Watching Poverty Grow
Rashid Malik June 19, 2009
#89 Posted by harish_hyd on June 22, 2009 10:38:24 pm
Riaz mian seems very interested in India's sanitation problems. Is he looking for a job here? If yes, we would be more than glad to offer him one. After all, what can a man want more than a career he loves?
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#88 Posted by nkg on June 22, 2009 9:31:07 pm
shankar...
As per my knowledge, Indian administration never tried to make Pakistan as model or tried to make Pakistan as benchmark...It was China, which we were looking for and after the fall of NDA Govt., we are now fighting with Pakistan...I realy admire that guy called Arun Shourie...Pakistan, with whatever progress it makes, will never be threat to India, but China was/is/will be once they get freed from Japan side...
As per my knowledge, Indian administration never tried to make Pakistan as model or tried to make Pakistan as benchmark...It was China, which we were looking for and after the fall of NDA Govt., we are now fighting with Pakistan...I realy admire that guy called Arun Shourie...Pakistan, with whatever progress it makes, will never be threat to India, but China was/is/will be once they get freed from Japan side...
#87 Posted by nkg on June 22, 2009 9:21:34 pm
contd...
Though the official figure shows, India's inflation is negative, it is due to fall of prices of cars, luxary apartments etc...The rice,dal and regular food item is very costly...The rice, which used to be around 16-17 INR/Kilo in Bangalore (4/5 years back), is now 34INR.. Almost doubled....
In a gist, where the average rainfall is good, rural areas are the best place to live in India (coastal Andhra, Orissa, Tamilnadu, West Bengal)...cost of food items are quite decent, with rising price of agricultural products; farmers are having enough money....
Though the official figure shows, India's inflation is negative, it is due to fall of prices of cars, luxary apartments etc...The rice,dal and regular food item is very costly...The rice, which used to be around 16-17 INR/Kilo in Bangalore (4/5 years back), is now 34INR.. Almost doubled....
In a gist, where the average rainfall is good, rural areas are the best place to live in India (coastal Andhra, Orissa, Tamilnadu, West Bengal)...cost of food items are quite decent, with rising price of agricultural products; farmers are having enough money....
#86 Posted by nkg on June 22, 2009 9:13:09 pm
Re: # 80
malik...
You should not empower people beyond certain level; their expectation grows gradualy, and you will succumb at some point...That may be the reason political parties loose election here, those who perform moderate...
One nice example will be, the despots in Africa and South America...They never loose power due to public discontent...
In context of West Bengal, the basic problem is huge population density. The current Govt. have very minimum scope to improve infrastructure...CPI(M) grabbed the entire administration and now, people see Govt. and party as synonimous...There are so many reasons...
What I have observed in last 20/25 years is..
a. they improved rural infrastructure
b. increased the salary of school teachers and created a class of teachers
c. large amount of money is spent through local body and their autonomy is one of the best in India...The collector/District Magistrate reports to elected president of district body...such is the level of de-centralisatoion of power....
Where they failed...
a. Primary education and primary health should be brought under local body. But there is severe scarcity of doctors, specialy due to absenteesm...Even in rural areas private health sector is growing due to corruption in local level and local body can check this corruption....This proposal is there for quite some time; but the doctor's association and teacher's association, both affiliated to CPI(M) and they are opposing tooth and nail...
b. the farmers, they empowered; their children got decent education and they need job. They are not satisfied with the working in field. Youth have deserted CPI(M)....
c. rural electrification is still a problem. In my village at least 20% to 30% people, still are devoid of proper power connection.
Before this election, the way BJP and CPI(M) tried to destabilize the Govt.,people have not taken it lightly...
BJP was simply funny and at the last phase of election, when people felt that, BJP is not in good shape, urban voters shifted base to Congress to get a stable Govt.
CPI(M) tried to garner muslim vote (in WB, muslim vote is as high as 30% and supported CPI(M) in last election), they tried to link Indo-US Nuke deal with Islam, but somehow, poor people failed to understand it...
Even during the NDA Govt., they initiated a program called rural conectivity program...That has caused almost miracle in economics...One existing road in our area was widened from single lane to double len and then they have laid another road, which is connected with bricked roads...Now, the farmers are not selling product directly to us...They prefer to sell it to big businessman etc...penetration of cell phone had made delivery system very efficient...
I am seeing good infrastructure in some part of Karnataka as well...
The main area of concern is urban poverty and Mumbai will not be much different from Karachi...
In Bangalore, with current price index, it is almost impossible to live with 5000INR/PM, with bare neccessities, though that crosses the mark of BPL (more than $1 a day)stuff...
malik...
You should not empower people beyond certain level; their expectation grows gradualy, and you will succumb at some point...That may be the reason political parties loose election here, those who perform moderate...
One nice example will be, the despots in Africa and South America...They never loose power due to public discontent...
In context of West Bengal, the basic problem is huge population density. The current Govt. have very minimum scope to improve infrastructure...CPI(M) grabbed the entire administration and now, people see Govt. and party as synonimous...There are so many reasons...
What I have observed in last 20/25 years is..
a. they improved rural infrastructure
b. increased the salary of school teachers and created a class of teachers
c. large amount of money is spent through local body and their autonomy is one of the best in India...The collector/District Magistrate reports to elected president of district body...such is the level of de-centralisatoion of power....
Where they failed...
a. Primary education and primary health should be brought under local body. But there is severe scarcity of doctors, specialy due to absenteesm...Even in rural areas private health sector is growing due to corruption in local level and local body can check this corruption....This proposal is there for quite some time; but the doctor's association and teacher's association, both affiliated to CPI(M) and they are opposing tooth and nail...
b. the farmers, they empowered; their children got decent education and they need job. They are not satisfied with the working in field. Youth have deserted CPI(M)....
c. rural electrification is still a problem. In my village at least 20% to 30% people, still are devoid of proper power connection.
Before this election, the way BJP and CPI(M) tried to destabilize the Govt.,people have not taken it lightly...
BJP was simply funny and at the last phase of election, when people felt that, BJP is not in good shape, urban voters shifted base to Congress to get a stable Govt.
CPI(M) tried to garner muslim vote (in WB, muslim vote is as high as 30% and supported CPI(M) in last election), they tried to link Indo-US Nuke deal with Islam, but somehow, poor people failed to understand it...
Even during the NDA Govt., they initiated a program called rural conectivity program...That has caused almost miracle in economics...One existing road in our area was widened from single lane to double len and then they have laid another road, which is connected with bricked roads...Now, the farmers are not selling product directly to us...They prefer to sell it to big businessman etc...penetration of cell phone had made delivery system very efficient...
I am seeing good infrastructure in some part of Karnataka as well...
The main area of concern is urban poverty and Mumbai will not be much different from Karachi...
In Bangalore, with current price index, it is almost impossible to live with 5000INR/PM, with bare neccessities, though that crosses the mark of BPL (more than $1 a day)stuff...
#85 Posted by RiazHaq on June 22, 2009 7:13:20 am
Re: # 84
Shanker,
While I agree that neither Pak nor India are doing well in taking care of their people, please don't get carried away with one piece of data. There is overwhelming evidence of India being worse than Pakistan, even BD when it comes to basic issues of hunger and sanitation.
According to Indian Planning Commission member Syeda Hameed, India is worse than Bangladesh and Pakistan when it comes to nourishment and is showing little improvement in the area despite big money being spent on it.
According to UNICEF, India is making progress in providing sanitation but it lags considerably behind most of the other countries in South Asia including Pakistan, Bangladesh and even war-torn Afghanistan.
And this is what William Dalrymple said after visiting both India and Pakistan in 2007:
"On the ground, of course, the reality is different and first-time visitors to Pakistan are almost always surprised by the country's visible prosperity. There is far less poverty on show in Pakistan than in India, fewer beggars, and much less desperation. In many ways the infrastructure of Pakistan is much more advanced: there are better roads and airports, and more reliable electricity. Middle-class Pakistani houses are often bigger and better appointed than their equivalents in India."
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
Shanker,
While I agree that neither Pak nor India are doing well in taking care of their people, please don't get carried away with one piece of data. There is overwhelming evidence of India being worse than Pakistan, even BD when it comes to basic issues of hunger and sanitation.
According to Indian Planning Commission member Syeda Hameed, India is worse than Bangladesh and Pakistan when it comes to nourishment and is showing little improvement in the area despite big money being spent on it.
According to UNICEF, India is making progress in providing sanitation but it lags considerably behind most of the other countries in South Asia including Pakistan, Bangladesh and even war-torn Afghanistan.
And this is what William Dalrymple said after visiting both India and Pakistan in 2007:
"On the ground, of course, the reality is different and first-time visitors to Pakistan are almost always surprised by the country's visible prosperity. There is far less poverty on show in Pakistan than in India, fewer beggars, and much less desperation. In many ways the infrastructure of Pakistan is much more advanced: there are better roads and airports, and more reliable electricity. Middle-class Pakistani houses are often bigger and better appointed than their equivalents in India."
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
#84 Posted by shankar on June 22, 2009 6:47:42 am
Riaz,
"The bottom line is that both India and Pakistan have a lot of work to do to improve the miserable situation of their average citizen"
That's better. When you are challenged on your stats, you get less jingoistic. So don't keep posting that same data over & over again to convince yourself that Pakistanis is so much better fed than Indians.
Besides, if you see the table
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Hunger_Index
In 1990 Pakistn's rate was 25.3 & in 2008 was 21.7
In 1990 India's rate was 32.5 & in 2008 was 23.7
So, one could argue that India's rates are falling faster than Pakistan's.
"The bottom line is that both India and Pakistan have a lot of work to do to improve the miserable situation of their average citizen"
That's better. When you are challenged on your stats, you get less jingoistic. So don't keep posting that same data over & over again to convince yourself that Pakistanis is so much better fed than Indians.
Besides, if you see the table
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Hunger_Index
In 1990 Pakistn's rate was 25.3 & in 2008 was 21.7
In 1990 India's rate was 32.5 & in 2008 was 23.7
So, one could argue that India's rates are falling faster than Pakistan's.
#83 Posted by RiazHaq on June 22, 2009 6:04:47 am
Re: # 82
MAJ,
It is not unusual to see conflicting data from different researchers, particularly when the difference is not huge, as is the case between India and Pakistan. Both suffer from the same ailments of poverty, malnutrition and backwardness shared by South Asia region as a whole.
But when you are faced with such data discrepancies in business and science, you normally go with the preponderance of evidence from the majority specialist researchers and combine it with anecdotal observations by independent observers.
In this instance, the preponderance of evidence from specialists such as IFPRI and WFP, and observations by Dalrymple, Sen and others should give the edge to Pakistan over India.
The bottom line is that both India and Pakistan have a lot of work to do to improve the miserable situation of their average citizen.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
MAJ,
It is not unusual to see conflicting data from different researchers, particularly when the difference is not huge, as is the case between India and Pakistan. Both suffer from the same ailments of poverty, malnutrition and backwardness shared by South Asia region as a whole.
But when you are faced with such data discrepancies in business and science, you normally go with the preponderance of evidence from the majority specialist researchers and combine it with anecdotal observations by independent observers.
In this instance, the preponderance of evidence from specialists such as IFPRI and WFP, and observations by Dalrymple, Sen and others should give the edge to Pakistan over India.
The bottom line is that both India and Pakistan have a lot of work to do to improve the miserable situation of their average citizen.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
#82 Posted by MAJ on June 22, 2009 5:49:41 am
Riaz Haq sahib,
FAO's report places India in a somewhat better light than Pak, so does UNDP's HDI which places India a few notches above Pakistan. IFPRI or whatever else that organisation is places Pak better than India.
Naturally, you wud think that IFPRI is a more reliable source than FAO or UNDP. I don't blame you for that.
Regards
FAO's report places India in a somewhat better light than Pak, so does UNDP's HDI which places India a few notches above Pakistan. IFPRI or whatever else that organisation is places Pak better than India.
Naturally, you wud think that IFPRI is a more reliable source than FAO or UNDP. I don't blame you for that.
Regards
#81 Posted by RiazHaq on June 22, 2009 5:41:57 am
Re: # 75
MAJ,
Thanks for sharing the link.
Here's what I think:
There are enough other reports, including IFPRI's 2008 World Hunger Report and UNDP's PHI paper, that contradict the findings of this one report by FAO.
The data in this reports is clearly at odds with the 2008 World Hunger Index data published by IFPRI toward the end of last year that ranks Pakistan at 61 versus India at 66 and Bangladesh at 70.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/7670229.stm
http://www.ifpri.org/PUBS/c p/ghi08.asp
This FAO report also conflicts with UN WFP paper describing PHI (Poverty-Hunger) index that measures progress toward UN MDGs and ranks Pakistan at 45, well ahead of India at 62.
http://motherchildnutrition.org/resources/pdf/mcn-how-are-we-doing.pdf
In addition, the FAO data defies personal, anecdotal evidence reported by many foreigners (including Dalrymple) and India's own development economist Amartya Sen, who says India has fared worse than any other country in the world at preventing recurring hunger.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/aug/14/pakistan.india1
http://w ww.rediff.com/money/2007/apr/26amartya.htm
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
MAJ,
Thanks for sharing the link.
Here's what I think:
There are enough other reports, including IFPRI's 2008 World Hunger Report and UNDP's PHI paper, that contradict the findings of this one report by FAO.
The data in this reports is clearly at odds with the 2008 World Hunger Index data published by IFPRI toward the end of last year that ranks Pakistan at 61 versus India at 66 and Bangladesh at 70.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/7670229.stm
http://www.ifpri.org/PUBS/c p/ghi08.asp
This FAO report also conflicts with UN WFP paper describing PHI (Poverty-Hunger) index that measures progress toward UN MDGs and ranks Pakistan at 45, well ahead of India at 62.
http://motherchildnutrition.org/resources/pdf/mcn-how-are-we-doing.pdf
In addition, the FAO data defies personal, anecdotal evidence reported by many foreigners (including Dalrymple) and India's own development economist Amartya Sen, who says India has fared worse than any other country in the world at preventing recurring hunger.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/aug/14/pakistan.india1
http://w ww.rediff.com/money/2007/apr/26amartya.htm
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
#80 Posted by malikrashid on June 22, 2009 5:36:51 am
Re: # 78
nkg
Things look better in West Bengal, you said. Why did CPIM lose support in the elections?
nkg
Things look better in West Bengal, you said. Why did CPIM lose support in the elections?
#79 Posted by nkg on June 22, 2009 5:32:35 am
Re: # 51
malik rashid...
almost 9/10 members of my family is related to education, with one member in one of the topmost post in Primary Education...
The number of schools have not increased too much...The students increased many times and though in % term will be very less, volume wise it is very high...Student/teacher ratio has gone for toss and then, if you force students to come to school on the basis that they will get good food, education remains in backburner...In my native state, primary teachers are now assuming role of chef and dietician than teacher...and it almost destroyed the focus on education in rural areas...Dr. MM Joshi had done great blunder...
The scenario in Higher education is also not very good...It is not improving, the way it should be...IITs were great graduate schools, but never excellent research organisations....Neither, they are looking to be like MIT in near future...Quality of secondary education looks quite decent and I think, that is the reason Bush to Obama praises India along with China etc...that Indian students of 7th/8th standard are smarter than those of USA....
malik rashid...
almost 9/10 members of my family is related to education, with one member in one of the topmost post in Primary Education...
The number of schools have not increased too much...The students increased many times and though in % term will be very less, volume wise it is very high...Student/teacher ratio has gone for toss and then, if you force students to come to school on the basis that they will get good food, education remains in backburner...In my native state, primary teachers are now assuming role of chef and dietician than teacher...and it almost destroyed the focus on education in rural areas...Dr. MM Joshi had done great blunder...
The scenario in Higher education is also not very good...It is not improving, the way it should be...IITs were great graduate schools, but never excellent research organisations....Neither, they are looking to be like MIT in near future...Quality of secondary education looks quite decent and I think, that is the reason Bush to Obama praises India along with China etc...that Indian students of 7th/8th standard are smarter than those of USA....
#78 Posted by nkg on June 22, 2009 5:20:39 am
shankar...
Riaz Haq is right...The central Indian states are like sub saharan countries and the number of people are not less..If Mumbai is one of the wealthiest cities, just 200 KM east and north from Mumbai, you will find the poorest region on earth...I used to stay in Matunga Rly Qrtrs for couple of months...The road contractors hire tribals for 100/200 INR /month for road works...and opposite to my quarter, there was Poddar College and another College...Students enjoy cosines of their Girl friends on Opel/Fiat cars...I have seen such stark scenario in Mumbai/Maharashtra...If you leave out tribal belt ( Orrissa,MP,Chhattisgarh...) and cow belt, Indian statistics will look far better...
But the progress I have witnessed in West Bengal is immense...There is no rural beggar or even we are not finding domestic help in my native place in Sunderbans!!!!Agricultural productivity increased a lot...
Riaz Haq is right...The central Indian states are like sub saharan countries and the number of people are not less..If Mumbai is one of the wealthiest cities, just 200 KM east and north from Mumbai, you will find the poorest region on earth...I used to stay in Matunga Rly Qrtrs for couple of months...The road contractors hire tribals for 100/200 INR /month for road works...and opposite to my quarter, there was Poddar College and another College...Students enjoy cosines of their Girl friends on Opel/Fiat cars...I have seen such stark scenario in Mumbai/Maharashtra...If you leave out tribal belt ( Orrissa,MP,Chhattisgarh...) and cow belt, Indian statistics will look far better...
But the progress I have witnessed in West Bengal is immense...There is no rural beggar or even we are not finding domestic help in my native place in Sunderbans!!!!Agricultural productivity increased a lot...
#77 Posted by shankar on June 22, 2009 3:38:37 am
Thanks MAJ
We need an Indian spin googler to burst Riaz's bubble.
We need an Indian spin googler to burst Riaz's bubble.
#76 Posted by harish_hyd on June 22, 2009 3:19:16 am
#75 by MAJ
Majumdar bhai, didn't you know the only data Riaz c*****a considers genuine (and from "reputable" sources) is the data that shows Pakistan better off than India?
Majumdar bhai, didn't you know the only data Riaz c*****a considers genuine (and from "reputable" sources) is the data that shows Pakistan better off than India?
#75 Posted by MAJ on June 22, 2009 1:26:14 am
Riaz Haq sahib,
I have some data which might interest you.
ftp://ftp.fao.org/docrep/fao/011/i0291e/i0291e00.pdf
Pg 48
In India, the number of undernourished people increased from 207 mn to 231 mn (growth of 12% in absolute numbers) in terms of prevalence % a decrease from 24% to 21%. In Pakistan, the number of undernourished people increased from 26 mn to 35 mn (growth of 35% in absolute numbers) in terms of % an actual increase from 22% to 23%
Pg 51
Avg calorie consumption- 2360 for India, 2340 for Pak
Regards
I have some data which might interest you.
ftp://ftp.fao.org/docrep/fao/011/i0291e/i0291e00.pdf
Pg 48
In India, the number of undernourished people increased from 207 mn to 231 mn (growth of 12% in absolute numbers) in terms of prevalence % a decrease from 24% to 21%. In Pakistan, the number of undernourished people increased from 26 mn to 35 mn (growth of 35% in absolute numbers) in terms of % an actual increase from 22% to 23%
Pg 51
Avg calorie consumption- 2360 for India, 2340 for Pak
Regards
#74 Posted by RiazHaq on June 21, 2009 2:32:20 pm
Re: # 70
All of the data I share is from reputable national and international organizations that do apples-to-apples comparisons based on populations. I do not manufacture these numbers to make any country look better or worse than than the other.
Please challenge any specific data or sources you have a problem with rather than make a sweeping and general statement based on your own misconception.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
All of the data I share is from reputable national and international organizations that do apples-to-apples comparisons based on populations. I do not manufacture these numbers to make any country look better or worse than than the other.
Please challenge any specific data or sources you have a problem with rather than make a sweeping and general statement based on your own misconception.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide
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