Please spare the poor animals this Eid!

Dear Wasiq

Before calling my opinion a hoax, if you are interested I can send you the entire bibliography of the research papers on such experiments published in scientific journals such as Nature, Behavioral Biology, National Wildlife, American Scientist, Canadian Journal of Botany, Journal of

Parapsychology - just to name few. I have many of these papers with me if you are interested. You can also get these references from the book I had mentioned earlier. In any case I am not arguing about the validity of these. I was just trying to

show the futility of the debate on which method of slaughtering is least painful etc.

Yousuf

What has shocked me most in this entire debate is the argument that muslim way of slaughtering is the least painful for the animal, especially the reply #125 by Satrangi that talks of an experiment by some Dubai scientists proving that Halal method is least painful. Those who believe this I would invite them to read a book called The Secret Life of Plants (Peter Tompkins & Christopher Bird) - Penguin, which concludes how

living organisms including plants are more sensitive to pain and suffering than even humans.

I would briefly qoute here one experiment: One US scientist Clee Backster connected an ordinary potted plant to a galvanometer with electrodes to see how it would react to different situations.

Firstly, he decided to burn the plant`s leaves and see its reaction on the graph. He went out to get a match and came back to realize that the galvanometer had already recorded a very steep

curve of the graph - at the very moment he had thought of burning the plant! Does it mean that the plant could read Backster`s mind and gave a shriek in terror. Of course such experiments

were later confirmed by many others and this book is full of them - proving the extra-sensitivity of living organisms.

So to me, Halaal or Jhatka, it makes no difference as far as the pain is concerned. Though I am not saying that we should stop consuming even plants as they percieve pain. After all as a race ``superior`` to other organisms in the food chain, we have an ecological right to consume them. But the least we can do is to kill them in the needed quantity only and not in excess, as happens during qurbani.

You seem to be a person who takes pride in abusing and bad mouthing others and are also arrogant. ``Full of sound and fury signifying nothing``` best describes your current writings. You accuse me of

``following mindlessly``, even though I put a lot of thought in what I follow. I take your remark as a compliment. For as Imam Ghazali said `` When faith enters reason departs``. You also accuse me of not thinking about the articles of Islam. For the past 2o years I have been a student of Islamic theology and am currently memorising Quran and also have spent countless hours contemplating each and every aspect of our faith.

Asalaamu Alaikum

I dont understand what kind of a muslim you are. How can anyone crticise such an important commemoration of our faith. One of the wisdom behind the animal sacrifice is that some people raise these animals for 3-6 months before Bakr Eid and they get kind of attached to the animal and yet on the eid day they sacrifice the animal. Why????? Simply because Allah, our creator commanded us to do so. Thelife of the animal is not created by us but it is by Allah and you have to follow Allah no matter how hard it is on you.

Besides modern research shows that even plants have emtion e.g;they also cry. So why dont you stop feasting on those poor little lettuces, cabbages and those cute tomatoes?

Asalaamu Alaikum

I dont understand what kind of a muslim you are. How can anyone crticise such an important commemoration of our faith. One of the wisdom behind the animal sacrifice is that some people raise these animals for 3-6 months before Bakr Eid and they get kind of attached to the animal and yet on the eid day they sacrifice the animal. Why????? Simply because Allah, our creator commanded us to do so. Thelife of the animal is not created by us but it is by Allah and you have to follow Allah no matter how hard it is on you.

Besides modern research shows that even plants have emtion e.g;they also cry. So why dont you stop feasting on those poor little lettuces, cabbages and those cute tomatoes?

Asalaamu Alaikum

I dont understand what kind of a muslim you are. How can anyone crticise such an important commemoration of our faith. One of the wisdom behind the animal sacrifice is that some people raise these animals for 3-6 months before Bakr Eid and they get kind of attached to the animal and yet on the eid day they sacrifice the animal. Why????? Simply because Allah, our creator commanded us to do so. Thelife of the animal is not created by us but it is by Allah and you have to follow Allah no matter how hard it is on you.

Besides modern research shows that even plants have emtion e.g;they also cry. So why dont you stop feasting on those poor little lettuces, cabbages and those cute tomatoes?

Asalaamu Alaikum

I dont understand what kind of a muslim you are. How can anyone crticise such an important commemoration of our faith. One of the wisdom behind the animal sacrifice is that some people raise these animals for 3-6 months before Bakr Eid and they get kind of attached to the animal and yet on the eid day they sacrifice the animal. Why????? Simply because Allah, our creator commanded us to do so. Thelife of the animal is not created by us but it is by Allah and you have to follow Allah no matter how hard it is on you.

Besides modern research shows that even plants have emtion e.g;they also cry. So why dont you stop feasting on those poor little lettuces, cabbages and those cute tomatoes?

...I wonder if he eats meat. I bet you he does.

Wither his concern for ``poor animals`` there?

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i am with you, i have also given up on this ritual, we can better things with our time and money.

#Noor

Good to see a well read believer.

Basis of my argument was:

http://www.submission.org/Ismail.html

I hope that explains everything.

Shamsi

``shamsi@hotmail.com``

Well well well...shamsi sahib, here`s the quote from a(l)Saaffaat: Starting with aayah 103:

He said: ``I will go to my Lord! He will surely guide me!

``O my Lord! Grant me a righteous (son)!``

So We gave him the good news of a boy ready to suffer and forbear.

Then, when (the son) reached (the age of) (serious) work with him, he said: ``O my son! I see in vision that I offer thee in sacrifice: Now see what is thy view!`` (The son) said: ``O my father! Do as thou art commanded: thou will find me, if Allah so wills one practising Patience and Constancy!``

So when they had both submitted their wills (to Allah), and he had laid him prostrate on his forehead (for sacrifice),

We called out to him ``O Abraham!

``Thou hast already fulfilled the vision!`` - thus indeed do We reward those who do right.

For this was obviously a trial-

And We ransomed him with a momentous sacrifice:

Hope that sets the record straight.

Noor

Why sacrifice goats and sheep when Serbs still walk the streets? Shame on you all! Find better uses for your knives ...

#Noor



I find the spirit of slaughtering more barbaric than the slaughter itself. Glorifying a god that asked someone to slaughter his son just for the kicks of it, and a person who was ready to kill his son because god told him so....sorry..I cannot understand this. And shaytaan , the voice of humanity and kindness in this myth, is pelted with rocks...

______

A

hem.... you sure have gotten things mixed up. By Eid Qurbani, you are not glorifying ``God``, you are learning to sacrifice a belonging, a virtue I believe, In rememberance of the will to sacrifice his beloved son Abraham had. ``God`` did not tell Abraham to ``kill`` his son, that;s biblical; according to Koran, it was a dream to sacrifice something beloved, and a ram was sent to save Abr. son`s life, a miracle within itself.

Pelting on stone is again a `ritual` rememberance or Satin`s everlasting efforts to disarray the believers.

Then my friends, I realize that (some of) my fellow chowkies are pretty agnostic, and don`t buy religious arguments. Ah Well, just my 0.03 $ anyway.

Okay, I resisted the temptation..but not any more. So I will reiterate what I said a year ago about this...

I find the spirit of slaughtering more barbaric than the slaughter itself. Glorifying a god that asked someone to slaughter his son just for the kicks of it, and a person who was ready to kill his son because god told him so....sorry..I cannot understand this. And shaytaan , the voice of humanity and kindness in this myth, is pelted with rocks...

Funny, I guess this emotionless medium does not rightly convey the sarcasm in my speech. About pork, I wouldn`t know. If you think that pork and it`s relatives are delicious, good for you. I would stick with my steak and lamb(mutton).

You did not get me. I don`t sacrifice goats as it ``the thing`` to do. I do it as an Islamic ritual. I won`t try pork, or slitting a swine. How can you corelate? jeeeezzz. Sir jee, if you think this practice is barbaric, please refrain from it. I will not call you an infidel.

``Yay Ajeeb majraa hay kay baroz-e-Eid-e-Qurbaan
Wahi zibbha bhi karay hay Wahi lay swaab ulta``

Insha Khan Insha

Re: Satrangi and others

I think stringing an animal up and slitting its throat just so Muslims can have hygeinic meat is sick. I have tried to see the spiritual in a barbaric custom as long as I can remember. It didnt work. At most there may be some practical benefit for deprived poverty ridden women and children, who are the last to be given protein/meat in their households. That is about all that my imagination allows.

I doubt that animals are NOT in pain when their throats are cut. The terror itself must be sick. Maybe a doctor can shed light on this one.

Re: shamsi

`` Yes, I have been `savage` enough to cut a goat`s throat, hold it while it flutters it`s last breath, and then feel bad for hours later, and unable to consume the meat etc. I did it in the name of belief in the theology we all pretend to believe. Meat might be murder, but it tastes delicious. ``

Do you know that pork is delicious too. In fact i would anyday take a well cooked sausage / bacon / pepperoni than mutton. Why don`t you give that a try too.............? And while at that extoll the virtues of slitting the throat of a pig.

iconoclast

ADVANTAGES OF ISLAMIC WAY OF SLAUGHTERING OVER OTHER METHODS:



DUBAI :

The traditional Islamic method of slaughtering livestock is the best way of

reducing pain for animals and getting hygienic meat according to a recent

study released by the Culinary Art Club at the Abu Dhabi Cultural

Foundation , says a report in the Khaleeej Times .

The study was conducted by two researchers through tracking electrical

signals of the brain and heart reflecting the level of pain that the animal

feels during the slaughtering process .The study was applied on two methods

, including the traditional Islamic or Halal method and the capital bolt

stunning.

During the experiment brain and heart signals were recorded in all animals

before and during the course of slaughtering and stunning .The Halal method

proved that the first three seconds of slaugthering showed no changes in

brain signals compared to recorded data before the process and this

indicated that the animal did not feel any pain or very little lain during

or immediately after the incision .

``For the following three seconds the brain signals recorded a condition of

deep sleep and unconsciousness .This is due to a large quantity of blood

gushing out and makes the animal unconscious immediately ``

the study said .At the end of this stage the brain stopped working and the

heart continued to function for some time so the brain signals recorded

zero level showing no feeling of pain at all.

``As the brain message dropped to zero level , the heart was still pounding

and the body was convulsating vigorously , a reflex action of the spinal

cord, and this was driving maximum blood from the body resulting in

hygienic meat for the consumers,``the study added .

It pointed out that the experiment proved that the Halal method was best

because it lead to stopping the brain very fast making the whole process

nearly painless while the heart kept working to make the meat healthy for

consumption .The stunning method showed that the animal was apparently

unconscious but the brain was still working leading to severe pain signals

immediately after stunning .

The heart of the stunned animal stopped working before ther brain so the

feeling of pain was very high leading to the retention of more blood in the

meat and this in turn was unhygienic for consumers and painful death for

the animals.

KARACHI, March 31: Karachiites offered sacrifices of about 600,000 animals during the three days of Eidul Azha in pursuance of the supreme sacrifice rendered by Hazrat Ibrahim (AS).

According to a survey conducted by a 15-member team of Karachi University`s Department of Social Work, some 2,00,000 cows and bulls were sacrificed in the city while over 3,50,000 goats and sheep and 150 camels were slaughtered in all the five districts.

According to survey, about 2,00,000 sacrificial animals were slaughtered each in Karachi`s districts of East and Central. The figure for District South was 1,00,000

while that of District West and Malir was 60,000 and 25,000 each.

The survey team noted that the number of sacrificial animals exceeded the figures

of the previous year.

OK, Much said already, here is my $ 0.02.

Info about sacrificial meat being buried is dated. Saudi Arabia now ships the meat to all muslim countries for distribution, including Pakistan.

Among the `problems` of Qurbani, I miss my mom`s freshly made roast chops, roasted kalegi, the fun of collecting hides for charity, feeding goats or whatever, going from basti to basti in karachi to distribute meat among the poor, etc.

If you are in pakistan and complianing, enjoy the good aspects while you have them. For people away like me, I can`t wait to do Qurbani again.

Yes, I have been `savage` enough to cut a goat`s throat, hold it while it flutters it`s last breath, and then feel bad for hours later, and unable to consume the meat etc. I did it in the name of belief in the theology we all pretend to believe. Meat might be murder, but it tastes delicious.

Why not use the carcasses for research?

500,000 animals killed in Saudi Arabia alone.

RIYADH (Reuters) -- Nearly half a million sheep, cattle and camels were sacrificed during this year`s annual Muslom hajj pilgrimage in Saudi Arabia, an official said on Tuesday.

The official Saudi Press Agency quoted Islamic Development Bank President Ahmed bin Mohammad Ali as saying that the 1.7 million pilgrims attending the hajj had sacrificed 464,614 sheep and 9,076 cows and camels.

The bank is the main body in charge of the sacrifice, a ritual under which Muslim pilgrims slaughter animals and donate their meat to the needy in Islamic countries.

The agency said most of the meat was frozen, packed and shipped to countries in Africa and Asia.

Some 700,000 sheep and 20,000 cattle were sacrificed at last year`s pilgrimage. This year`s Hajj officially ended on Monday.

Just a couple of days ago, I was discussing this topic with someone, who suggested I read your article.

I think what bothers me most about qurbani is the atmosphere or revelry that surrounds it. I have heard parents say to their kids, ``kal bakra katega,`` building up an excitement so that kids may actually think the public killing of a helpless animal is cool.

I remember as a 5 year old not understanding the significance of the whole event, and being really excited about the whole. On the morning of Bakr Eid I stood at the front of a group (to get a good view) of family members and friends, talkative and excited. And then, the goat which I had fed for two weeks, and rushed out to play with, as he would gently butt me, was killed in a horrifying spectacle while people cheered with happiness. I threw up after that, had nightmares, and in later years I would leave and go outside. I could still hear the excruciating cries of each sacrifice, however. And I sure as hell, never played with the many goats who passed through our house.

I have a question, i was having a discussion with an atheist who claims matter to be eternal, ie infinite with respect to time. Any views on this?

And is infintie a valid oncpet to begin with, where is it obervable r even present in our reality.

Mr. Bokhari,

I don`t agree with you ( duh, as most people who are blinded by religion will not (an enticing tangent, isn`t it?) ). I am however, highly amused :) Look at the discussion you have generated. Congratulations on acheiving what you set out to do and I suppose as an afterthought, you are now in the middle of this raging debate :))

Well done.

(not my steak, the article :)

qurbani is not a blind tradition it is u may call it the blind faith of true muslims.

ismael alaih-e-salaam was not slaughtered but did u know that a lamb was slaughtered instead which was found there in ismael`s place when prophet ibrahim opened his eyes?

i REALLY dont understand y people are against qurbani when they eat meat almost everyday around the year.

meat may have been wasted a little in hajs before but now they have pretty good arrangements to collect all the meat that people cannot take with them and send them to poor countries in the neighbor.

qurnbani on eid brings great pleasure in our house.my father does it by himself and my bros help.we wake up the kids early to show them too.we get sad but then this is part of it.its just natural to slaughter animals for our food.think about every animal killing some other animal for its own survival.

i dont believe the sellers make great money.with all the mehngai around they deserve it after raising those animals for years.those animals are dear to them like their kids.did u know how hard it is to raise animals?

for me such religious traditions bring much pleasure.whoever is against it i wonder if they dont eat meat,chicken or fish.

maybe muslims should start learning more about islam cos sadly enough most muslims in pakistan happen to be muslims cos they were born in a muslim family. otherwise they know more about west........they have to in order to be COOL!

salaam and dua for everyone

proud muslim

I agree totally with the reply preceding mine. If a POOR ghareeb person can spend more than a few thousands at a party surely they can do much less for the qurbani. Also there is no compulsion for a qurbani if you cant afford it. If you cant afford the sky high prices man, take a hike!

You really dont HAVE to do qurbani!

it seems you want all of us to give up qurbani cause you cant afford it.

People give in to their ego a lot and BTW if ego/face saving is the purpose behind a person`s qurbani, you cant call it a qurbani-It just aint one!

Whatever you do depends on your `niyat`.

I also wonder what you think about the fast foods, restaurants, jerk meat!

Re: SR

`Riding camels and drinking milk`? I think you are losing a lot along the chronological times. I am assuming if you were born in that century you would have been cruising around in a Corolla and drinking `PEPSI-the next generation`

Extremely retarded logic!

Re: Wasiq

(“...Suppose...practice X is ... harmful...[and]...practice Y is... beneficial. ...should [there] be laws that ... forbid X and ... enforce Y? ...”)

As always, you’ve raised a most pertinent question. This question, however, is a rational question and in a rational society it can be discussed on the merits of priorities like ‘individual’s freedom to choose’ vs. ‘social engineering’. In the context of religion even raising such a question becomes a problem. This is the basis of the whole discussion here. If the blind followers could even stop for a minute and think about making such choices it would be one thing, but here we are stuck on step one: can we even raise such question without incurring the wrath of those who would like to turn the clock backwards.

My personal opinion to your question is that if a harmful practice is harmful only to the individual practicing it (and not to others who don’t make that choice), then s/he should have every right to go ahead and do it. Thus if a fool wishes to hang himself there should be no law against him being able to go and buy a rope to do with.

Likewise if a person can benefit from a practice but elects not to, then again there should be no law forcing him to do so. However, if others are also suffering by his refusal to remove a hardship then that is a different matter. Thus a lone driver who does not wish to have air-bags in his car nor wear a seat-belt must not be forced to take those safety measures.

In the context of religious rituals the debate is hijacked by a surge of emotional knee-jerk reactions even before an argument can be presented.

...SR

Re: SR and Saad
...medical basis...

That`s a very interesting point. Can I ask the following question?

Suppose ALL medical community agrees that a certain practice X is unquestionably harmful for people and another practice Y is unquestionably beneficial for people. Does it follow that there should be laws that absolutely forbid X and absolutely enforce Y?

Should people not have a choice at all times (with full access to pros and cons)? I think that is an aspect to be looked at when discussing what is allowed and disallowed in a faith.

Re: Saad
(... 102 not out ...)
Thanks, but I think it is really due to the incredible discussions of the people themselves ... :)

Re: Nanda
Thanks. I hope that does not take a long time! Thinking about it, it is technologically feasible for people to completely do away with animal protein (I think). After all we need certain amino acids, which can be extracted from plants or produced in genetically engineered animals. So really, do we need to kill animals now?

(I understand the economic issue, which is critical, but theoretically, if people were to focus on this problem, then a cheap solution can be found...)

Re: Sean
You can contact me at wasiq@photon.hep.upenn.edu.

My whole hearted agreement. This Eid is too red, meaty and plain glutonous. I wonder why we sacrifice animals to show belief in God. Can gluttony be ever legitimate

Re: SR

My response got lost somewhere. Will have to redo it later. Bummer!

AZ

Dear Saad:

Thanks for the very thoughtful response. You wrote: (“...I feel no compulsion to establish the relationship, if any, between Islam`s five pillars and human health. I accept Mohammed’s contention that there is an omnipotent Allah who has revealed His message through the Quran...”)

No one can argue with faith. If that is your only argument, I have no response except to bow to your contentions and completely respect your prerogative. However, you cannot bring reason and logic into faith, for if you do, it becomes a ‘slippery slope’ and there is no stopping mid-way. My argument is only with those who basically operate on a priori faith and yet attempt to rationalize it and pretend that there is scientific validity to their rituals and beliefs. In other words, if you try to live by logic, you must be prepared to die by logic.

Your points about Hajj being a risk which people prefer to take because of spiritual motivations is well taken. Only, I think, it is selfish and inhumane to expose minor children to hazardous activities because of adult whims. As adults we can decide which risks we prefer to take and which we do not. We are free, for example, to bungie-jump, skydive, hang glide or go to Hajj, but I think it is unethical to expose our children to the same. As for driving a car, we are all cursed by this pandemic of the 20th century: May Allah Almighty relieve us from this scourge of Detroit.

I also agree with your contention about alcohol use. To my knowledge, it is only the popular tabloid media that concluded that people should start drinking alcohol for its cardiovascular protective qualities. The little that I have seen of epidemiological studies on the subject, no one ever recommended beginning alcohol consumption as a means to coronary disease prevention. Surly, Saad, you were being facetious and asking a rhetorical question. (As an ancillary to this point let me add that the Quran also states that alcohol has a “few benefits, but many more ills” and thus strongly urges avoiding it.)

On the issue of circumcision, again, I will not argue your faith, but would like to question the science. Once again, I am at a disadvantage, not having full-text articles for the references you quote. Let’s leave the scientific issue open for the moment. I would like to get back to you with actual data.

I do wonder, if perhaps the devout in this forum will cut me some slack if I were to invoke one of the patent arguments that many of our brothers and sisters love to make on a wide range of subjects? Of course, I am talking about the ubiquitous `Jewish Conspiracy`. It just so happens that on this issue (circumcision) we have a convergence of interests with the world Jewry, so we fail to take note of THIS conspiracy. Has no one ever suggested that the Jewish medical researchers have `doctored` such studies as support this genital mutilation practice? :))

You wrote that circumcision (“...was good enough for the Prophet, so it`s good enough for me (and my future sons, if any)...”)

I am curious to know how far does this logic extend? Do you arbitrarily pick and chose (“what’s good for Pr M is good for me”) or do you follow it all the way through to the end? Obviously you don’t follow it all the way or you’d be ridding camels and drinking their milk, eating lots of dates, climbing nearby hills and hanging around caves, etc., etc., for after all, if it was good for HIM, its good for you too, or is it? :)


Re: Anita Zaidi
(“...a fairly simple study to assess the hazards, if any, of roza, would be to retrospectively compare the prevelance ... among fasters vs. non-fasters...”)

This comment has triggered a thought: The Framingham Study!!

The data is already there, it can be done inexpensively. All that needs to be done is to look and see if there was any significant number of Muslims in the population, and if some of them were also regular roza observers? The sample size would not have to meet minimum requirements. If it turns out that there were enough Muslims, bingo!

My initial thought was that only a Prospective Follow-up study design could conclusively address this issue, but looking at prevalence in a retrospective case-control study -- excellent idea -- will be cheaper and easily done, albeit with some limitations. A case-control study (perhaps a matched-pairs model) can be designed and would make a good Master’s project. Renal calculi may not be the end-point worth studying unless you do a Prospective Follow-up study. In a retrospective study I’d ONLY look at non-symptomatic sub-clinical (such as abnormal blood chemistry profiles) pathophysiological derangements, because otherwise we’ll run into selection bias and confounding factors. This is a problem with retrospective data-sets, unless great care is taken in designing the study. Since symptomatic sickness will remove people from observing ‘roza’, our sample will exclude those roza observers that become sick (they will no longer be roza observers) and thus create a selection bias in favor of unusually healthyroza observers because we will only be left with the healthiest sub-set of the population.

I’d love to see some studies done that silence the speculations. Do you think we could get the Saudis to fund it? :)

...SR

moderation in everything is the key, there is
a hadith of the Prophet, and also said by
Imam Ali: ``do not make your stumochs the
graveyard of animals``. -altaf
http://www.wco.com/

Re: Sohail Rabbani and Saad Shafqat/health hazards vs. benefits of roza

I feel obliged to interject that a fairly simple study to assess the hazards, if any, of roza, would be to retrospectively compare the prevelance of renal stones among fasters vs. non-fasters in a hot climate. I suspect that Dr. Rabbani will have proven his point,:) but hey, hypotheses have been wrong before!

Coming back to the eating lots of meat issue, here are a few downsides that come to mind.

Non-infectious:
Increased risk of cardiovasular disease
Increased risk of cancer
Increased risk of obesity

Infectious (these parasites live in animal tissues)
Toxoplasma
Trichinella
Beef tapeworm
Variant Creutzfeldt Jacob disease: human version of Mad Cow Disease, a uniformly fatal disorder with 100 cases reported in Britain. Nobody knows how many more will occur, and if the epidemic is still in its infancy, or is largely over. Nobody knows how it really started, but it is suspected that cows (about a million cows got affected) got it by being fed meals prepared from sheep offal that carried a prion disease called scrapie. Scientists suspect that eating organ meat, especially brain is more likely to transmit the agent, than eating muscle. This is based on the observation that another similar disease called Kuru that develops in the cannibalistic Fore natives of Papua New Guinea developed mainly in women and children - in Fore culture men would get first pass and preferred to eat the choice muscle cuts, while women and children ate the left-overs, including offal. The guy who first described this phenomenon, Dr. Carlton Gajdusck, a pediatrician trained where I work, won the Nobel Prize. Unfortunately, he is currently in jail for pedophilic activities with Fore children.

Anita

Re: Saad Shafqat

Health and ‘Roza’

(1) In your note you stated that there is ‘no evidence’ that roza is hazardous to ‘healthy’ people.

I concede that there is no recorded scientific evidence of harm done as a result of ‘roza’ to individuals who are otherwise strong and healthy.

(2) You seemed to imply that ‘roza’ is good for health (though you did not come outright and say it).

This contention is equally without evidence. The reference you quoted (N Eng J Med, 1997, 337:986) pertains to caloric intake reduction and its effects on aging.

(Since I do not subscribe to the New England Journal and my Medline account has not been active in some years, I did not have access to the full-text article in question so I have sent off for it and would like to explore the specifics after I have the required references in hand, which takes about five days.)

I fail to see automatically how you can equate caloric reduction (CR) to ‘roza’.

My thought is that there is probably no epidemiological data on ‘roza’ effects on people. You would need to do a prospective study for that which I doubt if anyone has done, so we’ll have to look at animal studies for the most part.

Animal studies which are more relevant would be those that measure the ‘physiological stress as an effect of short-term starvation’ and not those that study the effects of ‘caloric reduction on aging’.

Caloric reduction in rats (in the context of its aging effects) is a meaningful concept only when looked at over a longer period, such as months or years. ‘Roza’ does not fit the description of a sustained caloric reduction model. If ‘roza’ was a practice that was done, say, once a week all around the year then you may have argued that its aggregate effect is that of overall caloric intake reduction. Instead, what we have is a practice where for a period of one month dietary (and more importantly fluid intake) habits are radically altered in a manner that enhances physiological stress. The total caloric intake may even INCREASE when we look at ‘saher’ and ‘iftaar’ gluttony. On this idea I wonder if you still think that CR studies can be presented as evidence to argue the beneficial effects of ‘roza’. Nonetheless, we’ll look at the ‘Materials and Methods’ of the referenced studies before making comparisons to ‘roza’.

‘Roza’ is more akin to short-term starvation. In addition we also have to look at the effects of short-term dehydration. I am by no means more than a layman in this area, but it is an elementary fact that physiological stress causing activities DO NOT enhance longevity.

It may be one thing to say that “roza causes no harm to healthy people”, but it is a flight of fantasy to claim that it is beneficial to health. If it were really “good for health”, as many will chant in unison, then isn’t it logical to ask why the sick are exempt from it instead of being advised to observe ‘roza’ even more frequently?

The original point that I made was primarily against Hajj being a Public Health hazard. When you responded to say that my contention about roza was without evidence, I couldn’t help notice your silence over the Hajj issue. I take it then that you did not object to the notion of Hajj being an enhanced risk factor for morbidity and mortality. Just wondering? :)

Re: MNI

C`mmone man, be a generous. The foundations aren`t really rotted though there maybe considerable termite damage. Nothing a reinforcement job will not solve. As for the doors and windows, I`d rather junk them and get double glazed ones. Its the masonary and craftsmanship of the patterns on the granite and marble facade that should be saved. As far as copying the neighbors is concerned, that will not be feasible. They are far wealthier and have had good fortune of working on the building while the inflation was a lot lower... (This is getting silly) :)

...SR

Shehryaar Ahmed sahib:
Are you related to Khomeni? Jokes aside, I don`t want to cause grief to the Chowkwallahs. If they feel that my comments will cause them danger, they can delete. There`ll be no bitterness on my part. I wish I`d learn to be more tactful.

SR:
On your building metaphor...
If the old building has crumbling foundations, then we need to build a new one. No one`s saying we can`t still save money by re-using some old doors and windows in our new building. Afterall, everything isn`t crumbling. While we are at it, our next-door neighbors` house went down before ours. We might want to look at how they built their new house; copy what we like, and ignore what we don`t.

Rgds
MNI

i have`t read your whole article...but i was surprised to see the heading u gave. Sir this is not a tradition and the poor animals r not just being killed for tradition..this is out religion and we follow our prophets who did the scrifice of his child in the name of Allah. We slaughter all these animals to mark the obedience and faith of that prophet on Allah. You should start thinking like this from now on...there r many misunderstandings about our religion and u should not add another 1 in it

Re: Wasiq

I think the debate on the article and relevant matters is over and now binary and tertiary issues coming up. I agree with your question `Why does Islamic thought manifest itself completely and coherently in Muslims?` and I think if you write an article on this subject the debate could carry on thereafter. However, I appreciate your patience during the debate despite of my `harsh words` or `insolence at any level` (which I never intended to do deliberately). Hopefully I see you sometime on any other article. Cheers.

Re: General Audiences

I never intended yo disgrace or degrade someone`s faith but wanted to expose those who openly inflicted the basis of Islam. I respect all religions and faiths and so am I expect. Nevertheless, anyone of any faith hurt or I misunderstood someone then I offer my apology.

I like to clarify that I am not any kind of Islamic scholar nor associate with any religious party or jamaat. As I said several times I am science student (Ph.D program) and the expressions just of my personal.

Finally :)

Mr. SR gave an example of `his level`. Muslims are poor people and merely earn their livelihood for two times. They cant think of `great-grand parents` inheritance. Just only an `special clique` can afford the heyday. BTW why that person want to stick with the old edifice and how come he doesnt make money by selling out that and enjoy his life staying in different motels/hotels. ;)
Cheers All.

Re: SS

Saad: Thank you for your input. I just came on-line to post the reply to Rizvi sahib`s points and then I read your post. You are someone whom I would never presume to reply off-hand. Unfortunately, I`ll have to do so later, but there are a few remarks I have.

It was expected (and even hoped :)to tell the truth)that someone will pick up the `roza-is-good-for-health` argument. (Its an oft-repeated part of the dogma and the medically trained have come up with some great arguments which it would be an hounor to explore under your guidance.)

Both your factual points are correct but, I daresay, your conculsions are worth debating over as they may be ideologically inspired and not emperically derived. (In my message to Rizvi sahib I threw in circumcision for good measure in the hope of exploring that too -perhaps we can begin a new thread.) There are also other animal studies regarding fatty infiltration of the liver and much else that need to be looked at in addition to the caloric intake reduction studies. However, typing on-line on the InterAct with my hunt-and-peck typing style gets too tedious. Allow me to come back to you on this point in the next day or two.

...SR

Re: Rehan Rizvi

(“...That`s what I was concerned about. You talk about reform and people get carried away. First to go was Qurbani, then it was Hajj, then went the other two pillars...”)

Rizvi sahib, your prediction was logical but your concerns are mainly based on fear of change. Unfortunately, change is inevitable and the sooner we accept this fact and prepare ourselves for it, the better.

Four of the so-called five pillars, which I have denounced are mere ritualistic practices with little relevance or justification today.

Zakaat, is the only one of the five that has lasting social justification and I think its rate should be increased from one in 40 (2.5%), to maybe 1 in ten (10%). There is tremendous social benefit that can come to millions if this is done properly.

Stubbornly holding on to old rituals because of fear is hardly a recipe for improving a decaying society that is already obsessed with those rituals. As an example let’s think of someone who inherits a huge house from a great-grand parent and discovers all kind of weird old stuff in the attic and basement. There are three ways that person may deal with his inheritance:

(1) Demolish the old building (or sell it) and replace it with another one which is new.

(2) Keep the old facade preserving its traditional charm, but repaint and repair the dilapidated parts, get new plumbing, wiring and climate control installed, and refurbish the kitchen appliances.

(3) Faithfully keep everything exactly like it was without regard to the fact that the bathrooms don’t have running water, the roof leaks, the coal burning stove smokes up the rooms and the latrines stink, because great-granddaddy had built the BEST house which he declared was good for ever.

In my personal opinion the second option gets the person the best of both worlds. There are several qualities in the old mansion which are worth preserving and demolishing the whole house will destroy them. On the other hand, it is quite unnecessary to refuse running water and flush toilets.

This analogy may help explain my approach towards our cultural heritage. There are some things that we can keep and be that much the better off for them, and there are others that can either stay or go, depending on our preferences, while there are still others that must be abolished because the are counter productive today.

Utterances and mantras, while quite superfluous in my personal view, are none the less benign and may be retained by those who get a kick out of them.

However, there are some rituals, that can do actual harm in terms of Public Health and economic and intellectual retardation. Those I denounce. (In my opinion, these ‘hazardous’ rituals range from the trivial to the absurd: Circumcision, Roza and Hajj to name the primary examples.)

Momin sahib has presented and excellent set of rationalizations for ‘nimaz’, ‘roza’ and ‘hajj’ which I shall address later, along with some others....its beautiful day and I’m going out.

Respectfully...SR

rehan: religion is not a mechanical or
technical act, full of just laws. i don`t think
that the comparision (that is very prevlant) with
doctors is applicable to religion. Religion is
full of spiritual understandings, and that cannot
be accuarately quantified. We cannot just
leave it to the scholars to come up with rulings
and then follow blindly. Frankly i wouldnt advise
that with doctors either, but the point is that
religion is part of who the individual and community
is, and scholars play a role, but not one that is
absolute... altaf
http://www.wco.com/

lots of noise in this interaction, though lots of good points also. There is a call for rejunevation but also for cautious reform not revolution.

interesting article. don`t agree with everything people have said in responses, but here`s what happened to our neighbor this eid. they bought two bakras, for Rs.4000 and Rs.3000. then they got a qasai who asked Rs.700 to prepare the bakras. so they decided not to have any qurbani and sold their bakras for profit. also no one talked about the eid prayers. my cousin told me that this time also they had the namaz under armed bodyguards. it was very difficult to pray knowing that terrorists can come any time to kill the people during prayers. go figure.

Re: MAK

Dear MAK, no offense intended. Please read my blurb again, it is not a way to stigmatize a faith. I am asking a simple question which you should also be asking (perhaps you already do, I know many Islamic scholars have pondered this question). My question is:

Why does Islamic thought not manifest itself completely and coherently in Muslims?

Sure, people read the Quran, and feel the ``heat`` of Iman, but then why do the same people violate Islamic principles flagrantly? That is what I am asking.

Re: Rehan Rizvi

Your comments are very perceptive. How does one maintain the spirit and identity of a faith when dealing with an issue where a fundamental change (at the very least in the enactment of a ritualistic aspect of the faith) somewhere seems necessary?

It is a difficult issue to resolve, undoubtedly, and there are no quick answers to it. This requires thought. However, we have on the other hand identified some areas where the present way of fulfilling a particular ritual does not satisfy its intended purpose.

Re: Kafir

You have identified a very important issue. The issue of authority in such issues. Sure, we have the fundamental sources of Islamic thought, but getting from there to a resolution of practical issues requires life-long scholarship and intimate understanding of the sources. This process itself is hopelessly divided into different schools of thought, who have over time, stopped communicating and inter-relating to each other. In the absense of a singular intellectual pole in the ummah, whether an individual or a group of individuals, this problem is quite intractable. And yes, I can see why sects would branch off in an attempt to resolve this.

Re: momin

Thanks for your kind words. You have a very balanced way of dealing with such important issues, and thanks for sharing your views. I agree with you completely that Muslims were always meant to be completely open and honest about their faiths. They have been repeatedly asked to ponder and to use their minds, which is the faculty that sets them apart from other living beings. As Quran repeatedly says: The truth has been separated from falsehood, so why should we be afraid of using our divinely endowed faculties?

Re: Hajjis Killed In Stampede

This year it was not a fire but a mere stampede, killing many who were not strong.

Once again a wake up call comes from the cradle of Islam and starkly demonstrates how hazardous these ancient rituals have become in toady’s overcrowded world. Like the wasteful ritual of Qurbani, the mass madness witnessed during Hajj is not only primitive and futile, it is a downright Public Health disaster.

The potential threat of worldwide epidemics which can start at Hajj and devastate Muslims around the world must force us to think about controlling and curtailing this practice, otherwise sooner or later there will be even costlier fiascoes that may not remain confined to Mynah but spread to the Hajjis’ countries of residence.

With the exception of zakaat, the other four of the so-called five pillars are useless and unnecessary today and, in the case of Hajj and roza, even hazardous to human health and well being. We should simply de-emphasize these rituals so that only the most dedicated ritualists stay with them and the rest of the Ummah is free to go about their lives unencumbered and unadmonished.

...SR

RE: Wasiq`s ``Revitalizing Islamic Thought``

Excellent analysis. I would add that the death of Islamic thought over the centuries has been paralleled and accelerated by the death of Islamic institutions (which you hint at at the end of your article). This intellectual and socio-political demise has led to the ``psychological disjuncture`` of Muslims and fragmented the community into the Islamists, Secularists, and Indifferents which you have described.

You suggest a broad overhaul of Islamic thought as a means out of this quagmire. However, this would require a parallel overhaul and reformulation of Islamic institutions to propogate the new renaissance you hope for. That is a very difficult thing to do considering there is no supreme governing body in Islam as there is in Catholicism, Mormonism, Bahai, and other religions. Who would decide who gets to be on the committee to start changing the rules? Who gets to be labeled as ``Islamic Scholar`` ? The Islamists and Secularists would never agree on setting an agenda for discussion, let alone forging a new intellectual framework and philosophy.

Isn`t this how sects get started? Some perceptive and questioning individual sees injustice or irrational thinking in his/her community and decides to forge a new one based on his/her revolutionary ideas. Sectarianism has always been a part of religion and always will. The Sunni/Shia split happened first, followed by several others, and now maybe we`re in the midst of Islamist/Reformed split. And I`m sure these categories will keep splitting as time goes on. There will never be any broad renaissance of the entire Muslim world because there will never be any institutional unity.

Re: Islam is the fastest growing religion...

According the the Encyclopedia Britannica (or atleast the latest edition I`ve read), Islam is the fastest growing religion in the U.S., but Bahai is the fastest growing religion in the world. I`m not interested in following any organized religion myself, but if I were an alien who came to live on Earth and had to choose one religion (being free of all earthly cultural baggage), I would definitely choose Bahai over Islam. It wins hands down in terms of institutional integrity and universality.

Peace...

Re: Wasiq

I suggest you write in your reply `I`, `me` rather using `We`, `us` (unless you respresen a group of person of your thought). There is dying (or died) just inside you and nothing in Islam. Islam is intact since its birth 1400 years ago and flourishing day by day. To justify your shortcomings, malpractices and ignominious ruses you present just western quotes. I think you may want to look my posting of Feb 2, 1998 in the article `The Good, the bad and the Anxiety` written by a bad girl.

Nevertheless, I suggest you one thing just for an experiment. Any day after `Maghrib` or `Isha` (preferably) go to an isolated room and take Quran (Urdu Translation and NOT english one) and read first chapter, just urdu and after that if you feel any change then you still have heat of Islam and if you remained intact then wait to `combat` with Allah. Allah bless all muslims.

REVITALIZING ISLAMIC THOUGHT

We live in a century of discordant Islamic thought. The ideological and cultural threads that formed the warp and woof of the Islamic
Ummah are on the verge of being completely broken. Faith first receded from a collective level to
an individual level. Now it is on the retreat even on the individual level. What we are witnessing is more than mere decay of Islamic thought, we are witnessing its death. The cacophony of ideas that we hear from across the Muslim world are the last convulsions of an organism that has been diseased for a long time.

Let us ask ourselves the question, what exactly it is that is dying? What is dying is the Islamic thought itself, because it cannot manifest itself in us. Civilizations crystallize around ideals
that enable individuals to transcend themselves and identify themselves with a collective. Ideals empower individuals first, and then their societies to act as a coherent whole. The history of great civilizations is a history of individuals who have been unified by common ideals, purpose and action. When the foundations of ideals
are removed, all that is built on top is bound to
collapse. Societies are transformed into chaotic collections of people whose actions and purposes never resonate.

This is precisely what we see today amongst the Muslims, a deep-rooted psychological disjuncture. With their ideological and collective bonds
broken, they are following the same path that others have followed in history when their civilizations have collapsed. The response of
Muslims to this crisis is usually one of the following three.

First, there are the practicing Muslims, who follow Islam down to each and every ritual, but Islamic thought does not bind them into coherent
beings. Instead, their ideals and actions are contradictory. Their ideology never endows them with a moral conviction that encapsulates
each and every moment of their lives. They fill their moral vacuum by stressing on secondaries while forgetting the primaries. One will
therefore run into phenomena like the Taliban or Sipah-e-Sahaba, who will pursue outright barbarity to achieve their ends, in complete contradiction to what they profess in. If someone questions the
traditional interpretations of Islam, or criticizes some aspect of the faith, their reaction is usually extreme. This I believe is a
defensive reflex that stems from an insecurity about the potency of the faith.

Second, there are those who have completely given up in despair, and have silently or openly embraced alternative methods to forge an individual identity. They are usually secular, but stick to secularist ideals with as much blind faith and acceptance that they accuse the
practicing Muslims of. Bereft of their own heritage, and permanently disconnected from their newly adopted alien heritage, they are trapped
in a vicious cycle of first emulating others and then searching for their own roots. This by itself is not surprising, it is to be expected on the outset of any social transition. One would expect that within a proper secular social matrix, over long term, their identities would find a stable point.

Finally, there are those who are completely indifferent. Paralyzed by uncertainty and fear, they hedge their bets and do not decide one way
or another between acceptance or rejection of Islam. The most likely fate of this category is a life of indifference, that slowly rolls
over into a life of ambiguous acceptance as they grow old. For them, old age requires security of a faith, whose foundations have not been
sunk over the years.

What is common to all of three categories is that there is no unifying thread in life. A lack of coherence shows itself in each and every
sphere of their lives i.e. a person would pray five times a day and perform Hajj multiple times, yet accept bribery and forgery to be perfectly acceptable ways of sustaining his livelihood. Similarly, one meets liberal Muslims who will drink alcohol in abundance, yet abstain
completely from eating pork. This glaring contradiction in the life of a Muslim, is indicative of the advanced stage of decay in which we find the body of Islamic thought. On this critical juncture, therefore, we need to ask ourselves what are the reasons for this crisis and what ways are there to correct it?

What are the reasons for the crisis?

What really informs us of the crisis in Islamic thought is the fact that the Islamic world lags behind the West politically, economically
and ideologically. We have seen the West bloom in the past few hundred years, rising from virtual anonymity on the world stage to become the foremost power in the globe. Western colonialism in its heyday controlled most of the land mass of the planet. The Industrial and the Scientific
Revolution occurred in the West, and has endowed it with a definite technical, economic and political superiority over the rest of the
world. In contrast, the Muslims world is mostly poor with backward economies. The richest countries in the Muslim World are controlled by
claustrophobic monarchies or dictatorships. The average Muslim is uneducated and unskilled by modern standards. All this poverty, backwardness and incapacitance are the icons of Islam in the modern world.

Upon a cursory comparison of the icons of traditional Islam and the modern West, one can reach the conclusion that the reason for the
backwardness of Islamic World is Islamic thought itself. I think that is the primary reason why Islam does not manifest itself in the lives
of modern Muslims. Due to the failure of Islamic societies across the globe, Muslims are attracted towards the ideologies that are successful. The traditional minded tend to revert back to pristine
Islam. Others simply abandon it altogether.

However, this conclusion by itself is again
simplistic. Let us for a minute assume that Islamic scholars could agree on a core set of beliefs that would constitute Islamic thought. That would not necessarily imply that Islamic ideals would be implemented faithfully. For example, die-hard Marxists would not agree
with the Leninist interpretations of Communism. Ideals are open to interpretations, and many factors (personal, cultural, political etc.)
determine how people interpret the same thing.

All of this is further complicated by the fact that over the centuries, the number of different interpretations of Islamic ideals has grown. Islamic scholars find themselves debating over arcane issues which have lead to the separation of different sects and movements in Islam. In addition, over the centuries, one sees a
decline in the quality of scholarship of Islam. Whereas in the past, the best and the brightest students were attracted to Islamic scholarship, today, the worst of the lot end up in this crucial
position. Islamic scholarship is not considered an attractive career for a Muslim today. This drastic change of perception stems not only from a declining confidence in Islam as a guiding philosophy of life, but also from the decay and destruction of the traditional Islamic
centers of learning.

All of the above mentioned factors are fundamental to the decay of Islamic thought today. A young Muslim today sees a prevalent Islam which is clearly ineffectual in establishing a position for itself in the modern world. As a reaction if one decides to revert to the ``original`` Islam, one is confronted by a massive amount of ambiguous
and not entirely consistent set of traditional interpretations of Islam. To de-convolute the effects of fourteen centuries is virtually
impossible. In addition, one comes across many traditional interpretations of Islam that are not in accordance with what we see around us. Before I mention a few problems with the traditional
Islamic interpretations, let me define what criteria must be used to question Islamic thought..... (more later hopefully!)

One of my questions: What do you think is the reason for this crisis??

Things should be taken in the proper context. The break of the Vazoo concept was implemented as a polite way of asking the namazi to move out of the congregation, in consideration of others.

The Vazoo does not have anything to do with becoming clean after gas.

Those were not the times when they had Mylox for upset stomach.

Finally, he who forsakes Islam, unfortunately does not understand (and has not taken the trouble of understanding) Islam. So let us not be ignorant, and because of some misguided people forsake the religion. All religions, without exception, have got persons practising it, that is contradictory to its tenets. This does not mean, a person should try to maintain his track on the right path.

Re: Debate

I very much enjoyed during the debate and `discovered` some new people with their modern ideology about Islam. It seems to me all the participants in the debate claim muslims but surprisingly deny to accept the `roots` of their faith stating platitudes. Since they dont believe on Islamic `anectodes` I hope they no longer believe on the last Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and his teachings, Sunnah. Then I perplex how come these people like to be called as muslims and why dont they find their own identity or label (like Qadiani, Bahai etc.). Muslims are considered very narrow minded, uncouthy, chauvinistic, pugnacious etc. so these people I think dont fulfil the definition of muslim. They are well cultured, highly qualified, reverent and staid they must be new specie other than muslim. If still they insist they are muslims then I like to ask some questions with myself.

What kind of muslims they are who take pride to quote non-muslims writers, scholars and `liberals` so-called `muslims` and never remember to write single line of the last Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) [because `his quotes are too old and not compatible with this 21st century`]. What kind of muslims they are who argue/interfere on artific of Allah using their decimal rationality even they dont know what longitude/latitude Eureka is. What kind of muslims they are jape on their islamic duties and deride it demanding to alter with their preposterous notions. What kind of muslims they are who verge to non-muslims cringe them to get a foot space among them and for this share pea of Satan (wine, vodka, champagne etc.).

Conspicuously they pretend muslims but if their hearts are opened would be found balck with stench wihthout any spot of white Islamic beam.

Finally only one comment on the lady her name is very nice but she said vice versa. I suggest her to start strolling on rope with some acrobators and they would help you in crossing the Saraat ;)

Re: MaTha

You have raised a very important point: Should faith and reason be compatible. I think they should be absolutely! My simplistic reason for that would be this: All people, to various degrees, possess the ability to reason and to compare what they believe in with what they observe around them. Consider an extreme example: If a simple belief stated that the earth is made of an edible pastry, people will only believe in it for so long, before they will decide that it does not make any sense. I would think that people`s beliefs and faiths change over time for that reason. During the Medieval times, Galileo had to face persecution because he went againt the geocentric dogma of the Church, but eventually Vatican had to apologize for its treatment of him (though much much later).

At a special ceremony in the Vatican on 9 May 1983, the Pope declared: ``The Church`s experience, during the Galileo affair and after it, has led to a more mature attitude ... The Church herself learns by experience and reflection and she now understands better the meaning that must be given to freedom of research... one of the noblest attributes of man... It is through research that man attains to Truth... This is why the Church is convinced that there can be no real contradiction between science and faith ... (However) it is only through humble and assiduous study that (the Church) learns to dissociate the essential of the faith from the scientific systems of a given age, specially when a culturally influenced reading of the Bible seemed to be linked to an obligatory cosmogony.``


Re: SR

Thanks for your kind words. Your comments are, as usual, incisive and illuminating. Yes, it seems that the voo-zu is being broken far too frequently, and gallons of water are flowing. Won`t it help to change the diet? :)

I thought that the story was brilliant --perhaps just goes to show that the whole edifice is actually upside down! Would have been much better if the two characters had been inter-changed!

Re: Momin

Thank you for your comments. You`re absolutely right, essentials over non-essentials. There are a lot more important things that usually get lost in the mindless repetition of rituals. A blind following of rituals at the expense of the underlying spiritual mooring, is probably an indicator of the fact that the faith does not manifest itself in us. Therefore we have to clutch at mere rituals in order to feel connected. It has to be the other way around ...

Re: Emaan

Hear, hear. Well said.

Re: Asem A

Well, I think, that is immaterial to the issue at hand :)

Re: Amin Saleh

You have mentioned a very valuable point, namely in the past, people`s wealth was measured in terms of their possessions in an agricultural society. The amount of wealth of a person was quantified in terms of the animals etc. that he/she possessed. We do not count our wealth in terms of animals anymore, at least not in modern urban societies. The symbolism of the sacrifice itself, i.e Prophet Abraham sacrificing his most dear possession, and conversely the unquestioning acceptance of Prophet Ismail to the faith, is an extremely powerful example of a sacrifice of one`s wealth (and life). If we consider that, then a broader interpretation of Qurbani, which is not limited to the slaughter of animals brings it easier to get back to the intended spirit of this ritual.

Re: M. Aliani

Your remarks are very perceptive. Maybe at one point we will be able to evolve to a point where life by itself is valued, and not the particular form that it is in. How long do you think that will take?

Re: Saad Shafqat

I do not think that Qurbani will be discontinued, there is an immense cultural and traditional inertia that will keep it going forward. However, do you think that we Muslims should re-consider how we view Qurbani? If we do then there might be some big changes in the way the tradition is being followed. I think all of those changes will be for the better.

Re: Ibne SIna

I think that you have raised some important points, which at the very least should be pondered by all Muslims. What do we see is the future of Islam? I find your comment ``clock is ticking...`` to be very pertinent, and the question is how will the coming generations view the coming decades?

Re: Umer

The only statistic that I have been able to find out is that 2 million animals will be sacrificed this year, and only 500,000 will be frozen and distributed. Would it be possible to find out what happens to the rest?

Re: Wasiq

First of all, the slogan ``halaNkeh iss say farq to
paRta naheeN`` is not a slogan, or was not meant to be. It`s more of an adage, and whether it`s popular with phenomenologists and epistemologists,
I don`t know, but I`ll take your word for it!

It seems to me that I am mistaken about both
your intended reason for writing this article
and your intended audience.

What I disagree with, and disagree whole-heartedly, is your implication that faith and reason are compatible, that people ought
to recalibrate their faith with the passage of time
with appeals to common sense. The legitimacy of
the unification of faith and reason cannot be
resolved by the norms of argumentation (in the QED sense), and the same applies to the existence of God. If you did imply that such a compatibility exists then we shouldn`t
argue about it, as we will be talking past each other, which is a lot of fun but not consequential
(and therefore, the adage would fit in again). If you didn`t,
then I`ve misunderstood you and you must educate me.

It makes no sense to me to accept a certain ideology and then twist and turn it to suit
one`s mindset, just to be able to call it your own. If your Creator knows what`s best for you then how come your common sense over-rules the
Creator`s infinite wisdom? I could quote the Book again but then it`s a really old text and in the
wrong language too! English seems to be the
language of choice for the future.

Vote YES on gurday-kapooray!

Re: Rehan Rizvi

Since gambling (astaGhfirullah!) is the activity of choice, let me add to your statistical distribution (maybe no more than 1%) the possibility that everything goes as dictated,
except that on roz-e-mehShar Allah has noorani PMS
(destined to produce mood swings) and decides
(of course, He already knew that, as He knows
everything) to NOT be just (He is all-powerful, it would be very inconvenient to be stuck being just all the time)! A lot of wagers would pay-off well then! This is, obviously, a very unlikely possibility. I just wanted to promote educated
waging!

Islam as I see it is a religion of the times. And as such we have to intepret religion with the times.

I remember my mother telling me of a story of a person that was about to go for Hajj. The night before he was about to leave, he got a dream that despite him being a Hajji (after having performed Hajj), he was refused enterance to Heaven. When he enquired about the reason, he was told that his neighbour was going hungry for the last 7 days and that instead of helping him, this person was about to spend his wealth on Hajj. This was a major shock to this person and the next morning he went over to his neighbour to ensure that his needs were being met.

When I mentioned that interpret religion with time, I would like to go back 1400 years to see what the persons in those periods considered most valuable. They did not have cars or buy houses all over the world, etc. They basically valued their wealth in terms of their agricultual possessions. And what better means of professing their love for religion then sacrificing something that they love the most (remember the story of Ibrahim, where he starts off by sacrificing all his wealth culminating with his dearest of possession his son) - their animals. The sacrifices are body, mind, and wealth (both money and children). Now when I say sacrifice children, I do not mean, put them to the sword, but enable the children to work for the good. How many of our children may have gone in the six months (after matric and intermediate) of vacation to the rural places in Pakistan to teach (academic education and health education).

The other point, I would like to make, is that in times of Holy Prophet, they did not have standing armies. They had to depend on regular citizens to defend the cities. And mind you those persons where no different from us, becoming nauseous at the sight of blood. How would they be able to fight if they could not stand the sight of blood. Institute a process by which they are able to undertake action in the name of religion. This does not mean that religion is cruel but it is practical. Remember, Islam does not, like Christianity, preach turning the cheek. It talks about protecting rights of communities.

All in all I do not have any disagreements with the author on the various means a sacrifice may take.

Wasiq:

You have done a great job. The debate this piece has generated is broader based (in diversity of participants and view points). Congratulations. I just wanted to put in a word of support at your honest and sensible stance and am thrilled to see that some more open-minded free thinks are coming out with their views. Aldoux Huxley once said something to the effect that: in primitive societies one must not phuck with the native’s religion or they will cook you in boiling oil.

The Internet may yet be the saving grace of the Muslim world where free discussion of ideas is possible without the immediate threat of physical violence. And perhaps the new generation will bring about Reformation and be free of this universal sickness of the mind that befalls the “ummah”. Here in cyberspace the primitive minded, unthinking dinosaurs can only express impotent rage and call you names when you step on their putrefied, gangrenous tails. Hang in there brother and keep it up, you do have friends and well-wishers.

How can we expect to get anywhere when ritual has become the central focus of religion. Someone here gave an excellent analogy of a terminally ill cancer patient who is on his last stretch. The primitive minded traditionalists have made Islam exactly that. (Run around the black rock in seven circles, hit the forehead to the ground 5 times a day, speak certain mantras over and over, etc. etc.) These people consider the ‘voo-zu’ broken if one passes gas. They want to do the voo-zu again before prayer. I find it curious that they want to wash hands, feet, elbows, rinse the mouth and clean behind the ears, and all that while that is not where the gas came out of. They don’t consider it necessary to wash (or even wipe) the part of their anatomy which served as the exhaust outlet. Now that is real bright, isn’t it?

BTW, one quick anecdote about the “bridge of Saraat”. One of your detractors brought it up as if that was a silencing argument. (We’ll not get into the invalidity of that nonsensical concept for now.)

A ‘maraasi’ (minstrel) was once forced to attend a jumma nimaz where a maulana was telling his prayer gathering about the bridge Saraat.

The maulana described the ‘deep pit of fire’ that the bridge spans and that the faithful will ride sacrificed animals to cross over to Paradise. The maulana went on to say that the bridge Saraat was sharper than the blade of a sword and narrower than the width of a hair.

The maraasi said: “pull Saraat tay du foot choraH vi bun sakda see, ey tay naH langHan da bahana vay” (The bridge Saraat could have easily been constructed two feet broad, these are mere excuses to not let us through).

[:-)))

...SR

Re: Rehan

Thanks for your comments.
You`re basically asking me to take Pascal`s Wager: that I should bet on the existence of God because doing so would ensure me success in the afterlife if indeed He does exist. No offense, but that seems like a rather selfish and petty reason to have faith and devote onself to serving God.

Personally, I don`t care whether or not I continue on after this physical life or not or whether I get sent to a heaven or hell. Respecting myself and doing good for others are virtues in themselves that don`t need to be adulterated by promises of future rewards. Didn`t the ancient mystic Rabia al-Adawiyyah say that she would set fire to the heavens and extinguish the flames of hell and only worship for the love of God? Wouldn`t it be noble for a man to live a selfless life knowing that his love for God, his fellow humans, and for his earth was his one and true reward?

As for eternity, it is now, not in the future, not in the past. It is not a function of time but a state of being. Experiences of eternity happen in this very life, those moments of great joy or great anguish when you feel yourself acutely connected or disconnected to the rest of creation.

Re: Wasiq

(``..Should people not be volunteering their time and resources to help other muslims in trouble around the world?..``)

Your point is valid and I agree with it a tangent of your article though.

(``..It is easier to buy animals and to sacrifice it than it is to volunteer one`s time fulfilling a social obligation..``)

I think this has been the main reason of losing the spirit of Qurbani. People feel ease buying animals mostly on `Chaan Raat` to show of `Tagra Bakra` specially to neighbours and here we find more ritual less religious duty. Allah wants to see our devotion and sincerity to our faith. There is an artifice in each act of Allah and we cant understand with our limited rationality. Materialism is so elusive that to get it we forget our social obligations. But religious duties shouldnt be appended with the social responsibilities. Allah set all the priorities (religious, social etc.) and one should follow accordingly.

(``..Sacrifice could on, but instead of every person performing it individual, entire communities did it together to fulfil the tradition..``)

This is very interesting point and let me clarify this is not a tradition but religious duty. If performing Qurbani collectively would be better for an entire community then how many people would ride on an animal (say Cow, Camel or Bakra) on the day of Qiamat to cross `Bridge of Saraat`. If Imam-e-Kaaba performs this duty on behalf of all muslims then where you think you would find a place on the animal to cross the Saraat. I think you ignored this aspect. This is why Islam suggested share of at most seven people in Cow/Camel to avoid strife.

I dont know how `open-minded` you are but I can see a glimpse thru your article. Despite entering in my first year of Ph.D. I couldnt `open` my brain to accept these things.

Dear friends, Eid Mubarak!!

Re: MaTha

The slogan ``halakay iss say farq to parta nahi`` is probably very interesting to some phenomenologists and epistemologists who are trying to inter-link our experiences and our expression of them. I do not doubt that there is a link of some sort between that ``deep`` and ``involved`` level of comprehension (or at least an attempt to do so) and the more mundane level most people experience but I think that it does make a difference. Perhaps on a cosmological time scale, it does not matter what people (or the entire human race for that matter) do, experience or even care about, but during the lifetimes of humans and their societies, all of this matters. Social norms matter because they impact the lives of each and every member of the society. They impact not only the way we live, act or think, but also how we idealize each and every day of our lives.

Whether one wishes to trace out the entire history of certain traditions (and deconvolute the effects of different causes) or merely takes what is available at hand and tries to correct it according to the information available, is however entirely a personal choice.

Re: MAK

I want to make a remark on the issue of ``modifying`` certain articles of faith because they no longer fulfill their spirit to the letter. I think that is an academic question, we do it all the time, except somehow it becomes blasphemous if someone verbalizes it. For instance, consider the Islamic obligations that Muslims around the world conveniently choose to ignore. e.g. Should people not be volunteering their time and resources to help other muslims in trouble around the world? That is not done, because it is physically, mentally and materially demanding. However, people will get annoyed with a suggestion that something be re-considered because it usually translates into a sacrifice on part of the people. It is easier to buy animals and to sacrifice it than it is to volunteer one`s time fulfilling a social obligation.

And there are definite ways in which this waste can be avoided without losing the symbolism of the ritual also. For example, what if one were to say that yes, sacrifice could go on, but instead of every person performing it individually, entire communities did it together to fulfill the tradition. Like only one animal could be sacrificed by the Imam of a masjid to represent all the people who attend that masjid. Or maybe the Imam of Kaaba could sacrifice one animal for the entire Muslim community?

Re: Rehan Rizvi

I agree with your realism. However, may I humbly (and optimistically) suggest that societies are after all only collections of individuals, and over time a slow change in the attitudes of individuals inevitably leads to a change in the attitudes of a society. Some things have to percolate through the system.

ALL MUSLIM BROTHERS AND SISTERS (if any ;) EID MUBARAK

Re: Wasiq

(``..I think it is not very productive to start referring to the West everytime we start discussing some traditions in Muslim World..``)

I would say one should have a frame of reference while comparing values, cultures, traditions, religion etc and since left my frame (i.e. Paksitan) I become very concious of my values, culture and religion. Now I can analyze and compare my religion with different ones and get composure in all aspects what I have in Islam.

(``..At the very least you will agree that sacrifice is more ritual than an institution of charity it is supposed to be..``)

Yes at the very least I agree that Qurbani is more ritual, but.. but losing spirit of any islamic duty does not grant you a right to alter that and discover new avenues to meet with modern epoch. If we suppose to do that then why Allah descended Quran and why these books of Hadith among us and what is Sunnah then? What you saying is ``Alter Islamic duties if they lose their real spirits and adopt new ways with present situation of the World ``. In another words you saying Quran now is over 1400 years `old` and it was only for thousand years ago when there were real muslims and spirits at full peaks. Isn`t that your hidden thought?

(``..I would ask you, how would you change the present situation of Qurbani? How can you benefit the millions of needy Muslims across the world with the incredible spirit of faith during the time of Hajj..?``)

Thats I described in the last para in my last posting as what would be your next thought. The idea you presented `really missed` by Allah otherwise He would`ve included in Quran that if muslims are found needy, helpless and deprived then forget Qurbani and send them money and in the meantime to fulfil the spirit of Qurbani just go altar touch animals with spirit of Qurbani and let them go this way save your time, money and get reward having compassion on animals.

`Karo Meherbani Tum Aihlay Zameen per
Khuda MeherbaN Hoga Arsh-e Bareen per`

Did this verse fascinate or motivate you to come up with this idea?

Wasiq:

Reading your article brought back painful memories for me of having to sacrifice animals on this bloody holiday when I was a child. Fortunately, I gave up on Islam several years ago once I realized that I couldn`t blindly follow archaic traditions like this. I, too, went through several years of trying to convince my mind that saying namaaz in a language I didn`t understand of killing poor defenseless animals in a grisly, twisted historic recreation somehow all made sense on some grand cosmic level I didn`t understand. But my heart never agreed, and in the end I had to follow it.

Although I admire your efforts to bring about change (ar atleast invite others to think about change), I feel sorry for you at the same time because I know you will fail. Very few will agree with you, and even fewer will act upon it. Islam is an old cancer-stricken man lying gasping on his death-bed. He had his prime a long time ago, but it`s now time ot let him rest in peace and remember him in the glory of his youth. Don`t prolong his agony by your futile atttempts at resuscitation. There are new children being born that need your attention and energy.

As for me, I feel liberated for once in my life having abandoned the chains of an intellectually and spiritiually suffocating religion. I can now make decisions about how to live my life based on my conscience and my heart, not on out-dated rules. I`ve given up eating meat for both health and environmental reasons, and feel much more vital for it. I regularly donate my time and money to charitable causes where I`m su