An Eyewitness account from Gojra

Re: # 458

DM ji

I totally agree with you. Especially after the robbers overtook our house and we remained at their mercy for an hour or so I am of the view that the first priority of the state must be the rule of law, democracy or no democracy. But that needs change in the mindset of the people, as you rightly stressed. This, however, seems to be impossible particularly in Pakistan where Talibani, Illamdeeni, Mukhtarani, etc., anti-social and anti-human cultures prevail.

#437 Kryptonite, good points on the lies people tell with statistics, on the one hand they say dictatorship is preferred to democracy because democracy cannot exist under feudalism (deliberate obfuscation and legitimation of tyranny similar to the US claim that those third world nations are not mature enough for democracy when they coddle dictators), and on the other hand they say using the GINI that there is lesser inequality in Pakistan compared to the US- make up your mind what do you want? feudalism or industiralism? greater or lesser inequality, democracy or dictatorship. Some people like this RiazHaq character are just plain simple confused in their argumentation as were Bush and Cheney, when you support the wrong thing, when you support tyranny you just keep making up reasons along the road....

Poster anil writes "These two giants took different paths. It is because of the independent path that India took, it is an entity, it is an identity, it is an economy today, and it is a democracy."

I think you mean these two gnats not "giants". India's "independant" path meant non alignment in the shenanigans of the major powers while benefitting from Russian coddling due to manipulating its neighbours relationship with the Americans (unfortunately due to the Pakistan Army's conquest of political Pakistan). What you suggest here as India's reason for economic development and democracy is at odds with your claim of capitalism and Indian integration into the unipolar world where it is used for wooing smaller powers like China (compared to the SU). In other words India has so demeaned its previous independent outlook that now it is aligning itself with a country that is using it to manage much smaller powers, it has thus aligned itself based on a smaller scale of worth than the US/SU alignment which it avoided. How you can term this as growth or success is beyond me. Please get your stories straight and have a good evening....

Pew:

I do not know what role Savarkar played in Gandhi's murder. I know that he was tried and not found guilty. I was thinking of Savarkar as someone who was an agnostic/atheist with a hindu identity (not unlike most hindus at this website) who could have fully understood a non-religious person like Jinnah with a Muslim identity; you could easily switch him for Arbindo Ghosh who too had a hindu identity. Gandhi was a devout Hindu but did not have a hindu political identity, Nehru had none -religious or political. That was a time in history to make a historic compromise which was lost. At least, this is my one-man opinion.

anil#455:

We all agree that India is now moving along the right path. The only thing that I would like to see changed is the mindset of the people -and reflected in the administration at all levels- is a change in the mindset which equates democracy with lawlessness of 'sab chalta hai' type. We need to shed the image of a soft state not only externally but also internally.

Re: # 451 Dost

"...I am now convinced that there was a better chance of retaining one country if Hindus were represented by someone like Savarkar than by the secular Congress. He and Jinnah both had a basic agreement over Hindus and Muslims being two nations and, with that basic agreement, would have found a formula to coexist peacefully in a single country...'

OK - I read up a little bit about Sarvakar. A 1965 commission inquiring about the murder of Mahatma Gandhi determined that he should have been found guilty of it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kapur_Commission

You think that this man should have had been at the helm of affairs in India? That is unbelievable.

Re: # 455

Anil Saab - Rightly said. Indian democracy and secularism has its flaws. But the trends - both Human development and gut feel say its on the right track.

Pew Research / Dost sahib:

Jinnah is an abandoned Indian hero. Whatever he is to Pakistan has nothing to do with it. Indian muslims could no longer call him their hero. Any hindu/sikh calling him as a hero would have been called a lunatic at that time. Jinnah's hero status needs to be re-established, if India is a plural place.

Pakistanis have lost his vision, two party democracy in India can use it.

Partition took its toll from all sides. However looking back one cannot igonore that fact that the writ of central authority from Delhi would have stretched far thinner and would have been impossible govern. Development would have been impossible.

It is also quite fashionable to measure and criticize Nehru / Gandhi / Patel with today's yardstick. When you look at the period, colonialism was at its peak, apartheid was accepted as a norm even among the "liberals". There were simply no development dollars for India or China after their independence / march. Victorious west was more interested in establishing European hegemony in Asia (Ho Chi Minh was turned down, Korea was broken up, pro-west Japan, South Korea and Taiwan were rebuilt).

India and China were simply not priority. Global trade in those days meant not IT outsourcing, but importing minerals and raw materials from there, not talent not manufactured goods.

These two giants took different paths. It is because of the independent path that India took, it is an entity, it is an identity, it is an economy today, and it is a democracy. Yes it may be a cracked entity, a confused indentity, an economy with disparity, and a very defective democracy; but no one can deny that it is here. It is the only surviving experiment in democracy in third world. These may mean nothing to some.

Pew:

We are more or less on the same page now. Thanks.

Re: # 452 Dost
Addendum...

You should recognize that neither Jinnah or the Congress 'won'. In the end, they each got a less-optimal, and an undesired outcome. Jinnah did not get the Pakistan that he wanted (hence his reference to a 'moth-eaten' Pakistan), and we all know that Congress even though it accepted Partition was not happy with the outcome (hence, Nehru's Independence Day speech - 'though not wholly or in full measure').

Partition was a failure for all parties concerned, even though the euphoria of Independence overcame much of that.

Re: # 451 Dost

I would like Jinnah's role, tactics be be better understood in India - which they are not. I do not admire him because in the end he amounted to be a shrewd lawyer-politician, not a statesman, that was needed at the time. I think that it is healthy for Indian school children to understand Jinnah (and the Congress leaders) in their failings as accurately as possible.

I have no idea about Savarkar, and the 'what-if' scenario that you outlined.

Pew:

Yes, I have read about Jaswant's book but can't say how much details he has gone into. I too am an admirer of Jinnah but I do not want to deprive him the title of the qaid who got a homeland for India's Muslims and transfer it to Nehru and Patel, who at the most can be credited for not conceding to his compromise solution. But that solution, if it refers to the 1946 cabinet mission plan, was defective from an Indian pov as it contained a poison pill in the form of an option for the 'B' states to opt out of the confederation after 5/10 years. Given the communal hysteria that had taken over the country during the period, it was almost inevitable that such a solution would have led to India losing the whole of Punjab and Bengal as well as Assam.

That said, I am now convinced that there was a better chance of retaining one country if Hindus were represented by someone like Savarkar than by the secular Congress. He and Jinnah both had a basic agreement over Hindus and Muslims being two nations and, with that basic agreement, would have found a formula to coexist peacefully in a single country.

Re: # 336 Dost

Dost, since our last interact on Jinnah, Jaswant Singh has come out written a book on Jinnah. Although he is a senior member of the BJP, this book expresses his personal opinions. I hope that you read it, if not, then read Ayesha Jalal's 'The Sole Spokesman', which is very good. The latter is out of print, but you should be able to get it from a good library.

I think that the Congress Party (read Nehru Clan) that was in power for most of the early years after Independence did not think much of Jinnah. A viewpoint took hold that Jinnah was solely responsible for Partition. While the textbooks do not demonize Jinnah, they do hold him responsible. As a result, he has come to be demonized in India. I think that the 8th-12th standard textbooks should be re-written to more precisely explain his aim and methods. The Congress' insistence on a strong center that possibly led to Jinnah's demands should be explained. This is a complicated topic, but it still needs to be thoughtfully explained. My recollection is that this history is oversimplified: Jinnah wanted Partition and he got it.

I think that a re-appraisal of Jinnah is necessary in India. Although, I believe that he was quite irresponsible in the manner in which he pursued his demand for a Constitutional framework that eventually failed, but the failures were those of Nehru and Gandhi too.

Re: # 443 That is not working site

Re: # 443 I do not what american think but world thinks. They think India is mostly full of bunch of hindus and these hindus are chasing all animals from cows to elephants, dogs cats ,monkeys rats to worship , and feed them, animal worshippers. And all chaos going on indian roads with animals chasing people and men chasing animals in dhotis walking around without upper clothes.

While about pakistan they have strange ideas , like bunch of beared men shouting and blowing up things , motor cycle riding youths firing at immamburghas etc.

Any way world has strange wonderful ideas of what is going in both countries.

Re: # 445
Good observation. These are dangerous times signs I will agree with you. One famous exercise place in Karachi openly/ nearly openly advertising Yoga type strange Rituals under pretext of adding to flexibility to muscles ( adding subtle clear message of adding lure of improving sex life of tired and exhausted men and women-that is sex exploitation), they openly advocating not feasting on dead bodies eating vegetables etc ,typical pacifist hindu ideas under pretext of modernising even great americans are doing etc.

We are in real bad times , people are worried about adultered food medicines that is right but is pocket money compared to mental seduction and adulteration more dangerous than all of them.There is persian saying fish starts spoiling from head. Now let us not blame starting with Ayub... z to General PM , we can do any foolishness and absolve ourselves blaming ayub to Musharraff to mr. President.American smarter they are going storng right wing hristan united fight to stop yoga for young people. Their govt balances freedoms and responsibilities properly by restricting yoga stuff to adults for adult activities. Some such law is needed for protection of minors for protections. Good night.