A Freedom Of Pain And Hope

"Abraham sacrificing his son" forms the basis of Islam.

Re: # 533

nemesis3...well it must be, but just look at the philosophy that drives the vehicle of such primitive drivel that captivates the faith of people to this day!

#532 Posted by Goldfinger

This may deprive you of your pleasure, but the truth is that such a practice does not exist in India and the Government of India is hammer and tongs against it. You can not bet on the perverts, but they normally do not escape the arms of law. There is general disapproval for such a practice in our country.

Compare this with the elaborate arrangements made in your country to enable general public to view the slaughtering of the camels. Also the text books that carry the picture of slaughtered animal and explanation given in the text to mean that this slaughter is called sacrifice.

Try to agree with what is right and you will be left with less poison in your brain.

Re: # 531

Spy...well as I said, spilling blood ritually is paganism period, however I do say that in the case of Kali Maa its a few steps worse as she demands the blood of humans, that too by deceit and trickery, and as you may have noticed the human animal happens to be a little more evolved and of a little higher intellect and understanding then goats, camels and cows...so more of my fingers are pointed towards those doing human sacrifices rather then those doing goats etc...however I cnsider all religious jingoism as an utterly stupid pastime...

Re: # 518 Goldfinger "and then point fingers at others".

I am opposed to both kali mata and Islamic (goat/camel) sacrifices. But from your posts it appears you are focussed only against sacrifices to Kali mata. You need to make your figures point clearly.

Re: #516 : I agree...

Goldfinger

"Thugs also worship Kali Maa to kill by deceit and treachery.."

I suspect you are conspiring to kidnap Kali Maa inasmuch as you are tailoring her functions to suit your faith!!

Goldfinger

"on the one hand killings of your enemies in war, and on the other murdering your own by deceit and trickery, after befriending them... "

And see, how easy to make an enemy!! Just say he does not believe your god and he is your enemy. Kill him, maim him, rape him or enslave him. All that your will get is 32 prostitutes!!

#525 Posted by Goldfinger

Yeah. Even jinnah's grandpa belonged to that rot, kicked out from that rot and was refused to be readmitted into that rot. He had to seek asylum into a worse form of a rot and he thought he was avenging his expulsion.

Replace jinnah's name with yours and it would apply to you.

Re: # 522

Live on in your fantasy world of fairy tales...fortunately I have no such compunctions...I merely wish to expound that the older the belief in fairy tales, the worse and more rotten it is, because the more it draws upon the primeval...I said sacrifice is bad, and human sacrifice is the worst...and till today many primitives believe in that basic paganism in Hinduism by stealing kids of others or their own, and sacrificing them at the altar of the black Goddess, the Goddess of blood, to exorcise their demons...Thugs also worship Kali Maa to kill by deceit and treachery...compare the two evils now: on the one hand killings of your enemies in war, and on the other murdering your own by deceit and trickery, after befriending them...

Re: # 523

And you forgot to mention that oldest bastion of rot...India and its Hindutvas!

#516 Posted by tahmed32

"#515 Very true. What is "sacrifice" if not a form of bribery"

I agree with you. But this exists in all the religions and 'beliefs'. I think even in your religion some examples of sacrificing one's own son by a ninety year old (just imagine he got one at that age!! I suspect some conspiracy in that!)

#520 Posted by Goldfinger

"one could safely assume that old is not gold, but rot of a worse order..."

True! And it is showing up in afghanistan and Pakistan in a dangerous proportion. Time to clear the mess and dump that rot.

#512 Posted by Goldfinger

Hey, GF, Ajeya said this

"Anything but a mass-murderer, serial rapist and a pedophile. "

He was only mentioning about his preferences. Why you and tahmed getting worked up?

You are calling now non existing ritual of so called human sacrifice as a bad practice. I do agree with you if it exists. But what about the mass murder that ajeya attributed (and rightly so) to your prophet whom you regard as no less than a god? What about the camel slaughter in the name of religion? Don't you call it a sacrifice? What your ilks do in swat and afghanistan is also what they call as sacrifice. Why cling to the black goddess? If you have ethics, challenge ajeya on his above statement.

Your fear for black goddess is justified. After all she is there to vanquish demons and their followers!!

#520 a rot that seems to be spreading, not decreasing, in Pakistan thanks to saudi petrodollars.

Re: # 519

tahmed...yes in a way an appropriate summation! In this I guess one could safely assume that old is not gold, but rot of a worse order...

GF #518 In other words, we have have put down the following hypothesis concerning the relationship between a religion and associated rituals: the more rituals a religion has, the more negative its impact on society.

An important corollary to this is: the longer a religion has been around, the more time there has been for priests to consolidate their position by adding more rituals to it. And from this it follows: the longer a religion has been around, the larger the number of rituals associated with it.

If we test the above hypothesis against real life, it holds up very well I think. That is:

1. Hinduism has a vast set of rituals associated with it compared to Islam.

2. Similarly, in the west, Judaism and Roman Catholicism have more rituals associated with them compared to Protestantism.

Re: # 515

Indeed all sacrifices like the spilling of animal blood to please God are pagan rituals...however from even deeper and even more ancient depths of the cesspools of religious evilness springs forth the rituals of Thugee, and human sacrifices, such as the one's that still persist amongst people who wish to please the black Goddess...and then point fingers at others...

Re: # 515

Indeed all sacrifices like the spilling of animal blood to please God are pagan rituals...however from even deeper and even more ancient depths of the cesspools of religious evilness springs forth the rituals of Thugee, and human sacrifices, such as the one's that still persist amongst people who wish to please the black Goddess...and then point fingers at others...

#515 Very true. What is "sacrifice" if not a form of bribery. And why is bribery suddenly moral if it is offered to God (or gods) rather than to bureaucrats and politicians? This is just another example of how religion, as interpreted by the worst among men, i.e. the priests, promotes immorality and anti-social behavor.

Re: # 512 Any form of human or animal sacrifices are bad. Be they for the Kali mata (in Hindus) or the killing of the goats/camels in Islam by the muslims. Both do not have any logic or reason. Both are primitive and barbaric customs that have been given a religious flavor.

Anil sahib #504: So what you are saying is that Jaswant Singh lacks the political clout needed to form a separate party that draws off from BJP. Then perhaps the last option I presented - building upon the credibility he has built up among Pakistanis to promote peace between the two nations - is still on the table.

#506 Khyber: Mills contribute to the Pakistan economy and provide jobs. So, the fact that Nawaz Sharif is a mill owner is a qualification, not otherwise. I dont consider Nawaz Sharif to be a saint or a savior, btw. But as I said, over the past year or two he has been the main pillar standing between Musharraf/Zardari and their desire to disenfranchise the Pakistani people and rule over them (singly, preferably, or in cahoots per the NRO deal).

Re: # 511

ajeya...so in this then you wish to pick the horrible Goddess at whose altar you commit human sacrifice by trickery and treachery? Interesting...

#510 Goldfinger

Goldie my boy,

Ask yourself - what's better - worshipping a naked goddess or worshipping a pedophile?

I'm going with the naked goddess with the hanging tongue, or the elephant-headed god riding a mouse, or the monkey-god.

Anything but a mass-murderer, serial rapist and a pedophile.

Re: # 509

nkg...meanwhile, in your tussle for the ascendancy of the religious fairy tales...where do you think stands your Black Mother...your Kali Maa...the one with the black face, huge white eyes, and horrible red tongue, lusting after blood of human sacrifice...mother Goddess of the Thugs...the BJP and others like you?

Jali ...
I have replied in another place...
Doing the same again...
For a BJP leader, exposing Nehru is nothing harmful for them. Rather, it will be like exposing Congress. Jinnah is just a small pawn in this game. BJP can even praise Muhammed (the 7th century arab gangster), whatever small amount of goodwork he did, if it harms Congress... But ,somehow, he touched Patel, which BJP people did not liked....I am sure, next time, they should change the title to expose Nehru...
BTW, J Singh is a learned man...

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The mills owned by Nawaz Sharif family and relatives are Abdullah Sugar Mills, Brother Sugar Mills, Channar Sugar Mills, Chaudhry Sugar Mills, Haseeb Waqas Sugar Mills, Ittefaq Sugar Mills, Kashmir Sugar Mills, Ramzan Sugar Mills and Yousaf Sugar Mills.

Politicians, relatives own 50pc of country’s sugar factories
ISLAMABAD - It is ironic that people are expecting the ongoing sugar crisis to be resolved by the politicians who themselves are said to be the beneficiaries of this situation since many of them own more than 50 per cent sugar mills of the country.
TheNation has reliably learnt that there were a total of 78 sugar mills in the country and the political leaders or their relatives or partners owned more than 50 per cent of these sugar mills.
“Would the politicians give favour to the masses on the cost of their profits?” is a question being frequently asked by different quarters.

Kamalia Sugar Mills and Layyah Sugar Mills are also owned by PML-N leaders. Former minister Abbas Sarfaraz is the owner of five out of six sugar mills in the NWFP. Nasrullah Khan Dareshak owns Indus Sugar Mills while Jahangir Khan Tareen has two sugar mills; JDW Sugar Mills and United Sugar Mills. PML-Q leader Anwar Cheema owns National Sugar Mills while Chaudhrys family is or was the owner of Pahrianwali Sugar Mills as it is being heard that they have sold the said mills. Senator Haroon Akhtar Khan owns Tandianwala Sugar Mills while Pattoki Sugar Mills is owned by Mian Mohammad Azhar, former Governor Punjab.
PML-F leader Makhdoom Ahmad Mehmood owns Jamaldin Wali Sugar Mills. Ch Muneer owns two mills in Rahimyar Khan district and Ch Pervaiz Elahi and former Minister of State for Foreign Affairs, Khusro Bakhtiar have shares in these mills.
Many among the bureaucrats believe that Mian Shahbaz Sharif is a good leader but if he wanted to maintain his reputation, he should sell out his sugar mills. An official said, “One’s personal business always leaves impact on one’s decisions”.
The mills said to be owned by President Asif Ali Zardari’s family and PPP leaders are Ansari Sugar Mills, Mirza Sugar Mills, Pangrio Sugar Mills, Sakrand Sugar Mills and Kiran Sugar Mills. Ashraf Sugar mills is owned by PPP leader and incumbent ZTBL President Ch Zaka Ashraf.

Re: # 497

Tahmed sahib:

Indira Gandhi was expelled from Congress too. However, bulk of Congress's grass root organization went with her. The problem with Jaswant Singh is that BJP's grass root organization is all RSS (something Dost sahib eluded a while ago). BJP will need to get few more thrashings in the election before its, or new organization would be ready for right-of-center. My feeling is Jaswant is getting the media coverage - his claims now that he was covering for Advani (do not hold him as a good leader, may a loyal follower). He is no Indira Gandhi to pull a righ-of-center party. I would be most surprised and most delighted if someone can do it out of BJP.

ZAB has my admiration for awakening the people of Pakistan and challenging the power structure and altering the discourse of Pakistan from Islam khatray me hai to roti kapra and makan- he achieved more than most including your namesake.

Have a nice day.

Re: # 501
Top post. Must you demean yourself by using that jackasses name?

This Jaswant Singh story was actually copied by him from our very own Majumdar sahib here. The purpose of these right wing capitalist loons (with pardon majumdar) is to raise Jinnah on a pedestal because he rid them of the Muslims that they hate/dislike and to put the blame on socialists or proclaimed socialists which for them are the bigger "evil". You mean to tell me that the colonials had nothing to do with the creation of Pakistan, that get a federalist settlement was "impossible" but getting a brand new nation was "possible". This is all BS, an entire mythology was generated behind the creation of Pakistan a mythology that used the smoke screen of Islam by employing the Allama while behind which was the entrenched feudal power structure and the colonial desire to breakup India and give Pakistan a perpetual dependency status, raise its military to powerful status in that country and keep these two gnats embroiled with each others saas and bahu style problems. It was much bigger than Nehru and much bigger than Jinnah, Jinnah was the major criminal Mir Jafer in the equation and he damned the Muslims of India to live in perpetual slavery and damned the Muslims of Pakistan to live under military/colonial domination.

Have a nice day and do fall for the propaganda of the bigots who love Jinnah and the colonials (J.Singh) only because they hate Muslims and socialism. There is no maturity involved in the book, it was agenda driven....

alephdud: let us hope the indian education system does not produce too many specimen like you. that would be even worse than the 63 years of brainwashing done on an entire nation wrt 1947 events!!

PS: first and last post to you. i like to save my chowk time with people who actually have something to say.

chacha32:

{{Do you think the traitor Jaswant Singh should be beheaded for writing this book on Jinnah that was proven wrong over and over again the past 63 years by the Indian education system?}}

I have no reason to believe that you have the slightest grasp of the Indian education system either in theory or as it functions in practice, let alone what it might say about ol' Gin-and-Tonic. Nor have you read Jaswant Singh's book. Even if you did, your powers of reading comprehension are not adequate to understand it. Detail, subtlety, nuance, irony are quite beyond you. You can be relied upon to deliver a farcical precis that fits your ignorant preconceptions while turning the sense (the essence, if you will) of a book around on its head.

But none of these disabilities has dissuaded you from rushing in with a pompous summary judgment where lesser men would fear to tread. You run true to form, as always.

Rashid sahib #492: True. This was my point in #496 below as well - things are not as black and white in 1971 as would seem from what has been the standard line I have heard on chowk from some of the self-proclaimed "paki bashers".

anil sahib #494 It is indeed a positive sign that India is maturing as a nation that someone like Jaswant Singh can write a book that is more nuanced than merely painting Jinnah as a "villain". And by removing him from the party, BJP is refusing to mature with the nation.

What would be interesting would be the next move - Jaswant Singh forming his own party that competes with BJP to become the primary opposition party; joints Congress; steps off politics; or (to my mind the most fruitful from the regional perspective), uses the goodwill he has built up in Pakistan (as is obvious from newspaper comments etc.) to take the lead in helping the entire region finally take a step beyond 1947 and start focussing on the common problems that are facing the entire region (rule of law, socio-economic progress). He could then prove himself to be as history-changing an individual as Jinnah.

#495 Pardesi: Thanks for your understanding.

My point was that reality is far too often hidden in a smoke of rhetoric and self-indulgent views. The brutal and totally senseless manner (he was after all from the army education corps who chose to stay on duty as principal of the college rather than simply seek safety by taking leave) in which this man was murdered is one such case that you will never hear from anyone who prefers to enjoy himself by seeing reality as black and white (and we have a lot of that in south asia).

Tahmed: That's a very sad story. Yes, press had mentioned many atrocities committed by Mukti Bahini too.

However, on balance Pakistani rulers (Army/Civilians) had lost the PR battle before Indian forces had even moved in since Pakistani forces were seen as outsiders attacking innocent freedom seeking bengalis. As we all know media shapes perceptions and Pakistani rulers were no match for Indira Gandhi and those millions of bengali refugees on TV screens.

When top leadership screws up wars, it rarely pays the price with its own blood. It's the honest soldiers and their officers, like your family friend.

Re: # 489

Tahmed sahib:

In case you have not been following what I have been writing here, Jaswant Singh only confirmed what I have been saying that "Jinnah is an abandoned Indian Hero". I pity BJP that they are unable to breakaway from RSS fascist stranglehold and become a right-of-center party. Such a party needs to be inclusive, most young Indians who vote BJP vote for its perceived right of center policy.

Modi has exploited economic success of Gujrat, despite him, beyond his capabilities. In its "Chintan Baithak" he and Advani have singled out for BJPs electoral defeat. The message they are ignoring is, that Hindutva is no longer a currency in India. This is why they lost.

Now, India would have to wait a few more generations before having a vibrant two party democracy. RSS/BJP cannot deliver it. This is my assessment of expulsion of Jaswant and prevailing of Modi, Advani and Co. No one is talking about Advani's hypocrisy that he was the first one to say so about Jinnah, and he as active in expelling the second person who said so too. BJP/RSS politics.

The strength of USA and China comes from its centralized polity. To keep it intact America sacrificed 10& of its population in civil war and China probably much more.

Cabinet mission was for creating bases lie UAE, House of Sauds, Kuwait, Jordan, Palestine...colonization without making ones hands dirty.

Evanjihadis (Evanealous activities), Marxism, todays Naxalbari are tools to uproot people from their culture, ethos and subjugate them. Secular Papilandi Islamist gandus (PIGs) such as draculla are the worst weapons in the hands of exploiters and community destroyers. They are the origianal kasabs. Papilandis need to know the root cause of terrorism: it's this alienation from brother, neighbor...searching for identity in alien book, culture and living in the past.

Re: # 488
Tahmed sahib
Since you mentioned Chittagong, I have heard stories of muktibbahini and Indian forces conducting joint operations in that area killing thousands of civilians. Employees of Chandraghona paper mills lived near the factory. Their neighbourhood was surrounded and each non-bengali murdered. I remember mention of an Indian training camp in Chittagong hill-tracts near Burmese border.

Jaswant Singh's book reveals that Jinnah did not desire partition, instead he recommended a federal structure for India. Pakistanis are happy that Jinnah and the muslims may be absolved from being the sole enemies of Indian intgrity but Pakistani history texts might need a serious update if this new historic version becomes established. If Jaswant Singh's version is applied, the assertion that Jinnah fought for a seperate homeland for muslims must be discarded. For Indians too, Singh's research could restate history. Nehru and Patel wanted to centralise the expanse of India so the muslim demand for special status in a federated India could not be accomodated and muslims were forced to separate from India. The muslims projected as anti India because they espouse a religion considered un-Indian would be shattered.

lalooism of changing colors like chameleon is gandu politician's core personality. Draculla (MAJ) is the presiding deity of this ism.

Why dont Kasabi papis make Jassoo's book compulsory reading for matriculation. This will India earn more foreign exchange. Please send the books back to India so other some other old fart gandu can write a good book on some other Papi gandu e.g. Zia or Bhutto who founded present Kasabi papiland. We need to keep english speaking kasabi handlers busy in useless book reading.

Desi Bandhuo you be busy in translating Resnick Haliday, Russian/Chinese/Korian/Hungarian Math Olympiad books in Marathi, Oriya, Tamil, Asaamy etc

Anil sahib: Do you think the traitor Jaswant Singh should be beheaded for writing this book on Jinnah that was proven wrong over and over again the past 63 years by the Indian education system?

At least Saint Modi had the good sense to ban his book, otherwise God knows what would happen if Indians were to fall off their moral pedestal!!

Pardesi: Here is another atrocity committed by the Pakistan Army that Indians may wish to place under their moral pedestal: The 'napak; army (as terrorists and their sympathizers call it in-between getting thrashings) assigned a West Pakistani army officer as principal for the Chittagong Cadet College - who then committed the crime of running an educational instituiton, and for which the brave Mukti Bahini killed him (despite these brave men being heavily outgunned - after all, he was armed with a pen, and they were armed with guns, and we all know that the pen is mightier than the gun). I know this because he was a family friend.

Re: # 477

Zali sahib:

"....#473 blog polls are unscientific, their sample is non representative and the results easily manipulatable, it says nothing...."

Why do you forget that this is true for your blogs (be on your web, and in yous posts)? Please always look in the mirror before you go out.

BTW, after so many reincarnations, do you still regard your self, the book abiding Muslim?

Agantuk, you have just confirmed all those stories about Pakistani army's atrocities that we use to read in early 70s in western media.

However, I have couple of questions. Do Bangladeshis appreciate Indian role in your liberation? If so, is there any truth to many chowkies' statements about how Bangladeshis feel more closeness to Pakistanis these days than Indians? If it's true, where did India screw up in terms of relationship? Or is it just reawakening of original muslim vs. hindu thing no matter what Indians did for Bangladeshis? Thanks.

shankar: We pakis get a high on unrequited love. You, as a psychiatrist, should understand this.

Tahmed,

Have non Arab muslim countries like Indonesia, Malaysia or Iran criticized India about Kashmir?

#482 shankar: and arabs know anything about morality?

agantuk,

I admire your tenacity. What you are telling us is what Indians were told about what was happening in East Pakistan. Millions of refugees from E. Pakistan came after the military crackdown. My colleague from Bangladesh says the same thing.

Apologists for Pakistan will call anybody they disagree with as RAW/CIA agents. Infact, some of them even had the balls to claim that most of the "refugees" were actually slum dwellers from Calcutta, looking for free food!

That shameless Niazi, in his book, equated the Pakistani army in the East to the "Afrika Corps" (ofcourse, he was Rommel).

Indian atrocities in Kashmir are shameful. I wont & cannot defend Indian atrocities.

However, have you ever wondered why no muslim country (not even Pakistan's sugar daddy S.Arabia) has out rightly sided with Pakistan's plaintive wail in defense of the slavery of "occupied Kashmir"?

Because Pakistan has no frikking moral leg to stand on.

OK, what the heck is going on?

first it was krytoniteminefield, then he became supermasadi & now he is zalibhutto?

i dont want to play judge or juror in the masadi & Chowk staff feud, but if they could effectively block arjun & that "12 headed" guy, why cant they block masadi?

this multiple personality business is causing some slight knot in my dhoti..:)

#479 Mr. Masadi: I give you ultra-high popularity ratings, and in return you throw a temper tantrum as if anything less than infinity % is not good enough. I give poor Hamidm a 0% rating, and he takes it like a man. This is how we tell the difference between boys and men.

#478, don't try to confuse people with your BS, there is a vast difference between historical "fact" analysis and your nonsense about poster masadi. We know you follow US agenda and are placed here to post Rush Limbaughesque nonsense, people like you are responsible for every single Pakistan who dies every single minute of the day due to poverty and want. You should indeed be ashamed of yourself and your miserable lifestyle that is made possible only by sucking on the blood of the people of Pakistan. A special place in hell is reserved for the lowest of the low among humanity and yours is impatiently waiting for you.

#477 while we are at it:

Who did the most good for Pakistan, and indeed the entire Universe:

Mr. Masadi: 3,500,999,876%
Mr. Hamidm: 0 %

#473 blog polls are unscientific, their sample is non representative and the results easily manipulatable, it says nothing.

Here are the real results of historical "fact" analysis

Those who REALLY harmed Pakistan

The military 100%
Civilians 0%


Who made Pakistan

Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto 100%
Military dictators 0%


Who dismembered Pakistan

Military dictators 100%
Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto 0%

http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/2009/08/21/the-most-destructive-of-pakistans-l eaders/

ATP Poll: Who Did the Most Harm to Pakistan?

Ayub Khan
12%
Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto
10%
Zia ul Haq
42%
Benazir Bhutto
5%
Nawaz Sharif
9%
Pervez Musharraf
21%
http://pakistaniat.com/2009/08/17/atp-poll-leaders/

Poll: Who Did the Most Good for Pakistan?
Ayub Khan
15%
Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto
36%
Zia ul Haq
2%
Benazir Bhutto
14%
Nawaz Sharif
7%
Pervez Musharraf23%

http://pakistaniat.com/2009/07/26/leaders-pakistan/

The popular All Things Pakistan blog is running a poll this week asking readers a single question: which leader did the most harm to the country in the past 60 years, not counting the current administration which came into office only this year after elections in February.
Quick results : General Zia-ul-Haq, the military dictator who turned Pakistan into a frontline state against the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan, comes out as the leader who’s done the most damage to the country with 42 percent of those polled picking him. Zulfiqar Bhutto, with 10 percent blaming him most for the country’s ills. A month ago, All Things Pakistan conducted another poll, this time asking readers : Who did the most good?. Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto topped that poll with 36 percent support followed by Musharraf at 23 percent.
http://pakistaniat.com/category/atp-poll/

The only reason tahmed is against Z. Ali Bhutto is becuase he infused the socialist spirit among the common people, told his white masters to go to hell and further he bothered the power structure so much that the thugs like Pagara had to conspire with the Americans to murder him, an international conspiracy of enormous proportions against Pakistan whose effects we suffer from till today. The Himalayas wept when the ZAB was murdered and we still mourn his loss....

zee (#455),

Who knows - but as you pointed out, perhaps it was the chairman’s anti-PPP views, combined with his big mouth, that got him sacked.


tahmed sahib, greetings!

Your superhero who will deliver democracy is …(drum roll) … Nawaz Shariff!! There is a certain definition of insanity that applies to you.

Recently you asked Riaz Worldwide to name the dictator who can save Pakistan. Now when it is your turn to name your hero, you name Nawaz. Hello, is anyone home? You are stuck in denial and should read #451 again.

PS: Feel free to bicker and moan if you find it therapeutic; otherwise have a good weekend.

Re: # 469
You cannot become a 5 rupee JI member. You stay a sympathiser for a long time until the inner coterie admits you in.

Khyber #467: You are right in wishing for inner party democracy in PMLN (and in all other parties, I assume - since even the JI does not come close to the kind of inner party democracy that is demonstrated in the US primaries, e.g.). You are also entitled to your personal likes and dislikes wrt political figures and to vote on that basis if you like. For myself, I would vote for Rasputin himself if I thought he was the one most likely of the lot to move the nation a little closer towards the rule of law and economic progress.

Re: # 467
Khyber sahib
Your post was not addressed to me but I thought we share our frustation while we wait for a reply from Tahmed sahib. This two term limit is already in place. You could campaign that politicians do not remove it while deleting those dictatorial ammendments from constitution. This is one way to bring the second tier to the front. Sons and daughters of politicians must compete to become leaders.

#462 Posted by tahmed32...I understand what you are saying and respect your opinion but my point is that nation is getting tired of this music chair for the last 63 years and now its time for the new generation to lead the nation,Nawaz had his chance twice and there are well educated and sincere people in PML(N)who should have their chance,if politicians are sincere with the country they should have elections in their parties and let the new generation to come forward,jaamt-i-islami is the only party with democracy in their ranks but I am sure we don't want them in power.
Pakistani political parties never developed into viable institutions capable of generating leadership. There are talented emerging politicians in some political parties of Pakistan but they stand no chance of occupying their party top slots. In this elitist political system of Pakistan, party office is a lifetime prerogative passed from father to son. None of them is willing to make way for fresh leadership to emerge. There are deep structural and constitutional problems within Pakistani politics. The Election Commission must introduce the requirement of a verifiable, free and secret ballot for the top slots within Pakistani political parties as a precondition to contesting general elections. This will rid us of stagnating lifetime party leaderships, giving a larger number of Pakistanis a chance to serve the public and pave the way for a better class of politicians to emerge. Its really amazing to observe political developments and politicians in Pakistan, it seems like Pakistani politicians does not have any agenda for the welfare of their voters. I don’t see anyone talking and discussing how to solve crisis like loadshedding, clean water to all citizens, health benefits for people, education etc.. Pakistan can never be a true democratic nation, unless the illiteracy is reduced, the judiciary is clean, bureaucracy is defeated and every Pakistani from cities, rural areas develops the political acumen.
The representatives of the people need to pass certain tests of eligibility. Character, ability, a sense of responsibility and experience are necessary ingredients of that eligibility, but in Pakistani Politics we don’t see that, Typical Pakistani politicians thinks this following way. 1. They consider themselves higher than their institutions. 2. They believe - or at least that is what they claim - that only they can save the country. 3. Only they know what is right for their parties and for the country. 4. They make “temporary” compromises for their own personal interest. 5. They try to maintain a vacuum of leadership so that the party is identified with them - and no-one else. Where is the discussion about the higher education in Pakistan? How are the top notch scientists, engineers and doctors going to be trained? When will govt start pouring funds into these fields?This is part of democracy as we see here in the States.

Re: # 463
Zardari comes from a modest upbringing compared to Bhuttos. He started showing some understanding of politics in jail.

Re: # 462
Well said Tahmed Saheb. You pointed at a real demon. Every difference of opinion is taken beyond a civil discourse into hostility. Within a democratic set-up, members of a family learn to live with contradicting political choices.

sorry - not ZAB. I meant Zardari, in #463 below.

Rashid Sahib #461 "Bhutto/Zardari could turn out like Pagara if they do not engage in party building along progressive lines. "

At least pagara is funny as in humorous. ZAB (despite his cheshire cat smile) and the latest model Bhutto seem to be funny as in strange.

Khyber: You may not want Nawaz Sharif to lead the country and that is fine. You should cast your vote for whoever you think is the best of the lot. If I was to cast my vote today, it would be for PMLN though. And if he screws up - there will be the checks and balances - opposition, free press - to make sure he stays within reason (unlike the insanity that Musharraf was inflicting on the nation). And even if we vote for different candidates, we can both still be friends and consider both of us to be patriotic Pakistanis.

That is the joy of democracy.

Re: # 460
Khyber
Congress has similar hang-ups on party leadership. As Nehru's ideas run out of fashion in India, congress will have to adapt to democracy within party. Similarly, exploiting the Bhutto face will not keep the throne in the family. Bhutto/Zardari could turn out like Pagara if they do not engage in party building along progressive lines.

Re: # 459..well said..the problem is political parties in pakistan don't have democracy in their own ranks,new generation and new faces should come out and lead the nation.

There are leaders in PPP and PMLN in their second tier. Karachiites do not like the punjabi nationalism displayed by Sharifs. I had a chance to ask questions of a bearded PMLN lawyer and I was impressed by his answers. Ishaq Dar is another gentleman who has a good comprehension of Pakistan's economy and finance. 2nd. tier leaders of PPP were leaving them because Mr. Zardari behaved like a spoiled wadera, but I hear he has made ammends. ANP leaders specially Afrasyab stands out among Pakistani leaders for his cool demeanour. I remember Ghous Bux Bizenjo as the most humble of all West Pakistani politicians.

Re: # 457tahmed32..Good Morn....I agree as you said,'' The future of Pakistan depends heavily on events that have been taking place the past 2 years. Much has been accomplished. But the struggle is not complete.''Pakistan is a Country of talented people,we can't have convicted criminals NAWAZ,SHABAZ,ZARDARI to run this country,if thats the case then Pak's next prime minister should be Shumaila Anjum Rana.

Khyber #451 You make a persuasive case, being based on facts rather than emotions, for the contributions made by ZAB to Pakistan. (btw you forgot to mention his most signal contribution to Pakistan - i.e. by pushing ahead with the nuclearization project that made Pakistan's defenses impregnable vis-a-vis India). I would add that his destructive actions that I related earlier (no land reforms, destruction of the banking sector, his key role in getting into the totally unnecessary 1965 war, pandering to the maulvis particularly wrt Ahmedis being declared kafirs) are equally valid.

However, the stakes today are much higher in retrospective evaluations of a dead man. The future of Pakistan depends heavily on events that have been taking place the past 2 years. Much has been accomplished. But the struggle is not complete.

Today, we have Zardari (aided by his leecher lawyer) continuing his efforts to subvert the independent judiciary and to crush (as in case of his attempted disenfranchisement of the entire panjab province a few months ago) or co-opt (as in case of his pious offers to "share" the government with opposition parties, thus effectively eliminating any opposition!) the opposition.
The only group that has broad political support that is standing in his way is PMLN and Nawaz Sharif. So - to quote Deng Xiao Ping again - it doesnt matter if the Nawaz Sharif cat is black or white or good intentioned or evil intentioned. What matters is that he has been catching the rats.

Rashid Sahib #450 True. As the prophet supposedly said, go even to China in search of education. The Chinese themselves learnt from the US - which a century ago had the family farms of the kind the Chinese introduced in the 1970's that you mention.

#449 sattar2,

Just commenting on the following part of your post:

"You should be careful putting too much faith in Gilani sacking chief of Pak. Steel Mill. It’s politics as usual."

There might be truth in this. I think Gilani killed two birds with one stone - and corruption was NOT one of those two. One was appearing to heed to media making a noise, and the other was getting rid of an anti-PPP official.

At the inaugration of the Zorlu Wind Energy project by Gilani, I happened to be sitting next to the Chairman Pakistan Steel (now defunct) on the same table and got into a conversation. I was surprised at how a senior beaurocrat like him was badmouthing Zardari to a complete stranger!

Conspiracy against ZAB

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZcmb0KsKRo

The creation of B'Desh was part of a colonial conspiracy between the Americans playing both sides, the Pakistan Army and their CIA asset Mujib. Were it not for ZAB, Pakistan would not have survived. Leaders like that deserve our gratitude not the BS that people here are talking about, ingrates the whole lot of them....

Agantuk your wailing and crying and reproducing graphic imagery from sources who are not objective i.e Army sources blaming the civilians- they do that all the time but we know who was in charge, have no doubt about it. There are many political prisoners at a given time but few who can shake the corridors of power and bring down a dictator. ZAB did that not Mujeeb. Further when your leader said that he has pursued a policy of "forgive and forget" you lose all rigts to then pursue- get that in your thick head. Your leader didn't want any trials. Finally regarding elections, when a nation has a big political divide as there was in the East and West, you disenfranchise people by handing over power in an "all or none" fashion, and in order to contest elections you get disqualified if your purpose is to break up the country (the six point plan)- where a seperate armed force for the East, separate currency for the east, foreign exchange reserves for the east and so on were demanded, you also get disqualified if you hobnob with the declared enemy to dismember the nation.

Don't bring up the case of no trials and rapes and massacres unless you are ready to renounce your leader (who was a partner in the killings btw with the Pakistan Army) since he already forgave and forgot that is what he told Kissinger when he went there with a begging bowl, and he also told Kissinger the key to deceiving your ignorant fools who supported him even when there was 40% inflation- and Kissinger took a grand interest in this deceptive strategy that he told him to take 15 minutes of his time with FORD to discuss this in order to subvert democracy and deceive the people and make them forget their grievances.

Don't quote BS out of books like a third grader, put 2 and 2 together if you have any semblance of knowledge......

Re: # 423tahmed32.......you asked me if i deny the positive role Nawaz sharif played in past two years in supporting the CJ movement ,Tahmed you are a smart guy and I am sure its not rocket science for you to figure out Nawaz Sharif intentions,Sharif brothers were talking about revolution in Pakistan, but its really funny to hear this great word, "revolution'' from Mr Nawaz Sharif. Obviously what Nawaz promises the nation, is not a revolution but merely a regime-change to his liking. Nawaz talks about NRO but he forgets about his agreement with dictator Musharraf, he talks about judiciary but forgets his attack on Supreme Court, he talks about media but forgets what he did to Rehmat Shah Afridi of Frontier Post, Jang Group and others, he forgets what he did to Junejo. He talks about democracy but he forgot it while making forward bloc. Where was his revolution when Nawaz spent his time at Surror Palace in Jeddah and then in England and poor Pakistanis were selling kids and kidneys? Sharif was indicted for criminal charges, and was allowed to go without facing the them. Now he is back, but he did not face his criminal indictments. Mr Shahbaz Sharif and Mian Nawaz Sharif both are convicted criminals, in a unconstitutional deal with the military dictator General Pervez Musharaf.
I am not saying that Z A BHUTTO was an Angel but lets admit he did alot of things for people,I don't support Zardari but ZAB'S story is different.
ZAB opened the doors for Pakistani labour to work in the Arab Gulf states, thus alleviating unemployment and providing the base for foreign remittances. when cruel dictator Zia was going to kill him, Z.A Bhutto could sign few papers and could live in exile but he was a real man, he was not a coward. He too could have made a deal and lived to fight another day; but only great men with principles sacrifice their life for their cause. Bhutto pushed politics out of the posh drawing rooms into real Pakistan-into the muddy lanes and villages of the poor. ZAB was a principled friend to the poor, downtrodden and oppressed. He was fearless in his beliefs and refused to bow before any man or power other than the Almighty. ZAB’S contributions to an impregnable Pakistan are seen in the Kamra Aeronautical factory, Heavy Mechanical Complex at Taxila, modernisation of Karachi Shipyard, creation of precision engineering works, Pakistan Steel Mills, Port Qasim, Pakistan Automobile Corporation to name a few. By signing the Simla Accord of 1972 he negotiated longest peace between India and Pakistan. His social reforms laid the foundation of an egalitarian society, his non-aligned foreign policy earned Pakistan respect in the comity of nations. He lifted the nation drowning in a sea of despair to Himalayan heights.
Bhutto's inspiring leadership filled Pakistanis with hope, energy and strength. There was a sense of purpose and direction in the country in pursuit of peace and prosperity. The economic growth rate increased and money poured in from expatriates who got the universal right to passport. So that is the real big difference between NAWAZ DA LUHAR AND Z A BHUTTO....

Re: # 445
Tahmed sahib
Land reforms in China, mentioned in interact #439 were implemented in late 70s. These reforms were successful in achieving growth in output and economy. Other Chinese reforms that followed in other sectors were inspired by the success of land reforms. Land reforms in Pakistan must not be a witch-hunt against productive farms and farmers. Proponents of land reforms aim to increase the agriculture output, reduce rural poverty and empower rural women. They identify sharecropping and tenancy as the specific area where agriculture output is low.

tahmed, here you go again, with the usual bickering. I made some general comments in #447; didn’t mean to offend you.

Instead of charity posts, try writing intelligent posts. You have written several of the former, but hardly any of the latter. Mathematics of it all does not add up in your favor.

In other words, note that charity begins at home :-)

#447 Your lucky day has arrived. Here is my charity post (admittedly after only about a half-dozen unsolicited posts from you - but I can see the painstaking effort you put into each post, complete with bold subheads, and for that I believe you must be given extra credit).

You write " try to avoid the usual bickering."
I barely read your unsolicited posts, much less discuss and even less bicker, having told you a long time ago that I have no interest in exchanging posts with you. In fact this last sentence is all I have read of this post.

Cheers then, till the next charity post. Now get down and give me another unsolicited post.

tahmed,

Your blind support for democracy borders on dangerous fanaticism. Coming from you “democracy” is an empty, mindless slogan, devoid of much thought or deliberation.

The example of Iraq sufficiently illustrates the point (btw, in #384 you forgot to include Iraq as a shining example of democracy!): When no WMD threat, or WMD program, or 9/11 connection, or “harboring terrorists” was uncovered, Iraq invasion was justified on basis of “spreading democracy”. For you that alone is enough to justify invading a country.

You fell for the war propaganda by the most powerful democracy in the world ... something you are in denial of even today. This underscores your dangerous fanaticism when it comes to slogans of democracy.

Moving on …

Someone here asked your opinion on Nawaz Shariff, but you shied away. Fact is that not too long ago you suggested that … Nawaz Shariff has made his money honestly by setting up industrial units, while Zardari has stolen his money.

If you believe what you suggested about Nawaz Shariff, you have a lot to learn. Apparently you are not above personalities and party politics.

Finally …

As we have seen in Pakistan, every party in power abuses its power … and the opposition claims the moral high-ground. Every few years the tables turn, and the same drama unfolds. So I’d be careful putting too much stock in what PML-N is saying today. Of course, you may pretend it is all democracy in action … but you’d be fooling yourself.

BTW, Gilani is stepping back from Mushy’s trial on treason. You should be careful putting too much faith in Gilani sacking chief of Pak. Steel Mill. It’s politics as usual. Calling it democracy trivializes democracy … so try to cut back on empty slogans.

+++

My comments are harsh but reflect some uncomfortable truths for you. You should think things over with a cool head, and try to avoid the usual bickering.

#418 ellora,

Please read carefully before jumping into arguements, I was talking about 1971 war when Pak army was executing its master plan to annihilate bengalis and US Govt was supporting Pak army. At that time , Soviet army was not in Afganistan, are you saying 1971 war was a US plan to invade Afganistan?

#444 True. The examples quoted by Rashid Sahib in #439 and what I wrote about "de-communization" by Deng Xiao Ping was post-Mao. In fact it was the massive famine (tens of millions died of starvation) of China in the 1950's (carefully hidden by the ideologues) that was indicative of the failure of Maoism.

The people who quote the Chinese example, need to know Mao also shut down the country to the outside world for 50 years, put everyone in the same uniform, and put them to work for subsistence alone. All at the same time.

Regards: You make an excellent point (and I had pointed out earlier to the success of land reforms in east Panjab in India).

I also noted below that we need to break the back of local power groups in rural Pakistan (landlords in sind, tribal sardars in Baluchistan, arabs/mullahs in Fata) as essential to progress, another point you make.

All I am now saying is not to become bound to any ideology. Thus, if someone is engaged in progressive farming, is not using his economic power to oppress the peasant, then clearly it would be foolish not to take this into account and not toss the cat that catches mice out with the bathwater (to screw up metaphors).

#440 Your point illustrates the futility of any ideology - thus, if I had made an "ideology" out of land reforms, that ideology would lose the over-all goal, which is economic betterment for every Pakistani. I e.g. know of an "absentee landlord" sitting not just in Islamabad but in the US who actually google earth's his landholdings in Pakistan, and who has a "green thumb" - gave us some of the best tasting vegetables which he grew himself in his backyard. And has been experimenting with introducing new plant varieties from the US in Pakistan, visiting it every few months. I would be the last person to speak out against such progressive people.

The important thing is the over-all goal. And to not blindly follow any ideology. As the Chinese reformer Deng Xao Ping said - it doesnt matter if the cat is black or white as long as it catches mice.

It is this practical approach that led to the emergence of family farms in China in the early 1970's as a first step towards broader "de-communization" of China that Rashid sahib correctly points to in #439 below. And that is what I have been saying below wrt family farms that propelled the US to become an agricultural giant in the late 19th century.

Hi, I do not agree with what zeemax and tahmed are saying. I come from a small village in india and have seen the wonders, land ceiling has done over the years. Infact land exploitation by small farmers is much more efficient and ecological than by any zamindars. This argument of 'starving' etc is certainly a propaganda and gives credence to what Masadi says.

If anything land ceiling and redistribution, gives much more confidence to landless farm workers when they become owners of small holdings. They start planning futur rather than staying resigned to hand-to-mouth dole-outs. Start sending children to schools and supporting long term investment in education. There are ofcourse suicides etc also of those who did not have enough experience and went over board in borrowing to quick growth. But in my village, the literacy rate among chamars and other SC/ST has shot up. Hardly any child is not at school and many are pursuing excellent careers after higher education.

Rural poor is driving the democracy also. Their participation is over 80% and very effective too. Politicians of their own ilk who have tried to misuse office, like Mayawati- CM of Uttar Pradesh, was quickly chastized in the next elections. Most of the present generation corrupt politicians come from this low income milieu but this phenomena of last 2-3 decades is receding as rural voter votes now less and less along caste or religious lines. Mayawati, lalu Prasad, Mulayam Singh, etc.. there are multiple cases where lower castes politicians made money but had to improve their governance to be still counted because they derive their power from the elections only.

Democracy can not give quickly visible rewards as a benevolent dictatorship will do but it ensures that social escalator is continuously working. Just getting rich and being well fed is not sufficient. It is more important to feel happy and confident that you can choose the way you wish to live. Muslim societies could not sustain democracy as call for "Unity among muslims" has been always a predominant factor. Even in muslim minority countries, it created cleavages along religious lines as such Muslim unity calls made muslims subject to community pressure (of mullahs and politicians) rather than decide themselves what they thought right.

#438 tahmed32,

... i think we are saying the same thing then.

Perhaps we are, but terminology is important. If we mean to eradicate absentee landlords, we should say that, and not rail against all Zimindars in general. That sends out the wrong signals.

For example, the Kachelo farm of the late Rafi Kachelo (Anwar Ritol Mangoes) spread over thousands of acres is a model of efficiency of corporate farming. He wasn't an absentee.

China had introduced some reforms in the agriculture sector which saw increased growth. Below is an excerpt from an article referring to the reform:

"..certainly the most important feature of the reforms has been the household responsibility system, in which collective land was assigned to households for up to fifteen years and local governments took the strong initiative of transferring production decisions and profits from communes to households. Agricultural reforms became the cornerstone of the reforms in the entire economy providing the basis for reform of the industrial structure. Increased rural household incomes increased demand and markets in rural areas, while increased rural savings and investments took advantage of the greater profitability of rural industry."

#437 i think we are saying the same thing then. but no plan that does not call for breaking the back of these local power groups i mentioned is going to work. that would be the acid test for any plan.

#435 tahmed32,

Exactly. It is 'planning' when we talk about 'thought through program'.

"... to break the back of landlordism ..." is throwing the baby alongwith the bath water.

Millions survive on large land holdings in Pakistan. If these were broken up in small pieces, they'll all starve, as well as shortages/famines.

A good starting point is 'Absente Landlords'. That should be prohibited. Anyone who does not manage the holdings himself, should be taxed heavily.

#434 tahmed32,

This wasn't particularly directed to you. ALL who speak against feudalism/large zimindar etc etc are resorting to little more than soundbytes. They don't have any valid argument.

Applies to your argument too sir.

and how is what i wrote a "planning issue"? the only thing we need to plan for is to break the back of landlordism/sardars/mullahs whereever they rear their regressive heads in pakistan.

and i am not calling for blind land reforms - i am calling for thought through program that creates incentives for rural populations to stay their (rather than flock to cities) and labor on their farms. but no reforms in rural areas are possible as long as "big guns" (whether waderas, or tribal sardars, or arab invaders and their appointees) decide what is the law there.

#433 you asked me for reasons i oppose landlords in pakistan. i gave them to you. you had no answer, so you started putting me doing ("sound bytes", "railing"). The chowk form of discussion lives on!!

have a good day.

... railing against feaudals/large land holdings is like throwing the baby out with the bath water. It will kill whatever little agriculture we have left.

#428 tahmed32,

So then would it be correct to say it's a planning issue, rather than a feudalism/large-land-holdings issue?

#427 and if you are unaware the misery caused by landlords (complete with private jails), or of absentee landlordism, then you have no business talking about the rule of law in pakistan.

hamidm2 and other pakistani moslems...
ha ha ha....
http://www.newsweek.com/id/212155


We have to arrange a visit by Swami Ramdev with a big shipment of his Ayurvedic products...
The Basil leave based Ayrvedic products are very effective against any kind of Flu, specialy for H1N1.....

#427 i am prepared to discuss anything - as long as you stick to talking substance, not try to play the label game ("sound bytes") as a substitute.

#426 no doubt large corporations have bought out family farms in the US and it now has large landholdings. But these farms have been possible due to vast employment opportunities created in the service sector of the US, whereby farm labor is less than 1% of the US population today (and mostly illegal immigrants). In Pakistan, otoh, there are no such service sector alternatives. Nor are the absentee landlords of Pakistan demonstrated themselves to be the efficient producers as US corporations. And even in the US the emergence of "corporate farming" has created other problems of its own, resulting in calls for a return to small farming - read "The Omnivore's Dilemma" on these problems (high chemical use e.g.). Michelle Obama is leading these efforts by starting a vegetable patch in the White House itself.

... did it block their progress?

tahmed32, I recall someone said you talk in terms of soundbytes. That appears to be true.

#425 tahmed32,

And what do you think the average land holding size is in the agricultural sectors of the great agri nations like USA and Australia?

#424 large landholdings means powerful landowners, who in turn block progress.

The US and Argentina and other Latin countries were at par economically in the early 19th century (Sau Paulo was the Paris of the new world) - US grew on the basis of family farms, while Latin America stagnated due to "hacienda economies" of large landholdings. Similarly, East Panjab moved ahead of West Panjab during green revolution of the 1970s due to land reforms that set ceiling at 6 hectares.

tahmed32,

What do you have against large land holdings? Isn't this an agricultural country?

I support large land holdings (feudals if you may). There can be no yield optimization through mechanization or corporate farming on a few acres each.

If you're against it, pls give your reasons.

Khyber: What dont you agree with in 409? e.g., do you think I am wrong in saying that ZAB talked socialism, but his socialism stopped when it came to land reforms (i.e. things affecting his own property)? At least one adviser of ZAB who called for reforms left when he failed to convince ZAB to introduce land reforms.

What is the point of comparing NS? Of course NS was on his way to becoming a civilian dictator in 1999 - but do you deny the positive role he has played past two years in supporting the CJ movement and in blocking the Zardari-Musharraf attempt at replacing a one man dictatorship with a two-man dictatorship?

#409 Posted by tahmed32...I hate to say that I don't agree what you mentioned,but I would like to ask you,''how do you judge NAWAZ SHARIF compare to ZAB?

Riaz sahib #411 you write "Since when have you or the feudal leaders have arrogated unto themselves the right to speak for 160 m Pakistanis?"

by calling for a dictatorship in Pakistan, you speak for no one but yourself and for this individual is you have in mind to be the dictator.

by calling for a democracy, I speak for the tens of millions of Pakistanis eligible to vote who participated in the elections.

Its that simple.

btw: dont try to smear me personally by lumping me with "landlords". By calling for democracy (and indeed emphasizing basic rights) I am for breaking the back of landlordism in Pakistan. By calling for dictatorship, you are promoting the cause of landlords - the typical henchmen of dictators, starting with ZAB.

#412 hamidm: of course zardari is another crook (by treating his own words as meaningless - e.g. on the restoration of the CJ issue).

Trouble is you think calling me a "bhola" makes you a "syaana" - when you have demonstrated a total inability to think beyond the level of a "pind di buddi" (i.e. personalities, not political systems) despite patient attempts at educating you on this account.

hamid,

thanks to zab, you finally broke your cherry.you really oughta count your blessings..

During the whole episode of the bloody war, US GOVT gave full support to Pakistan, supplied arms, they even sent their seventh fleet and now Mujib is CIA agent?

Of course. Isnt it obvious ? What are you - a stooge of imperialist global power structures ? All this was part of the US's plan to invade Afghanistan.

Hamid,

What's wrong with Zaradari having that much money? Are you jealous?

During the whole episode of the bloody war, US GOVT gave full support to Pakistan, supplied arms, they even sent their seventh fleet and now Mujib is CIA agent? I heard that Mujib and bengalis are all RAW agents as India trained the muktibahini, now India and USA were on two different sides, Mujib was a double agent or what? Be careful while spreading propaganda that are condradictory and does not make sense.

#388,supermasadi

"There would have been no elections were it not for ZAB challenging the power structure."

so the election was ZAB's gift for us? I thought its part of democratic rules to have elctions. Mujib spent so many years in jail for his fight against Ayub Khan, now election is ZAB's gift?

"Winning the elections does not mean you declare unilateral autonomy, it does not mean you side with the country's proclaimed enemy and seek dismemberment."

Winning the election means winning party will go to power, Instead Mujib had to sit in negotiation table and he was on discussion table till 24th March. Independence of Bangladesh was proclaimed after Pak army attacked and started to kill indiscriminately.

"at the very least he was a damn fool not to recognize how the Army would react. ZAB did not direct the military, the military did not take orders from a civilian. Your statement that operatioon searchlight was directed by ZAB is BS."

WOW, SO it was Mujib's failure that he could not predict the genocide and 'underestimated' pak army. Bengalis are peaceloving people addicted to music and poetry, how can a bengali think of a large scale massacre ?

In the book " EAST PAKISTAN: THE END GAME" ,Brig Siddiqi ( Yahia's PR officer during the war) clearly mentioned that On February 1971, Yahia Khan and few other army officers visited ZAB's ancestral home and operation search light was planned there. It was ZAB who refused to accept Mujib as the PM of Pakistan, It was ZAB who said " If any one goes to Dhaka to attend national assembly, I would break their legs".

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well, tie me down and beat me with a big stick! ..... here is what wiki says about opur man zardari:

"Asif Ali Zardari (Urdu, Sindhi: آصف علی زرداری) (born 26 July 1955) is the 11th and current President of Pakistan and the Co-Chairman of the Pakistan Peoples Party (PPP). Zardari is the widower of Benazir Bhutto, who twice served as Prime Minister of Pakistan. When his wife was assassinated in December 2007, he became the leader of the Pakistan People's Party. He is considered to be among the five richest men in Pakistan with an estimated net worth of US$1.8 billion (2005)"

...... my question: how the heck did he accumulate almost 2 billion dollars ! ........ does donald trump know about this?

Re: # 409

tahmed,

... bholay shah ....if zab was a scoundrel, what about zardari and his eunuch gilani?

Re: # 399
Since when have you or the feudal leaders have arrogated unto themselves the right to speak for 160 m Pakistanis? The parties you suport ( PML and PPP) got about the same number or fewer votes in total than the paties that supported Mush in the last elections.

It is you who is out of touch with the miserable reality of life for the avg Pakistani since Mush was forced out to be replaced by the most corrupt man in the history of Pakistan.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

and one of our family friends actually gave this scoundrel bhutto refuge in their house in Lahore when Ayub's goons chased him with (according to what ZAB told them) the intent to kill him. but that is another story, children. now it is bedtime.

#405 i agree on ZAB - he deserved to be hanged for wrecking Pakistan. starting with the 1965 war, then destroying the economy, then raised false hopes of "roti, kapra, makan" among the poor while making sure his socialism stopped where his personal property (in lands) began, and then raised the expectations of the mullahs by kow-towing to them. THe list goes on - it is almost as long as the list for Zia and Musharraf and Ayub. May they all rot in hell. Amen.

Riaz sahib/Hamidm: I leave you two "white state-of-mind guys for musharraf" at the tender mercies of Mr. SuperMasadi. May the Lord have mercy on your souls. For you know not what you speak of. Amen.

Riaz sahib/Hamidm: I leave you two "white state-of-mind guys for musharraf" at the tender mercies of Mr. SuperMasadi. May the Lord have mercy on your souls. For you know not what you speak of. Amen.

and now wait for his pointless rebuttal, ad hominem and hiding behind his mama's skirt proclaiming I insulted him.
No economist worth the name can reply to the argument produced in #403 let alone a code coolie, what the HDI shows is the current global system and its winners and losers, if you want to keep that current structure intact and remain subordinate forever opt for Riaz's short term growth and long term pain and misery formula, if you want to dismantle that structure opt for taking what is your right, having a say in what in effect determines your living and dying....

Re: # 398

masadi mian,

.... all i know is that thanks to bhutto i had to leave the uet campus for a week and had tro rely on my christian friends to get a drink ...... the man was as spineless as our own obama ...... he was a eunuch and deserved to hang ...

Hamidm: Musharraf again nodded his head. He says his state of mind is like a white paper - all blank.

Riaz writes "I am sorry if you fail to see the connection between human dev, industrialization and democracy.
Just take a look at HDI ranking list and you'll realize that India stands out as an exception"

The world profile that shows failed democracies as far as human developement goes also shows foreign meddling in making democracies fail, it also shows that the "most developed" in the list proclaim democratic ideals (even though they don't practice them)and are the most industrialized (bringing to naught Riaz's argument), and it also shows that the world system that is making democracy fail is also reproducing human misery on the scale never before seen in human history. so if you want to repeat human misery you will opt for keeping the current profile of the HDI and the world system that projects it intact. If you want change you will try to dismantle that perverted system and the lopsided results it produces for the poor countries and give your public a voice in their affairs- something that those in charge of maintaining the current status quo fear mortally- this is what this dictator supporter Riaz Haq wants to hide from you, and now wait for him pointless rebuttal, ad hominem and hiding behind his mama's skirt proclaiming I insulted him.

Re: # 397

tahmed mian,

... you keep on forgetting - "white" is a state of mind!

hamidm: Musharraf just nodded his head at Madame Tassaud's in agreement with your post. Remind that fool to stand perfectly still otherwise he'll get hauled in by Thanedar Allah Ditta for violating Article 6. And Thanedar sahib doesnt simply had out "gora certificates" (aka speeding tickets) either.

Re: # 395

tahmed mian.

.... you are a fuzzy old fool (i say that affectionately) ...... riaz sahib is right - pakistan is not ready for democracy yet ..... you should see our 'politicians' on geo and ary to understand what i mean!

........... by the way, what do you think about the situation in baluchistan? ...

Riaz sahib: Musharraf thought the same thing as you. When last seen, he was trying to stand perfectly still in Madame Tassaud's in London in order to avoid being sent back to face the music in Pakistan. So - you are welcome to your beliefs in the inferiority of the Pakistani people - 160 million Pakistanis beg to differ with you.

#393, hamidm as far as I am concerned you are a spineless creature who doesn't have a clue about the politics of subordinate nations and as your post amply reveals you think with your gut and d___ and therefore should not be trusted in managing the affairs of a lavatory let alone a country. ZAB battled a thousand demons let loose by the Shaitan and its messenger Kissinger and as you have acknowledged in the past quoting your nani, he put the sense of self worth in the ordinary Pakistani individual.

hamidm #385: I didnt realize you had to be white to have democracy. The things one learns on chowk!!

Re: # 395
I am sorry if you fail to see the connection between human dev, industrialization and democracy.
Just take a look at HDI ranking list and you'll realize that India stands out as an exception. So will Pakistan with the kind of democracy you want; a democracy that will not raise the level of the people to make it comparable to other non-sothasian democracies.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

#387 Riaz sahib: that doesnt answer any of the questions I raised. You are merely doing more of the same meaningless talk of India having a low HDI. So, anyway....lets talk of something else. Seen any movies lately?

tahmed mian,

..... on second thought - i think we do have a fair chance at democracy with richard holbrooke as the new viceroy ! ..... maybe, just maybe, he can beat some sense into his native wards ...... his support for the musharraf's nazim systrem might persuade mr asif bhutto to leave it alone! .........

Re: # 389

masadi mian,

..... as far as i am concerned, zab was a spineless creature who was responsible for the shameless islamization of pakistan - zia was just following in his footsteps ...........

.... and this is a very personal matter for me ..... during the anti-ahmedi riots of the early seventies i was forced to leave the campus and live with a day scholar friend in lahore cantt for a week ........... and even though i got to enoy air conditioning, parathas for breakfast, and the conjugal (!!) services of a seventeen year old maid, i still hold bhutto responsible ..... and no, i am not an ahmedi inspite of the rumors started by your jamaati brethren ...

.... more importantly, bhutto was responsible for shutting down the liquor shops and the end of modern civilization in pakistan ........

Here read this peon of the West Mujib talking to Kissinger:

http://history.state.gov/historicaldocuments/frus1969-76ve08/d36

36. Memorandum of Conversation, New York, September 30, 1974, 10:30 a.m. 11. Source: National Archives, RG 59, Central Foreign Policy Files. Confidential; Exdis. It was drafted by Constable and approved in S on October 15. Kissinger was in New York for the UN General Assembly.
New York, September 30, 1974, 10:30 a.m.

DEPARTMENT OF STATE

Memorandum of Conversation

DATE: September 30, 1974

TIME: 10:30 a.m.

SUBJECT:
Secretary Kissinger Calls on Bangladesh Prime Minister, Sheikh Mujibur Rahman
Bangladesh:

Prime Minister Sheikh Mujibur Rahman

Foreign Minister KAMAL HOSSAIN

Ambassador HOSSAIN ALI

U.S.:

The Secretary

Alfred L. Atherton, Jr., Assistant Secretary, NEA

Mr. ROBERT OAKLEY, NSC

Mr. Peter D. Constable, NEA/PAB (Notetaker)

DISTRIBUTION: S; S/S; WH (General Scowcroft)

The Secretary called on the Bangladesh Prime Minister, Sheikh Mujibur Rahman at the latter's suite in the Waldorf Towers. Photographers took pictures while the Secretary and Prime Minister greeted each other.

THE SECRETARY: I am very pleased to meet you and to welcome you to the United States. I am very much looking forward to my visit next month to Dacca.

THE PRIME MINISTER: I am also looking forward to your visit. Please accept my regrets for the unfortunate illness of Mrs. Ford.

THE SECRETARY: It is a great pleasure to see you here. In 1970 when Yahya Khan was here for the UN, he explained to me why the elections in Pakistan would be well manipulated. He said there were 20 parties in East Pakistan. There would be no majority party and Yahya would therefore have an excellent opportunity to maneuver to control the situation. Then of course you achieved your spectacular majority, with 167 out of 169 seats in East Pakistan. Ever since then I have never believed political predictions, unless of course you make them.

PRIME MINISTER: I gave my prediction before the election at a press conference in Dacca. I was asked if I would get 90% of the votes. I said I would get 97%. Of course I have contested so many elections that I knew better than Yahya. I understood his ideas and plans to maneuver—

THE SECRETARY: There would have been no elections if he had known how it would turn out. The last time I saw Yahya was on the way to China—the trip which he arranged for me. He gave a dinner for me and said at the table, “People call me a dictator.” He asked everyone: “Am I a dictator?” Everyone said “No.” Then he asked me, and I said: “I do not know, but for a dictator, you run a lousy election.”

PRIME MINISTER: Would you like something to drink?

THE SECRETARY: I would like some tea.

PRIME MINISTER: I am glad. I produce tea also. [Tea and coffee were served.]

THE SECRETARY: As you know we are committed to the well-being of Bangladesh. Within our capacity we will do all we can to help you. Without meddling in Bangladesh's internal affairs, I want you to know that we believe you are the best guarantee for stability in your country, and we want to do what we can to help you.

PRIME MINISTER: Thank you. That is very kind of you. After I got out of jail, we faced such big problems. Then you gave us massive help and we avoided famine.

THE SECRETARY: We will do what we can. We have committed 150,000 tons of foodgrains to Bangladesh in the first quarter of this fiscal year. We are trying to get approval for another 100,000 tons in this quarter, by the time you meet the President. I know that doesn't meet your total needs, but we have had a disappointing corn crop and that has put a strain on our wheat supplies.

PRIME MINISTER: Our problem is to try to recover and to be self-sufficient in food. We have made some progress. Our deficit of 3 million tons of rice is down to 2 million tons. We had no government when I got out of jail. We had nothing.

THE SECRETARY: Everything came from West Pakistan.

PRIME MINISTER: At the end of the struggle we had nothing. No money, no resources.

THE SECRETARY: When did you return? In January 1972?

PRIME MINISTER: Yes. When I returned everyone was armed and we had problems with that. Now we have a government. I have followed a policy of “forgive and forget” after coming out of jail.

THE SECRETARY: We very much appreciated the trilateral agreements you have worked out with India and Pakistan. You have been very statesmanlike.

PRIME MINISTER: This caused me some unpopularity because of the massacres that took place among intellectuals. I could give you names that you would recognize.

THE SECRETARY: The Bengalees are a rebellious lot. There were a number of Bengalees at Harvard when your Foreign Minister was a student of mine there.

FOREIGN MINISTER: Yes there were a number of Bengalees including Mr. Murshed.

THE SECRETARY: Is he all right?

FOREIGN MINISTER: Yes.

PRIME MINISTER: The Pakistani General, Farman Ali Khan, wrote on his scratch pad, and we found it, “The green land of East Pakistan must be painted red.” I told Bhutto about this when he came to Dacca. I showed it to him. I said to him, “Do something from your side.” There are 67,000 non-Bengalee families living in Bangladesh who have opted for Pakistan. They don't want them back. We don't want them. They are in camps. We can't feed them. We have no assets. I've done my duty. I'm the victim of genocide. Why can't the Pakistanis show generosity?

THE SECRETARY: We strongly favor normalization of relations between Pakistan and Bangladesh. Our aim in the area will be to use any influence we have to promote normalization. I have the impression that it's a question of domestic politics in Pakistan. Is there anything concrete you want me to do?

PRIME MINISTER: I have taken the liabilities. Why can't I have the assets? We received no gold, no planes, no ships. I have 75 million people. I have returned the prisoners of war to Pakistan. I could have held back 4,000 prisoners for bargaining. But I did not want to do that. I want good relations in South Asia. Bangladesh is a small country.

THE SECRETARY: With 75 million people Bangladesh is not a small country.

PRIME MINISTER: We are small in territory. In the first two or three months of independence we rebuilt the roads and the bridges, we opened government institutions, we approved a constitution. Our senior civil servants were detained for two years in Pakistan. I have resources in Bangladesh —fertile land, many people, gas, coal and livestock. And we hope to find oil.

THE SECRETARY: Is there coal in Bangladesh? Have you found oil?

PRIME MINISTER: We have signed agreements with an American company for oil exploration and received bonus payments for the agreements.

THE SECRETARY When you have the oil, perhaps we will borrow from you.

PRIME MINISTER: You won't need to borrow. We will repay you for all you have done for us. We need a MARSHALL Plan in Bangladesh. We need foreign investment in fertilizer plants and in petrochemicals. We have natural gas and we can sell it. Flood control is a very serious problem. During the Pakistan days there was a mission to survey flood control in 1955 and 1956. During the British days they had dredges to clear out the rivers so that they could carry goods to Calcutta. After World War II when the British withdrew, there was no more dredging. The Government of Pakistan buried the survey report and went ahead with the Indus Basin Project in West Pakistan. They did nothing in Bangladesh, and now we are suffering the consequences. We had no way to save our cattle, our foodgrains, poultry and vegetables from the flood. We can find a solution between us. You organized the MARSHALL Plan for Germany's recovery. Now you can start a Kissinger Plan for Bangladesh.

THE SECRETARY: If I can get my name on a plan, I will do just about anything.

PRIME MINISTER: You have had such good success in Vietnam and the Middle East. You can have success in Bangladesh. There are famine conditions in my country.

THE SECRETARY: The domestic situation in this country is much less favorable than it was at the time of the MARSHALL Plan. In fact, the domestic situation is unfavorable. Candidly, I must say that that sort of program is not likely. On the other hand we are joining the Bangladesh Consortium. We favor the most rapid development possible for your country. In 1971 our dispute with India was related to our China policy. We supported the independence of Bangladesh by peaceful methods. We will do the maximum that we can, but you should not have exalted expectations. We will be extremely active in the Consortium. Your problems will receive special attention. The fact that I am going to Dacca means that I will give them special attention.

FOREIGN MINISTER: Our problem is that we need a margin of time….

THE SECRETARY: It is the curse of bureaucracies that they only do enough to avoid crises but not enough to solve the underlying problems. I personally favor taking big steps. We will have to look again at your problems. I will meet with Mr. McNamara and we will see what we can do. Will you meet with him?

PRIME MINISTER: Yes, in Washington. He has been kind enough to see me.

FOREIGN MINISTER: We need 3 or 4 years' margin to work on long term development.

THE SECRETARY: Can you become self-sufficient?

FOREIGN MINISTER: Yes, in 3 or 4 years.

THE SECRETARY: We are looking for another 100,000 tons in this current quarter.

MR. ATHERTON: And without prejudice for the rest of the year. We will be considering what additional foodgrain we can provide.

FOREIGN MINISTER: We need vegetable oil, fertilizer and project aid for the development of all our resources to increase exports so that we can get out of the current situation. We have no political problems. We are still winning by-elections in spite of our 40% inflation rate.

THE SECRETARY: Take about 15 minutes in your meeting with the President to advise him on how you do this.

PRIME MINISTER: I set up 4,300 Union Councils in Bangladesh. I have to provide a free kitchen in every Union Council.

THE SECRETARY: Do you travel a lot?

PRIME MINISTER: Yes, I try to mobilize the people to be self-sufficient, so that the country can be self-sufficient.

THE SECRETARY: How are your relations with India?

PRIME MINISTER: Very good. We have a foreign policy that is neutral, non-aligned and independent. We have good relations with India, USA, USSR and Burma. We are very anxious for good relations with China.

THE SECRETARY: We are improving our relations with India.

PRIME MINISTER: We welcome that. We have a Friendship Treaty with India and a Commission on River Control. I want to convey to you my assurances of our good relations. When I came out of jail, there was anti-US sentiment in Bangladesh. Now all my people are extremely friendly to the US.

THE SECRETARY: You showed great wisdom when you came out of jail. There must have been a great temptation to demagoguery and to deal harshly with Pakistan and the US. We have always had great sympathy for the Bengalees. It is a natural friendship on our side.

PRIME MINISTER: Yes. Your long-standing interest is greatly appreciated.

THE SECRETARY: You have a special place in the hearts of Americans. On food for example, we are making a special effort.

PRIME MINISTER: I am grateful for what you are doing today and for the massive food help you have provided.

THE SECRETARY: You went to the UK and then back to Bangladesh. Did you take over the government immediately?

PRIME MINISTER: Yes. It was very difficult. Everyone was armed and that created a serious problem. I appealed for everyone to surrender their arms. 150,000 arms were surrendered to me. The Pakistanis had armed everyone. The Pakistan military asked permission to arm civilians. We have documents that show the Pakistan Army asked permission to arm civilians at the end.

THE SECRETARY: How about the Chinese? Are they doing anything subversive in your country? Do you have relations yet?

PRIME MINISTER: Not yet. We know each other. I went to Peking in 1958 and they came to Dacca in 1962. I want friendship with China but we have our self-respect. I can offer friendship but the initiative has to come from them also. We appreciate the US support for Bangladesh in the UN. You steadily supported us there from the first day.

THE SECRETARY: My impression is that China will start to move in the next year to normalize its relations with you. They are concerned about India, but they do not have anything against Bangladesh. They will move slowly. Yours is the right policy: friendship with all the Big Powers and avoid all their quarrels. We certainly don't object to your good relations with the Soviet Union.

PRIME MINISTER: Thank you. You've done wonderful things over the last two years.

THE SECRETARY: It is easy to conduct relations for an established country, but your Foreign Minister has had to conduct relations for a new country—to start from nothing. That is much more difficult. Were you released together?

PRIME MINISTER: Yes. After they released me, I asked them why they forgot my friend. I asked them to release him because he was my Foreign Affairs Adviser.

THE SECRETARY: Were you treated badly?

PRIME MINISTER: They kept me in solitary confinement. The conditions were bad. It was 117 degrees.

FOREIGN MINISTER: I was a little cooler because I was in the NWFP.

PRIME MINISTER: The case they made against me was a farce.

THE SECRETARY : We exerted very great pressure.

PRIME MINISTER: Yes. I know you did. They tried to kill me on the night of the 16th. The officer-in-charge took me out and hid me for five days near the Chashma Barrage. They planned to say that there had been a revolt of the prisoners and the prisoners had killed me. They tried to kill me three times: in 1958, when Martial Law came, they arrested me; in 1966 they arrested me on a conspiracy charge; in 1971 they arrested me and tried to kill me. I am living on extensions.

THE SECRETARY: You have six more lives to live. They say that cats have nine lives. But you have made a great achievement. You have created a new state. You will find that the President will be very sympathetic in your talks tomorrow. We have our own difficulties with Congressional limits on aid and with our own food shortages, but we will make a special effort. I look forward to seeing you again in Bangladesh at the end of the month.

PRIME MINISTER: I have this special problem with these people who do not want to remain in Bangladesh. I have to do something. Should I expel them like Idi Amin did?

THE SECRETARY: You mean the Biharis?

PRIME MINISTER: Yes.

THE SECRETARY: Pakistan won't take them? We will take these questions up when we are there. You can explain this in more detail.

PRIME MINISTER: I have nothing in my hand to bargain with. I have taken risks. They killed professors, intellectuals, journalists just before the surrender. I have to explain this to my people. I never go back on my word, but this time I did. I said that they would be tried on Bangladesh soil. There has been no trial.

THE SECRETARY: It was a very humane and statesmanlike act to forego trials, so that you could work for a long-term relationship. I will take this up.

NOTE: As the Prime Minister and the Secretary left the Prime Minister's suite Bangladesh reporters asked for comments on the meeting. The Secretary said that he and the Prime Minister had a very warm and friendly discussion. They had discussed the economic development and the well-being of Bangladesh. They had discussed ways in which the US might help with immediate problems and with long-term development. The Prime Minister stated that they had a warm and friendly discussion. He was glad to hear the Secretary's views on Bangladesh and expressions of concern for Bangladesh. The Prime Minister said the Secretary understood Bangladesh's problems and will try to do his best for Bangladesh. He noted that US-Bangladesh relations are very good and will grow stronger.

Both participants made similar comments to American newspapermen who questioned them subsequently. The Secretary was asked whether he had set a date for his visit to South Asia. The Secretary said he hoped to have something on that later this week.

Questioned about the Washington Post story that morning on the relationship between Bangladesh's sale of jute bags to Cuba and the signing of a PL 480 agreement, the Prime Minister brushed it aside, and the Secretary said the subject did not come up in their discussion.

Good redflag my posts to help chowkstaff censor me baselessly, what else are you dictator supporters gonna do? You don't have the brains to match my arguments, censorship is your best bet.

Re: # 389masadi why u get mad ?

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agantuk writes "What is your source of information that Mujib was a CIA agent? Mujib won the election, Bhutto and Yahia led army refused to handover power because bengalis were considered as a threat to the power structure composed of army and landlords"

Let me tell you something your presumptious ___. There would have been no elections were it not for ZAB challenging the power structure. Winning the elections does not mean you declare unilateral autonomy, it does not mean you side with the country's proclaimed enemy and seek dismemberment. If that person you talk about was interested in a non constitutional settlement to the elections then idhar hum udhar tum was proposed by ZAB otherwise with no representation in the West what Mujeeb was doing was precisely what India wanted, precisely what the US wanted (as is evident by how they handled the situation in the UN) and that was a slaying of democracy by the Pakistan Army and a wasting of the entire effort by ZAB and not Mujeeb to bring democracy to the land, that is why he was a CIA agent and had a hand in the killings that occurred, at the very least he was a damn fool not to recognize how the Army would react. ZAB did not direct the military, the military did not take orders from a civilian. Your statement that operatioon searchlight was directed by ZAB is BS. Mujeeb was backed by the CIA and India, he was a goddamned traitor to the nation who now when you think about it should have been disqualified from holding any office in Pakistan.

Re: # 384
Do you know that political scientists see India as an exception among democracies?
The reason is that no other democracy in the world is so low on HDI as India.
Pakistan, being even lower than India, will become another exception for the same reason.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

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Re: # 384

tahmed mian,

.... i think it is you who is trivializing democracy - there are different kinds of democracies for different kinds of people ..... pakis are basically a herd of illiterate and ignorant sheep who need a firm hand to guide them ...... they need somone like mahatir of malysia or turkey's generals to put them on the right path (not sirat ul mustaqeem), otherwise you will always have the anarchy that prevails today .......

.......i know you and i both think that we are white and civilized and ready for democracy, but we are not ....... the british left too soon and we are still struggling with wearing pants and fixing a decent martini ..

Riaz sahib: What is this about "different kinds of democracies" and the "Indian kind" being the only one that is possible in Pakistan? This is simply confusing the issue with vague references that are neither here nor there. What is so different with respect to things like the rule of law, basic rights??

Do people in Europe or in the US or in India or in Japan or in Brazil or South Africa or Australia or indeed any democracy in the world today have basic rights to freedom of speech, religion, habeas corpus, vote that you would deny to the people of Pakistan?

Does someone in Pakistan have the right to consider himself above the law, whereas democracies in other countries consider no one to be above the law??

And you refuse to answer my simple question of who you have in mind as dictator - Musharraf, Mullah Omar or Yourself - and claim I am trivializing the discussion and that I am supposed to know from some writings of yours who it is you mean?!! What kind of nonsense is this!!

It is you who is trivializing the discussion by making vague claims that are neither here nor there and by refusing to be specific on anything.

Re: # 377...well said.......its better to act like educated people and respect other's opinion.
Mwaqar
http://pukhtunkhwatimes.blogspot.com/
http://thepathans.blogspot.com/
http ://twitter.com/mwaqar09

Re: # 379

Malikrashid:

I am aware of this thinking. Such a scenario only creates a notional "dada" on world's Main Street. What is missing from this scenario, and as we can see now, is that unipolar order is inherently unstable. In current situation it can look stable only as long as others (Europeans, Chinese, Russians to count) tolerate.

Rise and Fall of Empires by Paul Kennedy, outlines this instability very well, and gives causes that make impossible to perpetuate.

Iraq war is an example, quite akin to Auranzeb's expansion into South India, which weakened the power. By the time the world emerges out of the financial disaster (in part caused by financing of Iraq war and GWOT), Chinese would consolidate their positions too. However, attractive, Columbia professor's proposition may sound for unipolar top, but it cannot last long. History attests it.

Re: # 374
In the world today, engaging with your enemy should not mean war. Autonomous democratic regimes in South America group together to share resources and negotiate deals over their resources with the corporate world. Anti-imperialist war has acquired different shape than it had 20 years ago.

Mr. Bhutto made all efforts to save his killer army, no war criminal was put on trial, actually got their reward for getting rid of bengalis and finally Mr. Bhutto got his perfect reward from the army.

Re: # 372
Anil
Here is an excerpt from an article "Remaking of a unipolar world" by Robert Jervis, a professor at Columbia University:

Positioned at the top of the hierarchy, the hegemon should want to maintain and solidify it. Even though it may have to pay a disproportionate share of the costs, including heavy UN dues and a high defense budget, such burdens
are difficult to shirk and represent a small price to pay for the international order that provides the hegemon with so many benefits. Other states may appear to get a better deal by prospering within the international system
without having to pay the high price; western Europe, for example, can free ride on U.S. efforts in many spheres while still complaining about U.S. dominance. Yet, enormous U.S. power brings unprecedented benefits, ranging from the key role of the U.S. dollar in world finance to the centrality of the English language throughout the world to Washington’s ability to block most political initiatives that would bring it harm.

Re: # 374

Supermasadi ji:

The followin question cannot be beyond your payscale, or is it?

Please answer it.

"....malikrashid you are true to your spirits of a religious zealot...."

And what about you?

Re: # 366

Masadi,
Please learn to stick to the issues and respond with cogent arguments and data rather than engage solely in attacking people.

Your virulent and ad hominym attacks on all Chowk interactors you disagree with, often followed by your abusive private messages as I have been receiving from you, are a clear indication of your lack of descency as a human being and your total moral and intellectual bankruptcy as an advocate for whatever causes you spouse.

My sincere advice to you is reflect upon your atrocious personal behavior, and try to make improvements in your advocacy which will help you and attract people to your point of view and your causes rather than drive them away.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

I wonder when the pakistani people would learn to face the truth?
#366 supermasadi,
What is your source of information that Mujib was a CIA agent? Mujib won the election, Bhutto and Yahia led army refused to handover power because bengalis were considered as a threat to the power structure composed of army and landlords. Operation Searchlight was planned and launched with Bhutto's approval.It was Bhutto who refused to follow democratic rules and fully supported the massacre so that he can go to power. Stop blaming Mujib for winning the election and not selling us off to become the slaves of punjabis.

than the bipolar world of the Cold War

malikrashid, your implication was that this "unipolar world" is much less domineering on the third world than the bipolar world where of the Cold a(even though there was no bipolarity, the US dominated affairs post ww2). That is misinformation par excellence and you do imply whatever I said in that post, search your conscience.

Anil, stay away from my posts they are above your "intellectual" pay scale.

Have a nice day,

Re: # 369
This reminds me of US President General Grant, widely believed to be a drunkard and a womanizer, who said, "It has been my experience that folks who have no vices have very few virtues."

Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 370

Malikrashid:

Iraq war was the end of unipolar world. In the new world order, economy (market, capital and manpower) and not politics will decide. Not that China will do any better, it will support its own despotics (a la Sudan). Why can it do it, because of its economic prowess.

Re: # 367

Supermasadi ji:

"....malikrashid you are true to your spirits of a religious zealot...."

And what about you?

You have dream of solving today's problems with 7th century dreams, and refuse to call groupings of over billion people as giants in their own right. Contradictions, Masadi ji.

Your point about India-Pakistan is something I share with you. Some improvement in you.

Re: # 367
I called it a uni-polar world. Never said that America does not dominate global affairs, neither did I say the rest of what you quoted me as saying. I tried to point to the fact that the cold-war is over. There is a new reality that subjects people of the developing world to find non-combative, democratic political pursuit.

The new face of Taliban in Pakistan:
Below is an excerpt from an article from Pakistan Daily. The writer is commenting on "Whether worst form of democracy is still better than dictatorship"

"Till such time the nation attains over 70% literacy rate and find a leader like Quaid-e-Azam, what we need is an authoritative but incorruptible and selfless military dictator imbued with sincerity of purpose assisted by a small team of carefully selected God fearing highly competent technocrats. Criteria for their selection should be on the basis of honesty, integrity, piety, and high reputation with no blemish in their past conduct and their proficiency in the assigned job. Judiciary under chief justice Iftikhar should be made completely independent and all black sheep within it as well as within legal fraternity weeded out. Besides, robust accountability cell under a hardnosed and morally upright man of character should be created.

The proposed set up should first cleanse govt and semi-govt departments, media and educational institutes of corrupt, morally depraved elements and then rinse the society from criminal elements, quislings and anti-social elements by awarding them exemplary punishments. Feudalism and absentee landlordism should be crushed with an iron hand and frugal and austere living should replace ostentation, pomp and show. Widening gap between rich and poor should be abridged and sense of nationalism and patriotism inculcated among the youth. The team should then earnestly work towards improving moral and education standards and setting up a welfare state under real democracy. Alternatively Islamic system of governance and laws should be introduced to set right the moral compass of the society and remove the cobwebs of immorality, obscenity and vulgarity and restore the pristine virtues of Islam. Having tried out numerous systems, there is no harm giving a trial run to Islamic system of governance. brig (R) Asif Haroon Raja"

Instead of the tribal Taliban it is the friends of Taliban in Pakistan establishment who would like to take over by appealing in the name of Quaid-e-Azam and Islam. They cannot win election so a heart-wrenching appeal for revolution is made but their intention sounds close to the Taliban/Zia-ul-Haq rule.

Let me declare to you all military and dictator supporters. India is not our enemy, the enemy is the United States' elite, they are the enemy of humanity. This BS where the gnats think they are giants and fight each other is an imperialst game to keep both in check and to ensure that you and your families either die or live miserable lives. People who inflame Pakistan India enmity are stooges of the imperialists, they are enemies of their own people and the people of the world. They will be eliminated once people develop morally and attain consciousness...

malikrashid you are true to your spirits of a religious zealot, be it of the athiestic faith when you claim that imperialism is a thing of the past and that America is not dominant over global affairs- there can be no greater misleading of our people than this claim that they themselves are responsible for their misery or that Islam is, both are nonsense claims mastered by the imperialists themselves...

RiazHaq the habitual liar is lying again in #364. Bangladesh seperation happened when Pakistan was under military rule, the conditions created, the messup of the political process, the non reasonableness as well as not waiting for a constitutional settlement was accomplished by the military and the CIA thug Mujeeb, and the humanitarian crisis was the fault of both, the slaughter in bangladesh is equally partnered by the military and Mujeeb with both being directed by the USA.

ZAB was the scapegoat in the process and even then he managed to rise out of it and save what remained of Pakistan- and kept his independence by strength of his personality alone in the security council and elsewhere.

This thug blames the civilians for Pakistan's conditions and calls all attempts to show him the REAL HISTORY of Pakistan, a history where the military has had free run of the nation and its instititions and not the civilians as "revisionist". He is an agenda driven CIA implant, plain and simple. They have constructed a site the ONLY site where educated people from Pakistan can debate political issues and that also for the purpose of obfuscation of the real issues and populated it with these trolls like RiazHaq who is here 24/7 making a gazillion posts, you know how because RiazHaq is probably three people working shifts....

Have a nice day,

Re: # 363
From my own personal knowledge and experience, India is the only nation among "democracies" that has any semblance of similarity to Pakistan in terms poverty, illiteracy, disease, culture of corruption/incompetence, intolerance and backwardness of its human resources etc. Therefore, the only kind of democracy that is possible in Pakistan is the one you see in India.

Pakistan's elite are enamored with what they see in Bollywood flicks that show India in the best possible light. There have been very few films like "Slumdog Millionaire" that accurately portray the poverty, hunger, disease, lack of sanitation, horrible living conditions, inhumanity, torture and beggary shown in this Danny Boyle feature that was heavily criticized by prominent Indians incluiding Amitabh Bachan.

I have personally experienced in my conversations with people in Pakiistan how grossly misinformed they are about the life of an average Indian. Pakistan's own media do a very poor job of providing reliable news about India, relying instead on western sources which show India in the best possible light because it is the "world's largest democracy" above the usual criticisms reserved for China and other "totalitarian" or "authoritarian" regimes.

As to your question about who (a proper noun) should rule Pakistan, you are attemting to trivialize what I have been saying by asking this question. You know my answer and you need to read what I write more carefully to comprehend it.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 361
What you offer is revisionist history based on your own personal biases. Here are the facts of history:

1. Civilian politicians, both in and out of power, have done far more damage to Pakistan than any military dictator, including Zia who was the worst of them. ZAB is primarily responsible for breaking Pakistan because of his own lust for power. The responsibility shared by others in East-West split is only secondary.

2. The continuing failure of Pak's politicians (with the exception of Jinnah and Liaquat) and their endemic corruption, selfishness and incompetence has made it possible for the military to be cheered as Pak's saviors by the majority repeatedly. From my point view, tolerating the fanatic and self-serving Zia was the only serious mistake that Pakistanis have made when it comes to their acquisence to military dictators.

3. As I have already shared the data, the average and poor Pakistanis have fared much better under military rule than under civilian democratic rule. That's primarily why an average Pakistan is still better off in terms of hunger, poverty, basic sanitation, rich-poor gap and average std of living than their Indian counterparts.

Over the decades, Pakistani economy has consistently performed better and created a lot more jobs during military rule than under the PPP or the PML "democratic" governments. These new jobs have helped tens of millions in the rural areas with the option to leave the life of slavery on the farms to get jobs in cities in the industrial and services sectors of the economy.

Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

#360 Riaz sahib: what makes you think Pakistanis are merely emulating Indian democracy? There are 120+ countries, most of whom have learnt in their own hard way the falsehood underlying dictatorship and opted for democracy. China - the last major dictatorship left - is hardly a paradise of satisfied population (ask uighurs, tibetans, or any of the tens of millions of educated han chinese who are opposed to the iron hand of an "inner group").

Also, you never answered my earlier question - do you have any particular individual in mind you think can do a better job than the democratic government in addressing issues facing Pakistan? Is it Musharraf? Mullah Umar? Yourself? By your silence I can only assume you have no answer to this simple question, and as such are not being simply dishonest in pretending to be thinking in the broader interest of Paksitan.

Re: # 360

Riaz sahib:

"..more successful models offere by China and East Asia should give us all pause to reflect.."

The above are the only lines in your post. The rest of the lines (more than 2/3rd of your post) are devoted on India bashing.

Sadly you still cannot see the point Tahmed and Hamidm sahibs are making. You need to get over your infatuations about India's problems, only then you can objectively discuss Pakistan's challenges.

Re: # 360
Common Pakistanis have experienced military dictatorship for 33 years. Pakistan was divided into two and subsequent military dictatorships kept pushing the country to the brink. Those who advocate military dictatorship over democracy citing necessicity of revolution should explain the failing of previous dictators towards any revolutionary accomplishment in the country.

Re: # 356
Pakistani liberal elite's penchant for emulating Indian democracy
which has miserably failed to serve the vast majority of it's people rather than the more successful models offere by China and East Asia should give us all pause to reflect on our misguided persuit of 'democracy' in Pakistan. Therefore it's important for Pakistanis who are grossly misinformed about India's 'accompishments' to be warned about what they wishing for is not
all it's cracked up to be.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

#351: We are not like indians on chowk, and are more interested in our own problems (Riaz sahib being one of the few exceptions who proves the rule).

No opinions on the Indian/Pakistani comparison. But I must object to this misuse of "the exception that proves the rule". This phrase has a specific meaning and Comrade Haq is not it.

#357 hamidm2 Mian,

Thanks.

15th amendment is another subject.

Following is the text of the Fifteenth Amendment Bill presented in and passed by the National Assembly on Friday, October 9, 1998.

Where does Nawaz Sharif try to become Amir-ul-Momineen in this?

CONSTITUTION (FIFTEENTH AMENDMENT) ACT, 1998
A bill further to amend the Constitution of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan:

WHEREAS sovereignty over the entire universe belongs to Almighty Allah alone and the authority which He has delegated to the State of Pakistan through its people for being exercised through their chosen representatives within the limits prescribed by Him is a sacred trust;

AND WHEREAS the Objectives Resolution has been made a substantive part of the Constitution;

AND WHEREAS Islam is the State religion of Pakistan and it is the obligation of the State to enable the Muslims of Pakistan, individually and collectively, to order their lives in accordance with the fundamental principles and basic concepts of Islam as set out in the Holy Quran and Sunnah;

AND WHEREAS Islam enjoins the establishment of a social order based on Islamic values, of prescribing what is right and forbidding what is wrong (amr bil ma'roof wa nahi anil munkar);

AND WHEREAS in order to achieve the aforesaid objective and goal, it is expedient further to amend the Constitution of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan;

1.
Short title and commencement

(1)
This Act may be called the Constitution (Fifteenth Amendment) Act, 1998.
(2)
It shall come into force at once.

2.
Addition of new Article 2B in the Constitution
In the Constitution of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan, hereinafter referred to as the said Constitution, after Article 2A, the following new Article shall be inserted, namely:-

"2B.
Supremacy of the Quran and Sunnah

(1)
The Holy Quran and Sunnah of the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him) shall be the supreme law of Pakistan.

Explanation:- In the application of this clause to the personal law of any Muslim sect, the expression "Quran and Sunnah" shall mean the Quran and Sunnah as interpreted by that sect.

(2)
The Federal Government shall be under an obligation to take steps to enforce the Shariah, to establish salat, to administer zakat, to promote amr bil ma'roof and nahi anil munkar (to prescribe what is right and to forbid what is wrong), to eradicate corruption at all levels and to provide substantial socio-economic justice, in accordance with the principles of Islam, as laid down in the Holy Quran and Sunnah.
(3)
Nothing contained in this Article shall affect the personal law, religious freedom, traditions or customs of non-Muslims and their status as citizens.
(4)
The provisions of this Article shall have effect notwithstanding anything contained in the Constitution, any law or judgement of any Court".

Re: # 349

zeemax,

... i admit i made a "booboo" but the fact remains that the pehalwan of gowalmandi tried to replace 58-2b with something even more dictatorial .............

Riaz sahib: You have to admit that compared to other Pakistanis you are an exception in terms of your repeated gibes at India's poverty etc. With the more pathetic cases among Indians (like arjun) no longer changing chowk into a cesspool with their "paki bashing", your talents are more appropriately put to use by focussing on Pakistan.

Re: # 352 Malikrashid

"...Jinnah was a nationalist and not a separationist (sic) as described earlier. ..."

Actually, Jinnah transformed to become a Muslim nationalist. He was not a separatist as it is generally understood.

The responsibility for Partition in varying degrees lies all around: Jinnah, Congress (Nehru/Patel, but not Azad/Gandhi/C Rajagopalachari/Khan Abdul Ghaffar Khan) and the British.

Short summary of responsibility as my reading of others as they see it (in order of decreasing responsibility):

a) Jinnah for advocating it strongly as a second option should other Constitutional frameworks for United India not succeed, not knowing that a communal formula would be so unacceptable to Congress that they would rather reject it in favor of Partition. Jinnah's position was electorally quite weak (even after the 1946 elections) and that is why he never defined what Pakistan fully meant because it would have likely resulted in erosion of support for the Muslim League in Punjab, Sind and Bengal. NWFP already had a Congress government. He was quite sure that Congress would succumb to his pressure, and that was one more reason for not fully defining Pakistan. He even maintained personal property in what became India (including his best house).

b) Nehru/Patel for accepting Partition rather than one of the other formulas that Jinnah proposed (and ones that he actually preferred over Partition in the manner that it came). Although, one can argue that they recognized Jinnah's weak position and decided to call his bluff and let him have his Pakistan. 1971 proved that Jinnah's Pakistan was untenable. India's progress since Partition and Pakistan's decline have partly vindicated their position

c) The British for failing to provide security in the aftermath of the Partition, for failing to stop the horrific loss of life and for the Subcontinent's holocaust.

"...Were Muslims wrongfully blamed and persecuted for dividing India? ..."

Yes and no. Yes, because Pakistan is so closely identified with the Muslim demand. No, because had the Partition formula been put to a popular vote (it never was), Punjab, Sind, NWFP and Bengal (all Muslim-majority provinces) would almost certainly have voted against it. Two of these provinces bore the worst brunt of Partition violence

Re: # 351
It's a misrepresentation of my views to say that I engage in "India bashing" to the exclusion of any discussion of Pakistani problems. Anyone who has read my blog and my interacts knows I am just as critical of Pakisatan failing its people through terribly bad governance as I am of India's failures.

Here's an example of what I wrote recently on the 62nd anniversary of independence for India and Pakistan:

Both India and Pakistan are paying a heavy price in the millions lives of lost the poor and hungry every year because of their misguided pursuit of democracy that has perpetuated the worst possible governance in South Asia for decades.

Chinese, on the other hand, have saved millions of lives each year since the revolution that occurred after India and Pakistan became independent. Other East Asians, particularly ASEAN nations of Indonesia, Malaysia and Singapore, have also pulled far ahead of India and Pakistan.

Malnutrition, hunger and disease claims over 2 million children’s lives each year in India.

About one-third of the world’s extremely poor people live in India. More than 450 million Indians exist on less than $1.25 a day, according to the World Bank. It also has a higher proportion of its population living on less than $2 per day than even sub-Saharan Africa. India has about 42% of the population living below the new international poverty line of $1.25 per day. The number of Indian poor also constitute 33% of the global poor, which is pegged at 1.4 billion people, according to a Times of India news report. More than 6 million of those desperately poor Indians live in Mumbai alone, representing about half the residents of the nation’s financial capital. They live in super-sized slums and improvised housing juxtaposed with the shining new skyscrapers that symbolize India’s resurgence. According to the World Bank and the UN Development Program (UNDP), 22% of Pakistan’s population is classified as poor.

According to Asia Children’s Rights report, about 8 million Pakistani children, or 40 percent of the total population of children under the age of 5, suffer from malnutrition. About 63 percent of children between 6 months and 3 years have stunted growth and 42 percent are anemic or underweight. Poor nutrition leaves these children vulnerable to diseases. Pakistan, along with India, is among the few countries of the world where Polio is still endemic. Poor conditions extend to the education sector as well. Over 23 million children in Pakistan have never been to school. The International Labor Organization data shows 3.3 million children, between the ages of 5 and 14 years in Pakistan, are forced to work rather than attend school. A quarter of a million of them work as domestic servants. The most recent United Nations Human Development Report indicates that the youth literacy rate in Pakistan is an abysmal 58 percent, among the lowest in the world. Sexual abuse is another problem. Homelessness of children is quite common. Over 10,000 children below the age of 15 live on the streets and sidewalks of Karachi alone. Many of them are forced to beg for survival. Most of these children say they left home because of domestic violence and family financial problems, according to Edhi Foundation which cares for some of them. According to a report by Amnesty International, there are more than 4,500 juvenile prisoners in Pakistani jails and 66 percent of them are being tried. Juvenile detainees are kept with adults, leaving them vulnerable to sexual and physical abuse.

I support a strong but benevolent dictator (not a saint, but relatively honest) in the mold of General Suharto or Mahathir or Lee Kuan Yu to rule Pakistan with an iron hand for at least 20 years to bring it out of the morass it is in. During this period, we must dismantle the feudal system, industrialize the country and create tens of millions of jobs, rapidly grow the economy, spend heavily on education and healthcare and prepare the ground for eventual democracy with a literate, healthy and autonomous electorate.

Where is such a person likely to come from in Pakistan’s context? Most likely the military. But it could also be civilian like Mahathir who has the support of the military.


Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 351 Tahmed

"...On second point, why are you so desirous of seeing Pakistanis engage in India Bashing?..."

You are right. I shouldn't be doing it. Only reason I give in to comic sarcasm is because it has all too often become the path of least resistance for Pakistani elites who resort to it to deflect attention from other pressing internal problems.

Jaswant Singh's book controversy prompts a few questions. Jinnah was a nationalist and not a separationist as described earlier. Who was responsible for partition? Were Muslims wrongfully blamed and persecuted for dividing India?

#350 agreed on first point - so let me restate: "This is freedom of thought, BJP style." On second point, why are you so desirous of seeing Pakistanis engage in India Bashing? We are not like indians on chowk, and are more interested in our own problems (Riaz sahib being one of the few exceptions who proves the rule).

Re: # 341 Tahmed

Actually, the BJP has made a fool of itself. And, 'BJP' is not 'India'. You apparently, did not quite get it, but thanks for taking my earlier advice to return to your Common Minimal Agenda: India bashing!

#343 hamidm2 Mian,

Why don't you just admit you made a booboo instead of trying to obfuscate?

#347..and the free press in a democratic pakistan got rid of the latest chairman yesterday as you know. you cant pick the calendar you like to make your flimsy arguments, aqalmand badshah.

Re: # 340

tahmed,

bnolay badshah! usman farooqi was the chairman of the pakistan steel mills who was also appointed by mr ten percent in his last reign .......... he stole billions and ended up in jail along with his wife and daughter.......he was released by the new government ...... sajjad hussain was the chairman who was going to testify against zardar but was assassinated before he could squeal .........

..... the pakistan steel mills is a shameless white eliephant which employs 30,000 people to produce barely one million tons of low grade steel ..... a similar mill run by arcelormittal wouldn't even have 3000 workers .....it is a net drain on the national exchequer and should have been privatized or sold for scrap a long time ago ...... a new chairman appointed by zardari simply means that they want to milk it a little bit more before it shuts down ....

#345 you need to get a new calendar cheema sahib. and give one to hamidm sahib as well. the year is 2009, not 1999.

Re: # 343; hamidm sahib

true ...he was about to replace one evil with another ... to declare himself 'khalifa' so his rule would never be challenged again!

who'd oppose the 'khalifa'? ... unless they wanted to die as the 'khwaarij'!

#343 once again..it is the political system, not political personalities that are relevant. it is heart-breaking to see you cooped up in the "personality box", harping about "sab chor nay pootar nain", like a "pind di buddhi".

Re: # 337

zeemax mian,

..... but didn't nawaz sharif want to bring in the 15th amendment which would have made him athe bsolute ruler and put and turn pakistan into a theocracy ?

#338 Khyber: True. The blasphemy laws are a nothing but the rotten remains of a dictator. While the dictator was kicked out thanks to that one inspiring example set on March 9 2007 by one man in refusing to rubber stamp Musharraf, there is no similar groundroots movement in Pakistan. The civil society, to its credit, has taken to the streets on the oppression of the christians - but without lawyers, political parties or even the media (littered with mullah propaganda) behind them, their ranks are too thin.

These stinking remains of dictatorship will either have to simply die a natural death (i.e. by being ignored like many other obsolete or degenerate laws) or else will require some misstep by the mullah whereby they use these laws against not just the weak and poor christians but against someone in the Pakistani establishment. Time will tell.

#339 Khyber: Its called "freedom of thought, Indian style".

hamidm: you know you dont have any point. so now you are reduced to issuing vague references to individuals to create a smokescreen in which to hide your puny defenses for dictatorship.

..............BREAKING NEWS................
BJP expels Jaswant Singh for praising Jinnah
Dawn.com
Mwaqar
http://pukhtunkhwatimes.blogspot.com/
http://thepathans.blogspot.com/
http ://twitter.com/mwaqar09

Re: # 333....... Nawaz Sharif, who has repeatedly talked about the Charter of Democracy, repealing Article 58 2 (B) and the trial of Gen Pervez Musharraf's for high treason, has not so far considered Zia's laws worthy for review. He even did not hold Gen Zia responsible for the social, constitutional and legal evil although Musharraf did exactly the same as Zia like enforcing emergency, bringing about a provisional constitution order and subjecting judges to take oath afresh. Now that bigoted 'mullahs' have mounted a fresh offensive against minorities, the government and all other conscientious segments of society must plead that all changes made by the Zia regime in the constitution and other laws, should be reviewed by experts and subsequently repealed for their inconsistency with the original 1973. Likewise, if Musharraf is made to stand trial for breaching Article 6 of the Constitution, the period of Gen Ziaul Haq must also be reviewed and judicial stricture passed against him as well.
Mwaqar
http://pukhtunkhwatimes.blogspot.com/
http://thepathans.blogspot.com/
http ://twitter.com/mwaqar09

333 hamidm2,

Wow! You are really more ignorant than I thought. Nawaz Sharif repealed 58-2(b) which was restored by mutarraf via 17th amendment.

Re: # 335
Ask a maulvi and he would interpret all events by 'allah ki marzi'. Asadi uses imperialism to a similar end. In a unipolar world all countries could potentially find Americans co-habiting their lands. A war might not be the answer. Cold war regimentation of nations does not exist anymore. Chinese communists invest in America for profits. Without US and IMF help, Pakistan could go bankrupt. I think education is good for both of us.

#334, there you go again, you want to get rid of the smaller thugs by siding with the imperialists and their "war" agenda, that has and will again see the end of Pakistan. Please get an education...

Re: # 331
Masadi
They are fighting a war against the salafis/religious extremists. This could be the time to press for freedom from the yoke of religious identity.

Re: # 330

khyber mian,

.... we all agree that zia, may his soul burn in hell, was the devil incarnate and did all sorts of evil things to the sheep that pass for the pakistani public ....... but since his happy demise we have had a couple of democratic governments run by benazir bhutto and the pehalwan of gowalmandi ....... why didn't they repeal 58-2b and the dreaded blasphemy section 295-C ???? .... what were they afraid of and what is stopping them now.... are they afraid of zia's ghost ?

hamid, ylh is less than honorable but I give you the benefit of the doubt that he might not be Rainbow09.

malikrashid writes "Sixty two years have given us a lesson if we would like to register it. A sunni majority state must be secular because the sunni religious rules/sharia disrupt the existence of a modern state..."

The lesson that your kind of religious zealots (of the athiestic faith) don't get is that any religion be it Sunni or Shia or whatever when it is made a basis of getting a state can never be exorcised from it or it will come haunt you and destroy you (as it did to ZAB). The simple reason for that is that when the mythology of the state/religion is constructed as was by the Allama Iqbal, the other thug together with Jinnah, it grants powers to the religious folk that can be exploited for political ends. If this misuse of religion is to stopped, it has to be done by inclusion, neutralization through inclusion not exclusion- this is the lesson you should learn from how ZAB was dealing with it, otherwise all your attempts at secularization and so on and so forth are doomed to fail. Get this in your thick skull, nobody else here will give you this wisdom.

Have a nice day

Zia’s decade of darkness

Whether it was the knotty Article 58-2(b), the much-exploited blasphemy laws or the promotion of a misogynous mindset, Pakistan and Pakistanis continue to be haunted by Zia’s dark decade. Ziaul Haq was a usurper. He overthrew an elected and arguably Pakistan’s most popular prime minister. As justification he cited danger of civil war as a possible consequence of an impasse in talks between the government and the opposition. This was a lie. It is now fully documented that by July 4, 1977, both protagonists — the PPP and the Pakistan National Alliance or PNA — had reached an agreement to be announced by the prime minister the next day. The general could not have been unaware of this development. His move was purely and simply a power-grab.
This then is Gen Ziaul Haq’s dark legacy. Lack of space does not permit a chronicle of his foreign policy failures. The roots of all major problems facing Pakistan today lie in Gen Zia’s dark era. To name only a few — the habitual interference of the armed forces in civilian affairs, weakening of state institutions, democracy deficit, rise of intolerance and militant extremism, sectarianism, problems of the Afghan refugees, drugs and the Kalashnikov culture and perennial constitutional problems. To roll all this back is the unenviable task of the present democratically elected government.DAWN.COM
Mwaqar
http://pukhtunkhwatimes.blogspot.com/
http://thepathans.blogspot.com/
http ://twitter.com/mwaqar09

Re: # 312
Dear Asadi
Sixty two years have given us a lesson if we would like to register it. A sunni majority state must be secular because the sunni religious rules/sharia disrupt the existence of a modern state. We did not have this realization half a century ago.
Respect. Peace.

Re: # 312
Supremeasadi
Welcome back. Liked the videos you posted specially the Mirpur song.

Re: # 325

masadi mian,

..... i think you are mistaken .... ylh is an honorable young man and, unlike you and i, he does not have the time to waste on this juvenile forum ...... he lives in lahore, so why don't you look him up and talk over a cup of tea and samosas .... i am sure ylh will buy

Re: # 323

tahmed,

..... you are avoiding the real question ...... who appointed usman farooqi - who is in a class by himelf with one other kleptomaniac - and who killed sajjad hussain ?

.... next we will compare psm to tata steel mills in jamshedpur ....

This YLH gangster posts as rainbow09 and at the same time sits on chowkstaff board banning masadi and then hurls insults and threats....this is the sorry state of this website...

#321 Intellectual "messing" is done with people who have half a brain not with retarded animals.

Have a nice day

#320 hamidm: and, genius man, the NRO was the product of a dictatorship. Thanks for illustrating my point.

yo sissy MASADI if u learn to shut ur mouth and respect other's views,they will not ban u......keep begging on ur web site for donations and keep moving from one state to another as u cant get along with normal people u psycho.

Re: # 319 masadi BAITAY U DONT KNOW WHO U R MESSING WITH.....

Re: # 315

tahmed,

..... you really are a bhola badshah! ...... do you remember usman farooqi? ...... he too was appointed by prince zardari and is now out of jail thanks to the nro ...... do you remember the name of the other chairman of the steel mills who was assassinated ? ..... who appointed him and who killed him?

i see that rainbow09 is roaming free after using the most vile language for masadi a few days back while masadi has been kept banned for posts that are not even a violation of chowk guidelines....

#313 supermasadi......OR SISSYMASADI ???

Mullah Fazlur Rehman has said in DIK that JUF favors repeal of 17th amendment. What a shameless hypocrisy and time serving? He is the same Fazlur Rehman, (the opposition leader in the NA at the time) who created a “Sharr” and cut a deal with Gen. Musharraf to allow 17th amendment for the sake of prolonging his rule. Had this amendment not taken place by the vital role played by Fazlur Rehman in allowing the amendment, this nation would have never faced the present day sufferings. Maulwi Fazlullah and his Taliban were also organized and encouraged under the patronage of MMA Govt. in the NWFP, which resulted in mass destruction, bloodshed and displacement of Swat people.
Mwaqar
http://pukhtunkhwatimes.blogspot.com/
http://thepathans.blogspot.com/
http ://twitter.com/mwaqar09

tahmed,

And another good thing about democracy is that we get to invade a country (oh, Iraq comes to mind) over fake excuses … only to later admit that we invaded the wrong country. Oops!

But of course, Iraqis who voted got to keep free pencils … and that ought to be good enough. Go democracy …

A good thing, when in the hands of a fool, can be dangerous. This sums up democracy and you.

hamidm #314: and here is a link to substantiate this another bad thing about democracy.

Chairman Pakistan Steel Mills sacked

ISLAMABAD - Prime Minister Syed Yousuf Raza Gilani Tuesday told the National Assembly that he had sacked Chairman Pakistan Steel Mills (PSM), Moeen Aftab Sheikh, in the backdrop of media reports about corruption in the institution.


http://www.nation.com.pk/pakistan-news-newspaper-daily-english-online/Poli tics/19-Aug-2009/Chairman-Pakistan-Steel-Mills-sacked

hamidm #309: another bad thing about democracy - Bara sahibs cant even make $2 billion steel mill without competitive bidding and with secret terms and conditions- without bad free press asking questions, causing governmnet to give the bara sahib the boot from his government corporation!!

PS: campfollower sattar. you are working hard to increase the number of unsolicited posts, and I have taken note of it. Once you have met your quota of unsolicited posts to me or about me, you will be rewarded with a charity post to you. So, keep plugging away...

Once again this person's athiesm comes out broad center of his arguments

malikrashid writes "Re: # 298
"No, religion made the state and it can never be taken out of the business of the state."

Is it that it can't be taken out or you do not want it out?
"

Once again this person's athiesm could out broad center of his arguments, that is the reason all his bs is antihuman because he is following a "faith" agenda, that of athiesm, such people like the religious bigots should never be tolerated as well wishers, they certainly are not.

My point was very clear: religion was used in order to get a state and cause seperation, when the state was got you cannot just detach it from its history and claim "relgion is no factor"- things don't and cannot work that way, people's psyches are not turned on and off by the turn of a switch. The first time a grand effort was made to turn the discussion from religion to everyday basic roti kapra issues were by ZAB and the imperialists used religion again, MAJs religious shenanigans to butcher the people's leader. There is no escaping the fact that Jinnah was a hypocrite and a user of religion for the purpose of political end, he ruined our future and the future of Indian Muslims not to mention the butchering in which he is a partner, when you destroy so many lives the least someone can say is "May God damn his soul"- and I will say that again and again...

Have a nice evening.

hamid writes "givethemhell mian,

...... then how do you explain the 26+ mosques in the detroit area? ..... and some of them are quite grand .."

Is that why everytime someone purchases a property to convert it into a mosque the local community raises hell they have to cross many hurdles and then end up voluntarily moving to areas that are neither popular nor well known like the famous Toledo mosque sitting outside town near an abandoned highway? The fact is that just like whites don't like staying close to blacks they don't want mosques in their neighbourhood as if they were some kind of plague. You can stay and worship in your mosque but as soon as you become active in the community in a non subordinate role you find out just how "free" the USA is...

You know better than to make an ignoramus post like the one you did

hamidm,

Leave it to tahmed to tell you what you want! Make-belief moral outrage is yet another thing he excels at. In any case I wouldn’t take him seriously …

… he’s been on honeymoon on a faraway island called “democracy” … and is not expected back anytime soon. Granted, everything looks sweet and tender during a honeymoon … but intelligent folks eventually come back to reality. It’s just that tahmed is not one of them …

hamidm: like i said, dictatorship is the government you would rather have. but you'll just have to cast your vote with the rest of us unwashed masses. and you'll just have to grumble about what the politicians have or havent done - just like people in every civilized country.

Re: # 305

tahmed mian,

.... last i heard the new 'elected' government hadn't repealed the 17th amendment and zardari remains the annointed khalifa ...... also the electricity supply has been reduced to seventh century levels and the imam of lal masjid is back delivering his fiery sermons to record crowds ....... meanwhile the lawyers are beating up policemen and other lawyers in the courts while the droopy-eyed cj is planning his next move to replace the khalifa ........... more importantly, did you know that army personnel are forbidden from wandering out of quetta cantonment?

Re: # 296

givethemhell mian,

...... then how do you explain the 26+ mosques in the detroit area? ..... and some of them are quite grand ..... they also have islamic schools, day care centers, summer camps and whatnot .... you can also get a day off from school for eid if you can figure out what day it is (like everywhere else, moslems in michigan have still not discovered the clock or the calendar)

Eye on Asia
South Korea Mourns Kim Dae Jung’s Death
Posted by: Moon Ihlwan on August 18

Former South Korean President Kim Dae Jung, who died on August 18 while being treated for pneumonia, epitomized three key values of the country in the past four decades: democracy, economic justice and reunification of the Korean peninsula. Winner of the 2000 Nobel Peace Prize, Kim is best remembered outside of Korea for his “Sunshine” engagement policy aimed at coaxing North Korea into joining the international community. But at home, it was his life-long fight against the military dictatorship and for democracy that elected him as the first president to be drawn from an opposition party in 1997.

Kim’s contribution to the economy isn’t small either. After taking over the country in the depth of the Asian financial crisis, he cleaned up corrupt practices of reckless overexpansion by the chaebol, family-controlled conglomerates, with easy money funneled by state-controlled banks. He also flung open the economy to foreign investors, while introducing accounting transparency and the basis of a welfare system for the poor.

Certainly he deserves respect for not giving up his conviction for freedom and reconciliation despite many ordeals. He survived a death sentence, torture and several assassination attempts, two exiles and a countless number of house arrests. And he never stopped speaking up against political oppression.

Kim, who died at 85, spent last years of his life in disappointment. Despite South Korean aid and goodwill gestures, North Korean leader Kim Jong Il never gave up his nuclear ambition. After he ended his term in 2003, Kim Dae Jung saw his two sons jailed for corruption. A parliamentary probe revealed that his government paid $500 million to North Korea shortly before his 2000 summit with Kim Jong Il. With the ailing North Korean leader bent on preparing for a succession of power to his son at all costs, it appears the reconciliation of the peninsula Kim Dae Jung hoped for won’t come true any time soon.

#288 hamidm: We WERE sliding back into the 7th century when we HAD 7th century-style rulers - i.e. those who came to power through bullets, not ballots. The style of government you would impose on Pakistan if you had your way.

This does not mean Hindi-Chini Bhai-Bhai the way Apana foolish and depthless Chikna said. They will consider us Bhai if we are stronger than them in all respects. India pulled China out of its dark ages by its spirituality (buddhism) and sciences. China will pull India out of its dark ages of last thousand years by making it compete with it. Otherwise we are doomed to become an Arabic or Catholicized land like papiland or Phillipines.

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Re: # 298
"No, religion made the state and it can never be taken out of the business of the state."

Is it that it can't be taken out or you do not want it out?

"He was a spineless human being on whose soul rests not only our misery but the misery of the Muslims of India due to the 'backlash' factor. May God damn his soul."

Get yourself out of misery young man and make it a secular, neighbor-friendly, peace-loving Pakistan.
Respect. Peace.

Drat...

http://www.uscirf.gov/index.php?option=com_content&task=view& id=1456&Itemid=59

A blank space got into the URL. It should really be:

http://www.uscirf.gov/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1 456&Itemid=59

#286: ..... the us commission on international religious freedom recently put india on its worst offenders list .... it is now at the same level as afghanistan and somalia .... why?

Those are good questions. But you are wrong about India being on the worst offenders list. India is on the 'watch list'. There is also a "Countries of particular concern" list which the USCIRF considers the 'worst offenders'. Check out who is on it.

http://www.uscirf.gov/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1 456&Itemid=59

Apparently bad as Afghanistan and Somalia are, others are worse (at least in the eyes of this USCIRF thing.)

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poster hamid writes "but let me hasten to add that the horrible hindoos are somewhat better than the pathetic pakis - at least on paper they do not discriminate between believers and non-believers...."

Don't hasten, most people who hasten to say things suffer from "foot in mouth" disease. Have you never heard the expression "actions speak louder than words"? The apartheid system created in India for Muslim is second to none in macro religion based discrimination anywhere in the world.

You have a good evening and weigh your words before you utter them, there are some things in this world that are "factually seen, observed and reproduced" from generation to generation. The Indian discrimination against Muslims on an institutional/society level is one such phenomenon

Poster major writes "you can try out the religious freedom in USA"

As long as you practice your religious freedom hidden in the basement of your house they wont say anything to you but as soon as you make a public display of it, US religious freedom, freedom of expression and other nonsense slogans of "freedoms" in the most controlled society in the world (the US), comes out as "clear as day" hypocrisy.

You made a good point, have a good evening

PS: if you want, you can try out the religious freedom in USA - why don't you go around holding islamic camps and convert the natives in alabama and see how the religious freedom works out for you?... they won't find your body parts... LOL

Re: # 286 hamidm
[...us commission on international religious freedom ...]

Do you think US commission on anything has any standing to lecture anybody?... not anymore - not after gitmo and iraq disaster...

Religious freedom is doing fine india, thnak you very much - except when some hopped-up mullahs or jesus-freaks go overboard... then they have to get a lesson...

My 5 minutes are over.

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Urstruly,

You have been fuming against mirzais for a long time now. What is your issue with them anyway? This is not a trick question … but I am hoping to hear something real, as opposed to the usual mullah-rants.

Islam prescribes that apostates be executed or exiled? This is not what Quran says. Are you sure?

+++

Salim Bhai,

If I recall correctly, you once mentioned something like “nepotism of mirzai fighter pilots” for the loss of East Pakistan. I was curious, but could not get much details from you. Care to elaborate?

Re: # 287

but let me hasten to add that the horrible hindoos are somewhat better than the pathetic pakis - at least on paper they do not discriminate between believers and non-believers ....... it is a good start and eventually they might become civilized ..... on the other hand, with our blasphemy laws, sharia courts and other such nonsense we are rapidly sliding backwards into the seventh century .....

#286

hamidm2

Good observation. Indians too need to introspect as to where their society is heading. What happened in Godhra, Kandhamal and other similar incidents elsewhere are unforgivable."Gojra" doesn't justify anything either.

Re: # 284

nkg,

..... the us commission on international religious freedom recently put india on its worst offenders list .... it is now at the same level as afghanistan and somalia .... why?

..... i think you horrible hindoos need to stop wagging your head sideways and do some introspection while you squat on the railroad tracks .........

Re: # 284 nkg you say, "when it comes to moslems, people's response is like that, "these beasts deservs far severe punishment than this....Hail Modi for allowing VHP guys to do that"

nkg, What you offer on Chowk is the best expose of Secular India....far more powerful than an Tehelka style investigative reports. Keep it up, nkg.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

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hamidm: and i do it all at no charge to the pakistani exchequer!! :-)

#272 harish: what you said was something different, but lets forget that if you agree that al zawahiri & co are not "pakistani citizens".

as for your question: "Do you disagree that it is the Pakis' own responsibility to take out terrorists on Paki soil?" Of course not. If I disagreed, i would be worrying (like you are doing) of how indians are fighting lawlessness within their borders.

and responsibility means using the age-old piece of common sense - the enemy of my enemy is my friend. US drones save lives in Pakistan (never mind AlephDud's lies) - because they reach remote areas that Pakistani troops would have to shed blood to reach. And US drone technology is the terrorists worst nightmare. That is why all this propaganda against drones by all ill-wishers of Pakistan - terrorist as well as Indian thugs like Alephdud.

Re: # 280
nkg
Are you promoting genocide?

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Re: # 276...
The truth is that, anti-moslem riots in India dampens the moslems and strengthens law and order situation. It is like chaining dog. In most of the places, it brought ghettoization of moslems but overall prosperity....Gujrat is no exception....

Re: # 276
nkg
In my interact #253, I wrote, "Incidents like Babri mosque and Gujrat have disrupted harmony." I did not mean economy or industry. However if you find a direct relation between economic growth and incidents of communal violence, please share it.

jaiho #266 yes indeed we need to first attend to sores in our own bodies. as they say, "physician (or indian, in this case), heal thyself".

Re: # 253
malik rashid...
Can you please explain this?

Gujrat Riot has not caused any negative impact on industry and development of that state....Gujrat is marching ahead in HDI and industry much faster rate than any other state after 2002...

Post 1991 (Babri Demolition), India registered best of the growth rate in all sectors....

And Sikhs, Jains, Arya Samajis, Christians etc... have setup excellent education, yoga and aurveda and healthcare facilities using the money they receive.....

If you find time please browse through the URLs, specialy the first one...

http://www.belurmath.org/home.htm
http://www.sathyasai.org/whereadd.h tm
http://www.amritapuri.org
http://www.davcmc.com
http://www.tirumala.org



and their activities...

harish_hyd #267

{{any country that allows a foreign power to target its citizens is not a free country, however much you wish to believe otherwise.}}

Which sovereign nation yields up power of life and death over its own citizens on its own soil to another nation? Sri Lankans raged about the presence of the IPKF on their soil, never mind that the IPKF was in a limited area in Northern Sri Lanka and trying to operate in the cordon-and-search mode, painful but better for innocent bystanders.

The use of drones operated remotely by joystick-jockeys minimizes the human cost to American forces at the cost of deaths of Pakistani citizens who had the misfortune to be mistaken for jihadis or jihad-enablers. The American rules of engagement are unlikely to place an intrinsic value on the lives of Pakistanis - they would be more concerned about the cost-effective use of Hellfire missiles and the nuisance value of protests from the Pakistani awam after each attack. It is amazing that tahmed32 feels no outrage over this situation.

But then our savant has already been known to cheer the spectacle of Pakistani helicopter gunships hunting down alleged 'mullah-dawgs'. Letting the Americans operate on Pakistani citizens in an even more indiscriminate way is but a small step for him ...

tahmed mian,

..... you are doing a fine job of defending pakistan against the hordes of horrible hindoos who keep on coming at you ...... but it is a futile battle - these scrawny dhoti clad dal-eaters just can't get over their thousand years of humiliation and will not give up until you give up eating meat and change your name to gopinath ......

.... anyway, i wish you luck

Ahmed Sahib,

But you did not ask me what made me change??

Actually, over the time, I came across many Pakistanis whom I found were just like me, they think the way I think and we became good friends.

Now I consider Pakistan to be their home, where my those anonymous friends live. I cant have ill feelings for them or their near & dear ones.

#269 by tahmed32

And as for the treacherous locals (like baitullah, appointed head of the pakistan taliban by zawahiri), the US is being a friend in need by taking them out.

Exactly what I said. It is not the US' job to take out people ON Pakistani soil, it is the Paki government's job.

So, please find some other reason to belittle pakistan.

Do you disagree that it is the Pakis' own responsibility to take out terrorists on Paki soil? If I said the same, how does that become "belittling" Pakistan?

#268 Ahmed Sahib,

OK. My best wishes for you ,your country and your people.

My last word is that I agree that Indians, in general, are very hawkish towards Pakistan. But I am sure that if one can change, others will also change over time.

And I feel that its Indians who have to be more accomodating towards Pakistan.

bye for now.

harish: actually, al-zawahiri is not a pakistani but a foreign invader. same of other egyptians, saudis, libyans, chechens, etc. many of whom have been captured and unmasked on Pakistn TV. And as for the treacherous locals (like baitullah, appointed head of the pakistan taliban by zawahiri), the US is being a friend in need by taking them out.

So, please find some other reason to belittle pakistan. or better yet, join jaiho sahib in making a fresh start with what you have, not being a prisoner of 1947.

#265 jaiho: Thats more like it, sahib. Let us go forwards then under the sunny skies of positivity then, catching Pakistan doing something right!! (I am being poetic too here. and of course when we discuss India we do the same).

#263 by tahmed32

e.g. Pakistan, which built the nuclear bomb despite severe US pressure, which made sure that US funds and weapons during the afghan-soviet war were given to Pakistan to distribute to its favored groups and not directly given to fighters (as the US wanted), is hardly a "ghulam" of the US as you were making it out to be.

tahmed32 sahib, any country that allows a foreign power to target its citizens is not a free country, however much you wish to believe otherwise. It is clear that even the Paki government is not comfortable with the drones operating on Paki soil and that is why the periodic statements condemning these attacks. You could argue that by taking out terrorists the US, as a friend, is in fact helping Pakistan get rid of a menace, but that is not the Americans' job; it is the job of the Paki government.

The North Koreans despite being in a bigger mess than Pakistan do not allow the US to mess with them.

#264 Ahmed Sahib,

I look at Pakistan from different eyes.

My point is simply that we, as humans, always have to strive for what we dont have. Like we may have very good health overall, but say, we have some sore somewhere in the body.

So we have to look for cure of that sore and not think that since we have strong body, a minor sore doesnt matter.

So we ahve to constantly work in our lives to remove our negatives and replace them with positives.

Ahmed Sahib,

is hardly a "ghulam" of the US as you were making it out to be.

OK Sorry. By "Ghulam" I did not mean its literal meaning. I used it in poetic sense.

jaiho: and to help you get started on a positive note, perhaps you could review the successes of Pakistan over the past couple of years (dictator forced to have free elections, mainstream parties in and religious parties out as a result, historical restoration of the Supreme Court as an independent arm, vibrant press, successful combating of terrorists). It might hurt a bit, I know, to dwell on these for a change, but you will feel a lot better later on. Trust me.

jaiho #260 That sounds wonderful in principal. We all need to start with where we are now, not where we would like things to have been 60 years ago.

And in order to make a positive start, one starts with emphasizing the positive, not the negative (as in your post #246).

e.g. Pakistan, which built the nuclear bomb despite severe US pressure, which made sure that US funds and weapons during the afghan-soviet war were given to Pakistan to distribute to its favored groups and not directly given to fighters (as the US wanted), is hardly a "ghulam" of the US as you were making it out to be.

#261 Malik Rashid,

I am not saying that Pakistan is in precarious position. It is in tough spot and will definitely sail through if it can act on its own.

What I am emphasising is that Pakistan is not free to act on its own. It is not free to manage its affairs the way it wants. It has to succumb to various internal and external pressures.It cannot ignore america and geo-political islam & its agents within Pakistan(I dont here mean the religion of Islam).

IMHO, the weakness of Pakistani State,if any, is not internal. Its from outside

But I think you know better.

Re: # 256
Jaiho
Government of Pakistan has always been a US ally. Christians do not have a kind view of the Jews. Remember holocaust. Had the state of Pakistan established a rule of law and religious bigotry disposed, Pakistan might not be in this precarious position.

#259
Ahmed Sahib,

Honestly speakingly, I am not NOW a typical Indian with reference to Pakistan. I was one ,yes, some years ago.

I have left that path. I have no grudges with Pakistan. I wish well for you and your country.

But ,again, honestly speaking, I am not happy either that Pakistan got created. A United Country would have been better. But OK, we have to live with what we have and what not we wish.

jaiho sahib: please try to be honest. you, like countless indians before you, come to chowk with only one thing on your mind - to try and convince pakistanis what a big mistake pakistan was. dont tell me you are all university professors in india who just happen to have picked "pakistan studies" as their special field of interest!!

jaiho #256 so the problem for Pakistan has changed since you wrote your post #246? Talk about a week being a long time in politics. We are talking minutes here!!

#255 Ahmed Sahib,

We are discussing Pakistan's Freedom in this forum and not India's freedom.

If you think that by pointing fingers towards India, Pakistan's problems get resolved, then you can point not only fingers but your hands,legs, head and tail(if you have one, by chance) as well.

#253 Malik Rashid

I agree fully with you.

But the situations are different.

I am not saying that trouble of Pakistan is because of Religion Islam or any kind of religous conflict within Pakistan.

Rather, its because the conflict between Muslims and Jews-Christians due to Israel-Palestine conflict.

Pakistan, unwillingly, is got trapped in this conflict and it, probably, has not been able to escape.

jaiho: in post below where i say i meant 246 i should have said i meant 248.

now that is really stupid! what else can i do after 63 years of ghulami of pakistan while you indians have been reaching for the stars and i hear you are all 10 feet tall.

#251 oh. there you are. yes i meant 246 and wrote 247. how stupid of me. being a paki, i make such mistakes.

Re: # 246
Jaiho
Religion has been a heavy stone around India's neck also, impeding progress. Caste system had to be reversed by the state after 1947. Incidents like Babri mosque and Gujrat have disrupted harmony.

jaiho: having trouble translating? Try googling on "Gibberese To English".

#249


#247 could you re-phrase your question in ordinary english?

BTW,#247 is your own post. So are you asking it to yourself?

Or you are referring some other post?

Re: # 237
Pinku
Asoka expanded his empire through wars.

#247 could you re-phrase your question in ordinary english?

#247

Thank You Jinnah. Now if only we had kept these anti-Pakistan mullahs who called you a kafir in India rather than letting them into Pakistan, we would have been even better off...

Why dont you throw them out then? Can You??

Yeh Nahi, Woh nahi, Aisa Nahi, Waisa nahi has no meaning,my friend.

Do you think Pakistan is based on assumptions?

#246 all pakistan pipple same-same india pipple same-same history 2000 years yada-yada-yada...

nevertheless...

Thank You Jinnah. Now if only we had kept these anti-Pakistan mullahs who called you a kafir in India rather than letting them into Pakistan, we would have been even better off...

Continued from my previous Post #231

The position of Pakistan in Muslim-Christian-Jew Triangle explains why two countries India and Pakistan, who shared the same history, culture and legacy for thousand of years have become so different in just 60 years.

India not only got political freedom but it also got mental and spritual freedom.

Pakistan, on the other hand, got pratically none. Political freedom was hijacked by Army, spritual freedom by Mullahs and mental freedom by americans. Even today in 2009, a common Pakistan is ghulam of these three whereas a common Indian is free altogether.

The worst mill-stones around the neck are america and islam. Pakistan is forced to wear the Islamic and american cholas on which it has no control or say. It cant accept or reject any of them. It has just to live with them.

And thats the main dilemma. Reminds of a famous "Ajit-joke" --"Isey Liquid Oxygen main daal do...Liquid isey jeeney nahi dega or oxygen isey marney nahi dega"

Islam(of M-C-J Triangle) will never let Pakistan live and America will never let it die.

#234 NKG

Aren't we getting enough trouble from the beduin worshippers in India now?

Nobody can say that in 2009 in India. Indian Muslims are contributing positively.

There are black sheeps everywhere,in every community who may be harming the country in one way or the other.

But you cant paint the whole IM community that way.

Re: # 223
anil...
Jinnah was, infact, boon for India. If Congress would not have opted for bad economic policy and India would not have sufferred from dictator family of Nehru, India would have been in far better state....
A peaceful partition would have been better for Indians. Gandhi and Nehru wanted to teach something to British empire, without keeping in mind about the Indians...
Muslas were scum then too and were at the bottom of ladder in education and other fields (as usual). A good migration plan and some better management would have made India a super power, now...This 2%-4% growth for 3/4 decades have brought India to its knees...
Pakistan was supposed to be a failed state and if USA stops providing aid, it will sink into islamic chaos like that of Africa and other musla countries. They need little more assistance from Saudis to beduinize the society, further...Once they reach the critical point (may 0.75 in beduin index, comparing to arabs), it will attain speed faster than gravitational fall to be another arab state on earth....

Re: # 223
anil...
Jinnah was, infact, boon for India. If Congress would not have opted for bad economic policy and India would not have sufferred from dictator family of Nehru, India would have been in far better state....
A peaceful partition would have been better for Indians. Gandhi and Nehru wanted to teach something to British empire, without keeping in mind about the Indians...
Muslas were scum then too and were at the bottom of ladder in education and other fields (as usual). A good migration plan and some better management would have made India a super power, now...This 2%-4% growth for 3/4 decades have brought India to its knees...
Pakistan was supposed to be a failed state and if USA stops providing aid, it will sink into islamic chaos like that of Africa and other musla countries. They need little more assistance from Saudis to beduinize the society, further...Once they reach the critical point (may 0.75 in beduin index, comparing to arabs), it will attain speed faster than gravitational fall to be another arab state on earth....

Re: # 223
anil...
Jinnah was, infact, boon for India. If Congress would not have opted for bad economic policy and India would not have sufferred from dictator family of Nehru, India would have been in far better state....
A peaceful partition would have been better for Indians. Gandhi and Nehru wanted to teach something to British empire, without keeping in mind about the Indians...
Muslas were scum then too and were at the bottom of ladder in education and other fields (as usual). A good migration plan and some better management would have made India a super power, now...This 2%-4% growth for 3/4 decades have brought India to its knees...
Pakistan was supposed to be a failed state and if USA stops providing aid, it will sink into islamic chaos like that of Africa and other musla countries. They need little more assistance from Saudis to beduinize the society, further...Once they reach the critical point (may 0.75 in beduin index, comparing to arabs), it will attain speed faster than gravitational fall to be another arab state on earth....

It cannot possibly take the entire population of Biharis.

khyber sb, there are 250K biharis. perhaps u know that pakistan took in 3 millions+ afghan refugees (most of whom will never go back), and countless other bangladeshis, sri lankans, iranians, etc. since 1971, who continue to live in pakistan even today.

This testimony in today's news of the lies spread by mullahs in Pakistan, and of the roots of their treachery to Pakistan.

Pakistan ka matlab kya

Monday, August 17, 2009
I read with interest Ayesha Khan’s above-titled piece (Aug 14). I had taken part in the Pakistan movement as a student from Aligarh Muslim University (India). I never heard the ‘Pakistan ka matlab kya…’ slogan. It was a surprise to me when I heard it for the first time from Gen Ziaul Haq during his address to a conference of engineers at Avari Hotel Lahore in 1986.

Nor is it true that Pakistan was created for Islam as is falsely claimed now. During the general elections of 1945 we, the students of Aligarh Muslim University, were spread all over the subcontinent to work in the constituencies of Muslim League candidates as were those of Islamia Colleges (Lahore and Peshawar) and others. We faced greatest opposition from religious parties like the JI, the JUI Hind (Parent body of the JUI) and Ahrar etc.

Had Pakistan been created according to the slogan: “Pakistan ka matlab kya lailaha ilallah” or for Islam there was no reason for these Islamist parties to oppose Pakistan or to have called Mr Jinnah ‘Kafir-e-Azam’. Now members of the JUI-F and the JI felt no qualms in enjoying the perks and privileges and honour of being ministers in the government of the country founded by Jinnah whom their forebears had called Kafir-e-Azam.

Pakistan’s objectives were clearly laid down by the founding father in his famous address to the Constituent Assembly on August 11, 1947 when, as noted by Ms Khan, he said: “You are free; you are free to go to your temples, you are free to go to your mosques or any other place of worship in this state of Pakistan. You may belong to any religion or caste or creed… this has nothing to do with the business of the state.”

Unfortunately these fundamental objectives have been forgotten in the din of religious slogans. That is why the country seems to be lost like a ship in unchartered waters. Unless and until we could follow these fundamental objectives of creation of Pakistan the country would have little chance of moving forward.

B A Malik (Alig)

Lahore

This testimony in today's news of the lies spread by mullahs in Pakistan, and of the roots of their treachery to Pakistan.

Pakistan ka matlab kya

Monday, August 17, 2009
I read with interest Ayesha Khan’s above-titled piece (Aug 14). I had taken part in the Pakistan movement as a student from Aligarh Muslim University (India). I never heard the ‘Pakistan ka matlab kya…’ slogan. It was a surprise to me when I heard it for the first time from Gen Ziaul Haq during his address to a conference of engineers at Avari Hotel Lahore in 1986.

Nor is it true that Pakistan was created for Islam as is falsely claimed now. During the general elections of 1945 we, the students of Aligarh Muslim University, were spread all over the subcontinent to work in the constituencies of Muslim League candidates as were those of Islamia Colleges (Lahore and Peshawar) and others. We faced greatest opposition from religious parties like the JI, the JUI Hind (Parent body of the JUI) and Ahrar etc.

Had Pakistan been created according to the slogan: “Pakistan ka matlab kya lailaha ilallah” or for Islam there was no reason for these Islamist parties to oppose Pakistan or to have called Mr Jinnah ‘Kafir-e-Azam’. Now members of the JUI-F and the JI felt no qualms in enjoying the perks and privileges and honour of being ministers in the government of the country founded by Jinnah whom their forebears had called Kafir-e-Azam.

Pakistan’s objectives were clearly laid down by the founding father in his famous address to the Constituent Assembly on August 11, 1947 when, as noted by Ms Khan, he said: “You are free; you are free to go to your temples, you are free to go to your mosques or any other place of worship in this state of Pakistan. You may belong to any religion or caste or creed… this has nothing to do with the business of the state.”

Unfortunately these fundamental objectives have been forgotten in the din of religious slogans. That is why the country seems to be lost like a ship in unchartered waters. Unless and until we could follow these fundamental objectives of creation of Pakistan the country would have little chance of moving forward.

B A Malik (Alig)

Lahore

#235,

You are even stupider than I thought. Read the posts again.

The draft resolution of Poland and the UN resolution 307 are two different things. Poland abstained from the latter.

I usually ignore you which is why you don't get replies.

#208 Posted by RiazHaq on August 16, 2009 6:59:17 pm
Re: # 182

RiazHaq
Your idea that Hinduism is not indigenous to India is simply wrong. And unfortunately even if you have millions of scholars of some kind who agree with you, it will still remain wrong factually. The primary reason is that what describes Hinduism or whatever we call Hinduism has mainly originated in India.
The same can not be said about Islam in Pakistan or Islam in India. Though, Sufi sect is something that was the product of Hindu influence on Islam, still it isn’t considered unique to India/Pakistan and most south asian muslims themselves will claim that Sufism originated in Arabia/Persia. Further, even with that claim most of them will not be willing to consider that to be their brand of religion probably because they believe in what they deny (that it is influenced by Hinduism and not pure Islam?).
I have discussed earlier that almost all civilization near or around Arabia during the time when Islam took birth in Arabia were much refined than what Islam was producing in Arabia at that time, this includes Persia, Byzantine empire, India/Afganista; and when Islam came in contact with these cultures it learnt some bits from them and at the same time wiped ruthlessly a lot of their essence, Arab traders originally brought ideas from Greece, India and Persia. The ideas brought to Arabia by people like Al Beruni, who provided the whole concept of Brahma/ Eras (Satyug,Kaliyug), philosophy and mythology of India ( along with science and mathematics ) were the things which started Sufism type thoughts. However, it was Persia which gave the first touch of civilization to Islamic Arab culture and also it was Persia because of which Islam could get people like Al Beruni and Omar Khayyam. Persia was a great civilization and so was India, both got disturbed by Islam, but they didn’t stop showing their brilliance because of their brilliant background.

[[
On Literature, Edward Sachau, scholar of Arabic and translator of Alberuni's 'Indica', wrote in his introduction:
"The foundations of Arabic literature was laid between AD 750 and 850. It is only the tradition relating to their religion and prophet and poetry that is peculiar to the Arabs; everything else is of foreign descent. The development of a large literature, with numerous ramifications, is chiefly the work of foreigners, carried out with foreign materials, as in Rome the origines of the national literature mostly point to the Greek sources. Greece, Persia, and India were taxed to help the sterility of the Arab mind….. What India has contributed reached Baghdad by two different roads. Part has come directly in translations from the Sanskrit, part has travelled through Eran, having originally been translated from Sanskrit (Pali ? Prakrit ?) into Persian, and farther from Persian into Arabic. In this way, e.g. the fables of Kalila and Dimna have been communicated to the Arabs, and book on medicine, probably the famous Caraka."
]]


The very reason why Pakistan and Islam deserve to be ruled by people like Taliban started when Muhammad’s army started sending letters to Persian emperors/Shahanshas and started conquering territories in the name of religion or in the name of Islam. And today those same things are kept alive by people who are ready to show their lack of sense of degree or comparison, where they arbitrarily say that two things are similar. If Hinduism was not indigenous than you deserve Taliban, if idiots from Arabia came to sow intelligence in India then you need bigger idiots from Taliban to attain the supreme height of intelligence. Basically, if those old conversions and wars fought in the name of Islam were right and comparable to what Hindus or Buddhists might have done to spread their religion, then you or us all deserve things much worse than Taliban.

Re: # 234
Jaiho...
I think BJP is right...

Jinnah helped us getting rid of chunk of muslas, who are known for creating trouble. President Sacrozy was right in describing muslas as "scum"...Aren't we getting enough trouble from the beduin worshippers in India now? What would have been the scenario, if we had Pakistan and B D with us? A malignant growth is better to be removed in earler stage than later...1947 was the proper time to remove the malignant parts of India....I would not have loved to see my country leveled as epicentre of terrorism, rather, I will love to see my father of nation being used as role model for peaceful resistance....

Nehru, created a political culture of family based dictatorship and is responsible for destruction of Industrial and econimic base in India...Indian growth rate slumed after Brits left to 2% to 4%...Once, we got rid of that family (after Rajiv Gandhi died), we have started joining the mainstrem and growing in almost all sectors quite fast....

Re: # 225
zeemax..
When Kashmir became part of Pakistan, that you are claiming "our land"?

India have ratified the merger with India (with article 370) from Kashmir Parliament and accession accord also signed by Maharaja Hari Singh...India followed the democractic norm....
and
Pakistan invaded and occupied Kashmir by using armed tribal lashkars.

And thus India became "occupying" force and pakistan the "legitimate" spokesperson for Kashmir.

And that is what you call support for "freedom" of Kashmiri movement?

Here I will give you an example from civilised world in your neighbourhood....

After getting rid of Pakistani occupation, India withdrew all its force from Bangla Desh and never tried to annex it as part of India...I hope, in your musla/kattu head, this civilised concept will take some time, but will definitely be absorbed later (after all you are also like humans and this place was once a civilised place housing earliest of the civilisations, earliest of the universities)....

Please think little bit sparing customary shout in arabic and banging head on floor (5 times) couple of days...

Arabic moon god did not helped you in the matter of Bangla Desh...He/She failed to help you guys in snatching Kashmir from India...May be you are too far away from Arab...Try to relocate the country close to you holy place...may be, you can access arabic moon god better way....

Please reply after 2/3 months trying to understand the way India or other civilised country behaves and if possible, try to emulate that in Pakistan....

@ Raiz Haq


I think the BJP leadership hates Nehru and Gandhi much more than they hate Jinnah.

Its a political ploy and nothing else.

By making such statements, BJP thinks it will be able to distance Indian Muslims from Congress by making them feel that all their troubles in India are because of the creation of Pakistan and it was Nehru who created Pakistan.

But I dont think by criticising Nehru and praising Jinnah, BJP will be able to break into Muslim votes. It will get Muslim votes only if shuns Hindutva politics and turns secular.

Rashid Malik...
Cool man. Indians have sufferred under Nehru for long time. Creation of Pakistan was / is good for everyone...You can follow arab beduinism and create a semi-beduinistic state, under leadership of Saudi Arabia and Indians can preserve their age old culture and value system....Jinnah was great man and will be admired by Indians for creation of Pakistan...Nehru will always be despised for creating a political dynastic culture in India, specialy that in Congress and bringing economic doom...Pakistan used to register higher growth than India for long time...

Rashid Malik...
Cool man. Indians have sufferred under Nehru for long time. Creation of Pakistan was / is good for everyone...You can follow arab beduinism and create a semi-beduinistic state, under leadership of Saudi Arabia and Indians can preserve their age old culture and value system....Jinnah was great man and will be admired by Indians for creation of Pakistan...Nehru will always be despised for creating a political dynastic culture in India, specialy that in Congress and bringing economic doom...Pakistan used to register higher growth than India for long time...

Actually, Pakistan never got freedom.

It just escaped from one ghulami to fall into another.

The second ghulami I am talking about is Muslim-Christian-Jew Triangle which has not only sucked Pakistan into it but worse still ,Pakistan has now moved to centre of it.

The first ghulami was easier because it was known to everybody that it will end on its own one day. But when this new ghulami will end, nobody knows. Or will it end altogether anyday or will it consume Pakistan in between.

The Jews-Christians have badly hurt the the pride of Muslims and it is unlikely that Muslims will just bear it considering it to be their fate. The scars will take a long time to heal, if they heal at all or even may not heal at all.

So,IMHO, though I wish I am wrong, its a long long winter for Pakistan.

Below was the gist. Here's the complete text as approved:

Adopted by 13 votes to none, with 2 abstentions (Poland, Union of Soviet Socialist Republics) by the Security Council at its 1620th meeting, on 21 December 1971

The Security Council,

Having discussed the grave situation in the subcontinent, which remains a threat to international peace and security,

Noting General Assembly resolution 2793 of 7 December 1971,

Noting the reply of the Government of Pakistan on 9 December 1971,

Noting the reply of the Government of India on 12 December 1971,

Having heard the statements of the Deputy Prime Minister of Pakistan and the Foreign Minister of India,

Noting further the statement made at the 1616th meeting of the Security Council by the Foreign Minister of India containing a unilateral declaration of a cease-fire in the western theatre,

Noting Pakistan's agreement to the cease-fire in the western theatre with effect from 17 December 1971,

Noting that consequently a cease-fire and a cessation of hostilities prevail,

1. Demands that a durable cease-fire and cessation of all hostilities in all areas of conflict be strictly observed and remain in effect until withdrawals take place, as soon as practicable, of all armed forces to their respective territories and to positions which fully respect the cease-fire line in Jammu and Kashmir supervised by the United Nations Military Observer Group in India and Pakistan;

2. Calls upon all Member States to refrain from any continent or endanger international peace;

3. Calls upon all those concerned to take all measures necessary to preserve human life and for the observance of the Geneva Conventions of 1949 and to apply in full their provisions as regards the protection of the wounded and sick, prisoners of war and civilian population;

4. Calls for international assistance in the relief of suffering and the rehabilitation of refugees and their return in safety and dignity to their homes, and for full co-operation with the Secretary-General to that effect;

5. Authorizes the Secretary-General to appoint if necessary a special representative to lend his good offices for the solution of humanitarian problems;

6. Requests the Secretary-General to keep the Council informed without delay on developments relating to the implementation of the present resolution;

7. Decides to remain seized of the matter and to keep it under active consideration.

#227 Urstruly,

Pls see below:

United Nations Security Council Resolution 307, adopted on December 21, 1971, after hearing statements from India and Pakistan the Council demanded that a durable cease-fire be observed until withdrawals could take place to respect the cease-fire line in Jammu and Kashmir. The Council also called for international assistance in the relief of suffering and rehabilitation of refugees as well as their return home and a request for the Secretary-General to keep the council informed on developments.

Above is the entire text of Resolution 307.

#227 Urstruly,

Pls see below:

Re: # 225

Zeemax, I respectfully disagree. The resolution 307 does refer to the earlier draft resolution that you are referring to but it is my understanding that resolution 307 is the revised version of earlier draft that could not made into agenda. Look, the matter is simple, a resolution cannot be put up for debate until it is made into agenda. A UNSC meeting would not and does not discuss what is not in the agenda. Which means that what Bhutto tore was something on the agenda _ I do not think that UNSC would or does telecast an agenda setting meeting. This is the work of under secretaries.

Re: # 199 malik sahib

and ironically yet every modernist today targets allama iqbal with his jootay baazi.

Look you don't need to give me lectures on tolerance and stuff. In modern day society tolerance means shit. It is the law that matters. I beleive in law. There are laws against blasphemy and other religious crimes in Pakistan but no one has ever been punished by these laws. Had we chopped off at least 5 heads in the very beggining and had we punished those who wrongfully accuse others of acts like blasphemy, with punishment of Qazzaf the crimes of religious intolerances would have disappeard from Pakistan.

But the ruling social elite and fouj have turned every law into a fukking joke. The enforcement is either nill or it is upon the weekest in the society. And abuse of law is on both sides - every choora, mussali, or mirzai who wants a canadian visa tries to get a case of blasphemy registered agaisnt him. Some Moulvis take money to accuse someone of having blasphemed - just as the news is published in newspaper, the canadian consulate issues a visa for the whole family as a refugee. All these consulates need is a copy of FIR and newspaper clipping.

Oh! don't take me wrong, I do not blame these people (choora, mussali, and mirzais) that why they do that, I actually appreciate them for their efforts to get out of this cesspool of coruption and lawlessness called Pakistan. Every human being deserves a better life, security for family and law and justice - why not them. I think the biggest culprit of blasphemy are the corrupt ruiling elite, the ghulamzadas, and haramzadas and East India company ki najaiz aulaad - the fukking fouj.

#184 Posted by Urstruly,

Sorry Urstruly, but masadi is right about this. The UN Resolution 307 you quoted is about LOC in Kashmir and not about East Pakistan. The December 15 Resolution No S/1045/Rev.1 by Poland was a just a draft circulated amongst the security council members, no vote was taken, and never adopted.

Further, what ZAB tore up was not even the draft resolution but his own notes.

In the Polish draft, it was stated that after the Pakistani troops had begun their withdrawal, the Indian armed forces would withdraw. That means that the Pakistan forces should withdraw from their own territory, and then the foreign occupying forces would begin to withdraw.`

It was the Chinese representative Ambassador Huang who exposed the Polish draft for what it was. He said in his statement, `This is a draft resolution to involve the Security Council directly in the dismemberment of Pakistan. China firmly opposes this draft resolution.

I can provide the entire text of the draft and the references for the above paras if you like.

#217 Posted by KHYBER on August 16, 2009 8:00:29 pm
{"Re: # 213 Salim saab I think we Have No Liability Towards Biharis anymore, after more then 30 years, almost three more generations have come up and they are technically BANGLADESHI CITIZENS NOW,who don't have feelings for Pakistan as their parents or grand parents had.. "}

Khyber Sahib,
At least you chose the passage of time as an excuse rather than racial, linguistic, or ethnic grounds for keeping these unfortunate Pakistanis out of their own country. I understand your logic - deny justice long enough and eventually you can argue that the issue has become too old - circumstances have changes, and their has been a changing of the guard in the victims and the perpetrators - so problem has been solved. BTW, the Israelis were counting on this exact logic of yours to build, expand, annex Jewish settlements on the West Bank - especially Jerusalem. So, even the Arabs will have to agree that you just can't tear down all those permanenet settlements, and therefore, those areas should be attached to Israel - in exchange for some prime real estate in the Negev.

You may have solved the "Bihari" problem, but Pakistan is paying through the nose for its denial of justice and discounting the value and meaning of Pakistani citizenship. No wonder the Baluch and others are losing their longing and respect for this nation, that works so hard to keep its own citizens from coming home.

By the way, just as you are married to a Bangladeshi, let me point out that I am NOT a Bihari, have no friends or relatives stranded in Bangladesh, and am married to a Turkish woman who has never visited India, Pakistan, or Bangladesh.

I am no BJP, but I have always said that Jinnah is an abandoned Indian hero.

PS to #221: and good response to this man in your post #217.

Khyber #217 So your wife is from Bangladesh! I used to go to Bangladesh in the late 1990's in connection with the micro-credit activities there. One of the most inspiring things I have seen in my life was the enthusiastic manner in which women borrowing under micro-credit programs would discuss their micro-credit enterprises and future plans.

Re: # 212 Khyber

Here is a good interview that Jaswant Singh has given on his book:

http://ibnlive.in.com/news/gandhi-jinnah-both-failed-jaswant/99323-37.h tml

Re: # 210
I think the BJP leadership hates Nehru and Gandhi much more than they hate Jinnah.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 216Hi Tahmid....thanks.... lol
Mwaqar
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Re: # 213 Salim saab I think we Have No Liability Towards Biharis anymore, after more then 30 years, almost three more generations have come up and they are technically BANGLADESHI CITIZENS NOW,who don't have feelings for Pakistan as their parents or grand parents had.. What we did for their repatriation was due to the Islamic Summit. There was an agreement that a certain number of them should be brought to Pakistan, A far greater number has been brought to Pakistan. It cannot possibly take the entire population of Biharis.Don't take me wrong,I have nothing against Bangladesh as I am married to a Bangladeshi woman.
Mwaqar
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Khyber #212 My Goodness Gracious!! I thought the only place where who did what to whom in 1947 was still being discussed was on chowk. :-)

#213/214: re-read #143.

#211 tahmed's usual hypocritical post, he is a racist (see how he uses Arab with no clarification or exception to condemn an entire people) and he is a bigot who believes that the West is best and the white man is god, note how he uses the term "lowlife" to condemn some people while writing against the use of the label "Mirzai"- both the mullahs and tahmed are of the same mindset that led to the sectarian violence, they both saw their victims as i) an outsider- as signified by the term Mirzai and ii) as lowlife, whose killing would not be the killing of a human being.

Tahmed is in their camp, he is a hypocrite and a liar and a spineless snake....

#211 Posted by tahmed32 on August 16, 2009 7:16:16 pm

{"And it is time we stopped tolerating these lowlife and tried to have "discussions" with them. Pakistanis need to reclaim their religion, their country back from these lowlife"}

Tahmed Sahib,
We also need to reclaim our country back from those who would deny citizenship to hundreds of thousands of loyal Pakistanis. These demagogues insist on their cruel bias merely because the reparation of these lowly "Biharis" would somehow affect the ethnic, linguistic, or racial balance perceived to be more important than national principlea by the hypocritical bigots.

In his new book Jinnah - India, Partition, Independence, which hits the stands on Monday, Singh has argued that Jinnah did not win Pakistan, it was conceded to him by Congress leaders Jawaharlal Nehru and Sardar Vallabhbhai Patel.
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RiazHaq sahib,here is a interesting news,.........
GEO.COM
Jinnah was great, writes Jaswant Singh
New Delhi: Controversy has been sparked by Jaswant Singh's observation regarding partition in his book about India's independence struggle. Mr. Singh has, contrary to popular perception prevailing in India, glorified Jinnah who is often demonised in India, as an ambassador of Hindu-Muslim unity.

Singh’s view of Jinnah is markedly different to the accepted Indian image. He sees him as a nationalist, even accepting that Jinnah was a great Indian.

Jaswant Singh also goes on to term Nehru as one of the principal architects of India's partition. He also writes that Jinnah did not win Pakistan, rather Nehru and Patel conceded Pakistan to Jinnah with help of the British.

The BJP leader supported his opinion saying that till 1945 Jinnah was seeking a solution to the problems between Hindus and Muslims. And consider it not as a communal problem but as the problem of a nation.

Earlier, Advani, senior leader of BJP also faced a lot of public and political scorn when he called Jinnah a great nationalist.

This book can evoke serious contempt from the leaders of RSS which has zero tolerance against the Pakistani leader and is likely to cause turmoil in Indian politics.
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Re: # 182
Salim, There is broad consensus among recognized scholars (South Asian and Foreign) of India's history that says Aryan and Hinuism are not indigenous to India. The Aryans were foreign invaders who imposed their religion and caste system on the local population in the Indus valley.

We saw this debate in California in 2005 when some Hindutva groups tried to whitewash Indian history of the caste system, systematic discrimination against women, subjugation of the natives etc. in California textbooks. If anyone is serious about learning more about this debate, please read the following:

http://www.friendsofsouthasia.org/textbook/TextbookEdits.html

E xample of attempted revision of India's history:

Oxford University Press

Page 76, second paragraph reads

The language and traditions of the Indo-Aryan speakers replaced the old ways of the Harappans…”

Hindutva (HEF) Demand: Replace with “People from elsewhere in India replaced…”

Comment:
This edit does not modify, but actually rewrites history, completely contradicting the intent of the original passage. In this case, the HEF edit rejects the role of Indo-Aryans in ancient India, contrary to prevailing scholarly views on this topic.



Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

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Re #158

Dear Mr. Dude 40000,

Thanks for responding but you did not read my request. I had asked for a simple response (yes or no). I had explicitly requested that you NOT include 'buts' and 'ifs' : you cameback with 'my way or highway' attitude.

Dude, just like you can't chose your parents or sibblings your political geography is also unalterable. Your segacious Prime Minister understands that: “we cannot wish away the fact that Pakistan is our neighbor. A stable, peaceful and prosperous Pakistan is in India’s own interest.” He had said recently. I agree with him 100%.

Now here is something that simple folks like us can do: stop spewing hatred on airwaves, internet etc.

Let me remind you Dude that South Asians (you and me) are a group of people with a shared history and that this history provides a common basis for understanding our place in the contemporary world. We can choose to amplify our differences of region, religion and nationality within South Asia, or we can highlight our commonalities.

We are living in an era of rightward political drift. And, I invite you to commit yourself to advance the forces for social and economic justice.

Let's continue to nurture critical and dissenting voices: lets continue to debate the range of radical alternatives to present social arrangements. Let's eschew our nationalist diatribe in favor of a larger, peaceful region that serves us all.

I invite you to take a look at www.ibrahimsajidmalick.com

Wishing you all the best!

Re: # 189
urstruly
Do you know that Allama Iqbal used to hang out with the Qadianis because he associated with their desire to modernise religion?

Re: # 194

None

Re: # 195

urstruly,

.... but then we have a problem - you see, i don't have a 'religion' even though my parents, my siblings, my wife and most of my friends are mohammedans ...... i am just a cultural moslem who likes to have sheer khurma and gurday kapooray once a year ..... what is going to happen to me ?

Re: # 188 Giani

Well, for it is worth, here is an excellent tome on the subject, titled, "The Subtle Subversion: The State of Curriculum and Textbooks in Pakistan" by A. H. Nayyar and Ahmad Salim. You can download it at:
http://www.sdpi.org/whats_new/reporton/State%20of%20Curr&TextBooks.pdf



(If the link does not work, you can do a Web search on it)

Other books on the subject are:

K. Aziz's Murder of History in Pakistan (1993) and Rubina Saigol's Enemies Within and Enemies Without: The Besieged Self in Pakistani Textbooks (2002)

Re: # 193

Nothing. There is no compulsion in our religion. All you have to do is to stop calling your religion "Islam". I think this is the only bone of contention between you and me. I think you are otherwise a fine gentleman if you could help your potty mouth.

Re: # 189...what is the difference between HINDUS,who attack,kill,rape MUSLIMS/CHRISTENS in India and Pakistani religious fanatics who recently burnt poor christens alive,destroyed their property and claimed its their religious duty to punish non Muslims.
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Re: # 189

urstruly,

..... thanks for letting me know that i am a "real" apostate since i was born into a muslim family ...... so, what are you going to do about it?

Re: # 190

then stop red flagging my posts chawal aadmi.

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Re: # 186

urstruly,

.... it is good to see you back - now you can give us the real islamic perspective

Re: # 187

No, you are mistaken. There is plenty of tolerance, otherwise mirzais would have been dispatched to abbitoir long time ago. The ungrateful pieces of ... mirzais should be in fact thankful to the "religious fanatics" for not letting that happen.

See, there is a built in technicality in Islamic law that the present day Mirzais are not apostats by definition. They did not abandon Islam, they were born into the religion of their parents. None of the apostates who abandoned Islam and followed Mirza Quadiani in 19th century are alive today. Its their children who were born into the religion of teir chosing. So the laws of apostasy do not apply to present day mirzais.

This fatwa was probably issued either by Moulana Shah Ahmadi Noorani sahib or by Moulana Addul Sattar Niazi but was adopted by all schools of Muslim jurisprudence across the globe. So the irony is that that the greatest detractors of Mirzais are in fact the greatest benefactors of Mirzai. There is plenty of tolerance all around us, but only if you want to see.

Re: # 182

Dear salim Mian - Your muslas are equally guilty in re-writing history. In your country, history begins with invasion of Gazni. What about Harappa and IVC - they are conveniently forgotton.

Yea, history is written by victors to suit their political ends.

Aryan Invasion - well dna markers are now debunking any invasion crap 5000 BC or any older invasion. The northern part of south asia is an amalgam again as per DNA with recent markers.

ritual killing of dark skinned natives ????? Which book are you reading about this crap - must be the Pakistani History books!!!!

Temple prostitutes etc were recent phenomena - an outcome of isolation of the subcontinent- definitely not mandated by any holy book. No Holy book is definitively bad or good. It is all subject to interpretation - Just like your tally bad are interpreting your holy book to justify their actions.

Man, you need to educate yourself. Where did you think the Pakistanis come from - Jupiter????? Did you get off the wrong side of the bed this morning or what ?

#186 Posted by Urstruly....it seems like there is no sense of tolerance in Islam and pakistani religious fanatics,I was kid too when mulim fanatics attacked my MIRZAI friend house,it was so shameful for me then and still today when those religious muslim fanatics burnt CHRISTENS in Pakistan.
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Re: # 183

The constitutional protections given to Quadianis are unIslamic - The true Islamic injunction against apostates is that they should either be exiled or put to sword. This principle was established by Holy Prophet (pbuh) when he declared war against Mussailma Kazzab and by four Righteous Caliphs against many other imposters. I think we are being overly nice to ungrateful mirzais.

As for attack on Christians is concerned, it is shameful for any Muslim. As Muslim nation we have promised to protect the life, property, and honor of all non-Muslims including Christians and Mirzais. This promised was made as a nation in the social contract of 1973 - the Constitution of Pakistan. As a Muslim, I am ashamed, of what Muslims in Gojra have done - they shouldn't have done it even if Qura'n was torn apart. A promise is a promise.

Coming back to mirzais - as during the British raj - they have again chosen their sides with our Imperial enemies. If it hasn't dawned upon you until now, pakistan is under vicious military attack by this colonial entity - thousands of pakistanis are being killed, tortured, and taken pows as we speak. Please come back from Mars.

By the age of 63, a COUNTRY, like a man; should have achieved a certain maturity. After decades of existence we know, for good and for bad, who we are, what we have done and how we appear to others. But unfortunately, Pakistan remains curiously immature, a Country with less then 50% rate of literacy can’t bring political wisdom that usually accompanies age. But today the country's national narrative of macho victim hood appears to the rest of the world as simply bizarre. Pakistan's rich, bourgeois, feudal minded leaders have failed their country by failing to protect the poor and failing to give them basic education and security,
Today more than 60 years after the independence this country is struggling as a nation. The history of Pakistan is a tragic story of a country that was, looted by its guardians, injured by its neighbours, deceived by its friends, destroyed by its policy makers and most importantly ignored by its own people. Death of Jinnah, the founding father of Pakistan, and murder of Liaqat Ali Khan were the first two jolts that negatively affected the already vulnerable political structure of the country. Head of state vs. head of the government, Secularism vs. Islamization, Democracy vs. dictatorship and Centralization vs. provincial autonomy are the debates that are kept ablaze since 1950s to the present day. Even in 2009 we as a nation are divided on these issues. The feeble and short-lived political coalitions, mal-administration of selfish rulers, abrogated constitutions, deprived middle class, superiority of individuals over institutions all this and more drove the country into a dark tunnel of political journey. Could anyone see light at the end?
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Re: # 168
urstruly
In 1972 they killed qadianis in Pakistan and soon after there was this National assembly resolution calling qadianis non-muslims. A class-fellow of mine, jovial, fun-loving kid was murdered because of the faith of his parents. In gojra recently, christians were murdered and their houses burnt down. You depict the mentality that incensed the mob and caused a great harm to Pakistan by instituting this non-muslim clause and setting Pakistan on a path of religious extremism. We are still paying for the sins committed by religious bigots. I did not expect you to be one of them.

Here is my mini essay on the rewriting of history by right-wing Hindutvas. I posted this on UP, but for your convenience I share it with you here so that you can understand what drives them to be on the offensive - because there is much too much to defend.

The rewriting of history and selective moral pontifications of Hindutva proponents

Many liberal Pakistanis have tried to understand and refute the new trend, or rather nonsense, started by chauvinistic Hindutva goons. The orange brigade types are determined to rewrite history and justify their idiotic behavior and that of their BJP/RSS/VHP/BD/JS/SP/SS cohorts.

So, now, we are led to believe that the world, especially India, was perfect before early 8th century AD when Mohammad Bin Qasim appeared on the scene. Then things went into idle mode until the late tenth century and Mahmud Ghaznavi rediscovered India. We can keep listing the villains - Ghori, Babar, and skip over Akbar because he satisfied at least one native Indian, and come to the bête noir, Maharaja Aurangzeb.

So many right-wing Hindutva types, like the modern day dhoti-clad Toynbee Jis, pretend that there was no Aryan invasion of India circa 5000 BC. No mention is made about these carnivorous, pale-skinned, hairy warriors who, while not writing sacred scriptures on the banks of the Indus, were enslaving dark-skinned natives. These founding fathers of Hinduism were destroying civilizations, cities, infrastructure, slaughtering advanced and educated people, and abducting swarthy females at night to create multiple layers and shades of pigmentation and, therefore, caste - which itself means color.

No mention of scriptures that glorified the enslavement, cruel treatment, and ritual slaughter of dark-skinned "Indian" natives. No mention of the priestly class that exploited and sucked the life out of lower castes. No mention of temple prostitutes, incest, mass destruction, and gods taking sides while killing one group of humans to help another. There is no apology offered for human sacrifices, child marriages, forced immolation of widows, and royals getting rich off the hard work and sweat of the slave labor consisting primarily of "untouchables."

Dear Brahmins and other “high-born” Indians, don't tell me that the ancestors of the high-caste Hindus were traveling in outer staterooms on the triangular cruise ship, Bharat, that broke off Africa and slammed into the Himalayas. Did it ever occur to you that Central Asia may have had the misfortune of being the original abode of these bloodthirsty tyrants who founded the pyramid scheme known as Hinduism?

Re: # 180RAM RAM,,,,,WHY don't u go to india and help homeless there.
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Allah hu Akbar!

Another glorious day comes to a close as the competition for Who is a 'True Pakistani?' heats up. I am sitting in the stands with a sellout crowd. Perhaps, we will have an answer by next year's Independence Day.

In the meantime, you guys may do better by reverting to your Minimal Common Agenda: India bashing. It has worked like a charm for every Mard-e-Momim General since 1947 (except for one forgettable year: 1971). We need a few tasteful labels for Hindus from Urstruly, examples of 'pandit-hate' from Tahmed, and irrefutable statistics (complete with Web references, of course) from none other than Riaz.

That should solve all problems, and keep you guys gainfully employed till next year.

Allah hafiz

Re: # 177 kryptoniteminefield ...you are masadi or not,you can change your color but can't change your low class,narrow mindedness,conservative mentality. It is fact that Christian missionaries have built many hospitals and schools compared to Saudis sponsoring Jihad through maddressahs. Unfortunately Pakistani elite and bourgeious plus MURDA ZIA,responsible for handing over education to the Saudis through maderresa where they teach hate, thats why every day, it increasingly resembles a tragic clone of Taliban Afghanistan.
Mwaqar
http://pukhtunkhwatimes.blogspot.com/
http://thepathans.blogspot.com/
http ://twitter.com/mwaqar09

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malikrashid writes "An attitude is attributed to Pakistanis which includes foul mouthing, expression of ignorant superiority and immature ego clash..."

Once again attacking the victims who have been trained to put their head down and say "As you command sir" to the white man and suffer from inferiority complex as a result. Anyone who tries to give them self respect, raise their head high inspite of the shit the Pakistan Army has put them through you say is "ignorant superiority and immature ego clash". F that, tell the white man not to display his contrived superiority in everything he allows displayed in the world and we will gladly give up this "immature ego clash". Until then if you want to grovel in the dust and kiss the white man's feet go ahead, I certainly wont do it...

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#173 Best wishes to you too, Mr. Masadi.

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#168 urstruly: dont dare call yourself a pakistan after calling the national army "napak" for defending Pakistan from your arab gods and their taliban dogs who are invading Pakistan.

rashid sahib #163: excellent point. Not only has arab money served to destroy thousands of lives in madrassahs, but also currently fuels the arab-led invasion of Pakistan, with taliban serving as their henchmen.

Riaz/Rashid: #168 illustrates my earlier point - namely, that words are cheap. That it is easy to "condemn" criminal actions like gojra killings. What really matters is doing something about it.

Thus, right here on chowk you two enlightened, gentle persons are observing Urstruly practicing the same "minority bashing" as at gojra - by using the term "mirzai" as a form of insult. I chose to stand up to such actions. You chose to overlook it - and simply utter enlightened views.

Is it any surprise that this form of "tolerance" - namely, "tolerance" of minority bashers, women abusers, and even plain old traitors who have butchered thousands of Pakistanis - that you two have demonstrated is in fact widespread in Pakistan. And that is why Pakistan has been brought to the abyss, and chose to fight back when further "tolerance" meant Islamabad itself was threatened??

PS: Not that it matters, but I happen not to be an Ahmedi. As Urstruly well knows.

In all fairness, the mirzai with his post #131 started it all.

My comments in #130 were only directed at sell outs, harmazadas, and ghulamzadas who are destroying pakistan day in day out. It is to bad that this mirzai associates himself with that group - and his outbursts are evidence in itself.

As for the roos ki bewah, the used car salesman - masadi - less said the better. I heard this moron is a teacher in Pakistan - that partially explains why pakistan is a cesspool.

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Re: # 162
Ahmed Sahib,
With all due to respect you Sir, I have offered my unsolicited suggestion to you and others to cool it. It's up to you to accept or reject it.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Re: # 161
Tahmed writes
"..our christian compatriots (who have shown more patriotism in war and in peace than all the treacherous arab-apeing mullahs combined.."

Christian missionaries have built many hospitals and schools compared to Saudis sponsoring Jihad through maddressahs.

riaz sahib: if you have a problem with anything i wrote below, cut and paste it and tell me why it is wrong. otherwise spare hold your peace along with these vague innuendoes.

#156 and as for condemning Gojra - words are cheap. Particularly if you are condemning something obviously criminal, as happened in Gojra.

Actions - which on chowk means remaining honest in terms of avoiding the "three frauds" that I listed in #159 below - speak louder than words. In real life, actions would mean arresting the maulvi who instigated this, along with others who committed the crimes AND punishing them through due process of law.

Whether the Pakistan government has learnt enough about the evil of mullahism to make sure they punish them for the murder of our christian compatriots (who have shown more patriotism in war and in peace than all the treacherous arab-apeing mullahs combined, let alone this one scoundrel in Gojra) in Gojra remains to be seen.

Re: # 156
Rashid Malik,
I share your concern. And I hope that, as the heat of the debate dissipates, the interactors in question will refrain from the personal nature of the debate to more focused on the issues at hand, rather than party or personality or ethnicity etc.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

rashid sahib #156 while i wish everyone on chowk was as urbane and considerate as you, i differ with what you say: one must draw the line somewhere.

bullying comes in different forms, and on chowk it comes in the form of

1. throwing mud at someone (as masadi routinely does to indivduals, indians to "pakis") hoping some of it would stick; 2.

2. lying about someone's views to make them appear absurd or bigoted (as salim was doing below)

3. labelling someone (as urstruly was doing below, in the ignoble tradition of the pakistani maulvi, by labelling anyone who challenges his pro-terrorist views as a "mirzi").

You can either ignore tham (as Khyber did below, by simply switching off from the discussion); you can pander to these bullies by calling their bullying; or you can expose their fraud as I did in #143 that mr. salim suddently found noxious - ignoring that if what i wrote about their behavior is noxious it is because their behavior is noxious.

Hope this explains.

Re: # 157

Malick Saab - Since you asked this question to Indians as well. here's the post I had made a few weeks ago about what India's expectations from pakistan are:

What do we mean when we say a "stable" Pakistan in India's interests?
Topic started by dude40000 on Aug 3, 2009 12:01:54 pm
My definition of stable Pakistan is below, what is yours?

Stable Pakistan means,

1.no ISI,
2. No LeT and other Jihadies.
3. Just your garden variety army reporting to civilians.
4. No Anti Hindu books in schools
5. Secular Pakistan...not Islamic republic and the land of the Pure BS.
6. Getting out of POK, so the POKashmiries can join with their brothers in the Indian state of Kashmir

IF that is all considered part of Stable Pakistan.

Then, Hell Yeah! It is in India's interest.

If any one of those is not considered as part of being "stable Pakistan", then India's interest is to see that Pakistan fails.

It is out of character for me to engage in "who can piss father- India or Pakistan" debate, however, I couldn't restrain myself. Let me try to bring this conversation back home:

"let us hope that democracy stays in Pakistan and grows stronger to establish a rule of law that delivers against all those who think of themselves beyond law."

Do you see anything wrong with this wish? Any Pakistanis here who oppose democracy? Please just raise your hand and give 'yes' or 'no' responses. Do you disagree with this hope and prayer of the author?

"Let us support the judiciary to become stronger and capable of dealing with the rich, the mighty, the feudal lords, military and ISI under the constitution of Pakistan."

Are there any Indians on this blog who would demean this wish of a Pakistani? Please raise your hand- no buts and ifs. Just raise your hand and say "I don't want a democratic neighbor where judiciary is stronger than the rich, the mighty, the feudal lords, military and ISI?

It was not very long ago everybody condemned Gojra incident. Gojra incident was a brutal example of intolerance. I notice intolerance and name calling in some of the posts below. Had these participants sitting face to face, somebody could get a bloody nose. So we should thank this remoteness because of internet. Some of us do not mind name-calling and using hurtful language. Somewhere in Gojra some showed similar intolerance, disrespect and abuse which led to murders and burning of houses. Being a junior member on chowk I am disappointed at some excellent participants who teach me so much with their interact everyday. Tahmed, Urstruly, Salim Chauhan and Kryptoniteminefield, I am always impressed with what you say whether I agree with you or not. An attitude is attributed to Pakistanis which includes foul mouthing, expression of ignorant superiority and immature ego clash. Difference of expression shown with above attitudes breed acrimony and hatred and it hinders positive absorption of reasonable ideas. I am sure each one of you has a lot to share and improve on our collective knowledge if a civilized posture is kept in conversations here.

It just depends on who is asking this question. Pakistanis are totally proud, loud and confidant in assering their nationalism when asked by authentic listeners. Unfortunately, most Indians are not authentic in asking this perennial question.

Well...well! I was checking in to wish a happy Independence day to Pakistanis, and was pleasantly surprised to see celebrations (er...going after each other's throats) are in full swing. Keep at it, guys. Maybe one day you will solve your National Identity Problem!

Every Pakistani has one perennial problem "who am i?". Try answering that.... and please don't compare Pakistan with India and say we are better off. as if that will take you somewhere! you guys wanted to be different from us poor kafirs, and we wanted you guys to get out, thats it period.get a life guys, its been too long.

It appears that the pakis are now finally learning what is considered as individualisam in an american society. Pakis domestic politics has all along been purely communal rhetoric. If this new behavior ever takes root in pakiland then, maybe, puristanis can see a brighter future.

#143 Posted by tahmed32 on August 15, 2009 9:48:00 pm
{"#138 looks like we have here the scum of chowk - the dirty arab-dog worshipping, "mirzai"-sputtering traitor urstruly, the half-brain masadi who couldnt write a non-abusive sentence if his life depended on it, and the man who gets his jollies by harassing women on chowk by calling them flatulent, fat, ugly etc. salim are all riled up at me.

I must be doing something right!!"}

Tahmed Sahib,
When three different people of varying perspectives can smell the same pile of crap and call it excrement, then it's called unanimity.

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Tahmed Sahib,
Sleep tight and don't let the ghosts of your victims torment you all night.

Tahmed Sahib,
You are a major disappointment in your childish and sophomoric expression of an otherwise tolerable perspective.

good night, you three losers. hope masadi gets nightmares of getting the bill from lulu.com, chowk.com and other free websites he has misused.

#145 dont write about your enlightened views and make up bs about my views. who do you think you are fooling? masadi? he is already a fool.

Tahmed Sahib,
I am against the Tally Ban. I detest Al Kaida. I blame the Pak Army for the mess our country finds itself in. I am against Mushy for being a lawbreaker, an opportunist, a dictator, and, worse of all, an incompetent buffoon who wasted a decade of Pakistan's short life. Despite all that, I am not going to voice my viewpoint in ethnic and racial slurs against Pathans, against Arabs, against Punjabis, or against Mohajirs. It is wrong to blame an entire group of people just because of your own personal problem with decency.