Book Review: The Shadow of the Great Game – The Untold Story of India’s Partition

#296 SPY

[1. What you have told about the TV watching is perception and that is what anyone will conclude.]

Idiotic comments always drive me up the wall, because responding in a civil manner is very difficult. But I'll try.

When you see that there are beards and skullcaps in the crowd, and when the TV reporter mentions it specifically, HOW is that "perception"? Eh?

[I liked that you do more of research and think. Dont just bank upon a few persons like Rai or Barkha to conclude. Carry on and you will be surprised to find the results.]

I like your patronizing attitude. Attitude is all people have left when they have run out of arguments. "Carry on and you will be surprised to find the results" is not exactly the most persuasive argument. You have to try harder.

[You are putting words in my mouth. I just want to convey that I have a different way of thinking i.e. factual rather than emotional. You are reading too much between the lines, than what is intended.]

Nope that's EXACTLY what it means. Most Indians are emotional fools but you are not.

Re: # 298 nkg: Regarding buddhism or the caste / varna divisions in the Indian society, it was our problem and our weak spot that allowed the foreigners to take advantage.

Good we agree on this point.

Regarding animal sacrifice, I also personally dislike it. But things are changing. I have a few can muslims as neighbours residing in the new colonies and they do not follow this practice. I believe in th enext 20 years things would definitely change for better for all in India.

Re: # 297
SPY...
That may not be entirely true...
After the spread of Buddhism, Indian social structue broken down little bit and thus external invaders were able to cause meyhem...

Related to, allowing moslems to live like them...it is very difficult, when you are living in a vibrant culturaly rich society...
One example will be enough...
The bali or animal sacrifice has been stopped as part of religious tradition in India after later period of vedic age...we have learned to treat animals with respect and realised the futility of killing animls to please the so called GOD, long time ago...but, when you see the same barbarism is being practised in your neighbourhood, you are bound to dislike it....that is how, we ordinary mortals react....

Re: # 287 nkg says "muslaism is inferrior and alien concept in India...indian society is traditional but open..."

Historically the Indians were financially rich but politically and militarily weak. With the muslims it was opposite. In the end the military superiority and the knowledge of "what works" prevailed over the financial and cultural strength.

Do not be selective trying to judge the superiority, inferiority from just your view, but see the big picture and how it is seen by the world or still rather by the history.

Re: # 293 Ajeya: I appreciate your responses, although we still differ.

1. What you have told about the TV watching is perception and that is what anyone will conclude. I liked that you do more of research and think. Dont just bank upon a few persons like Rai or Barkha to conclude. Carry on and you will be surprised to find the results.

2. "You may not have used the word "stupid", but that's exactly what you are saying - most Indians are stupid, but you are not." - You are putting words in my mouth. I just want to convey that I have a different way of thinking i.e. factual rather than emotional. You are reading too much between the lines, than what is intended.

Re: # 289 nkg says "an enemy residing outside your house is easier to handle, than living within your house.... "

There may be some rotten apples, but all are not bad. What do you say about people like Kalam, Shahrukh khan, Azharuddin, Mohammed Shahid, Azim Premji.

Re: # 288 nkg: See my responses to each of your points -

"1. those who accept alient tribal arab culture as guiding principle of their lives are nothing other than stupids and short sighted."
- Why do you worry about others, what culture/principles they follow, weather it is local (Indian) or outside India based etc. Each person is free to adopt whatever he / she likes it. Stupidity or short sightedness has no relation to it. Borrowing from your response#287, I fully agree that the Indian society/culture is so open and accommodating. When we have adopted from so many different past civilizations/cultures, than why have grouse while adopting a few things from the Arabic/muslim culture. I would like to thank them for teaching us how to be worldly wise especially "what works - courtsey DM".

"2. More muslas within India would have been bigger source of trouble. Muslas were much more intolerable before Brits arrived and you should read AnandaMath by B C Chatterjee. With arab money pouring in, one Hyderabad and couple of cities in UP is causing hell lot of problem for us. What do you feel entire Pakistan would have caused for us?"
- I agree and disagree to parts of your paragraph. I agree that it was good that pakistan / Bangladesh were created out of United India and it helped India get rid of those people who did not believe in secularism and democracy. My disagreement starts when we start equating the "entire Indian muslim population ", as intolerant and problem creators etc. I strongly believe every Indian muslim who is loyal to India has equal rights, duties, freedom in India as any other religion followers. That is the foundation principle of our country and makes us different from our neighboring countries. Regarding the problem of Hyderabad/UP cities you mentioned, the corrective action needs to be put on both sides. Gradually this problem is getting under control, compared to 20 years back. After about 20 years this may not remain a problem.

"4. Regarding defence cost, suppose Pakistan would not have been there. Is that reason enough to dismantle defence of a huge nation like India?"
- Age old principle: A nation gets respect when it is strong and powerful. Hence India needs to have a strong defence to get its rightful place in the world. Unfortunately we are lowering ourselves to a local / sub-continent level by engaging too much with pakistan. The real challenge / fight in future will be with China and we are ill prepared for that.

#284 Posted by SPY

[Re: # 281 Ajeya: I have given enough pointers in my earlier post#280 for you to do the internet search and reach the conclusions.]

Have been traveling all weekend. So getting back now.

I can also ask you to do an internet search on why "liberal intellectuals" should be tarred and feathered and frog-marched across the border into Pakiland, and ask you to Google the internet to find out why. But in an argument, asking someone to do the research and find out why he is wrong is a losing proposition.


[Giving one references:
http://www.india-seminar.com/1999/483/483%20rai.htm

Bhiwandi Riots (1970): Hindu, Muslim
Arrested in cognisable substantive offences 21 901
Casualties 17 59

Meerut Riots (1982): Hindu, Muslims
Arrested in cognisable substantive offences 124, 231
Casualties 2, 8

Number of persons killed in police firing:
Place Hindu Muslim
Bhiwandi (1970) nil 9
Firozabad (1972) nil 6
Aligarh (1978) nil 7
Meerut (1982) nil 6

I dont want to wash any more the dirty linen in public.]

YOU feel it is dirty linen. I do not. Because unlike fools who have knee-jerk reactions to statistics, I actually read up more on the issues, do some research, and actually THINK.

So let's take this example you gave.

In India, many Muslims, especially from the lower economic strata (those ore the ones always involved in riots) have the same attitude towards the police as Blacks in the USA have towards the police, especially in the inner-city neighborhoods. Police profile Blacks - because for whatever reason, statistically, they commit most of the crimes, and therefore the Police are much hated in many parts of the black population . Likewise, the Indian police profile the Muslims - at least as far as terrorism related crimes are concerned - and therefore are looked upon by them as enemies. The fact that the vast majority in the Indian police are Hindus only serves to reinforce their world-view. If one looks at video images of riots in India that one sees on TV - one sees mobs throwing bricks and such at the Police in riot gear. Almost always the ones throwing the bricks are Muslims. It is no surprise then, that more Muslims are arrested, or killed in firing. You would be hard pressed to answer the question as to why, if the police are so biased, why Hindus are shot at, killed, and arrested by the police at all.

And the author, Bibhuti Narain Rai, along with Barkha Dutt and similar characters are just "liberal intellectuals" who have found the best way possible of furthering their careers. Anyone in India who can show Hindus in a bad light immediately shoots to fame, is awarded millions of medals by the Sonia government, and rewarded profusely with money, awards and citations by organizations around the world. Bibhuti Narain Rai has said a thousand convenient lies, and has been profusely rewarded in India and abroad.

[I had so many discussions with many indians and pakis and many times even disagreed completely, but I have never believed or called them to be stupid, nor they have used this term.]

Yes you most certainly have. Let's see what you wrote earlier:

"Most Indians do not take the past on face value, but are always fantasizing the Hindu/Muslim and India/Pak/Bangla relations the way they wanted it to be.

Some people have Extreme emotions of nothing-to-with-them approach, hate filled, smarting at the loss of land to Pak/Bangla, always bring up the baggage of the 1000 years past to rouse passions. Mostly the BJP walas fall in this category. The second category goes to the other extreme of mourning the loss of brothers in Pak and Bangladesh as estranged sons or a younger brother in a family, while trying to bury the ugly past to show everything was honky-dory and it will be all good if we were one or if we reunite etc. Mostly the congress and so called secularists fall in this category.

I fall in the third category. I have no hate or love oozing for the Pak / Bangla people and would like to treat them as any other countrymen in the world. "

You say "Most Indians" "do not take the past on face value" but instead "are always fantasizing the Hindu/Muslim and India/Pak/Bangla relations the way they wanted it to be". But YOU, personally: "I fall in the third category. I have no hate or love oozing for the Pak / Bangla people and would like to treat them as any other countrymen in the world."

You may not have used the word "stupid", but that's exactly what you are saying - most Indians are stupid, but you are not.


[Anyhow now I understand why Pew responded in #32 that way. ]

It is no coincidence that you and Pew "Research" see eye-to-eye.

Re: # 250
dm...
"And as far as hindus' respect for Christianity is concerned, you may be right but the Christians of Orissa may beg to disagree with you...."
they will not disagree too...
The issue in Orissa is something different, and they know, what is the reason behind the riots.....

Re: # 166
rauiz haq...
On what authority Ms. Sengupta was speaking, we don't know, but that would have caused more problem for India...the best bet is to convince or use US to pressurize Pakistani armed forces to kill their own jihadi brothers....and then see the magic.....

Re: # 263
haneef...
before killing the houseowner ( arabs) kill his pet dogs(pakis)....that will make their (NATO) task easy...otherwise,pakis will bark loudly and may try to bite NATO....

#288 contd...
an enemy residing outside your house is easier to handle, than living within your house....

Re: # 279
SPY...
Muslas starts most of the riots, and then they end up in the receiving end...

couple of things you should agree

1. those who accept alient tribal arab culture as guiding principle of their lives are nothing other than stupids and short sighted.

2. More muslas within India would have been bigger source of trouble. Muslas were much more intolerable before Brits arrived and you should read AnandaMath by B C Chatterjee. With arab money pouring in, one Hyderabad and couple of cities in UP is causing hell lot of problem for us. What do you feel entire Pakistan would have caused for us?

3. Border of political entities change with time. But to accomodate muslas, if you need to abundone much of the rich Indian heritage,cultutre and ethos India would have been in much more trouble.

4. Regarding defence cost, suppose Pakistan would not have been there. Is that reason enough to dismantle defence of a huge nation like India?

Re: # 237
dm...
muslaism is inferrior and alien concept in India...any sane person should not allow it to be in india...don't say indians are averse to foreign ideas or forms close society....
for centuries, indians adopted greek, chinese, far eastern and even some middle eastern (egyptian) knowledge and ideas...indian society is traditional but open...but, how can you accept midieval barbaric tribal culture, within this 3000 year old civilization? it is almost normal to keep muslas and their barbaric/dirty habits away from our society....
i am sure, if people of europe and usa knows true nature of islam and musla societies, they will be far more intolerent towards muslas/muslaism/islam than indians....

#283 Posted by tahmed32 on October 7, 2009 8:31:48 pm

prophet tahmed(pbuysrr): What about the McChrystal report and other articles that say elements of your army/isi are backing the taliban? and the US authorities don't trust them...

Re: # 240 tahmed32: I fully agree with you. Accept the past as facts rather than emotions and move on.