Please spare the poor animals this Eid!

thanx for raising these questions, while
qurbani may be part of religion (i`m not sure
to what extent it is -and would appreciate hadith,
and/or Quranic sources) it needs to be done
in a correct manner. If it is not able to be
done in a correct manner (i.e. there is wastage,
animal is not slaughtered properly) then do we
still continue doing this? Or stop until a
distribution of the meat mehcanism is found.
The article raises good questions about these issues.
Altaf http://www.wco.com/

The dead animals wasted in Saudi Arabia is a point well-taken. The rest of the article is (well-meaning) liberal humbug.

One could then argue that instead of de-energizing ourselves by fasting, we should drain ourselves of energy some other way - work on farms or something during Razmazan? And why ``waste`` time and money performing Hajj? Go spent that time and money improving the fabled ummah.

Let us elect a committee of liberal intellectuals to ``optimize`` the theory and practice of Islam as they will.

All of this from Sahih Bukhari book 68. Sahih being one of the two well known books on Sunnah of the Prophet PBU, after reading this and researching a little bit more on your own part, I hope you understand the requirement/need to perform the sacrifice.

Volume 7, Book 68, Number 453:

Narrated Al-Bara:

The Prophet said (on the day of Idal-Adha), ``The first thing we will do on this day of ours, is to offer the (`Id) prayer and then return to slaughter the sacrifice. Whoever does so, he acted according to our Sunna (tradition), and whoever slaughtered (the sacrifice) before the prayer, what he offered was just meat he presented to his family, and that will not be considered as Nusak (sacrifice).`` (On hearing that) Abu Burda bin Niyar got up, for he had slaughtered the sacrifice before the prayer, and said, ``I have got a six month old ram.`` The Prophet said, `Slaughter it (as a sacrifice) but it will not be sufficient for any-one else (as a sacrifice after you). Al-Bara` added: The Prophet said, ``Whoever slaughtered (the sacrifice) after the prayer, he slaughtered it at the right time and followed the tradition of the Muslims.``


Volume 7, Book 68, Number 459:

Narrated Nafi`:

`Abdullah (bin `Umar) used to slaughter his sacrifice at the slaughtering place (i.e the slaughtering place of the Prophet ) . Ibn `Umar said, ``Allah`s Apostle used to slaughter (camels and sheep, etc.,) as sacrifices at the Musalla.``

Volume 7, Book 68, Number 472:

Narrated Anas:

The Prophet offered as sacrifices, two horned rams, black and white in color. He slaughtered them with his own hands and mentioned Allah`s Name
over them and said Takbir and put his foot on their sides.

As far as your comment about all the meat that will be wasted, here is something I read on CNN Interactive:
`` As many as 2 million sheep, lambs and camels are expected to be slaughtered in Mena on Tuesday, in the Eid al-Adha feast of sacrifice. The ritual marks the end of hajj. The slaughter commemorates the sacrifice of Abraham, who was ready to kill
his son Ismail in a supreme act of faith, but was instead allowed to sacrifice a sheep to God. The authorities are again expected to collect about 500,000 carcasses for refrigeration. The meat is distributed to needy Muslims around the world.``

I am not sure what happens to the other 1.5 million, but definitely, not all of it goes to waste.

Hope this helps.

I like that!! Scare the poor animals and then let them go, and make a personal sacrifice of time, energy or money for a good cause without such waste, stench and brutality. Good one, Wasiq.

Dear friends,

My intention is not to injure religious sensibilities, or attempt to demean Islam.
I agree whole-heartedly that Qurbani is a part of the faith itself and I consider myself to be a Muslim. However, does that mean that everything that goes on in the name of Qurbani is according to the spirit of Islam?

There is a Hadith of the Prophet: ``Do not make your stomachs grave-yards of animals``. His own diet was not a diet full of meat and fat that people crave so much today. He ate very simply. Frankly, I think that many who actively profess Islam today would not even be able to survive in the kind of conditions he lived in. He taught us the importance of balance in this delicate and ancient process of life and death. This wisdom pre-dates the Hollywood hoopla that people accuse me of, and is infinitely more intricate.

Qurbani was supposed to fulfill certain social functions, like ensuring the distribution of meat to the needy who do not get a chance to eat meat. I have not seen that to be the case. Instead I have seen Qurbani being performed for all other reasons except that primary reason. Devoid of its spiritual basis, Qurbani in my view is nothing more than a slaughter.

I agree that what transpires on animals is the same, whether they are under a blade in Pakistan or in a modern slaughter-house in the West. People eat meat because of their dietary requirements and traditions, therefore, yes, animals will be killed. But why add a festival of killing animals to that when that festival does not serve its intended purpose?

And then I will ask again, why so much emphasis on sacrifice of animals? Why do people have to go overboard on that (700,000 sheep and 20,000 camels on Hajj this year)? How does sending tons of frozen meat to an underdeveloped Muslim country solve its long-term problems? Is it not better that instead of sending all that meat to Afghanistan, for example, people would invest all that money in the re-building process? Islam is not a religion that teaches blind following of traditions. At every point in our lives, we are asked to ponder about things, so that the faith stays dynamic and alive.

Well-said Wasiq. No sacrifices - period.

Anita

I like that!! Scare the poor animals and then let them go, and make a personal sacrifice of time, energy or money for a good cause without such waste, stench and brutality. Good one, Wasiq.

Correction. No animal or human sacrifices. If nothing else, it is a huge disease hazard - the animals are not checked properly, and the decaying carcasses are magnets for infectious disease. Wasiq raises an excellent point that there is too much emphasis on meat consumption in our societies as a sign of a healthy diet. It is definitely not. I speak only from the medical, not a religious angle - but a diet rich in vegetables and grains is what we should be focused on. The spirit of Qurbani can live on, in many other ways.

Anita

Re Rehan, et. al

I have read fewer responses to the ISSUES Wasiq has raised and more labels attacking him. Why can`t arguments be about the issues? Why can`t you let Allah decide whether or not Wasiq or others like us are in the wrong and let HIM judge us and punish (or reward) us. Please, please, please if you disagree, just tell us why. Dont call people names. It really doesnt strengthen your arguments.

Re: Mr. Bokhari

I read this piece of writing and found unpleasant. I dont know what made you writing such a ludicrous article. Although you mentioned in your response you had no intention to inflict islamic faith as you consider yourself a muslim and at least know what Qurbani is about, I dont think you wrote this with a feeling of humanity. Let`s say this has been the case then why didnt you try to get published this article in New York Times or Washington Post disseminating that humanatarian idea where millions of animals cut every day in North America, but I think you never thought of that. Why? becasue they are very hygenic-concious and keep their slaughter houses clean and at remote distances Right? So this means you took your precious time to write just to inform muslims that how careless they are of their health and diet (as they eat meat upto neck after Qurbani suppressing the philosphy of that) and then the stench which affects directly their brains keeping them behind rest of the world. How patriotic thought!! Bravo. I didnt know anyone could be so thoughtful and serious of muslims health that advises them even to refrain performing their islamic duties.

You are not only one in the boat who use these tactics to inflict on islamic duties and to astray muslims with vulnerable dogma. If you claim you are muslim then you must know that Ibrahim (AH) had try to sacrifice his son Ismail (AH) but Allah who wanted to examine him replaced Ismail with a lamb and the lamb was sacrificed and to perform this Sunnah Ibrahim muslims all over the world sacrifice animals each year. You `simple logic` just to touch animals and let them away is so prodigeous and irrationale that one can mourn on such a muslim. Perhaps next time you would like to `suggest` muslims to save money, time and difficulties just build a small bricks house paint with black color and make seven circles around that and for `Saee` just run over `Mountains in Orangi Town` or `Margalla hills`.

Following is a section of Sura Hajj which I found
to be relevant to the debate (translations and
commentary are by A. Yusuf Ali). I`ve included the whole thing for context at the risk of being
superfluous:

26 Behold! We gave the site to Abraham of the (Sacred) House (saying): ``Associate not any thing (in worship) with Me; and sanctify My House for those who compass it round or stand up or bow or prostrate themselves (therein in prayer). 2797 2798
27 ``And proclaim the Pilgrimage among men: they will come to thee on foot and (mounted) on every kind of camel lean on account of journeys through deep and distant mountain highways; 2799
28 ``That they may witness the benefits (provided) for them and celebrate the name of Allah through the Days appointed over the cattle which He has provided for them (for sacrifice): then eat ye thereof and feed the distressed ones in want. 2800 2801 2802
29 ``Then let them complete the rites prescribed for them perform their vows and (again) circumambulate the Ancient House.`` 2803 2804
30 Such (is the Pilgrimage): whoever honors the sacred rites of Allah for him it is good in the sight of his Lord. Lawful to you (for food in pilgrimage) are cattle except those mentioned to you (as exceptions): but shun the abomination of idols and shun the word that is false 2805
31 Being true in faith to Allah and never assigning partners to Him: if anyone assigns partners to Allah he is as if he had fallen from heaven and been snatched up by birds or the wind had swooped (like a bird on its prey) and thrown him into a far-distant place. 2806
32 Such (is his state): and whoever holds in honor the Symbols of Allah (in the sacrifice of animals) such (honor) should come truly from piety of heart. 2807
33 In them ye have benefits for a term appointed: in the end their place of sacrifice is near the Ancient House. 2808 2809
34 To every people did We appoint rites (of sacrifice) that they might celebrate the name of Allah over the sustenance He gave them from animals (fit for food) but your Allah is one Allah: submit then your wills to Him (in Islam) and give thou the Good News to those who humble themselves 2810 2811
35 To those whose hearts when Allah is mentioned are filled with fear who show patient perseverance over their afflictions keep up regular prayer and spend (in charity) out of what we have bestowed upon them. 2812
36 The sacrificial camels we have made for you as among the Symbols from Allah: in them is (much) good for you: then pronounce the name of Allah over them as they line up (for sacrifice): when they are down on their sides (after slaughter) eat ye thereof and feed such as (beg not but) live in contentment and such as beg with due humility: thus have we made animals subject to you that ye may be grateful. 2813 2814
37 It is not their meat nor their blood that reaches Allah: it is your piety that reaches Him: He has thus made them subject to you that ye may glorify Allah for His guidance to you: and proclaim the Good News to all who do right. 2815
38 Verily Allah will defend (from ill) those who believe: verily Allah loveth not any that is a traitor to faith or shows ingratitude.

2797 The site of Makkah was granted to Abraham (and his son Ismail) for a place of worship that was to be pure (without idols, the worship being paid to Allah, the One True God) and universal, without being reserved (like Solomon`s Temple of later times) to any one People or Race. (22.26)
2798 Cf. ii. 125. Note that here the word qaimin (`who stand up for prayer`) occurs in place of `akifin (who use it as a retreat). In practice the meaning is the same. Those who go for a retreat to the Ka`ba stay there for the time being. (22.26)
2799 When the Pilgrimage was proclaimed, people came to it for every quarter, near and far, on foot and mounted. The ``lean camel`` coming after a fatiguing journey through distant mountain roads typifies the difficulties of travel, which Pilgrims disregard on account of the temporal and spiritual benefits referred to in the next verse. (22.27)
2800 There are benefits both for this our material life and for our spiritual life. Of the former kind are those associated with social intercourse which furthers trade and increases knowledge. Of the latter kind are the opportunities of realising some of our spiritual yearnings in sacred associations that go back to the most ancient times. Of both kinds may be considered the opportunities which the Pilgrimage provides for strengthening our international Brotherhood. (22.28)
2801 The three special days of Hajj are the 8th, 9th, and 10th of the month of Zul- hijjah, and the two or three subsequent days of Tashriq: see the rites explained in n. 217 to ii. 197. But we may ordinarily include the first ten days of Zul-hijjah in the term. (22.28)
2802 The great day of commemorative Sacrifice (`Id-ul-Adhha) is the 10th of Zul- hijjah: the meat then killed is meant to be eaten for food and distributed to the poor and needy. (22.28)
2803 Tafath-the superfluous growth on one`s body, such as nails, hair, etc., which it is not permitted to remove in Ihram. These may be removed on the 10th day, when the Hajj is completed: that is the rite of completion. (22.29)
2804 The Pilgrimage is completed by the performance of these rites. The Pilgrim should carry in mind the purification he gained in performing his pilgrimage. Then comes the final Tawaf. (22.29)
2805 The general food prohibitions will be found in ii. 173, v. 4-5, and vi. 121, 138- 146. They are meant for health and cleanliness, but the worst abominations to shun are those of false worship and false speech. Here the question is about food during Pilgrimage. Lawful meat but not game is allowed. (22.30)
2806 A parable full of meaning. The man who falls from the worship of Allah, The One True God, is like a man who falls from heaven, His being taken up with false objects of worship is like the failing man being picked up in the air by birds of prey. But the false objects of worship cannot hold him permanently in their grip. A fierce blast of wind-the Wrath of Allah-comes and snatches him away and throws him into a place far, far away from any place he could have imagined-into the hell of those who defied Allah. (22.31)
2807 Sha`air, symbols, signs, marks by which something is known to belong to some particular body of men, such as flags. In ii. 158 the word was applied to Safa and Marwa: see n. 160 there. Here it seems to be applied to the rites of sacrifice. Such sacrifice is symbolical: it should betoken dedication and piety of heart. See below, xxii. 37. (22.32)
2808 In them: in cattle, or animals offered for sacrifice. It is quite true that they are useful in many ways to man, e.g., camels in desert countries are useful as mounts or for carrying burdens, or for giving milk, and so for horses and oxen: and camels and oxen are also good for meat, and camel`s hair can be woven into cloth; goats and sheep also yield milk and meat, and hair or wool. But if they are used for sacrifice, they become symbols by which men show that they are willing to give up some of their own benefits for the sake of satisfying the needs of their poorer brethren. (22.33)
2809 Ila=towards, near. The actual sacrifice is not performed in the Ka`ba, but at Mina, five or six miles off, where the Pilgrims encamp: see n. 217 to ii 197. Thumma = then, finally, in the end; i.e., after all the rites have been performed, Tawaf, Safa and Marwa, and `Arafat. (22.33)
2810 This is the true end of sacrifice, not propitiation of higher powers, for Allah is One, and He does not delight in flesh or blood (xxii. 37), but a symbol of thanksgiving to Allah by sharing meat with fellow-men. The solemn pronouncement of Allah`s name over the sacrifice is an essential part of the rite. (22.34)
2811 The good news: i.e. the Message of Allah, that He will accept in us the sacrifice of self for the benefit of our fellow-men. (22.34)
2812 Some qualities of Allah`s devotees are mentioned here, in ascending order: (1) Humility before Allah makes them receptive, and prepares them to listen to Allah`s Message; (2) fear of Allah, which is akin to love, touches their heart, and penetrates through their inmost being; (3) they are not afraid of anything in mortal life; they take their trials patiently, and they go on in a course of righteousness with constancy; (4) their prayer now is not a matter of form, but a real communion with Allah, with a sense of confidence such as a faithful servant feels in the presence of a kind and loving master; and (5) gratitude to Allah, as shown by practical acts of charity to all fellow-creatures. (22.35)
2813 See n. 2808 to xxii. 33 above. What was expressed in general terms is applied here more particularly to camels, the most precious and useful animals of Arabia, whose mode of slaughter for sacrifice is different from that of smaller animals: the special word for such sacrifice is Nahr (22.36)
2814 There are ethics in begging, as in charity. No approval is given to arrogant and insolent begging, though the relief of distress of all kinds, deserved and undeserved, is included in charity. But those who beg with humility and those who receive gifts with gratitude and contentment are both mentioned for special attention. Charity should not be given for show, or to get rid of importunate demands. It should find out real needs and meet them. (22.36)
2815 The essence of sacrifice has been explained in n. 2810. No one should suppose that meat or blood is acceptable to the One True God. It was a Pagan fancy that Allah could be appeased by blood sacrifice. But Allah does accept the offering of our hearts, and as a symbol of such offer, some visible institution is necessary. He has given us power over the brute creation, and permitted us to eat meat, but only if we pronounce His name at the solemn act of taking life, for without this solemn invocation, we are apt to forget the sacredness of fife. By the invocation we are reminded that wanton cruelty is not in our thoughts, but only the need of food. Now if we further deny the greater part of the food (some theologians fix the proportion at three-quarters or two-thirds) for the sake of our poorer brethren in solemn assembly in the precincts of the Haram (sacred territory), our symbolic act finds practical expression in benevolence, and that is the virtue sought to be taught. We should be grateful to Allah for His guidance in this matter, in which many Peoples have gone wrong, and we should proclaim the true doctrine so that virtue and charity may increase among men.

__________________________
To me it seems that if a Muslim sacrifices without
understanding the concept of benevolence and personal sacrifice, might as well use the bakray
ki raaN to bribe the appropriate people in high places! I don`t see the emphasis on the ritualistic commemoration of Ibrahim almost
slaughtering Ismail (for the sake of Allah, of course), at least not in these ayaat.

Re: Wasiq
With the re-engineering of this ritual, will other`s follow? Exhibiting a mehraab on your
forehead and finishing reading (in Arabic) Quran
three times in shehr-e-ramadan would not be
considered cool anymore? Would interest payments
on your mortgage become exempt from zakaat?

I personally have ``aided`` the qasayee in slaughtering the unlucky bakras. Except for the
one time when the nalaiQ bakra escaped with a head not really on its shoulders did I find it a
bit tedious. I like the added advantage of ``knowing`` what I am eating!

And how are we supposed to hate Hindus if the
Prophet was himself almost a vegetarian! Are you
a RAW agent? Do you eat sushi?

By the way, talking about considering oneself
this or that, I consider myself to be maThahari,
but the medication is helping I think!

Re: Azam
I thought Quran was the one entity which does
not evolve, and yet will not be naturally-selected
against!


If I am moulding these rituals to my code of life,
what do I need them for?

Vote YES on siri-payay!

maTHa: ``If I am moulding these rituals to my code of life, what do I need them for?``

I dont believe that is what WB is suggesting.

I firmly believe we were given minds to USE them, part of which is questioning EVERYTHING.

maTHahari ? does that mean maTHa-eater (like shakahari and masahari?)
Eid Mubarak, and may you eat tons of siri-pa`ay this time around also :)

Wasiq,

A very good article. I understand where you`re coming from. In my opinion, I don`t think you are offending Islam in any way. We should never stop asking ``why``.

To me the spirit of Qurbani is more important than the ritual. Especially when the ritual can`t be sustained in an appropriate manner in a country like Pakistan. I personally feel it is better to make a personal sacrifice - aid charities, communities and various causes with ones time & money, etc. - rather than follow a ritual for the sake of tradition (and yes, dare I say it, even religion). Like BG said, let God decide who`s a good Muslim. On a personal note, my family has never had a Qurbani performed, we prefer to donate funds at a mosque - I don`t think that makes us bad, or good, Muslims. I think it is harmless, hygenic, and more importantly, it helps people who don`t have the proper amenities to prepare and store meat. Just my opinion.

Traditions are often old solutions to old problems, but change is constant.

There has been alot of talk of the ``true spirit`` of qurbani. Let`s not remember why that the raison d`tre of this ritual is even stranger; filthy and grotesque.
A man has a dream that he`s killing his own son. But this is supposedly an extraordinary dream: a command from God to do this unmentionable cruelty. Many times I wonder what kind of sick message are we giving our young children when we teach them to prostrate before a god who gives such orders, eulogize the person who followed them, and throw stones at the good soul who, as the story goes, tried to dissuade Abraham from such barbarism.

Three cheers for the Satan!

MNI

Re: All

Thanks for your responses and criticisms ... here are some individual replies

Re: HK

``Why not re-evaluate it and do it right?`` Yes, why not? And can you guarantee that after a re-evaluation things will be done in exactly the same way?

Re MAK:

As I mentioned in a small note that I posted in the reply section, I do not condone the Western slaughter-houses in any way either. (I think it is not very productive to start referring to the West everytime we start discussing some traditions in the Muslim World.) My point is that faith teaches us not blind emulation but deliberated decision. The facts are in front of us: Do we fulfill the purpose of the institution of sacrifice? At the very least you will agree that sacrifice is more of a ritual than an institution of charity it is supposed to be. There is no compulsion in religion, therefore, I am in no position to lead anyone astray. I am just asking some questions that all Muslims should be asking. I would ask you, how would you change the present situation of Qurbani? How can you benefit the millions of needy Muslims across the world with the incredible spirit of faith during the time of Hajj? Would it not be better if instead of wasting the dead bodies of all those hundred of thousands of animals, we could use those human and material resources more constructively? Please read the short note that I have written in the replies section.

Re: Rehan Rizvi

No, I am not a brown sahib, and was not raised one either. I come from a hard working and honest middle class family, and worked my butt off to get what I have in life. I hope you will understand that I am not casting any aspersions on the faith -- I am voicing some questions that many others have asked before, and we should all be asking, since God has given us the faculty to do so. I understand where the spirit of the sacrifice comes from. We now have to ask ourselves the question if the present situation is in accordance with that spirit.


Re: Kashif

I stand corrected, my figure was a big underestimate. Yes, this year two million animals will be sacrificed. And 500,000 cadavers will be frozen and distributed across the world. I think someone has to find out what happens to the other 1.5 million.

Re: Umer Farouq

Please refer to the little note I posted in the reply section. Yes, people will kill animals for food, but if we cannot fulfill the spiritual basis of the sacrifice, why add another day of mass slaughter of animals, especially if many of those animals will die in vain? We could for example, hold off on sacrificing so many animals during Hajj until there are enough means to freeze all the meat.

Re: amber

Your point is well taken, that some people do get something out of Qurbani. Even if the system is not very efficient, some people do get to see meat once in a year. But don`t you think that in a Muslim society, with charitable Muslims, that should always be the case and should not only be limited to Eid-ul-Adha?

Re: obaid

I agree with your first point (by definition). But let me expound a little on my liberal humbug.

The purpose of fasting and sacrifice is fundamentally different. Though both are spiritually rooted, fasting is primarily directed towards inner purification and self-discipline. Qurbani on the other hand is primarily for social benefit, it provides a festive environment in which people are supposed to share their resources with the less fortunate members of the society. I do not think that one can equate fasting with mere hunger. Therefore talking about the short-comings of an aspect of Islam with overt social implications is not the same as talking about another aspect which is primarily individual.
By taking a new look at how we deal with Qurbani, we are perhaps moving ourselves closer to the spirit of this enterprise. By losing our energy by doing something instead of fasting, we are moving away from the spirit of Ramadan. So I think that the comparison is not proper.

Re: Jawad

I would readily concede that I am not a scholar of Islam, but I would cautiously add that my knowledge is at the very least not a lot less than many others who frequent this forum. So, yes, I am aware of the basic facts. Let`s go from there.

Re: Kishwar

Thanks for sharing your views on this. Definitely, if the primary purpose is not being fulfilled, why kill an animal. I think the opinion of the Islamic scholar in your local masjid regarding this issue makes a lot of sense.

Re: Beatnik

Thanks for clarifying that I am not ridiculing a religion. Yes, we have the faculty to ponder, so why don`t we do so? And I think that the custom of your family probably comes a lot closer to what Qurbani initially intended to achieve anyway.

Re: BG

Thanks for your elucidation. Yes, you are absolutely right BG, we can and should think about this. There are a lot of issues here that we can discuss, and I hope that we do not remain confined to just a few cursory issues. Beyond the issues of logistics and mis-management, are the issues of the spirit of the sacrifice itself. What is the symbolism in the story of Prophets Abraham and Ismail in the first place? Where in all of this lies the balance between death and the sustenance of life?

Re: Waheed Malik

Yes, we should re-examine a lot in a modern context. Why not? What is important is the spirit itself, and not the particulars of how things have been done traditionally over the last few centuries. The situation today is not sacrosanct: it is an accumulation of traditions. So, yes the faith should be open to discussion and to dialogue, and the popular practice of faith should be open to criticism, as is natural in a society of thinking human beings.

Re: Azam Khan

Thanks. You have made a very valuable point. There is a lot that we can learn from the experiences of others.

Re: Anita Zaidi

Yes, you are absolutely right, there is a lot of emphasis on meat in our diet. And culturally the presence of large quantities of meat is considered to be a sign of a good diet. Can you inform us about the medical problems with eating a lot of meat?

Re: MaTha

Thanks for posting the translation of Surah Al-Hajj. There is a lot more to Qurbani than just sacrificing an animal.

Re: BG

Actually, I don`t know what Wasiq`s intended purpose is. Making remarks to suggest that we`ve
lost the spirit of Islam in our acts assumes its
presence at a certain past moment and our ability
to recognize its absence. If we feel compelled
to rekindle this ``Islamic`` spirit, how come we
can fuel it with ideas which might well have been
borne by Christian, Jewish, Buddhist, Humanitarian, etc. etc. philosophies and traditions? Are we enslaved by the event of our
birth? We would be re-engineering Judaism, Christianity, etc. if those were the original
faiths drummed into us! Maybe, it is just what happens when you mix a deep, aged inertia
with a strong desire to change. The realization
that Qurbani nowadays is devoid of its real
meaning is closely followed with similar discoveries about namaaz, roza, hajj, zakaat
and other ritualistic good deeds. Once we
have given ``meaning`` to all these ``pillars``
we might find it useful to baptize our new
religion, after all there is no quota on
naming religions, is there?


The arbitrary nature of it all truly gives profundity to an
otherwise facetious remark:
halaNkeh is say farQ to paRta naheeN!

The second sentence in my last note should read:
``Let`s not forget the raison d`etre ....``

mni

Wasiq:

Reading your article brought back painful memories for me of having to sacrifice animals on this bloody holiday when I was a child. Fortunately, I gave up on Islam several years ago once I realized that I couldn`t blindly follow archaic traditions like this. I, too, went through several years of trying to convince my mind that saying namaaz in a language I didn`t understand of killing poor defenseless animals in a grisly, twisted historic recreation somehow all made sense on some grand cosmic level I didn`t understand. But my heart never agreed, and in the end I had to follow it.

Although I admire your efforts to bring about change (ar atleast invite others to think about change), I feel sorry for you at the same time because I know you will fail. Very few will agree with you, and even fewer will act upon it. Islam is an old cancer-stricken man lying gasping on his death-bed. He had his prime a long time ago, but it`s now time ot let him rest in peace and remember him in the glory of his youth. Don`t prolong his agony by your futile atttempts at resuscitation. There are new children being born that need your attention and energy.

As for me, I feel liberated for once in my life having abandoned the chains of an intellectually and spiritiually suffocating religion. I can now make decisions about how to live my life based on my conscience and my heart, not on out-dated rules. I`ve given up eating meat for both health and environmental reasons, and feel much more vital for it. I regularly donate my time and money to charitable causes where I`m sure my resources are being utilized well. I glean spiritual truths and direction form many sources: religious, philosophical, literary, scientific, physical. My life is so much better now that I live out of love and trust myself. I no longer have to fear a God who might send me to hell for not obeying his commands. Being untrue to myself would be the greatest hell...

I wish you an Eid Mubarak and hope you can still find meaning and purpose in its celebration.

ALL MUSLIM BROTHERS AND SISTERS (if any ;) EID MUBARAK

Re: Wasiq

(``..I think it is not very productive to start referring to the West everytime we start discussing some traditions in Muslim World..``)

I would say one should have a frame of reference while comparing values, cultures, traditions, religion etc and since left my frame (i.e. Paksitan) I become very concious of my values, culture and religion. Now I can analyze and compare my religion with different ones and get composure in all aspects what I have in Islam.

(``..At the very least you will agree that sacrifice is more ritual than an institution of charity it is supposed to be..``)

Yes at the very least I agree that Qurbani is more ritual, but.. but losing spirit of any islamic duty does not grant you a right to alter that and discover new avenues to meet with modern epoch. If we suppose to do that then why Allah descended Quran and why these books of Hadith among us and what is Sunnah then? What you saying is ``Alter Islamic duties if they lose their real spirits and adopt new ways with present situation of the World ``. In another words you saying Quran now is over 1400 years `old` and it was only for thousand years ago when there were real muslims and spirits at full peaks. Isn`t that your hidden thought?

(``..I would ask you, how would you change the present situation of Qurbani? How can you benefit the millions of needy Muslims across the world with the incredible spirit of faith during the time of Hajj..?``)

Thats I described in the last para in my last posting as what would be your next thought. The idea you presented `really missed` by Allah otherwise He would`ve included in Quran that if muslims are found needy, helpless and deprived then forget Qurbani and send them money and in the meantime to fulfil the spirit of Qurbani just go altar touch animals with spirit of Qurbani and let them go this way save your time, money and get reward having compassion on animals.

`Karo Meherbani Tum Aihlay Zameen per
Khuda MeherbaN Hoga Arsh-e Bareen per`

Did this verse fascinate or motivate you to come up with this idea?

Dear friends, Eid Mubarak!!

Re: MaTha

The slogan ``halakay iss say farq to parta nahi`` is probably very interesting to some phenomenologists and epistemologists who are trying to inter-link our experiences and our expression of them. I do not doubt that there is a link of some sort between that ``deep`` and ``involved`` level of comprehension (or at least an attempt to do so) and the more mundane level most people experience but I think that it does make a difference. Perhaps on a cosmological time scale, it does not matter what people (or the entire human race for that matter) do, experience or even care about, but during the lifetimes of humans and their societies, all of this matters. Social norms matter because they impact the lives of each and every member of the society. They impact not only the way we live, act or think, but also how we idealize each and every day of our lives.

Whether one wishes to trace out the entire history of certain traditions (and deconvolute the effects of different causes) or merely takes what is available at hand and tries to correct it according to the information available, is however entirely a personal choice.

Re: MAK

I want to make a remark on the issue of ``modifying`` certain articles of faith because they no longer fulfill their spirit to the letter. I think that is an academic question, we do it all the time, except somehow it becomes blasphemous if someone verbalizes it. For instance, consider the Islamic obligations that Muslims around the world conveniently choose to ignore. e.g. Should people not be volunteering their time and resources to help other muslims in trouble around the world? That is not done, because it is physically, mentally and materially demanding. However, people will get annoyed with a suggestion that something be re-considered because it usually translates into a sacrifice on part of the people. It is easier to buy animals and to sacrifice it than it is to volunteer one`s time fulfilling a social obligation.

And there are definite ways in which this waste can be avoided without losing the symbolism of the ritual also. For example, what if one were to say that yes, sacrifice could go on, but instead of every person performing it individually, entire communities did it together to fulfill the tradition. Like only one animal could be sacrificed by the Imam of a masjid to represent all the people who attend that masjid. Or maybe the Imam of Kaaba could sacrifice one animal for the entire Muslim community?

Re: Rehan Rizvi

I agree with your realism. However, may I humbly (and optimistically) suggest that societies are after all only collections of individuals, and over time a slow change in the attitudes of individuals inevitably leads to a change in the attitudes of a society. Some things have to percolate through the system.

Re: Wasiq

(``..Should people not be volunteering their time and resources to help other muslims in trouble around the world?..``)

Your point is valid and I agree with it a tangent of your article though.

(``..It is easier to buy animals and to sacrifice it than it is to volunteer one`s time fulfilling a social obligation..``)

I think this has been the main reason of losing the spirit of Qurbani. People feel ease buying animals mostly on `Chaan Raat` to show of `Tagra Bakra` specially to neighbours and here we find more ritual less religious duty. Allah wants to see our devotion and sincerity to our faith. There is an artifice in each act of Allah and we cant understand with our limited rationality. Materialism is so elusive that to get it we forget our social obligations. But religious duties shouldnt be appended with the social responsibilities. Allah set all the priorities (religious, social etc.) and one should follow accordingly.

(``..Sacrifice could on, but instead of every person performing it individual, entire communities did it together to fulfil the tradition..``)

This is very interesting point and let me clarify this is not a tradition but religious duty. If performing Qurbani collectively would be better for an entire community then how many people would ride on an animal (say Cow, Camel or Bakra) on the day of Qiamat to cross `Bridge of Saraat`. If Imam-e-Kaaba performs this duty on behalf of all muslims then where you think you would find a place on the animal to cross the Saraat. I think you ignored this aspect. This is why Islam suggested share of at most seven people in Cow/Camel to avoid strife.

I dont know how `open-minded` you are but I can see a glimpse thru your article. Despite entering in my first year of Ph.D. I couldnt `open` my brain to accept these things.

Re: Rehan

Thanks for your comments.
You`re basically asking me to take Pascal`s Wager: that I should bet on the existence of God because doing so would ensure me success in the afterlife if indeed He does exist. No offense, but that seems like a rather selfish and petty reason to have faith and devote onself to serving God.

Personally, I don`t care whether or not I continue on after this physical life or not or whether I get sent to a heaven or hell. Respecting myself and doing good for others are virtues in themselves that don`t need to be adulterated by promises of future rewards. Didn`t the ancient mystic Rabia al-Adawiyyah say that she would set fire to the heavens and extinguish the flames of hell and only worship for the love of God? Wouldn`t it be noble for a man to live a selfless life knowing that his love for God, his fellow humans, and for his earth was his one and true reward?

As for eternity, it is now, not in the future, not in the past. It is not a function of time but a state of being. Experiences of eternity happen in this very life, those moments of great joy or great anguish when you feel yourself acutely connected or disconnected to the rest of creation.

Wasiq:

You have done a great job. The debate this piece has generated is broader based (in diversity of participants and view points). Congratulations. I just wanted to put in a word of support at your honest and sensible stance and am thrilled to see that some more open-minded free thinks are coming out with their views. Aldoux Huxley once said something to the effect that: in primitive societies one must not phuck with the native’s religion or they will cook you in boiling oil.

The Internet may yet be the saving grace of the Muslim world where free discussion of ideas is possible without the immediate threat of physical violence. And perhaps the new generation will bring about Reformation and be free of this universal sickness of the mind that befalls the “ummah”. Here in cyberspace the primitive minded, unthinking dinosaurs can only express impotent rage and call you names when you step on their putrefied, gangrenous tails. Hang in there brother and keep it up, you do have friends and well-wishers.

How can we expect to get anywhere when ritual has become the central focus of religion. Someone here gave an excellent analogy of a terminally ill cancer patient who is on his last stretch. The primitive minded traditionalists have made Islam exactly that. (Run around the black rock in seven circles, hit the forehead to the ground 5 times a day, speak certain mantras over and over, etc. etc.) These people consider the ‘voo-zu’ broken if one passes gas. They want to do the voo-zu again before prayer. I find it curious that they want to wash hands, feet, elbows, rinse the mouth and clean behind the ears, and all that while that is not where the gas came out of. They don’t consider it necessary to wash (or even wipe) the part of their anatomy which served as the exhaust outlet. Now that is real bright, isn’t it?

BTW, one quick anecdote about the “bridge of Saraat”. One of your detractors brought it up as if that was a silencing argument. (We’ll not get into the invalidity of that nonsensical concept for now.)

A ‘maraasi’ (minstrel) was once forced to attend a jumma nimaz where a maulana was telling his prayer gathering about the bridge Saraat.

The maulana described the ‘deep pit of fire’ that the bridge spans and that the faithful will ride sacrificed animals to cross over to Paradise. The maulana went on to say that the bridge Saraat was sharper than the blade of a sword and narrower than the width of a hair.

The maraasi said: “pull Saraat tay du foot choraH vi bun sakda see, ey tay naH langHan da bahana vay” (The bridge Saraat could have easily been constructed two feet broad, these are mere excuses to not let us through).

[:-)))

...SR

Islam as I see it is a religion of the times. And as such we have to intepret religion with the times.

I remember my mother telling me of a story of a person that was about to go for Hajj. The night before he was about to leave, he got a dream that despite him being a Hajji (after having performed Hajj), he was refused enterance to Heaven. When he enquired about the reason, he was told that his neighbour was going hungry for the last 7 days and that instead of helping him, this person was about to spend his wealth on Hajj. This was a major shock to this person and the next morning he went over to his neighbour to ensure that his needs were being met.

When I mentioned that interpret religion with time, I would like to go back 1400 years to see what the persons in those periods considered most valuable. They did not have cars or buy houses all over the world, etc. They basically valued their wealth in terms of their agricultual possessions. And what better means of professing their love for religion then sacrificing something that they love the most (remember the story of Ibrahim, where he starts off by sacrificing all his wealth culminating with his dearest of possession his son) - their animals. The sacrifices are body, mind, and wealth (both money and children). Now when I say sacrifice children, I do not mean, put them to the sword, but enable the children to work for the good. How many of our children may have gone in the six months (after matric and intermediate) of vacation to the rural places in Pakistan to teach (academic education and health education).

The other point, I would like to make, is that in times of Holy Prophet, they did not have standing armies. They had to depend on regular citizens to defend the cities. And mind you those persons where no different from us, becoming nauseous at the sight of blood. How would they be able to fight if they could not stand the sight of blood. Institute a process by which they are able to undertake action in the name of religion. This does not mean that religion is cruel but it is practical. Remember, Islam does not, like Christianity, preach turning the cheek. It talks about protecting rights of communities.

All in all I do not have any disagreements with the author on the various means a sacrifice may take.

Re: Wasiq

First of all, the slogan ``halaNkeh iss say farq to
paRta naheeN`` is not a slogan, or was not meant to be. It`s more of an adage, and whether it`s popular with phenomenologists and epistemologists,
I don`t know, but I`ll take your word for it!

It seems to me that I am mistaken about both
your intended reason for writing this article
and your intended audience.

What I disagree with, and disagree whole-heartedly, is your implication that faith and reason are compatible, that people ought
to recalibrate their faith with the passage of time
with appeals to common sense. The legitimacy of
the unification of faith and reason cannot be
resolved by the norms of argumentation (in the QED sense), and the same applies to the existence of God. If you did imply that such a compatibility exists then we shouldn`t
argue about it, as we will be talking past each other, which is a lot of fun but not consequential
(and therefore, the adage would fit in again). If you didn`t,
then I`ve misunderstood you and you must educate me.

It makes no sense to me to accept a certain ideology and then twist and turn it to suit
one`s mindset, just to be able to call it your own. If your Creator knows what`s best for you then how come your common sense over-rules the
Creator`s infinite wisdom? I could quote the Book again but then it`s a really old text and in the
wrong language too! English seems to be the
language of choice for the future.

Vote YES on gurday-kapooray!

Re: Rehan Rizvi

Since gambling (astaGhfirullah!) is the activity of choice, let me add to your statistical distribution (maybe no more than 1%) the possibility that everything goes as dictated,
except that on roz-e-mehShar Allah has noorani PMS
(destined to produce mood swings) and decides
(of course, He already knew that, as He knows
everything) to NOT be just (He is all-powerful, it would be very inconvenient to be stuck being just all the time)! A lot of wagers would pay-off well then! This is, obviously, a very unlikely possibility. I just wanted to promote educated
waging!

Re: MaTha

You have raised a very important point: Should faith and reason be compatible. I think they should be absolutely! My simplistic reason for that would be this: All people, to various degrees, possess the ability to reason and to compare what they believe in with what they observe around them. Consider an extreme example: If a simple belief stated that the earth is made of an edible pastry, people will only believe in it for so long, before they will decide that it does not make any sense. I would think that people`s beliefs and faiths change over time for that reason. During the Medieval times, Galileo had to face persecution because he went againt the geocentric dogma of the Church, but eventually Vatican had to apologize for its treatment of him (though much much later).

At a special ceremony in the Vatican on 9 May 1983, the Pope declared: ``The Church`s experience, during the Galileo affair and after it, has led to a more mature attitude ... The Church herself learns by experience and reflection and she now understands better the meaning that must be given to freedom of research... one of the noblest attributes of man... It is through research that man attains to Truth... This is why the Church is convinced that there can be no real contradiction between science and faith ... (However) it is only through humble and assiduous study that (the Church) learns to dissociate the essential of the faith from the scientific systems of a given age, specially when a culturally influenced reading of the Bible seemed to be linked to an obligatory cosmogony.``


Re: SR

Thanks for your kind words. Your comments are, as usual, incisive and illuminating. Yes, it seems that the voo-zu is being broken far too frequently, and gallons of water are flowing. Won`t it help to change the diet? :)

I thought that the story was brilliant --perhaps just goes to show that the whole edifice is actually upside down! Would have been much better if the two characters had been inter-changed!

Re: Momin

Thank you for your comments. You`re absolutely right, essentials over non-essentials. There are a lot more important things that usually get lost in the mindless repetition of rituals. A blind following of rituals at the expense of the underlying spiritual mooring, is probably an indicator of the fact that the faith does not manifest itself in us. Therefore we have to clutch at mere rituals in order to feel connected. It has to be the other way around ...

Re: Emaan

Hear, hear. Well said.

Re: Asem A

Well, I think, that is immaterial to the issue at hand :)

Re: Amin Saleh

You have mentioned a very valuable point, namely in the past, people`s wealth was measured in terms of their possessions in an agricultural society. The amount of wealth of a person was quantified in terms of the animals etc. that he/she possessed. We do not count our wealth in terms of animals anymore, at least not in modern urban societies. The symbolism of the sacrifice itself, i.e Prophet Abraham sacrificing his most dear possession, and conversely the unquestioning acceptance of Prophet Ismail to the faith, is an extremely powerful example of a sacrifice of one`s wealth (and life). If we consider that, then a broader interpretation of Qurbani, which is not limited to the slaughter of animals brings it easier to get back to the intended spirit of this ritual.

Re: M. Aliani

Your remarks are very perceptive. Maybe at one point we will be able to evolve to a point where life by itself is valued, and not the particular form that it is in. How long do you think that will take?

Re: Saad Shafqat

I do not think that Qurbani will be discontinued, there is an immense cultural and traditional inertia that will keep it going forward. However, do you think that we Muslims should re-consider how we view Qurbani? If we do then there might be some big changes in the way the tradition is being followed. I think all of those changes will be for the better.

Re: Ibne SIna

I think that you have raised some important points, which at the very least should be pondered by all Muslims. What do we see is the future of Islam? I find your comment ``clock is ticking...`` to be very pertinent, and the question is how will the coming generations view the coming decades?

Re: Umer

The only statistic that I have been able to find out is that 2 million animals will be sacrificed this year, and only 500,000 will be frozen and distributed. Would it be possible to find out what happens to the rest?

Re: Debate

I very much enjoyed during the debate and `discovered` some new people with their modern ideology about Islam. It seems to me all the participants in the debate claim muslims but surprisingly deny to accept the `roots` of their faith stating platitudes. Since they dont believe on Islamic `anectodes` I hope they no longer believe on the last Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and his teachings, Sunnah. Then I perplex how come these people like to be called as muslims and why dont they find their own identity or label (like Qadiani, Bahai etc.). Muslims are considered very narrow minded, uncouthy, chauvinistic, pugnacious etc. so these people I think dont fulfil the definition of muslim. They are well cultured, highly qualified, reverent and staid they must be new specie other than muslim. If still they insist they are muslims then I like to ask some questions with myself.

What kind of muslims they are who take pride to quote non-muslims writers, scholars and `liberals` so-called `muslims` and never remember to write single line of the last Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) [because `his quotes are too old and not compatible with this 21st century`]. What kind of muslims they are who argue/interfere on artific of Allah using their decimal rationality even they dont know what longitude/latitude Eureka is. What kind of muslims they are jape on their islamic duties and deride it demanding to alter with their preposterous notions. What kind of muslims they are who verge to non-muslims cringe them to get a foot space among them and for this share pea of Satan (wine, vodka, champagne etc.).

Conspicuously they pretend muslims but if their hearts are opened would be found balck with stench wihthout any spot of white Islamic beam.

Finally only one comment on the lady her name is very nice but she said vice versa. I suggest her to start strolling on rope with some acrobators and they would help you in crossing the Saraat ;)

Things should be taken in the proper context. The break of the Vazoo concept was implemented as a polite way of asking the namazi to move out of the congregation, in consideration of others.

The Vazoo does not have anything to do with becoming clean after gas.

Those were not the times when they had Mylox for upset stomach.

Finally, he who forsakes Islam, unfortunately does not understand (and has not taken the trouble of understanding) Islam. So let us not be ignorant, and because of some misguided people forsake the religion. All religions, without exception, have got persons practising it, that is contradictory to its tenets. This does not mean, a person should try to maintain his track on the right path.

REVITALIZING ISLAMIC THOUGHT

We live in a century of discordant Islamic thought. The ideological and cultural threads that formed the warp and woof of the Islamic
Ummah are on the verge of being completely broken. Faith first receded from a collective level to
an individual level. Now it is on the retreat even on the individual level. What we are witnessing is more than mere decay of Islamic thought, we are witnessing its death. The cacophony of ideas that we hear from across the Muslim world are the last convulsions of an organism that has been diseased for a long time.

Let us ask ourselves the question, what exactly it is that is dying? What is dying is the Islamic thought itself, because it cannot manifest itself in us. Civilizations crystallize around ideals
that enable individuals to transcend themselves and identify themselves with a collective. Ideals empower individuals first, and then their societies to act as a coherent whole. The history of great civilizations is a history of individuals who have been unified by common ideals, purpose and action. When the foundations of ideals
are removed, all that is built on top is bound to
collapse. Societies are transformed into chaotic collections of people whose actions and purposes never resonate.

This is precisely what we see today amongst the Muslims, a deep-rooted psychological disjuncture. With their ideological and collective bonds
broken, they are following the same path that others have followed in history when their civilizations have collapsed. The response of
Muslims to this crisis is usually one of the following three.

First, there are the practicing Muslims, who follow Islam down to each and every ritual, but Islamic thought does not bind them into coherent
beings. Instead, their ideals and actions are contradictory. Their ideology never endows them with a moral conviction that encapsulates
each and every moment of their lives. They fill their moral vacuum by stressing on secondaries while forgetting the primaries. One will
therefore run into phenomena like the Taliban or Sipah-e-Sahaba, who will pursue outright barbarity to achieve their ends, in complete contradiction to what they profess in. If someone questions the
traditional interpretations of Islam, or criticizes some aspect of the faith, their reaction is usually extreme. This I believe is a
defensive reflex that stems from an insecurity about the potency of the faith.

Second, there are those who have completely given up in despair, and have silently or openly embraced alternative methods to forge an individual identity. They are usually secular, but stick to secularist ideals with as much blind faith and acceptance that they accuse the
practicing Muslims of. Bereft of their own heritage, and permanently disconnected from their newly adopted alien heritage, they are trapped
in a vicious cycle of first emulating others and then searching for their own roots. This by itself is not surprising, it is to be expected on the outset of any social transition. One would expect that within a proper secular social matrix, over long term, their identities would find a stable point.

Finally, there are those who are completely indifferent. Paralyzed by uncertainty and fear, they hedge their bets and do not decide one way
or another between acceptance or rejection of Islam. The most likely fate of this category is a life of indifference, that slowly rolls
over into a life of ambiguous acceptance as they grow old. For them, old age requires security of a faith, whose foundations have not been
sunk over the years.

What is common to all of three categories is that there is no unifying thread in life. A lack of coherence shows itself in each and every
sphere of their lives i.e. a person would pray five times a day and perform Hajj multiple times, yet accept bribery and forgery to be perfectly acceptable ways of sustaining his livelihood. Similarly, one meets liberal Muslims who will drink alcohol in abundance, yet abstain
completely from eating pork. This glaring contradiction in the life of a Muslim, is indicative of the advanced stage of decay in which we find the body of Islamic thought. On this critical juncture, therefore, we need to ask ourselves what are the reasons for this crisis and what ways are there to correct it?

What are the reasons for the crisis?

What really informs us of the crisis in Islamic thought is the fact that the Islamic world lags behind the West politically, economically
and ideologically. We have seen the West bloom in the past few hundred years, rising from virtual anonymity on the world stage to become the foremost power in the globe. Western colonialism in its heyday controlled most of the land mass of the planet. The Industrial and the Scientific
Revolution occurred in the West, and has endowed it with a definite technical, economic and political superiority over the rest of the
world. In contrast, the Muslims world is mostly poor with backward economies. The richest countries in the Muslim World are controlled by
claustrophobic monarchies or dictatorships. The average Muslim is uneducated and unskilled by modern standards. All this poverty, backwardness and incapacitance are the icons of Islam in the modern world.

Upon a cursory comparison of the icons of traditional Islam and the modern West, one can reach the conclusion that the reason for the
backwardness of Islamic World is Islamic thought itself. I think that is the primary reason why Islam does not manifest itself in the lives
of modern Muslims. Due to the failure of Islamic societies across the globe, Muslims are attracted towards the ideologies that are successful. The traditional minded tend to revert back to pristine
Islam. Others simply abandon it altogether.

However, this conclusion by itself is again
simplistic. Let us for a minute assume that Islamic scholars could agree on a core set of beliefs that would constitute Islamic thought. That would not necessarily imply that Islamic ideals would be implemented faithfully. For example, die-hard Marxists would not agree
with the Leninist interpretations of Communism. Ideals are open to interpretations, and many factors (personal, cultural, political etc.)
determine how people interpret the same thing.

All of this is further complicated by the fact that over the centuries, the number of different interpretations of Islamic ideals has grown. Islamic scholars find themselves debating over arcane issues which have lead to the separation of different sects and movements in Islam. In addition, over the centuries, one sees a
decline in the quality of scholarship of Islam. Whereas in the past, the best and the brightest students were attracted to Islamic scholarship, today, the worst of the lot end up in this crucial
position. Islamic scholarship is not considered an attractive career for a Muslim today. This drastic change of perception stems not only from a declining confidence in Islam as a guiding philosophy of life, but also from the decay and destruction of the traditional Islamic
centers of learning.

All of the above mentioned factors are fundamental to the decay of Islamic thought today. A young Muslim today sees a prevalent Islam which is clearly ineffectual in establishing a position for itself in the modern world. As a reaction if one decides to revert to the ``original`` Islam, one is confronted by a massive amount of ambiguous
and not entirely consistent set of traditional interpretations of Islam. To de-convolute the effects of fourteen centuries is virtually
impossible. In addition, one comes across many traditional interpretations of Islam that are not in accordance with what we see around us. Before I mention a few problems with the traditional
Islamic interpretations, let me define what criteria must be used to question Islamic thought..... (more later hopefully!)

One of my questions: What do you think is the reason for this crisis??

Re: Wasiq

I suggest you write in your reply `I`, `me` rather using `We`, `us` (unless you respresen a group of person of your thought). There is dying (or died) just inside you and nothing in Islam. Islam is intact since its birth 1400 years ago and flourishing day by day. To justify your shortcomings, malpractices and ignominious ruses you present just western quotes. I think you may want to look my posting of Feb 2, 1998 in the article `The Good, the bad and the Anxiety` written by a bad girl.

Nevertheless, I suggest you one thing just for an experiment. Any day after `Maghrib` or `Isha` (preferably) go to an isolated room and take Quran (Urdu Translation and NOT english one) and read first chapter, just urdu and after that if you feel any change then you still have heat of Islam and if you remained intact then wait to `combat` with Allah. Allah bless all muslims.

RE: Wasiq`s ``Revitalizing Islamic Thought``

Excellent analysis. I would add that the death of Islamic thought over the centuries has been paralleled and accelerated by the death of Islamic institutions (which you hint at at the end of your article). This intellectual and socio-political demise has led to the ``psychological disjuncture`` of Muslims and fragmented the community into the Islamists, Secularists, and Indifferents which you have described.

You suggest a broad overhaul of Islamic thought as a means out of this quagmire. However, this would require a parallel overhaul and reformulation of Islamic institutions to propogate the new renaissance you hope for. That is a very difficult thing to do considering there is no supreme governing body in Islam as there is in Catholicism, Mormonism, Bahai, and other religions. Who would decide who gets to be on the committee to start changing the rules? Who gets to be labeled as ``Islamic Scholar`` ? The Islamists and Secularists would never agree on setting an agenda for discussion, let alone forging a new intellectual framework and philosophy.

Isn`t this how sects get started? Some perceptive and questioning individual sees injustice or irrational thinking in his/her community and decides to forge a new one based on his/her revolutionary ideas. Sectarianism has always been a part of religion and always will. The Sunni/Shia split happened first, followed by several others, and now maybe we`re in the midst of Islamist/Reformed split. And I`m sure these categories will keep splitting as time goes on. There will never be any broad renaissance of the entire Muslim world because there will never be any institutional unity.

Re: Islam is the fastest growing religion...

According the the Encyclopedia Britannica (or atleast the latest edition I`ve read), Islam is the fastest growing religion in the U.S., but Bahai is the fastest growing religion in the world. I`m not interested in following any organized religion myself, but if I were an alien who came to live on Earth and had to choose one religion (being free of all earthly cultural baggage), I would definitely choose Bahai over Islam. It wins hands down in terms of institutional integrity and universality.

Peace...

Re: Hajjis Killed In Stampede

This year it was not a fire but a mere stampede, killing many who were not strong.

Once again a wake up call comes from the cradle of Islam and starkly demonstrates how hazardous these ancient rituals have become in toady’s overcrowded world. Like the wasteful ritual of Qurbani, the mass madness witnessed during Hajj is not only primitive and futile, it is a downright Public Health disaster.

The potential threat of worldwide epidemics which can start at Hajj and devastate Muslims around the world must force us to think about controlling and curtailing this practice, otherwise sooner or later there will be even costlier fiascoes that may not remain confined to Mynah but spread to the Hajjis’ countries of residence.

With the exception of zakaat, the other four of the so-called five pillars are useless and unnecessary today and, in the case of Hajj and roza, even hazardous to human health and well being. We should simply de-emphasize these rituals so that only the most dedicated ritualists stay with them and the rest of the Ummah is free to go about their lives unencumbered and unadmonished.

...SR

Re: MAK

Dear MAK, no offense intended. Please read my blurb again, it is not a way to stigmatize a faith. I am asking a simple question which you should also be asking (perhaps you already do, I know many Islamic scholars have pondered this question). My question is:

Why does Islamic thought not manifest itself completely and coherently in Muslims?

Sure, people read the Quran, and feel the ``heat`` of Iman, but then why do the same people violate Islamic principles flagrantly? That is what I am asking.

Re: Rehan Rizvi

Your comments are very perceptive. How does one maintain the spirit and identity of a faith when dealing with an issue where a fundamental change (at the very least in the enactment of a ritualistic aspect of the faith) somewhere seems necessary?

It is a difficult issue to resolve, undoubtedly, and there are no quick answers to it. This requires thought. However, we have on the other hand identified some areas where the present way of fulfilling a particular ritual does not satisfy its intended purpose.

Re: Kafir

You have identified a very important issue. The issue of authority in such issues. Sure, we have the fundamental sources of Islamic thought, but getting from there to a resolution of practical issues requires life-long scholarship and intimate understanding of the sources. This process itself is hopelessly divided into different schools of thought, who have over time, stopped communicating and inter-relating to each other. In the absense of a singular intellectual pole in the ummah, whether an individual or a group of individuals, this problem is quite intractable. And yes, I can see why sects would branch off in an attempt to resolve this.

Re: momin

Thanks for your kind words. You have a very balanced way of dealing with such important issues, and thanks for sharing your views. I agree with you completely that Muslims were always meant to be completely open and honest about their faiths. They have been repeatedly asked to ponder and to use their minds, which is the faculty that sets them apart from other living beings. As Quran repeatedly says: The truth has been separated from falsehood, so why should we be afraid of using our divinely endowed faculties?

interesting article. don`t agree with everything people have said in responses, but here`s what happened to our neighbor this eid. they bought two bakras, for Rs.4000 and Rs.3000. then they got a qasai who asked Rs.700 to prepare the bakras. so they decided not to have any qurbani and sold their bakras for profit. also no one talked about the eid prayers. my cousin told me that this time also they had the namaz under armed bodyguards. it was very difficult to pray knowing that terrorists can come any time to kill the people during prayers. go figure.

lots of noise in this interaction, though lots of good points also. There is a call for rejunevation but also for cautious reform not revolution.

rehan: religion is not a mechanical or
technical act, full of just laws. i don`t think
that the comparision (that is very prevlant) with
doctors is applicable to religion. Religion is
full of spiritual understandings, and that cannot
be accuarately quantified. We cannot just
leave it to the scholars to come up with rulings
and then follow blindly. Frankly i wouldnt advise
that with doctors either, but the point is that
religion is part of who the individual and community
is, and scholars play a role, but not one that is
absolute... altaf
http://www.wco.com/

Re: Rehan Rizvi

(“...That`s what I was concerned about. You talk about reform and people get carried away. First to go was Qurbani, then it was Hajj, then went the other two pillars...”)

Rizvi sahib, your prediction was logical but your concerns are mainly based on fear of change. Unfortunately, change is inevitable and the sooner we accept this fact and prepare ourselves for it, the better.

Four of the so-called five pillars, which I have denounced are mere ritualistic practices with little relevance or justification today.

Zakaat, is the only one of the five that has lasting social justification and I think its rate should be increased from one in 40 (2.5%), to maybe 1 in ten (10%). There is tremendous social benefit that can come to millions if this is done properly.

Stubbornly holding on to old rituals because of fear is hardly a recipe for improving a decaying society that is already obsessed with those rituals. As an example let’s think of someone who inherits a huge house from a great-grand parent and discovers all kind of weird old stuff in the attic and basement. There are three ways that person may deal with his inheritance:

(1) Demolish the old building (or sell it) and replace it with another one which is new.

(2) Keep the old facade preserving its traditional charm, but repaint and repair the dilapidated parts, get new plumbing, wiring and climate control installed, and refurbish the kitchen appliances.

(3) Faithfully keep everything exactly like it was without regard to the fact that the bathrooms don’t have running water, the roof leaks, the coal burning stove smokes up the rooms and the latrines stink, because great-granddaddy had built the BEST house which he declared was good for ever.

In my personal opinion the second option gets the person the best of both worlds. There are several qualities in the old mansion which are worth preserving and demolishing the whole house will destroy them. On the other hand, it is quite unnecessary to refuse running water and flush toilets.

This analogy may help explain my approach towards our cultural heritage. There are some things that we can keep and be that much the better off for them, and there are others that can either stay or go, depending on our preferences, while there are still others that must be abolished because the are counter productive today.

Utterances and mantras, while quite superfluous in my personal view, are none the less benign and may be retained by those who get a kick out of them.

However, there are some rituals, that can do actual harm in terms of Public Health and economic and intellectual retardation. Those I denounce. (In my opinion, these ‘hazardous’ rituals range from the trivial to the absurd: Circumcision, Roza and Hajj to name the primary examples.)

Momin sahib has presented and excellent set of rationalizations for ‘nimaz’, ‘roza’ and ‘hajj’ which I shall address later, along with some others....its beautiful day and I’m going out.

Respectfully...SR

Re: SS

Saad: Thank you for your input. I just came on-line to post the reply to Rizvi sahib`s points and then I read your post. You are someone whom I would never presume to reply off-hand. Unfortunately, I`ll have to do so later, but there are a few remarks I have.

It was expected (and even hoped :)to tell the truth)that someone will pick up the `roza-is-good-for-health` argument. (Its an oft-repeated part of the dogma and the medically trained have come up with some great arguments which it would be an hounor to explore under your guidance.)

Both your factual points are correct but, I daresay, your conculsions are worth debating over as they may be ideologically inspired and not emperically derived. (In my message to Rizvi sahib I threw in circumcision for good measure in the hope of exploring that too -perhaps we can begin a new thread.) There are also other animal studies regarding fatty infiltration of the liver and much else that need to be looked at in addition to the caloric intake reduction studies. However, typing on-line on the InterAct with my hunt-and-peck typing style gets too tedious. Allow me to come back to you on this point in the next day or two.

...SR

Re: Wasiq

I think the debate on the article and relevant matters is over and now binary and tertiary issues coming up. I agree with your question `Why does Islamic thought manifest itself completely and coherently in Muslims?` and I think if you write an article on this subject the debate could carry on thereafter. However, I appreciate your patience during the debate despite of my `harsh words` or `insolence at any level` (which I never intended to do deliberately). Hopefully I see you sometime on any other article. Cheers.

Re: General Audiences

I never intended yo disgrace or degrade someone`s faith but wanted to expose those who openly inflicted the basis of Islam. I respect all religions and faiths and so am I expect. Nevertheless, anyone of any faith hurt or I misunderstood someone then I offer my apology.

I like to clarify that I am not any kind of Islamic scholar nor associate with any religious party or jamaat. As I said several times I am science student (Ph.D program) and the expressions just of my personal.

Finally :)

Mr. SR gave an example of `his level`. Muslims are poor people and merely earn their livelihood for two times. They cant think of `great-grand parents` inheritance. Just only an `special clique` can afford the heyday. BTW why that person want to stick with the old edifice and how come he doesnt make money by selling out that and enjoy his life staying in different motels/hotels. ;)
Cheers All.

i have`t read your whole article...but i was surprised to see the heading u gave. Sir this is not a tradition and the poor animals r not just being killed for tradition..this is out religion and we follow our prophets who did the scrifice of his child in the name of Allah. We slaughter all these animals to mark the obedience and faith of that prophet on Allah. You should start thinking like this from now on...there r many misunderstandings about our religion and u should not add another 1 in it

Shehryaar Ahmed sahib:
Are you related to Khomeni? Jokes aside, I don`t want to cause grief to the Chowkwallahs. If they feel that my comments will cause them danger, they can delete. There`ll be no bitterness on my part. I wish I`d learn to be more tactful.

SR:
On your building metaphor...
If the old building has crumbling foundations, then we need to build a new one. No one`s saying we can`t still save money by re-using some old doors and windows in our new building. Afterall, everything isn`t crumbling. While we are at it, our next-door neighbors` house went down before ours. We might want to look at how they built their new house; copy what we like, and ignore what we don`t.

Rgds
MNI

Re: Saad Shafqat

Health and ‘Roza’

(1) In your note you stated that there is ‘no evidence’ that roza is hazardous to ‘healthy’ people.

I concede that there is no recorded scientific evidence of harm done as a result of ‘roza’ to individuals who are otherwise strong and healthy.

(2) You seemed to imply that ‘roza’ is good for health (though you did not come outright and say it).

This contention is equally without evidence. The reference you quoted (N Eng J Med, 1997, 337:986) pertains to caloric intake reduction and its effects on aging.

(Since I do not subscribe to the New England Journal and my Medline account has not been active in some years, I did not have access to the full-text article in question so I have sent off for it and would like to explore the specifics after I have the required references in hand, which takes about five days.)

I fail to see automatically how you can equate caloric reduction (CR) to ‘roza’.

My thought is that there is probably no epidemiological data on ‘roza’ effects on people. You would need to do a prospective study for that which I doubt if anyone has done, so we’ll have to look at animal studies for the most part.

Animal studies which are more relevant would be those that measure the ‘physiological stress as an effect of short-term starvation’ and not those that study the effects of ‘caloric reduction on aging’.

Caloric reduction in rats (in the context of its aging effects) is a meaningful concept only when looked at over a longer period, such as months or years. ‘Roza’ does not fit the description of a sustained caloric reduction model. If ‘roza’ was a practice that was done, say, once a week all around the year then you may have argued that its aggregate effect is that of overall caloric intake reduction. Instead, what we have is a practice where for a period of one month dietary (and more importantly fluid intake) habits are radically altered in a manner that enhances physiological stress. The total caloric intake may even INCREASE when we look at ‘saher’ and ‘iftaar’ gluttony. On this idea I wonder if you still think that CR studies can be presented as evidence to argue the beneficial effects of ‘roza’. Nonetheless, we’ll look at the ‘Materials and Methods’ of the referenced studies before making comparisons to ‘roza’.

‘Roza’ is more akin to short-term starvation. In addition we also have to look at the effects of short-term dehydration. I am by no means more than a layman in this area, but it is an elementary fact that physiological stress causing activities DO NOT enhance longevity.

It may be one thing to say that “roza causes no harm to healthy people”, but it is a flight of fantasy to claim that it is beneficial to health. If it were really “good for health”, as many will chant in unison, then isn’t it logical to ask why the sick are exempt from it instead of being advised to observe ‘roza’ even more frequently?

The original point that I made was primarily against Hajj being a Public Health hazard. When you responded to say that my contention about roza was without evidence, I couldn’t help notice your silence over the Hajj issue. I take it then that you did not object to the notion of Hajj being an enhanced risk factor for morbidity and mortality. Just wondering? :)

Re: MNI

C`mmone man, be a generous. The foundations aren`t really rotted though there maybe considerable termite damage. Nothing a reinforcement job will not solve. As for the doors and windows, I`d rather junk them and get double glazed ones. Its the masonary and craftsmanship of the patterns on the granite and marble facade that should be saved. As far as copying the neighbors is concerned, that will not be feasible. They are far wealthier and have had good fortune of working on the building while the inflation was a lot lower... (This is getting silly) :)

...SR

Re: Sohail Rabbani and Saad Shafqat/health hazards vs. benefits of roza

I feel obliged to interject that a fairly simple study to assess the hazards, if any, of roza, would be to retrospectively compare the prevelance of renal stones among fasters vs. non-fasters in a hot climate. I suspect that Dr. Rabbani will have proven his point,:) but hey, hypotheses have been wrong before!

Coming back to the eating lots of meat issue, here are a few downsides that come to mind.

Non-infectious:
Increased risk of cardiovasular disease
Increased risk of cancer
Increased risk of obesity

Infectious (these parasites live in animal tissues)
Toxoplasma
Trichinella
Beef tapeworm
Variant Creutzfeldt Jacob disease: human version of Mad Cow Disease, a uniformly fatal disorder with 100 cases reported in Britain. Nobody knows how many more will occur, and if the epidemic is still in its infancy, or is largely over. Nobody knows how it really started, but it is suspected that cows (about a million cows got affected) got it by being fed meals prepared from sheep offal that carried a prion disease called scrapie. Scientists suspect that eating organ meat, especially brain is more likely to transmit the agent, than eating muscle. This is based on the observation that another similar disease called Kuru that develops in the cannibalistic Fore natives of Papua New Guinea developed mainly in women and children - in Fore culture men would get first pass and preferred to eat the choice muscle cuts, while women and children ate the left-overs, including offal. The guy who first described this phenomenon, Dr. Carlton Gajdusck, a pediatrician trained where I work, won the Nobel Prize. Unfortunately, he is currently in jail for pedophilic activities with Fore children.

Anita

moderation in everything is the key, there is
a hadith of the Prophet, and also said by
Imam Ali: ``do not make your stumochs the
graveyard of animals``. -altaf
http://www.wco.com/

Dear Saad:

Thanks for the very thoughtful response. You wrote: (“...I feel no compulsion to establish the relationship, if any, between Islam`s five pillars and human health. I accept Mohammed’s contention that there is an omnipotent Allah who has revealed His message through the Quran...”)

No one can argue with faith. If that is your only argument, I have no response except to bow to your contentions and completely respect your prerogative. However, you cannot bring reason and logic into faith, for if you do, it becomes a ‘slippery slope’ and there is no stopping mid-way. My argument is only with those who basically operate on a priori faith and yet attempt to rationalize it and pretend that there is scientific validity to their rituals and beliefs. In other words, if you try to live by logic, you must be prepared to die by logic.

Your points about Hajj being a risk which people prefer to take because of spiritual motivations is well taken. Only, I think, it is selfish and inhumane to expose minor children to hazardous activities because of adult whims. As adults we can decide which risks we prefer to take and which we do not. We are free, for example, to bungie-jump, skydive, hang glide or go to Hajj, but I think it is unethical to expose our children to the same. As for driving a car, we are all cursed by this pandemic of the 20th century: May Allah Almighty relieve us from this scourge of Detroit.

I also agree with your contention about alcohol use. To my knowledge, it is only the popular tabloid media that concluded that people should start drinking alcohol for its cardiovascular protective qualities. The little that I have seen of epidemiological studies on the subject, no one ever recommended beginning alcohol consumption as a means to coronary disease prevention. Surly, Saad, you were being facetious and asking a rhetorical question. (As an ancillary to this point let me add that the Quran also states that alcohol has a “few benefits, but many more ills” and thus strongly urges avoiding it.)

On the issue of circumcision, again, I will not argue your faith, but would like to question the science. Once again, I am at a disadvantage, not having full-text articles for the references you quote. Let’s leave the scientific issue open for the moment. I would like to get back to you with actual data.

I do wonder, if perhaps the devout in this forum will cut me some slack if I were to invoke one of the patent arguments that many of our brothers and sisters love to make on a wide range of subjects? Of course, I am talking about the ubiquitous `Jewish Conspiracy`. It just so happens that on this issue (circumcision) we have a convergence of interests with the world Jewry, so we fail to take note of THIS conspiracy. Has no one ever suggested that the Jewish medical researchers have `doctored` such studies as support this genital mutilation practice? :))

You wrote that circumcision (“...was good enough for the Prophet, so it`s good enough for me (and my future sons, if any)...”)

I am curious to know how far does this logic extend? Do you arbitrarily pick and chose (“what’s good for Pr M is good for me”) or do you follow it all the way through to the end? Obviously you don’t follow it all the way or you’d be ridding camels and drinking their milk, eating lots of dates, climbing nearby hills and hanging around caves, etc., etc., for after all, if it was good for HIM, its good for you too, or is it? :)


Re: Anita Zaidi
(“...a fairly simple study to assess the hazards, if any, of roza, would be to retrospectively compare the prevelance ... among fasters vs. non-fasters...”)

This comment has triggered a thought: The Framingham Study!!

The data is already there, it can be done inexpensively. All that needs to be done is to look and see if there was any significant number of Muslims in the population, and if some of them were also regular roza observers? The sample size would not have to meet minimum requirements. If it turns out that there were enough Muslims, bingo!

My initial thought was that only a Prospective Follow-up study design could conclusively address this issue, but looking at prevalence in a retrospective case-control study -- excellent idea -- will be cheaper and easily done, albeit with some limitations. A case-control study (perhaps a matched-pairs model) can be designed and would make a good Master’s project. Renal calculi may not be the end-point worth studying unless you do a Prospective Follow-up study. In a retrospective study I’d ONLY look at non-symptomatic sub-clinical (such as abnormal blood chemistry profiles) pathophysiological derangements, because otherwise we’ll run into selection bias and confounding factors. This is a problem with retrospective data-sets, unless great care is taken in designing the study. Since symptomatic sickness will remove people from observing ‘roza’, our sample will exclude those roza observers that become sick (they will no longer be roza observers) and thus create a selection bias in favor of unusually healthyroza observers because we will only be left with the healthiest sub-set of the population.

I’d love to see some studies done that silence the speculations. Do you think we could get the Saudis to fund it? :)

...SR

Re: SR

My response got lost somewhere. Will have to redo it later. Bummer!

AZ

My whole hearted agreement. This Eid is too red, meaty and plain glutonous. I wonder why we sacrifice animals to show belief in God. Can gluttony be ever legitimate