She Needs to be Saved

Hiba,
Beautifully written and expressed right from the heart. I was thinking of various candidates until mid-way, your point became apparent. Totally agree with your marvelous analogy and comprehensive complaint. May we all unite to rescue "her."

#31 Posted by hibatanvir

Arey! I want to stay on topic so I repeat. What is the nature of your research and what are your pet peeves?

Re: # 30
I think we're getting a bit of topic. To answer your point, I agree Muslims are flourishing in the West and I'm proud of that. My concern is about the Muslims who are not flourishing....They Need to be Saved ( pun intended)

#29 Posted by hibatanvir

Not to give you a hard time but given that you are from India but never lived there and that you are married to a Pakistani and have interacted with Pakistanis I am assuming in America or is it that you are living in Pakistan. I would just like to know the nature of your research and what your pet peeves are, because as far as I am concerned Islam and Muslims are flourishing in America.

Re: # 26
We need to stop getting tangled in issues of whether my point of view comes from being Indian or Pakistani. I have never lived in India.I've had more interaction with Pakistanis and researched their issues in more depth than most people would have. I speak as a Muslim and my call is for all of us thinking Muslims to dare to think and question what we've been conditioned to believe.

I respect people who have devoted their lives to the study of any cause and I'm not maligning them or their work but I believe that if their study and interpreatations are not encouraging thought and welcoming to debate and discussion, I have a right to question. Just because someone has Alim or Imam in front of their names doesn't mean we can not disagree and bring another point of view to the table. The problems we are in stem from this very fact; We do not allow or encourage critical thinking, questioning or different perspectives. This has bred intolerance, rigidity, and led to intellectual death

Another title for the article, in Urdu, could be -


"Mere Deen ki Izzat Bachao" with the added call to arms


"ISLAM KHATRAY MEIN HAIN !!! "


Good to see English Educated devout muslims in 20th century defending an undefensible philosophy by 7th century wild, illiterate, cruel, brutal, unrepentant, senile, megalomaniac who destroyed lives and nations for 1400 years and counting.

We can rest assured that Taliban and its english speaking apologists are alive and well and hence the agony of their followers will continue on... just as the troubles of the Pure Nation has continued on since its birth...

#18 & #23:

You see this is a problem of point of view. We from Pakistan feel an existential threat to the state and what our way of life should be, whereas you in India are more concerned about meddlesome maulvis who wish to tell you what to do to attain salvation. Problems I am referring to are political and about this world which is entirely different.

16 Posted by tahmed32

the "Sunnah" itself is mullahism

Sunnah is definitely not Mullahism, may be you are referring to Hadith. Quran itself cannot be understood without an intimate knowledge of the history of the time. Islamic historiography is perhaps the finest after earlier Greek and Roman works. The attention these scholars paid to meticulously list out their sources and different versions of the same event is phenomenal. So please do not malign the hard work that these scholars put in.

This is where all the tafseers get their background information about the circumstances and events which were taking place at the time that are referred to in the prophetic revelations.

:D :D :D
People must be thinking you are a troll....otherwise this board should be humming by now.

Or has the Riaz Ul_Haq ibn Zia-ul-haq sapped the energy of of all chowkies :D :D :D



She was pure, as pure as a virgin.
She had poise, she had a unique stature.
At her inception, she was blasphemous. She challenged the evils around her.
.
.
.
She is my religion; Islam.


and yes, I am Alexander Dumas!

hibatanvir #23:

{{We should challenge anyone who is opposed to allowing free thinking and interpretation of the Quran or Sunnah, individuals who reduce Islam to heaven and hell and who preach and instill dogma.}}

Thank you for your answer. I gather that you consider a mullah to be "anyone who opposes free thinking and interpretation of the Quran and Sunnah, individuals ... who preach and instill dogma."

So does everyone who pleases (or at least, every Muslim), get to interpret the Quran and Sunnah any way they like? Who decides what is a valid interpretation? Can more than one interpretation be simultaneously valid? Do individuals perhaps get to pick and choose which parts of the Quran and Sunnah are to be considered essential, and which can be dismissed as inessential or totally ignored? If you decide to publicise and promote your interpretation of the scripture, can you be considered to be 'preaching and instilling dogma'?

BTW: Full disclosure - I am not a Muslim or a traditional religious believer of any kind.

Re: # 20
My mistake, I shouldn't use words in such a sterotypical fashion. We should challenge anyone who is opposed to allowing free thinking and interpretation of the Quran or Sunnah, individuals who reduce Islam to heaven and hell and who preach and instill dogma. Classic example: At the mosque when the woman next to me tells me my prayer isn't accepted bacause I'm wearing nail paint, instead of saying oh, ok and dismissing it; I'll challenge her and ask her how does she know, and who gives her the right to make that call. It's people like these who walk around with a moral stick in their hand who need to be told "live and let live" and let each person practise religion in whatever manner they choose.

Re: # 21
Their name is Muslim Canadian Congress and their website address:

http://www.muslimcanadiancongress.org/

Re: # 19
Thank you for the appreciation.
I'd be interested in more information about this Canadian Muslim Association. Could you please provide a website address.
Instead of being a minority of liberal Muslims standing up to the majority of mullahs, I want to reverse the order.
Tough task, but I'm commited.

hibatanvir #13:

{{but I thought sense will prevail over Muslims and they'll put an end to their own misery by taking control from the mullahs}}

To begin with, could you give us a working definition of a mullah. How do you decide whether a particular Muslim is a mullah?

Hi Miss Tanvir
Your passionate plea for your religion was quite moving. I recently found this Canadian Muslim Association website which is quite accomodating of issues like a lady Imam to lead prayers or gay marriages. They have accumulated many articles and reading them was quite an experience for me.

Re: # 17
LOL...My husband is Pakistani so to be a part of his delight when Pakistan won, I joined him.
I'm glad there are people like yourself who understand how we have been plagued by the control tactics of the mullahs.We are in this mess today because we happily gave them control and now have no idea how to control them.

If only more Muslims understood this...
And to respond to the comment someone made about finding out that the Quran and Sunnah support these dogmas, I'd like to say we are supposed and free to interpret the word of God. It's not black and white. There is plenty of gray and God designed it that way so we could and would use our minds, and to be a guide for all times.To the Mullah, there is no gray..it'll all BLACK!
The more I research Islam by myself, the angrier and sadder I feel about how it's been stripped of its beauty, freedom and intellect.

#13 i basically agree with you. for too long muslims have surrendered authority to interpret the Quran to the most retrograde and ignorant members of society. it is time to recognize that a mullah is nothing but an unemployed man with a beard-and-arby schtick.

ps: sorry about assuming you were pakistani - and i am sure you dont applaud the pakistan team either. :-)

" lets say you do research yourself and are shocked to find that all the dogmas that were thrown at you are actually there in the Quran or Sunnah of the Prophet."

the "Sunnah" itself is mullahism. this is the standard trick of both the mullahs and of those wishing to demonize islam - i.e. to muddy the waters by tossing in bs with the Quran.

#13 Posted by hibatanvir

Research Islam for yourself, don't give the task to your Imam or molvie.

Now here is the dilemma, lets say you do research yourself and are shocked to find that all the dogmas that were thrown at you are actually there in the Quran or Sunnah of the Prophet. What would you do then? Would you accept them and submit yourself that it is God’s will or would you have the guts to stand up and say that Islam itself is flawed in this respect.

This my friend is where most of us opt to

“sit in our drawing rooms and say " bohath bura karein hai yeh log Islam kay naam mein,yeh log muselman nahee hosukthay" and continue with our fancy meals�

Re: # 13

Well said Tanvir Sahab.

Re: # 12
I'm not a Pakistani, I'm an Indian Muslim. And wishful thinking on my part, but I thought sense will prevail over Muslims and they'll put an end to their own misery by taking control from the mullahs. The moderates and liberals have distanced themselves by having nothing to do with the religion or mosques and so it's the gullible ones who sit and listen brainlessly to what they're told. I believe if every Muslim challenged the dogmas thrown at us from mullahs and other self claimed righteous person, we'll be taking a step in the right direction. The problem is, most of us sit in our drawing rooms and say " bohath bura karein hai yeh log Islam kay naam mein,yeh log muselman nahee hosukthay" and continue with our fancy meals.Research Islam for yourself, don't give the task to your Imam or molvie.

bahut der kay baad khyaal aya!!

how come no pakistani wrote such an article after 9/11 - when 3000 people were murdered in the name of Islam?!! how come no one wrote such an article after the taliban entered pakistan? or even after they had over-run swat? only when their own sweet selves were next in line did the self-absorbed elite of pakistan wake up.

anyway, daer aye, durust aye. better late than never.

Re: # 9

it harkens the familiar battle cry of millenniums “Islam khatray mein hey�.

Exactly! OR THE FAMILIAR THEME, THAT ALL MAIDENS ARE IN DISTRESS!


WAKE UP MALES! SPEAK UP!

#9

"then it entirely ignores the Meccan period and beyond"

Correction: it should read

then it entirely ignores the Medinat period and beyond

This is a unique event in history (atleast in my knowledge) that Islam is personified as a young maiden, fragile and susceptible to the vicissitudes of barbaric hordes. But despite the emotional appeal through beautiful verse and allegories of a damsel in distress we should all be on guard because in its essence it harkens the familiar battle cry of millenniums “Islam khatray mein hey�.

The first two sets of verses refer to the Prophet’s Meccan period when Islam was weak and forced to deal with others who were stronger then herself (using the metaphor of this poem). But then it entirely ignores the Meccan period and beyond of strength of becoming the discriminator, the unjust, the unequal, the exclusive, the dogmatic and blames it all on the poor Taliban. All because the enlightened moderation crowd with their 21st century sensibilities is embarrassed by Islam of yester years. It is not that Islam has changed, it is you who have changed and you don’t have the luxury of reinterpreting Islam or rewriting it like other religions.

The Taliban have challenged and continue to challenge anybody to debate them about their aqaid, their tactics or any of the things that they do and if proven contrary to the teachings of the Quran or the practices of the Prophet they are willing to change them. So please if you have anything why don’t you debate them if not face to face you can do it through the media. The interesting part is that despite this hulabaloo, appeals by West, by all the dictatorships of the Islamic Ummah to their respective sarkari maulvis, no such direct challenge has come up. It is not because they don’t wish to try, maulvis as a group are keen to cut each other down but not in this situation. The reason is quite simple, the Taliban and Al Qaida truly represent what the Quran and Sunnah says, so they just lob accusations from the periphery but never take them on in serious debate or munazira.

Hi, Here is a news piece from well known french paper Le monde of today. It is about framing a new law banning nikab and burqua. Any burqa wearing is compared with a walking prison for women.

I remember there was very strong opposition among our people and more so in India and Pakistan when France passed a law for school going adolescents to refrain from wearing any signs of religious affiliation: including crosses, turban, scarf etc.

How will you react if burqa is totally banned in France? It is essentially our Indo-Pak - Afghan community which is targeted. Will you take it as it is when it upsets our established social practice.



L'idée d'une interdiction du voile intégral progresse en France
18.06.09 | 12h30

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PARIS (Reuters) - L'idée d'une interdiction en France des différentes formes de voile musulman couvrant le corps et le visage a été défendue jeudi par un membre du gouvernement, la secrétaire d'Etat à la Ville Fadela Amara.

Son intervention va plus loin que l'initiative d'une soixantaine de députés qui demandent la création d'une commission d'enquête parlementaire sur ce qu'ils perçoivent comme le développement du port de ce type de vêtement, vu comme une "atteinte aux libertés fondamentales" des femmes.

Le débat relance la question du port du voile en France, pays laïc qui ne reconnaît et ne subventionne aucun culte mais abrite la plus importante communauté de personnes de confession, de culture ou d'origine musulmane en Europe.

"Vous savez ce que je pense du voile, mais alors la burqa c'est encore pire. Ce n'est que l'expression visible et physique des fondamentalistes. Moi, je suis pour l'interdiction", a dit sur France Inter Fadela Amara, ancienne présidente d'une association militant pour l'émancipation des femmes.

Le ministre de l'Education nationale, Xavier Darcos, a abondé dans le même sens, sans prôner explicitement l'interdiction de ce type de vêtement. "Il est hors de question qu'on voie en France des femmes couvertes de la tête aux pieds, en tout cas la République n'a pas à l'encourager (...) la burqa est une oppression", a-t-il dit sur I-télé.

En bémol, le ministre de l'Immigration, Eric Besson, a déclaré qu'à titre personnel il s'opposait à l'interdiction en raison du principe de liberté de conscience. "Toucher à cet équilibre me paraît risqué", a-t-il dit sur France Info.

AMBIGU�TÉ

Les députés impliqués dans l'initiative parlent de burqa, forme particulière de vêtement intégral grillagé au niveau des yeux provenant de l'Afghanistan, et de niqab, une version répandue dans les pays du Golfe laissant les yeux apparents.

Dans l'exposé des motifs de la proposition de résolution demandant une commission d'enquête, qui est désormais soutenue par 63 députés - 48 UMP, sept socialistes, trois communistes, deux Nouveau Centre et trois non inscrits -, André Gerin, député-maire PC de Vénissieux, dans le Rhône, y fait référence.

"Nous sommes aujourd'hui confrontés, dans les quartiers de nos villes, au port par certaines femmes musulmanes de la burqa, voilant et enfermant intégralement le corps et la tête dans de véritables prisons ambulantes ou du niqab qui ne laisse apparaître que les yeux", peut-on y lire.

Le texte n'évoque pas les autres formes de voile couvrant le corps et la tête mais laissant le visage apparent.

Depuis 2004, la France interdit le port à l'école de "signes religieux ostensibles", le voile musulman, la kippa juive, le crucifix ou encore le turban sikh.

L'esprit de cette disposition approuvée à droite comme à gauche était de faire respecter à l'école républicaine le principe de laïcité et d'empêcher le prosélytisme.

Cette loi a été critiquée au niveau européen et dans le monde musulman. Une interdiction extra-scolaire limitée au voile musulman risquerait de se heurter à plusieurs principes fondamentaux, comme la liberté de conscience et de religion.

Des tentatives de certaines entreprises privées d'interdire le port du voile à des employées n'étant pas en contact avec le public ont été déclarées illégales par les tribunaux.

Tout en déplorant le développement en France d'habitudes vestimentaires qui ne relèvent pas selon lui de l'islam, Dalil Boubakeur, recteur de la mosquée de Paris, a estimé mercredi qu'une interdiction contreviendrait à la liberté individuelle.

Thierry Lévêque, édité par Yves Clarisse

Re: # 1

"And Najd, and there shall arise the horn of the devil."
if one pays attention this rising is becoming more evident by the day and night.

Re: # 2
Parthaab,
Calling you stupid would be an insult to stupid people.

I like your idea...but it should have been written in prose form

Nice thoughts. I wish and hope that Pakistan would overcome their current crisis and emerge as a strong democracy and a respectable country on earth. this will automatically improve the image of Islam.

parthab,why are you so eager to exibit your stupidity??

'Rape can be by woman too'


http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Cities/Rape-can-be-by-woman-too-Anu pam/articleshow/4668892.cms#

Ibn Umar reported the Prophet (upon whom be blessings and peace) as saying: "Oh God, bless us in our Syria; O God, bless us in our Yemen." Those present said: "And in our Najd, O Messenger of God!" but he said, "O God, bless us in our Syria; O God, bless us in our Yemen." Those present said, "And in our Najd, O Messenger of God!". Ibn Umar said that he thought that he said on the third occasion: "Earthquakes and dissensions (fitna) are there, and there shall arise the horn of the devil."[14]

http://www.muslimcanadiancongress.org/20060612.html