The Good, the Bad and the Anxiety

Awsome Article!
And you know i totally agree with you and i am sure you are a very pious and paanch waqt namazi auntie and specially i loved the `MANIAC` part and i too believe that who the hell are they to dictate us.
By the way, from all the blessings we have `not hearing one`s concious and thoughts` isn`t the greatest of all, i mean even for the old man who didn`t had a clue what you(her beti) were thinking but then, when i think about all the oldies who`ve been around you for ages, they seem the luckiest of all.

Stay Good!

I believe its not about Pakistani women being “public/national property” however it does bother me when I see a Pakistani women behaving in a way which is contrary to the “Pakistani way”. I have not yet been able to fully grasp the reasons as to why is it this way, when in fact I wouldn’t even enough that women. However, I do believe it is the way we look upon women i.e. in a protective sense and as something which would reflect our society and culture has something to do with this.

Great article. I agree with everything you say. The problem with ``out culture`` is that people are so horny all the time, they can`t think straight. What really irks me is the fact that everyone frowns upon sex, even talking about sex, but come sundown, everyone is trying to figure out where to get some. The pathan truck drivers and taxi drivers, (I know I`m stereotyping, but it`s true), preach Islam, pray five times a day and then what do they do, they go find them selves a 12 year old boy and get off in ways that I don`t care to think about. It`s repulsive the way men stare at women in bazaars, and they do it so blatently, subtlety is lost on these people.

Now, talking about women in Umreeka seen with a gora, people talk behind your back, and ofcourse assume that you`re a slut. Same goes for a desi guy in umreeka whose seen with a Gori. I was in a Sociology class during ramadan one year, and this girl in my class was really interested in participating in an iftari dinner. One was held every Saturday at my school by the desi uncles and aunties for the desi students. But when I attempted to walk in with my classfellow, I was stopped at the door and very rudely informed that this event was for muslims only. To make a long story short, I did get in with the girl from my class, but years later, people still talk about the desi guy who brought a gori to an iftar party, and of course I was branded the male slut whom every desi girl should stay away from. I mean how narrow minded can these pea brains be?

And I can`t stand people that try to justify this kind of moronic behavior by claiming that they care about you and don`t want people to talk behind your back yatta yatta yatta, they`re the first ones to judge you, what schmucks.

I like your articles and they always hit home with a bang. Looking forward to more.

a

Dear Sister:

I am agreed with some points but not all of them because I think you totaly missed the silver lineing of our culture and religon, why don`t you feel proud that, there are lots of people around you who sicerly care about you. I live in USA for a long time and this is my daily observation that over here there is no respect for women they don`t care what you are doing but they do notice if your attire or act is not up to their ``standard`` they see women as a entertainment tool, but they in different ways, as far as our society in Pakistan is concerned I know you are right about Teasing women things but if you noticed that if some one try to bother you there are lots of people who will protect you, from those people regardless they know you or not. in these days there is trend that some women making to much mess in the name of freedom tell me honestly who do you think are responsible for this mess. Islam gives you freedom as it give freedom to mens but there are some limitation for both genders. Look shopkeeper said to you Baitiee don`t you think he was giving you respect and honer how about western people they left no effort to make (Undescribable) relation as soon as they get closer? sister I am sorry to say that you wer totaly missing the good intention of those people who tried to protect you.

May Allah gives you understanding to diferentiate between good and bad people.

Again sister my intention is not for critics but just to point out an other angle of thought. I hope you don`t mind

Allah Hafiz

your brother

Ibad Tirmizi

After reading your article, which by the way rings totally true, i thought it might be interesting to get a Middle Class, Urdu Speaking Karachite perspective on it. I called up a gentleman in his mid thirties who lives in N.Y and travels frequently to Karachi as his family is there and read it to him (in Urdu translation, I did the best I could) and discussed the article and the issues it raised about Women being the property of men in Pakistani society and whether or not they should have the right to dress according to their dictates or not, w/o perfect strangers unilaterally assuming the right to comment on their manner of dress and criticize/rebuke them

I asked him the question that afterall, ``Aap Unn kei kyah lagte hai ? Kyah woh app ki jagir hein ? Kyah haq bunta hai aap kaa kei aap un say yeh sub kuch kaheinh ?`` He conceded that yes, the men technically have no right to do that, but pointed out that men only do that when the girl is dressed in Jeans &/or wearing a T-Shirt because its not ``our culture``. He conceded that men were at fault in staring etc in public at women, but also insisted that it only happens to those who choose to attract this sort of attention by wearing ``provovative clothing``, and by the glances they give men. I was totally disgusted with this attitude, but he said that men in Pakistan stare are women who are dressed differently than the norm simply because its unusual. He pointed out that as a Pakistani male in the company of others in Korea, he had similarly been subjected to stares by the entire neighbourhood as they passed through, including a trafic cop who while directing trafftic in one dirrection, stared at them as they passed by the other way, and treated similarly in a small village in Germany to people just staring (even peering out of windows from behind drawn curtains to take a peek). He puts it down to human nature. He said to me, ``you would stare at a white American girl too, if you saw her in a Shalwar Kameez !`` I conceded that i might look for a moment because that would indeed be unusual.

However he claims the following about Karachi (Clifton beach area) that he saw with his own eyes recently. He saw people Kissing and making out in public (at night) sitting on the rocks, he saw people f.....g in cars (Sar naazar aa rahay thei - Sar kay oopar sar, in the dark so naturally he formed this conclusion) parked near the beach (after 10:00 pm, he saw girls dressed in shorts and T-Shirts! (his exclamation mark) Couples walking on the beach together arms around each other, he claims people were groping each other in the dark ...

He (Nazar) says, ``Aap ko kyah interest hai kai aap mardoon ki taraf daykheen aur yeh observe karen kei woh aap kay muttalik kyah comments karte hain aur 90% loog wohi comments karte hain jo woh aankhoon say dekh rahe hain, kei aik mashrique musalman larki apna mazhab aur culture say hut gayee hai aur woh ishee leyay hairaat ka shikaar hootay hein aur apne jazbaat par qaboo nahinh rakh payte aur oos ka izhar kuch ghalat andaaz say kar dayte hain. Aur, iss mein bhee un ka qusoor nahinh hai kyoon kai hum muslaman hein aur khass taur sey Pakistani hein aur yeh humare khoon mein hai, halaan key agar un loogoon ki jaga mein hota to mein aap per comments kuch iss tareekay say karta kei mein aap say zyada modern bun jata, Americanized hojata, aur ushi style mein aap sey mukhatib hota aur jayseyhi karpre pehanta Americanoon ki tarha, ushi accent kay saath, aur yeh mallom honay kai bawajood kai aap aik musalman aur Pakistani hein, kahta, ``Hai Sweeti, You are a georgeous girl, you are such a nice, pretty girl, what are you doing tonight ? Lets go out have a few beers, and enjoy the whole night together.`` Too phir aap ko buraa nahinh lagta ! Aur lagne bhiee nahinh chayhiey, kyoon kai aap America mein hai, Western minded hain, Western cultured hain aur phir aap ko yeh loog aur culture pasand bhee hain, haanlaynkee mein yeh sub kuch mein kar nahinh sakta, mana key mard bohat batameez hote hein, shaki mizaj hotay hein, larkioon pey baghair comments karte hain aur woh chaahai khud kitne bhee buray kyoon nah hoon aik musalman larki, Pakistani, ko woh apne libas mein, sharm o` haya se bharpoor aur khass taur par jis ko woh apni biwi banana chayhein oos ko 99.99% iss rupe mein dekhna pasand karte hein. Aur phir un ko agar yeh ideal mil jayee to woh apne tamam burayeian jo maazi mein kar chookay hein 90% woh choorr dayte hein bashart yeh kei biwi mein woh salahiyat ho, itne qabilyat ho key woh aik buray insaan ko aik achay rang mein dhaal sakay.

Aur haquiqat mein 99% mard jo hein woh aik wafa ki packer, sharm o`haya, aqalmand, samajdaar, sali-kay-mand aur bohat zyada chahnay wali doost yah biwi ka mutlashi hota hai. Aur haquiqat to yehhi hai aur aik bara insaan woh hota hai jo haquiqat ka saamna karey aur education aur taalim hamay yehhi kuch sabaq dayti hai kei American style me mein yeh kahoon ga kei WHO CARES ? Mein aap ki sachchaii aur talq haqeeqat ko qabool karta hoon, aur yeh such hai. Aameen. Khudahafiz`` Mohammad Nazer Iqbal. (917)356-5944, Beeper. He doesn`t mind being beeped by anyone for a talk regarding his comments.

I wish some of the articles posted at Chowk wuld find their way into Urdu newspapers so we could have a national debate about serious issues regarding the treatment of women in Pakistan with a wider audience. I love your writing style Bad Girl!

``Bad Girl,``

that was a wonderful essay! I think many independent-minded, strong Pakistani young (and even older) women can relate very well to your experiences. I don`t know whether I`m as independent and self-assured as my sometimes wavering image of myself, but I do know that I`ve spent a lot of time agonizing over our desi men`s preoccupation with the ``chastity`` of their women. My blood has boiled over even the more subtle aspects of the treatment of our women; they are, by and large, reduced to waiting on their men--picking up after them, serving them, and finally, simmering in anticipation of that one approving look from them that will put the final seal of success on a day, a month, a lifetime.

Another observation that struck a chord with me was: ``...why do we have such a problem with complexity and ambivalence? Why do people have to be divided neatly into a handful of boxes?``

I have always lamented Pakistanis` need for unequivocal-ness, if I may, or our inability to recognize or deal with any shade other than black or white. It has to be either evil or good, clutched in the gnarled grasp of sin or aglow with the radiance of righteousness--flowing white, haloed, and angelic. I think we have found it easier to simply dismiss something--an act, a condition, a thought--as bad, rather than to spend time and a little cerebral activity on questions such as why or how. And of course, in the case of men-women interaction, men really have much to gain (in the immediate sense) from not letting in a hint of doubt when it comes to their women`s lot in their world. Case closed! is the way to go for them--it`s fast, it`s easy, and it keeps their boss-dom alive, at least for the time being.

Hi BG,

Please disregard my last coments. after going through ur massive replies, i felt as if I shouldn`t have to indulge myself in such a great mess. So please consider me all out.

P.S. FEAR ALLAH...

Whoever you bad girl r, I m very much disappointed on reading this article, which is nothing but a filth, I can only advise u to please understand what Islam says about women and modesty. I also came into conclusion that u only born in muslim family....

Please, do not mix urself with muslim women u could be pakistani women but not representing muslim women..

P.S. I can send u some usefull web sites, if u ever have desire for understaning what Islam says about women`s modesty.

Great Articles Bad Girl. I liked all of them. Keep writing.

Vinay

lreddy@scf.usc.edu

Re Exile

I guess you answered one of my questions! :)

Dear Mr. Shahid Khan:

Please forgive me for not replying sooner. I was not trying to be rude.

You made an elaborate statement which repeats, over and over, your strong and sincere beliefs. I respect your faith and reaffirm that I condone the “kinder, gentler Islam” which you promote. However, I do have a problem. You simply evaded my direct challenges to your claim that classical Islam preaches equality among men and women. I gave references from the Quran which clearly indicate otherwise. I also gave some other Quranic references which show that some portions of the Quran don’t stand up to scrutiny.

You simply avoided answering any of those points. Instead, you went on and on and on about how perfect and wonderful this and that is in your faith. I have no trouble with what you may choose to believe in but I do take exception to your subtle implication that I made claims out of ignorance and misinterpretation. If you are implying that the Quran does not say the things I pointed out then, sir, you simply have not studied your Quran.

Since I do not understand Arabic, I can only rely on translations. I always look at various translations and make allowance for the tiny variations among them. The English translation I follow are those of (1)Yousaf Ali and (2) Picthal. I have, in years past, also followed Urdu translations of (1) Maulana Azad and (2) Maulana Maudoudi. I assure you that what I referred to in my “Islam bashing” message is not a figment of my imagination as you seem to conveniently explain it away. Please re-read my previous message and you will see the specific points I raised against the notion that EVERY WORD of the Quran is ALLAH’s WORD. IMHO some passages of the Quran clearly fall far short.

There is another excellent article about the Quran on the main chowk. I shall submit my question there also. Perhaps you may wish to carry this debate to that venue as it was really a digression under here.

respectfully...SR

RE: Zareeen,

``...........whereas a woman is the real architect of the family.......`` Bibi, I was simply acknowledging the fact that a woman`s role is much more vital in grooming the kids and taking care of family. I never implied that women should be deprived of education or freedom. Islam makes seeking knowldege obligatory on every Muslim. Freedom that women enjoy in Islam is unparalleled (please do not blame Islam if Men in our society exploit Women).

Both Men and Women have basic responsibilities and then there are others that need to be shared.
Despite so much advancement, roles of Men and Women can not be reversed. As mentioned earlier, men and women complement each other. There`s no such thing as dominance of one over the other in view of Islam. These things arise due to lack of knowledge of Islam and its interpretation. There should be a balance between duties and rights. Islam teaches us moderation and not extremism. Thus, as a Muslim, we should be moderate in everything we do.

Re Fawzia

Glad you enjoyed the article, yaar!

Hey there, Synic. That was quite a piece of writing (dogs). I read some of the other stuff and I think its a mixed bag. The piece on Abu Hurayra and the hadith`s he is responsible for repeating, was interesting and supported by some other material I have read. Some pieces, though, sound truly ``fundamentalist`` (and i dont use the term loosely like it is used in the US) and limiting. I get the sense that the site tries to separate the Quran from the Sunnah and the hadith. Which is a good step. But then promotes one version of the Quran. I dont know if you have read the quotes I posted earlier but they reiterate what Sohail , Saima and many others have been saying. Basically that human understanding of the Quran (interpretatin, in other words)changes and has to change with time, while the Quran does not. The conflation of human understanding and religious knowledge with religion itself is one of the biggest problems in religious debate. Many Muslims believe that what has been interpreted for them as the word of God is the word God. So any challenge is blasphemous. In fact, there are people in my family who are horror-struck if I say that a so-called Muslim scholar on TV does not make sense. Just because he is describing what he believes to be the meaning of a religious event or peice of writing doesnt mean that HE is divine and beyond reproach. Anyway, I am digressing...
...thanks for the reference. :)

I do wish Umair and Safwan would consider Sohail`s idea of ``open forums``.

Dear Brother-in-Islam: Sohail Rabbani,

I am delighted to read your response regarding Islam-bashing. Such discussions open the doors for sharing knowledge among the unbiased seekers of TRUTH. We all must thank Safwan and Umair for coming up with the idea of Chowk.

Like you and many others in this forum, I am also a student of science, Islam and Quran and hope that in this process, we would learn from each other`s knowledge. I have collected some information from the net that would help explain the stand of Islam and Quran as far as use of common sense, and logical reasoning is concerned in understanding the the very purpose of life. I agree with you that not all the followers of Islam specially in Indo-Pak realize the importance of knowledge. But why should Islam or Quran be blamed for that? A surgeon uses a knife to save human lives, a murderer uses it to take someone`s life away. It`s not the knife but the murderer to be accused of the heinous act. Doesn`t that sound logical? Obvioulsy, it does!

To appreciate the beauty of this Universe, and thus praise the Creator of all
living as well as non-living beings, one doesn`t need Harvard/Oxford/MIT degrees (Ideally, education definitely helps. If it doesn`t, I consider such an education a waste of time and effort). It requires sincerity on the part of the individual and common sense. Quran does not claim to be a book of science, history or geography. Quran is the book of GUIDANCE for the seekers of truth and guidance. After a study which lasted ten years, the famous French physician Maurice Bucaille adressed the French Academy of Medicine in 1976 and expressed the complete agreement of the Qur’an and established findings of modern science. He presented his study on the basis of certain verses in Quran concerning human physiology and reproduction. It`s simply amazing for educated and illiterate alike as
to how a book which is more than 1400 years old could have contained ideas that have only been discovered in recent times. The scientist in cooperation with Islamic scholars have identified about 1000 verses in Quran that confirm the discoveries/developments of modern science. Many scientists embraced Islam having accepted Quran as a divine revelation.

Please note that not everything can be explained with logic or reasoning. The best example would be birth and death. Despite so much advancement in medical science, many questions remain un-answered. Many in coma, and on death bed, recover without any treatment or medication and on the other hand, perfectly healthy persons pass away. Another example is when the predictions based on scientific knowledge fail. El-Nino was suppossed to bring some warmth this winter, yet we all witnessed the worst ice-storm in the history of Canada. A few years ago, western state of India suffered worst Earth quake despite no evidence of
earth quake in that region. My point is that science doesn`t explain every mystery of life/Universe. Humans though higly
intelligent compared to other living beings, do have certain limitaions. Without light, one can`t see anything despite perfect eyes and good eyesight. One can`t recognize/identify who is just behind. Humans can reason and use their their intelligence in the domain of ``Seen`` but they have little or no control over the domain of ``Unseen``. The divine directives are thus necessary to
guide us in the domain of ``Unseen`` which is beyond human perception.

WHAT IS LIFE ? Man`s existence in this world and the creation of this entire
universe are not mere accidents or products of a fortuitous nature. This universe,
every single atom of it, manifests and leads us to the realization of a Loving,
Merciful and All-powerful Creator. Without a Creator, nothing can exist. Every
single soul knows that he is existing and that his existence is dependent upon a
Creator he knows for sure that he cannot create him self. Therefore it is his duty to
know his master, the Creator.

MANKIND: Man is a unique creature. God establishes man as His representative
or deputy to govern over all other creatures in this world. He is endowed with the
faculty of REASON which sets him apart from all other animals. Together with
this faculty to discriminate and discern, man is given the freedom (free-will) to
choose for himself a way of life worthy of his position as God`s representative or
to fall lower than the lowest of all animals or creations. Man is born pure and
sinless and is given the choice to do righteous deeds or indulge in sins.

DIVINE GUIDANCE: The Creator, out of His abundant Love and Mercy for
mankind has not left us in darkness to discover the right path by trial and error
alone. Coupled with our intellectual capability to reason, our Creator bestowed
upon us DIVINE GUIDANCE that outlines the Criterion for TRUTH, knowledge,
as well as the reality of our existence in this world and the Hereafter.

REVELATIONS: From the beginning of mankind, our Creator sent prophets to
convey His REVELATION and to invite human beings to the path of true PEACE
and OBEDIENCE to the ONE TRUE GOD. This is ISLAM. This message is
conveyed towards successive generations of man through the different prophets, all
inviting mankind to the same path. However all the earlier messages or revelations
from God were distorted by people of later generations.

As a result, pure Revelation from our Creator was adulterated and polluted with
myths, superstitions, idol worship and irrational philosophical ideologies. The
religion of God in a sense was lost in a plethora of religions. Human history is a
testament of man`s drift between light and darkness, but God out of His Abundant
Love for mankind has not forsaken us.

FINAL REVELATIONS: When mankind was in the depths of the Dark Ages, our
Creator sent His final Messenger, prophet Mohammed (Peace be upon him) to redeem
humanity with the final revelation which represents the ultimate and permanent
source of guidance for the whole world.

CRITERIA FOR TRUTH: The following criteria can best serve as a gauge to find
out the authenticity of the last revelation (the Qur’an) as words of God:
1. Rational Teachings: Since our Creator bestowed reason and intellect
upon us, it is our duty to use it to distinguish the TRUTH from falsehood.
True, undistorted revelation from God must be rational and can be reasoned
out by all unbiased minds.

2. Perfection: Since our Creator is all perfect, His revelation must be perfect
and accurate, free from mistakes, omissions, interpolations and multiplicity of
versions. It should be free from contradictions in its narration.

3. No Myths or Superstitions: True revelation is free from myths or
superstitions that degrade the dignity of our Creator or man himself.

4. Scientific: Since our Creator is the Creator of all knowledge, true
revelation is scientific and can withstand the challenge of science at all times.

5. Factual Prophecy: Our Creator is the Knower of the past, present and
future. Thus His prophecies in His revelation will be fulfilled as prophesied.

6. Inimitable By Man: True revelation is infallible and cannot be imitated by
man. God`s true revelation is a Living miracle, an open book challenging all
mankind to see and prove for themselves its authenticity or veracity.


There is no compulsion for a person to accept the Truth, but it is certainly a
shame upon the human intellect when a man is not even interested in finding
out what is the Truth!

Islam teaches that our CREATOR has given human beings the faculty of
reason. Therefore, it is incumbent upon them to reason things out objectively
and systematically for themselves to ponder, to question and to reflect.

Nobody should press you to make a hasty decision to accept any of the
teachings of Islam, for Islam teaches that human beings should be given the
freedom to choose, even when a person is faced with the Truth, there is no
compulsion upon him to embrace it.

But before you begin to form an opinion about Islam, ask yourself whether
your existing knowledge about it is thorough enough. Ask yourself whether
that knowledge has been obtained through third party sources who
themselves have probably been exposed to only random glimpses of Islamic
writings and have yet to reason out on Islam objectively and systematically
themselves.

Is it fair enough that one should form an opinion about the taste of a
particular dish just by a mere hearsay from others who may themselves have
not necessarily tasted the dish yet?

Similarly you should find out for yourself about Islam from reliable sources
and not only taste it, but rather digest it very well before you form an opinion
of it. That would be an intellectual approach to the Truth.

In making your next move to the Truth, Islam continually reassures you that
your rights to freedom of choice and freedom to use that God-given faculty
of thought and reason will be respected, for everyone has that individual will.
No one else can take away that will and force you to submit to the will of our
CREATOR, you have to find out and make that decision yourself.

One will be surprised to learn that such a scientific approach has been commanded in the Qur’an
with the objective of ascertaining its truthfulness.

Do they not carefully consider (investigate) the Qur’an or are there locks upon
their hearts. [Surah 47:24]

Do they not carefully analyse the Quran. If it had been from other than Allaah
then surely they would have found many discrepancies therein [Surah 4:82]

So religious (that is Islamic) beliefs are not based upon blind acceptance as many have generalised
to all religions and thus falsely attributed to the Qur’an and Islam. This has been the experience of
Europe in the past 3-400 years in which scientific advancement and its findings were seen as
heretical, its proponents ridiculed and often exiled and tortured. Islam has never had that
experience.

It is true that academic capabilities differ from person to person and thus some will be unable to ascertain the truth
of it and therefore may accept it blindly. But again they have the opportunity to ask the people of
knowledge, those who are in a position to make such a judgement, like those quoted above. It is
from the principles of wisdom and justice that when you don’t know you don’t make a judgement
yourself but rather consult one who is in a position to do so. In fact this is something Allah has also
commanded:

So ask the People of Knowledge if you do not know [Surah 21:7]

and He has also said

And those who have been given Knowledge know that that which has been
revealed to you from your Lord is the Truth [Surah 34:6]

This is a clear proof of the lack of the dependance upon dogma, superstition and personal
experience and an indication of the obligation to research, ascertain and to verify in a scientific
manner the credibility of religious (Islamic) belief. Fortunately there are those who have done exactly
that like Keith Moore and his scientific colleagues but there are others who have invented lies and
slanders in order to discredit the Qur’an and the Prophet. However when these lies and slanders are
put to the test scientifically they fail miserably and their irrationality and bias becomes evident. Some
of the common claims are that Muhammad was possessed or was an eloquent poet or was a
magician or was one who was brainwashed or was a soothsayer. In fact all of these have been
denied and rebutted in the Qur’an itself in numerous places and numerous times. It is even more
strange that these were the very same claims made by the people who belied the Prophet during his
lifetime, and they are the only ones that are resorted to today. What a great advancement!

Nay! We hurl the Truth against falsehood and it does smash it’s brains and thus
it perishes. And woe be to you for what you describe (with your tongues) [Surah
21:18]