many a flower is born to blush unseen,
And waste its sweetness on the desert air."

Re: # 169
BJ2...
I think Vengat had cleared this misconception...
Why everyone in a society have to know everything!!! Indian civilisation was the first, where people emphasied on spcialization of skills and caste system was product of that. If knowledge sharing was/is a problem, how come India excelled in many fields and kept the leadership for centuries...
Without a fair social system in place, it is almost impossible to build University like Nalanda.

Now the paradigm changed, and the infrastructure is not enough to cater the need of so many people in India....
I have read one writing from Rabindranath Tagore...Even people of his time, used to critisize him for not doing enough for the poor and commoners...
His answer was
"If Kalidasa would have concentrated on writing books on Alphabets keeping in mind about the peasants of Ujjain, the peasants might have learned something extra, but Sanskrit literature would have lost several gems..."

My question is
Do everyone need to learn mathematics?
Do everyone need to learn medicine?

I am from rural area and still connected with my hometown...
The people, who works in the field and now take land on lease and cultivate, are very happy with what they are...

Surely yaar GF, if you believe that large scale pogroms are the norm (as opposed to my belief that they are exceptions) in India, how do you explain the rise of so many great talented minorities in India? How do you explain the Abdul Kalams, AR Rahmans, Shahrukh Khans and Irfan Pathans? All of them rose to dizzying heights from extremely humble circumstances?

Re: # 168

miaN, past glories are not sufficient to live on. It has been 60 years since the British left, why are there so few libraries all across India? IMHO, the answer is simple -- Indians by and large are diriven by a sense of individual profit and don't care for sharing knowledge -- mostly so can hoard it for individual profit. So, there may be gurus from time to time but they leave few chelas.

Re: # 166
GF...
You have not answered yet...
It is the matter of establishing a well defined system and culture to produce better result in any field (be it literature, science and mathematics...)...Indians, theorugh their better culture created that and they produced series of mathematicians....It is not matter of individual effort, only...

In one post, someone put it, how it is impossible for an islamic society to produce better result in mathematics and science...now go and bang your head on nearest mosque floor and shouting in arabic...Abdus Salam has to leave Pakistan to carry out further research....

BJ2...
Indians created earliest of the education systems, starting with GuruKul, then PathShalas, then Vidyapeeths and then Mahavidyalayas....Individual talent can not produce

a) well structured literature
b) well structured grammar
b) contigious improvement in astronomy
c) contigious improvement in mathematics

etc. etc....

After 11th/12th century, all these education infrastructure ( like destruction of Nalanda Mahavidyalaya or Kashi Vidyapeeth) and system ( ruler used to promote these stuff, when ,money stopped flowing into these institutes, it dried up) got destroyed. When Brits came, there was nothing left, on which, India has unique advantage...
Those who blame, brits for suppressing Indian form of education, should remember that, Indian intellectuals preferred British form of education than anything else.Vidyasagar was given responsibility to form education policy of Bengal, which was replicated later, throughout India (including pakistan). Though he was studied in PathShala, he was happy to adopt British form of Education, due to it's advancement....
Bihar and UP is ravaged place...You should visit Mutts in South India...That may give fair share of idea, how well organisezed Indian system was at one time....

There is a book written by Will Durant on History
"The Story of Civilization"

On an individual basis, there certainly has never been a shortage of talent, originality and creativity among Indians for ages – not only in Math but in virtually every field. The trouble, the way I see it – has always been the insufficient documentation and sharing of knowledge to preserve it after a "genius" passes away and an inability to pass it on to future generations. Even to this day, library facilities in my small Bihar town are between pathetic to non-existent. Hopefully, the internet would be of help in preserving the current and future knowledge without a fear of the archives getting destroyed through man-made or natural causes.

Re: # 163

nkg...you silly little turd...reread my response # 158 again and burn...there is no other truth...gifted and talented people are born the world over...even in the remote crevices of Africa...India should have had many times more because of 1.5 billion population...shame that they don't...only the likes of you are typical product of Indian education...gutter mouth and horrid bigotry...thats all.

Re: # 162

harish...actually my point is that if pogroms and mass exterminations of minorities are undertaken by responsible and elected government officials in the first place, how can great talent like Dr. Salam rise to the top from those minorities? Numerous such talent must, I'm sure, be snuffed out in the bud in the very beginning even before getting chance to be mistreated after great accomplishment. That is all I wanted to say, without veering off the subject.

Re: # 161
GF,
with so many progroms, % of muslim population in India is increasing higher than national average...
The non moslem population in Pakistan dropped from 15%-20% to 2% now...
Can you please justify that?

Re: # 158
gf...
rascal...
You know the question,the context and the answer very well...so you are concentrating in what Abdus Salam did, without admitting the truth...

Abdus Salam is a Physicist and he won Nobel for his work on Nuclear Physics, with 2 others from US and Europe...
The subject and the work have no connection with Pakistan or Arab or Islam or any influence from one of these three...

I am framing the question again...If you can answer, please do it properly...

If arabs/moslems were masters in mathematics, why Pakistan ( with 900 years of arabic/islamic influence) failed to produce a single notable mathematican, without US/EU help/influence?


Here is the example of Bhaskara II and Madhava,in Indian context...They have carried out their work purely in India and without any external assistance,inspiration and influence....a work purely Indian....

#159 by Goldfinger

GF yaar, I thought we were talking about recognition of talent? If you remember, we were talking about the horrendous treatment Dr. Abdus Salam received at the hands of the Paki establishment and how Pakis lost a golden opportunity to work with and learn from one of the premier physicists of his time. You said such things happen in India as well to which I replied that at least I wasn't aware of a case where a scientist or researcher was meted out such treatment merely because of his religious beliefs.

You're going completely off track if you bring up Gujarat and pogroms.

Re: # 145

harish...so are you telling me that pogroms to cleanse India of minorities do not occur from time to time? That those who master minded the mass scale extermination of minorities in Gujrat, and other places did not occupy high official positions in the Indian government?

Re: # 145

harish...so are you telling me that pogroms to cleanse India of minorities do not occur from time to time? That those who master minded the mass scale extermination of minorities in Gujrat, and other places did not occupy high official positions in the Indian government?

Re: # 145

harish...so are you telling me that pogroms to cleanse India of minorities do not occur from time to time? That those who master minded the mass scale extermination of minorities in Gujrat, and other places did not occupy high official positions in the Indian government?

Re: # 143

nkg...if you wish to continue with your immature silliness...ok Dr. Salam won Nobel Prize in Physics...science and genius fortunately do not belong to the bastion of bigots like yourself...so in what way do you wish to compare the achievements of Dr. Salam with the gentlemen you named, and in what way do they take away from or add to the achievements of each?

Re: # 151
cobra...
"For pakis Indian classical music, architecture, civilization and the whole enchilada would not habe been possible without the "Muslim" influence..."

oh realy!!!!anyhow, how these muslas are doing now in Classical music, painting and architecture?
Who invited them to India?
Is there any evidence that Indians travelled to arab land to learn these stuff? (to the best of my knowledge -none...)
I think, it is the Meenakshi mandir of Madurai, where each piller group generates sounds of different musical instruments and each piller of that group makes sound of one of the octates...Now, does these Pakis/muslas claim such stuff in arab land or it is arabs built Meenakshi temple!!!!!

Natural disposal has one advantage id flexibility joints wheretop of thigh is attached to main body and knees.
Most western peoples knees and above joints are frozen and rusted and they can not use natural ways. I have even asked my students when they come to visit their young children can sit is natural position their all knee and joints are rusted by in action and become immobile. Dr Shankar etc can comment.

Dr.Shankar and Malik Rashid... Thanks for you comments.
Thanks for understanding proper waste disposal going in nonbig cities. One should not create problem if it is not there. Hundreds of gallaons water will wasted to transport few Kg of liquids and solid wastes. We have no water in big cities like Karachi where tanker Mafia operates. Water is to precious ( water availability has reduced from 2100 m3 to about 500m3 in pakistan and with increase in population in next 30 years will be 250m3).
New crazy idea most damaging released by west on our lands is drinking water in plastic bottles.
As usual our population have picked wasteful harming ways.

Pinku, so long as mohajirs are there they will keep this ummaite identity alive.

#151 Posted by Cobra on

Unfortunately, even in music and whatever it was those hindus who either became muslims like tansen and his descendants and many others, or who taught them music.

All I can say is, in the long run, if Pakistanis depend on Arabic ego/identity, they will get beaten very hard. Only in short term they can fool themselves, sooner or later people will simply accept facts without caring who is who.

Too many spelling mistakes to correct. :(

For pakis Indian classical music, architecture, civilization and the whole enchilada would not habe been possible without the "Muslim" influence. Muslim is a codeword for Arabs of course. And now these sly efforts to take credit for our Mathematical advancements… They would rather take pride in al-andalusians successes than of their own ancestors. That fact alone separates them from Persians.

I mean, how much more boot liker can you become! They just didn't embraces the new religion they also adopted the new identity. And now Arabs have hijacked Islam for pan Arabism and these fools are too blind to see that! They are just happy to provide cannon fodder to "the cause". Where else would you see a British-Pakistani youth killing himself and fellow Britons for the alleged sufferings of Palestinians; Or Riyazes of this forum taking it as a personal insult when you call names to Arabs?

What is Pakistan without it’s Arabic identity?

Re: # 136 Masadi Sahib with regards, I have great regards for you for not following same beaten path and not accepting american western as your masters mentally like Mr. T and Peon of west..
I have problems with eye sight and mental depression and I miss my daughters they have to move for their families. Have you heard Dislexcia.
I do not make fun of any body it is my nature . I always do what I can do and encourage good thoughts and deeds. I have NO appreciation for majority when they do not do good deeds saying that is too small and they they do any big for is too big for them. For me to believe is too act, I do every day small acts of kindness for is is my way.
Presently also in Ref#44 people are drawing wrong conclusions regarding waste disposal. If one is not living in large cities existing sewage treatment of nature is fine. It is foolish to coolect solid and liquid wastes and reat probems. It is like a very bad practice introduced by Europeans to drink bottled water most wasteful way and elites fighting for Saving nature in conferences are aming more problems. I have freat empathy for handicapped people even animals. Some times I find "strange" things and I say little different way than You or others its just way nothing more less. Yes I can agree people are different and they have ways just like sparrow moves in air different than eagle.
I have no knowledge as have never been to west but I imagine from what my students tell me. There is one thing to think and see things by eyes.
I do not want to make fun of anybody or people making "group attacks" on people , they are bogots and perverts, pervert is pervert even if he wears suit boot and has foreign residence.
As you feel I make fun of misery of people I will introspect my self that is bad thing . I will think carefully what you have suggested. If I made mistake is inadvertently only and sorry about tht.
Good day to everybody.

#148 Posted by nkg on
nkg,
Both Musharraf and Zardari are such examples. They use very simple logic for a result of billion dollars.
As you see here on chowk, almost everybody defending Pakistan or Islam is an amazing mathematician, they can use very simple mathematics to prove that either their grandfathers were not Hindu or they are better of as muslim, if they were.

Sometimes, it is difficult to see solution when it is so interwined with the problem and that is the case with both Islam and PAkistan. They are the complete solution for calculating all kind of infinite series.

Nobel prize committe will take a long time to understand these simple yet powerful proofs. You just wait!

Rest if you need more details check with Pervez Hoodbhoy, if he is busy we can check with Pervez Musharraf, he can give an almost free lecture (nominal cost) on almost anything.

pinku...
my question was simple...
Arabs/Muslims were masters in mathematics. Pakistan is under influence of arab/islam for more than 900 years. So, naturaly, Pakistan should have produced number of notable mathematicians;may not be like that of arabs, but at least few during this period...Madhav,Bhaskara II etc. were from Kerala and Karnataka and were not product of european education system. Their achievemnt is pure Indian one...I was looking for such example from Pakistan...

Though irrelevant in this context...
Please read the first comment...
http://www.expressindia.com/latest-news/First-signs-of-thaw-in-India Pak-26-11-freeze/477269/

Though irrelevant in this context...
Please read the first comment...
http://www.expressindia.com/latest-news/First-signs-of-thaw-in-India Pak-26-11-freeze/477269/

#84 by Goldfinger

...and don't tell me such things never ever happen in India.

Yep yaar GF, I can confidently say such things never happen in India. I mean no matter what the religion, if a man has talent and can put it to good use, he can make a name for himself.

If you know of any instance that proves otherwise, I am willing to stand corrected.

#141 Posted by Salim_Chauhan on
People always know that somebopdy is screwing somebody else, willingly or unwillingly, but all they want to know is "who screwed whom". Here the problem is that non arab muslims deny that fact violently (though they themselves are the proof of who got screwed).

#143 Posted by nkg on June
nkg, Panini was a hindu from pakistan, a shiva bhakht, but his later generation got screwed and you ended up with punjabi and sindhi muslims.

gf...
you are still skirting the issue...

Was Abdus Salam a methematician? No..If it is yes, please prove it...
Was his work influenced by arabic mathematics? No...
He carried out his work in nuclear physics, which has nothing arabic in it and a product of eauropean science...
You find someone like Ramanujan and Madhava in Pakistan and show me....

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The issue of whether the Hindoos invented the zero or the Arabic numerals, and other important advances in mathematics is irrelevant. The fact is that the Arabs chronicled these findings and thus gave their name to sifar (cipher) and the Arabic numerals. As heartbreaking as it may seem, the one who files the patent reaps the rewards.

Columbus "discovered" the "New" World, even though there were already human beings living all over those lands. Even Columbus got ripped off when Americus Vespucci wrote about the "new" continents, which were aptly named after him, giving us the Americas - both North and South. Thus, the United States of America honor Vespucci while poor Chris is left with DC - not many know that it stands for District of Columbia.

So like the "Indians" of the "New" World, the Indians of the old one got screwed. Arabs got zero and Hindoos got what Al-Khwarizmi's parrot left on the rock.

Re: # 128 coolAL, (and giani_240 sundry posts)

When you lose the argument you resort to hurling personal abuses?!

Re: # 137
ginani,
Instead of contradicting or challenging my posts with any useful data or arguments, you engage in personal attacks on me, question my honesty and intellect and then go on to lie about my record of interacts on Chowk. Under these circumstances, what do you hope to accomplish by continuing any dialog on Chowk or at Shalimar? It makes absolutely no sense to me.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 134

Masadi, was it the local mullah or the gora sahib (now that would explain a lot) or fellow cab drivers in NYC that did a number on you.

Guess I should leave Hamid to deal with you

Re: # 135

Riaz Mian,

show me a post where i called you name. Dont do that kind of thing it defeats the purpose. The problem with you is that you are intellectually dishonest. You dont quote your sources, you dont provide references - is it because you are scared that your sources are themselves discredited?

You quote gross statistics you prove your point when a any socialogist or economist will tell you that per capita numbers prove the rule

You refuse to answer any questions that are directly asked of you and you have this habit of dredging up bits and pieces that tend to show Hindus in a poor light. It is your delight in doing the later that gives me inspiration to show what a ignormaous you are.

Nothing personal. I am sure we could do lunch in shalimar next week - u game ?

Madani sahib you know you are not who you are pretending to be, you can make the same points as your real self without trying to mock our people using the kind of English you are using which is often given away by one or two high strung phrases. All your points are lost when in reality you are poking fun on the victims...

TNITC masadi

Re: # 131
giani,
I can see that you, along with your fellow two-bit bigots on Chowk, are really hyperventilating now. It's clear that your bunch lacks the necessary knowledge and the intellectual depth to deal with the serious questions about your Hindu faith and traditions, but any discussion of it sets your rear ends on fire. So you resort to personal insults and namecalling. What a shame!
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

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madaniji,
#44

your post was a classic. Your humility & honesty are your biggest assets.
You are right. We NRIs & NRPs have this romanticized view of our roots & have a nasty habit of arguing about whose gutter is better.

Re: # 121

Masadi, I am like Anil. I dont like banning and dont like red flagging anything. Its so moronic. I would rather have mirth at seeing you make an ass of yourself repeatedly

Re: # 113
Riaz Mian,

It seems i have touched a raw nerve and I may not be the first one to have raised Intellectual Honesty issues with you. Would seem that this issue has come up in your past as well !!!!

Re: # 124

Malik You are right IMHO. The issue is how to fight it. I havent seen any answers yet and I dont claim to have any either.

Re: # 114
Masadi, now you are showing your aukat :). Live long and prosper.

I love it when people show their true colors.

The reference you idotic crapola was to the fact that you were sitting on what you call brains. Guess you are still sitting on them

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Re: # 125
you make a valid argument. the lamenting of hindu/muslim or india/pakistan for their social standards or moral superiority over one another is pointless. i agree.

#123 We can all drink to that (non-alcoholic Mecca Cola, of course, being pious people).

#124 they are looked down upon because of social precident in a society that is feudal in outlook whose feudalism is maintained by the West through avenues I mentioned. When forces greater than those for change are keeping a nation backward then it will remain backward and its working class will be looked down upon- if you lose sight of the real causes your lamenting any lamenting becomes worthless...

TNITC masadi

Re: # 115
Respectfully sir, without intending to jumpstart a competition here, please tell me if my observation is wrong:
Working poor are looked down upon in India and Pakistan.
There is a lack of compassion towards the weak and vulnerable. Crowd mentality in India and Pakistan is lethal. The self-righteous fundamentalists/fascists have enough clout to become the judge and the executioner.

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Mr. Masadi: I hear Musharraf's papa had four legs.

I did not red-flag your post, Mr. Masadi. Honest.

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malikrashid writes "The pant wearing saheb looks at villagers who defecate in the open as un-civilized without checking the health of the river that is dying because of big cities and factories."

What about looking at the real cause of the problems of a growing population due to lack of health care, education and poverty that leads directly to the dependent relationship the colonial powers of old have forced us into through perverting our institutions, supporting the military and when all else fails through "shock and awe".

TNITC masadi

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Re: # 112

Heard of it. It lays down the recommended ways to achieve a perfect life. However, it is not considered a holy book for the Hindus nor is it advocated nor is it followed.

You should really answer my question on Intellectual Honesty - is it accidental or by choice?

Re: # 110
Have you heard about Manusmrti? What does it codify?
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 100
Masadi,
I agree. The context in which the Quran was revealed and the revolutionary changes in Arab behavior it brought about were astounding at the time. Whether it is the rights of women, rights of inheritance, rules of warfare, treatment of prisoners, codification of the rules of finance, charity, wealth re-distribution, private ownership, etc., it was a a wholesale change.

Unfortunately, the process and Ijtihad, also embedded in Islam to update rules/codes to respond to the changing needs of time, have been completely discarded by the Mullahs and replaced by orthodoxy and rigidity that are uncharacteristic of early or even medieval Islam. This has resulted in stagnation and decline of Muslims around the world.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 109

Riaz Mian,

You just proved my point. Unlike Islam, there is nothing codified in Hinduism. It is all rituals which i have seen change and be accepted in my lifetime.

You protray yourself as a respectable person - someone with great knowledge. I do not have a personal problem with you. Just with what you post with authority and a holier than thou attititude. Thats all.

I feel sorry for ignoramuses. I detest Hypocrites. Which one do you think you are?

Re: # 107
giani,
Unable to effectively respond to or contradict what I posted, you resort to the oldest, cheapest trick in the book: Attack the messenger by questioning his/her credibility. I guess I shouldn't expect anything better you!!

People familiar with Hindu religion all know that caste and gender roles are all codified in the books, and the traditions based on such codes continue to present major obstacles in creating a truly democratic, pluralistic and egalitarian society in India. Whitewashing facts, as done in Indian textbooks, or attempted in California, will not change the facts or the history itself.

Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 106
Thanks for accepting the wastefulness of a slanderous conversation. I was trying to portray the present which is as deplorable as the past. De-humanizing others is perhaps the greatest flaw in our moral character. It springs out of medieval and ancient practise of looking at others as enemies. Indian/Pakistani individuals working menial jobs in US, England or Canada might face racism at times but they do not face contemptuous attitude of others because of their position in society. It is considered bad manners to raise your voice to a waiter or a butler. The story of the river Indus is a great example. The pant wearing saheb looks at villagers who defecate in the open as un-civilized without checking the health of the river that is dying because of big cities and factories.

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Re: # 103

hi Malik, it is suprising what 5 minutes on google can turn up with the "appropriate" keywords. However, your point which i whole heartedly endorse is that as readers /posters on chowk, we are basically "educated" and should strive to improve the relationships between the two communities and countries etc.

There is enough crap in history or these times for us to waste our energies.

I dont care what happened in 1947 or before - it is not going to change. Shouldnt the motley crew on this forum at least make an effort to move forward?

My observation is that knowledge (other then the one dispensed in western style schools and colleges) in general is jealously guarded and used as a tool of power for self preservation and rule over others. This observation of course is limited to Pakistan and I am assuming it to be true for the entire subcontinent. Even today the nais (barbers) who also double as cooks at weddings, guard their recipes from one generation to the next. The guru and chayla, karigar (professional) and chota (apprentice) are relationships based upon exacting a price (khidmat) for imparting knowledge which is handed out in dribs and drabs depending upon the mood of the knower.

This perhaps is the greatest difference between other civilizations and the Hindu one. The Arabs knew nothing so when they ended up having to rule this vast empire that they accumulated they gained knowledge from every where, translated every book that they could find which resulted in a great renaissance that lasted for several centuries. Of course it was cut short by religious orthodoxy which has stilted it ever since. The Chinese too developed knowledge but in the end it was all curbed because it was disturbing and challenging the political order in some ways similar to the Muslims. In the end we have to fall back to the Greeks because that is where the scientific method, a mode of enquiry originated, flowered and bloomed over a number of centuries, where Plato’s Academy an institution of learning lasted for five hundred years. Where Aristotle set up the Lyceum and single handedly invented science as it is today and after him there was no comparable professional science enterprise for over 2000 years.

The West has laid claim to Greek heritage as their own but they have as much right to it as we do. The key though in all this is to overcome our political and religious baggage, the West did it through an evolutionary process by first merging Christian teachings with Platonic thought and later on taking that one solitary line out of the Bible “Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s, and unto God the things that are God’s� which seperates church and state. Church and state is problem for Abrahamic faiths and where as it has become a huge issue for Muslim countries but still China and India which adhere to a different tradition have other impediments.In India the caste system which continues to morph itself although heroic attempts made to end it. Same is true of China where the rulers would do anything preserve their positions of power and privilege.

Hindu Mathematics:

The purpose of a heading is to communicate to the reader what the writer intends to convey in the body of his article. Now what should the heading be for the history of mathematics that emanated out of this particular civilization. Calling it Indian would include all the influences which others had i.e. Greek, Muslim or British etc who ended up affecting the future growth of this field to the extent that it is unrecognizable today from its past. Identifying it as Hindi would make it language based which leaves Hindu perhaps not the most accurate of terms but appropriate because it refers to the civilization and philosophy that originated from this particular people.

Re# 82& 92
Both of you gentlemen have done valuable research into how backwards your ancestors were.
Let me tell you how backwards we are today.
Any poor Pakistani/Indian who does not read or write English is seen as illiterate. Somebody serving us like a Quli, a rickshaw-puller, taxi-driver, shoe-shine boy, waiters are treated with contempt. Some do not mind slapping them while they are being served. The needs of the poor are never seen as human needs. Be it education, wages or health-care, the needs of the rich are never cosidered to be the same as the large numbers of poor. The large numbers of the poor makes them easily lumped into the unfortunate majority that cannot be helped out of their misery. I wonder if religious fatalism plays a part in keeping them poor. How do we treat our women in Delhi or Lahore? Prostitutes and wives must spread their legs for those who pay. Only your own wife or sister can invoke a sense of chivalry and the rest of the women in society are fair game.
Please read carefully interact#44 by Ahmadmadani.

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masadi 4 years now of taking the peons of the West to the dhobis and mopping the floors of chowk with their sorry a$$ "arguments".....and they keep coming back for more cleaning with the same sorry ass arguments recycled.....tahmed take note

TNITC masadi

Alumni WW, these thugs like giani have never bothered to study the Quran, to note the socio historical context in which that document was revolutionary regarding egalitarianism and women's rights, all these morons can do is go to hate sites pick on some parts and totas of verses plucked from the context, devoid of understanding and interpret them based on Western hypocrisy regarding the issues and then jump up and down like monkeys thinking they have made some point. They make damn fools of themselves and prove nothing...

TNITC masadi

ugh, I see that Riaz-type haters have taken over the list...
what a bunch of twits...it just shows you that education proves nothing...what a bunch of losers..

#97 giani how is it with thugs like you that instead of dealing with a person's arguments you bring parents and children into the discussion. I know it is your saas bahu mentality, the feudalism that affects India more so than it does Pakistan that makes you resort to these tactics but try to control yourself. You feel sorry for Alumni WW because you feel inadequate yourself....

TNITC masadi

p.s before you try responding to this well written deeply thought post by me with your feudalesque BS, note this statement: "Don't F with your intellectual superiors".

Riaz Mian,

I could search the web for more crap - but what does it have to do with the article you say!!!! Nothing at all!!!

You can be funny at times. Why dont you should that you are an intelluctual instead of indulging in making chowk such a unpleasant hate mongering place to visit. Or is it your being and your upbringing that prevents this from happening
?
Wonder what you taught your kids inspite of living in the USA.

I really feel sorry for you buddy.

Re: # 82

Riazji,

the thing about Kallars' female infanticide is very much true...its practiced by the Kallar community living around Usilampatti. These kallars are Piramalai Kallars and they werent the warrior clan...

its the Kallars of Tanjore that were warriors and they are civilized. So I would not accept your broad brushing as all Kallars as royals or child killers...

Even today the Piramalai Kallars are a source of great worry for the rest of the population...

Piramalai Kallars feed the new born with the extract of cacti...its called 'Kalli' in Tamil, the milk like substance is collected and fed...they would also stuff the girl kids throat with unchaffed rice grain which could kill the infant...

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Riaz Mian,

can you post the link to the article you found - I am willing to bet it was written by one of your kind.

Riaz Mian

talking about glass houses i came across this

Contrary to common belief of the Muslims, Islam did not improve not even �a little� the status of women in Arabia. It actually denigrated them instead of elevating them. There are many proofs to that and one of the evidences can be found in this hadith.

Bukhari Volume 3, Book 43, Number 648:
Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Abbas:
I had been eager to ask 'Umar about the two ladies from among the wives of the Prophet regarding whom Allah said (in the Qur'an saying): If you two (wives of the Prophet namely Aisha and Hafsa) turn in repentance to Allah your hearts are indeed so inclined (to oppose what the Prophet likes) (66.4), till performed the Hajj along with 'Umar (and on our way back from Hajj) he went aside (to answer the call of nature) and I also went aside along with him carrying a tumbler of water. When he had answered the call of nature and returned. I poured water on his hands from the tumbler and he performed ablution. I said, "O Chief of the believers! ' Who were the two ladies from among the wives of the Prophet to whom Allah said:

'If you two return in repentance (66.4)? He said, "I am astonished at your question, O Ibn 'Abbas. They were Aisha and Hafsa."

Then 'Umar went on relating the narration and said. "I and an Ansari neighbor of mine from Bani Umaiya bin Zaid who used to live in 'Awali Al-Medina, used to visit the Prophet in turns. He used to go one day, and I another day. When I went I would bring him the news of what had happened that day regarding the instructions and orders and when he went, he used to do the same for me. We, the people of quraish, used to have authority over women, but when we came to live with the ansar, we noticed that the ansari women had the upper hand over their men, so our women started acquiring the habits of the ansari women. Once i shouted at my wife and she paid me back in my coin and i disliked that she should answer me back.She said, 'Why do you take it ill that I retort upon you? By Allah, the wives of the Prophet retort upon him, and some of them may not speak with him for the whole day till night.' What she said scared me and I said to her, 'Whoever amongst them does so, will be a great loser.' �

(This is a long Hadith; please read all of it in my article Maryiah the Coptic Maid.)

As you see here Umar is complaining that while the people of Quraish, used to have �authority� over their women, since they came to Medina they noticed that the Ansari women had the upper hand over their men.

Mecca was a religious hub. In all religious centers, often fanaticism overrides commonsense and wherever religion has a stronger grip, women are discriminated. Mecca was no exception. It was natural that women in Mecca had a lower status than their Jews and Ansari counterparts and when they encountered the liberty that the women of Medina enjoyed, they wanted it too. This of course did not sit well with Umar and Muhammad, the two misogynist men of Mecca. The above conversation between these two central figures of Islam clearly shows that they were not pleased to see their wives getting used and enjoying the taste of freedom.

Arabs were not used to write their history. Very little is left of their pre Islamic culture and way of life. What the Muslim historian wrote of that time is all derogatory calling it the days of ignorance "jahiliya" and claiming that until the advent of Islam they were barbarians, who buried their daughters alive and were constantly in war. They say that women prior to Islam were worth less than camels and it was the Prophet who gave them the status of human being. The above hadith however tell us a different story. We can see that Arab women everywhere, except in Mecca, had more rights that Islam took them away. And it shows that the dismal treatment of women in Islam is not a Divine mandate but is how the Qurash used to treat their women. The Prophet being from Quraish himself was used to that kind of women abuse and to him that was the right way. Naturally he projected his is bias against women in his religion and his book.

But there is also another factor that played a great role in the destiny of Muslim women; and that is the impact that the wives of the Prophet had on the Quran and its laws about women.

Anytime that the Prophet needed to say the ultimate word and make others shut up, he would make his Allah reveal a verse. He was an old man, having a harem of almost 20 wives and concubines. All of his wives were young and beautiful (Except the first two, Kadijah and Saudah, whom he married when he was a poor man). In his old age he became the chieftain and very powerful. So he could afford to marry anyone and some even came and offered themselves to him. He would choose only the pretty ones. But political power is not a substitute to physical stamina. The Prophet was fully aware of the age gap between his young wives and himself. He was jealous of other young men looking at them and would warn his wives to not betray him.

33.30
O Consorts of the Prophet! If any of you were guilty of evident unseemly conduct, the Punishment would be doubled to her, and that is easy for Allah.

31. But any of you that is devout in the service of Allah and His Messenger, and works righteousness,- to her shall We grant her reward twice: and We have prepared for her a generous Sustenance.

He would often remind them to behave in a way as not to attract the attention of other men and cover themselves as not to make themselves desired by strangers.

32. O Consorts of the Prophet! Ye are not like any of the (other) women: if ye do fear (Allah), be not too complacent of speech, lest one in whose heart is a disease should be moved with desire: but speak ye a speech (that is) just.

33. And stay quietly in your houses, and make not a dazzling display, like that of the former Times of Ignorance; and establish regular Prayer, and give regular Charity; and obey Allah and His Messenger. And Allah only wishes to remove all abomination from you, ye members of the Family, and to make you pure and spotless.

The above clearly shows the worries of an aging man concerned of numerous young and attractive wives. He needed to control them and that is why he ordered them to cover themselves. ironically what was originally meant for the wives of the Prophet became part of the Sharia and was imposed for 1400 years in all Islamic countries.

The Prophet (pbuh) repeatedly emphasized to women the importance of obeying their husbands. Did this too have something to do with the fact that most of his wives were teenagers that he needed to control? They perhaps would not listen to him but they sure would have no choice but to submit to what Allah said. So when he had some domestic problems his Allah would rush to his rescue and reveal verses the the following to put all his wives in their place.

Q. 66: 5.
"It may be if he divorced you (all) that his Lord will give him instead of you, wives better than you, Muslims (who submit to All�h), believers, obedient to All�h, turning to All�h in repentance, worshipping All�h sincerely, fasting or emigrants (for All�h's sake), previously married and virgins. �

The truth that women in Arabia had more liberty and authority before Islam than after it can also be evinced from the fact that Khadijah, the Prophet�s first wife had a business of her own and had many men at her service. Muhammad, in fact was but one of her employees. Do we have any tale of women after Islam, running their own business and hiring men to work for them?

For Muhammad (pbuh) women were nothing more than sex objects. It is reported that he refused to shake hands with them. And when they came to give their allegiance he delegated Umar for a such task. What is so sexual about a simple shake hand? Perhaps the Prophet was torn between his sexual impulses and his religious ideals. Something must have happened in his mind that made him feel guilty when he touched women.

The holy Prophet also thought that women are deficient in intelligence and the majority of them will go to hell because they are ungrateful, not to Allah, but to their husbands. Here is what he said.


The full article can be found here

http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/sina/women_before_islam.htm

Riaz Mian,

people who live in glass houses should not throw stones

http://www.islam-watch.org/AbulKasem/WomenInIslam/women_in_islam2.htm - talks about how Muslims treat women today.

And if you point out what wrong with our society I don't start frothing at mouth. I know we have bad aspects to our history and I accept it.

You people on the other hand, will try to find Islamic angle to everything.

Look at Persians. They are proud people. They are proud of who they are and their historic achievements independent of advent of Islam. They have a distinct identity and would go to any length to protect that identity (they make it clear in every conversation that they are not Arabs)

You people on the other hand are Arabised more that Arabs themselves. For you the culture began after the arrival of Bin-Quasim tossing out all the advancements that your own ancestors may have contributed to. The advancements that we are happy to claim as our own.

Riyaz, I've no beef if you call out our fallacies. And we had a lot of shit in our texts. Regressive thinking can't be justified. We too are guilty of regressive thinking.

Re: # 86
Cobra,
Are you really dumb or just play dumb when confronted with facts?

Here was your comment (#81) that I responded to:

Cobra: "Bedus must be glad to have such ardent lovers and bedfellows and bedus, like their grate tradition of treating women, treat Pakis the same way. They make a good couple."

Now, was that about Mathematics?
Do you think your half-truths and insults make you immune from strong responses to the nonsense you post? Get a grip on yourself, if you want to be treated with respect.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Riyaz, are you high? This article was about Hindu (read Indian) mathematics and author slyly trying to introduce Islamic angle to it.

Are you posting denigrating texts just to spite us? What has that got to do with the topic at hand?

Our texts have a lot of crappy stuff in'em but it also possess great achievements of human evolutionary mind that bedus can not fathom.

Were Aryans also marrying girls? Why did not they marry 10 or more women instead of killing them? Seems author’s hatred coming right from some Zionist manual. Why is he enclosing Aryan in brackets?

Re: # 75

harish...yes it was bad...which they tried to atone later...but that is why I tell you that hatred and bigotry are terrible things...and don't tell me such things never ever happen in India.

Re: # 78

nkg,

your foolish bigotry will always have the better of you...of course Dr. Salam believed devoutly in his own religious beliefs...whatever they were...and with that in his heart was driven to the highest intellectual accomplishments in his field...the Nobel Prize in Physics...it merely shows what a small human being you are to continuously try to belittle a persons achievements who was clearly a giant in his field...as for your hatred for the Arabic traditions...well why don't you try stopping the millions of your poor workers who go to slave their guts out in the lands of the Arabs doing all those menial janitorial jobs that nobody else would touch with a pole!

Re: # 81
Do you you know about India's Hindu history and tradition of oppressing, denigrating and killing women? Do you that female infanticide and female fetus killing are rampant in Shining India? Here's what you should read:

1.1 VEDIC FEMALE INFANTICIDE
The horrible custom of female infanticide was widely practiced by the barbaric Vedic Aryan tribes who invaded India. It is these Vedic nomads who introduced this depravity into India. The Vedas prescribe an intense hatred for women, and female children were considered highly undesirable in the nomadic Aryan patriarchal view. Indeed, so deep-rooted was the desire for male children that the Vedas prescribe numerous prayers for male offspring :

Atharva Veda.6.2.3 : " Let a female child be born somewhere else; here, let a male child be born."
-- [ Ath.Ved.VI.2.3 ] [ cf. Peri ]

These verses were recited whenever an Aryan couple wished to have a child, and display considerable discrimination against women even in the Vedic age. Nor does the `wonderful' treatment of women in Vedic religion end here. The `holy' and `great' Vedas explicitly sanction the practice of female infanticide. Indeed, the real reason for this truly animal practice lies deep in the blood-stained verses of the Vedas. The following verse, from the `sacred' Vedas of the `noble' faith of Hinduism, allows the practice, and takes it for granted as a normal practice in Vedic religion :
Taittirya Samhita VI.5.10.3 : " Hence they [ Aryans ] reject a female child when born, and take up a male."

-- [ Taitt.Samh.VI.5.10.3 ] [ Muir I 26 ]


What `sweet' verses from the Vedas, the holy guide-book for all Hindus ! No wonder women were not allowed to read these heaps of male chauvinist filth ! Indeed, there are several reasons for the practice of female infanticide during the Vedic Dark Age (1500 BC - 500 BC) of the Brahmanic Dark Ages (1500 BC - 1000 AD), all of which can be traced back to Vedic barbarism :
The large dowries prescribed by the Vedas (see later chapters) implied that female children were solely seen as an economic burden. Such was the state of madness inflicted by the Brahmins that a single female marriage, even today, can ruin an ordinary middle-class family. Obliterating female children was thus a convenient way of alleviating financial ruin in the Vedic period.
Women were of little use to the Aryan war-tribes. Hence, their numbers were reduced in order to maintain the high effectiveness of the Aryan war-machine.
These are the `wonderful' truths about the `most spiritual' religion of Hinduism. The inhuman Hindu female infanticide is not due to any `corruption', but is fully sanctioned by the core of Hindu religious scriptures - the Vedas. This is the truth about the `wonderful' religion of Hinduism.
1.2 LATER BRAHMANIC FEMALE INFANTICIDE
The custom of Vedic female infanticide continued during the Sutric (500 BC - 200 AD) and Puranic Dark Ages (200 AD - 1000 AD) of the Brahmanic Dark Ages (1500 BC - 1000 AD). During this era, the Brahmins consolidated the power they had obtained during the Vedic Dark Age to the height of Absolutism. Any custom which could eat away at the foundations of non-Brahmin peoples was utilised by the Brahmins in order to consolidate their tyranny over the subject populations. Infanticide was one such method which helped preserve Brahminist power, and the population was hence brainwashed with the `holy' Vedas, which prescribe this beastly practice. There were several other reasons why the Brahmins cruelly enforced Vedic female infanticide :

The Brahmin race has always feared being overwhelmed by the sheer numbers of non-Brahmins. Hence they resorted to the harshest means imaginable to curtail non-Brahmin reproduction. To this extent, the Brahmins divided Indian nations into mutually warring factions by means of casteism, enforced the vile customs of sati, hijrahism, devadasism and above all, spread the poison of female infanticide into the veins of the populace. Female infanticide rotted away at the very roots of the non-Brahmin races, many of which disappeared from the face of the Earth. The Indo-Greeks, Bactrians, Panchalas, Koshalas and Saurasenas are only some of the non-Brahmins races exterminated by the Brahmins using various forms of social degenration which included female infanticide.
The shortage of women led to unending wars amongst non-Brahmins for the remaining women. This is amply demonstrated in Rajasthan, where the Brahmin-enforced female infanticide led to male-female ratios of 10:1. As a result, a never-ending series of wars over women devastated the Scythic Rajputs for several centuries. Sessodia fought Chauhan, Kacchwaha fought Bundela and father fought son in fratricidal warfare which reduced Rajasthan to the desert it now is. Had the Rajputs instead tackled the real cause for all their wars and suffering, namely the Brahmins and the Brahmin-inflicted customs of female infanticde and sati, this suffering would not have occurred.
Thus, the `holy' texts of the Vedas sanction apartheid and mass murder of baby girls. The magnitude of this circumstance is staggering: as long as the Vedas are followed, there shall exist immense hardships for women, and the mass murder of children shall continue since these are all prescribed in these `sacred' texts. Since such passages cannot be deleted in modern times, nor can the Vedas be modified, it hence follows that that all Indian feminists must fight against any and all forms of Vedic religion. Unless they do so, Indian women shall forever remain enslaved to Vedic tyranny.
1.3 POISONING, BURIAL AND SUFFOCATION OF INFANT GIRLS
The manner in which the bigoted Brahmins prescribed death for female infants is especially heart-rending. Often, the parents would be forced to cut up the child and then feed the flesh to animals. Othertimes, the child would be smothered by the midwife. Vivekananda himself refers to a painting showing a Hindu woman throwing her children into the Ganges crocodiles which was widely distributed in the West. The `brave' Rajputs would often have to throw up the baby girl, and chop her up with unsheathed swords as she fell. As a result of Brahmin brain-washing, the Rajputs considered it brave to kill their own female children ! No wonder Sanskrit, the language of the `learned' Brahmanas, has not even a single word for chivalry or virtue !
Nor has it stopped here. The Brahmins have perverted modern technology to develop a new variety of female infanticide, namely female foeticide, which is now spreading rapidly in Brahmin-Occupied India. In Tamil Nadu it is now resorted to, in addition to the time-tested methods of starvation, burial of live children and suffocation [ Tam ]. The latter methods appear natural and thus allow the mother to circumvent the law, whilst the more new-fangled hi-tech methods are technically illegal. These laws on paper are the result of Ambedkar's law-making : the Brahmins opposed any legislation against female infanticide. However, the Brahmins have made sure that these laws are not enforced. This was the experience of Malli, a Tamil woman, describing how her child had been murdered :

" She knew someone may have already inserted a grain into her daughter's mouth, or fed her yerakkam pal [ poison ], or may have drowned her in a bucket of water."
[ Shobha ]
This story clearly shows how the poison of Brahmanism has been at work in Tamil Nadu, spreading the vice of female infanticide which involves the cruellest methods of putting the child to death. Smothering, poisoning and violent means are not eshewed in this quest for Kautilyan dominance over an alien people.
1.4 ANGLO-BRAHMIN ERA & FEMALE INFANTICIDE
The Brahmins have always betrayed India to the foreign inveders, whom they helped in order to maintain their vicious grip on the native populations. One need only remember the Brahmin Kautilya who engineered the Greek invasions of India through his protege Candragupta and the resulting conspiracy with Alexander the Great. The devastating Hun, Parthian, Islamic and Scythic invasions were all engineered by the Brahmins. True to their tradition, these traitors also collaborated with the English to enslave the Indians. The English legalised the fierce persecution of Malayali Moplahs by their Brahmin overlords, which led to the Moplah Rebellion. Similarly , the English Aryans connived with the Brahmin Aryans in the mass murder of millions of female children. Thus, as expected, female infanticide actually spread during British rule, and is still on the increase. This is evident from the following figures, which show a drastic decrease in the number of children during the Anglo-Brahmin colonial era :

Number of females per 1000 males
1901 972
1931 950
1981 934

--- [ Ox.64 ]


In the neo-Brahminist Government of India, the genocide of women continues at full pace. Fully one-tenth of each generation of females is exterminated due to Hindu laws. Indeed, during the first 50 years of Independance, more than 50 million girls have been killed in India [ Verma ].

1.5 NEO-BRAHMANIST FEMALE INFANTICIDE
Following the bloody Aryan conquest of the Sudric nations of South India, the Aryan Brahmins utilised every conceivable means in order to eat away at the very backbone of the Dravidian race. Horrible practices like hijrahism, sati, enforcement of Vedic apartheid, Vedic human sacrifice (purushamedha) and female infanticide were used to oppress the native Dravidoids. The instilling of hatred against women in the masses was the direct result of the enforcement of the Aryan Vaishnava religion upon the Shaiva masses. The genocide of girls was institutionalised by the cunning Brahmins among certain sections of the Tamil population, whence this cancer spread throughout the veins of the Dravidian race. The following quotation refers to the survival of Brahmin-inflicted female infantcide amongst the Kallar clan of Dravidians :

" For a long time in a small hamlet, "Usilampatti", of the Madurai District of Tamil Nadu, India, a tribe called "Kallar" has dominated. "Kallar" means robbers, pirates, marauders, as they were in the past. There was even a Dept. in the local government called The Kallar Reclamation Dept., which was designed to reeducate them, as a backward "class". But their numbers spread in Southern District's of Tamil Nadu. A common feature is the practice of female infanticide. They tolerate a first born female baby, but not a second, because they cannot afford it. Both men and women agree that due to economic deprivation and social conditions, and having to marry girls means giving a dowry and jewels plus incurring the expenses of the marriage feasts, it is impossible to bring up a girl baby. Until girls mature they can be of some help at home or help producing food. However, leaving an unmarried adult woman at home is dangerous, and the work place is also considered unsafe. Therefore they poison the female babies soon after birth with a poison mixed with milk, or a milk-like juice from a shrub - madder juice, and the babies die due to nausea and diarrhoea. If they do not kill them, they may simply abandon the baby at a government hospital after giving a fictional address. "
[ Kurian ]
The origin of these practices can be clearly attributed to Brahminist brain-washing :


" The Kallar were once a proud warrior tribe, but under British rule were relegated to the status of mere thieves and forced to report daily to British officials... There is widespread belief that if a girl is killed then the next baby will be a boy and if two girls are killed consecutively then the next baby will definitely be a boy. Some people name their girls Vendam which means 'unwanted' or Podum meaning enough."
-- [ Kidd ]
These Brahminist practices continue to gnaw at the backbone of the Dravidian people, keeping them weak and internally divided. As per the Modern Rationalist, the practice of infanticide is rapidly spreading in Brahmin-Occupied Tamil Nadu:

" NNMR (deaths occurring within 7 days of a child's birth) have risen from 33.8 % in 1971 to over 39% for the current year. According to Alternate India Development (AID), an NGO, there is strong evidence that female infanticide is one of the reasons for the increasing trend in neonatal deaths. However, instances of infanticide even after six months to one year have been recorded. Indeed, the decreasing IMR does not tell the whole story! "
[ Van ]
The Dravidian movement has thus failed in its objective of liberating the Dravidians from the clutches of Brahmanism. The main reason is that Brahmins survived in other parts of south Asia, allowing them to restore their tyrannic hold over Tamil Nadu once the initial wave of localised anti-Brahmanism had past. This has been the time-tested strategy of the Brahmins, and draws strength from the main advantage the Brahmins possess over the other races of India; namely their thin dispersal over vast regions. The only method of solving the eternal Brahmin problem of South Asia is the simultaneous destruction of Brahmanism all across the region. If the Brahmin curse is not completely extinguished, it shall quietly survive until the danger is past, and then suddenly revive like the plague to re-infest the veins of the peoples of Asia with even deadlier forms of venom.

1.6 PERVERSION OF SCIENCE FOR NEO-BRAHMANIC FEMALE INFANTICIDE
In the modern age, the Brahmins have perverted modern science, and transformed it into another method for the mass murder of non-Brahmin races. This innovation involves the scanning of non-Brahmin foetuses for females, followed by the utlisation of medicine to destroy these female babies. This evil, put to such deadly effect in Tamil Nadu, has been spread by the Brahmins into the lungs of the Sikh people. Thus, Sikhs have started to condemn the spread of this ugly Brahminist practice :

" Most Respected Sri Singh Sahib Jee,
Waheguru ji ka Khalsa, Waheguru ji ki Fateh!
The medical tool of "Ultra Sound," commonly used to determine the gender of the fetus, has brought in a very cruel social evil of Female Infanticide into our culture. The female fetuses are being aborted right after their Ultra Sound detection. Unfortunately this social evil is viewed by those who undergo this procedure as well as by those who perform it, as "Just another medical procedure." [ Takht ]

Needless to say, the doctors performing this operation are mostly Brahmins, while the murdered girls are mostly non-Brahmin Sikhs. This system is merely part of the overall Brahmin strategy of exterminating Sikhs. Similar situations exist all over India where Brahmins destroy non-Brahmin foetuses.

1.7 BRAHMINS KILL 1 MILLION GIRLS ANNUALLY
The true extent of the Brahminist destruction of non-Brahmin races must be objectively quantified in order to be comprehended completely. In 1921 there were more than 97 women for every 100 men in India. Seventy years later, the number had dropped to 92.7 [ Verma ]. These figures, benign at first sight, conceal an ugly truth.
Given that the birth rate of India is 32.0 per 1000 and the total population of India is 835.8 milion [ EB-90.635 ], this implies an annual total of 26.7 million births, out of which 13.4 million would be girls. Given that the present sex ratio is 92/100, which implies that 8/100 girls are killed, this leads to 0.008 x 13.4 million = 1.072 million deaths. That means that 1.1 million girls are killed each year due to the Brahmin-enforced customs of Vedic female infanticide . This is the ugly truth behind the figure of 92 girls for every hundred boys.

Sonali Verma writes about the true extent of damage inflicted by Brahmins on women:

" A recent United Nations report said up to 50 million girls and women were missing from India's population , the result of systematic sex discrimination extending to the abortion of female foetuses."
- [ Verma ]
This annihilation of 50 million children, mostly by violent means after childbirth, has occurred during the last 50 years of India's Independance, and confirms the estimate of 1 million girls murdered by Brahmins each year for the last 50 years. It is to be noted that Hitler, one of the greatest mass murderers of all times, exterminated only 5 million Jews. The Brahmin mass murder of 50 million female children in the 20th century has thus been TEN TIMES more severe than the Jewish Holocaust . And the killing continues.
1.8 200 MILLION GIRLS MURDERED BY BRAHMINS
The cumulative number of deaths due to centuries of Hindu female infanticide is truly staggering. Consider the Brahmanic Dark Ages of 1000 years(1500 BC - 500 BC), and let us adopt the standard population estimate of ancient India, namely 50 million and assume that the same birth rate and same sex ratio existed as today. These are not unreasonable assumptions, given the statements of various travellers that several entire towns in Brahmanic India were destitute of girls. These figures lead to 1.6 million births, or 0.8 million girls born per year of which at least 0.08 million are killed. For 2500 years that yields 2500 years x 0.08 million deaths per year = more than 200 million deaths for the Brahmanic Dark Ages. This means that the Brahmins have murdered 200 million girls during their tyranny over India. By comparison, all other genocides in world history pale into insignificance. The Nazi genocide of Jews was only 5 million, whilst the largest Holocaust ever, that of the Native Americans by Latin and Anglo-Saxons, was only 100 million. This genocide of female infants alone is sufficient to make the Brahmins the greatest mass murderers in human history . It does not include the countless other genocides inflicted by the Brahmins on other peoples, an estimate of which is beyond the scope of this book.

1.9 CHILD-MARRIAGE
Enforced by the Brahmins, this custom destroyed the very life-soul of the non-Brahmins. Child marriage of daughters as young 5-6 y old was common during the Brahmanic Dark Ages due to the custom of dowry [ Nand 17 ] [ Bash.167-8 ] [ Yad 70 ] [ Alt.16 ] [ Ban.70 ]. Lawbooks prescribe that the best partner for a man in one-third his age. Thus a man 18 year old should marry a girl 6 years old! This is the wonderful wisdom of the most authoritative Hindu law-book -
Manu.IX.94 : " A man, aged thirty years, shall marry a maiden of twelve who pleases him, or a man of twenty-four a girl of eight years of age; if (the performance of) his duties would otherwise be impeded, he must marry sooner."
One of the reasons for such early marriage of girls was to prevent any scandals. Narada states that some of the defects to be avoided in brides are if they already had a relationship with another man or have their minds set on another, they should not be selected [Sheth 67]. This shows that non-virgin girls could not be married, a custom similar to Church-ruled medieval Europe.
The custom of child-marriage and child-molesting has divine sanction in Hinduism. The `great god' Rama was 16 years old when he married Sita, and Sita was only 14 years old [ Ram.wh 69 ]. However, the age of Sita is now known to be a forgery; it is almost certain that she was, as per the Manuid laws, one-third of his age, namely 5 years old. It is inconceivable to imagine that `great' Rama could have dated to violate the Vedic laws of Manu. Besides being a child-molester, `holy' Rama was also guilty of incest, for Sita is referred to in the oldest surviving Ramayanas as his own sister :

" In the Dasarathajataka Sita is represented as the sister as well as the wife of Rama , son of Dasaratha of the Ikshvaku line."
[ Chandra, p.156 ]
Mr. Chandra, who has given the passage cited above, then claims that this incriminating passage was `infiltrated' by the Buddhist nastikas. This objection, however, can be discounted immediately. Firstly, it would not be possible for Buddhists to `distort' a Hindu scripture. Secondly, Chandra himself is a Brahminist, so his statements in defence of Brahmanism can be discounted as being the result of religious fanaticism. The fact is, that the extant Buddhist tales are much older than the Hindu versions, and this episode was deleted from the later falsified Ramayanas. This is confirmed by anthropological research showing that incest was institutionalised in Rama's race, the Ikshvaku dynasty of Aryan Kshatriyas :
" In the Anabattha Sutta and the Mahavastu Avadana we are told that the Ikshvaku princes, who were banished by their father and took shelter on the slopes of the Himalayas, and from whom the Sakyas traced their descent, married their own sisters in order to maintain the purity of their line."
-- [ Chandra, p.155 ]
Hence, it is virtually certain that Sita was Rama's sister, and that it is certain that such an `upright astik Hindu' as he would not have let his sister grow beyond the age limit of 8 years prescribed by Aryan law.

Now, what was the main reason for the Brahmins enforcing child marriage and incest upon the subject populations ? The answer is that these activities led to the permanent genetic degradation of the non-Brahmin races. It is well known that consanginuous marriage leads to genetic mutations in the offspring and eventually ends in the extermination of the blood lineage concerned. Incest and child marriage has a high risk of leading to irreversible hereditary defects in the second generation which are then passed on to succeeding generataions. These were hence convenient methods for the Brahmins to annihilate the non-Brahmins and establish a pure Brahmavarta ! Even to this day one finds the process of genetic deterioration occurring in non-Brahmin children inhabiting Brahmin-ruled regions. These are entirely the result of Brahmin-enforced child-marriage and Brahmin-inflicted incest.

1.10 ENFORCEMENT OF VIRGINITY
As a further instance of the oppressive rules of Hinduism imposed upon women, young girls were required to remain virgin till marriage. Failing this requirement, they would be discarded by the husbands at will :

Manu.IX.72 : " Though (a man) may have accepted a damsel in due form, he may abandon (her if she be) blemished, diseased, or deflowered, and (if she have been) given with fraud."
Such girls were reduced to a pitiable state and were unable to find husbands thereafter. They were mostly forced to live the life of early wretched widowhood. This shows that the systematic discrimination meted out by Hinduism to women extends down to early childhood. Whilst Brahmin men were free to indulge in debauchery with aboriginal Devadasis at an early age, girls had to remain chaste virgins. This is the truth about `wonderful' Hinduism.
These are merely a handful of facts showing that Hinduism is the single most anti-woman civilization in the history of the world. The followers of Hinduism are mindless male supremacist pigs who know nothing better than to burn their own women and rape their own daughters. This they do in the name of the `Holy Vedas', the invention of perverted Brahmin bigots. No other religion imposes such an inhuman genocide of women as does the truly beastly Hinduism.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Bedus must be glad to have such ardent lovers and bedfellows and bedus, like their grate tradition of treating women, treat Pakis the same way. They make a good couple.

nhq

I wouldnt diss Al beruni - look he wrote 1000 years ago - when people treated the other very badly - at a time when to be a pagan was to be sub-human in islamic society and when north india was terrorized by muslim warlords.

In spite of this religous racism, Al beruni spent more that 10 years studying indian culture. He was able to overcome the islamo-supremacist ideology of his origins and engage with indians (most hindus it turns out!) on their own terms. His work ranks easily with some of the greatest historical writings about "other" cultures.

Obviously, from the perspective of modern times he is not a PC writer. But that should not take away from his achievements. It is a matter of deep regret that indians havent studied his language and culture more deeply, so that better translations and analysis of his work become more available. Of course, for islamo-supremacists, Al beruni is a traitor, because of his respect and engagement with the pagan indians. Such is the life of a genius!

Re: # 77
krb..
without going into the arabic/persian/turk etc... detail, the term hindi/hindu terms were used by middle easterners about India and it is so...rest of it...
There is nothing specific in "Hindu" as per as "Faith" concerned....so, I see no problem here and these terms can be used interchangeable with India/Bharat...

Re: # 76
gf...
idiot.... physics and mathematics are two different subjects...
anyhow, he received nobel for his work with other scientists in europe...the entire work was carried out in europe....then he returned back to Pakistan and blah blah stuff you are talking about....
I have given example of Ramanujan and Madhava...who were product of pure Indian system....
Now, don't claim, this fellow, Abdus Salam, received nobel, inspired and influenced by arabic tradition....then why he need to carry out experiment in europe/usa and share that with 2 other non-arab/arab wannables?

nkg,

arabic term for indian is hindi.. not hindu...

hindu is an persian term originally used by persians to mean indian. but now, this term id exclusively used for you know whom...

Re: # 73

nkg,

you sound more and more silly by the day...tomorrow you will say the sun is not the sun and the moon is not the moon...but would that be correct? Dr. Abdus Salam was indeed a Physicist/Mathematician, and he was indeed Pakistani...he taught Mathematics for many years in Pakistan... During the early 1960s Salam played a very significant role in establishing the Pakistan Atomic Energy Commission (PAEC) - the atomic research agency of Pakistan - and Space and Upper Atmosphere Research Commission (SUPARCO) - the space research agency of Pakistan, of which he was the founding director. He was also instrumental in setting up five Superior Science colleges throughout Pakistan to further the progress in science in the country. In 1998, the Government of Pakistan issued a commemorative stamp to honour the contributions and services of Abdus Salam as part of its 'Scientists of Pakistan' series. According to en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdus_Salam: "Abdus Salam was a devout Muslim, and a member of the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community[8], who saw his religion as integral to his scientific work. He once wrote: "The Holy Quran enjoins us to reflect on the verities of Allah's created laws of nature; however, that our generation has been privileged to glimpse a part of His design is a bounty and a grace for which I render thanks with a humble heart."[2]

During his acceptance speech for the Nobel Prize in Physics, Salam quoted the following verses from the Quran:
“ Thou seest not, in the creation of the All-merciful any imperfection, Return thy gaze, seest thou any fissure. Then Return thy gaze, again and again. Thy gaze, Comes back to thee dazzled, aweary. �

He then said:
“ This, in effect, is the faith of all physicists; the deeper we seek, the more is our wonder excited, the more is the dazzlement for our gaze.[9]�

#70 by Goldfinger

...what ever happened to him he considered him self Pakistani...

Not disputing your contention. Just remembered the disgraceful treatment meted out to him by those who considered religion more important than science.

Re: # 67
krb...
Hindu is arabic term of Indian/Bhraratiya...
Are you OK with that?

Re: # 70
GF...
Neither Abdus salam is mathematician nor he is product of Pakistan...He has carried out much of his work in Europe...

#61,

Sure Cobes, I am aware...

#67 Posted by krbhatti on

[[

Hindu Mathematics..????

Usage of this term coming from a famous scholar is really regrettable. It is like madrassa taught perverts who believe that there exist something called Islamic Sciences......
]]

I plotted a 3D graph between the two in #57

Although, it feels quite hilarious that Hindu mathematics sounds similar to Islamic sciences, because at least Hindus do not create fake science from their sanskrit sutras (they at least let mathematician to decide whether the verse is talking about an adult joke or maths concept).

Re: # 66

harish you are right...and it should not have happened like that...however nkg wanted to know whether any mathmaticians/physicists belonged to Pakistan and I remembered Dr. Salam...what ever happened to him he considered him self Pakistani...but as I always say...bigotry and hate are really evil, and practiced by shallow short sighted people.

65 Posted by Cobra on
Cobra, you are right, but see almost everything is natural in the end, you just need to get used to it.

Re: # 62

I don't care...religions are all a bunch of foolish fairy tales...those who believe in religions and fight for them actually do so on behalf of trying to give ascendancy to one pair of fairy tales over another and vice versa...utter ridiculousness...this is not how modern life ought to operate, but that it does is a great monumental tragedy.

Hindu Mathematics..????

Usage of this term coming from a famous scholar is really regrettable. It is like madrassa taught perverts who believe that there exist something called Islamic Sciences......

#60 by Goldfinger

You foolish bigot...have you not heard of Dr. Abdus Salam, the physics Nobel Laureate?

Yaar GF, being an atheist you might not have any problem accepting Dr.Salam as a Muslim, but when he did win the Nobel, there were not many Pakis willing to consider it achievement because he was not Sunni Muslim. When he wanted to start a research center in Pakistan, he went from pillar to post requesting the government to grant land where he could build this center, but his being an Ahmadi became an impediment. Finally, the man had to start it at Trieste in Italy and Pakis lost out on a golden opportunity to have one of the world's best physicists working with them.

Indeed, Dr.Salam's treatment was an abomination!

Pinku, it is natural to feel affinity to your own kids and kiths and kin. If you are in power you will make every effort to secure that advantage. We have our shortcomings, and that's a natural human tendency that doesn't mean it's justified.

You may also realize that western educations is free for all. It happened over time and they too struggled with that concept but they advanced it nevertheless.

#61 Posted by Cobra

[[Do you know that our genetic makeup is not that different that that of Dalits? ]]

I know it was for someone else, but it is not genetic makeup which causes problem, it is the makeup of mothers, or motherly makeup which cares only for its own blood. Why do we need to have our own sons and daughters, why can't we adopt poor kids? Because we are superior?

Or because your name will be stamped on your next generation for ever?

WHY???

Why it is not something close to racial?

Ignore my stupid questions. But the fact is that most of us are highly educated and very sopisticated idiots living life as it comes to us and accomodating ourselves and our ideas into it.

Gf mian,

You foolish bigot...have you not heard of Dr. Abdus Salam, the physics Nobel Laureate?

He was Paki of course, but not a Muslim.

Regards

Goldfinger, is, or was, he a Muslim?

"if you look at the western societies they've been a homogeneous group ethnically and that would have made things possible as there werent many deterrents for people to people contact..."

Do you know that our genetic makeup is not that different that that of Dalits?

Re: # 46

nkg says: "How, with arab/islamic influnece, Pakistan failed to produce a single notable mathematician?"

You foolish bigot...have you not heard of Dr. Abdus Salam, the physics Nobel Laureate?

#58 Posted by Cobra on
Cobra, even now when we have reservation for backward classes, corruption for politicians and mafia for some-other-ward classes, we are still strangulating around 40% of population?

Even now, rich remains rich in next generation, just becaue of birth? Actor's son become actor (they learn acting in their mother's womb)? Even in USA, Europe, Arab world a significant minority of rich families still own a lot of assets/capital. Why? Because they have birth based caste system?

"and groups werent trusting each others motives and when theres mistrust and no cordial atmosphere to get together you cant expect too much."

Well, a person who's grand father roamed around the town collecting shit, all the while having an earthen pot hanging around his neck in which to spit, may view things a little differently my friend.

Look, we made grate advancements in philosophical and mathematical fields but we also own the responsibility of strangulating the ambitions of those who were not born in the right caste. Remember Eklavya?

Dost mittar, anil and rest,
First Indian mathematics is more Hindu than Arabian mathematics is Islamic or or european mathematics is Christian.
Because many so called muslim mathamaticians or Christian scientists overtly denied their belief in respective religion though for those Hindu ones reverse was true.

Your assumption that nobody knows whether those guys were Hindu or from Mars is wrong, instead of writing preface and acknowledgement most of thos so called Hindu mathematicians start their book with praise of Shiva or some other God or for elaborationg some technology needed to perform some rituals. It is quite easy to associate Shiva and those rituals and those mantras to Hinduism, the moment you are done defining what Hinduism is (you can take as long as you want).


Anyway, idea is simpler, while it sounds very wise and secular (+/- 20% liberal?) to say that knowledge or ideas do not relate to religion, still you are talking about two separate truths here:

1. that truths(or so called ideas or knwoledge) just belong to their context, so mathematics is mathematics with its axioms, theorems or xx,yyy,zzzz's

2. that any truth can still have infinite relationships with other truths

So if an axiom "Y" was discovered by a prostitue, whom you know by a name say India, then you have a valid statement (a separate truth from axiom and India itself) that India discovered axiom "Y". You can question name "India" or axiom or even the fact that the two are related or not, but you can not say that only axiom is truth and rest is dream.

Nope, as always all truths live with their context and are equally truthful in them. One doesn't replace the other, else you didn't define the context properly.



Finally, as I said in my original or first post, the title and the article both show insincerity of the author.

Vengat Ambedkar would not have been possible without British education system.

Cobes,

i am not sure about that if people dint teach or transfer knowledge deliberately...this idea has been oft repeated in many forums that the higher castes never took them upon themselves to educate people...

i dont see what would have made it incumbent of them to teach vedas to a guy who climbs trees for honey...his wild spirit would not have allowed him to sit down or obey...we see that even now...kids who dont go to school and all that...i havent totally falsified the caste theory but its just that i dont think it fully depicts what the picture could have been...

now tell me how many tribes would have coveted a Brahmin girl long ago...there would not have any meeting points...

"Granting access to free knowledge is kind of a new phenomenon. "

and this is what i was talking about...granting or providing knowledge might not have been the greatest of the priorities of those times...and groups werent trusting each others motives and when theres mistrust and no cordial atmosphere to get together you cant expect too much...

if you look at the western societies they've been a homogeneous group ethnically and that would have made things possible as there werent many deterrents for people to people contact...

Vengat "so we cant accuse the people who were in those trades for not doing the KT"

call it a spade when it's a spade. People did that. They kept the knowledge to themselves. Granting access to free knowledge is kind of a new phenomenon. Started in west culminating into open source product development and sharing the benefits by all. Our ancestor were not so generous when it came to knowledge sharing.

If there is anything these Abrhmanic religions, including Islam, have brought to India then it is equality (theoretically, if not in practice) every one has same right and access to knowledge. We didn't do that and that is our fallacy.

Re: # 44
Wow! Great speech, sir. Your expressions on the pollution of Indus river is excellent. It is true that the villagers who defecate in the open did not pollute. The fancy city dwellers and their factories killed rivers and the habitat around.

and when Pervez Hoodbhoy asserts that the knowledge transfer failed due to the rigid caste system, it might be true but not entirely...if you look at business maths, it was practiced by traders and they can also be accused of not doing the KT...

but most probably the reason was that the population which could have been mostly tribal never saw the need for learning maths on a common platform...they got what they needed from mother nature and today thats the life most advocate to keep our planet alive...sustainable living ideas..

i am not sure how much the Brahmins would have mastered the art of growing crops, cattle breeding or something that wasnt their domain...so we cant accuse the people who were in those trades for not doing the KT...people lived in groups that were extended families and they preserved the knowledge they had within the group...

i heard that a caste group in Haryana has been practicing the science of siphoning water from a low lying place towards a hillock (to irrigate) for ages...not many did that in India or Haryana...

#42 by RiazHaq

Riaz mian, why do you bring up sanitation every time? Are you a sanitary worker by any chance? If yes, we in India have great demand for people like you. As you might be aware, our railroad tracks are full of sh!t. So an attractive career in India beckons you!

Riaz, probably takes pride in al-andalucian achievements, I'spose.

When Arabs themselves give credit to Indian mathematicians these holier than though Pakistanis will always try to find an arab angel to every advancement of humanity.

nkg, where as it's probably his ancestors who made strides in all intellectual fields that India claims for itself. But he is too blinded by his bedu love to see that!

Re: # 44
ahmed...
we Indians agree with you...
Arabs/muslas were/are great mathematicians...
How much mathematical work, "piece of arab closer to India" (aka Pakistan) produced for last 900 years?

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No they are not. They just learned the art of bathing. They will remain uncivil lot despite the excesses.

Re: # 37 Laddus, NKG and Arjuns,Jayp Prof.R. Haq.... All of you are mistaking for all you are dehumanizing some group of people. They can have pride of people who lived 2000 years back and did amazing intelluctual works. You can have pride of your ancestors but you can not be proud as present situation is very miserable. Personally defacating in villages is fine thing as the collection of sewage will create a cproblem which is taken care of by nature. In cities is another thing as there is no way of disposing as there is not land available.Sewage disposal by western methods requires large quantities of water for transport and diluation, areation , huge energy for areation stirring spreading over large lannds for disposal.Here no treatment is given to sewage in Karachi and just disposed to Arabian sea and it stinks. Karachi Harbor is considered most stinking harbour in world with reason.
People who can travel to southern part of Indus River go beyond Khotri Barrage it is hell we have made of Indua river, it is just mighty river reduced to sewer of pakistan , all is basicallyt chemical stuff and is poisonous water mosty sewage of punjab, sindh, industrial extracts a chemical cocktail to kill any thing. Many years before I remember Along Indus was vegetation all gone as is dead river. Fish stocks are gone. Worst upper riparians have done is all water used and sindhu river is made out fall sewer. There is so little even polluated water there is ingress of sea water. Where thousands of years crops gve life are dry dusty saline lands. Many times I get angry due to stupidity of so called eites who write from Foren countries. Just some crow sits on top of palace does not become peacock same way just writing from usa does or Uk etc dones not mean they are not stupid. I will correct my self 50% are not stupid.
What is point in in being evil vicious of talking down others when you damn to not even a thing even for your own people. No body buys stocks on KSE all waiting like Vulture to pick up about to die. One can criticise if you are ready to some thing for "poor miserable" you think. But it will be better if you are not going to do and help what is point.
We are miserable people and we are addicted to cheap talk of being vicious and damn not do any thing for any body but will sell mother for $5 and then discuss lot about morality.
Good day , disgusting people.

WE are proud of our manufactured heros who were tormentors of present people of pakistan , people who have read poet Waris Shah know better, Curses some heros very harshly. I do not feel Indians should be too proud od present Science of tech etc, please note mr. Kasab trained in his little study circle was too powerful than graduate of IIT college.

We are miserable people in sense we have pride about ancestors who were great (assumed) ok fine but present situation is we are totally misfit to connect to them. Both are living on Largeness of USA and just cry for our rights.We are beggars crying for help all time , all corrouption and all misery and our all enrgy is wasted in dehumanizing each other. In India people are killed for one rupee and American lawyer said Aptly pakistains will sell mother for $5. ( He forgot to mention when rate is down in market they will buy mother for $2 we are not that stupid or ungrateful or have not drank milk of dead mothers.)
Mathematics is not silly or like light beer like history, Politicl science , ethinic studies just you all dirty people keep away from intelluctual activity. It is aptly said the worms born in cowdung grow lage enough and sink themselves by own weight.

We are not worthy to claim connection to past glories.
Good day cow worshippers and America begging elits.

What's tribute to our superior culture is we have a functioning democracy. And potential to become a progressive nation after being brutalized by regressive regimes of thugs.

Re: # 39
It was your brilliant compadre "Cobra" that brought up the relevance of hygiene by saying "We were good at it (Math) when bedus were just learning to wipe their posterior with something other than sand." So your brilliant buddy made it relevant to the discussion here. Bad judgment, Cobra!!!

Don't ever bring up this stuff, if you don't want to be reminded again about your abject lack of cleanliness. Repeat the Mantra: "Bedouins are light years ahead of Hindus in hygiene, Bedouins are light years ahead of Hindus in hygiene,... "It'll keep you out of trouble!!!
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

rock oil my dear friend Riaz. You see, the mother nature has blessed bedus with one product that runs the engine, literally and figuratively, of the world. It's not a tribute to their 'superior culture'. Fact of the matter is bedus depend on the rest of the world when it comes to anything remotely intellectual.

vengat...
whenever you pull this fellow down, he will drag you to sh**....

riaz..
any answer for the last but one post?...
How this Islamic/Arabic influence failed to produce a single notable mathematician in Pakistan for last 800/900 years?

Riazji,

This sanitation stuff has been talked about several times earlier...I am not sure how it measures the advances of a group or a country...if you look at the number of people with proper sanitation facilities in India, it might far exceed the total population of Pakistan...

even if thats the truth it would not indicate any definite measure of how far India is better than other countries with less sanitation facilities. i mean it does not indicate better cleanliness in anyways...

rail roads aren't the common defecation points in India...may be the urban slum dwellers do that but in rural areas you have got vast expanses of land and water sources...

and human feces aren't toxic, they degrade fast...

if you look at natural farming the manure is all got from plant and animal wastes...

i would rather shit at a place where its clean and not like the unwashed toilets which cause more harm...

Re: # 37
riaz...
your whole concetration is with sanitation etc...if people can manage without toilet, what is your problem? Someone injected that stuff within your brain...

Anyohow,manure is natural product and let it be with nature...neither it is carcinogenic, nor it produces green house gases and acts as nitrogenous fertiliser...

now take sh** out of your brain...we were discussing mathematics....and you kattu will stick with this barbaric,beduinistic view....

Cobra...
Nice one...

Re: # 36
Conra, nkg, Laddu and other bigots:

Has your brilliance in Hindu Math helped you in achieving better sanitation and improved personal hygiene?

Are you denying that two-thirds of your fellow Indians are still defecating out in the open, on the streets and at the railroad tracks while Arab Bedouin have far better sanitation and hygiene?

India might be an emerging economic power, but it is way behind Pakistan, Bangladesh and even Afghanistan in providing basic sanitation facilities, a key reason behind the death of 2.1 million children under five in the country.

Lizette Burgers, chief of water and environment sanitation of the Unicef, recently said India is making progress in providing sanitation but it lags behind most of the other countries in South Asia. A former Indian minister Mr Raghuvansh Prasad Singh told the BBC that more than 65% of India's rural population defecated in the open, along roadsides, railway tracks and fields, generating huge amounts of excrement every day.


Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

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Re: # 33
anil...
sir (you seems to be much senior to me), it looks like; again you are going into the same circle with masadi :-)

Re: # 31

Masadi:

Can you please tell me how do you prove with external references that: (a) Quran is delivered from Allah or something like that; (b) Everything that is said or written in Quran is the whole truth and nothing but the truth?

While at it, please also provide proof positive evidence of God that you claimed here to have in your possession?

Thank you.

Re: # 27
miles...
events in past influences a lot about present and future...
During late 19th century and early 20th century, intellectuals in West Bengal revived that sentiment and produced scientists like J C Bose, Satyen Bose and poet like Rabindranath Tagore...people ( Iswar Chandra Bandyopadhyay) used the past example to revive education in Bengal and wich subsequently influenced rest of India...

#23 Anil you have comprehension challenges. I have never claimed that self reference means you cannot look outside the Quran for knowledge this is your BS. What I have claimed is that you cannot look outside of the Quran to understand what Islam is because the Quran is the only authority on Islam- if you cannot grasp the difference between these two points, and you can't because they don't teach you how to think at HBS then it is not my fault....

TNITC masadi

Mishra...
I have read the translated version of Al-Biruini...
That ardooo barbarian understood 1/2 of the concepts and produced something, part of which is like cock and bull story about India...
For example, the 22 corers of God stuff...But he was too good for an arab and you should ignore these abberations...

Regarding Chinese influence, India used to be the centre of learning and the most notable account we get from Huen Tsang....Students from China used to come to India to learn in Nalanda University and even professors like Atish Dwipankar used to travel as visiting faculty in Chinese( mostly Tibetian) universities....The basic proof of this is the vocabulary of Tibetans and that of Sanskrit/Prakrit...Tibetan language borrowed large number of Sanskrit/Prakrit terms but Indians tried to keep Sanskrit pure....

We owed Chinese in the areas of Silk, Pottery,Paper, Gun powder...
Indians were master in Mathematics, Astrology & Astronomy and Metalurgy...

This myth of Islamic influence in Indian mathematics is something absurd...
After arrival of Islam, the centre of Islamic empire- UP,part of Bihar, Delhi and current day Pakistan stopped producing single notable mathematician...Whatever indian heritage the people of Karnataka and Kerala maintained; Madhava, Ramanujan etc. are product of that tradition....

interesting stuff, certainly in ancient times there was considerable focus on learning and math in india, nalanda was probably the worlds first university, dating back to the early AD time-frame.

Here is Alberuni on indian science and math -

[quote]
"The Hindus do not use the letters of their alphabet for numerical notation, as we use Arabic letters in the order of the Hebrew alphabet. As in different parts of India the letters have different shapes, the numerical signs, too, which are called 'anka', differ. The numerical signs which we use are derived from the finest forms of the Hindu signs……. The Arabs, too, stop with the thousand, which is certainly the most correct and the most natural thing to do. .... Those, however, who go beyond the thousand in their numeral system are the Hindus, at least in their arithmetical technical terms, which have been either freely invented or derived according to certain etymologies, whilst in others both methods are blended together. They extend the names of the orders of numbers until the 18th order for religious reasons, the mathematicians being assisted by the grammarians with all kinds of etymologies."
[\quote]


other scholars have also remarked on the transmission of key math texts from india to baghdad, including algebraic
foundations.

[quote]
As Sindh was under the actual rule of Khalif Mansur (AD 753 - 774), there came embassies from that part of India to Baghdad, and among them scholars, who brought along with them two books, the Brahamsiddhanta to Brahamgupta (Sirhind), and his Khandkhdyaka (Arkanda). With the help of these pandits, Alfazari, perhaps also Yakub ibn Tarik, translated them. Both works have been largely used, and have exercised a great influence. It was on this occasion that the Arabs first became acquainted with a scientific system of astronomy. They learned from Brahamgupta earlier than from Ptolemy."
[\quote]

I fail to understand how does the argument that my ancestors were smarter than yours help. It is waste of time.

Riaz#16:

I know what Hoodbhoy wrote. My response was:

"Who knows what faiths Aryabhata or Mahadeva practised, whether they were Buddhists, Jains, Shaivites or atheists?"

Re: # 24

Oops Chowk ate my post. All Masadi's fault.

infinity , advancement stopped at some point because of very long expressions in Sutra.

I am not knowledgeable about the flow of scientific knowledge from Arad/Muslims into early India. Of course, the perfection and beauty that created Taj Mahal etc. must have brought technology, just as weavers of carpets and muslin.

Re: # 21

Masadi:

You pointed to me here on Chowk and boasting about it too. You can search that interact out.

Re: # 19
On the question of rigor, please look at the following excerpt from the article again:

"Greco-Islamic and Indian mathematics were structured quite differently with the former emphasizing proof and the latter result. Probably because of Islamic influence, Indian ideas of the nature of mathematical proof moved in the direction of greater rigour."

Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

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Re: # 16

Riaz:

Church also used all it can to control the knowledge. Regarding regiors of proof being essential. If Masadi is any representative of authoritarian and excluvist approach to knowledge among the believers. One of the most fundamental theorems to test and proof limits is by a mathematician called Godel.

Masadi distorts it to say "self-reference" of Quran is enough of a proof. Informed as he is on Islamic thoughts and I am equally uninformed, I would say that many believers must have accepted that "self-reference" to Quran as the limit and hence the ultimate proof to accept or reject. A limit unacceptable to non-believers.

There is no such thing as “Hindu� mathematics.

Mathematics, like human knowledge, predates all such adjectives. It is an insult to mathematics to give such or any such adjective.

Pursuit of knowledge is the most basic and very individualistic effort. It is found among all societies and at all times.

Those who restrict or purge knowledge – as Muslims did purge non-Koranic knowledge from among its believers, individuals found new expressions, reliance on geometric shapes for art is an example, and no less impressive than the others.

The same happened in other totalitarian regimes and medieval societies, in only delayed (the Earth is not the center of Uiverse) or allowed new methods of expressions.

Knowledge belongs to all humans, some humans many deny to their society on whatever pretext, and when a society does it does so its own peril. There are numerous examples of this.

Pursuit of knowledge requires contact and exchange of thoughts, just as trade is exchange of goods and services. The exchange of thoughts to knowledge, is what trade is to economics. Both very basic pursuits for humans.

I can write more on why development in Indic societies took a turn toward verbal expression, and clausal logic; rather than numeral expression and mathematical logic. Panini’s work to define grammar for the grammar is still recognized as unmatched contribution to computing languages and translation. Sutras became foundation of expression, and attempt was made to make Sanskrit as precise and numeral representation would be, because of this unitary approach to knowledge, proficiency in Sanskrit and Ganit – there is third branch called Beej Ganit (Algebra) too.

I don't know why so-called 'Hindu mathematics' warrants a separate article. What little the Hindus discovered was written in obscure and well-nigh incomprehensible verse and buried away in obscure Sanskrit works. It was kept as a closely guarded secret by pandit-hates, and was anyway riddled with errors and inconsistencies of all kinds.

Whereas all of mathematics (and indeed all knowledge worth knowing) can be found in the Majestic Quran, if one only looks hard enough. Nothing the Hindu infidelators came up with can compare with the Amazing Quran.

Re: # 14
The author clearly argues that math was developed by various peoples such as Indians and Arabs to satisfy their religious needs/duties of building temples or determining the direction for prayers, etc. Hence the labels "Hindu" or "Islamic". Here is the specific excerpt:

From this book one understands in fine detail how the early development of Indian mathematics was influenced by the need to build temples of specific proportions, astrological imperatives, etc. It could be argued that Islamic mathematics also had a religious motivation: the need to know precise times for the 5-times daily prayers, the direction of the Qibla, etc.

It also points out how the different civilizations handled knowledge: In India, the knowledge was a tightly-guarded secret held by the Brahmins and there was no rigor of proof.
In the Islamic civilization, there were no class/caste distinctions for sharing knowledge and the rigor of proof was considered essential.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

I agree with dost_mittar. It was Indian, not 'Hindu' mathematics. I wish Mr Hoodhboy had not labelled it so.

The story of human civilization is the story of the contributions made by various great civilizations at various times in its history - be they Chinese, Indian, Greek, Arab or European.

I however have a slight problem with the title - it's more accurate to call this mathematics Indian rather than hindu. Who knows what faiths Aryabhata or Mahadeva practised, whether they were Buddhists, Jains, Shaivites or atheists? The same would be true of several Greek, Arab or Italian scientists whose achievement is not that of the faith they might have belonged to.

We should also not begrudge the eurocentric credit for most advancement; after all almost all of the major scientific and technological progress over the last twenty or so generations has taken place in Europe.

hindu mathmatics as in al-hindi is a reasonable construct as in mathematical tradition of hindia in the sense that it had a particular method, structure and practice. its not about hindu religion. similarly, its probably correct to consider arabi mathematics. moslem mathematics is also an ok thing to consider if a specifically islamic tradition is established which results in mathematics in say philippines in that tradition.

"there is no islamic or hindu or christian knowledge but human knowledge..itis a compendium that grows from influences from the, realities of the now and the dreams of the future....it evolves and changes as humans do. I ti pathetic I think that people get all worked up or take ownership over knowledge"

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Is the right answer!

"Good piece. Should deflate the exaggerated pride of quite a few here on Chowk!"

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Did you even read the article?

masadi yaar, if that was the case, technological advancement, medical advancement, that we have seen in the last 50-100 yrs wouldn't have been possible. A patent never stops anyone from inventing or building upon it. patronage for discovery has been as old as humans themselves.

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there is no islamic or hindu or christian knowledge but human knowledge..itis a compendium that grows from influences from the, realities of the now and the dreams of the future....it evolves and changes as humans do. I ti pathetic I think that people get all worked up or take ownership over knowledge.

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Well, it is not a great idea to suggest something more wrong than right in title?

[[Hindu Mathematics – How Original Was It?]]


While in all of his article, Pervez Hoodbhoy, doesn't say that anything was unoriginal, he still kept it as sugestive heading. Same will be true for that German Author as well.


Unfortunately, even Pervez Hoodbhoy, has to become quite insincere in his approach while writing about the so called Hindu mathematics.


First the Islamic thing he talked about starts in 11th 14th century, while almost all of those hindu matheticians (the list mentioned here) came before 800-900 AD. Secondly, there are great details of how and what Al-kindi (Brahmin teacher), Al-Beiruni and other Arab scholars learned from Hindus of yesteryears but not the other way round. Even pythagorus is supposed to have travelled and learnt from Indian or Brahmins or Hindu mathematics. Greek were in awe of Indian intelligence not because in later years something from them will reach to Indians, because they know something about India or Hinduism that in their opinion was "wise". Even today Greeks won't deny this but Europeans/Americans who "hinge" on Greek as their "status" of civilization will find it hard to think that Greek learnt anything from Indians.


So till 1000 AD, how original Hindu mathematics was, there is a simple but somewhat egostical answer to that: 300BC Budhdhism itself was more or less Indian or Hindu business). All this suggests how all minds becomes biased and how even scientists have to surf over bias all the time. When you know that 90% probability is of one thing and still you suggest something else, you are more something "else" then scientific. And "else" wins, where else = ego or identity. Now if you can't control your ego while being a commited scientist please don't accuse those politicians or right wing people.

Talking about ancient India, while Hindu become unreasonable and try to take 600BC to 1600BC or 2600BC, the Europeans always do the opposite, they tend to post-date everything related to India because of their somewhat recent past and also because of religious traditions.

Good piece. Should deflate the exaggerated pride of quite a few here on Chowk!
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Thank you!
Great piece. Yes, maths is the exactest of all human branches of learning. I will look up the book--maybe even order it for our mathematic department.

most fascinating and informative Dr Hoodbhoy! especially liked the "Cultural pride creates its own versions of truth."

also the context of every 'discovery' or idea is important too ...for what purpose was it originally discovered/used for .... which gives one the understanding of why it was deemed important by the discoverer

there are some fascinating art work from as far back as 30-40,000 years discovered in caves in parts of Australia ... but did it 'truly' mean what we think it might have meant to the natives? ... these questions are rather difficult to answer