An Hour at Datta Darbar

all respacted: nice conversation and thanks to madam bushara to start such kind of conversation one thing i have to clear all of u that dat ghanj bakhas do the works in his life and these works ur GOD can,t do.

Zahra:

Good to see you alive and well. be well.

Urstruly ji
I won't like to bog you down with question after question because this is unending exercise. While your arguements in # 26 are pretty convincing, facts on the other hand are different.
If God is so much caring about having direct contact with humans (and I am sure he can and should) he would not have used 'Gibreel' as intermediary to pass on this message which he could have done directly on his own being omni potent etc etc.
Further, I wonder how humans as per Islamic instructions can have direct access to God when he has already closed door after pasing on the message and now human following Islam can claim to have vision of The Almighty only at the risk of death.
And I am not sure but I think somewhere it is mentioned that Mr. Muhammad will be playing the role of intermediary on Judgement day.
And so on, I can give more examples too.
I must assure you that to me Mr. Muhammad was a genius because he created such a system of absolute control and ensuring no competition and escape for followers in future too in case they want. I also accept that no believer wants to escape or leave either because of spiritual as well as non-spiritual reasons. But somewhere I think he should have left some room for some evolution and experimentation.

Regards

hamidm ji
I don't think Urstruly being an intelligent person will ever give that arguement about it being business because it will be worse then shirk. It is like misleading people for ones own benefit and taking them away from monotheism etc etc and so acceptance of that logic wont be there.
Regards

Bushra - Hi. Glad to read that your visit was free of any hassles. I have read and heard that even in the House of God, there are people who are busy in stealing chappals/shoes of the worshippers. The prevalent practices are not surprising at all. These shrines are supposed to serve as sanctuaries, but are devoid of the required and needed sanctity. There is too much shor sharaa'ba. Thanks for sharing a personal account. Probably the excessive usage of loud speakers should be made to jolt the conscience of the pickpockets and thieves vs. alerting the visitors:)

Re: # 27
you want to defend your faith with rational reasoning..fine. Let others keep their faith with THEIR rational reasons...if these reasons were clear enough for either party, they would be accepted and applied by most.
God did create the universe...that's my faith. who created God? that i leave to the irrationality in my argument..therefore my faith doesn't have to be 'correct', just MY FAITH.

Re: # 26

urstruly,

..... so who is going to hell - you?

Re: # 24 rhussain

Talking about rationality and irrationality, if we go by your logic I think what would really be rational will be the assertion that a burger can eats up a man instead of a man eating a burger. By saying that the universe can come into being by itself without a Creator is totally akin to saying that a burger can eat a man.

Humsab:

"And I can't understand the reason of Allah's envy, jealousy and ego in respect of not having any intermediaries ......."

Let me help you understand the concept of itercessors in Islam with an example from military. Any military in the world has a very rigid chain of command. A soldier is prepared to lay down his life at the command of his immediate superior. The superior takes his orders from his superiors until the buck stops at C-in-C. The overwhelming number of casualties that happen in the battlefield are that of the soldiers. As the rank goes up the casualty ratio falls sharply. A C-in-C is almost certainly never gets killed. Despite the fact that a soldier is the ultimate tool to carry the will of a C-in-C, a soldier never gets a chance to talk to C-in-C in person and vice versa. An absolute majority of soldiers retire or expire out of service without even meeting the man who has so much power over their destiny. In other words, a soldier has no or very little realtionship to C-in-C and vice versa.

If we extrapolate this example to those religions that promote intercessors, itermediariaries, prohits, pandits, ayatullahs, pirs, and Popes, it is no brainer to see that the relationship of a human being to his Creator is just like the military. Ordinary human beings are menatlly conditiooned to believe that they are not worthy of having a direct relationship with God. So an ordinary human being must reach to God through these self-appointed "customer service representatives".

Islam on the other hand is the most radical of all religions, that, it eliminates, the need for any and all intermediaries. Every human being is directly responsible for his own actions and evey human being will be judged by Him individually. Hence each individual has the direct connection with One Creator.

Having said that, Islam, tells us about God who is above all human emotions - such us jealousy, hate, love, and anger. God is not like us. He is Absolute. Having such emotions or having human like attributes contradict and nullify His being Absolute. So when God talks about His wrath or bliss, He is only using human "language" so that we may understand. A bad deed has bad consequences - we associate bad consequences with pain and suffering and good consequence with bliss and prosperity. Hence by recognizing the fact that God does not need our worship, He does not need our prayers and He does not need our sacrifices, we do ourselves a favor. The worship, the prayer, and the sacrifice is meant only and only for the betterment of human being itself. Doing that will bring us the bliss and not doing them will bring us pain and suffering. These are the rules that He has set up for our existence.

'

The fact is that Faith is not based on facts or rational thought and it shouldn't be for then it will not be 'Faith' simply 'science' and with enough evidence everyone will agree on it and apply it to various life situations.
Some people like to ridicule others' faith based on rational arguments, then faithful end up justifying their beliefs insisting those are rational. Neither the accusers leave faithful alone, nor faithful concede that their faith is irrational as if irrational also means untrue or stupid.
I saw venomous comments ridiculing GaNesh's story and there are plenty comments that accuse Muhammad of various 'crimes'. Khayyam says " kaee bekhabaran raah na aan ast o na een "

Re: # 22

humsa mian,

..... If Mr. Muhammad's family was custodian of Kaaba with all those 300+ idols then how were they mohids i.e monotheist as per this term's interpretation of the word by Believers?

.... excellent point! ...... but i am sure that urstruyly will say that there is no contradiction - just because you own a bar or a brothel does not mean that you drink or sample the goods ...... for muhammad (pbuhahc) and his and his family , the kaaba was just a business and it doesn't mean that they themselves were worshipping the idols inside ....... bidness is bidness and as urstruly has said he was one heck of a businessman before he reinvented the kaaba .......

Urstruly ji

Thanks for your elaborate response.
Don't you think there is inherent contradiction in your arguement? If Mr. Muhammad's family was custodian of Kaaba with all those 300+ idols then how were they mohids i.e monotheist as per this term's interpretation of the word by Believers? Rest assured I am not disputing facts you have given. I am only trying to state that overtime people can always find some answers some where in acts of venerable people who existed long time back.

And your arguement of going to distant mountain place for meditation is not much of a supporting evidence because Meditation is supposed to be done in isolated solitary place to avoid disturbance. If you get some time and you don't find it betraying your belief, you may look into some sources to find the method of meditation of you ancestors of more then 1000 years back. Rishi Munis in this land used to go to forest for this pupose. Even in present time, people do it in places which are quiet and peaceful. Best time for this is supposed to be early mornings when people at large have not woken up.

And I can't understand the reason of Allah's envy, jealousy and ego in respect of not having any intermediaries when he himself used Gibreel as intermediary to convey the message. If people can have their peace without intermediary, that should be fine but if they use intermediary then I don't think it is such an issue that God starts feeling so insecure that he grants eternal damnation. Somehow, considering the role that God has bestowed on himself through his message, this kind of insecurity makes him look a little too vulnerable.

Regards

Hamidm ji
Thanks but I didn't need courage to ask those questions because I am not a Believer. I also live in a society which with all its flaws still allows criticism of the icons etc.

And that is why I admire you because you make your points even when you go right in the den many times in a year.

Kudos to you, Sir.

Re: # 17 Hamsab

Much research has been done on the subject of the religion of the parents of Holy Prophet (pbuh) and even his first wife, whom he married about fifteen years before he was bestowed with the burden of prophethood. Very little is known about his parents, but Muslim scholras have drawn inferences from historical records that Prophet's (pbuh) parents were Mohid. The word Mohid means exactly the monotheists, But specifically Mohids in that era were those people who were said to follow the religion of Abraham (pbuh). So an alternate term Deen-e-Ibarhimi is also used interchangeably with the phrase Mohid.

As far as Holy Prophet (pbuh) is concerned, he was absolutely a Mohid before and after his Prophethood. Throughout his life no one ever accused him that until the 2/3rd of his life he was worshiping idols and one day it dawned upon him that there was only One God. Not even his worst enemies have accused him of abndoning his 'previous gods'. He is never said to have performed Hajj before his Prophethood. And the biggest evidence is that, his house was at the door step of Kaaba; his family was the custodian of Kaaba, and yet he used to go 3.5 km out of the city to meditate in the cave Hira. He was a man destined from childhood to become the most extra-rdinary human being in the history of mankind. He was destined to lay down the foundations of a new civilization. When Allah chooses the one who is destined to lead humanity, He bestows him with a character that no one can dare challenge. That is the reason, when Holy Prophet (pbuh) presented his religion first time to the Meccans, he gathered them outside of the city. He said "Would you believe me if I told you that there is an army behind that mountain about to attack you". The response from the Meccans was, of course we will believe you because we have always found you Sadiq (truthful) and Amin (honest and trustworthy custodian). Interestingly enough, the titles Sadiq and Amin were ghiven to Holy Prophet (pbuh) by Meccans before his prophethood, because of his honest business dealings for the past 20 years, when he started his business life.

This was my first piece of writing at Chowk, I had no clue that it would generate such interesting debates. Thankyou every one for taking out the time to read and comments. More to come!