Christians of Pakistan

Asim, you have written a very courageous and thought-provoking article. You really point out to us that even though we claim to be Muslims, we still have a caste system when it comes to our Christian community. I would like to add (and this does not take anything away from the truth of your arguments) that the Goan Christian community, mostly settled in Karachi, are middle and upper-middle class professionals (secretaries, accountants, managers, teachers, airline executives, etc.). They are very distinct from the Punjabi Christian community and many of them like to keep this distinction intact by having separate churches, etc. (I have this from my Goan Christian Friends). Of course, this community is also stereotyped and discriminated against. But, given the economic condition of the christians in the Punjab, they suffer the most violence and brutality at the hands of their Muslim Pakistani brothers (and sisters?).

Very good article. Keep `em coming.

i have similar memories going to
school in karachi, where the muslim students
would sometimes not even drink from the
same water tap as christians. nor would they
sit next to the christians. we muslims seem
to have a superiority complex that causes
harm to many of minority groups. christian case
is bad enough. that of the ahemadis, and bahais
are worse.

Apart of the rights given to minorities or even to majority in Pakistan I think this should not be surprising to one that the same conception exists in western world as well. Beside the religion the most striking aspect of low-class christians so called `chooras` (sorry to say) in our society is their `janitorial` work and that fact reflects their paltry status that we used to avoide to sit next to them or even touch them rather their religion. Having a well appreciated and respectable status has always been an anecdote and this concept is not pervaded among us but people thruout the world believe on that. For instance in `Seinfeld` when George declines his mom`s advice to get any job by saying why she wanted to make him a mail-man despite of his college studies gives me a sense mail-man is not well respected job for college graduates and mail-man has not as much respect as a professor or scientist does. This provides a foundations of `OONCH and NEECH` communities apart of religion or faith. What one could think of cobbler, butcher, washer etc. what respect they earn in our society.

We people just ammused by the shine of commodities and status-quo and dilettant to maintain and develop the status no matter how and giving rights to people in Pakistan is no more than rant.

it is indeed true that many of the pakistanis who have expressed outrage may not have understood these issues if they`d remained in pakistan, myself included. the reason for this is not, in my view, about being exposed to `christian beliefs` etc. it has more to do with being exposed to different kinds of people. and in the ``west`` the elite pakistanis/muslims do not have the same status, and are forced to interact with people from different class backgrounds. the ``light`` hit me first when i realized that i had friends who were house-cleaners, waiters and janitors. That these same people in pakistan are treated so badly by people from elite upper class, and/or upper middle class backgrounds. This is one dimension of the reasons for the maltreatment of christians in pakistan.

The other reason lies in belief systems that look down at people of other religions as ``unclean`` or ``najis`` . To the extent that it is only about not eating food of certain religious groups, i`m willing to tolerate as a strictly personal belief. but when it is taken to the extent that it is with christians, bahahis, hindus in many muslim majority countries, it has crossed the boundry of personal religious belief, to active racist bigotry, and that has no place in any belief systems, least of all Islam.

from the Quran: 60:7 and 60:8

``It maybe that Allah will grant love (and friendship) between you and those whom ye (now) hold as enemies. For Allah has power (over all things); and Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most merciful

Allah forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) faith
nor drive you out of your homes,
From dealing kindly and justly with them: For Allah loveth those who are just.``

The trashy treatment of Christians and other non-Muslims in muslim majority countries are often based on verses that talk about ``enemity`` between the early muslims and the non-Muslims of those times. But as the above verses clearly show, that Muslims are to treat those non-Muslims who are not out to oppress Muslims with justice and kindness.

Where is the justice in the way we treat religious miniorities in these lands? no where, we follow the Quran selectively to our own conviniences and choosings...

altaf

http://www.wco.com/

Re Janet Hoffman

Thanks for sharing your experience with us Janet. I disagree with you though that if those of us who have resonated with the article had stayed in Pakistan, we would not have been `enlightened` by the Christian beliefs of the US (or the West) as you imply.

I grew up in Pakistan, most of my formative years. I had christian friends, with whom I shared clothes, food, etc. even though some of my distant relatives were horrified by this. I once had a major fight with an aunt 10 years ago, when she implied janitors were not human beings because they were non-Muslims and janitors. My aunt, who is known for her temper and sharp tongue, has not spoken to me since that day because I dared to argue with her. Anyway, I learnt to respect EVERYONE, whether christian, hindu, muslim, janitor, etc. from my father, who was born a Pakistani and a Muslim. He never used religion or tradition as an excuse to degrade human beings. And, I try to do the same.

I have learnt a lot and benefited from my educatio n in the US, but I am certainly not going to let anyone tell me that everything `enlightened` about my views is because of the US. Lets face it, all societies have bigots. Groups like the Aryan Nation and the Klu Klux Klan exist in the US. There are wonderful people in the US, as in Pakistan. And there are bigots here, as in Pakistan.

A very thought provoking article.

I just want to point out that the janitor community in Kashmir, known as `vaatal` is also
discriminated against in the same way ( separate utensils etc ) even though they are fellow Muslims. Many of them have chosen different professions now but…it pains me to say…the stigma still remains.

Clearly, religious intolerance in not the only
reason for the mistreatment of Pakistani Christians. We , in South Asia, are still hung up on the caste system.

chowkidar, i aggree with what you say
completely re: equality of all humans.
My comment was more on what i, personally,
could tolerate in others. But i`m interested
in what you say that it is a Hindu value
can you provide references 1) on it being a
hindu value, and 2) that this belief is
contrary to Islamic beliefs. There is so much
junk out there, just trying to get a different
perspective

altaf

Dear People,
It was a genuine pleasure to se that the article which i had forwarded was indeed published on this forum. You see i had severe doubts after the submission, abouit the probability of its ever being published, as i felt i had perhaps used too strong a language to condemn the divisive and prejudicial problem inherent in our culture. I used to check up regularly here to see if it was published for the two weeks i was in town, after the submission. But i had given hope about it, as i went offshore to work in the North Sea for a period of two weeks. Hence the delay in my comments regarding feedback i recieved.

So it was indeed a welcome sign to see that it finally made it. Your comments and feedback has been wonderful and also the support you all have given to show your resentment for such attitudes still prevailing in the 21st century is inded commendable.

My view to writing this article was in a way to get us, the supposedly educated minority of my country, to look a better unbiassed look at ourselves and do a reality check. Are we really being fair to the minorities even though they have the legislative rights for equality. This is indeed funny given the fact that we abroad are the ones always shouting for an end to discrimination for jobs, or when hitting the proverbial ``glass ceiling`` in our professions, past which no ``mere mortal third world professional`` can go through!!!!

I believe Janet pointed out that its ``liberated`` places like the west which get people like me to start thinking in a different way regarding injustices and what to do about them. My point here would be that all of us have a collective conscience, which is generally similar in terms of moral, ethical code and independent of religion. Its just that some of us have the conscience arena all locked up, so that we do not
have to fall victims to sympathy, human tolerance, and acceptance. But rest assured many a people in Pakistan are bold enough to call a spade a spade, in spite of taking the risk at being ostracised by an intolerant society. Of course their numbers are dwindling as a result of action which could be taken by the authorities..

Another landmark point which combats such prejudices, and intolerance is the lack of a proper educated working class. Education gives one the basis to stand tall and be free of fears of the unknown.The education system we have currently fails at producing people who think for themselves. Instead it churns out graduates with incredible ability to repeat textual information without much treatise for individual thought and development of new ideas. This leads to a breakdown in terms of development of a nation of freethinkers and produces a nation of followers, followers of whatever practices have been established by their forefathers, and carrying on with those traditions not questioning the validity of such practices.Education systems in the west do indeed offer the ability to think creatively, and to find ones true identity which helps one later in life by not having to lean on popular appeal or bend over backwards for acceptance within the clique.

I feel children are the way to the future, a cliched but true fact. So if we get to drum in the values of tolerance and sympathy for their fellow being, be it christian, jew, black, pink, white, brown, or with red polka dots, and lead by example in dealing with such people, they will grow up to be free of the shackles of preconceived, a priori judgements we have inherited from our forefathers.

At least i would hope that the people who read this article would make a definite change in their dealings with Christians and other minorities in my country, and give them the staus they deserve, of all living in my country to be called Pakistanis first and foremost....

wishful thinking or a reaality one day? Its up to make it happen.


Chowk is an enlightened place to share synergies and ideas. i wish the chowkidars all the best in having the patience and the vision to keep reforming and upgrading the service it is providing to the Pakistani people in changing the way they think, feel, interact, and use their resources to do something positive about the state of affairs of a severely debilitated country like ours.

Regards

Asim

chowkidar: thanks for the info. yes it is
unfortunate that these practices have
been elevated to the level of muslim law.

maulana: the list of people you`ve given are
maltreated, however, it is only the religious
minorities that are treated badly by the population
in general. Exceptions of equal treatment do
exist, but by far the treatment is horrible.
Ahemadis are not allowed to practice their religion,
and Christians have also been killed, and faced
intimidations in recent years. Hence political
asylum issue...

maulana

fair enough, you`ve made a good point that even muslims are killed in Pakistan. And to that extent we should indeed focus on, all those who are oppressed in Pakistan. I still, however, see a difference in the treatment of religious minorities such as Ahemadis, Christians, and Hindus, in that there is a general view against them. The shiahs do not have the general population mistreating them (unless this has changed since the last time i visited Karachi, a couple `o years back) and it is an extremist/fanatical group that did the killing in Lahore. *However * this fanaticism is indeed spreading.

As for sitting in enjoying luxury in the US/North America or elsewhere in the ``west``. That is nothing but a stereotype of the life that Pakistanis live here. Many many of us are struggling to survive here. But tell me maulana sahib, i assume you are in Pakistan, what are you doing to change the situation? Try inspiring people to return to the ``motherland`` instead of criticism...

altaf

http://www.wco.com/

Re : Maulana Sahib

This is indeed getting interesting. Maulana sahib you are right that there are other sects, groups too which are maltreated in Pakistan and there are a myriad of other social, educational, and economical problems too eating away at the very foundations of this country. My dilemma was which one shall I choose to write about first.

I discovered that the minorities in my country be it christians, or other non-Islamic religious affiliations are the worst treated. Why? Because they are looked upon as non-believers and hence kafirs, and therefore wajib-ul-qatl!!! Maybe this is an exaggerated view, maybe its the truth. This is a multi-faceted problem of perception. But it stands to reason that our social tolerance for any groups not conforming to our stereotypical role of a Sunni Muslim, are to be openly ridiculed, discriminated, and humiliated.I have tried to limit my article to the Christians in particular and the other Non-Islamic religious groups. I am not even attempting to touch up on the Ahmedi/Shia/Sunni debate yet, as i believe that is altogther another ballgame, which deserves a complete new approach and understanding to arrive at the situation (read as mess) we are in today. That i shall keep for another opportune moment.

As a result of the broadbased kafir definition of the minorities, the average Pakistani considers himself above the law in dealing with these poor souls. Indeed most of us shun these people of the book (ahle-kitaab), not knowing the ``C`` of what Christianity is all about. On the contrary, its the Minorities of our country who know the Islamic religion so well, since they are dished out a treatment which they simply do not deserve, in the name of Islam. I thought Islam told us to believe in tolerance of others, and to give respect to others beliefs, as long as those beliefs are not thrust down ones throat. These people, the Christians and the other Non-Islamic sects, can hardly be accused of such a sin. This is not a generalisation, as Maulana sahib, this much you have to accept as you can not back away from truth.

Just take a quiet moment and examine your own inner self, ask yourself a question have you been fair in dealing with a man whom you discover later is a christian or belonging to another religious affiliation. Does your attitude and the amount of consideration, sympathy towards that individual not change an iota based on this knowledge. If you are able to deal with such a person in an unbiassed manner then i must say you perhaps are a better humanitarian than most of my countrymen and hence are the exception rather than the rule, and its people like yourself we need in our country to educate the average Mohd feeqah (Average Joe)to open up his heart and let in the light. Please dont consider this as an aspersion on your character, for it is not. It is merely a check to see within your heart of hearts, without any soul knowing how you feel save the almighty Allah.

You mention treatment of children, women and other issues. Indeed i have already submitted another article this morning about the plight of rural women in Pakistan, and the impact of feudalism on our culture for the review of Chokwallahs. Inshallah when it gets approved, you might get to see what i have to say there. So you see, one has to be concerned enough about Pakistan to devote so much time to research, or organise ones thoughts, and use whatever non-existent spare time one has within the hectic lifestyle in the west to invest something back to ones home country.

You accuse us as ``people who have left home``, what concern is it of ours to see If Pakistan Survives or perishes. Well, pardon me for saying, but thats where you are out of your depth, Sir. Accusing us of being armchair visionaries maybe partially right, but without vision nothing gets accomplished. Chaudry Rehmat Ali had a vision, for without it you would still be a maulana sahib in Hindu-majority India. Have you perhaps possibly considered some of us did go back to Pakistan after studying abroad to equip ourselves with the latest information on new technologies, vibrance and energies ready to put to good use to alleviate the sickness within Pakistan. But it turned out we were not required there, we were told not to produce foreign degrees as proofs of our intellect, ability, qualifications, instaed we were asked where were we born? In Punjab or Sind, What language did we speak at home? Urdu, punjabi, sindhi, baluchi. What do our parents do? Who does my father know in higher up places? Can he get the interviewers nephew, neice, sone, daughter, brother-in-law suitable employment here or abroad via recommendations, what recommendations i had.... not educational ofcourse.

Then you get on your high horse, and look down on us little people, who left the country not of their free will, but as an economic necessity. Still its us the so called sons who forgot their land, who send valuable foreign exchange regularly back to give this sick land the injection addiction it has so become used to in order to merely keep breathing.Its the pakistanis abroad who help out in whatever capacity, albeit not on a grand scale, but nevertheless to increase foreign reserves, without which, the country would have been sold to the highest bidder decades ago, except now even the ``World Auctioneers``(IMF) hesitate to put a price on the net value of this country you call it your own. As it stands it is perhaps more valuable in parts than the total of all its parts. Its called hostile takeover, buy it and break it and make money from its parts but i digress.

Maulana sahib, One does not want to leave ones country if the country has what one needs to progress and survive. Take case of Norway where i am currently living. It has a healthy infrastructure, primarily due to the 2 million barrels per day of oil, everybody is happy, nobody wants to go outside and work, as the norwegians are fortunate enough to get much from life while at home. Its altogether different for third world countries like ours who are living on borrowed times from the IMF. Till such time as we hit mentionable natural reserves in excess of 1 million barrels per day, we can not justify all staying back and dying of lack of creative and satisfying jobs to do. I do not want to be the frog at the bottom of a water well thinking this is the world, here. i wanted to jump out of the stagnant water, to see far away places, and thenc ome back and tell the other resident frogs who thought the well was their world about stories from distant lands, an encourgae them to change their own destinies.

Perhaps, i am very charged on this issue, but this does rock my nerve to hear sentiments like the ones maulana sahib mentioned time and again. we, who are living abroad, are looked upon as traitors and that we dont give a damn, when indeed its perhaps the people abroad who miss this wonderful land and are deeply hurt to see it going as a lost cause and want to brain-wave and try to come up with schemes to better the system and somehow make it come out of the maelstrom it is currently heading into.U want proof of that. Just viosit any customs office at the airports and see how much respect, and etiquette these hard toiling sons of the land get on return to their sohni dharti. OK the educated are treated a bit better, but u should check out the way the poor pathans from the gulf countries are treated, and these poor pathans labour in the hottest of climates 50 Degc in the shade watering the emirates to make it greener for the golfers from the world to unite. These pathans too send in foreign exchange and yet they are treated as if they are robbers....

P.S I still visit my country regularly, and am continuosly disappointed to see no change in the mentality, perception, and persona of the people. Indeed not much can be improved in a country which has an abysmal educational record, along with various other records of intolerance and such as the ones maulana sahib has mentioned.

I will not say i am a proud Pakistani, for we have little to be proud about, except we are still here on the map as an independent country. thats our biggest achievement so far, in fifty years. amazing fact indeed. But i have alot of regard for my homeland, and sitting here i feel i can do lot more good for my country, if even in terms of articles like the one under attack, or the mere matter of economics, the hard earned green paperbacks flowing back in, than to be in Pakistan and sitting on my backside, and writing articles. For then i might not even had enough to provide two meals a day for my family let alone the time to write about the plight of Christians, and even then certainly not on this expensive medium.

Maslows hierarchy Model of motivation clearly shows that in order for humans to achieve something in life they have to have at the bottom rung of needs, basic requirements such as air, water, food. The next step is the emotional fulfilment arena, whereby the need for love and recognition comes in, and its on the third rung, the ability to be all that one can be comes into the picture. Take away air water food, and the would be aspiring achiever dies. take away the emotional contacts and the guy loses psychological perspective on life. So if Pakistan doers not provide me with a job to provide food, an essential factor, i am of no use to Pakistan, as i am going to be a mere casualty in the millions of casulaties we have every year.

I apologise for the lengthy response, but i felt i had to get it all off my chest at least once so that i am not called a traitor any more than Mohd feeqa (average Joe) from Lahore.

Maulan Sahib, please have the courtesy to come back and comment on what i had to write, if it was right or wrong. Yes indeed i took another 2 hours out my life to write the following detailed account of the persecution of the Pakistani Expatriates at the hands of people like yourself who are ot to crucify us, for the mere fact that we dont live in Pakistan any more.

I would love to hear your views and criticism about the validity of the claims i had made.

Last but not the least, like another learned contributor had pointed out, ``What has your holiness achieved while staying in Pakistan, for the betterment of my country, i am sorry, ``your`` Pakistan``.

A gentlleman calling himself AlBeruni, wrote to me saying the following. I am just pasting his reply here.

.....
Here you are wrong Mr. Hayat. Urban educated Christians have made tremendous gains in social and economic arena. Just like Afrrican-Americans have come a long way from the 1960 era. On the other hand, Pakistani Christians  always
had the right to vote.

Based on their class, Christians are accepted by their neighbors and their co-workers as equals. Although I won`t deny ``he hates me because I am fat`` syndrome, which can exist whenever you are a bit different from the lot.

Poor Christians in villages have as many rights as any other poor Muslim.Maltreatment at the hands of authority is a common problem for all the
poors.

Do write about oppressed classes but avoid the sensational statements like ``Wajib-ul-Qatl`` (or must-be-killed). Mo has already taken over this ``damn you Muslims`` task, and he is doing pretty good job.

Yes it is exaggerated and no it is not THE truth. Examples of Rehmat Massih are rare and often complicated by the mis-information spread by some
self-righteous newsmen, Mullahs, and pseudo-intellectuals.


This is what i had to say to the gentleman above:

1. Why is it that one still does not see ``them`` being accepted in to our
society as positive contributing individuals?

2. Why is it that unlike U.K, where the minorities have a chance of being elected into government positions, ``their`` chances are next to nothing, surely not proportional for their representation?

3. Why is it that when I had sent a message of Merry Christmas to my Christian Brethren in Pakistan, i was met with a barrage of fire from the respectable pseudo-intellectuals like yourself on why did i have to do that,
why did i not just say Eid MubArk to the Muslims only.? What is this madness?

4. Why is it that nobody bothered to comment on my first posting about these silent masses here on soc.culture.Pakistan? Because we are simply not
interested to hear about these oppressed people

5.Why is it that you are doing mere lip service to their cause, by saying that a ``handful`` of them are doing pretty well, considering they are alive..... in Pakistan and surviving(you forgot to add)``.

6. What percentage of the actual Christian population is doing well, according to you?You write that they have made tremendous social and
economic gains, can u please elaborate on the net percentage of people from their classes living above the abject poverty line, and being persecuted royally by people like yourself and myself for their ``differentness``

7. look at the facts and then come armed with to talk about treatment of these people.Have you been fair in your dealings with them. When you wee
growing up, did your mother not have separate drinking and eating utensils for these people, saying oh these people are dirty. Have you never looked at these Janitor ladies, specially the young ones as mere objects of desire.

8. Have you not ever made Fun of their Christian names. ?

9. Have you not called them racist derogatory names ever? Does the collective word we have for people like ``them``, which I mention in my article ring a bell. Why do we always associate them as janitors and cleaning folk, is that all they are good at. My learned friend the phobias
we have about them are calculated, they are nurtured by ill-information and not due to nature.
and Allah Forbid, not on HIS directive..

10. The authorities and the common man on the street like yourself and myself
are the true criminals of these people. I am merely writing to change that perspective or create an awareness.

11. Well the view i had given is of the ignorant masses, of my country, who incorrectly assume because the christians are kafirs, then kafirs are wajib-ul-qatl. Arent they Mr Beruni ?Would you not think of taking the law in your hands to teach these people a lesson, if they ever did you a slightest of wrong, rather than pursuing a court case on them. I believe you like the millions of other countrymen of mine would make a summary judgement on these people for thir wrong doing withouit even thinking twice, about perhaps calling the authorities to hadle it. Its this desire to play God, and dish out summary judgements, by the average Mr Feeqah Mohd on these people, that forced me to write in the first place.

I dont care if Mo writes a thousand inflammatory articles about the status of affairs in Pakistan. Maybe he is doing some good, considering that it
requires a third party to tell us our shortcomings. A critical look at our conscience from time to time always pays off. Learn to take a critical look at your actions, at the end of each day and you just might learn something.
Remember, you too will have to undergo an Ehtesab check on the final day of judgement. Learn to prepare for the wrath of Allah, as this is not the way ``HE`` would have wanted us the ignorant, ill educated, stubborn, bigoted, and moronic people of Pakistan to treat the rest of ``HIS`` creations.

Did you see the dejection, the hopelessness on the faces of these people as they were being evicted from kucchi abadiyan in Lahore in the seventies. Even as a child, I had seen these downtrodden people in Gulberg being shoved around
like cattle, roughly by the police who took sadistic pleasure in pushing them away from their ``weak`` homes, being ill treated because they were
different. So dont try to downplay the difference which is an extreme one by saying that people are slightly mistreated because ``He hates me because I am fat``. .... My parents certainly did not treat me like a child when i had asked them, why are they being treated bad by the police. Mr Beruni, you are not talking to a child any more

P.S Dont justify the paltry good that has been done for the Christians, but try to justify the no-action, non-existent approach to better their cause as a free race to practice their religion, where the legislation guarantees the religious freedom of the minorities. Put your money where your mouth is.

P.S 2 But you failed to comment on the topic of the posting about the treatment of expat pakistanis within Pakistan.

Remember, i care enough for my country to bring the problems of the country to the foreground, rather than sweeping them under the rug,. Its akin to an ostrich hiding its head in sand, thinking that since it cant see any hunters, it must be safe.I am encouraging people to think and find solutions, not to justify the present wrong system...So dont defend it, please as it is not worth defending......

Sallaam ailaikum

I want to first of all commend the author for taking the time to respond to the various accusations that such an article is bound to recieve. Your responses are well articulated, and the time you`ve taken to respond to them is well worth it... I have the following additional comments to a couple of things...

following was written by the author of the article.

``11. Well the view i had given is of the ignorant masses, of my country, who incorrectly assume because the christians are kafirs, then kafirs are wajib-ul-qatl. Arent they Mr Beruni ?``

Response: My understanding of wajib-ul-Qatl is that it does not include the ``people of the book`` i.e. Christians and Jews, infact it does not even include people of anyother religion, unless they are actively oppressing Muslims. In which case for defensive purposes one may pick up arms.

The people who many ulema consider to be wajib-ul-Qatl are the apostates; the earlier article points out how the Quran does not say anywhere that they are to be killed. I`d recommend a book co-authored by AbdulAziz Sachedina on human rights in different faith traditions, which goes into a little on the reasons for this rulling. Please note that i`m not justifying this, or saying that the apostates are wajib-ul-Qatal, merely saying how most ulema have justified it... -so please no flames towards me :) I do not believe in this rulling...

``Remember, you too will have to undergo an Ehtesab check on the final day of judgement. Learn to prepare for the wrath of Allah, as this is not the way ``HE`` would have wanted us the ignorant, ill educated, stubborn, bigoted, and moronic people of Pakistan to treat the rest of ``HIS`` creations.``

I completely aggree with you, and we have to be critical. We have spent so much time under dictatorships, where voicing of opinions were banned, that any dissenting voice is looked at with intense suspicion. We need to also take a critical look at religious leaders who are issuing edicts of ``wajib-ul-Qatls``. Unfortunately so many of the people have not read the Quran, and simply go by what the maulanas tell them to do.

altaf

http://www.wco.com/

Altaf Bhimji says:
`The other reason [for maltreatment of Christians in Pakistan] lies in belief systems that look down at people of other religions as ``unclean`` or ``najis``.`

Chowkidar adds:
``The so-called `belief system` he talks about is not an Islamic value. It is truly an offshoot of the Hindu Culture and not Hindu Religion.``

The following may open these gentlemen`s eyes:
``O ye who believe! Truly the Pagans are unclean; so let them not, after this year of theirs,
approach the Sacred Mosque. And if ye fear poverty, soon will Allah enrich you, if He wills, out of His bounty, for Allah is All-knowing, All-wise.`` [Al-baraa`ah: 28]

Insofar as our snobbery towards lower-class Christians is concerned, the poor man of any faith is a victim of this despicable behavior. But the plight of Pakistani Christians -and other religious minorities- goes beyond this triviality. It is about state-discrimination against them: denial of joint electorates, restricted rights in Shariat courts and most importantly, blasphemy laws that are inherently unfair, unjust and intolerant. And where the state stops, the citizens continue in form of taunts and abuses: sometimes subtle, sometimes defiant and blatant.

``And the Jews say: Uzair is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of
Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away! `` (9:30)

Contrary to what the consensus seems to be, such intolerance is taught and legitimized by Islam. The Qur`an is replete with angry polemic and abusive language towards non-believers. The above are not words of tolerance. They are words of confrontation and hate.

Those of us educated in the Western system quickly learned the value of understanding and tolerance. These are not Christian values as Qadri sahib or Mr.Hoffman would have us believe, but the lessons from a long and painful awakenig to the fact that there is no rational basis for religion - anyone else`s or our own. Together with such awakening, comes a desire to synergize two contradicting ideals: rationality and religion. Efforts on this forum to paint Islam as a peaceful and tolerant religion stem from this confusion.

Now to Mr.Qadri who himself appends maulana in front of his name..
You said you are bleeding in Pakistan. Last time I checked the coffers of your Idara-Minhaj-ul-Quran were quite full, and you were drawing pretty big crowds in Rahmania Mosque on Tariq Road. The common man in Pakistan might be bleeding, but you sir, certainly are not. Contrary to what you think, most of us out here do hard work for a living. Whatever we make, we send a good chunk of it back home, into YOUR economy. Maybe we are not in the trenches, but we have done more for the country than mullahs or politicians. You happen to be both. So before you come out and give us a sermon on patriotism, stop eating those gulab jamuns and try doing something substantial.

MNI

Well spoken Farouq.

Indeed the maulana is trying to ``coerce`` us, for want of a better word, into putting our heads down in shame for having ``deserted`` our homeland. Except in your case and millions of others this is not a valid comment either, and yet they too feel about giving something back to this country for the sake of the fathers, and grandfathers.
I am not going to put my head down in shame about this accusation, as it is mere ploy to curtaiul the credibility of an opponent. I shall always walk tall in my personal beliefs, and only put my head down in shame when i am asked to talk about the state of affairs about my crying country.

About Foreign exchange flying in, all i can say is the conception as maulana sahib suggested was ``The Lord giveth, and he kept on giving..``.and it does not matter what the source is.

Incidentally on a lighter note, the expression about the Lord was used by Steve Martin in the eighties movie ``Roxanne`` when asked to speak about his Very long nose(from the french folklore) in an eloquent manner, and giving fifty reasons as to why he is not embarrased about it. .
And he indeed provided fifty good reasons why a long nose was immensely useful....

We need some lighter conversation here badly as well, and hence the above .

Regards

Asim