Chowkwalas Interview Pak. Law Minister

I was wondering if this was only a one time effort or would there be another opportunity to put questions to the honourable Minister.

If there is such a possibility, I would like to clarify that:

1) when I said Companies Law is over 50 years old, what I basically said that Companies Ordinance 1984 was a old book in new covers. There were no substantial changes in effect. Even subsequent to the enactment in 1984 there have been changes / amendments in C.O. 84, but we don`t go around saying that we now have CO 1998. The point is what is the effect of the CO 84. What were the new thoughts incorporated that were not already there in Companies Act 1913. Any thoughts.

2)Companies are forced to offer less than 50% of their capital not due to the companies ordinance but due to the Stock Exchange Rules (which in turn has a monopoly on capital markets). If I implied that it was in the CO, my apologies. Can financial institution`s in Pakistan join up and start something similar to NASDAQ, I don`t think so. So deregulation in Pakistan does not really go anywhere, it keeps monopolistic institutions intact.

3) Grindlay`s Modaraba was launched in the 80`s with 20% capital being put up by the Management and Associated Companies. But the recent changes in the Stock Exchange Rules would not permit such an issuance today. They have been put at par with other JS companies.

4)Treasury Stocks: I depended on a news item in Dawn that basically pointed to a mechanism to support the stock market by allowing companies to purchase its own stock. If this news item is baseless, then there is no issue of making a comparision between the laws in western societies.

5)Bankruptcy and foreclosure: It is typical of us to be either leftist or rightist. I mean that the concept of Chapter 11 is to provide an opportunity to the Management of the company to come up with a plan to salvage the operations within the days agreed with the judge. And if the plan is not in the best interest of the creditors it may be rejected and forced into liquidation. But in the case of Pakistan, it seems that a default by the company is equated to a default by the shareholders (unless ofcourse they are guarantors).

An equitable mortgage is treated differently from a registered mortgage. Since there is a lot of legal time and money involved in a registered charge, the financial institutions go for an equitable mortgage. However, in order to realize the value from an equitable mortgage, the FI has to go through years of court process.

6) I agree that each country has its own requirements to certify accountants, and examination of accountants would go a long way in standardizing quality of accountants. My objection was on the fact that the accountant trainees are compelled to work for a CA firm before they are allowed to write the CA exams. These students work in the CA offices 10 hours a day 7 days a week (during closing) and paid Rs.1000 a month. Why should that be protected by legislation from the Government. The students should be allowed to appear for their examinations, whether they have worked in a CA office or not. I do agree that they should have experience but this is not to say that it should be in a CAs office.

7)Agricultural tax in Pakistan is a flat tax and bears no impact on the level of income the land generates. Constitution can be changed by means of house majority and I don`t see why this government is hiding behind a Constitution which is inequitable.

8) Income tax on worldwide income is not restricted to developed countries. Philippine
(which is not a developed country) gets a sizable revenue from its citizens in the Middle East.

9) Mind you all that I wish Pakistan to focus on is that systems are already in place in different parts of the world. We do not have to invent the wheel of legislation, but what we need to do is understand what is already available in the world, study and make comparative analysis, and incorporate it into the legal system. We have to distinguish people from special interest groups which are not privilaged (does not equate to being poor) from those that are (does not equate to being rich) and make laws that puts them on equal footing.

Excellent responses to excellent questions. Thank you, Mr Minister, for taking the time to respond. Democracy at work in cyberspace! Thank you also to the staff of this excellent Islamic forum for making this possible.

Gary Salaam & Vickie McNamera

Masjid Tucson, Arizona

Re: Minister`s replies

I was talking about a `normal life ` not utopianism. There is a difference, believe it or not! Pretty pathetic hegding tactic to cover up your failure.

. What else could we expect from our politicans & govt. servants?

Waste of space that may have been put to better use

The questions received till Monday July 27 have been submitted to Mr. Anwer and his responses will be published shortly.

You are all welcome to discuss the respones when they appear.

I know I might be late for a response, but incase I am not, I remembered another question.

Was the Foreign Exchange Act abolished. If not how is that BB is not charged for contravening the laws of Pakistan.

I think the developed countries tax laws should be studied to see how they deal with individuals with foreign assets (and why in pakistan their income - dividends, rents, and interest - is not taxed).

Questions for the Law Minister:

- How can you morally justify the arrest

of owners of companies in financial

difficulties ?

- Do you really believe that harrassing

and incarcerting enterpeneurs and

factory owners will resolve your economic

problems ?

- You have no problems with wealthy generals

and bureaucrats walking arounds with

hundred of millions of Dollars in bank

accounts. You do not have the nerve to

as Ejazul Haq or Zahid Ali Akbar where they

got this kind of money

Respected Minister of Law,

There is an epidemic of crime in the country that is intimately linked to the economic situation of the people and to the low efficiency of the law enforcement agencies in Pakistan. I would like to ask you what concrete steps are being considered by the government to improve the situation.

I have an additional question about sectarian violence in Pakistan. There have been multiple investigations about the identity of the perpetrators, and about their organizations. Since sectarian violence threatens to undermine the very fabric of our society, the government needs to take stern and just measures against curbing this epidemic. What plan does the government have to address this problem?

Thank you.

Mr Minister,
Pakistan need funds. Friends of Pakistan are, no doubt, there to help us. However the best thing would be to generate reveneus indigisouly! Copy right violation is rampant in Pakistan particularly in films or home entertainment. There are only two companies at present dealing in legal video business in Pakistan. They the licensees of major Hollywood studios. In a very huge market of home entertainment in Pakistan, only these companies are paying govt Taxes at the rate of Rs 110 per video cassette, while the pirates are filling their coffers with billions without paying any thing to the nation. Pakistan has good copyright law but with luke worm enforcement and NO MMANDATORY MINIMUM PUNISHMENT, it is not becoming effective.A proposal was put up to the govt last year, in which it was recommended that the Copyright law be amended so that mandatory minimum punishment of either 6 mongth RI or Rs 50000.00 fine is imposed on piratye upon conviction. The proposal also contained a gauranteed Rs 5 Billion (min) per year as additional reveneus if the law amended and enforced. Despite being in agreement, why the govt is not doing so?

Respected Mr.Minister:

My first question is about the `Blasphemy Laws`

in Pakistan:

Section 295-C of the Pakistan Penal Code says:

``Whosoever by words, either spoken, or written, or by visible representation, or by any imputation, innuendo, or insinuation, directly or indirectly, defiles the sacred name of the Holy Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) shall be punished with death, or imprisonment for life, and shall also be liable to fine.``

While the sentence of death or life imprisonment is mandatory for offenders under Section 295 C, acts and utterings intended to outrage the feelings of other religious groups are hardly punished. A person guilty of the latter offense can walk away after paying a small fine (as per

Section 295-A PPC).

Will your excellency opine on the fairness of these laws (or lack thereof)? How do they support our claim of being a tolerant and free country?

And as you are aware, Mr.Minister, the situation is different in practice. Religious feelings of minorities are hurt and trampled upon by many who remain unpunished. Is any Muslim ever prosecuted under Section 295A for offending the religious feelings of Hindus or Christians, even for that perfunctory slap on the wrist?

Abuse of Section 295-C is also a concern for many of us. While so far no one has been punished under this law (although the lower courts have handed out several death sentences)several people under trial have been killed by vigilantes. Have those murderers been ever brought to book?

My second question is about the 1984 legislation targetting Ahmadis/Qadianis.

Section 298-C of the Pakistan Penal Code:

``Any person of the Quadiani group or Lahori group (who call themselves `Ahmadis` or by any other name), who directly or indirectly poses himself as a Muslim, or calls, or refers to, his faith as Islam, or preaches or propagates his faith, or invites others to accept his faith, by words, either spoken or written, or by visible representations, or in any manner whatsoever outrageous to the religious feelings of Muslims, shall be punished with imprisonment of either description for a term which may extend to three years and shall also be liale to fine.``

Doesn`t the above law violate your sense of justice ? Why can`t Qadianis propagate their faith and proselytize, while everyone else can?

Regards

Mohammad Noor-ul-Islam

Baltimore, Maryland

USA

Dear Sir,

My impression of the way the `Intelligence` agencies operate in Pakistan is that they consider themselves above the law. These agencies routinely abduct, incarcerate and even execute citizens of the Islamic Republic. There are no controls or checks on these agencies; it is quite normal for employees of these organisations to use the unlimited power at their disposal to settle personal scores or simply bully neighbours. This impression has been gleaned by reading various mainstream Pakistani publications and talking to quite a few visitors from Pakistan.

Do you recognise that such a problem exists? If so, as Law Minister, do you intend to take any steps to make these agencies accountable and answerable under the law?

Sincerely

Sir,

Following up on previous questions:

1) When are we going to abolish quotas. Quotas are Pareto inefficient and leads to corruption and inefficiencies that plagues Pakistan today.

2) When are we going to revamp the Tenant Act. Th inability of the owner to vacate the property has left a shallow Housing Finance Market, which continues to be dominated by the HBFC. Since the defaulter`s property cannot be foreclosed without extensive litigation, this has kept investors away from this market.

3) When are the Overseas Pakistani going to get the right to vote in the elections. Despite the Supreme Courts decision that Overseas Pakistani should be allowed to vote, no effort has been made to make provisions at the Embassies around the world.

Mr. Minister, a previous chowk interacter asked a very personal question about alcohol drinking. If

I were you, I wouldn`t even dignify that question with an answer. I don`t see a problem with social

drinking. Now alcohol addiction is another matter which is transgressing the limits as set forth in our Holy Book ... a commonsensical limitation. What is the Pakistanian government doing about alcohol/substannce abuse treatment?

Are there laws on the books for alchol/substance

abuse?

Sincerely,

Gary Salaam McNamara

Masjid Tucson, Arizona

QUESTION: Do you think Pakistan will succeed in getting its money back by taking USA to court which has been done recently?

QUESTION: Making laws in one thing but what has been done to ensure justice that is speedy and not too costly for the ordinary Pakistani?

Minister of law:

Here is a legal case ``already won`` for you to act upon in the national interest.

1. In 1997 I was in Pakistan and found that ALL THE PROFEESORS of a certain university were FAKE.

2. I filed a complaint with the ombudsman where I repeated the above claim and also stated that the Vice Chancellor and the Deans of that university, all grade 21 professors, did not even qualify as grade 19 associate professors.

3. I presented a well documented case based on UGC rules and nobody from the university side said a word. They had nothing to say , they are all fakes.

4. The ombudsman AGREED with me but he DID NOTHING, though he sent a reference to the chancellor, the governor of Sindh.

5. The case is well documented. Mr Wahab Shaikh, adviser to the Governor knows it very well

NOW I HAVE AN OBSERVATION AND A QUESTION.

OBSERVATION: ALL those who matter in Pakistan were informed that all professors of a certain university are fake. Nobody did a thing.

A judge decided that something was illegal but he also declared ``I can`t and I won`t do a thing except tell the obvious to the governor``.

Also I brought this to the notice of a Supreme Court Judge who said ``Forget it...I myself get scared when I pass within miles of that university``

Question: Are you going to ask the governor and ombudsman of Sindh for the case file.

Remember: This is a case of national importance and is a case so unique that it needs no references or names to be located.

The present government seems more interested in adopting adhoc measures rather than permanent solutions. The example of that in the judicial system are the special courts. While the `conventional` system of courts is plagued by a number of problems and the people of Pakistan have lost faith in getting justice, the special courts hand in death sentences day after day, without allowing the defendants proper time to prepare defense and in some cases even denying the right to appeal. While nothing is being done to improve the `conventional` judicial system, a parallel system of justice (or injustice?) has evolved that is getting stronger day by day.

My questions are:

1. Does the government plan to make `special` courts a permanent feature of the judicial system?

2. What steps are being taken, if any, to reform the `conventional` system of justice?

3. When cases are referred to the Anti-Terrorist courts, are not the defendents labeled as terrorists even before the actual trial takes place? (or is it a case of `guilty unless proven innocent`?)

4. Do you think it is a brilliant idea to have special courts and we should make them a permanent feature of the judicial system? or do you think that they are the need of the day and are helping in improving the law and order situation in the country?

1. Is it true that you and most ministers in the cabinet enjoy drinking (alcoholic drinks, that is)? (A very reliable friend told me he was in a private gathering where you and others were enjoying the drinks as if it was a normal thing for you.)

2. Why is the police department so centralized? The federal government sends half-literate, crude and corrupt policemen from rural and under-developed parts of the country to cities, especially Karachi, where the educated and sophisticated taxpayers and citizens are harrassed, mistreated and dealt with in such harsh manners as if they were invaded by an enemy army. 3. Why can`t you have a police force recruited, trained and deployed from within the same towns and cities and from educated people?

4. Why the training of the policemen does not include good manners when dealing with people? 5. And why doesn`t the police employ latest methodologies in investigating a crime in large cities where facilities are available instead of torturing the suspects until they confess the crime that they may not even have committed?

6. I have also heard that the police precincts are bought and sold (a common perception based on true stories) and that to make up the cost, the police officers ask for bribes, protection taxes and even employ bandits for robberies and car-jackings. Why does`nt the government do anything about it to investigate and end such practices?