Indian Technical Recession

Reservation in Foreign Universities as well

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/news/india/Foreign-universities-need- to-adhere-to-quota-laws-Sibal/articleshow/5061617.cms

Hi (tehsin,nkg and those who contributed)

This interaction over last week was very useful. Some excellent suggestions have come up. We need to try them. But it may be a few months, if not years before we get anywhere. It is still worth it as we would have acheived something instead of giving opinions and criticizing others. In any case this is what the engineering spirit is about. It is a live subject and may take active participation on what will be happening over coming months.

To follow up and keep building on what we discussed, we invite you to on IIT EU website (www.iit-eu.com), it is totally benevolent and no contributions are required.

regards...
contd...
that is, what the pro-reservation lobby says, everytime people try to bring the subject of merit...

Re: # 144
Tehsin...
How many factories you will find in Rural India?
Most of our villages are agrarian and if you look for factory, you will find some Rice Mills and PWD workshops at best...70% of Indian population depends upon agriculture...If you introduce something of this sort ( shop floor training), we have to establish many factories in rural india...
Now the question is, how many people from rural areas get chance in IITs? Very less...Unless and until you are trained by certain coaching centres, it will be very difficult...And the irony is that, these coaching centres put that info proudly in public domain..after every year, Brilliant and other coaching centres publish list of their successful candidates...

#137 Posted by Regards

I am happy to contribute anytime just let me know how I can. Thanks!

#139 Posted by Sidhu_Jyatha

Please don’t underestimate the ingenuity of the Indian public. Once they realize that they need to have their kids have apprenticeships they will line up to have their local factories approved as registered training sites. This is where the IIT alumni especially those who are retired or of retirement age could provide invaluable help. They could help in making sure that a case is made to the factory owners that they will get free (if not, highly subsidized) labor that they could use as apprentices. The IIT alumni from the area could also be used to keep a watch on them to make sure that the process runs correctly and if not the apprentices or the factories get rejected.

Regards ji
I am no IITian but know IITians who graduated 28 years back. As per their assertion, IITs makes Technologists and not engineers. So, they are trained to think and find solutions but that does not mean actually going to the level of screws and bolts.

#139 Sidhu_Jyatha

I think given the massif infrastructure development requirements, it will be very difficult for the goverment to ignore civil engineers.

Ultimately solution for all this is to cut down profit taking by the banks which will necessarily bring down salaries in banking.

IT industry is self destructive. With time it will come down to an auto-managed level.

I don't see any shortage of a primary level of work in India,even for a few hundred thousand students. In Europe, students work for 2 months as labour in house building etc.

#139 Sidhu_Jyatha

I think given the massif infrastructure development requirements, it will be very difficult for the goverment to ignore civil engineers.

Ultimately solution for all this is to cut down profit taking by the banks which will necessarily bring down salaries in banking.

IT industry is self destructive. With time it will come down to an auto-managed level.

I don't see any shortage of a primary level of work in India,even for a few hundred thousand students. In Europe, students work for 2 months as labour in house building etc.

#112 nkg
"I have seen in my school days "section" system...where, the top 10/20 students used to be part of A section and attended by different set of teachers....
May be IITs have to create sections, based on first sem/second sem result...."

Sorry, I had missed your mail.

What you're suggesting is very valid. Infact IIT have already put a system in place where students coming through quotas end up spending 1-2 years just catching up. They spend usually 6 years instead of 4.

However this is still a loss of country resources as these 2 years need to be financed, especially as IIT requires students to be residents in the campus, there is a huge pressure on hostel accomodation. This in turn does not allow IIT to allow even bright students to take a year off and go for some industrial training as they can't be accomodated when they come back

Re: # 136
Tehsin...
Are you sure, India can provide factory shops to all IIT aspirants to try their hands?

Regards...
Much of the blame should go to Govt. than the students...
Most of my batchmates in Civil Engineering dept. joined TCS, as they were not getting decent job in respective field....
Our society does not value, those who are engaged in physical work....

#136 TehsinA

This one single suggestion justified this article. This is the first time I'm hearing of a suggesion which can change ground realities. Let me see how we can carry it forward without getting stuck in the vested interests of urban middle class.

Why don't you contribute in discussion on www.iit-eu.com. We have held many conferences, all with great promises of undertakings and mostly to get press head lines.

IIT undergrads of last 10 years or so have killed the reputation, earlier generations had built up of the name IIT. IITians today can't compete with graduates from neither fincancial nor management training schools. Once they have lost ground in engineering, they are as good as any university graduate. A deep change in the paradigm is in the cards, let us do what we can that it is for good.

#135 Posted by Regards

I think if we are clear that we have identified the problem correctly the solutions can be fairly simple.

Instead of having a rigorous theoretical exam for entrance to IITs a proposal for an apprenticeship component could do wonders to bringing in the right talent to the forefront. Make it a requirement that a year or six month’s factory floor internship is a prerequisite and recommendations received from a worker, a floor supervisor, a shop steward, a manager etc. would count towards your marks for the entrance exam. Here too proper weight should be given to apprenticeships not necessarily in the most modern facilities but those that are among the tougher environments to test the perseverance of the candidates.There can be steps taken to make sure that the process is fair.

Such a single step could have a remarkable effect on the whole process. Suddenly rural candidates and those from lower classes would be empowered. A leveling of the playing field would bring forth the best talent the country can muster suited for developing an industrial and post industrial society.

#126
"You anyway are wrong to expect an IIT to produce engineers working in technical jobs.. IITs are supposed to promote research and higher studies/innovations/patents/Noble laureates (may be).."

I'm surprised at your statement. IIT were designed to produce engineers in the first place and not PhD's like IISc. IIT were producing world class undergrads till 80's. No more.

I think I'm wrong and Manus and Tehsin are right. It is probably not worth putting in effort to enhance career prospects of IIT grads as engineer, if they do not even consider themselves as engineers. Like Manus is saying only those who have put in 2000 hours of public service and have shown a streak of gratitude towards a poor nation which has paid dearly, over 3000 crores rupees every year, should deserve the right of having an investment in career.

To correct all those arrogant brats, who think it was their birth right to be educated on public money, just because their parents could finance prep schools, Government should consider a pay back scheme of not only what was invested but also a strong penalty for the delayed growth of the country.

This article is here as a reminder that don't count on young IITians to have any sense of shame. All they see is money like the banks where they work. It is better that government puts proper control on the earnings and commissions offered by banks, and ... everywhere in the world.

Riaz: I think you're right. It is better you wait for Pakistan. When it comes selfishness and pomposity, Indians have no equal. Wait till we have first results from what we're trying. Any solution which works in India will work in your country too.

#132 Posted by IE

“there must have been some historical natural factors on demand side… Though, ideally one would expect a balance among all the sectors,…… Lastly, If one can take it lightly, hasn't 'Jihad' gained the same repute in 'masses of pakistan' because societies there are driven by military, xenophobia and hatred towards everything non-muslims!!”


The historical factors that you mention are similar to the ones you associate with Jihad having proclivity with the ‘masses of pakistan’. Now if we tried to explain away Jihad as just a problem of youth unemployment wouldn’t that be disingenuous? But you answered your own point that ‘one would expect a balance among all sectors’.

Just as an aside, most of my friends happen to be engineers mostly from Pakistan and India (one is an IITian from Kharakpur). Let me tell you except for two none can hammer a nail into a wall. I am certain that they can describe in great detail the casting of the screw and the reasoning behind rough or fine thread, but they are entirely useless on job sites or even in the way their homes look. They definitely do not inspire confidence in me that I should hire them because they don’t enjoy the whole process. On the other hand any IT guy from the subcontinent, you can’t keep him away from the computer. He would work on it regardless whether he is getting paid or not, he just enjoys it and spends all his waking moments playing with it. That is the difference. On the other hand all Polish engineers that I know - they live their engineering. There homes are immaculate, with everything optimized for energy saving and efficiency and they spend most of their times in their home workshops or in the yard fixing things. Where as our desi engineers their homes are as unkempt as those of bankers and you can’t tear them away from their computers. This imbalance has to be mended if we are ever to have a robust industrial sector.