The White Rose

Re: # 145

you feel better now, don't you? lol

zee bhai, here is another gem from your Maudoodi. As one can see, problem lies with your own ullema … Ahmadis are just a bunch of nice people who mind their own business …

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Foreign policy and jihad

“Human relations are so integrated that no state can have complete freedom of action under its principles unless the same principles are in force in a neighboring country. Therefore, both for its safety and the general reform, a “Muslim party” will not be content with the establishment of Islam in just one area alone. It should try to expand in all directions. On one hand it will spread its ideology, on the other it will invite people of all nations to accept its creed, for salvation lies only therein. If this Islamic state has power and resources it will fight and destroy non-Islamic governments and establish Islamic states in their place.”

Haqiqat-e-Jihad (Reality of Jihad); Lahore: Taj Company Ltd., 1964; page 64, 65

[The above statement is an open declaration of war against other nations. It essentially means that a strong Islamic nation is a sign of present and eminent danger for the neighboring non-Islamic states. Maudoodi tries to validate his interpretation by casting Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) as a person who declared war against other nations to subjugate them. Note the emphasis on unprovoked war … associated with the Prophet of Islam … whose sole aim supposedly was to seize power and rule over others. Maudoodi further states …]

“This was the policy which was adopted by the Prophet (pbuh) and his Rightly Guided Caliphs. Arabia, where the Muslims Party was first formed, was the first to be subdued. After this, the Prophet (pbuh) sent invitations to all neighboring countries, but did not wait to see whether these invitations were accepted. As soon as he acquired power, he started the conflict with Roman Empire. Abu Bakr became the leader of the Party after the Prophet (pbuh) and attacked both Roman and Persian Empires and Umar finally won the war”

Haqiqat-e-Jihad (Reality of Jihad); Lahore: Taj Company Ltd., 1964; page 64, 65

zee bhai ... as I pointed out on the other board, here it is again:

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Re #130:

Mirza forbade jihad against the British … and according to you, this makes him a British agent. Let’s take this line of reasoning further:

Jesus asked his people, who were ruled by the Romans, something similar … and told them to “give to Caesar what belongs to Caesar, and give to God what belongs to God”. He also asked his oppressed people to “turn the other cheek”.

Next, you’ll tell us that Jesus was a Roman agent !
(grin) …

zee bhai, others … for your reading pleasure:

Reforming ummah’s violent tendencies (sometimes disguised as Islamic jihad) is the cornerstone of Mirza Sahib’s mission. This reform pertains not only to fighting wars, but it changes one’s entire thinking about faith and belief in Allah Almighty.

Ullema nowadays are obsessed with political power of Islam … and seek sovereign authority to impose senseless and violent practices: Convert people to Islam with force, punish apostates by executing them, kill adulterers and blasphemers, drive out non-Muslims, and invade other nations due to their disbelief.

One needs to understand this fanaticism … in order to better appreciate the scope of Mirza Sahib’s mission. However, one does not need to accept Mirza as a prophet in order to appreciate this.

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Below is an excerpt on apostasy and state power from Maudoodi, a leading voice among the ullema:

“Whenever death penalty for apostasy is enforced in a new Islamic state, then Muslims are kept within Islam’s fold. But there is a danger that large number of hypocrites will live alongside them. They will always pose a danger of treason.

My solution to the problem is this. That whenever an Islamic revolution takes place, all non-practicing Muslims should, within one year, declare their turning away from Islam and get out of Muslim society. After one year all born Muslims will be considered Muslims. All Islamic laws will be enforced upon them. They will be forced to practice all of the obligatory duties (faraid) and optional duties (wajibat) of their religion and if anyone wishes to leave Islam, he will be executed. Every effort will be made to save as many people as possible from falling into lap of disbelief (kufr). But those who cannot be saved will be reluctantly separated from society forever. After this purification Islamic society will start afresh with Muslims who have decided voluntarily to remain Muslims.”

Maudoodi, Murtad ki saza Islami qanoon mein (“Punishment for Apostates in Islamic Law”), Lahore: Islamic Publications Ltd, 1950, page 80-81.

No zee bhai (re #151),

… you were in for more than the reforms debate - let’s be honest. Being a somewhat of a violent jihadi, you accused Mirza of being a British agent … with nothing to back up your claims.

It’s easy to tell one who has sincere inquiries … from one who is a jerk by disposition. You happen to fall in the latter category … which is just a fact of life. Nothing wrong with it ...

sattar Bhai,

I can understand that ... LOL

zee bhai, you may believe whatever you want to believe. I am hardly bothered … and will address Mirza Sahib as needed.

BTW, had you have been paying attention, you’d have realized that I have discussed Mirza’s reforms in much more details … as the issue came up. And it went beyond jihad … if knowing this turns you on.

It’s just that I think you are a whacko clown and I don’t take you seriously … that’s all. No hard feelings, I hope …

sattar Bhai,

I was only in for the 'reforms' debate.

Bye!

zee bhai, here’s more in response to your #147:

So the National Assembly devised its own mechanism to enforce what Quran does not give them the authority to do! Now, this would be very unIslamic, I’d reckon. No?

What’s next? The earth is flat? Or that to be a Muslim, one has to worship a camel?

We can have a lot of fun with this approach of yours …

sattar Bhai,

So I take it you accept cessation of Jihad (I say only against the British, you say against whomever, but never mind) was the ONLY and SOLE reform proposed by Mirza Bhai, and none other than this.

Thanks. I have my answer. That's all I wanted. Why didn't you say so in the first place?

zee bhai,

If reforming your ullema’s misguided jihad ideology is a major issue, and worthy of a prophet, why does this make Mirza a British agent??

Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) struck peace and compromises with Jews. Does this make him a Jewish agent??

Sir jee, you made a big accusation against Mirza on this one. Let’s see something to back it up.

I'll pause here and let it sink in a bit ...

#143 sattar,

Okay okay sattar Bhai, I'll answer your questions first:

And won’t you agree that this issue alone is a major one??
Yes this issue alone is a major one.

Where does Quran give the state the authority to enforce state’s definition of Muslim.
No it doesn't lay out the mechanism for enforcing state's definition of Muslim. The National Assembly devised the mechanism on its own.

Now can I FINALLY have my answer?

What other reform/s?

bhs...
look, now the source of violence is target of violence....
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/8316020.stm

#144 contd...
to bhs...
you know why Richard Armitage threatened to bomb Pakistan?
Pakistan as a nation was not behaving properly.....

Re: # 135
bhs...
we look around our yeard and don't see terrorists and nuicense creators everywhere, even if large number of people face extreame adversory ( including dalits)...the fact that, the current day Pakistan was once one of the most civilised places on earth, and now turned into herd of pets of arabs, disturbd little bit (Taxila University etc. with Indic connection). The most disturbing fact is, you are causing trouble to non beduinistic people!!!!

I was not surprised from your ranting against Indic culture...BTW, whatever stupid stuff we do, we evolve and refine it with our own way....
we don't import stupid stuff from far away land and cause destruction to support that stupidity....
and you are preaching to behave!!!!!! :-) ROTFL....

”…justifying the call for cessation of Jihad against the British …”


zee bhai, you still don’t get it … do you?

You are still hung up on the “British” part … and fail to appreciate the full scope of the entire jihad ideology. It affects not only the British issue … but Muslims in Palestine, Kashmir, Iraq, Afghanistan, to name a few places. It is your ullema’s jihad and emphasis on violence that is destroying the ummah from within.

Why can’t you accept this simple fact? And won’t you agree that this issue alone is a major one??

In the spirit of this Q&A, here’s what I’ve been asking you: Where does Quran give the state the authority to enforce state’s definition of Muslim.

Any answers??