Science and Enlightenment: East and West

Re: # 97
tahmed sahib, "Human self-interest" can lead to dangerous territory, such as Machiavelli's overriding value of self-preservation being the greatest moral imperative which essentially gives one license to kill any one who is seen as a threat. Sort of like Bush's strategy of pre-emption that has caused tremendous human suffering and hurt the US image badly.

As to the reasons for crimes against humanity, you are absolutely right that many horrible crimes have been committed in the name God and religion. But justification for such criminal behavior is not limited to religion alone. Similar crimes have also been committed in the name of racial superiority, national pride, to bring democracy to the Middle East, etc, etc. In the end, it is some sort of a God (God of religion, nationalism, democracy, free markets, etc.) that people begin to believe in and use to justify their crimes.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

anil sahib, riaz sahib

thanks for your input. That is perhaps the most often quoted
aphorism by Einstein used by "spiritualists"..but then there are others by him also which could be used to bolster his "doubts"...best we can say is that they are simply idle musings and should be valued more for their sparks than their wattage. Be it Einstein or anyone they are not so great that they should be taken seriously beyond their domain.

The journey is inside rather than outside ones self. The moment it is expressed & exhibited its mystique is gone.

all the Prime Movers are intangibles, ethereal, spiritual, non-material: words, passions, hurts, love/hate, greed/lust
prejudice/preference, prayers/wishes...etc etc

The Physical motion is simply a manifestation of the above..they are not even movers as such.

hUm sey zamaana khuud hai, zamaanay sey hUm naheeN

My 2 cents:

Just to add my two cents about God. For the longest time I used to say truth is my God, nothing but the truth, but then I got straightened out by my Guru. Truth is not God, God is beyond truth and thus beyond our ability to fathom HIM. He said, God is unknowable but you can feel His presence everywhere. The way he explained it is through a metaphor.

There are two universes, the visible and the intelligible. The visible universe can be seen with the faculty of our eyes but eyes are just not enough, there is an essential condition that needs to be met. This condition is presence of light which allows our eyes to see. Similarly the intelligible universe can only be comprehended with the mind. Like for example doing math which is only concepts in the mind, for these God – {his Grace (rehmat)} is an essential condition to know this intelligible universe. He, is the essential condition just like light is that allows us to comprehend the visible universe. In other word to discern truth from falsehood, to differentiate between what is just and what is unjust etc. This ability in us is only possible because of HIS presence. The more we attune ourselves towards truth and justice the more we are propelled towards him and vice versa.

Anil/Riaz saheban: Spirituality is fine. However, it is so lose and open to so many interpretations - and indeed mischief, the worst crimes being committed in the nameo of God - that perhaps it is better to replace it with something more concrete. Namely "human self-interest" (and, per #80 below, this seems to basically call for a civilized society with emphasis on education and the scientific method). This would end the endless mess made in the name of God - religious rituals, priesthoods, "short-cut" morality. And I am sure God will be fine by it.

Re: # 95

http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/a/alberteins161289.html
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 94

Riaz:

Good for you. Like I said we all need a dose of spirituality. Although numerous quotes of Einstein that I am familiar are quite different from what you are attributing to be his quote.

Love to know the reference to this quote, if it is Einstein's.

Re: # 89
I believe in God as a supreme being who has power over the constantly expanding universe and humans are one species among many who inhabit a small speck of dust called earth.

Humans have made progress but we continue strive toward fully understanding and imagining the reality of the vastness of space and even a small fraction of what lies within it.

As we continue to learn the mysteries of the infinite universe, I believe there will always far more to learn than our fairly limited ability to learn it.

That is why I agree with Einstein that science is lame without religion and religion without science is blind.
Humans will continue to strive to reconcile science and faith.

Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 91

Echo sahib:

It was probity and question "Is Man the best creation of God, or Is God the best imagination of Man".

TehsinA #86 One needs to then define "individual self-interest". This could be specified to be "maximizing happiness" and "minimizing distress".

Fitting this into the well-known Maslow's hierarchy of needs, billions of people in the world have already achieved the "minimizing distress" (i.e. roti, kapra, makaan, health etc.) part of individual self-interest to the extent possible by current technology.

Significant further improvements can thus only come via technological advance - notably medical advancements, where the ultimate of course is eternal life and good health (which, as the famous genetic scientist Craig Venter e.g. once noted, could well be around the corner).

With respect to the second aspect of Maslow's paradigm, it is self-actualization through various means that yields happiness. How does one do this? Clearly, this again is done via scientific and technological advance - which gives mankind (and thus the individual) a greater sense of control over nature.

So how is scientific and technological advance achieved? through the scientific method, through education, through a progressive and free environment.

So, one can then say that in summary the highest morality is that which promotes human advancement along the above lines. And that is what makes all these religious/ethnic/nationalist types who make newspaper headlines the most immoral of individuals.

Having solved this problem, time for dinner (which always yields happiness).

89:
"...I have said that it is the best imagination of man..."
=========================================================

o r the imagination that it is the best imagination of man

So when did it dawn on you, or was it revealed to you, that you were Man...are you?.....you seem kind of certain about it.

Actually, given the persecution scientists have suffered at the hands of religious tyranny, it is fairer to say religious people are hypocritical in enjoying the fruits of that same science.

Riaz:

What is God?

I have said that it is the best imagination of man. Not very different from expressions of Einstein, Bertrand Russel to Riga Veda.

Since it is an imagination, it is a concept an abstraction which gives a set of belief where reasoning of science fails, logic fails because current human knowledge cannot by definition have all answers.

Re: # 85
Anil, I agree that there has been an evolution in how people practice their beliefs. But, at the core, most people have a sense of spirituality based on religion and concept God. Even Einstein believed in God, and he tried to reconcile faith and science. He expressed this dichotomy as follows: "Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind."
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

#75 Posted by bulleya

.....what is the basis of this rational behavior

Knowledge is the basis of rational behavior as well as the philosophical basis of ethics. The majority is usually ignorant of knowledge so it is the ‘wise ones’ that the society goes to, to find how to behave ethically. So it is the knowledge of the ‘elders’ in any society which will determine the ethics of that society. If these elders happen to be religious people then their ethics would be based on religion. If they would be in the US it would probably be determined in the Supreme Court or Universities.

#79 Posted by tahmed32

whose "self-interest" should one have in mind?

It has to be your individual self interest which you extrapolate on to the universe. I was taking an extreme example but it is the mundane where the strength of the principle becomes evident. To litter, to pollute, to break the line, to seek an advantage over others or not etc. if rigorously applied at the individual or home or organization level could have a transformational effect on all society.

Re: # 82

Riaz:

Secular is an abstract construct, just as God can be the best imagination of man. The spectrum of human thoughts has evolved a lot from the days of Ten Commandments, Quran or Eastern Philosophies. In the beginning there was no difference these thoughts ruled. As science evolved freedom to relentlessly probe, question and change, this process separated unquestioned beliefs, whatever they may be – God, a book, a messenger, a guru. For balanced personal life we all need a belief system to keep sanity and bring spirituality, probity of science yield verifiable and provable answers. With its relentless probity comes material wealth. Problem is when personal belief system is projected and enforced on society at large. This is when subjective beliefs are portrayed as laws of society to name the few, and clashes begin. I can write more on this conflict. May be some other time.