Watching Poverty Grow

RIAZ SAAB In a country where police,judiciary,army are corrupt will have corrupt leaders like NAWAZ=ZARDARI-ETC too.

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Re: # 183
The judges are paying Sharifs back for their support. So much for the independent judiciary.

The Transparency International surveys indicate that Pakistani Judiciary is the third most corrupt institution after Police and Customs. And there are very broad and sweeping laws permitting the judges to hold any one in contempt of court with few, if any, legal and constitutional mechanisms to hold the judges accountable.

According to Transparency International 2007 survey, the judiciaries of India and Pakistan fare badly, with 77 per cent and 55 per cent of respondents in the two countries, respectively, describing the judicial system as corrupt.

http://fcpablog.blogspot.com/2008/02/disorder-in-court-last-call.htm l
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Nawaz cleared in chopper case...what u guys think about this,seems like all the thugs and criminals are getting protection from courts.

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Re: # 173
Partly driven by the need to pacify the West, a dictator like Musharraf had a keen desire to acquire legitimacy of democracy with a parliament where only the feudal lords can get elected in large numbers in Pakistan. Besides, he wanted to be liked rather than be feared by the people of his country. So he liberalized the media and allowed freedom of expression and criticism that ultimately pulled him down.

And he chose to do it the way Zia and Ayub did it before him. He got some of the PML politicians for hire and formed a civilian government under him that was legitimized by elections.

But I think it was a mistake. Instead of hiring these politicians, he should have emasculated them by taking away their lands and demolished their feudal power to rid the rural poor of their biggest tormentors.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 180..I am not saying that another General should take over country,we need new generation to make their political party and reject old politicians and their families,we had some hope from imran khan but he came out as big failure and disappointment,hope no one else becomes imran khan,but like I said there are talented,educated,liberal,progressive people in Pakistan,hope one day they change this system.

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If history of Pakistan is any indicator, this revolution they are talking about could be no more than another miliary coup. The people will be made to suffer and the country could break-up.

Khudah nay aaj tuck oos qaum key haalut naheen budlee, na ho jis ko khiyal upnee haalut kay badulnay kah. (Lord Almighty has never changed the condition of any nation, ever, which did not come forward to work for it.) Everything in this world is possible, but the biggest deficiency that our nation suffers from in this regard, today, is that, instead of each and everyone of us becoming restless in organising to come together to change our condition for the better, "collectively", no doubt, we always leave almost everything to be done by the almighty government or for Lord Almighty. Nothing will change, never, not until each and everyone of the nation will care and come to work for that change.
Education is the most important tool in any nation's progress,but you still need one IRON HAND to impose that change.The day Pakistani nation reject all those criminals who are still steeling nation's money,that day will be day one of Pakistan's rebirth.

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Abay Khyber, kya bak raha hai, you do not
need revolution bevolution, you just need
people with right priorities working hard,
day after day, not obsessing over Kashmir but obsessing over education and Industry
and technology. There is no easy way, it is
all hard work.
In these days, revolutions do not happen, and to make revolution, you have to be brutal than the entity against who you are
rebelling. That is why revolution will not
succeed in China and Iran unless those revolting are crueler than the ruling class/cabal.

Re: # 176..That is true and I agree....what we need is a revolution in Pakistan, a sincere revolutionary who can get rid of feudal lords mullhas,mafia,feudal families and politicians...how to get rid of them....shoot em all..we need educated,liberal and progressive people to run the country.

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Re: # 175
Khyber
I can attempt to answer that in my own imperfect way. Military in Pakistan uses all resources of the country to strengthen itself. Millions of Pakistanis live in abject poverty. A military dictator finds it important to make alliance with feudal lords and mullas, who defend the military from the public outrage against plunder.

Re: # 173malik... Why does a dictator with absolute power needs such help?...Thats something i don't get.

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Re: # 172... RIAZHAQ...I agree and thats what I been saying like you mentioned,'' Musharraf's biggest mistake was to accept the fig-leaf of democracy by recruiting the notorious Chaudhry brothers to create the illusion of democracy under PML(Q) banner. ''
I think he was welcomed by liberals,educated people,who were getting fed up with the system,thats what I hate about him that when he took power he claimed he loves ATTA TURK...ETC ETC and then he screwed up by joining typical corrupt politicians like Chaudhry brothers,there is talent in Pakistan and he could get help from educated liberal and progressive minded class in Pakistan but he did not,he had a good chance to clean the country from corruption etc,I even e-mailed him and mentioned to him that he has a good chance to kill all the politicians,mullahs..well I am sure he did not read that but I think he missed a good opportunity.

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Re: # 172
Mr. Haq
You said the inclusion of PML(Q) was a mistake by Musharraf.
I repeat my question. Why does a dictator with absolute power needs such help?

Re: # 171
In hindsight, Musharraf's biggest mistake was to accept the fig-leaf of democracy by recruiting the notorious Chaudhry brothers to create the illusion of democracy under PML(Q) banner. His second biggest mistake was to liberalize the mass media, proliferate the cell phones, and make the uncensored Internet widely available, all of which proved to be his undoing.

I guess he was too keen to be liked by the people. He should have preferred to be feared rather than liked by Pakistanis, particularly the bad guys. But, as Stephen Cohen put it, Musharraf was not ruthless. He was too tolerant of his critics, even debated with them often.

“Musharraf is widely viewed as a military strongman who should be pressed to hold free and fair elections this year. Both the characterization of him and the policy recommendation are misguided,� Cohen said in an op-ed piece titled The Pakistan Time Bomb in The Washington Post in July 2007. “Musharraf’s problem is that he has failed to act swiftly and ruthlessly to set Pakistan’s politics on a proper course, and he knows that given the complexity of the internal problems, the holding of free and fair elections might not check Pakistan’s drift toward extremism.�

He should have ruled with an iron hand, abolished the feudal system and curbed public expression and protests by the middle class and put his entire focus on economic growth and uplift of the poor, particularly the rural poor who have suffered greatly under feudal and tribal chiefs. He should have put much greater focus on reducing poverty, increasing literacy and improving health care.

But I still think he is going be judged as a "good, benevolent dictator" by historians of the future.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 170
Your admission of time-line for the onset of the current economic crisis in Pakistan gives me hope that we could straighten out some differences.
Do you think PML(Q) are better compared to other politicians? Why would a dictator seek participation of some corrupt politicians instead of others? Is there anything inherently absent in a dictatorship that makes them rely on corrupt political stooges? If so, what is it?

Re: # 165
By the end of 2007, NRO had been signed under pressure from the US sponsors of BB, and full-blown political turmoil had engulfed the nation hitting every aspect of the economy.

Job losses had started, transmission lines were being destroyed, power theft was in full swing because of the political patrons, the IPPs were not being paid by KESC/WAPDA and they had started cutting back power generation, the wheat crisis was blown out of proportion, etc.

In other words, politics had overtaken the truth and common sense. But things were still significantly better than they are today. It was the election of PPP and PML (N) thugs that has brought total economic disaster.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 166
Khyber
I think the role of Pakistan army in 62 years could be useful to determine their political character as well as their crimes against the people. Musharraf's role is a part of this setup where the army takes over the country when they want and run the country as their subservient fiefdom.

#166 why they dont kick musharraf out of chak shahzad and bring him to trial for his vicious crimes against the pakistani people is beyond me. pakistanis are too tolerant of thugs. in fact, properties created through abuse of office by musharraf in islamabad and by other rogues like AQ Khan (jeopardized pakistani security by enriching himself through sale of nuclear secrets) should be confiscated and turned into orphanages.

http://www.asia-pacific-action.org/node/69

Pakistan: $23.8 Billion Corruption From Privatization Under Musharraf
"1550 billions Rupees (US$23.84 billion) worth of corruption in Privatization process during 8 years of Musharraf dictatorship."
Farooq Tariq, Labor Party Pakistan: There has been massive corruption during the eight years of Musharraf-Shoukat power period from 1999 until 2007. It is very clear that the privatization process has not been proved as a key to economic development as was claimed by the government, but instead a total disaster for the economy.

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In a country,where people are selling kids and kidneys,can't claim economically successful,its a shame that Pakistani elite and wealthy politicians are building palaces but then they beg for money from other countries. Musharraf included the most corrupt elements among the civilians in his own government.
This is a tragic truth of our nation that army generals always give protection to most criminal personilites of Pakistan. Its really amazing that when Mush took power he was against all the negative stuff,corruption etc but like I said before,he jumped into same corrupt club of politicians.

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Re: # 162
Politically motivated defence of Musharraf is factually incorrect. By the end of 2007 prices of necessary commodities shot up. There was wheat shortage which necessitated import. Long hours of load-shedding had already begun. Oil prices went up. The lawyers movement had been curbed by imposing emergency. Judges and their families were put under house arrest. Musharraf's legacy includes deals with Taliban and military operation in Balochistan. Besides a public mandate, the present rulers needed a deal with the army to assume power. The role of army in the history of Pakistan has not been quite constructive, instead it was the military rulers who presided over the debacle of East Pakistan.

Re: # 163
Correction: I share in your sadness.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 161
I share in your address. It's a great loss to the world of music and entertainment.

Jackson was a musical genius but he leaves a very mixed legacy because of his personal problems, particularly the allegations of child molestation.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 158
Your view is a not shared by most international observers and independent economists. The data on growth in Pakistan's economy, employment, industrial development, telecom boom, middle class growth, vibrant media, etc. speaks volumes for itself, regardless of your politically motivated criticisms of Musharraf's economic legacy.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 160... I am deeply saddened by the death of the most unique talent the world has seen in pop music. Michael Jackson was one of the greatest music icons of the 20th Century. A true star who will never be forgotten.God Bless him.

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Re: # 157
He was only 50. A huge loss for the world of music.

Re: # 158..well said,thats what military dictators leave for our nation,Zia left drug mafia,weapon,religious fanaticism,MUSHY BOY took power and claimed he is in love with ATTA TURK and then he jumped into greedy politicians club.

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Re: # 154
General Musharraf left the economy in shambles. Power outages, higher gas prices and political uncertainty(lawyers movement and Taliban) was his legacy which the (so-called) civilian government inherited from the military dictator. The present government seems representing a civilian face to the military establishment but democratic process has just begun. The sovereignty of civilian rule is yet to be established.

Here is a breaking news......CNN

Michael Jackson is dead

The L.A. Times and TMZ.com report that Michael Jackson has died after going into cardiac arrest.

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Re: # 155
I agree. In resource rich economies, such as GCC nations, where the rulers do not need to tax their people to meet expenses, they do not have to listen to the people. Instead, they bribe their people to be fat, dumb and happy to maintain their power.

But even in India and Pakistan, only a very small fraction of people pay taxes and they often do not get their voices heard because they are such a small minority.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

imo democracy works with taxation, esp successful income taxation. in arabi and islami world, there is little of that with oil etc..where there is (turkey e.g.) it kinda works. india it works moderately since taxation (income) is also moderate...its about link of accountability

Re: # 152
PPP-Zardari inherited record reserves exceeding $16 billion and a fast growing economy. It's their mismanagement that has cratered it.

Summing up the economic situation last year,the Economist magazine in its June 12 issue said as follows:" (The current) macroeconomic disarray will be familiar to the coalition government led by the Pakistan People's Party of Asif Zardari, and to Nawaz Sharif, whose party provides it “outside support�. Before Mr Sharif was ousted in 1999, the two parties had presided over a decade of corruption and mismanagement. But since then, as the IMF remarked in a report in January, there has been a transformation. Pakistan attracted over $5 billion in foreign direct investment in the 2006-07 fiscal year, ten times the figure of 2000-01. The government's debt fell from 68% of GDP in 2003-04 to less than 55% in 2006-07, and its foreign-exchange reserves reached $16.4 billion as recently as in October."
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 147.From Tahmed post,''Larry Summers was there in the panel, and he posed a question to him: How many people have you sent to jail for non-compliance with tax codes?''
I think there is no accountabilty at all,they all create NAB etc but then they don't punish real criminals and elite who are responsible for all this mess.

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Re: # 151RiazH..thats ok,sounds good but then what happens to all that money,every time there is a new regime in Pakistan the first thing they declare,''COUNTRY IS BANKRUPT'' and their begging bowel starts floating around the globe?

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Re: # 147
Pakistan made a lot of progress since 1999 (Sartaj Aziz) in revenue collection when Shaukat Aziz appointed Abdullah Yousuf as the nation's chief tax collector.

Yusuf's key accomplishments included doubling of the revenue collection to achieve an aggressive target of over Rs 1.04 trillion in 2007-08; implementation of broad-based reforms within the tax system; universal self-assessment regimes; paperless customs clearances and e-filing systems and customer responsiveness with the business trade and bodies for creating a friendly business environment. Before Mr. Yusuf's reforms, the tax collection bureaucracy in Pakistan was notoriously corrupt and inefficient and he faced a lot of internal resistance. It improved significantly during Yusuf's tenure according to a lot of anecdotal evidence I have heard.

But as soon as the PPP government took over, he was disgracefully fired while he was out of the country attending a customs conf.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 144Hi Tahmed...The problem with Jinnah concept of secular Pakistan was that that all the leaders who took power twist his ideas according to their political needs,classic examples are of ZAB AND Zia,ZAB used to make his ideas as socialist and Zia made him and sound like mullah,ZAB had some sincere bones for the nation and the country but rest of those who took power never cared about the nation.I read somewhere that military censored first speech of jinnah,I don't if its true or not and may be if RIAZHAQ reading this post can Google and verify it....lol

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Re: # 147
Reflecting on my experience at the Income-Tax department in Karachi I can tell you that tax-evasion and bribery is endemic. Those who start off with a determination to abide by the rules are the worst sufferers. Most of them give up and indulge in the customary practise of beating the system. Wealthy are above the law although rules exist for imprisonment of evaders.

Re: # 146
Tahmed32
Wahabism worldwide turning into terrorism worldwide is a story of oil-wealth in the hands of ignorant, medieval Saudis and some other Arabs. Their influence runs deeper than their oil money in the sunni religious discourse. The non-arab muslims value the Arab interpretation of Islam as a political force without noticing the religious part that such interpretation totally killed.

malikrashid #145 back in the 1990's i attended a seminar where Sartaj Aziz (pakistani finance minister) was recounting measures being taken to increase revenue collection. Larry Summers was there in the panel, and he posed a question to him: How many people have you sent to jail for non-compliance with tax codes? I dont recall Sartaj sahibs response, but I thought it was a good question.

Khyber #131 not only is the number of books published in the muslim world small - the quality of what is written is not worth the paper it is written on (particularly the crap put out by the "ulema").

more significantly, it struck me when visiting Jeddah that there was no book store either at the airport or in the city!! all they had were shops selling tawdry "luxuries" (entire shops for perfumes, luggage). i bet Rawalpindi alone has more book stores than all of Saudi Arabia. And yet - it is to these jahils that so many pakistanis look to as being incapable of doing anything wrong.

Re: # 143
Tahmed32
Agriculture makes up 22% of GDP and revenue collected from that sector is below 1%. Interact #6 states India's revenue at 17% compared to Pakistan's 9% for 2008-09. This is a huge difference and speaks for the present financial in-capability of the country.

Khyber #134 Jinnah did not leave behind any clear vision for Pakistan - all we have is his speeches calling for a secular Pakistan. But secular is just a start - but things have not been at a standstill. Pakistan is so far behind that the distance covered by other nations over the centuries - the US and UK in particular - has provided the unconscious basis for moving forward. Most strikingly as part of the lawyer's movement, where concepts of basic rights and the habeas corpus and proper elections were drilled home thanks to the "Second Jinnah" (the Chief Justice).

#137 malikrashid: the agriculture tax will go away once the urban population increases, and thus there are fewer landlords in the NA. at least that is my uneducated opinion.

#138 couldnt agree more. zardari, to his credit, is emphasizing opening up rich markets for pakistani trade. and to a limited extent that has taken place - with the creation of special trade zones in tribal areas as part of the strategy to give the locals a stake in the world economy.

Re: # 140
Instead of engaging in your wishful thinking about Pakistan's destruction, you should worry about a bloody revolution in your own country where hunger, poverty and rich-poor gap are growing.

India continues to lag behind Pakistan, Bangladesh, even most of sub-Saharan Africa in terms of basic nutrition by its own admission (See Indian planning commission member Syeda Hamid's statement), while you and your ilk play up the "Shining India" image and believe in your own BS.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

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Re: # 138
Salaried individuals have no choice. They pay tax but the feudal lords have themseves exempt from income-tax. The demand to bring agriculture in the fold of taxation must be raised with a strong voice.

It's about time that we all realise that you cannot just run the country on foreign loans. People of Pakistan, should finance their own government, instead of making it dependent on foreign aid. If the people of Pakistan want their country to be successful like all European countries then they must pay tax to the government, because this is the only way to become independent of all other nations. It should start from Pakistani elite and wealthy politicians.


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Mwaqar

Re: # 136
Khyber
They beg for aid and make no effort at increasing revenue by collecting tax on agricultural income. The feudal-lords, military and the mullas may eat up all foreign aid and Pakistan could find itself at the brink of collapse again.

Re: # 135malikR...I agree,so Zardari is custodian of Pakistan's begging bowl now,can someone tell me what happens to all that money we get in aid and charity in our begging bowl from all over the World???
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Re: # 131
Khyber
I think Iran publishes the most books compared to other muslim countries. True, that the participation of muslims from muslim countries is severely hampered by the state's sanctioning and censure of material. Such atmosphere discourages scholarship and research which translates in poor literacy rates as well as the number of books published.

On the eve of independence, Mr.Jinnah held out a glorious vision for Pakistan's future, a vision of a prosperous and tolerant people, a responsible government free from corruption, nepotism and jobbery, and an enlightened society. This was the spirit of 1947.Over Sixty years on we are nowhere close to that vision. By the age of 63 a COUNTRY - like a man - should have achieved a certain maturity. After decades of existence we know, for good and for bad, who we are, what we have done and how we appear to others. But unfortunately, Pakistan remains curiously immature,a Country with less then 50% rate of literacy can’t bring political wisdom that usually accompanies age. But today the country's national narrative of macho victimhood appears to the rest of the world as simply bizarre.Who is responsible for that???The elite, bourgeious, feudal politicians,mullhas,civilian and military bureaucracy.
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Re: # 131
Good Point Khyber. At the time of French revolution in 1780s, there were many libraries and literacy rate was high. Lack of focus on education and the pressure to censure all that does not fit the so-called moral criteria has kept us backward.

Re: # 130
Mr. Haq
I am overawed by all the advice and lecture on participation. As you would know, lesser mortals like me indulge most of their waking hours worrying about a livelihood, family and friends. In this mortal cycle of birth, procreation and death, we happen to do good inadvertently or without a deliberate decision. With some disdain for the smallness of our contribution, publicity of our share could be shameful for us. Without any comparison to your towering achievements in life, I went through the usual cycle of learning, making friends, a family and associations like other ordinary individuals. Communicating with others on the basis of my life experience and listening to others is pleasureable time for me. It is like having a beer with friends. My life experience does have a few bitter and sad stories and I do not find it necessary to describe them in any other way but as sad and bitter.
Thank You.

Around 6,000 books are published in United States every year. In Pakistan, or for that matter, in rest of the Islamic world, the number of books published every year hardly crosses the triple digits. Isn't the cause of our downfall obvious? Time to stop blaming the west for our own failings,stop living in denial.
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Re: # 129
malik, As you proclaim your faith in democracy and its ability to solve all of the serious problems you also highlight, it is important that you understand what democracy means as it is practiced in developed nations of the world, where it does help the average people escape hunger and poverty and illiteracy.

Just voting and selecting the rulers by free and fair elections is only the beginning. And then the real job of governance begins. It requires active participation of the people at all levels who understand their rights and obligations of being citizens of a democratic society.

Here are a couple of quotes from Alex de Tocqueville's book "Democracy in America":

"The health of a democratic society may be measured by the quality of functions performed by private citizens."

"Americans of all ages, all stations of life and all types of disposition are forever forming associations. There are not only commercial and industrial associations in which all take part, but others of a thousand types-religious, moral, serious, futile, very general and very limited, immensely large and very minute."

If democracy were a magic wand and a panacea, we would see a real "Shining"example of it next door. The reality, as we all know it, is quite the opposite. Democracy in India has failed to solve even the basic issues of widespread hunger and poverty.




Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 128
While you are stuck between military dictatorship and a bloody revolution the people of Pakistan will like to keep their democracy and achieve their rights. Truth sounds cynical to those who live in complete disregard of their surroundings.

Re: # 126
I think you are barking up the wrong tree.

You have an extremely ambitious agenda, with a cynical attitude toward all of the institutions in Pakistan.

You keep talking about eradicating the feudal system, emasculating the military, giving provinces their rights and putting an end to religious zealotry before attempting to help the people in whatever modest way you can. In other words, you want nothing short of a revolution NOW! In the meanwhile, you want to let the problems grow and fester. Maybe you believe in sowing the seeds of a revolution by letting the problems get much worse. But revolutions are often bloody and their outcomes unpredictable. Those who wish for a revolution often become its first victims.

Your political obsessions prevent you from seeing what is the most effective way NOW to help the people who are hurting the most. And how to empower them the best way you can short of a revolution.

While I disagree with your course, it's obviously up to you to decide in your own conscience what is best for you and what you do for the causes you care about.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 125
Political change cannot happen until people are prosperous and educated, you insist, but that is totally wrong. Political changes occurred in and around us during our life-time. East Pakistan seceded. Your conclusion that democracy has failed in Pakistan is also wrong. Democracy in Pakistan has never been accomodated by the over-bearing army and their allies. If Pakistan has to live, it must go through the required political changes democratically.

Re: # 125
I never advised you to stop supporting Pakistan military.
Did I?
You are obviously anguished by my politacal stance. The government and institutions in Pakistan run a campaign against those who raise sensible voice in politics. They are denied jobs and out-casted. With growth of media and technology, somebody like me finds a space to write critically about Pakistan military/government, feudal-lords and mullas but it hurts some like twitter is hurting the mullas of Iran.

Re: # 124
Political change can not be brought about in the absence of a critical mass of people who are reasonably well-educated and well-fed and care enough about their fellow citizens.

If you want to end the madrassah style charity that brainwashes young people into becoming terrorists, then you have to offer an alternative. Both civilian and military governments have clearly failed to provide such an alternative. So critics such as you and I have to do it.

But you need to change tracks from your entirely political agenda and focus to a more human-centered agenda. That's the best way for us to influence the situation right now.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 123
Participation in charity does not replace the importance of political change. Charity foundations that have the blessings of the military preach hatred and convert poor, jobless youth into fidais.

Re: # 118
malikrashid,
The welfare city of Rashidabad, located near Hyderabad Sind and spread over 100 acres, has a number of schools, dorms, hospitals, orphanages etc. The entire complex has been built and is being run by various private trusts and foundations to help the poor get education, food, housing and healthcare. Replicating this effort all over the country can make a significant difference in the lives of the rural poor.

I think we should all participate in and support such efforts to give hope to the people under the horrible feudal/tribal systems.

There is a good post on Rashidabad on Pakistaniat.com website. Here's the link: http://pakistaniat.com/2009/06/24/rashidabad/
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 121
This is the easiest thing for the government. Sardars were awarded lands by the British. If some infrastructure and access allowing people to move freely and work could be managed, Sardari system would lose control over people.

They should make Baluchistan a free state - by breaking the hold of the tribal sardars.

Re: # 114
Saeedullahjan
I agree with you. Pakistan has been ruled as a unitary form of government instead of a federation. Successive military dictators have kept the country under a tight rule from Islamabad. The province were robbed and mutilated by military operation. Democracy gives us a hope to bring it out in the open.

Re: # 116
Taliban were re-distributing lands and kicking major land holders out. By postponing a land reform Pakistan government will only allow Taliban to regroup.

Re: # 115
Thanks again for your advice to participate in charity and stop writing about the suffering Pakistanis. Pakistan's future depends on these two issues. Abolition of feudalism and restoration of the rights of provinces. By pre-conditioning it to a benevolent dictator that god may send, you are condemning Pakistan to a definite extinction. Pakistanis must sort these things out before it is too late.

Re: # 105
mystic...
They deserve that...
Govt. was not monitoring their performance for long time, ans so they have no right to put the burden on employees...
With rising oil prices and economic slowdown, I am sure, private players will not be interested to acquire it....

Re: # 112
malik...
feudalism still exists in some part of India...That is the reason behind growth of Naxalism...But, these naxailite menace is helping Govt. to weed out this problem...
I think, that may be the reason, many people of Pakistan is supporting Talibs, hoping that the society will change...But, that will strengthen Islamic system in Pakistan, which will be far worse...

Re: # 112
I think you have to understand the basic difference between feudal-dominated Muslim League that created Pakistan and the mostly-middle-class dominated Indian National Congress that led to India's independence. Nehru moved very quickly to end feudal power right after independence. Pakistan did not. Only Jinnah was popular enough with the people that he could have taken on the feudal lords to end their dominance, but he only lived for year after Pakistan's independence.

As to your claim of restoring judiciary and its comparison to ending system are both ludicrous. Restoring a couple of judges did not make the judiciary independent nor did it improve access to justice for the ordinary folks. And feudal system is far more entrenched in Pakistan than any military dictators or military dominance. Feudals touch far more lives in Pakistan than the military. Feudals own most of Pakistan.

About 70% or more of the parliament members have been and continue to be from the big landowning families in Punjab and Sind. Landowning has been the main path to begin a political career in Pakistan. And the power is still handed from father to son (or daughter) in most cases. There is no one like Yadav or Mayawati in Pakistani politics.

Would these feudal politicians ever vote voluntarily to part with their lands? They are not even willing to pay any taxes on their income.

The lawyers would never bring any one on the streets to fight the feudal system. They simply don't care for the ordinary rural folks in Pakistan. Besides, many of the key leaders of the lawyers movement themselves have close links with feudals.

And if you think a judge can simply order an end to feudal system, you are seriously mistaken about how things work in a British style constitutional democracy where parliament has far more power than other branches of government.

In the short term, only a bloody revolution or a caring powerful dictator can end the feudal system by seizing the vast landholding of Bhuttos, Jatois, Chaudhries, Makhdooms etc.

As to the economic progress, there is absolutely no question that it has been much faster under military dictators than under feudal civilian leadership. The only government that substantially raised education spending was the Musharraf government. No one before him or after him has done that.

So my advice to you is to do what you can through private organized efforts to uplift the people living under the oppressive feudal system. Eventually, there will be hope for them if we care enough to lift them out of poverty, illiteracy and deprivation.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Reference "restoration of the rights of provinces is necessary for the future of Pakistan" Malik Sahib to Riaz Sahib .,., What is the way forward keeping in view the 1940 Resolution, the Independence Act of 1947, the Constitution-1973 ,please !

Re: # 112
malik...
true (local level) democracy abolishes all these evils...
I have seen so many large land holders loosing their properties and social status to elected leaders of the lowest in caste hierarchy....
Basic problem of education, health etc. is social issue, and I think democracy alone is not the solution for this type of problem...Govt. need to invest on these sectors...local level democracry bring accountability to the grassroot level...

Re: # 111
Mr. Haq
I completely disagree. Feudalism was abolished in India without going through all that. If a judiciary could be re-installed against the wishes of the military and feudal lords, why feudalism cannot be abolished. You pointed out that the revenue collected by India is 17% compared to Pakistan's 9% for 2008-09 and tax on agricultural income and products could make a huge difference. Your knowledge tells you this must be done but you make military dictatorship a condition for achieving it. Military has ruled the country for a very long time. They did not change any social structure instead they created Taliban. Please insist on implementing what you know to be vitally important. Provincial autonomy is another bleeding issue.
I like your passion for your country but Pakistan would be nowhere without Pakistanis. Expressing the suffering of the people is a task in itself. Those who sympathise with suffering are more in numbers than those who could be spurred by a competition. Democracy and abolition of feudalism are not mutually exclusive as you present them and restoration of the rights of provinces is necessary for the future of Pakistan.
Peace.

Re: # 110
There are only two possible ways in which feudalism can end: Revolution or Evolution.

Revolutions are usually violent and hard to predict. Revolutions also bring their baggage of violent revolutionaries who behave like the Chinese communists during cultural revolution, or the Taliban in Pakistan who initially drove the big feudal lords out of Swat before unleashing their own reign of terror on the population.

Evolution is by gradually bringing human development to the villages and expanding choices for employment created through faster economic growth and industrialization. We have this seen happen slowly over the years but more rapidly under military dictators in the 60s, 80s and earlier this decade.

The problem with military dictators in Pakistan are two-fold:

1. To placate the US and the West, Pakistani military dictators try and use the fig-leaf of democracy by recruiting the big feudal lords who support military dictators in exchange for maintaining the feudal system and their own feudal powers and corruption.

2. Military dictators are arbitrary and they invoke the anger of Pakistan's selfish urban middle class that cares more for its own rights and liberties than about the rural poor living under the feudal repression, the poor who need the economic growth to increase their employment choices to escape life on the feudal lands.

So my prognosis is that feudal system will eventually end in Pakistan but it will take a very long time. In the meanwhile, those who care, such as HDF, Hidaya, DIL, Agha Khan Foundation, Kashf etc, need to step up their efforts to build infrastructure and provide education and healthcare for the rural poor, and open up employment opportunities for them by supporting small and medium enterprises with financing and training.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 108
Mr. Haq
About abolition of feudalism in Pakistan;
How hard is it?
How long could it take?
Is it harder than fighting Taliban?
If we discuss ways to abolish feudalism, would it be going into 'solution-space'?

Re: # 108
Good advice. Thank You.

Re: # 107
I am all for eradicating feudalism. But you and I know it is not likely to happen any time soon in Pakistan. So what should we, as individuals, do until the day our dream of the end of feudalism is realized? That's where we need to focus by lighting candles instead of cursing darkness. Do some good deeds on our own, contribute time and money and encourage others to do the same.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 106
Mr. Haq
Highlighting the sufferinggs of Pakistani people might not be a vain enterprise in itself though suggesting eradication of feudalism did not sound like a constructive solution to you.
Instead, a competition of India and Pakistan for every issue that hurts the people might amount to a distracting indulgence.
Respect. Peace.

Re: # 91
malikrashid,
It is very fashionable among Pakistan's middle-class left-of-center liberal elite and the mainstream media to recite the endless list of problems Pakistan faces.

Unfortunately, the entire focus of your article and your commentary also remains on the recitation of such problems and you hardly ever get into the solutions space. Why is it?

How are you contributing to society by joining dime-a-dozen Pakistani critics in our land? What do you accomplish by constantly repeating what is wrong with Pakistan without ever offering any solutions and ideas of how to make it right?
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Air India seeks Rs 10,000-crore bailout





POVERTY GROWS AT THE EXPENCE OF SUBSIDIZING THE LUXURY TO FEW WHILE DHRAVI REMAINE WITHOUT LOW INCOME HOUSING A EXIST IN WEST

Air India seeks Rs 10,000-crore bailout
23 Jun 2009, 2121 hrs IST, IANS





NEW DELHI: India's flagship carrier Air India, which is struggling to cope with a cash crunch, will ask for a Rs.10,000-crore (about $2 billion)
bailout package from the central government, a senior official said.

Airline officials, who discussed the airline's financial problems with Civil Aviation Minister Praful Patel on Tuesday night, will meet top government officials again seeking help.

The minister arrived here on Tuesday after attending the Paris air show.

"We are looking for at least Rs.10,000 crore bailout package. I am not sure if the government would agree on this," said the Air India official, who did not want to be named.

Air India earlier said it was looking for a bailout package worth at least Rs.15,000 crore from the government.

Air India chairman and managing director Arvind Jadhav, Civil Aviation Secretary M. Madhavan Nambiar and other senior ministry and airline officials had met the Principal Secretary to the Prime Minister, T.K.A. Nair, Monday with the demands. But they did not get any assurance from Nair.

Jadhav last week met Cabinet Secretary K.M. Chandrasekhar.

National Aviation Co of India Ltd (NACIL), which owns Air India, had earlier announced that it would delay the salaries of its over 31,000 employees for 15 days. The management has also asked the top executives of the airline to forgo their one month's salary.

The employees, however, did not accept the management's decision and said they would go for an indefinite strike from July 1 if the management delays their salaries.

According to the International Air Transport Association (IATA), the global aviation industry is expected to lose about $9 billion this year.

The Centre for Asia Pacific Aviation (CAPA) says the Indian aviation industry is likely to incur around $2 billion losses this year.



Click here to comment on this story

Re: # 103
anil...
sir, you are far more senior and experienced than me...
May be, I should have put words in different way....
Bangalore is complementing Silicon Valley in couple of research areas....
GE,HP and Intel Labs in Bangalore are definitely doing some good work....

Re: # 102

nkg:

"...India is able to challenge Silicon Valley...."

This is a far fetched statement. Silicon Valley is known to reinvent itself, and transfer jobs where they can be performed more cost effectively. Printed Circuits moved, Semiconductor Fabs moved, Computer Manufacturing moved, Software moved. After each of these, Silicon Valley's wealth only increased, if wealth generation is a criteria of better performance. Each time these transitions took place the countries where these jobs moved also became richer in experience and generated jobs and wealth for the local economies of the countries.

As long as Silicon Valley continues to reinvent itself, it will continue to attract the best and the brightest. Clean Technologies, Solar Energies besides Genetics are happening here in Silicon Valley to reinvent itself. There are talent and institutions that make it possible for Silicon Valley to keep reinventing itself.

Riaz Haq...
With all the extreame poverties etc...India is able to maintain decent growth rate in power, industry and education,telecom sector...
With it's poor quality education, India is able to challenge Silicon Valley....
With poor quality manufacturing sector, India is producing decent vehicles from Tata, Mahindra and new defence technologies are getting absorbed day by day (LCA project helped India master 6/7 types of technologies)..India at least manufactures some of the consumer electronics items...
With poor quality healthcare system, India is able to get healthy number of "medical tourists"...
With 33 dominant cultures and ethnicities and even with large number of moslems, Indian internal problem is very less.....
India houses one of the most effective banking and financial management system ....

http://business.rediff.com/slide-show/2009/jun/23/slide-show-1-solar-pow er-and-indias-ambitious-plans.htm

http://www.suzlon.com

http://www.bharatf orge.com/company/profile.asp

http://www.moserbaer.com/overview.asp
some good stuff to show cause too, apart from soft power of it's heritage like ayurveda and yoga....

Re: # 99
BJ..
That is the sign of stupid intellectualism...
These Arundhuti Roy etc.. will support everything except any action of India. You tell her to relocate to Pakistan or any Urdoo/Musla country...I am sure, she will refuge....This is price of democracy, we ( India, USA, UK etc...) pay for.....

Re: # 96
Shankar...
Sir, cool down...Even if Pakistan is closer to India, that does not make any difference...Post cold war period, India have to concentrate far more on China and we are laggards there...
I am planning sell "hallal" botted water (to Pakis and other muslas), like the chinkus are selling us Deepavali items....

Re: # 97
[after 60 yrs of independence, Pakistan has a bad image in the world & India has a good one--even though the reality is different.]

If Dalrymple indeed said those words, it is interesting to contrast the same with his actions -- he has parked his fanny in Delhi since 1984 -- and not budged an inch!

#97 " This website is not an influential site...only Indo-Pak bigots live here."

Dr. Riaz, please dont be misled by Dr. Shankar. I hear Obama reads the chowk every morning in order to get the inside information. That is even before his daily security briefing!! This year a record number of college graduates in the US received Gift Memberships to Chowk.

Its interesting what Darlymple said---

after 60 yrs of independence, Pakistan has a bad image in the world & India has a good one--even though the reality is different.

I guess India's spin doctors have done a better job than Pakistan.
Burns you guys doesn't it?!:)

Riaz mian---that's why I said, don't waste your considerable spin doctoring skills on Chowk. This website is not an influential site...only Indo-Pak bigots live here. Not matter how many times you post favorite articles that you saved, over & over again, you wont change any minds.

I think your skills could be considerably more effective on comment boards in say...the Economist , which has a bigger & much more international audience.

Riaz,

Gee I'm so glad you quoted Darlymple. You have posted his "famous" paragraph for the nth time.

I wonder why you haven't quoted the REST of that "famous" article from the Guardian. That article compared India & Pakistan.

He highlighted 3 major issues that Pakistan has done worse than India:

1) lack of democracy

2) burgeoning jihadi culture

3) the most significant of all
EDUCATION progress

"The third major issue facing the country is its desperate education crisis. No problem in Pakistan casts such a long shadow over its future as the abject failure of the government to educate more than a fraction of its own people: at the moment, a mere 1.8% of Pakistan's GDP is spent on government schools. The statistics are dire: 15% of these government schools are without a proper building; 52% without a boundary wall; 71% without electricity."

"This education gap is the most striking way in which
Pakistan is lagging behind India: in India, 65% of the population is literate and the number rises every year: only last year, the Indian education system received a substantial boost of state funds.

But in Pakistan, the literacy figure is under half (it is currently 49%) and falling: instead of investing in education, Musharraf's military government is spending money on a cripplingly expensive fleet of American F-16s for its air force. As a result, out of 162 million Pakistanis, 83 million adults of 15 years and above are illiterate. Among women the problem is worse still: 65% of all female adults are illiterate. As the population rockets, the problem gets worse."

Gee... how come you never mention this even when you give your commentary on how bad India's education system is?!

This is a CLASSIC example of your spin doctoring--highlight all the negatives of India & ignore or dismiss what is negative about Pakistan.


Here is the final summation of his thoughts:




"Sixty years after its birth, India faces a number of serious problems - not least the growing gap between rich and poor, the criminalization of politics, and the flourishing Maoist and Naxalite groups that have recently proliferated in the east of the country. But Pakistan's problems are on a different scale; indeed, the country finds itself at a crossroads. As Jugnu Mohsin, the publisher of the Lahore-based Friday Times, put it recently, "After a period of relative quiet, for the first time in a decade, we are back to the old question: it is not just whether Pakistan, but will Pakistan survive?" On the country's 60th birthday, the answer is by no means clear."

Re: # 92
Sanatani ji...
It is not only east of Kanpur, some part in South and West of Kanpur is also very poor...The entire tribal belt of MP, Chattisgarh, Bidarbha, Rajasthan, part of Gujrat and Northern Maharashtra....the list is very long...Otherwise, how come India makes that much population? The state of agriculture is very bad in these states...

Re: # 92
Sanatani ji...
It is not only east of Kanpur, some part in South and West of Kanpur is also very poor...The entire tribal belt of MP, Chattisgarh, Bidarbha, Rajasthan, part of Gujrat and Northern Maharashtra....the list is very long...Otherwise, how come India makes that much population? The state of agriculture is very bad in these states...

Sanatani bhai,

What RH babu says about India is basically correct. What is disputed is his contention that Pak is much better off. It may have been true in the past, but may not be true any more, based on evidence suggests is not true.

i hope when taliban take over pak they nuke all of India East of Kanpur

Aisa mat kahiye. Where will the unskilled labour that will be needed West of Kanpur come from?

Regards

Vaise Riaz Haq is obsesses with India but what he writes is right India's indicators are majorly effed when compared to pak because of East of Kanpur. Basically if you were to draw a meridien that would pass through Kanpur and then you removed all that area from India then our inicators would be better than China by a good margin (of course China also has some areas like ours comprising a quarter of its population but I am talking of China as a whole).

This begs 1 question that even in WB even if ther was no rigging and no party machine the commies would still get a small majority and in Orissa biju behen ka bhai has got a small landslide despite killing protestors like mice and getting policemen killed like lice then what is this great maturity of the Indian voter.

I hate to say this and not the least because riaz haq is a muhajir scumzada but i find more truth from him about India than those syrupy diabetes causing roshankhayali tv anchors who are dime a dozen in our country.

i hope when taliban take over pak they nuke Delhi and Gurgaon and all of India East of Kanpur

Sanatani

Re: # 86
nkg
Food prices have gone up since 2008 and the wages have also increased in Karachi. A woman working as a maid in couple of houses could make about Rs.5000. Still they must have more than one working person in every family to subsist.
Rural development could be seen in some areas of Punjab. The rest of rural towns and villages have not seen much development since the British left. Rural areas of Sindh have suffered badly because of water shortage and change in water course. Water systems built after 1947 have deserted some fertile areas of Sindh and Punjab. The newly irrigated lands have been given to army personnel and the rural residents were forced to migrate to the cities.

Riaz Haq,
In India, moslems constitutes large % of urban poors, who are forced to live under pathetic sanitation facility...It will be nice for you to use your Paki/Madressa/Islamic alumnus WWW network, to raise funds for urban poor moslems of India...2/3 bn US$ is enough for the time being...I am sure kind hearted arabs will invest money in such area....

Riaz mian seems very interested in India's sanitation problems. Is he looking for a job here? If yes, we would be more than glad to offer him one. After all, what can a man want more than a career he loves?

shankar...
As per my knowledge, Indian administration never tried to make Pakistan as model or tried to make Pakistan as benchmark...It was China, which we were looking for and after the fall of NDA Govt., we are now fighting with Pakistan...I realy admire that guy called Arun Shourie...Pakistan, with whatever progress it makes, will never be threat to India, but China was/is/will be once they get freed from Japan side...

contd...
Though the official figure shows, India's inflation is negative, it is due to fall of prices of cars, luxary apartments etc...The rice,dal and regular food item is very costly...The rice, which used to be around 16-17 INR/Kilo in Bangalore (4/5 years back), is now 34INR.. Almost doubled....
In a gist, where the average rainfall is good, rural areas are the best place to live in India (coastal Andhra, Orissa, Tamilnadu, West Bengal)...cost of food items are quite decent, with rising price of agricultural products; farmers are having enough money....

Re: # 80
malik...
You should not empower people beyond certain level; their expectation grows gradualy, and you will succumb at some point...That may be the reason political parties loose election here, those who perform moderate...

One nice example will be, the despots in Africa and South America...They never loose power due to public discontent...

In context of West Bengal, the basic problem is huge population density. The current Govt. have very minimum scope to improve infrastructure...CPI(M) grabbed the entire administration and now, people see Govt. and party as synonimous...There are so many reasons...

What I have observed in last 20/25 years is..
a. they improved rural infrastructure
b. increased the salary of school teachers and created a class of teachers
c. large amount of money is spent through local body and their autonomy is one of the best in India...The collector/District Magistrate reports to elected president of district body...such is the level of de-centralisatoion of power....
Where they failed...
a. Primary education and primary health should be brought under local body. But there is severe scarcity of doctors, specialy due to absenteesm...Even in rural areas private health sector is growing due to corruption in local level and local body can check this corruption....This proposal is there for quite some time; but the doctor's association and teacher's association, both affiliated to CPI(M) and they are opposing tooth and nail...

b. the farmers, they empowered; their children got decent education and they need job. They are not satisfied with the working in field. Youth have deserted CPI(M)....

c. rural electrification is still a problem. In my village at least 20% to 30% people, still are devoid of proper power connection.

Before this election, the way BJP and CPI(M) tried to destabilize the Govt.,people have not taken it lightly...
BJP was simply funny and at the last phase of election, when people felt that, BJP is not in good shape, urban voters shifted base to Congress to get a stable Govt.

CPI(M) tried to garner muslim vote (in WB, muslim vote is as high as 30% and supported CPI(M) in last election), they tried to link Indo-US Nuke deal with Islam, but somehow, poor people failed to understand it...

Even during the NDA Govt., they initiated a program called rural conectivity program...That has caused almost miracle in economics...One existing road in our area was widened from single lane to double len and then they have laid another road, which is connected with bricked roads...Now, the farmers are not selling product directly to us...They prefer to sell it to big businessman etc...penetration of cell phone had made delivery system very efficient...

I am seeing good infrastructure in some part of Karnataka as well...

The main area of concern is urban poverty and Mumbai will not be much different from Karachi...
In Bangalore, with current price index, it is almost impossible to live with 5000INR/PM, with bare neccessities, though that crosses the mark of BPL (more than $1 a day)stuff...

Re: # 84
Shanker,
While I agree that neither Pak nor India are doing well in taking care of their people, please don't get carried away with one piece of data. There is overwhelming evidence of India being worse than Pakistan, even BD when it comes to basic issues of hunger and sanitation.

According to Indian Planning Commission member Syeda Hameed, India is worse than Bangladesh and Pakistan when it comes to nourishment and is showing little improvement in the area despite big money being spent on it.

According to UNICEF, India is making progress in providing sanitation but it lags considerably behind most of the other countries in South Asia including Pakistan, Bangladesh and even war-torn Afghanistan.

And this is what William Dalrymple said after visiting both India and Pakistan in 2007:

"On the ground, of course, the reality is different and first-time visitors to Pakistan are almost always surprised by the country's visible prosperity. There is far less poverty on show in Pakistan than in India, fewer beggars, and much less desperation. In many ways the infrastructure of Pakistan is much more advanced: there are better roads and airports, and more reliable electricity. Middle-class Pakistani houses are often bigger and better appointed than their equivalents in India."
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Riaz,

"The bottom line is that both India and Pakistan have a lot of work to do to improve the miserable situation of their average citizen"

That's better. When you are challenged on your stats, you get less jingoistic. So don't keep posting that same data over & over again to convince yourself that Pakistanis is so much better fed than Indians.

Besides, if you see the table

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Hunger_Index

In 1990 Pakistn's rate was 25.3 & in 2008 was 21.7

In 1990 India's rate was 32.5 & in 2008 was 23.7

So, one could argue that India's rates are falling faster than Pakistan's.

Re: # 82
MAJ,
It is not unusual to see conflicting data from different researchers, particularly when the difference is not huge, as is the case between India and Pakistan. Both suffer from the same ailments of poverty, malnutrition and backwardness shared by South Asia region as a whole.

But when you are faced with such data discrepancies in business and science, you normally go with the preponderance of evidence from the majority specialist researchers and combine it with anecdotal observations by independent observers.

In this instance, the preponderance of evidence from specialists such as IFPRI and WFP, and observations by Dalrymple, Sen and others should give the edge to Pakistan over India.

The bottom line is that both India and Pakistan have a lot of work to do to improve the miserable situation of their average citizen.

Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Riaz Haq sahib,

FAO's report places India in a somewhat better light than Pak, so does UNDP's HDI which places India a few notches above Pakistan. IFPRI or whatever else that organisation is places Pak better than India.

Naturally, you wud think that IFPRI is a more reliable source than FAO or UNDP. I don't blame you for that.

Regards

Re: # 75
MAJ,
Thanks for sharing the link.

Here's what I think:

There are enough other reports, including IFPRI's 2008 World Hunger Report and UNDP's PHI paper, that contradict the findings of this one report by FAO.

The data in this reports is clearly at odds with the 2008 World Hunger Index data published by IFPRI toward the end of last year that ranks Pakistan at 61 versus India at 66 and Bangladesh at 70.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/7670229.stm
http://www.ifpri.org/PUBS/c p/ghi08.asp

This FAO report also conflicts with UN WFP paper describing PHI (Poverty-Hunger) index that measures progress toward UN MDGs and ranks Pakistan at 45, well ahead of India at 62.

http://motherchildnutrition.org/resources/pdf/mcn-how-are-we-doing.pdf



In addition, the FAO data defies personal, anecdotal evidence reported by many foreigners (including Dalrymple) and India's own development economist Amartya Sen, who says India has fared worse than any other country in the world at preventing recurring hunger.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/aug/14/pakistan.india1
http://w ww.rediff.com/money/2007/apr/26amartya.htm


Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 78
nkg
Things look better in West Bengal, you said. Why did CPIM lose support in the elections?

Re: # 51
malik rashid...
almost 9/10 members of my family is related to education, with one member in one of the topmost post in Primary Education...
The number of schools have not increased too much...The students increased many times and though in % term will be very less, volume wise it is very high...Student/teacher ratio has gone for toss and then, if you force students to come to school on the basis that they will get good food, education remains in backburner...In my native state, primary teachers are now assuming role of chef and dietician than teacher...and it almost destroyed the focus on education in rural areas...Dr. MM Joshi had done great blunder...
The scenario in Higher education is also not very good...It is not improving, the way it should be...IITs were great graduate schools, but never excellent research organisations....Neither, they are looking to be like MIT in near future...Quality of secondary education looks quite decent and I think, that is the reason Bush to Obama praises India along with China etc...that Indian students of 7th/8th standard are smarter than those of USA....

shankar...
Riaz Haq is right...The central Indian states are like sub saharan countries and the number of people are not less..If Mumbai is one of the wealthiest cities, just 200 KM east and north from Mumbai, you will find the poorest region on earth...I used to stay in Matunga Rly Qrtrs for couple of months...The road contractors hire tribals for 100/200 INR /month for road works...and opposite to my quarter, there was Poddar College and another College...Students enjoy cosines of their Girl friends on Opel/Fiat cars...I have seen such stark scenario in Mumbai/Maharashtra...If you leave out tribal belt ( Orrissa,MP,Chhattisgarh...) and cow belt, Indian statistics will look far better...
But the progress I have witnessed in West Bengal is immense...There is no rural beggar or even we are not finding domestic help in my native place in Sunderbans!!!!Agricultural productivity increased a lot...

Thanks MAJ

We need an Indian spin googler to burst Riaz's bubble.

#75 by MAJ

Majumdar bhai, didn't you know the only data Riaz c*****a considers genuine (and from "reputable" sources) is the data that shows Pakistan better off than India?

Riaz Haq sahib,

I have some data which might interest you.

ftp://ftp.fao.org/docrep/fao/011/i0291e/i0291e00.pdf

Pg 48
In India, the number of undernourished people increased from 207 mn to 231 mn (growth of 12% in absolute numbers) in terms of prevalence % a decrease from 24% to 21%. In Pakistan, the number of undernourished people increased from 26 mn to 35 mn (growth of 35% in absolute numbers) in terms of % an actual increase from 22% to 23%

Pg 51

Avg calorie consumption- 2360 for India, 2340 for Pak

Regards

Re: # 70
All of the data I share is from reputable national and international organizations that do apples-to-apples comparisons based on populations. I do not manufacture these numbers to make any country look better or worse than than the other.

Please challenge any specific data or sources you have a problem with rather than make a sweeping and general statement based on your own misconception.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Are the trends getting better or worse? That would tell the story. Large scale demographic changes take time.

Anil writes "Riaz, your obsession is silly. "

Anil sahib refrain from writing silly posts when you have nothing better to say. THE IITs and other madrassas of capitalism are not producing educated folk they are producing peons that compare with the other peon producing school you talk about HBS- after all O'reilly attended Harvard and look how he turned out, that miserable sorry excuse for a human being.

Re: # 69
You can not look at the issue of infant mortality in isolation from the general issues of poverty and illiteracy faced by women in particular. There is no one silver bullet. The solution depends on nutrition, sanitation, women's education/empowerment, prenatal healthcare etc.

Although volunteerism and public service are not as highly valued in Pakistan as in many other places, many Pakistanis care enough for these issues to contribute money, to volunteer time and organize efforts in urban slums and rural communities in Pakistan. There are many, many examples such as HDF, OPP, Hidaya, Agha Khan Foundation, Kashf foundation that are actively working to provide these basic things. There are also social entrepreneurs like Saafwater who are working in the poor neighborhoods to get clean water which is very important in dealing with the issues of infant mortality and health.

These and similar organizations need to be supported to scale up to address the size of the problems. Such organizations can also play the strong advocacy role to push the politicians to spend more on human development and less on military and non-developmental projects.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

#66 Posted by RiazHaq on

I haven't seen how many different statistics you have give so far, but just so that you do not derive much false pleasure out of those statistics, remember that on per capita basis if you include Pakistan, it will be equally bad (ignoring a slight up/down in performance of any of the two countries in a particular year).

Somebody, talked about malnutrition, and was happy that pakistan has more over nourished people than India, again wrong. Over all the ratio of malnourished people in India and Pakistan is almost same, for Pakistan it is around 35 million in 172 million and for India it is around 217 million in 1170 million, if you calculate Indias ratio seems a bit better (should have had 235 million to match pakistan) but that is insignificant.

So overall where India is performing bad, Pakistan never performs any better (except in Cricket/Hockey, but again not in overall sports). But there are areas where India is much better compared to Pakistan


So whenver you get statistics given on chowk here, do check proportions before getting mislead.

Re: # 66
Please tell me what the citizens could do about infant mortality? There must be action on the political level and the sense of shared responsibility could grow as the individuals find any relief from the intensity of misery and suffering. The middle-class and the upper class in Pakistan desensitize themseves from the misfortune of the poor. This acquired skill needs to be unlearnt and a connection with other humans must be made.

Re: # 65
Who are you? And why are you so personally attacking me?
Why don't you contribute your own thoughts to influence discussion here rather than call for others to stop, or even demand that people you disagree with be banned? What kind of an educated person are you who is either unable or afraid to debate on merit?
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 31
Madni saheb
"looting national treasury and blackmailing is concentrated politics which is economics"
Do you think the rot is reversible?
Thank You.

Re: # 64

Until I see a real benevolent, caring and strong government leadership in Pakistan, I will not look to Pakistani government to solve these serious problems of human deprivation. I think it is time for each Pakistani to start lighting candles instead of continuing to curse darkness. If enough of us do it, we make a real difference to alleviate the ongoing suffering of our poor brothers and sisters.

Let me quote a Pakistani young man from Lahore who has organized voluntary trash collection effort via a Facebook group called "Zimmedar Shehri". “Everybody keeps blaming the government, but no one actually does anything,� said Shoaib Ahmed, 21, one of the organizers. “So we thought, why don’t we?�

What can we do? There are many many things individuals like you and I do to support human development in Pakistan. I have written about it extensively on my blog. Here are a couple of links:

http://www.riazhaq.com/2009/05/hdf-silicon-valley-fundraiser-for.html




http://www.riazhaq.com/2009/05/young-pakistanis-inspire-with-public.html
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Can someone please ban this Riaz ul Haq character from Chowk?

Re: # 61
Riaz
Some information you posted. It is horrible but insensitivity has numbed minds. I do not hear any political party in Pakistan raising these issues. Media is consumed by hot stories and international observers provide us a comparison table to see and grieve the infant mortality of 79 per 1000. Are there any on-going projects? How would this budget allocation effect them?

Re: # 59

Riaz:

"...Are the harsh judgments of Pakistan's higher education quality justified? Especially, when compared with other mainstream institutions in the region? You be the judge..."

Education is a fundamental value / right of citizens in a country. Your comparison is foolish. Each must be valued and compared against previous performance.

IITs and IIMs are listed in Global best, not because they want to be compared, but they constantly provided better environment and rigid meritocracy to bring in the best and brightest. It is the latter more than the former that is the reason of their position.

Does Pakistan have its talent, yes they do?
Why would you compare to anyone or any thing other than their own performance?

Good education also be provided through Lal Masjids too, if it can attract the best and brightests with even a certain group.

Riaz, your obsession is silly.

This article is about Pakistan but some of us have successfully diverted this debate again into "Who sucks more: India or Pakistan"

Poverty in Pakistan is absolutely heart wrenching. I am a frequent visitor to both of these South Asian countries and I can tell you with mathematical certitude that poverty in India is substantially more visible.

Two points I would like to make here: disparity between rich and poor is much grander in India and Muslims in India are disproportionately more miserable than Hindus.

Here's some 2008 data from Indian govt on health indicators in India:

While India's maternal mortality rate per 1,00,000 live births remains a high 450, it is 45 in China, 58 in Sri Lanka and 320 in Pakistan.

Similarly, infant mortality rate (IMR) in India is 56 per 1,000 live births against 12 in Sri Lanka and 23 in China.

Even Bangladesh fares better than India in infant mortality with 54 children dying per 1,000 live births. India shares its IMR with the landlocked country of Nepal and fares better than Pakistan (79).

The survey has revealed that 74 Indian children per 1,000 die before attending their fifth birthday as against 14 in Sri Lanka, 27 in China and 73 in Bangladesh.

Giving a comparative study of life expectancy in South-Asian countries, the survey underlines that the average life expectancy in India is 62.9 years.

It is 72 years in China, 63.6 in Pakistan and 70.8 years in Sri Lanka.

Only Nepal (61.3 years) and Bangladesh (62 years) are behind India.

There has been some improvement in the quality of healthcare but wide inter-state, male-female, and rural-urban disparities in outcomes and impacts continue.

Source: http://specials.indiatoday.com/budget/2008/health.shtml
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

TehsinA:

While I am not in favour of governments coming in the way of economic progress, I do make an exception in the case of education and health. Since you mentioned level playing field, the only way the playing field can be made somewhat level is if the state takes the responsibility of providing quality education to all its citizens regardless of their social or economic standing. Indeed, I am not aware of any developed society where the state does not play a dominant role in providing education.

Re: # 56
While I agree that Pakistan's educational standards are not particularly good, I also think the quality of India's education is highly over-rated, especially among the harshest critics of Pakistan's education system.

A few Indian schools in top tier, such as the elite Indian Institutes of Technology (IITs), can be reasonably compared to world-class schools, but the American investors and businesses have finally learned the hard way that there is huge gap between the few tier one schools and the tier two and three in India. The quality of education most Indians receive at tier 2 and 3 schools is far below any acceptable quality

Looking at the top 500 universities in the world, one can see a few universities from India and a few more from nations such as Malaysia, Indonesia, Turkey, Iran and Pakistan. Many new world-class universities are now being built in several nations in Asia and the Middle East, and they are attracting top talent from around the world.

A survey of human resource professionals at multinational corporations in India revealed that only one quarter of engineering graduates with a suitable degree could be employed irrespective of demand (Farrell et al., 2005). Another survey of employers shows that only a handful of the 1400 engineering schools in India are recognized as providing world-class education with graduates worthy of consideration for employment (Globalization of Engineering Services, 2006). These results suggest that engineering degrees from most Indian colleges do not provide signaling value in the engineering labor market. Hence, low quality (in the labor market sense) engineering schooling has come to predominate in the education market. The current situation, with an abundance of low quality engineering schooling, is considered objectionable by many in the Indian polity and is also projected to stifle growth of the Indian economy (Globalization of Engineering Services,
2006).

In terms of the quality of secondary and tertiary education, India also ranks low among the emerging economies, according to a study published in Silicon India. The drought of education in India has reached the extreme as it ranks sixth among the seven emerging economies of the world, in terms of education quality. The country has scored only 3.3 points in the study, in terms of primary, secondary, tertiary and demographic parameters, while Russia topped the chart with 7.3 points.

According to the Assocham study, India was in the last position in terms of quality of secondary education while Russia and Brazil had highest scores. The quality of tertiary education in India was lowest among the other emerging nations. The points it scored on the scale of 2, was 0.1. Even though the demographics of India are considered its strength, the country has scored the minimum in this too and was ranked at last place. Moreover, in terms of students enrollment for primary education, India is highly incompetitive with the gross enrollment ratio standing at 98.1.

"Serious attention needs to be paid towards the education system. India may stand to loose its competitive advantages against the other countries in long term if corrective measures are not taken to strengthen the Indian education system qualitatively," said Sajjan Jindal, ASSOCHAM President while releasing the ASSOCHAM Eco Pulse (AEP) Study 'Comparative Study of Emerging Economies on Quality of Education'. It was carried out on the basis of 20 parameters relating to primary, secondary, tertiary education and higher education and demography and data provided by UNESCO, IMF, WEF, Financial Times was used for the purpose.

Among the rest five countries, China has secured second place with scoring 6.7 points, while Brazil has positioned itself at third place with 5.56 score points as the quality of education in Brazil remains stable across all levels of primary, secondary and higher education. Mexico has been ranked at fourth place on the strength of its higher education. South Africa, a relatively new entrant to the club of developing economies, has managed to be on fifth place on the strength of its tertiary education and demographic qualities though it lags far behind in primary education. However, Indonesia stands at the last position with an overall score of 2.68 points. The gross enrollment ratio is highest in Brazil (148.5), followed by China (116.2) and Russia (113.8). Even Indonesia (110.9) and South Africa (105.1) enjoy better enrollment ratio than India.

However, only in terms of teacher-student ratio the country outsmarts all as in India for every forty students, there is one teacher.

Are the harsh judgments of Pakistan's higher education quality justified? Especially, when compared with other mainstream institutions in the region? You be the judge.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 56
You highlight a very important point; The co-existence of a federation alongwith its constituting units. Pakistan army, after dealing with the demands of Bengalis, embarked on curbing the Baloch, the sindhis and Pathans.
The establishment did not make effort at making peace with its units and that haunts Pakistan but the government still shows ignorance by labelling provincial demands as foreign instigated insurgency.

Re: # 53
Dost Mittar
The policies started by the British have not been replaced to reflect the real needs of society. In Pakistan, they veered off on a different course of state-propaganda in text-books by trying to re-write history in a politically advantageous manner. Higher education in Pakistan is still sub-standard and employers pay higher wages to foreign qualified individuals. State investment in education is reflected by the measly 0.8% of the budget allocated for the whole thing.

People need to take control of their own lives and solve their own problems otherwise nothing will happen. Situation in India started to change not because of government action it was because when government got out of the way of people to act in their own enlightened self interest. The only thing the government is needed for is to ensure a level playing field and that is all. The minute people start solving their own problems watch how the politicians and bureaucrats line up to ‘help out’ so that they can claim credit for all the good that is done.

American system has relied on a deep and abiding distrust of the power of the federal government where every action however benign in appearance is looked at with suspicion as an attempt to usurp our rights and restrict our liberties.

Re: # 54
Language is another problem concerning education. Provision of basic education in first language is not available. Sindhi could perhaps be the only language that has a curriculum besides urdu and english. Pashto, Baloch and Punjabis must learn urdu and english. There are no text-books and no education imparted in these languages at any level, as far as I know.

malik:

I had this maid in Delhi during my winter stay there. She told me that she sends her daughter to the "english medium" school and not a government school. In all probability, the so-called english medium private school is much worse than the government school, but such is their reputation that even the maid did not want her child to go there.

malik:

In India, primary schooling is the responsibility of state governments and the situation would vary from state to state. In general, one does not hear great things about primary schooling; in cities, they are so held in contempt that even a lowly clerk would not think of sending his kids to the government school. With the middle class having abandoned these schools, both the teachers and parents are indifferent. Teachers are interested only in their salaries -which they get whether they teach or not- and parents too are unconcerned for the most part. In villages, the situation is worse and frequently schools lack even basic necessities such as black boards. Still, some programs, such as mid-day meals have improved school attendance, especially of girls. Some state governments have special incentives for girl child going to school.

I think that the basic wrong decision was made during Nehru's period which gave more priority to institutions of higher learning than to primary education. I looked at some records during the British period and, even then the proportion of university to primary school enrollment was higher than in western countries. This is why even back in the 1950s, graduate unemployment was regarded as a major problem.

Health care indicators in India look worse than Pakistan because of the basic issues of nutrition and sanitation where India is lagging most of its neighbors.

India is worse than Bangladesh and Pakistan when it comes to nourishment and is showing little improvement in the area despite big money being spent on it, according to Indian Planning Commission member Syeda Hameed.

According to UNICEF, India is making progress in providing sanitation but it lags considerably behind most of the other countries in South Asia including Pakistan, Bangladesh and even war-torn Afghanistan.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 50
Dost Mittar
How is public education in India?
Pakistan presents a sorry picture regarding basic education. Rural areas are the worst hit. There are schools on government records but they actually do not exist. Lack of teachers and facilities and the sorry state of maintenance is obvious at schools that are public funded.

malikrashid:

The situation in India is only slightly better. Although there is a large number of government hospitals, they are not well maintained. Even when they have the latest equipment, it sits there for lack of repair and maintenance. Their hygiene is so poor that even a healthy person is likely to get sick if one has to spend some time there.

Re: # 47
There are a few government run hospitals providing supposedly free treatment. With government assistance at such a low these hospitals usually can not do much. There are 3 hospitals for 17 million residents in Karachi that run over-full, under-staffed and under-supplied.
Education and health-care have never been the priority for any government in 62 years. The helplessness of the poor and sick is a tragic story.

#47

Dost, how can PuffedUP Madrassa Alumnus "Worldwide" and his ilk even consider learning ANYTHING from India?

He "Invented" the 80386 like Al Gore "Invented" the Internet. That makes him Wiley Coyote the "PuffedUP Super Genius"

Malik saab:

Considering that only 0.2% of the budget is allocated to health and less than 1% is allocated to education, it is a miracle that infant mortality rates and illiteracy are as low as they are; indeed this can happen only because, I assume, there are a large number of khairati (charitable) hospitals and madrassahs. I think that the govt. should seriously study the school lunch programs in India to improve literacy rates. The Benazir scheme seems to follow the Indian NREGA program and should be lauded, except that I don't know if it can be afforded without improving revenue collection.

As I keep saying, until Pakistan addresses the issue of low private household savings, it will have to keep depending upon external sources for development, whether they come from expatriate pakistanis or courtesy of friendly -and sometimes not so friendly- governments.

They say thar will be big plant but will need huge water why they need huge amount of water ?
Thanks

#44

Dude, I have more bad news for you. Lookup the following

1. Kishenganga
2. Bhaglihar II
3. Pakal-Dul
4. Sewa-II
5. Uri-II
6. Bursur

This year, India increased power generation by 3,500 MW which was abysmal. However, by next June all the projects that were delayed this year will come on line that is 7,730 MW. In addition, we will get close to 3000 MW Nuclear Power in. We will get there. It will just take a little longer. It ALWAYS takes a little longer in India. We are used to it.

I can speak with authority about Bangalore. Every medium sized factory or workshop has a generator. Almost all the Hospitals, hotels,shops and offices have their own generators. Even most middle class homes have the tiny Kerosene/Petrol driven Honda generators. The power shortage does not affect running of the city, The lights go out for just an instant before the generators kick in. It just costs more because the privately generated electrical costs are passed on to the consumer.

Only those homes without a generator have to make do without electricity. Even that is few and far between. It was far far worse a few years back.

BTW, who cares if India is shining or not? Indians don't care. They also did not buy the BJP line. They kicked them out 5 years ago and did that to them again this year.

Pakis like you who have an incurable inferiority complex do and know very little about India desperately grab at straws continue to harp on it. Please continue to harp on this. :-) I am afraid the joke will be on you...:-) It already is...

Pakistan clearly has serious power shortages right now that are hurting Pakistani people and the economy very badly, for the reasons I have stated such as 30% power theft, low or no ROI for investors etc. And yet, there are several power plants under construction that should add tens of thousands of additional MW starting in about a year.

When completed over the next several years, some of these plants, including Nandipur (425 MW, Thermal), Guddu(800 MW, Thermal) and Neelam-Jhelum(1000 MW, Hydro), Chashma (1200 MW, Nuclear) will add more than 3000 MW of power generating capacity for the energy-hungry country. Pakistan is currently facing a deficit of 4,000 to 5,000 megawatts, resulting in extensive load-shedding (rolling blackouts) of several hours a day.

China has already installed a 325-megawatt nuclear power plant (C1) at Chashma and is currently working on another (C2) of the same capacity that is expected to be online by 2010. The agreements for C3 and C4 have also been signed. The United States has objected to China supplying C3 and C4 on the grounds that any Pak-China nuclear cooperation would require consensus approval by the NSG, of which China is now a member, for any exception to the guidelines. The US is applying double standards since it supported and got approval for such an exception from NSG for its own nuclear deal with India.

Under another agreement, China has agreed to invest about $600 million for setting up an integrated coal mining-cum-power project in Sindh. The project will produce 180 million tons of coal per year, which is sufficient to fuel the proposed 405 MW power plant. Pakistan is currently world's seventh largest coal-producing country, with coal reserves of more than 185 billion tons (second in the world after U.S.A.'s 247 billion tons). Almost all (99 percent) of Pakistan's coal reserves are found in the province of Sindh. Pakistan's largest coal field is Thar coal field which is spread over an area of 9100 square kilometers, and contains 175 billion tons of coal. So far this coal field has not been developed but efforts are underway.

But, just for CoolAl's inflated ego, here's the story from Shining India:

Come summer and India is reeling under power cuts. As mercury is rising, anger is rising among common Indians who are forced to stay without electricity for hours. Angry residents have attacked power utilities in Delhi, Haryana and parts of Uttar Pradesh. In Kanpur, Union Home Minister Sriprakash Jaiswal joined angry protesters demanding electricity for the city that was reeling under 16 hours of power cut. Almost every state in the country is facing grim power situation.

Delhi is facing 30 percent shortage in power. Maharashtra on an average has 8 to 10 hours of load shedding every day. Madhya Pradesh has 26 percent power deficit. In Gujarat, while the requirement is 5,500 Mega Units, availability is 4,780 Mega Units. Andhra Pradesh, Karnataka and Tamil Nadu are facing 2000 Mega Units of energy deficit and Bihar and Jammu and Kashmir have 1,500 and 1000 Mega Units of power shortages respectively.

The real problem for power shortage in the country emanate from poor generation capacity and distribution and transmission problems. While the public sector is unable to generate enough funds for investment in the power sector, lack of return is acting as an impediment to the private players to step in this sector. Despite stringent laws, to add to the woes, power theft is continuing unabated. Power sector is the joint responsibility of the Central and the State governments. With the bulk of the transmission and distribution functions lying with the state utilities the State governments are chiefly to bear the blame for the power crisis.

http://www.indiadaily.org/entry/rising-power-shortage-fuelling-power-rio ts-in-india/
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

XXXXX Hit by 18-Hour Power Outage After Transmission Failure

Guess which city it was. It happened on June 18

A. New Delhi
B. Mumbai
C. Kolkata
D. Chennai
E. Bangalore
F. Hyderabad
G. None of the above.
H. All of them -- PuffedUp Madrassa Alumnus Worldwide's answer

Check this link for the real answer...

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601091&sid=a.ZeQq7hS3k 4

Anil that has always been the case. It is basically a confluence of technology combined with bureaucratic legacy that is to blame. Both things are surmountable and will be done. India today is very different from India of even 5 yrs ago....the scale is so enormous that it requires a much longer lead time for insfrastructural changes. Vaisey the capital taps are now open again....yippee!

The issue is bureaucracy and technology....that is why you have transmission loss. Investment is not the issue. Demand pull is quite strong. Go and google up the number of plants being set up. Simple things like new meters that can track usage and automatically relay imputs to power stations, putting down a whole new smartgrid with public-private financing is happening...as you write your trite unhinged remarks.

India is ona scale a whole different country than a little place like pakistan. Which, by the looks of it is going in a reverse direction with karachi in the dark for much of the day.

I cannot say since then, but until late 90s, in India power generation was privatized, but not the distribution. In the export zone, we had surplus power generation in our plant, the neighbors had to suffer from erratic power supply. We could not distribute the power to next door neighbors.

Privatization of state level enterprises is full of fraught.

Re: # 32 Prof.R.Haq you are very polite as I have no knowledge of big companies.
You have written
"Under such circumstances, who in their right mind would want to build power plants, unless they get high enough rates to compensate for heavy power pilferage."
We will have losses as they are not technical losses but designed losses.
THis is egg and hen problem. Govt will never tax agriculture so they are subsidizing feudals for equality miserable urban theft of power can be considred for subsidizing.
Black hole army is absorbing 70% national health (some say) they can be kind to direct some money for urban survival for cow they milk, which produces wealth.
One wonder if we subsidise and helps rich Arab companies why not be little kind with theft by urbans.
I have no knowledge if govt does not invest, private does not invest then we are destined for long dark hot nights and darkness at noon.
I have subsidised chor my students gone to usa who do not pay me all is chor bazzar.

Re: # 36 About this agree. Pakistan very young.Miitary rulers A to Z and corropt bb to pm.. ( Ayub , zia etc) come and go but Pakistani army takes ahead pakistani people and pakistani nation in its pocket.

Re: # 33 Intrpolation is extremely accurate extrapolation is only reasonable speculation at best.

Re: # 33
I think you are being an alarmist. Forecasts of Pakistan's extinction have been coming fast and furious for more than half century..the latest one was from David Kilcullen that gave Pakistan six months earlier this year.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 34
So why is there a serious power shortage in India? If it is not more than 50% power theft in Delhi( which has brought it the distinction of being "power theft capital of the world"), then what is it? Is it tariffs?

Here's an analysis I read recently:

The Indian government recognizes that the long-term sunk cost, long project planning and construction timeframe, and high-risk portfolio make it difficult for private investors to raise funds whose maturity matches project completion dates. Since 1991 it has allowed 100% foreign direct investment (FDI) in the power sector (with the exception of nuclear power) under the automatic route (that is, without hindrance from the financial regulatory agency, the Reserve Bank of India) and without limitations on project cost and amount of FDI.

Despite these and other incentives and lucrative policy measures, FDI in the sector for 2006 totaled $157 million—accounting for less than 1% of the nation’s total FDI. Experts cite several reasons for this, apart from the numerous challenges that afflict the sector, including short and erratic supply of fuel and equipment, high tariff rates, poor plant load factor, power theft, and other transmission and distribution losses. But the primary problem is the poor commercial performance and near-bankruptcy of state electricity boards (SEBs)—a result of pervasive power politics. The prevalence of corruption, lack of corporate governance practices, and red tape (owing to the multi-regulatory system that involves both state and federal levels of government) are also major concerns.

http://powermag.com/business/1843.html
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Transmission loss doesn't prevent investment investments....lack of political stability and poor economic climate prevent investment. Demand pull is there.

#26 Posted by RiazHaq

“A culture can only maintain itself for more than 25 years if it has a fertility rate 2.11 or higher. Once the fertility falls below 1.9, it can not be reversed …..Fertility rates of Europeans (1.38) and Chinese (1.77), on the other hand, are alarmingly low, with possible extinction of their cultures in a few centuries.�

Answer:

#28 Posted by Pardesi

“Extrapolation based on current trends is just one possible outcome. Future is always very very uncertain.�


We may be extinct within 25 years unless we do something about it.

Re: # 31
Madani Sahib, With all due respect to you, sir, I don't think you understand the electricity business well. The electrical power business, like any other business, has to make a profit to attract investors. In Pakistan, the transmission losses exceed 30%, which is at least 10-15 times the average in most other nations, except perhaps in India where they are even higher....some estimates put the power theft in India at 40-50%.

The term "transmission loss" is in fact a euphemism for power theft which is widespread in both rural and urban areas. So people want to have reliable electricity but they do not want to pay for it. In addition to the usual "kunda" thieves, many of the culprits are powerful political leaders and government ministers and their cronies who refuse to pay their bills.

Under such circumstances, who in their right mind would want to build power plants, unless they get high enough rates to compensate for heavy power pilferage.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Rashid Sashib we are destined for problems. When you handover a power company to foreign friendly hands it was crime. It was extremely undersold and concessions given and promises given by friendly Arabian companies were never carried out.A rabian co. never capatalised or put money in infrastructe as promised.
THe idea of privation has scheme of former PM , City bank man. In usa city bank is giving lessons about privatization.
In our country Privatization means Privatization of profits and looting and depreciating and starving going company and nationalizing losses. They are doing as planned , power company is aleady looted and govt of pakistan has sunk huge amounts before handing over. The company is already carved. Now dead cow will dumped in Public lap to recapitalize. Friendly investors milked cow so much she is dead. Now govt will take over recapatalise to be again privatised our style.
There is politics involved , I mean to say looting national treasury and blackmailing is concentrated politics which is economics.

Yes CA, secularism, democracy, nice tradition of smooth transfer of power, education opportunities for every one (and Riaz is right, many institutions' standard needs to be improved), indian cultural/hindu tolerance and patience, all these are great building blocks.

I just hope that we make little more progress on law and order thingy for every one and we are all set :)

Yah pardesi.....I think India will be alright. The fundamentals of the economy are waiting for the sociology to catch up. The sheer volume of people will take a couple of generations but I think that the future is quite bright for Indian folks.

Extrapolation based on current trends is just one possible outcome. Future is always very very uncertain.

If nations with large populations are not educated, don't have many opportunities and poor have no perceived stake in the government, they can easily become instrument of instability and therefore a huge liability.

Larhe populations can be an asset if they are predominantly young and the policies for making them productive assets is in place, as Riaz points out. The population dividend towards growth for a country like India is still to come. China is in the midst of it. One of the interesting things to watch is how the one-child rule in china will affect the socioeconomics. Basically, one child will be responsible for producing enough to take care of two parents and two grandparents (as life spans increase)....then there is a curious social element where a child will grow up having no uncles, neices, nephews...a strange nuclear family.

The key I suppose is a balance....

Interestingly enough, Jared Diamond wrote and essay called "32" a year back or so...where he talked about consumption levels in the US vis-a-cis Chindia....I paraphrase "if CHINDIA was to consume resources and put out pollutants at the same rate as the US....it would be like there are 72 billion people on this earth....most anthropolists can agree to 12 or even 15 billion people....but no one crazy enough to suggest that 72 billion is possible"

Re: # 25
A culture can only maintain itself for more than 25 years if it has a fertility rate 2.11 or higher. Once the fertility falls below 1.9, it can not be reversed. Pakistan's current fertility of 3.73 (down from 4 in 2003)and India's 2.76 (down from 3 in 2003) are well above the 2.11 rate. But fertility rates of both are coming down steadily with economic development.

Fertility rates of Europeans (1.38) and Chinese (1.77), on the other hand, are alarmingly low, with possible extinction of their cultures in a few centuries.

So birth control is a good thing, but only up to a point.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 24
The suggestion of population expansion without offering any child and family support and with disregard to the financial and emotional well-being of individuals could be an ill-concieved propaganda for business profits.

Re: # 23
I think larger population can be a strength for any nation if it can be taken care of and developed with proper nutrition, education and healthcare. The US became a natural leader of the West based on the strength of its large, healthy and well-educated population. Germany is a leader in Europe because of its large human resources as well.

And the reason many western companies are interested in India and China is because of the potential for their large populations.

Pakistan's main failure lies in its inability to take good care of its human resources.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 21
You could say that a muslim section that advocates regression does project population expansion as political strength but this view can hardly find any support by individuals who are destined to toil in order to provide for their family.

Re: # 13
All my real personal role models died in obscurity. I do not desire popularity but disregards for the sentiments of others could breed tension. Promotion of truth demands that reason must follow acceptance and accomodation of the views of others by moulding your own into discarding all falsehood from your expression.
Respect. Peace.

#18

It is a well known strategy adopted by muslim leaders to increase the population of muslims. No thought is given to family planning or education of the new children. The Palestinians have adopted this strategy as have the muslims in India and other places where they are in minority.

I suspect that there is a possibility that the islamists have adopted this strategy to increase their populations vis-a-vis "secular", educated muslims too.

Is this what you are refering to?

Re: # 14

Riaz:

Good to know that you are always cool. I always felt that you must be. Life is too short, and journey can be more enjoyable.

Rashid Malik,

Not to be presumptuous, but please take PuffedUp's so called "Knowledge" that he freely dumps on unsuspecting folks with a huge fist of salt.

You may have a very serious, reasoned discourse with a lot wider participation if you can keep the snake-oil salesmen out of your board. If the PuffedUp Madrassa Alumnus Worldwide is offering to leave your board, I urge you to consider his offer and seriously ask him to leave. Try it please, you have nothing to lose and everything to gain.

You have already heard the sum total of his so called "knowledge" ad nauseum. He spouts it in his every single interact. It has sickened even Khyber & (~!@#$%^)32

I am willing to bet he won't get lost :-)

Re: # 17
That was perhaps an unwarranted assumption because I cannot back it up with concrete evidence but the abandonment of population planning is a fact.

Re: # 16

MalikRashid Said - "Since Zia came to power in 1977 the outlook changed and population explosion perhaps suited the strategy of Islamabad"

Which strategy?

Re: # 12
There was some noticeable effort by the government in the early 70s. There were ads on TV, bill-boards and news papers. Free contraception was distributed. Since Zia came to power in 1977 the outlook changed and population explosion perhaps suited the strategy of Islamabad. I have not seen much done since then.

Riaz, I really appreciate your participation and learn from your articles and posts. I envy your strength of persuasion. We have differences of opinion on the role of Pakistan army/ISI but unlike others you do not support the obscurantist outlook projected from the top in Islamabad. I did not mean to offend you but difference in our opinion should not end a healthy discourse.
Thanks.

Re: # 4
Anil,
Thank, but I am always cool!

I think you need to redo your math.

I am sure you have heard of benchmarking in your work as a consultant. The lines that mention India also mention Pakistan and other nations for comparison purposes.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 10
malikrashid, When I read your articles and contribute my thoughts by dissecting, critiquing and putting them data/facts regional perspective, my assumption is that you want it to constructive.

So I am more than a little annoyed when you paint it as "ummah superiority" and agree with a bigot like CoolAl. I know you want to be popular with some of your Indian readers like CoolAl and Bubba, but please don't be blind to the facts/data and criticism I bring to Chowk that they dislike, even abhor because it hurts their inflated image of themselves.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 11

Malik Rashid ji,

Out of curiosity, what are the measures Pakistan has adopted for population control. How do they do the PR?

The reason I ask is - In India in 1980's when I was growing up the Nirodh advertisement (Nirodh was a govt. sponsored free condom) used to be on play every day at 9 pm on national television. And at that time, India had only 2 channels - satellite TV was not yet in. I think most importantly what the Nirodh campaign made sure that Condoms is no longer a taboo word. And their slogan was "Hum do Hamare do".

Re: # 9
TehsinA,
You have identified population growth/poverty, pollution, education and energy. Pakistan government did focus on population planning at some point and I am not sure what the results were. China has tackled this in some ways hence they have rectified their situation. I wonder if this could change without a concerted effort from the top. I agree that poverty, population planning are linked but only individual and community response might not be enough.
Pollution is one good point. Pakistan government has replaced a tax on petroleum by calling it carbon tax. It is funny that a government that has almost zero focus on pollution chooses to levy a carbon tax which many industrialised countries are still debating on.
I think you have pointed at the right problems but I am not sure that a non-governmental approach could make much of a difference. Thanks.

Re: # 6
Thanks. Pakistan collected a mere 9% in tax and the government says it will go up to 9.6% for 2009-10, compared to 17% in India. This looks like a huge difference. Almost doubling revenues in Pakistan could take the country towards eeconomic independence and prosperity. If we could get a comparison in education and health-care between the two and measure them against countries like UK or Canada!
Re#3.
Thanks Shankar
How did India achieve these rates in Infant mortality and literacy? Illiteracy in Pakistan is very high and there is hardly any focus on this issue.
Re#8
Delirium, you raise a very important issue. The government is not sure that the aid promised would be delivered on time and Pakistanis feel helpless for their situation which demands international charity and generosity year after year.
#7. Yes, but more than madressah there are those who have similar ummah superiority dreams within higher echelons of power and society at large. That present a greater danger
according to reports published in US newspapers last week.
Anil and Bubba, thanks.

“government ko chahiyay�


I think the one thing that we can definitely eliminate is this phrase from our lexicon once and for all:

The whole media, in fact the whole nation is always looking towards the government to solve what ever problem their may be. This is an entire cop out, when we know for a fact that they cannot be trusted to do anything right to begin with so why do we keep banging our heads against the same wall expecting a different out come. How about something as simple as self reliance, finding household solutions for household problems, local solutions for local problems and before you know it we can actually start making a dent on national issues.

One of the main causes of poverty is the unbridled growth in population. Even the most optimistic growth estimates when adjusted for population growth turn surpluses into deficits and that is one central problem. Moreover this population growth is crumbling the already antiquated infra structure which is hardly suited for such an influx.

This problem does not require a government solution it can and should be handled in the household. Don’t make so many babies, discourage early marriage, change the mores whereby unless the boy can afford an apartment he cant marry. Social scientists who wish to help can ally with the media and spread the word around for better practices. This alone can go a long way to make a dent on the growth of poverty.

Next equally important area could be pollution. No extra resources are needed beyond elbow grease to keep your home clean. Promote habits so that the drains keep free of objects which shouldn’t be there. Separate drinking water from waste water etc. can be tackled within the household. At the community level make sure the same is true, okay we may require some garbage receptacles but if it is supported by the community can result in much better living conditions.

Education is another sector which could be handled without any help. The main problem of illiteracy is that education has not been emphasized enough as a priority within the household and the community. Education can be had under a tree only thing it requires is dedication from the teacher and the student. We have to stop accepting child labor in our households and insist that all children should be in school this mindset needs change.

Energy is another sector that can be handled without government, donors, vaderas, army or industrialists etc. With the hot sun that most of Pakistan experiences cant its energy be harnessed to lets say heat water or energy for cooking and domestic use. I think local solutions can be found with minimal investments.

The important point is that we have to get back to solving our own problems rather then looking at others to solve them for us.

Budget 2009-10.Another bunch of lies and a perfect case of number juggling and status quo.Moreover, by none other than the lady who was part of the 'economic dream team' of previous government. Pot calling the kattle black.

What is most intriguing about the budget is that we are dependent on 'friends of Pakistan' to have mercy upon us and balance that deficit with their much needed aid. The only performing sector of the GDP i.e agriculture has been magnanimously spared any taxation like always. Local borrowing would keep the interest rate high keeping the industry non productive and non efficient that also continues to suffer owing to energy deficit. There is no plan to arrest inflation that continues to hover in alarmingly high double digits zone.

Question: What can you do to the Puffed up Worldwide Madrassa Alumnus that he does not do to himself?

Answer: NOTHING ;-)

Re: # 2
Rashid, You article is specifically about poverty and hunger. Given India's horrible record in this area, I don't think Pakistan can look to India to learn anything from it as far as reducing hunger and poverty.

The one thing where Pakistan can and should follow India's lead is in increasing tax revenue as percent of GDP. India currently collects about 17% of GDP in tax revenue versus Pakistan's 11%. The quickest way to do it is to tax the income of the big feudal lords....which is going to be tough because they rule the country. Without more revenue, it is hard for the government to increase spending on education, healthcare, poverty alleviation, etc.

A serious land reform undertaken by Nehru in India (or even better, the Kerala state land reform) would be another important step for Pakistan toward liberating the rural poor and improve their literacy, particularly female literacy. Again, it's not going to happen as long with we have a feudal democracy where the election of big zamindars to positions of power is guaranteed.

Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Just ignore this worldwide guy, and interact on the topic at hand.

Riaz Mian:

You need to cool down. In an article on Pakistan your #1 post has 11 lines on Pakistan, and 29 lines on India.

What is your message?

Mr Rashid,

{{I will really appreciate if you identify some fields where India has done better and suggest ways they could be implemented in Pakistan.}}

You really think Riaz is interested in that?
The man collects specific data on the web to show how Pakistan is better off than India. Then he posts the same data over & over again...I guess to feel good about himself.

You can find all sorts of data on the internet to spin your views.

I don't have the time or the aptitude to google; but even an ignoramus like me can spin data..

I realize Indo-Pak comparisons are immature--since both countries are in the same gutter... but here are a few examples with my meager power of googling.

Heheh...just to egg mian Riaz's spin doctoring...

Infant mortality rate (latest)

Pakistan 28
India 44

Lower numbers indicate worse performance.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea_inf_mor_rat-health-infant- mortality-rate


Literacy rate:

Pakistan 160
India 147

higher numbers denote worse standings

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_literacy_rate

Human Development index

The Human Development Index (HDI) is a comparative measure of life expectancy, literacy, education and standards of living for countries worldwide. It is a standard means of measuring well-being, especially child welfare. It is used to distinguish whether the country is a developed, a developing or an under-developed country, and also to measure the impact of economic policies on quality of life. The index was developed in 1990 by Pakistani economist Mahbub ul Haq and Indian economist Amartya Sen.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_Inde x

Pakistan 139
India 132

This is the most comprehensive picture. India is overall more developed than Pakistan. CASE CLOSED.

Now just WATCH how Riaz mian will spin this!:)

Mr. Haq
Sir, thanks for the information you have provided in your interact. The IMF had imposed a condition to keep the deficit below 4.6% a few months ago, when Pakistan government approached them for help. I share your view about tax on agriculture sector and I wish land reforms could abolish feudalism immediately.
The comparison between India and Pakistan is interesting but my focus in this article is Pakistan. I will really appreciate if you identify some fields where India has done better and suggest ways they could be implemented in Pakistan.
Waiting eagerly
Malik rashid

malikrashid,
I posted the following comment on your ilog posting of the same name. Now I'm sharing it with others who have not seen it:

Pakistan's budget represents only about 11% of nation's gdp. So, even a 5.4% budget deficit is minuscule in the overall national context.

Pakistan's problem is structural, with so few people paying taxes. For example, the entire farm income earned by the big feudal elite is exempt from taxes. It needs to be taxed like any other income to generate sufficient funds to deliver basic services like education, healthcare, infrastructure, sanitation, poverty alleviation etc.

At the same time, there is a need to incentivize and encourage a robust, well-funded private sector to address the monumental needs of human development in Pakistan.

To put it in perspective, let's look across the border in India, where the Indian governments takes in about 17% of the gdp as revenue. But, in 2009-10 budget, fully two-thirds of it is allocated for non-productive, non-dev uses like military, police, various paramilitary and security forces and debt payment. So people's needs for education, healthcare, poverty alleviation, sanitation etc. get very low priority in the Indian budget.

The latest data suggests that India is much worse off than Pakistan in terms of hunger, poverty and basic sanitation.

An important way to measure progress in Pakistan for the poor is is terms of the probability of Pakistan achieving the UN Millennium Dev Goals (MDGs). Pakistan ranks at 45, well ahead of India at 62 and it is included in the medium performing countries. PHI is a new composite indicator – the Poverty and Hunger Index (PHI) – developed to measure countries’ performance towards achieving MDG1 on halving poverty and hunger by 2015. The PHI combines all five official MDG1 indicators, including a) the proportion of population living on less than US$ 1/day, b) poverty gap ratio, c) share of the poorest quintile in national income or consumption, d) prevalence of underweight in children under five years of age, and d) the proportion of population undernourished.

In the context of India’s unprecedented economic growth (9-10 percent annually) and national food security, over 60 percent of Indian children are wasted, stunted, underweight or a combination of the above. As a result, India ranks number 62 along with Bangladesh at 67 in the PHI (Poverty Hunger Index)ranking out of a total of 81 countries. Both nations are included among the low performing countries in progress towards MDG1 (Millennium Development Goals) with countries such as Nepal (number 58), Ethiopia (number 60), or Zimbabwe (number 74).

The World Hunger Index of 88 countries published by IFPRI last year ranked India at 66 while Pakistan was slightly better at 61 and Bangladesh slightly worse at 70.

According to a recent story in Times of India headlined "India Tops World Hunger Chart", almost 80% of rural households do not have access to toilets within their premises. The figure exceeds 90% in states like Chhattisgarh, Jharkhand, Orissa and MP.

India remains among the worst in all the rankings of nations on basic indicators like poverty, hunger, illiteracy, disease, sanitation etc etc


Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide