The State And Its' Wars

Re: # 52well said
http://pukhtunkhwatimes.blogspot.com/

http://thepathans.blogspot.com/

http ://twitter.com/mwaqar09

Feroz Khan Sahib:
You did discuss in great detail the evolution of the state and its military in Europe but neglected two other models which are even more important to Pakistan then Europe, these being the US experience and the Islamic Model. US is very important in this case being the present day hegemon and because of its involvement in how Pakistan will end up for the future. For the people of Pakistan religion is the most important so you have to discuss an Islamic Model for maintaining an army.

When we look at the American and the French Revolutions which took place within a few years of each other the results have been profoundly different. Whereas Europe continued to suffer through terror and tyrannies and vastly destructive wars that created misery for millions till its final culmination in the Second World War. The American Revolution resulted in creating a well ordered system of government, with clear goals, checks and balances and mechanisms to resolve issues in an orderly manner. A system which despite a very bloody civil war ended up emancipating its slave population and uplifting the vanquished South and coming together as a nation.

The early Colonists were deeply suspicious of the English King and his army, but to counter that they did not want to have their own king or even their own army they didn’t want any one to usurp their rights. George Washington had a substantial militia in addition to his regular troops to help him in the Revolutionary War. The colonies used militias for local defense and conscription when their werent enough volunteers. A small peace time professional army suplemented by conscription during war times has been used very effectively in the past two hundred years in America.

The Muslim experience is even more profound as it tells us precisely what not to do. How every Ottoman Sultan whether he incorporated a janissary corp or doubled the salary of his existing army ended up being a hostage to them. But the point becomes like Malik Rashid said who will put the bell around the neck of this cat. Just saying that this ought to be done without suggesting a workable solution doesn’t mean much.

the link in #51 doesnt work. here is the article then:
ANALYSIS: Gulf excess and Pakistani slaves —Rafia Zakaria

Pakistanis themselves, mired in denial and ever-ready to engage in the pantomime of pretending to be Arab, are inured to this reality of Arab racism. Easily appeased with the promise of Gulf jobs when their own country is in shambles they consider any paltry thankless employment a godsend

“We need slaves to build monuments,” says an Iraqi engineer living in Abu Dhabi to a reporter from the Guardian. In the published report he goes to add that he would never use the metro if it wasn’t segregated since “we would never sit next to Pakistanis and Indians because of their smell”.

The dismal condition of Pakistani labourers in the Gulf States is well known and the above statements are merely reflections of the deep-seeded and overtly racist attitudes of Arabs in the Gulf and otherwise towards Pakistanis.

...A recent statement issued by Special Envoy Richard Holbrooke in Brussels revealed that the Taliban are being funded by individuals from the Gulf States. Secretary Holbrooke said: “The Taliban receive more funding from the Gulf States than they do from the narcotics trade”. ...Smelly Pakistanis, the Arabs have discovered, are not only good enough to build crass monuments to consumerism but also to fight misguided holy wars that destroy nations and eviscerate thousands of innocent lives...Holbrooke’s statement is not the only basis for believing that the Taliban are receiving support from the Gulf States. In May of this year, the United Nations sent out an international appeal for aid for the nearly 2 million people displaced by the fighting in the tribal areas and the NWFP. While the US has pledged USD320 million for the IDPs and the EU has pledged up to USD121 million, no significant pledges have been made from the Gulf States.

This strange dichotomy in which our supposed Muslim brethren have turned their back on the suffering of the people of Swat, Buner and Dir makes far more sense in light of new information that illustrates that in picking sides, rich sheikhs from the Gulf have chosen to place their bets with the Taliban rather than with the Pakistani soldiers fighting them. .

nhk #50: excellent points you make about how in fact post-dictatorship pakistan has a lot going for it. as for this waning of the arab-worship for many pakistanis (who equate bowing to mecca to bowing to arabs), here is a very interesting article today (that Ras Siddiqui, who probably stays away from chowk the same reason as you, sent):

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=200981\story_1-8-2009_ pg3_2

Dear Feroz

Today Dost Mitter asked me on Facebook why I stay away from Chowk. I told him maybe the debates have become less educative & enterataining and more acrimonios & unpleasant. Or maybe, all that had to be said has been said and all that had to be heard has been heard.

Back to your essay. I liked your introduction where you confined your scope.

But I very respectfully disagree with your finding that the Army's Role has to be re-defined & that should solve all our problems.

We need to go one step behind. The Army issue comes later. There was a genetic defect in country's creation & nobody really clarfied it unambiguously.

What and how much was supposed to be the link of Islam with the country? We keep getting into deeper & deeper mess because of this confusion.

This confusion was only exploited by Army - be it the case of Kashmir or India.

Since no Political party barring ANP has the courage to ask for a `Secular' polity, we remain in the same confusion. Religious parties continue to give births to viruses such as Taliban.

So the next best choice is to clamour for democracy that diffuses the religious label somewhat.

But far from being a failed State, I think we are in good shape for following reasons:

Barring India, there is no other State within 1000 miles of Pakistan that can claim the following:

A- Open & fair elections held.

B- Democratic Government with strong opposition in place.

C- Free Media.

D- Independent Judiciary.

Rest all is details & recoverable. The emotional love for Islam in public perception has waned because of fiery display of Taliban's Islam. Animosity towards India has waned. The new generation could not care less. Kashmir is almost never in the general public discourse.

So, my friend, all is well under the sky. We need patience & let the political cycle continue.

Army's fight against Taliban is probably its first genuine war & it is doing a good job. More than the Army, the politicians have become wiser - they do not hate each other to the extent that the Army finds an excuse to jump in.

regards

indigenously trained

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MASADI is back with new name,masadi da thug u cant hide ur mean ignorant face from the world,u r moving from state to stae in USA and askin people for donatuions on ur web site.

Get rid of the military's officer thugs and its dirty history ever since the partition, a stinking dirty unprofessional, losing, losers, history of the military and its interference in the affairs of the state and its officers that pimped the nation and brought us to the sorry state we are in today. Get rid of the OC with immediate effect, that is the only solution.

TNITC masadi09

In #44 it should be ingenuously trained and not industriously trained....

Have the nice day and let us get rid of the military and its thugs from Pakistan as soon as possible

greetings old friends and miserable enemies, the fact of the matter is that the Pakistan military is the most unprofessional of all militaries around the globe- professionalism doesn't mean that you:

1. Sell yourself to the imperialist power and put the lives of the over 170m people at deliberate risk by playing the American game

2. It does not mean trying to start a nuclear war with a much bigger rival as in the case of Kargil

3.It does not mean you destroy the country's political institution which is the only means for the people of the country to make their voices heard

4. It does not mean you capture through deceit the nation's land resources and allocate them to your officers

5. It does not mean you capture through deceit the nations manufacturing capability what rudimentary capability it has and allocate it to your "foundations".

6. It does not mean that you kill your own people so that you can get some extra funds from the thugs that have "professionalized" you.

The Pakistan Army's officer corps need to be disbanded with immediate effect or Pakistan will remain in the sorry state that it is in at the present. We do not need a military period, in this day and age only the imperialists and not some third rate subordinate nation like India can occupy and hold land, it wont be tolerated which makes this entire endeavor of maintaining an India deterrence BS nuisance value military thuggery of the highest caliber. After disbanding the officers corps and bringing them all to justice, a new military subordinate on all fronts to the civilian leadership should be designed and industriously trained

TNITC masadi09

Posting on behalf of Masadi sahib

Fuzair writes in support of Zia, little wonder this (deleted)friend of dictators will support Zia. You (deleted) military supporter now you are singing Zia's praises, the army will come to naught in Pakistan, the people will ensure that (deleted) military thugs will be brought to justice. The Pakistan military needs to be reigned in and like all militaries treated as the leech that it is and made subordinate to the civilian establishment. As it currently stands it is subordinate only to the American imperialists whose occupation force it happens to be...

Regards

re: fuzair # 40

No harm being in a traditionalist. We are all traditionalists of sorts in our own ways.

ciao

Addressed To All:

As the author of this article, one of the my responsibilities is to moderate the discussions on this thread.

With this in mind, I would be interested in knowing who "Red Flagged" interact # 34 by Majumdar posted on behalf of Masadi?

For the record, I found nothing in that post, which was addressed to me, to be of an offensive content. Secondly; I would like to ask the Chowk staff to allow Masadi to post on Chowk.

ciao

IIRC, about 20 years ago I came across a privately published booklet written by a Bengali officer (9th or 10th PMA IIRC) whom my father knew pretty well. He had come up with a plan for a cadreised Army based on a small professional core and the draft. His plan was to defeat India using a Maoist type People's War concept but based on Islam as the motivating force. This officer had left the Army as a major and was now working in Germany and married to a German woman. My father had met him there and he asked my father to give the booklet to Gen. Zia. My father agreed to do his old friend a favor and did so.

I asked my father about the plan and the officer (unfortunately I don't recall his name). He told me that this officer was absolutely brilliant but a complete crackpot. IIRC, he had won the Norman Gold medal for academics at PMA and had left the Army one step ahead of a court martial (telling off his stupid superiors what they were doing wrong). My father pointed out that a cadreised/conscript army performed well only if they were extremely well motivated and their initial training was of a very high level (e.g. Israeli Army). A few weeks/months or training every couple of years could keep this force functioning well in combat--and even for Israelis, keep in mind they are fighting for their lives and against Arabs, not against the Wehrmacht!

For a nation and Army such as ours, who couldn't even keep the reservists a year or two out of service trained properly , a conscriptee/cadreised army would perform even worse than the regular army would. He was in favor of a draft and especially drafting officers (both to reduce the YO shortage and to make it harder for the COAS to stage a coup against a popular civilian govt) but this kind of a decentralized Peoples Army was going to be a disaster. Also, would be next to impossible to keep a mechanized force that way.

Anyway, call me a traditionalist but I like pretty parades, drill, a lot of spit and polish and realistic training!

Probably the ideal would be to have a small border security force to contain border incidents. Then a large reserve citizen's militia under provincial (or even district) control only activated in times of emergency.
Also, should remove the cantonments from all capital cities.

How we get there is the real problem. Who will bell the cat?