Good Girls and Bad Postures

This is SUPER COOL!

Thank God and I should thank you for not being a sheep.

GO! GO! GO! You`ll bash `em all...!

Bilal

brilliant article but a few points.

in a family full of women, a young boy will feel as much ashamed of the way his organ behaves early in the morning, albeit unwillingly. he will stay in bed for as long as it takes.

in certain advertising offices in karachi, with women bosses and lots of female employees, dressed up to meet international standards, u will have guys who sit with legs crossed, speak politely and keep there distance while the women come on too strongly.

the shame young women feel bcoz of the way men`s eyes scan them in public wud be and is easily reciprocated in a situation where women are more in number and more powerful. interest in the opposite gender`s body is natural but to do it openly or shamelessly is a trait that will come with social dominance.

and bcoz most places in the world including pakistan are male dominated, all ills have to be their doing.

excellent piece....well written. by the was ur mother really that harsh on you ? :)
cheers
raza

Good article...Its about time that girls in our culture are made to feel proud of their bodies & not the other way around. I hope young parents get to read this article.

an excellent article! i commend the writer on her courage to talk so freely about a dilemma that every girl goes through...it is time atleast the upcoming mothers learn that they r to teach their daughters to be proud of their bodies and not ashamed of their sexuality! ofcourse that is not to say that they should flaunt it in public but they should stop feeling embarrassed about their bodies and learn to love them..after all, men do, so y cant women?

Jiyo- Bad Girl!

We need bold Pakistani women to come out and be confident of their bodies and their sexuality.

I salute you.

In the winter of 1997 on a particularly boring day at work someone sent me a link to this article. I had no idea what chowk was till then but I realized after reading this piece that I would be hooked. I read this article/memoir by bad girl, which still strikes a chord, still rings true, almost seven years later. So well written, such mastery over the language, bad girl why don`t you write on here any more?

Jawahara

I don`t know about you guys but I have started to believe in evolution. The girls in our family are born slouching and we all accept them as they are. May be years of preaching by our ancestors has built it in their genes.

However, to put the record straight, havent seen this preaching recently. I have seen so many up-standing, chest jumping, and hip swaying girls recently in other families` weddings and parties, I think times have changed. people have accepted the changes that are taking place. We, however, come to expect it.

I only go to those Mehndi`s where I know there will be a lot of hip swaying dances by family women (I mean the other families). Mine is still the conservative type.

The slouching, embarassed girls are only found in Khwateen Digest and the like magazines where this girl who is simple and does not actively participates in the function turns out to be the cinderella winning the heart of the prospective mother in law and her son. All the beauty and hip swaying efforts of the other girls go waste.

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You go Bad Girl! V. Good! *pat pat*
After reading this essay and the subsequent posts that followed, one phrase instantaneously entered my mind...Neil Armstrong saying one small step for man, a gigantic leap for mankind.

Bad Girl,

Brilliant.

...esp:``a museum for social morality`` . Look forward to reading more of your work!

Dear BG,

When i first read the piece, i loved it, and its still one of my all time favorite essays on Chowk. Now i miss reading your stuff since its been quite a while since you wrote anything for Chowk.

Hope you`ll write again!

Sincerely,

OMAR MIRZA

i have just finished reading ``Good Girls and Bad Postures`` and it`s very depressing to know about the way Paksitani women suffer

mentally,emotionally and physically at the of Pakistani society. i hope that we, Men in particular, realize the importance of women as human beings,give them

equal standing in the society and stop considering them a sexual object.

fahd ali

A great article. I was raised in Karachi and have been close to a lot of girls in that situation. I am a guy but know exactly the ``AMMI GLARE`` mentioned in the article. I noticed girls changing their attention and enthusiasm while talking to me as their ``ammi`` would give them a look. I am waiting for the day when everybody, including all men and women, are proud of their bodies and their endowments. It`s a gift from Allah to have a nice body and to be proud of it should be our goal. I think girls as well as boys in Pakistan should be openly told about their adolscent changes. They should be helped in dealing with them and dealing with situations created, maybe say, by developing breasts. I can say that the majority (not generalizing) of the pakistani girls before marriage, slouch, and after marriage or kids they stop thinking or caring about it and let it loose(which in itself is discouraging for a lot of men, including me).These are just a few thoughts, results of my many elaborate observations.

Your article struck a huge chord within me. I have also recently written - as a form of confession, a coming to terms within myself - about my sharam-conscious upbringing and the effect it has had on my attitude towards my body. From the time i physically matured, I have also felt your shame. My body`s doings became my own terrible, public secret - a secret that all my female family could talk about but none of the males must ever know. I think i may be over it now, but who can wipe out a whole childhood worth of beliefs so easily? My sexuality is a source of great ambivalence for me. Thank you for telling me i am not alone.

I have a submission to make. I have many Indian friends here in the States. During the course of my discussions with them , the following points were discussed.

1) Why is it that Islam should feel threatened if any individual or group casts aspersions on it. Surely there are rational ways of dealing with these situations rather than violence.

2) Why do Muslims complain about matreatment when they have benefits in other countries which is denied to minorities in their countries.

3) My friends say that in India muslims want to and have been buliding mosques in every street , does buiding mosques in every street alone define Islam.

I have been able to put across my point of view to them, but I would like the readers to respond to this.

Thanks

Hamdard

The entire article is really moving. Congratulations for being so bold and forthright. If each one of us can become bold like u, many of the maladies of our corrupt societies can be rectified. Keep on writing like this and sharing your frank views with like minded people in the Chowk.

Abizar

re azaad desi

great comments!

re slinkycow

point well taken.

I grew up in Lalukhait, Karachi - my friends called it Liaquatabad in the hope that this name will not carry the same connotations. Home of lower middle-class and mostly uneducated people this town had draconian rules for those girls. A brother of three young sisters and defender of their honor I can truly understand the thrust of the word ``besharam``. What gave me shudders though was the word ``beghairat``. As the Bara Bhai and the brother-of-the-house I had the responsibility that my sisters and my mother followed the strict social code. When they did not follow the rules the Bahi was declared begairat. And no Bhai wants to be begairat. This pressure would force the Bhai to demand that sisters abide by the rules.

The Bhai also has the responsibility to accompany sisters to wherever they had to go - for shopping, to the doctor, or to a friend. They could, however, go to school alone. Thankfully, the uniform served as the holy dress that gave them a license to walk the streets. Girls told me that they felt safer in the uniform - the dress gives them a legitimate reason to be out of the house. Otherwise they had to be accompanied by a man or a woman and dressed to the satisfaction of the surrounding social police. Walking with sisters is a practice that brothers despise. Since girls are not allowed to go alone they beg and plead with the Bhai and cover themselves appropriately when they go out with him. Making sure that no one is leering at your sisters as you walk the street is not an easy job for the Bhai. It is an agonizing trip. While we wanted to get it over with, the sisters seemed to enjoy the walk.

Despite such draconian environment my sisters were extraordinarily bold - they talked to boys when they had to or when they wanted to - a taboo in that environment. I on the other hand I was very shy (spine bent with the burden of shame!) - I will disappear at the sight of any girl in my house. I could not recognize any of my sisters` friends, never ogled girls, and kept my eyes down when talking to women. My sisters followed the rules just to get by and I followed the rules to become a nice guy. Social acceptance was my motivation for the behavior - I wanted to be a good boy and I became one - A pathetic product of an outdated social assembly line.

The brother, not only has to defend the honor of the family but also provide for them, arrange for dowry for his sisters and wait for his marriage until all his sisters get married. Also, supporting parents is exclusively his responsibility. Small wonder, the families in Pakistan will go to great lengths to have a boy.

Indian subcontinent has a better survival rate for boys then for girls that is in contrast to the medical fact that girls are born stronger than boys as suggested by the opposite statistic in the developed world. In our country when a boy gets sick parents take him to the doctor and when girls get sick they resort to home remedies. These are not the men who go about their important business of raping women (despicable as they are - they represent a different problem) but our parents, mothers and fathers (good boys and good girls of the society), the prisoners of tradition who eternalize the social disparity between men and women.

un ginant sadyoon kay taareek baheemana talsum

Reshum-o-atlas-o-kamkhwab me bunwai huwa

My cousin who is a doctor in the military was once posted in a rural area military hospital in NWFP. He told us about an incident - a pregnant woman`s life was in danger and all the doctors there decided that she must be operated on. The only surgeon available was a male. They had to ask the husband (owner) before allowing a male doctor to operate on the woman. The ``gairat-mand`` husband refused to allow a male to operate on his wife. Doctors and other medical staff pleaded with him but he did not budge. They finally told him that she is going to die. And he responded ``Koi baat nahin hum doosri kar lay ga``. It has been a long time since I heard it and I don`t remember what followed but his answer shocked me so much that it remains etched in my memory. What is still sadder is that it is very likely that the woman might say that she would die before letting a man touch her body. These are the ``sadyoon kay Talsum`` which are not easy to dispel.

I used to think that it is my education that brought me out of the shackles of the social dogma but now I am not so sure. I remember watching the movie ``The Accused`` with many of my friends here in America. We were all students then - I was sad to find out their opinions on the movie - they all thought that ``she was asking for it``. These are the educated men who think that raping a woman is an appropriate treatment if she does not meet their standards of propriety.

We don`t mind our sons growing up in an open society but would give up our careers to raise our daughter in our Des.

Thank you for bringing up the subject. Self-realization may be an end in itself but putting it up for debate is not.

Re: gsm

From first hand experience such behavior is extremely common in our Islamic Pakistan. As for the US, waiting in galis ? Where have you been ? that just doesen`t happen as long as a female does not go to the places you mentioned where they have the `construction worker` types. There arent champoos waiting at bus stops, subways for girls. when you walk down wall street, 34th street you DONT encounter the street obscenity that a female would on Tariq road or the financial area in Saddar.

People( a huge majority) here really dont have time for this crap!

People( an overwhelmingly huge majority) in pakistan DO have time or take time out for this kar-e-khair!

[Faisal ... am currently in US, it was more shocking cause people here, just mind their own business, they dont have time to wait in the galis just to have a little peep at the girls. People their look at the girls like a piece of meat]

You must have led a sheltered life here in the US!

Just visit any construction site or loading dock or longshoremen`s hangout and you will see the same unacceptable behavior of whistling and catcalls and staring and such. This behavior, however unacceptable and sad, is universal.

Bad Girl,

Pakistani culture could be, how shall I say it appropriately...closed, unfriendly, un-supporting at the same time as it is rich in other arenas.

I still remember the ``weired`` emotions going through my head when I first realized that one of my cousin sister (who grew up with me and I always considered her a sister)started evolving...you know....breasts. Actually that pretty much put an end to us playing together when we were kids.

Next time I felt the same ``weired`` emotions when I found out that she was going to have a baby after she got married.

Pakistani culture does not give appropriate options in dealing and addressing with these sensitive issues regarding our sisters and daughters be it them developing breasts, start of mensturation, pregnancy news etc.

Your article made me think how would I deal with these issues when the time comes and I am a father of a girl.

Bad Girl.....You go girl!!! What a wonderful, wonderful article. Take care.

Azam Khan

Dear readers,

thanks for all the positive feedback. to be completely honest, when i wrote the piece, the primary motivation to write something that no one talked about openly but happened to almost all women i knew. but once i started, a lot of serious issues came out, many of which i did not explore completely. but, i am happy that so many of you are responding to the more meaningful theme.

re. where i went to school: no, i grew up in pakistan, in not a terribly big city and attended a homegrown catholic convent.

rr. men and puberty: i hear you. its tough for the men out there too.

re. islam, modesty, etc: i think our so-called islamic values have more to do with all this preoccupation with sex and women`s lives. i have gotten over most of my hang-ups, but there are too many women who suffer shame and guilt FOR THE BEHAVIOR of men. for example, if women get raped, they are ostracized; women are asked to dress modestly so that men will not be `tempted` and the irony is that in our society, where women are bandaged up in dupattas and chadar, MEN STILL STARE AT THEM AS IF THEY WERE A PEICE OF MEAT. the entire responsibility for everyone`s sexual behavior (from a woman`s perspective; and i agree it must be different from a man`s perspective) is on women. so, if they continue to be leered at, they feel THEY must be doing something bad, or that their bodies must be shameful. this whole framework is set up to work against women.

imagine you were made responsible for a complete stranger and asked to make sure that s/he ate a potato every morning. if you have no control over this person, won`t you certainly fail? but, if society continues to blame you for the fact that the person was not eating a potato every morning, wouldnt you feel inadequte, even though it is not yor fault? i know this is a simplistic situation, but i just want to point out how ridiculous this notion is in the extreme.

regards.

A painful reminder of the freakish repression facing so many young women of Pakistan.

Certainly the appearance of such an articel has lifted my otherwise blackened hopes of our society ever achieving a healthy natural balance of human sexuality and mental growth.

Why the moniker `` Bad Girl`? I hope your next piece will be `Good Girls with Good Postures`.

Remember there are 60 million muslim girls who

may be listening for an uncowed voice. I am happy to join the majority in applauding you.

I was really shocked & amazed as for what pakistani girls have to go through. When I went to Pakistan to get a college degree from Karaci University, I was really disturbed by several common incidents, for e.g like the starring of men of women & girls standing on bus stops.People just waiting in ``galis`` for the school bus to come & so that they can have a look at girls.Since I was born in Bahrain & am currently in US, it was more shocking cause people here, just mind their own business, they dont have time to wait in the galis just to have a little peep at the girls .People their look at the girls like a piece of meat. :(

`` The giver of pleasure that is not permitted to feel it``

Wow! Never heard a Pakistani girl say it like this; outloud! I`m glad Pakistan is progressing towards freer opinions and actually expressing them.

The rest of this article was pretty articulate. Who wrote this. Not to offend anyone in Pakistan but you must have gone to an American school !!

Moazzam

That was a good one and very close to realty.I was sort of surprised to read all this not because it is true but for the fact that there are some women who can speak for themselves.

In my reply(First few lines) I by no means meant to say that muslim women should not dress according to the Quran.Sorry but, I realized the implications after I read my REply! They should but men should not stare at women regardless of their dress(this is also in the Quran FOR MEN), Because otherwise it would mean that its ok for all muslim men to start watching porn simply because the women are not dressed `properly`(what `dress`!).

Why is it that men always start pointing fingers at women, quoting quran and forgetting what is in the Quran about THEM. That is ignorance and discrimination of the worst form! Please educate yourselves before trying to educate others!

That was a good one and very close to realty as well.

Re: Parus

Women have the Right to dress the way they want. Taking it from your point of view:

WOmen should cover themselves according to Quran.

Well, I am assuming this refers to muslim women. Are you then implying that a muslim man may not stare at a covered muslim woman but has the license to do so at an uncoverd muslim woman(keep in mind uncovered does not imply naked)

What about non muslim women in Pakistan?

Pakistani men oogle no matter who the woman is, no matter which country they are in. It is a fact!

Even if a MAN goes out in burqa men WILL stare simply because it is a female.

Infact my personal expereince has been that desi men tend to stare more at desi women. If you dont dress/look(Dupatta and the whole nine yards) desi they wont really stare as much.(However, inPakistan this point is really not applicable)

Men dont have the right to visually rape ANY woman. Or should WE start staring at male crotches now, just because a MAN is wearing jeans? It can Be done, you know.

cool, i gotta say i was a bit surprised to read this stuff...its pretty bold and all but its good stuff , very gutsy thats why its cool....ENJOYED readin it and was also thought provoking(as if thats gonna make a difference)....

wat really is amazing is that of all the replies/comments that ive read , none of em critisize ur writing....now is that cool or is that cool. so heres some critisism:

``MEN, who needs em`` right?? although u havent purposely tried to bring this out but its there!! its one of the lasting impressions that atleast i got like an aftertaste or sumthin...wat ur lookin for is a 17 yr old guy who looks at a girl with a ``pronouced posture``, instead of sayin ``boy oh boy o boy`` goes `` poor girl``.maybe im wrong.

there are no such guys u know puberty strikes guys too....

now older men shud be ashamed...if they behave in this errr caveman-like way they have no justification....after years of suppression and hypocracy in the name of religion and wat not ud think they oughtta change into pious mullahs....sorry it doesnt happen that way!

so dont blame us blame the society...i know its unfair on women...but the ``EVIL`` u describe is not in the mind or the heart but in the fabric of the society itself....(now is that deep or what)

i swear loved ur article.

utopian

Interesting views which I must say I could not have even imagined that some girls go thru.

Being a father of two little darling girls it has made me promise myself to not let them suffer similarly when they go thru puberty, though I must say this; that if we are to be tue to ourselves and apply Islam as it was intended, in our lives then we can overcome all difficulties from the very private as in this article and the more public (affairs of State).I encourage you to enter into Islam completely.

What is it that Pakistan really needs? Is it more mullahs and more corrupt politicians? Or is it time for the long awaited miracle to finally open up the minds of each and every Pakistani (or atleast a majority) and then allow us to live together in harmony. There are so many other countries in the world (mostly in Africa) with problems like ours - some worse off, while others in a similar or worse state. Why is it that some of us do not want to even try to understand the problems of others and start of with our own side of the story? Time will take its toll on us, or set us free..............we will just have to wait!

Thought provoking indeed!!

In all honesty, the content of your article didn`t surprise me but the audacity with which you wrote about it did. I was pleased to find out that there are women out there who can voice their opinions and share their thoughts because they should.

This article and its content was indicative of the fact that double standards exist in our society. Most men from Pakistan don`t even know what PMS entails and some actually think that a man`s sexual needs are greater than a woman`s. I am sorry if you feel that men are pigs but I don`t blame you because most of us are.

I am sure that many women can relate to your story. The lack of awareness, especially among men but also women, in our society is due to several reasons but primarily due to absence of education (including sex education). Segregation, as many would argue, is not the solution ... it is part of the problem.

Is it only necessary for a woman to be ``good`` and hide herself behind a cotton dupatta so that we may feel proud of our ``culture.`` Change is inevitable but it will take several generations of mothers and fathers before this true emancipation becomes a reality.



``Minds are like parachutes; they only

function when open.``

Even some men are victims of our traditions. For example, if a man in our society decides to pursue art or something that doesn`t promise financial stability in Pakistan. I am sure he will not be considered as ``eligible`` as some Engineer or Doctor would be, no matter how sensible and open that person is. It is necessary for a male to be prepared to support a family ... he doesn`t have a choice but rather this role is imposed on him.

If possible, please continue to write more on this matter. Your satire and honesty was refreshing. But also remember that ALL men are not pigs ...

With deepest regards,

Maroof

Everyone tries to protect what is most precious to them in their one way. Daughter is the most precious thing a parent can have, and your parents are trying to protect you in their own way.

A very true depiction of a conservative society.

Parental negligence can be destructive for the offsprings in any society.This article is a creation of a by a bold person perhaps belonging to the upper class of the paki society. I might be wrong.

It was very amusing,and i laughed loud a few times.have not gone thru the rest of the articles but intend to try as soon as possible.



WELL DONE.

Gender in Pakistan

It is indeed a sad state of affairs in Pakistan (an Islamic country) when a rape occurs approximately every three hours, women are denied equal educational opportunities in many areas of the country, (although in this case class undercuts gender identity), and equal opportunities for advancement in society exist more on paper than in practice for the vast majority of women in the country. The high birth rate in Pakistan signifies the lack of control women have over their own bodies. 100% female literacy, nothing less, must be our goal.

I believe it is instructive to look at the Chinese experience in this regard. In China, before 1949 women can be said to be truly oppressed, if anywhere in the world by patriarchal society. The customs of foot binding, arranged marriages, child brides, no right to petition for divorce and lack of property and inheritance rights, in addition to the fact that the average woman gave birth over ten times in her life, and wide spread female illiteracy were the lot of women.

After the 1949 revolution and the Marriage law of 1950, women achieved full legal equality of rights. Until 1976, Chinese literacy rates were above 90%. Women not only gained equal rights, they entered the workforce as equal and productive members of society. Acceptance in the workplace led to acceptance by men of social equality. This did not however occur by governmental fiat so much as by active participation in the work force and social reeducation.

Until and unless this occurs on a large scale, at all social levels, women will not achieve gender equality in Pakistan. Rights can be granted, but must be fought for to be acknowledged. China as a model is not of course perfect, there has been a drop in literacy rates after forced rural collectivization stopped, and due to its ``one child policy`` female infanticide is a major problem. Nevertheless, many of the problems in pre-communist China confront women in Pakistan today. It should be noted however, that Islam gave women the right to initiate a divorce, in the Seventh Century A.D, which contrasts sharply with any other society including the West where women obtained this well over a thousand years later. Furthermore, it was Islam that outlawed marriage without the consent of those being married. Women were no longer to be viewed as chattel, or the personal property of men, to be disposed of as they wished. They were given specific legal rights.

Lamenting the problems that exist today however, will not resolve them. Acknowledging that they exist is a step in the right direction. However, the question of how to address and rectify the problems that exist today can only be approached after identifying and accepting their root cause.

The root cause of these problems is the dominant patriarchal culture of Pakistan. It is negatively reinforced in practice by its misapplication of Islam. To illustrate my point, even some of the judges of the Lahore high court had some doubts in the Saima Waheed case as to whether an adult, a grown woman had the right to choose her own mate without the consent of a wali (a novel religious idea). Again, religion was used as a cloak by the patriarchal society (represented in this case by her father who was against the marriage) in its attempt to control and victimize women in Pakistan. It is only within this context that one can understand the backlash (including death threats) the judgement produced for Asma Jehangir, the lawyer who represented her in court.

It was not a religious backlash, for no one could seriously dispute that the innovation of the concept of wali was without serious basis in Islam, but rather, because of the fact that this courageous woman stood up to and threatened the dominant institution of patriarchy. Free choice marriage threatens the very base of the institution of patriarchy, for it as a corollary obviously includes the notion that besides a woman`s right to choose her own mate, there would have to be a rather freer mingling of the sexes for this to become an issue at all. It does not restrict a woman to simply choosing from a pool of pre-approved candidates carefully screened and selected by her parents.

Islam envisions an egalitarian society for all members of the community, with social justice for all. Unfortunately, the patriarchal culture has usurped the rights of women in practice by the gender biased application of the religion to the detriment of women`s rights.

It is true that in the legal realm, the testimony of two women is considered the equal of one male witness, this is inherently prejudicial to the conception of rights of women. Inheritance rights of widows and daughters are similarly not on a par with those of male heirs.

An apologetic argument can, and has been made in both these cases that:

•a) these rights represented an improvement for women in the 7th century A.D, •b) women get their share of inheritance in the form of dowry, which they take with them to their husband`s home.

It is also true that the birth of a son is celebrated, while that of a baby daughter is simply accepted (the saying goes, haan, yeh bhee Khuda ki daeen hai). (Trans. this TOO is a gift of G-D)

So called ``Islamic`` legislation by the modern nation-state today in the area of women`s dress and morality winds up giving patriarchal society too much power to enforce the simple guidelines articulated by the religion as rigid and eternal codes, thereby giving it a powerful weapon with which to control and dominate women.

It is useful to note that the custom of veiling was only introduced at the time of Walid II as a fashion for upper class women in the mid eighth century (A.D). It has little Islamic basis. At the time of the prophet (pbuh), men and women prayed in the mosques together. Only much later was the seclusion of women and men in the mosques introduced. This seclusion has over time turned into the virtual exclusion of women from the mosque, leaving the mosque as the exclusive domain on men.

Islam enjoins virtuous women to ``dress modestly``, this injunction was not meant to stifle their very humanity as living beings, as the Taliban have recently done in Afghanistan. It should also be remembered that Ayesha the prophet`s (pbuh) youngest wife used to ride into battle on a camel. There were other women including wives of the prophet`s companions who went about quite freely unveiled. One of them, when asked by her husband why she did so, replied,that G-D had put the stamp of beauty upon her face and that it pleased her that the world should see G-D`s grace upon it. In both these examples of women in early Islam it is clear that there were no hard and fast restrictions upon them, as the self-proclaimed ``moral guardians`` of today`s ``Islamic`` societies would impose on women, keeping them both confined to the house and outside the sphere of public life.

Women`s general seclusion, (defacto exclusion) from the mosques has also had singular political consequences. The mosque has never been an apolitical institution, and unlike Churches in the West, there has never been a clear delineation of mosque & state. Exclusion from public performance of religious duties has thus conferred an inferior political status to women in Islamic states for over a millenium.

Patriarchal society is singularly obsessed with the virginity of females, and it is not for religious reasons, but rather because male control over women and male pride are linked in patriarchal society to the chastity of their unmarried daughters.

Through restrictions on dress and sex, which women by and large have legitimated for religious reasons, patriarchy acquires the trappings of both legality and righteousness in an Islamic society. After that, it is only a matter of arguing on behalf of concern for the seclusion of women from the ``lustful`` eyes of men, and their manner of dress to discriminate against them in multifarious other ways. Women having conceded on sincere religious grounds are an easy mark for patriarchy which deprives them from developing to their full potential as human beings, as the role of mother is the only one it envisions for them. The idea of daughter as prayee ammanat, (property-held-in-trust) is yet another example of the insidious nature of patriarchy. Once the daughter has left the father`s house, any shame she may bring will be on her husband and in-laws, no more on him. It is the risk of shame in the community which makes patriarchal males petty tyrants in their own homes over their wives and daughters.

The solution to improving the lot of women in Pakistan is as simple as it is breath taking. We must follow the ideals of the Quaid-e-Azam (father of the Nation) and build a secular republic where religion is a private matter for the individual, thereby establishing legal equality between the sexes on the basis of citizenship, not religion, which has become the bastion of patriarchy in its dominance of women.

Islam is the religion of enlightenment, to fully appreciate the significance of the rights it granted to women one must view these in the perspective of seventh century Arabia to understand how truly revolutionary they were. That appreciation however does not and should not confine us today. The grant of specific rights at a specific time and place in history does not mean that women have no other rights except those enumerated specifically. As times have passed however, the institution of patriarchy has sought to limit women to those (hitherto revolutionary) rights only, and crippled their effective exercise of those rights as well. Indeed, it is the Spirit of the laws that is missing today in Pakistan. Unfortunately this is because of the monopolization of Islam by patriarchal & religious reactionaries (Those who cannot, and moreover refuse to see the forest for the trees). Thus a self-perpetuating morality and language of oppression is created.

The institutions of patriarchy have spent over 1,000 years (as long as there have been men, there has been gender discrimination) consolidating their positions, by whitling away at the very conception of the rights of women in Islam, and our only option (coupled with the fact that the gates of ijtehad have been closed for too long), must now be to conduct this debate on a different playing field, otherwise forever, the dominant patriarchal culture reduces the debate on improving women`s lot (be it in employment, personal freedom or other areas) to being held within a ``religious context``, i.e. on its turf, making any discussion of progress all but meaningless except in name.

OMAR1974@aol.com welcomes comments.

Thought provoking article

Great to read another articulate scream raging against opression. Recoginition of the body often leads to the recognition of the mind and individuality. This is what the deniers of the body want - control through group behaviour. Recognition of the mind, body and individuality is the last thing they want.

keep it up.

Extremely humorous article that does point out to somewhat painful realities of growing up. I remeber I did not like the breast part of growing up because I was such a tomboy and having to wear a dupatta while being around was to say the least maddening. I did it though(grudgingly!) It wasnt my fault I was growing breasts!
Grown up (I think!), i am comfortable with my body though I still grudge the dupatta and well.. quite often forego it conveniently. I guess I still havent outgrown my teen rebellion and now is my chance to get back-with a rod straight posture and no dupatta-thankfully I am not in Pakistan!

Dear Bad Girl,

Assalamu alaikum aur adaab!

That was a very thought provoking article and extremely well written.

I think that even though I am a male and so, naturally, do not have the same problems as you to contend with, I can sympathise with you.

However, you should remember that it is only a lack of knowledge for the majority of people in our society which leads them to behave in such ways towards women. And the knowledge I am writing about is NOT `wordly` knowledge which is acquired at Colleges and Universities via B.A.s and M.A.s but knowledge about Islam. Real Islam, and especially those parts of the Islamic teaching which deal with cultivation of Ikhlaq, or Good Character.

It is because many Pakistanis are not good Muslims that we lecherously look at women and treat them in the manner that we do. Our religion teaches us to respect women and to `lower our gaze`. Please remember also that Islam requires men too to dress modestly.

The biggest problem in our society though is that
we have got diseased hearts. Our hearts are no longer pure--and that in turn leads to all these conditons of hypocrisy, lecherousness, lying, etc. etc.

IF both men and women were to practise Islam properly and especially try to cultivate Ihsaan or excellence, via Sufism (tassawuf) these problems would not exist. The goal of religion is to create better human beings, but most people do not realise this. And this is achieved via clean hearts. `There is a piece of flesh in the body`,said Our Beloved Prophet sal Allahu alaihi wa sallam, `and when it is diseased the whole body is diseased and when it is pure the whole body is pure. And that piece of flesh is the heart.`

As far as sexuality is concerned, the actual Islamic stand on this is to treat it as a natural part of our lives. Many great classical scholars have written textbooks on all aspects of sexuality ranging from courtship to lovemaking techniques! Islam itself does not repress sexuality but, lack of education on the part of the majority of our people, has led to this as being deemed `good social behaviour`. It is because of the importance of sex that Islam encourages early marriage. And within marriage, sexuality is shared equally between men and women (though not, unfortunately, in our society--again lack of knowledge being the chief culprit.) In fact it is a haq (right) which a WIFE has over her husband. In some schools of thought (mazhabs), it is the wife`s right to have sex every 4 days at least if she wants and if her husband does not comply she can lodge a complaint to the local qazi who can even have him whipped if he does not comply with his wives wishes!! We, regretably do not live in a real Islamic society where Islamic laws are applied (despite the so-called Jamaat-e-Islami and other `Islamic parties. These parties are a travesty to Islam.)

My point in writing the above is to let you know that although Islam is not coy about sex and sexuality (a glance at hadith books will tell you that; incredibly candid questions were asked of the Holy Messenger alaihi salatosalaam) it does at the same time extol the virtues of modesty, in BOTH men and women.

The fact that girls in our society are ashamed of having `breasts and of their bodies is a damning indictment on the men of this society. Certainly we need to change and begin to cleanse our Selves.

At the risk of offending some people I will say though that, most people will agree that sharam and hayaa ARE great virtues to be cherished in our society and it would be a shame to lose them. Certainly, shyness and nazaakat (delicacy) are some of the highest attractions of Pakistani women and it would be a shame if we were to lose that. This is not the same as saying that these should be used as excuses to repress women as often happens. Nor should they be restricted just to women, men too are far better when they have modesty and sharam too. And Islam says such too. And there ARE men who are like this too. I know guys who look on the floor everytime a women walks past and are too shy even to look at them, let alone ogle. THAT is surely something to be admired. And when Pakistani girls drop their gazes and smile shyly, isn`t that one of the most beautiful things in the world?! Sharmaana is a great quality. As one Pakistani author, Ruqaiyya Waris Maqsood (`The Muslim Marriage Guide` ) says, the female is the greatest source of gentleness and delicacy in the world, and by Western women losing that and becoming wanton and completely uninhibited (I should know, I`ve lived in England long enough!) they have lost this source of gentleness! Surely, we do not want to do the same? Allah has created Woman as a creature of modesty and hayaa and these should be guarded. [the best guard is the woman herself and a decent upbringing] At the same time Islam recognises women`s sexuality (Hazrat Ali karam Allahu wajh is reported to have said that Allah created desire in 10 parts and gave 9 parts to women and 1 part to men), though unfortunately OUR PAKISTANI SOCIETY tries to deny this. That is our great loss and the cause of unhappiness and un-natural growth to so many Pakistani girls I`m sure, who like you, have been conditioned to be `ashamed` of their sexuality.

These comments our my own views and anybody can disagree with them if they like! I hope though that what I`ve said makes some sense to some one at least.

If we became better PRACTISING Muslims, we would not have these problems and would treat our womenfolk better. Also, women should strive to maintain the many great qualities of Eastern women, modesty being the number 1 virtue, and not wish to become like men, as Western women have become. And the key to both is knowledge.

Take care and I hope that Allah grants all your wishes. Amin.

Allah HAfiz
Asif

I sympathize with your feelings, and would like to say that your figure is something that your inherit from your `genes`, and by the grace of allah. BE PROUD OF WHAT/WHO YOU ARE, AND TRY TO BETTER YOURSELF.

Re: bura larka

Thank you for sharing, so candidly, your experience and views on the subject. I agree, my focus was on the lecherous variety of desi men. I know enough desi men who dont fit either the tied-to-the-mothers`-apron- strings or leching variety, to know that not all of them are like that. Though, the sheer magnitude of those that fit at least one of those descriptions is quite shattering. Anyway, point well taken. I did ignore the many exceptions to these varieties, including good bad boys like yourself (?), to keep the story short.

PS Re Mino

And the point is not at all (physical) bad posture, especially mine.

Re mino

I am blaming society. But the point of the article was not just to blame.

After reading your article the question that came to my mind was - are you blaming your society or your mother for your bad posture.

Safwan,

Although I applaud your thoughts, social
conformity and a sense of belonging are basal
human instincts. To attribute human decisions
to just choice, is an oversimplification of the human psyche. Many of us conform to idiosyncratic norms not because we lack alternative choices, but because we are drawn by emotions, instincts culture, - sometimes just social acceptance.
To break with tradition is possible, but at an exbortinant price - not many of us are willing to make ( many may not even have a choice). That we leave to the heretics and the idealists, let their suffering absolve us of our shortcomings.

Most of us ( psuedo intellectuals :-)) believe in our own enligthened perspectives on life, ( as all of us have attempted to do) and yet as the bad girl so effectively pointed out burden others with seemingly innocuous actions. Self realization does not necessarily imply corrective action - more often than not its an end in itself.

Enough about Kant`s sociology , on to less epicurean pursuits.....

RE: Bad Girl, Saad Khan

So you are saying that NYC is less oppressive? Is that why back pads are popular out there? And why would you think you know more about the dilemmas of western women?

Can we name any problems that other societies do not also have, and if we cannot compare, how do we find solutions?

My point elaborated: it is really hard to claim moral outrage when faced with the facts. I do not know any individual or society that does not have its dark moments. But only those societies have progressed who do not pose as victims. As Louis Armstrong says in his Jazz legend,`` It is a beautiful world...`` We Pakistanis just seem to be habitual complainers.

Re safwan shah

Actually, the article was about self-realization. But, women`s objectification (and liberation from it) was a major theme in my mind when I wrote it. I am glad you chose to read it the way you did, though.

.

I am surprised. Did I miss something? In my opinion the article was not about ``breasts`` nor about sexism, not even about women alone - the article was about self realization and self actualization in the face of obstacles. In particular the kind of obstacles that society, culture, peers, media, parents, friends, our-own-self, etc. impose upon us; occasionally by design, often innocently. In my opinion there are plenty of men who have ``bent spines`` from the sharam they have to carry - moreover, there are plenty of women who have chosen to lead there lives as the ``fanciful objects`` of men. But then we are not celebrating those men and women today, at least if we are thinking people...

If we attempt to straighten our spines and unshed our sharam - then perhaps we will discover what that sharam really looked like.

Re: Uzaira

I agree with you that breasts are nothing to be ashamed of no matter how our societies treat them. However, I am not sure if regarding them as weapons that have the power to destroy male dominated society is the right approach. Whether we regard them as weapons or as a shameful burden, both these perspectives fall within the sexist framework of defining women and their value in terms of their bodies.

Re Athar Mian
your point about classs oppression and privileges is well taken. However, just because some rich women are privileged relative to poor men does not mean that these (rich) women are immune to gender oppression in their own class. It also does not protect the majority of women, who are poor, from violent, destructive and traumatic forms of sexism.

Furthermore, I do not recall saying or even implying that things are better for western women. I am aware, perhaps more than you, of the various kinds of probelms women face in the West and in our part of the world.

Also, I have not expressed my sentiments about Pakistan. I dont understand why you seem to assume that by writing about one particular form of oppression, I am dumping on all the men and the entire country!

I cannot resist...I had originally vowed not to partcipate in ``Pakistani`` discussions, since they always lead to nowhere.

Why do all Pakistani women seem to emphasize the torturous, male-suppression aspects ALL the time? Yes, society is inimical toward women, but it just is not only Pakistan. (Go through any women`s literature anywhere.) I cannot comment on the article itself, but there must be some good things about women`s lives in Pakistan ! Especially when those women happen to belong to the elitist class...funny thing is that none seem to air any balanced views. Even though the writer lives in NYC, a beautiful, romantic place that I have always loved (and will return to.) At least New York dwellers I know had a lot of positive things to say about Pakistan (and I mean they were mostly women journalists and professionals.)

I suspect the problem is deep-seated inferiority complexes, coupled with hypocrisy. I still remember a statement published in Karachi Herald by Asma Jahangir, a ``selfless`` human rights activist, re: her marriage to a privileged feudal-bureacrat. ``Un ki car par janda laga hooa thaa``. (His limo came with an official flag.) Excuse my insensitivity, but isn`t that how most of our otherwise privelged women (engaged in ``social`` work to prevent boredom, or one-up their male relatives actually responsible for oppression) get attention, only to find Mr. Rich Husband? A similar media-reported case was about a TV actor, Khalida Riasat, who husband-landed a feudal ``prince`` her dad`s age after making the sensational claim that marriage was nothing but ``legalized prostitution``. Maybe most Pakistani women do not have much career choice here, but that in itself does not a gloomy world make.

My point here is not to offend anyone, least Bad Girl (name covers it all :-)) ) But just to point out that dialogue ought to be balanced (my experience in the US with men and women on all sorts of explosive issues.) The trouble I find is that we are willing to denigrate ourselves more than our detractors are willing to. After all, Pakistan still is not the place where 1/3rd of college women are date-raped. There are more powerful women in Pakistan (Benazir Bhutto) than in the US. And the Pakistani male, however sexually-suppressed and illiterate compared with some fortunate ladies, still voted twice for a woman. She just did not deliver. Her problem was class, not gender.

Good commentary on a universal issue. Today being a father of a five year old daughter I pray to have the courage to end this stigma. At a recent Muslim gathering discussing ``Pardah`` a young girl asked ``Why do we have to wear Pardah in a Islamic society where we are surrounded by our Muslim Brothers who believe in the respect and sanctity of a Muslim sister?`` and the answer was ??????

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
Asif Rauf.

BAD BOYS & GOOD YET ABORTIVE POSTURES

Heavy the legacy sometimes!
Why is it so?!
I really can`t tell,
I really don`t know.

Ideas before my giving them birth are
aborted
when abnormal, heavy and painful to set
free.
They pass in silence and never come to be.

Undeveloped, immature.
For my peace of mind and sanity, I ABORT.

To everyone. This article was primarily a humorous attempt to look at gender oppression. Of course, it was based on my experience, but the traumatic anecdotes of suffering feminity were slightly exaggerated.
This piece was also meant to encourage women readership and participation.

For those who are feeling sorry for me, thanks, but I got over the trauma of being in a female body a very long time ago :-) !!

Re: Mister Pasha ``... God is not someone any human being can claim to have special access to ... please don`t use him/her to reinforce an argument, it detracts from the argument and is offensive to the spiritual ....``

Well said and then some. We ought to keep the debate/arguments/comments on a platonic
and secular level in order to to carry on a meaningful dialogue(s) on CHOWK. Unless of
course, we are dicussing spiritual matters!

Re: Murtaza

1.Buy a cow.
2.Learn to write.
3.Don`t recall her saying she didn`t want female appurtenances, just that she would have been much happier being defined for something a little more pertinent to herself.
4.God is not someone any human being can claim to have special access to. Please don`t use him/her to reinforce an argument, it detracts from the argument and is offensive to the spiritual.

Tahnoon

Your article quite humorously and poignantly puts the spotlight on our medieval attitudes on human sexuality and gender bias. It is practicised much more covertly in the educated middle classes where hypocrisy and traditions provide the convienient veil for such behavior in our society. Men are not immune from this either.

Perhaps many men can relate to enormous family pressure to choose particular professions, or worse yet in matrimonial circumstances. :-) (article subject matter)

Unfortunately for many in our society, the lessons learnt in spring of life are barely remembered in the fall, whence the vicious cycle is repeated once again , perhaps with a slightly diminished ferocity to accomodate the changing times.

Now this is what I call ``Off The Wall`` article! And since we are talking about postures how about desi pregnant women? Doesn`t it totally disgust you to see how a desi pregnant woman hides her body in every way known to her as if she is not only embarrassed of her body but also her state. I suppose that’s an article in itself (maybe a sequel:-)

Re: Saima and Bad Girl

Respectively...
1. I didn`t actually specify a kind of rebellion, or the rules that one wished to break.
2. The comfort apparently does not extend to admitting the existence of ones breasts absent a pseudonym.

Methinks the ladies doth protest too much. :-)

i.e. Please don`t dump on me. I`m on your side on this one. I repeat, great story. Look forward to reading more of your work.

Re: Tahnoon Pasha

Glad u enjoyed the article. Just wanted to clarify that this is not `sour grapes`. This is something that I know a lot of women have gone through. It also part of my own process of getting comfortable with my self as a woman. (Sorry for the short reply. I am out of town and replying on the phone.) I am glad that everyone else in the replies section enjoyed the article.

Re: ``I wonder how much of what we read on Chowk is ```good girls`` thinking ``Damn! maybe I should have broken a few rules back then.```

To answer your question as one of the women writing at Chowk: I think you may have misunderstood the article. If there was a really personal statement it is, ``I wish I had always known just how good I am, even though I am female with a female body``.

The kind of rebellion you describe was never on the agenda. It is not about sour grapes at all...but just about calling a spade a spade.

One can only ask why a society chooses to anchor its better half under the weight of ``Sharam`` or Shame (aimed at specifically the female anatomy) while the ``Besharmy`` or the open shamelessness of various social injustices daily rule our society?
This ``Bad Girl`` has done a great job of
exposing some of the dilemmas faced by the ``Good Girls`` of Pakistan who I hope will continue to express themselves and educate us in such forums.

Ras Siddiqui

oops, typo. was *not * one of their problems.

sorry for the clutter people.

rotflmao.

Funny thing is, most of my friends would probably have been the ``bad girls`` of your memory. Whilst no doubt they had their own problems, the kind of angst you describe was one of them.

As a matter of fact, one once told me ``You expect all women to walk around in this heightened state of arousal, perpetually aware of their breasts or glutei (not the word she actually used), but when was the last time you were walking along and actively thought ``gosh I`m bald``?``. Clearly her body wasn`t as significant to her.

This just brought a fascinating thought to mind. I wonder how much of what we read on Chowk is ``good girls`` thinking ``Damn! maybe I should have broken a few rules back then.``

If so, more power to you, and its never too late.

Ending on a cliche:
Among the ways to bisect humanity, is between those who make rules, and those who follow them.

This was very funny and very well said. Somehow it is the womans `fault` that she is found desirable by men.

I think the article is great! I found myself not only laughing out aloud at the various (sad) antics of the social circus in Pakistan but also being confronted with the hypocricies of even the ``liberal`` and ``progressive`` men among us.

dear bad girl

i have not enjoyed any article as i did this one in a long time. with tears of sheer pleasure and laughter , i infact had to rundown to the ladies toilette to get some paper to wipe the tears of laughter running down my face. but then its funny only in retrospect. i know while going through an earlier than normal puberty cycle myself, i felt just the same if not worse!!

u know i actually understand completely yet don`t understand this article. My own maammi is always telling my cousin`s (she has 3 daughters and mayeb that`s why) to ``stand correctly`` and to ``fix theid duputtas`` when I ask my mother what in the world she is talking about my mother just sighs and says that is the villager conception of how girls should be hunched. Yet now when my cousin`s are 16 and 13 they talk loud, their body moves uncontrollably, and they freely talk with boys ( even though their mother has a stroke every time) and i see that this is a result of sojme sort of rebellion. I on the other hand when little had excellent posture and when i grew up my mother would say don`t take that duputta like a old lady fix it ( in quite the opposite way)I IN TURN have developed a slouch and this i thought was b/c of studying but maybe this is my way of rebelling against my mom i dont` know but i know this topic all to well in our family in a twisted sort of way, i who was never really pressured to act like something eventually did become it b/c of men`s filthy looks

It`s a shame that it an article like this to make us realise what we do. ``Bad Girl`` your point is well made and even better expressed. I mean no ill will when I say that if you had erm....the balls to write the article, you could have put your name with it. After all, I would be proud of a piece of work like that, and prouder still if my sister - or any woman - had courage enough for her convictions.

On another note: The name of religion is oft used to legitmise slouching. Our girls ``simply don`t behave like that`` in Pakistan. However, a subtle distinction should be drawn between religion and custom (though I don`t want to get into debate about defining such a line - it`s good enough to know which side of you are on). When the distinction can be seen, the behavior can be explained (though in NO case condoned). The results are surprising.

Again, well done.

Rafay Alam