Book Review: The Shadow of the Great Game – The Untold Story of India’s Partition

#155 Posted by RiazHaq

[Let's not forget, it was Kiyani's unambiguous warning of swift response, heard loud and clear in Delhi after Mumbai last year, that deterred Indian air strikes in Pakistan.]

That's the wet dream. But the truth is that the US and it's NATO allies would not have let India do anything. For India there are too many economic interests are at stake. India has to grow to the strength, both economically and militarily, like China, to be able to do what she wants regardless of external pressures.

If India has a free hand, Paki conventional forces are irrelevant, as is their nuclear forces - if India declares a no-first strike policy.

Re: # 143 Matrix, What you are offering is speculation, not real data. The Israelis (and their American funders, as well as Indian followers) are developing a much more sophisticated system than the US Patriot system. Both Indians and Israelis have already begun testing the new system.

As to the cruise missiles ability to avoid detection, these missiles do not have the range of the medium and long range ballistic missiles to hit targets deep inside enemy territory.

The one possible way to defeat such a system is to have larger numbers (with some decoys) to penetrate enemy defenses and hit targets.

The downside for Pakistan of not doing anything in response to the Indian missile shield is to throw away its current nuclear or even conventional ballistic missile deterrent and invite Indian aggression after potential Mumbai-style terror attacks in future by any group of terrorists with or without links in Pakistan.

It is not a secret that Indians suffer from "Israel envy", as described by Sashi Tharoor, and many Indians would like nothing better than to "do a Lebanon", as described by Pankaj Mishra, if they can do so without paying a heavy price.

Let's not forget, it was Kiyani's unambiguous warning of swift response, heard loud and clear in Delhi after Mumbai last year, that deterred Indian air strikes in Pakistan.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

Arjun:

Uninviting Wasim Akram is politics of the worst kind. Nothing to write home about.

attaboy indian government...next step...no visas for the paki rats who come to india for medical treatment..

Akram can't do commentary in Champions League: Indian government
KARACHI: Former Pakistan captain and expert commentator Wasim Akram has been denied permission by the Indian government to do commentary in the Champions League tournament starting in India from October 8.

According to a newspaper report, Wasim, who was in Johannesburg covering the Champions Trophy was all set to fly to India for his fresh stint in the Champions League T20 tournament.

"But, at the last moment, he was informed by the tournament organisers that his services were no longer required," the report said.

"Wasim was surprised to learn about this and was later explained unofficially that the Indian Cricket Board had told the organisers to avoid inviting Wasim to India because of policy instructions from the government," the report added.

Interestingly, Wasim was invited by the Pakistan Cricket Board to supervise a coaching camp for the fast bowlers, in Lahore, in October but he had declined the offer due to his commentary commitments in the Champions League tournament.

The former fast bowling great had told reporters in Johannesburg that before planning to set up any camp or inviting him, the Pakistan board should atleast find out from the players what their commitments were.

The report said that the Indian government had apparently advised the BCCI that since no Pakistani player or team was featuring in the Champions League, it should avoid inviting Pakistani cricketers to India.

However, the report didn't clarify whether Wasim would still be going to India to hold a short coaching camp for the Kolkata Knight Riders players.

Wasim had told reporters in Johannesburg that he had been asked by the KKR management to hold the camp when he visited India for the tournament.

Relations between Pakistan and India have been at a low ebb ever since the Mumbai terror attacks last November.

#132 Posted by bulleya on October 4, 2009 12:29:00 am


...if pakistan had nuclear weapons in 1971, do you think india would have been successful in dividing the country into two?


capt clueless...you have nukes now, right? but your country is still divided into two..the vast majority of the country controlled by the jihadis..and the part controlled by the paki army...

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Re: # 149
Ahmed Sahib
I find it a rather freeing experience for Pakistanis that the omni-potent powers of the military over the country has been curtailed and shared by US. The military generals have more than the attention of US now. US establishing itself in Islamabad might bring an adverse reaction from generals but the political activists and intellectuals belonging to smaller provinces of Pakistan look at it as a chance to arbitrate for the rights they were denied in 62 years. So please do not consider my observation as a call to arms for Pakistanis. As a matter of fact I think there is opportunity to disarm most of this good-for-nothing army that eats up our resources. As for the fortresses, these are the new bastion of US power in Asia and the US intention of accomodating China and India alongwith European allies could bring peace and development in the region. Pakistan army generals creating nuisance over this new order do not matter much as you pointed out they sought US attention themselves after Afghan-Soviet war.

and if you remain unconvinced by what i say in #148 - explain to me about how before 9/11 the same Pakistani generals who talk this big talk on TV about US plans on Pakistan were howling about the US having deserted Pakistan!!

maliksahib #146: please let go of the stupid, Pakistani idea that the US needs Pakistan and Afghanistan as "fortresses". The only value Pakistan and Afghanistan have as far as the US is concerned is nuisance value - i.e. in harboring half-brained arabs who think that by killing airline passengers and by destroying buildings they can destroy a nation.

RiazSahib #142 I have read about India trying to set up a missile shield with help from Israel. If India jumps into a well (per the urdu saying), we dont need to do the same. By this logic, we should also have started building nuclear subs and aircraft carriers with help from China.

As the prophet said - the pen is mightier than the sword. Particularly if you have a nuclear weapon that you can make clear you are going to use either on the battlefield or (better yet) on the heads of any Indian government stupid enough to try to translate the dreams of 1947-denying Indians by trying to attack Pakistan.

So let us spend scarce resources on teaching Pakistanis how to use the pen. Let Indians build as many nuclear-sub-to-nowhere and nuclear-shields-that-fool-no-one.

With 3 new fortresses in Asia(Baghdad, Kabul and Islamabad), US has marked its territory with a promise to work with emerging powers of China and India. This article analyses the inception of Pakistan as a defense strategy by the British against Russian expansion. In somewhat loose political analogy we could say 'Raj' is back. Pakistan army has served US interests during cold-war but now US is in the region to stay and forward its own interest. From this point on Pakistan may find promotion of its own defence synchronising with US needs. If missile shield is needed in future, US is more likely than China to build and install it for Pakistan or it could be a future Sino-US perfected and tested missile-shield. I agree with Ahmed sahib that Pakistan should focus on education and development rather than wasting public money on defence against India while it turns into a satellite with significant US presence.

Re: # 142

Riaz sahib:

You are making one of the most fundamental mistake to propogate your hatred toward India and Pakistani democracy and awam. The mistake is that you are assuming that India will deliver that silver bullet with the precision to hit the incoming bullet. Israelie defense sheild was rendered ineffective against erratic Scud missiles, which were more effective.

India should create as much disinformation and feed it to you and your ilk in Pakistani paranoia that they divert precious funds to fund their shields. Ronald Regan proved it is the economic power that gives ability to up the stakes is the most potent weapon. But then Riaz mian and his ilk will never understand this to India's advantage. RAW should seek out people like you to feed disinformation frenzy, if you ask me. You are such a sucker for it.

Re: # 132

Romair:

"...if pakistan had nuclear weapons in 1971, do you think india would have been successful in dividing the country into two?.."

There is a major anamoly in your pre-supposition here. The country was not divided by India. It was divided by treatment of Bengalis, and arrogance of Punjabis. There is so much on the record. India acted opportunistically, like any other country or non-state actors would do and are doing even right now in FATA/NWFP/Afghanistan. Might I add that if India does not shape up its policy in Indian Kashmir, the same may happen there too.

"...also, would be interested in your views on india's support of mukti bahani.....and its infiltrations into east pakistan....."

You may not recall but you and I have talked about Mukti Bahini. Your presumption that it was an Indian running dog is self-serving. It was a grass-root movement to begin with its origins in the reaction to actions of Punjabi Muslims in East Pakistan. India acted opprtunistically as anyone else would do and is doing in FATA/NWFP/Afghanistan and yes, even in Indian Kashmir.

Mukti Bahini's cause prevailed. They became heros, and not terrorists. You do not need to go to Bhagat Singh to see your reactions to Mukti Bahini to the futility of your arguments on that thread to define heros and terrorist in absolute terms.

BTW, I watched this action as a student in England in the front center seat. This was the most covered war in British newspapers and TV. I was one of the witness. Pakistani spin will no work on me. I know even Anthony Mascerhenhas (?sp) like prominent non-Muslim Pakistani journalists quit in disgust. You can read eye witness reports in the archives of British, French and American newspapers, newsmagazines and TV.

Just to add a few ignored factors regarding missile shields.
1. It is ineffective against ground hugging cruise missiles.
2. Can’t distinguish between decoys and real bombs.
3. An early above ground Electro-magnetic generating explosion would destroy or reduce the effectiveness of missile shield.

Why go for expensive options when few more bombs and missiles would do the trick.

Re: # 135 Ahmed Sahib, From your comments it's clear to me that you have neither studied the issues nor thought through the implications of an Indian missile shield.

First, if India has the missile shield and Pakistan does not, what does that do to the Pakistan's minimal nuclear deterrence against India?

Second, it is commonly accepted by experts that the missile shield can be effective against an enemy with a small number of warheads. That's the basis for the US-Israeli joint effort, mostly funded by the US, to develop Arrow missiles as deterrent against "rogue states", currently defined as Iran and North Korea, with a small number of missiles. In fact, Obama has nit abandoned the Missile shield as erroneously believed, it has essentially outsourced it to Israel, but it is fully funded by Americans.

Third, as India works closely with Israel to develop and deploy Arrow clone system (effectively a US funded system), Pakistan has to to find a way to neutralize it to maintain its nuclear deterrence against India. The only known way to do that is to significantly increase its nuclear-ballistic missile arsenal and, if necessary, develop and deploy its own missile shield.

Fourth, the Chinese would probably be just as concerned with the Indian missile shield as Pakistanis are. So, there is a natural possibility here to counter the US-inspired Indian-Israeli missile shield by a joint Chinese-Pakistani missile shield.
Riaz Haq, PakAlumni Worldwide

139 DM

Fully agree. It was NOT a legal requirement. It just turned out that way.