Recalibrating The Moral Compass

hmmm...i guess chowk staff decided to give me another chance. whew!!

Hadmidm: TehsinA says you have been trivializing The Lord Thy God again?!! How do you think God feels when you do this??

hamid writes " look at the mess he has created on earth - disease, pestilence, masadi - and we have no idea of what he has wrought on the poor creatures in other galaxies ....... "

This post should be redflagged but nonetheless do not blame the mess on earth on God, it is the creation of the same folk that created the financial mess in the USA, all in the name of freedom and civilization.

Have a nice day and do not take the name of your intellectual superiors in vain.

lets see if chowk staff has left the door open for miscreants like myself...

hamid writes "Re: # 190

sattar mian,

...... you are making the assumption that god is a rational being..."

I am afraid you are ill informed. He is making the assumption that his own personal moral criteria (which you mistake as 'rational') are the criteria that God uses while choosing a messenger. How relevant those criteria are to the task of 'message delivery' is debatable as is the claim by Sattar like the mullahs to delve into the mind of God to extract his criteria without any warrant being given them

Have a nice day and get an education.

#191 Posted by hamidm2

You see this is your problem! There you go again trivializing God. There is more to God then Bachus (God of wine) or Cupid casting arrows blindfolded. Try to find God within your self. That is your moral compass and like Anil said it is vascillating dangerously right now.

hamidm (#188),

I am only having some fun with our mutual friend, tahmed - the voice of god. He is probably perched on his armchair, trying to save the world through diligent google searches; free Quran lessons will follow. Soon he’ll try, yet again, to convert DM into accepting Quran. You’ll be next … so beat it out while you still can …

If humans are his best creations, I can accept god being a nutcase. Although I hope you understand the downside of being an atheist …

Re: # 191

hamid sahib, whats the fun in being God if u cant throw the dice and whats the fun in being prophet if u cant sleep with the teenage beauty and kill at ur discretion?

#182 hamidm2
If you really love them, let them go.
Don't eat them.

Re: # 190

sattar mian,

...... you are making the assumption that god is a rational being ...... for all we know, he might be a nutcase who spends all day with his best buddy gabriel smoking dope, eating peyote pakoras and drinking bad hooch ...... as a matter of fact, if you look at the body of evidence it is clear that the guy is a wacko or totally incompetent ...... look at the mess he has created on earth - disease, pestilence, masadi - and we have no idea of what he has wrought on the poor creatures in other galaxies ....... and if you don't mind me saying so, most of the prophets he chose were nutcases too - moses, who couldn't follow simple instructions on how to get water out of a rock and left his people wandering in the desert; abraham, who tried to kill his own son and was sleeping around at the age of ninety three; job, who couldn't manage his family affairs and let satan run circles around him; joseph, who got thrown in jail for messing around with his master's wife ........... and the prize goes to the guy who got eaten by a tuna !

masadi (#177),

I am ok with the idea of “making the deen pure for God alone” … but God Himself keeps referring to the Prophet … asking believers to love the message by loving and following the messenger. Why not simply love God and His message? Why does God Himself drag the messenger, as well as his wives, into all this?

You may separate the Prophet from the Man. But is it possible to love the Prophet while hating the Man? Is it possible to treat his widow as one’s spiritual mother, while marrying her in flesh? The point I am making is that in a lot of ways, the Man and the Prophet, the flesh and the spirit - are inseparable.

And as far as I could check, each time Quran declares Muhammad only a messenger, it does so in the context of disbelievers. Take your time on this, but do check and let me know if I misunderstood.

+++

I accept that “God knows best with whom to place His message”, but with some clarification:

My take is that one’s piety is not the only issue, but perhaps one of many criteria … so yes, only God can decide who to raise as a prophet, and when (ahem).

Conversely, I can’t imagine God raising as a prophet a person who habitually lies, cheats, abuses others, fornicates, back-bites, connives, is arrogant and jealous … while asking believers to ignore the prophet’s personal traits and to only follow the message he brings.

Perhaps that’s a limitation of my own imagination, perhaps God indeed raised prophets who continued to commit evil in their personal spheres even as they asked believers to be virtuous.

Incidentally, that would also be the logical outcome of separating the Man from the Prophet, the flesh from the spirit … something I can't still make sense of.

hamidm:

I don't understand why you have difficulty understanding your buddy Tehsin's position vis-a-vis pork. There are similarly many non-believing Hindus who can't eat beef or even any meat.This is part of cultural habits that become a part of us at an early age. I myself never ate beef (actually, it's not easily available in Delhi) until I left India although I was a non-believer even then. Even here, you do not see many goras eating dog's meat although Chinese have no problem with it. Once you are conditioned not to think of something as food, it is hard to change that conditioning whether it is beef, pork, dog, horse, frog, octopus or worms. At other extreme, you have some Hindus who have no problem imbibing cow's urine while think of beer as piss. Go figure!

Re: # 186

sattar mian,

..... please be nice to tahmed mian - he is merely trying to find a fig leaf for his superstitions and being a koranist gives him that leeway ......... the koran, with its endless rhetoric and contradictory statements, provides him with a few 'good ideas' that he can hang his topee on ......... for example, one can take the oft quoted verse "there is no compulsion in religion" to demonstrate that islam is a tolerant religion while conveniently ignoring all the hundreds of vayahs and hadiths that exhort and goad the believers to kill the apostates, heretics, unbelievers and mirzaees ...........

........ please leave tahmed alone - as i have said before, he likes to pee in his pants because it gives him a nice warm feeling ...........

Re: # 180

Welcome Superasadi. I like this name even better. I request that people do not mindlessly red-flag this handle, instead have courage to come out and debate in the open.

tahmed miaN,

Some final comments, hopefully to put the issue to bed:

If you are unsure about origins of Quran (per your post #132), then why treat Quran as something divine? Arguably it was authored, narrated, and compiled by humans. But you fervently treat it as YOUR morality GPS (per your post #144).

In doing so you essentially follow other humans, and treat their word as the word of god … while sidelining your own sense of good and bad. According to your own definition, this is exactly what a mullah does.

Muhammad said a lot of things, some of which got recorded as Quran, some as Ahadith. Similarly, Muhammad did a lot of things, which are practiced as Sunnah.

You follow Quran, while condemning those who follow Ahadith or Sunnah. There’s hardly any difference between the three groups of believers, per your own criterion. Each group is following the works of other humans.

+++

You may want to ponder over this instead of your usual bickering. Good luck.

sorry...6th/7th century arabia...
I propose the following stuff in Pakistan...

1) There should be only one language, that should be arabic/urddooo...

2) every household should rear at least one pair of camel

3) Pakistan should grow more date, should target self sufficiency in producing this fruit

4) electricity, TV, Radio etc, should be banned but RDX, AK47 etc, should be manufactured/produced in larger quantity.

5) all schools should be turned in mosque/madressah and red mosque should be made the central mosque/madressah

....

The glorious days of Islam is coming back and you should create something like Bako Haram....


Oh yeah, India should divert all water from Indus etc... to make Pakistan look like real arab....That will be mutualy beneficial....

irfan waheed...
I feel you are lamenting on the fact that Pakistan is moving closer to islamic culture, purging whatever civilised/indic root it had and preveting western cultural influence...

But wasn't that the purpose of creation of Pakistan?

Muhammed (ali Jinnah) is second prophet and muslas accross the world should recognize it. Pakistan should fully convert into a zoo, resembling 14 the century Arabia. Pakistan is moving towards proper direction...You need little more help from Saudis...
Long Live "Al Pakistaniya"