Sex Everywhere

very sad.
one thing is proved by your article ,the sex is the strongest tool to keep the life runing.
you didn`t mention the sex in animals and birds.That is also interesting.

New Translation Puts `Kamasutra` in new Light

Wed Mar 27,12:32 PM ET

By JILL LAWLESS, Associated Press Writer

LONDON - More than 1,700 years after it was completed by an enigmatic Indian scribe, the ``Kamasutra`` is among the most famous Hindu books ever written — and, many believe, the most misunderstood.



Most who have encountered the book recall it as a do-it-yourself sex manual, an eye-opening encyclopedia of acrobatic positions.

Academics hope a frank new translation will help the ``Kamasutra`` — which means ``a treatise on desire`` — shake its saucy reputation and regain its status as a literary classic.

``It`s by far the most complete and interesting work about sexual psychology that has been written — a cross between `The Joy of Sex` and `Lady Chatterly`s Lover,``` said Wendy Doniger, who translated the book from the original Sanskrit with psychoanalyst Sudhir Kakar.

``The great misconception is that it is about the positions, which is the silliest part of the book, and a very short part of the book,`` she added.

``Kamasutra`` was released today in Britain and Oxford University Press will hit bookstores in the United States in June.

Written probably in 3rd-century Northern India by Vatsyayana Mallanaga, ``Kamasutra`` catalogs sexual positions, enumerates the varieties of kissing and expounds on the amorous role of scratching and biting.

But it also tells readers how to flirt, conduct a lovers` quarrel, seduce someone else`s spouse and blend potions to stimulate a sagging libido.

It even advises a woman on ways to dump an unwanted lover: ``She talks about things he does not know about. She shows no amazement, but only contempt, for the things he does know about. She punctures his pride.``

With its aphoristic advice on attracting, satisfying, keeping and shedding a partner, the book is often more ``Sex in the City`` than sex manual.

``It is always said to be a book about man`s manipulation of women, but a great deal of it is about women`s manipulation of men,`` Doniger says. ``It`s really about power, politics and sex.``

Doniger, who teaches the history of religion at the University of Chicago, says the ``Kamasutra`` has been ill-served by its best-known English translation, completed in 1883 by British writer-explorer Sir Richard Burton.

Doniger says Burton`s language is ``Victorian and flowery,`` while the original Sanskrit is direct and robust.

``The Kamasutra is punchy, Hemingwayesque — `he touches her here, she bites him there,``` Doniger said.

``Burton uses the Hindu words `lingam` and `yoni` to refer to the sexual organs. These words are not in the original text. ... Burton takes all the ambiguity out, and makes it sound like some weird `Orientalist` thing, whereas the book is about us.``

The new Oxford Classics edition is noticeably more direct than its Victorian predecessor. What Burton calls ``supported congress,`` the new book terms ``sex standing up.``

The two editions agree, however, on the ``lotus`` position and the gymnastic embrace called ``splitting the bamboo.``

That kind of exotic eroticism has made ``Kamasutra`` the bane of generations of parents and teachers, and the book remains controversial. Indian-born director Mira Nair`s 1996 film, ``Kamasutra — a Tale of Love,`` loosely based on the book, was stalled for more than a year by Indian censors before finally being screened.

Doniger says the book`s reputation has obscured its value as a work of literature. She says it can be read as a play in seven acts, following its male and female protagonists from seduction through separation, and as an idealized portrait of a sophisticated, monied society.

``No one in this book ever goes to the shop, no one ever goes to see his mother. All you do all day is plan for the night and get ready for it,`` she said. ``Its like a Playboy Mansion life.

``Training parrots and mynah birds to talk and going to cockfights, what sort of food and liquor to serve at a party — the life of pleasure is beautifully evoked. But a lot of it is about men and women in ways that have not changed.

``It`s an enormously complicated book on the psychology of sex, the psychology of erotic arousal.``

And those illustrations — they were added much later.

``They`re an afterthought,`` Doniger said. ``A very famous afterthought.``

___

On the Net:

Oxford University Press: http://www.oup.co.uk/isbn/0-19-280270-4

i agree to what is mention. i have lived, work, studied in USA, England and Pakistan.

As public health doctor, aids and sex diseases and drugs/substance abuse , nutrition and maternal and child and human rights and mental health educator .

Read what i send to UNICEF:

To All Health Care Providers of World and Human Beings:

I like to ask Health care providers of Pakistan. Especialy Doctors to stop sexual abuse/harrasment of young girls/women in hospital/clinic/hostel/surgical theatre.

i am witnes and saw my self muslim pakistani doctors having sex with , schoolgirls(10-15); college girls(14-18);

university/medical/engineering college girls and women(15-25). they also harres them, take their clothes off during

physical examination ( to see them nude and fondle their breast) When young and beautiful girl/women come they even

through deception have gang rape them.

doctors are responsible to transmit Hepatitis(HBV/HCV) sex diseases and even HIV in Pakistan and i think it must

have happen in other parts of world. i like if those who have abused and unicef and lawful agencies should get these

doctors punished as most go unpunished.

one time i saw three college girls( white dress)in boys hostel/dormitory, as they came out of room ,i was astonished . as

i kow the medical student who live there, i in evening ask why these young virgin college girls were here? he said,`` We

all 3 girls and him played polo game of sex``. Can you think one medical student( 20-22 years) deflowering three virgin

college girls (15-18 years). dont you tink he can infect them with hepatitis as he is a womenizer

As i try to report but no body want to fight with these doctor criminals and still it happens and now they even have sex

with female medical students and at times young female unmarried and married doctors.

please do ask govt., to stop this as it is spreading AIDS and stds in pakistan and globally.

Public health consultant

dr ali imran

Email:

saliimran@hotmail.com

Its easy to criticize Pakistan and whats happening there, why don’t we draw a comparison with some of the more developed countries in the world. This doesn’t mean that I am trying to justify what happens in Pakistan, all I am trying to say that the situation is not pertinent to Pakistan only, we only tend to make it look more bleak there.

What an eye opener...

Its sad that so few of us who grew up there or visited know so little of the secrets of the dark allys behind our own bungalows.

What are you trying to convey in your article ?

Everybody knows that these king of activities have been continuing even in the deep past. Please help me clear up my mind ....

Sex in our society, Sex in Islam and the hypocrisy of our society!

Congratulations to INITIATE the communication on this vacuum in our minds, in our conduct and in our society! Thanx to what? Our religion? NO! Thanx to our cultural upbringing, ignorance and the pseudo naik parveen attitude of our society, which allows sex everywhere, as entailed in this article, which condones sex as ``student life kae mashghaley`` in the most pathetic excuse I ever heard, it accepts marrying off their daughters to those very students, but will run amok if a girl speaks of ``hush…. that disease``, called AIDS! No, I am not exaggerating, I hardly could believe my ears, when a literature graduate mother, of educated background hushed her then medical student daughter into silence while we were discussing about HIV and AIDS, telling her ``ek to tum be dharak is bimari ka naam laeti ho, kuchh to khyal karo!``

As pointed out in some excellent responses to this article, Sex is hushed and curtained off to the bedroom and speaking about it is a sin, accredits a loose character and well, I could go on echoing all those remarks, already expressed.

Grown up in the west, being educated in the normal public schools and experiencing the era when sex education was introduced in the curriculum of German schools, I could follow the conservative attitude of our society, but what shattered my respect for our society was the hypocrisy as pointed out above. In the West I knew what people thought, you knew who is sexually active or at least you knew how they think of it and thus also protect yourself in some way from it. Boys knew I wouldn`t date, so I wasn`t asked. In Pakistan, you couldn`t guarantee and know where the person would have been around, the very person you may end up marrying thru a proposal ``with good and respected family background and bright future`` I would have loved to see the faces of people, if a girl would have asked him to get his HIV test done before saying yes, let alone his attitude towards family planning or contraceptives!

Can we endorse this hypocrisy as a society? As Muslims or even with our secularist attitude, which means nothing more, than that the belief is only between God and the human being, the very concept of the Qur`an only in a slightly different perspective. (ch4310ag@usa.net, if u like to discuss on this)

I can`t accept this ignorance and hypocrisy, neither as a Muslim nor as a responsible citizen of any society, be it ANYWHERE in the world!! I thus pondered over this hypocrisy and found many answers, which collectively I would title as ``ignorance and uneasiness of expression with respect to our sexuality, blindly following cultures and traditions, instead challenging it through education, as Muslim in the days of Muhammad (S) used to do``. They used to come up to him and ask and discuss issues pertaining to sexuality; shyness is indeed a virtue of a Muslim-male or female, but not in matters of knowledge or deen/concept of life (Islam). Any person, yes in fact even child who read the Qur`an and understand it, will come across the teaching pertaining to reproduction, creation, family life, sexual positions (Sura Baqara) and even ejaculation.

Sex is not a ``dirty word``, as per our cultural concepts; it is a gift of God to mankind. Islam provides a legal frame to enjoy this blessing from God, which is NOT only for procreation. The sexual urge should be enjoyed as His blessing, but within a commitment. Contrary to some religions and philosophies, Islam doesn`t degrade Sex to the status of `` lust of flesh, thus sinful, which the soul has to conquer. In fact exercised within the appropriate frame it is not only a source of emotional satisfaction and enjoyment, thence peace, but also a source of hasana is promised in return.

In this very light, we Muslims should emancipate ourselves in the light of the open minded and very modern concept of life-Islam, abrogating all those cultural and traditional influences, which only turn the wheel backwards.

Sex education should start at home or in the frame of Islamic Sunday/Friday Schools, wherever the possibility is given. It should however be actively supported through the participation and support, as well as objective answering to the questions through parents and may be elder siblings. In the Islamic Schools Muslim teachers, pref. Physicians should come forward and fill this vacuum. What should be taught? Anatomical and physiological aspects, table of puberty, along with the physical changes, need for family life, Sexual drive, menstruation and pre menstrual syndrome, conception and development of the child/foetus, contraception and then also the STD`s and the Islamic concepts of it. The emotional, mental and social aspects of puberty should be discussed, moral, social and Islamic ethics of Sexuality should be brought forth and in the western hemisphere tell them how to avoid peer pressure.

Preferably premarital counselling should be conducted, including Sex education. Scholars prefer Sex education in separate classes, contrary to the model in Iran, as described somewhere. We should however not forget the potential of marital counselling along with sex education in marital life.

Wee need to grow out of the traditional baggage and pressure, which we carried along with us for centuries, malpractising the most modern concept of life, if we only gave ourselves the chance to understand it. The potential is enormous, we only need to take up the challenge and give ourselves the chance, thus abrogating this hypocrisy in our society of which we ourselves-me and you, are a part.

A proper Sex education may not only be an effort against this hypocrisy and a potential towards amore natural attitude to sex, but also help to fight a very grave crime child sex abuse. It could happen to your child, get involved and prevent it, fight it!

your article is very true why wouldnt it be because the Day of Judgement i.e Qiyamat is very near n all this is the signs which were to happen before the real big clamities fall on us ,as muslims we should pray to Allah that He save us from the temptings of shaitan because shaitan makes us think that this is the only life n we should do what ever we can n no one is looking but we forget the Great Being Who brought us into this world n Who knows what a black ant is doing in the black mountain n what the ppl r even thinking in their hearts Allah is just watching n His Angels r just writing down what ever we r doing n then soon on the day of judgement all will be revealed n ppl will be judged according to their actions in this world

All i am saying is that no one is perfect n without sin but if we pray to Allah n repent sincerely then Allah Subhanaowatala will forgive us inshAllah

enjoy life but with remembering Allah n praying

TO WHOM IT MAY CONCERN:

Even though this report by Richard Galpin is old news by now, it will always stay relevant:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/south%5Fasia/newsid%5F248000/248219.stm

Another one of the practices of sexual abuse that exists in Pakistan, as some of my high school class mates boasted about personally indulging in at some point in time, is teenage boys having ``consensual`` sex with their naukranis - sort of an extension of the slave-girl syndrome!

Interesting Note:

One doesn`t have to hear all the existing latifas on the subject to realize that homesexuality is actually kind of like celebrating one`s masculinity if one happens to be on the ``top`` a.k.a mard ka baChCha! It`s when you`re a bottom that all hell (and maybe some bowels) break loose!

Punjab Special:

Do all those news-clips/surKhiyaN about women being dragged in the streets of *put in your favorite town/locality * after their clothes have been torn to pieces, on the premise of some grievances against the victims` family at-large, simply not register?

khulla khao tay nuNga nahao,

maTha

What is it about s-x that fascinates us all? After all, S-x is nothing new or unusual to the human race or the other species of animals that share the planet with us. It seems the people who run the Chowk decided that re-posting this article after a few months was a good idea. So clearly s-x has commercial value. S-x Sells has long been the catchword of the movie industry.

Pakistanis have long adopted an ostrich like attitude towards s-x, so much that in our daily lives in Pakistan it can aptly be described as, “See no S-x, hear no S-x.” We try not to discuss it and go to lengths to cover up its existence. What are we afraid of? Why are we afraid of it? Are we afraid of the primordial urge that threatens to overpower and destroy everything that gets in its way? Are we afraid that this deep rooted passion in nature (also known as LUST) cannot be controlled? Is this why women must be locked up? Our society only tolerates sex within the confines of the chardivari and the marital bed for purposes of procreation. But, this is a denial of human nature (which never mandated monogamy), for s-x is a completely natural act unfettered by social cum religious restrictions developed over time. The human reproductive system and sexual organs were designed for round the year mating. There are sound biological reasons why nature has made it more difficult for a women to achieve an orgasm in the course of a single sexual act, with a single male (unless he really knows what he’s doing, and is a very uncharacteristically unselfish male). If the man does not make a deliberate effort to satisfy his female partner’s desires, he ends up with a sexually frustrated female and a poor marriage. In Pakistan, a woman is supposed to be an almost asexual creature. No outward expression of sexuality or even sensuality is tolerated by society. Are we afraid of a woman’s libido? Everyone knows men want s-x from the ages of 14 and up, but what about women? Does anyone care about what they want?

Everyone has secret desires and fantasies, denying they exist leads to mental and emotional problems in life. Sexual fantasies ought to be encouraged as a means of escape rather than condemned as deviant. 98% of men masturbate in life. So what? Most women can get more pleasure from masturbating with their clitoris than through vaginal intercourse. That is very threatening to the fragile male egos that Pakistani men carry around with them (Just read Tehmina Durrani’s account of her marriage to G.M Khar in “My Feudal Lord”).

It’s a common enough sight, a woman in a black Burqa with a wailing new born in her hands, letting it suckle at her breast in public, which you catch sight of as you laughingly pass by in your air conditioned car. You laugh all the more loudly at this spectacle because it defies all of society’s attempts to hide it from your eyes, under an all encompassing Burqa, which nevertheless your eyes glimpsed through for an instant. Well, its just like all those National Geographic Pictures of the Amazon Indians in their serene and peaceful surroundings, bare assed and bare tited! But not even remotely sexy! (At least in my opinion).

So, What is Sexy? Is it by definition the forbidden fruit, the stolen glances, the hint of unbounded passion rising from deep within the busom of a modestly dressed dupatta clad female? Is it the allure of the bright lights on the catwalk and the accompanying greasy pole used by writhing strippers in their acts? Is it a girl in a bikini on the beach? Is it the bare flesh that excites you or is it the fantasies of your imagination? Or is it the forbidden nature of the act itself? For some, watching a mujra is titillating enough. Are u a secret voyeur? Do u like to watch? Does it turn you on? There is a famous saying about what most men want their wives to be, “a lady in the living room, a maid in the Kitchen, and a whore in the bedroom.”

Someone related the following tale to me. On returning home with his Bride after their Wedding in Karachi, the bride & groom were left alone to their privacy in their bedroom. A few hours later, at about 4:00 am, a clearly distraught groom emerged from the bedroom, and walking into the living room, wherein he found his mother, sitting on the couch (for no one sleeps in a Shaadi Ka Ghar), sat down at her feet, buried his head into her lap and cried out, “Amma Mujh say nahinh ho raha” repeatedly! The whole household was astounded at his audacity.

The next morning his cousins (perhaps shamed at his perceived lack of masculinity/virility) went down to the local video store and rented 4-5 x-rated pornos. They then sat him down in front on the T.V & VCR and gave him a crash course in sex education, naturally since the video was made in the West, the highlights of this crash course probably included group s-x, sodomy, S&M and other “deviant” practices.

The Upshot of this was that the following day, upon waking up at about 10:00 am , this very same gentleman strode confidently out of his bedroom, and in a loud, self-satisfied voice demanded, “Khana Lao, bohat bhook lagee hai!”

The moral of this hilarious story is two fold a) If you’re too much of a straight and narrow type (the type who always obeys one’s elders & attends Friday prayers conscientiously), you may find yourself the object of both pity/humiliation at your lack of “experience”, and b) Sweeping s-x under the rug by Islamic society actually encourages the proliferation of the forbidden/deviant forms of sex. If you think education is expensive, try ignorance!

In Iran the Ayatollahs agreed long ago that family planning was essential, and now all couples to be married are required to attend a family planning & Sexual education course before they are given a marriage license. They are required to attend the course together, prior to marriage. It works, the birth rate has come down dramatically from the days of Khomeni.

I have heard of husbands who force their virgin wives to watch pornos on their wedding night and then reenact the acts depicted therein. Most of those acts are probably UnIslamic, but this is what passes for S-x Ed in the Islamic Republic of Pakistan.

A little known fact about Pakistan is that bestiality exists on a wide scale. (Yup, some Pakis like to f--k goats etc, and this is known internationally). Its certainly no surprise that in a sexually repressed and segregated society, situational homosexuality is also widespread.

AIDS and other STDs are spreading fast in Pakistan. Save yourselves! Learn how to use a Condom, and get rid of all the hangups you have about s-x because life is short and you only live once!

Assalamu alaikum, That was a very well written article. And im 100% sure that it was true. Well most of these replies and counter replies have basically stated everything i could think of so i think i`ll just talk about something else now ;)

I saw a lifetime special on a womens shelter called Dastak (i believe) and it dawned upon me that pakistan is the most twisted country ive ever been to, and next time i go there, I`m going to do some investigating :) Btw, even if Man and Woman are accused of Zina, chances are that the man will recieve less punishment than the woman, if not nothing

Take care

Javed

dear AA

i have just finished reading uor article and symphatize with all those girls who have suffered at the hands of these men. i pray that one day its all going to change and some of us(men) who r making the lives of women miserable will meet their horrible fate.

sund1

(fahd ali)

u980044@mailsvr.giki.edu.pk

cactus124@hotmail.com

Looks like the discussion does not stop on this article (written almost an year ago!). Clearly the author has touched upon something deeply troubling/interesting to all of us.

Everything written in the article has been happening not only in the region but also all over the Islamic world. Its only a matter of how rampant it gets. Sometimes a society becomes more conscious of whats happening around it and specially the media plays a major role in this. There were times like the Zia era when the censorship on both print and electronic media was so intense that even mentioning rape and sex was considered a big taboo. Lately we have seen that the media specially the print media has increasingly become open in discussing issues like rape and homosexuality rather they sometimes find such stories commercially more viable.

The recent incident in NWFP where a police constable shot his young male lover with his official gun on refusing to oblige the constable got so much publicity in our press and even intricate details were discussed. Likewise the Clinton- Lewinsky details were translated in Urdu and published in full detail by one of the mainstream Urdu dailies in Lahore.

Its not that that incidents like the NWFP constable one did not happen earlier but they were not given such widespread coverage.

If you study the history of Mughals there were kings and ministers who openely practised homosexuality and they used to have both female mistresses and male `londas` and some of the more liberal historians have discussed them.

To make a long story short I would say that rape sex and homosexuality like any other society or culture are also a part of out Pakistani society but people dont want to discuss them and I think thats the beauty of our society. You may call it hypocricy or whatever but on the surface atleast we are an Islamic society and the innocent young minds do not get to read such horrid details about rape and same sex lovers. Let it be like this and for everyone like the author who want to explore and dig deep in such issues...let them find out and be content with their dramatic findings.

I Am SHOCKED..! I really Am.... i never KNEw that PAKI$Tan had All these PEOPLe with All these SEXUAL Problems Leave alone all the OTHER F...d UP problems From CRIME to POLITICAL Loot MAar..!

...GOD HELP U$ HELP OURSELVE$....!!!!!

WELL WRITTEN. ALL THAT HAS BEEN WRITTEN IS TRUE. THE FACT IS THAT MEN IN PAKISTAN HAVE ALWAYS USED ISLAM AS A SHIELD TO PROTECT THEMSELVES, AND THE WOMEN WHO HAVE BEEN SUBJECTED TO SEXUAL ABUSE, HAVE ALWAYS DECLINED TO REPORT SUCH INCIDENTS OUT OF SHAME. WELL, WHAT IS VIRGINITY; ``A BIG ISSUE ON A SMALL TISSUE``.

KEEP WRITING

I left Pakiland in `73 and even back then what you talk about was a common occurance. We all tended to look the other way as this was not the `thing` to do. Neither was smoking Hashish or drinking Bhang. Only the `low class` people do it, our elders told us. But we knew otherwise. Our chums were all into this, and into popping `ROCKETS`!!

Sex is a natural instint in humans. It is society and religion that want us to see otherwise!

Re: Sabrina

Good to see you on Chowk again, too! :-) Where are all the other regulars??... Thanks for correcting Optimist`s fallacious assumptions about homosexuality and the spread of HIV. Actually, from the latest stats presented at the World AIDS Conference in Geneva last month, it appears that HIV is now spreading faster among heterosexuals in Third World countries than among homosexuals.

Re: Optimist

What Sabrina pointed out about your ``lesbian`` encounter is right on target. There are two types of homosexuality: SITUATIONAL homosexuality and CONSTITUTIVE homosexuality. Situational homosexuality occurs when otherwise heterosexually-oriented people are denied normal, healthy realtions with the opposite sex and can only find sexual expression with members of the same sex (as in prisons, hostels, all-boys or all-girls schools). I suspect this accounts for much of the homosexual behavior in Pakistan and other sexually repressive societies. CONSTITUTIVE homosexuality, on the other hand, is an innate orientation of the person in which the homosexual is naturally and exclusively attracted to members of the same sex even in the presence of healthy, open relations with the opposite sex. As a constitutive homosexual myself, I can tell you that I`ve only been attracted to members of the same sex ever since I can remember, despite growing up in the U.S. and having socially intimate relations with females since day one (and despite being dashingly handsome and the frequent object of heterosexual female affection! ;-)).

So, as Sabrina said, your friend may simply have been acting out her sexual feelings on the only available object (you) in the absence of males, or she may really have been gay. In either case, I would hope that as a scientist, you can understand the difference between the two types of homosexuality and not unfairly castigate homosexuals as the spreaders of AIDS and STDs.

Regards,

Kafir

Dear nrb, it seems that you are in a state of denial! When was the last time you went to Pakistan?? And if you live in Pakistan then I would suggest you to go and visit some of the prisons and hostels. If you find my experience shocking and disgusting, wait til you see that. The reported cases of AIDS in Pakistan have exceded beyond imagination and that`s no joke. Do you think HIV is transmitted from the air??!!

I do appologise that you were appalled at what I wrote but what can I say, welcome to reality!

I most definitely did not want to put you off your food but it did hit you, didn`t it? AS gross as it may sound, it was true. Realisation...that`s all I wanted to pass on

Anyway, being a scientist my concern is genuine and logical and I feel that people should think about it and try to do something since our scientists back in Pakistan are still working on Malaria and TB. HIV and othere STD are nowhere in the list!

IT SEEMS YOU WANTED TO WRITE SOMETHING WITH LOT OF SEXY STORIES WHICH COULD ATTRACT PEOPLE`S ATTENTION.I SINCERELY FEEL THAT ENCOUNTERS YOU HAVE MENTIONED ARE NOTHING BUT YOUR OWN IMAGINATIONS.YOU HAVE GROSSLY EXAGGERATED THE WHOLE ISSUE. BUT ,IF WHAT YOU SAY IS RIGHT,WHY NOT CHANGE THE NAME OF THE COUNTRY FROM PAKISTAN TO SEXYISTAN.

It`s a shame but it`s true and I only found out when I went to Karachi last year. After studying for 6 years in London, I finally decided to move back to Pakistan and spent around 6 months before I moved to the US. While I was there, I started hanging out with this girl who was very bright, smart and confident and I really liked her. We became very good friends in a very short time. We went out a lot together and spent a lot of time shopping, eating out etc. One day she turned around, kissed me on my lips and said she loved me! I kissed her back, told her I was ``straight`` and that I was getting married, being a woman to a man! We both were shocked for our own reasons!

I never believed in ``homosexuality in Pakiatan`` til I saw one, in fact experienced one myself.

So, it`s happening and it`s happening fast among 18-30 year old people. In a hypocritical society like ours, it`s no surprise but what`s going to happen when hospitals will have more patients with AIDS then just Influenza or Malaria??!!

The writer has aptly portrayed the hypocritical nature of our society which on surface never stops preaching about its ``pureness`` as compared to the West, but prefers to ignore the hard realities. I appreciate the writer`s efforts for bringing this critical issue for discussion.

Instead of making the water muddy by asking for so-called STATISTICS on every matter (as is being suggested by a fellow reader who just believes in FACTS and FIGURE to accept an argument), I think we need to follow our observation of society by keeping our eyes open to reach conclusions on this matter.

We should understand that this issue of rampant sex in Pakistan is a social (or moral?) one, not belonging to the field of economics for instance, thus exact statistics can never be obtained to support an argument in the society of our which prides itself in concealing such activities. How can you get statistics about the rate/incidences of pre-marital or extra-marital sex, or for that matter that of wife rapes by husbands in Pakistan? Gang-rapes are seldom reported what to talk about homesexuality or paedophilia. I am sure never can a study to gather figures on sex related issues be accurate enough to become an authority to be referred to. Talks of statistics won`t make women in Pakistan respectable equals in heavily prejudiced society of our. Neither would it increase abysimally depressed status of women.

Sex is everywhere but we are not ready to accept this fact. Rather the veil of concealment is furher complicating the situation. Lets start talking about this aspect of Pakistani society. Closing our eyes won`t do away with it. Lets stop pretending that we are a ``sex-free`` nation unlike the ``free-sex`` countries of the West.

{Jehanzeb}

This article you have written is very confusing and does not make sense at all or especially to me. First the title of your article is sex everywhere and after this you go and support the title by devising the group sex into different parts and then justifying each part by giving one single example or even not by any example. None of your examples are supported by any facts such as statistics, records, comparison e.t.c. which makes your argument sex everywhere very fallacious. Since your examples in your argument is not based on actual facts but are only based on your authority to the reader and are also supported by only one example of each case. You have made up a pretty big hasty generalization based on your conclusion sex everywhere.

For somebody to make a strong claim like sex everywhere you have to prove that sex is actually everywhere. In order to do so you have to compare sex related problems. You can make this comparison by the help of statistics or by the comparison of different societies and cultures with Pakistan s. These statistics are available on all types of subjects such as divorce rates, pre marital sex, single parents, e.t.c. Also if you state these examples without any facts and just on your experience while your three months stay in Pakistan it certainly is not going to be persuasive at all. Also, your authority to make these statements are unqualified since three months are not enough to judge a culture and a society as a whole.

You might want to shed some light on the culture of Afghans before making any judgments about them. Such as that they are extremely poor, have to pay up till eight to ten lakh rupees before getting married and pre-marital sex with a woman is quite impossible. Since they are poor they cannot get married till very late ages. Thus the only option for their sexual satisfaction till these late ages is by gay means. Without exploring these premises you are ignorantly making claims about these people.

In the second example of the police surgeons office, you say that the young girl is going to have her virginal exam to check whether she is still a virgin or not. If she is proved not to be a virgin she will be charged with charges of adultery which is a pretty serious charge and she will be punished for that. This therefore proves that pre-marital sex is a pretty big offense in the country and if somebody is caught in doing it, the person he or she can face harsh consequences. According to this pre-marital sex is taboo, offensive, not accepted by the society and it is restricted by the law, so that it is not encouraged. Therefore it does not prove that sex is everywhere but does prove that pre-marital sex is restricted thus your cause in this example is just opposite of your conclusion.

Your next example is of seven sex workers and their pimps who are caught red handed. Your example states that prostitution is illegal and is a very serious crime. The seriousness of this crime can be judged by their pictures being posted on a news papers front page. Also you state that when one of the prostitutes asked for a glass of water she was refused because of the disrespect the police woman had for her. Now imagine if a police woman who has so much experience of crime(including sex related crime), who works with men and has so much exposure to the worst of the Pakistani society has such disrespect for her how much disrespect will the rest of the society have for prostitution. Therefore since the society disrespects prostitution and the law does not allow it cannot be concluded at all that sex is everywhere.

In the next example I would like to ask you a question that why do college students have to act in secrecy and privacy. If pre-marital sex is everywhere and is accepted by the society and the law then why not just operate openly. I would like to ask you another question if the boys acted in so much secrecy and privacy than how do you know about all this was going on or you just made it up or you were told about this by some shopkeeper or some sweeper of the neighborhood. You should not believe in the authority of some shopkeeper or sweepers made up story(and with a lot of spices added up to it) and publish it on the internet. If you just made it up or you believed in someone s unqualified authority this is just morally incorrect since it falls in the category of a lie. You should not post something like this up until it is based on factual incident and you should be able to back this up with proof. Without facts it is just based on your or someone else s unqualified authority.

Again your next example is logically irrelevant to the conclusion. A woman who wears Burka and engages in pre-marital sex with her boyfriend and gets into serious trouble. This does not prove that pre-marital sex is everywhere and everybody is doing it. Instead it proves the opposite that if somebody in the country engages in pre-marital sex gets into a lot of trouble.

Ruqaiyya s story and the story you explained in the second last example of rape and physical abuse are of a atypical sample and thus do not prove anything. And all it does is make you commit a hasty generalization. If you want to prove something over here you have to base it on physical statistics. Rape and physical abuse happens in each and every country of this world this is nothing new. Also I would like to mention that 85% of the women in the country are illiterate, most of them don t work and have little or no sense of entertainment. Thus one big source of entertainment for them is sex and thus they look forward to having sex and enjoying sex with their husbands. Thus the notion you have that every woman in Pakistan is physically and sexually being abused by their husbands is incorrect.

After reading the paragraph about hijras I ought to say that that the taxi driver and the young boy are idiots. These guys are not gays besides the boy is also young and rich. They want to have sex with a woman to satisfy their sexual desires but instead end up with a hijra . The only way it makes sense to me is that sex is not common and hence is difficult to get in the country.

About the servant girl rape again you haven t proved anything. Rape goes on in every society of this world. So if you want to prove something over here base it on facts and statistics.

Now by the time I reach the end of your article I am really confused. In the last paragraph you are claiming that woman of Pakistan are really disloyal and in the second last paragraph you claim that woman in Pakistan are extremely loyal to their husbands no matter what even if their husbands are impotent. According to the actual statistics more than 95% of marriages work in Pakistan. Therefore it is true that most women are loyal to their husbands no matter what even if their husbands are impotent. A few might be disloyal but this is very rare. A women in a society like that cannot be disloyal. It is simply not accepted by the society.

The sex related problems you have mentioned have been going on throughout the history of human mankind in each and every society civilized or uncivilized of this world. These things even went on during the time of Prophet(PBUH). If these things went on even during the time of Prophet which is considered to be the most moral of the societies for Muslims than how do you expect that they don t go on in Pakistan. Therefore some of the things you mentioned in your article must be going on in Pakistan but they don t reflect the society as a whole.

This argument is a weak inductive argument. This is a weak inductive argument since the premises do not follow from the conclusion in such a way that it is improbable that the premise be true and the conclusion false. Besides being weak it is uncogent. It is uncogent since it is fallacious. It is fallacious since it has committed arguments of unqualified authority, hasty generalization, appeal to ignorance and so on. (Hassan Mansoor)

Amazing But It is all True and Pakistani Govt and Mullah still closing their Eyes and always thinking how to put all Ahmadies in Jail

Re: AM

``Women is created [sic] for various purposes, one of them is distraction or temptation - it`s totally natural that the physics of a woman is distracting...``

AM, this statement is extremely chauvinistic and completely baseless. Where did you get this absurd idea? Your religion, Islam, definitely does not endorse this point of view. According to your religion, women are created for the same purpose as are men: to know and worship the Creator and do good works. Your statement reflects a warped view of the world in which men are the center of the universe and women are their tools and property, where men make the rules and women obey them.

If you find women`s bodies distracting and tempting, then it is YOUR responsibility to curb your libido and focus your attention on other things. It is man`s shortcoming that he can`t control his sex drive, not woman`s. It is man that makes a woman`s body sexual and shameful, not woman. Cover your own lecherous eyes before you ask a woman to cover and fear her own body.

An old George Michael Song goes ... SEX IS NATURAL, SEX IS FUN, SEX IS BEST WHEN ITS 1 on 1. I encourage all of u to practice SAFE SEX. In Pakistan, and I was there just a few weeks back in Karachi for a month and a half, unsafe sex among the late teen/20 something crowd is growing. Guys think girls will be turned off if they pull out a condom at the last minute, it`ll ``kill the Romance``, and so high risk behavior is becoming common. The whole subject is so taboo, that 2 individuals have to meet secretly, and when they do meet, instead of just dating, the take it to the extreme, having Sex very quickly/early on in their relationship.

Interesting article. The only thing that bothers me is we don`t even have morles any more. I may be looked up on as liberal but as far as the sex is concerned its ok if you are willing to bear the consequences. Take the responsibility. We are such great liers. That makes me sad.

this forum is great, three cheers for those who founded this.

as to the subject at hand, i would like to suggest that the solution comes from islamic morality, as many would agree. but not just lip service `be good muslims`, we must re-examine our understanding of the issues islamically.

why is a girl commiting zina and a boy commiting zina different? it is in the minds of most, different. islamically, however, they are equal, subject to equal punishment, etc.

i noticed one reply saying that the answer `does not lie in western answers`, i agree. however, this person goes on to say that we should not be more `open` about sex. why, and who says so? sex is not `bad` or `good` in and of itself. why can`t we be more honest, yet within islamic limits - and not be obscene? people are even afraid to ask about marriage issues, what is halal and haram, and why it is such. islam has answers to such questions, descent answers.

such hush hush oppressed mentality is half the reason you see such perversion in society.

Allah knows best

I used to study in a prestigious instituition of NWFP. I didnot know until the final years of my tenure that homosexuality was a common practice on the campus. When someone raised his voice against it many heads fell. The article doesnot surprise me at all. BUT (in capitals) Please, please please don`t turn to west and there methods to solve that problem because they are even worse than us. Its not sex education in schools or talking about sex more openly or explicitly in media, which is going to help, look at the west, not in books but what really is going on there. We need to teach our children morals, not dish culture or the video indian culture. Need to teach and learn and act on Quran. AND Yes don`t give me examples of the so called MAULANAS and what they are doing, they don`t own Islam and Quran or the ways of prophet, they are the Ulema-a-soo as called by the prophet who will not go but to hell.

May Allah show us the right path.

The article `Sex Everywhere` is an eye-opener. One of the causes of our sexual mentality is the spread of nude literature and video films in our country. There is a law for punishing the culprits who are found in possession of such obscene materials but this law has never been properly implented. The govt as well as the nation is showing an ostritch like attitude.

It is common knowledge that nude video films are easily available in thousand of video shops situated in every nook and corner of the country. Our youth and children are being destroyed for small material gains.

The solution for this problem can only be found if the government as well as the public work together for the elimination of this curse. The government should take a very very severe action against the people who promote this sort of nasty stuff. At the same time the parents should also keep a very watchful eye on their children. They should, in the first place, bring up their children in such a manner that they are themselves capable of distinguishing between good and bad.

In short, it is high time that the nation rises for the elimination of nude films and literature form our society. Without cleaning our society from this nasty stuff, we can not hope that our youth will be able to do any service to the nation.

This site and the articles in it contain discource which should be heard by the country. To the editors and contributors of Chowk I encourage you to persuade and partner with a leading national urdu or english daily. The more citizens read this the more citizens they will become.

Media still has a lot of positive potential in Pakistan. What do you think?

Amazing and its all true.

There`s nothing new in this bit that would be surprising. What, however, is worth praising is that fact that someone has brought this issue into the public press. In Pakistan, the only thing close to free is press; the power of media should not be discounted, rather leveraged.

Now only if someone would translate the article in Urdu, so as to attract the attention of a larger audience. It is time that we openly talk about these practices, but also highlight the deseases that are a consequence thereof - may be this way we would slow the indulgence, if not stop it.

- Saboor

Although this is all true but I don`t think this came as a news to anyone, everyone knows what`s happening around them and all of this has become a part of our society now.

the statements are true, but they don`t

reflect the overall picture of the society.

You know until about 4 years ago, I also had no clue that sex had any place outside of the bedroom in Pakistan. My mother in law built a hospital in Lahore about three years ago and my wife went and stayed with her for about six months to help her. When she came back, she told me stories that I could not beleive. Young girls raped by their own brothers and fathers was an everyday occurence. Wives beaten and raped and even shared with buddies. Unbeleiveable!! Now I know why Pakistan is at the verge of collapse, moral collpse that is. May Allah help Pakistan.

I would be more than willing to help in inproving this disgusting obscenity in pakistan. Wouldn`t it be a good idea for someone to write something/suggestions about what to do/help to improve the plight of these perverts?

I read an article by ?AA? title ?Sex Everywhere? on the internet addition of Chowk. Even though, I do not doubt the realty or question the story I would like to remind the author that the language used was against the literally style of Journalism. To put it bluntly no one will put in words the relationship of mother and father or husband and wife as P---- and P---- etc., etc. Even though the article was good I was stunned by the language. It will be advisable fro the author and the editors keep in view the audience norms.

Syed T Jafri

One becomes skeptical of stories one hears of the pre-70`s and even of pre-80`s stories of elders and how they described the relative ease of male-female interactions which took place in the Islamic Republic of Pakistan. Skeptical because it is hard to believe in the light (or darkness) of today`s realities.

Regardless of the ``Justice and equality in Islam``, the opposite has happened. The General who blew up a few years back introduced the religion as one of his tools (and an extremely viscious and powerful one at that) to divide and rule the state. Islam was used to segragate the sexes (besides just about everything else) and thus in an illetrate society, reinforce stronger than ever, the patriarchical structures. The state sponsored segragation lead to the most ridiculous of laws. Besides the injust injunctions in the constitution (hudood laws, blasphemy laws etc.) the media too was cencored in the most obscene of manners- i.e a husband and a wife could not be shown in a PTV drama to be sitting on a double bed in their bedroom. They had to have two separate single beds, said the general who blew up`s religion`s minister Raja Zafar-ul-haq (today he is again the minister of religion ordering the PTV managers to not show, among other things, any ice-cream commercials in which a female is actually licking an ice-cream cone- I seriously question- who is more perverted- the masses or the person/s legislating this vulgarity). Now it`s no wonder the generation that was to come out of the 80`s was obviously going to be a perverted one. It`s sad to see that even today, Islam is not kept out of the corridors of power and is continuously used to batter the already battered psyche of the people. In the book ``Shame``, Salman Rushdie states rightly, in his description of Gen. Zia`s era, on when religion is continiously and unecessarily fed to the people: ``what happens if one is force-fed such outsized, indegistible meals?- One gets sick. One reject`s one`s nourishment. Reader: one pukes...in the end you get sick of it, you lose faith in the faith, if notg qua faith then certainly as a basis for a state.`` (278).

Like Rushdie, many other Pakistanis had thought, that Islam could have united post 1971 Pakistan- if and only if the relgion was not tampered with so agressively.

What the Pakistani society today hyporcitically demands from itself is a moral ground higher than the Qur`aan itself. In fact, it would not surprise me if some members of pakistan`s ulema went to the extent of censoring certain chapters in the Qur`aan which obviously speak of male-female (sexual) conduct with ease.

-fraz

Does this really happen in Pakistan?

To tell you the truth, the content of the article didn`t surprise me at all. These incidents or horrifying stories actually reiterate the fact that a society must address its social and moral problems otherwise they erode the very fabric of life. I still remember reading such stories in Amnesty International and ``Slogan`` (HRCP magazine) in mid 80s and then in 90s. For example:

``A 60 year old woman was rapped by her

three nephews in Nawabshah.``

It is not only a taboo to talk about sex but also to talk about sex crimes. When they do happen, it is either ``hushed`` into silence by victim`s family (to avoid ``shame``) or criminals are never punished for their crimes. Justice is blind and rights are prerogative of wealth and stature in society.

Pakistan`s perceived ``morality`` represents our incapacity to come to terms with reality. In a society where sexual frustration goes beyond ethnic, sectarian and provincial boundaries, and could very well be defined as our national character. Where ``mullas`` still twist Hadees and strip Quranic verses out of their context to support their view and serve their interests. Where interaction between men and women is not only a taboo but can potentially tarnish someone`s character. It is not only unhealthy but extremely suffocating ...

In Pakistan sex education is the porno industry, the XXX film that a young boy indulges in. Sex education are Indian movies. Sex education for women is to play dead while men perform sex on them. Sex is something to have and not to share.

But for many in Pakistan, sex is also a means of procreation ... an expression of love and respect. Pakistan is not full of sexual perverts otherwise we would not be able to voice our opinions like this. Most, not all, people who belong to that segment of the population will be either surprised to read this article or find it nauseating.

Sex is neither fabricated nor figment of someone`s imagination. It is real in Pakistan. It is either for lust or for sale. There are those who use it and those who abuse it.

But a more important question that I pose to the readers and the author is, ``what are you doing about it?`` While we have the freedom to comment on social problems, most of the population calls it their life. There is a difference between a social activist and being socially aware. What are we?

``Don`t find faults; find remedies`` ... a cliche indeed but extremely true. I, for one, want to be part of the solution or at least be one of those who want to wave the banner of change.

With deepest regards,

Maroof

P.S: I hope that the author would take time and contact those who want to do something more than just read an article and go back living their ``comfortable lives.``

Great Article! I was in Pakistan a couple of months and I saw similar things happening in the PAK, clean and pure society. What are we doing,

where are our morals? It is a shame.

PS : I will send aricles on related issues later

SD

Great to re-read this article.

So, where are all the good old Chowkwalas?

Salaam,

Judging from the number of replies, I am probably one of the last people to read this article. A very disturbing article indeed, not because of the way it was written but owing to the subject matter. I want to help in any way I can to better the situation in Pakistan. So, I would be grateful if the author would let me know how to get in touch with the organizations working in Pakistan on the said issue and how I could help. I make it a point to go home every year and thus can spend some time there as well as do something here to help the cause. As the author`s email address is not posted I have no way to contact her/him.

Mofeez

murtam@rpi.edu

What in hell are you talking about?

My Dear Friend AA,

Though the accounts you so vividly narrated evoke horror and terror, these abominable accounts in no way touch the real causes of these going ons in our society. Sex, marital abuse, and rape are present in every society. You will be surprised to know how many similar accounts grace the headlines in newspapers in the western world but you will also be surprised to know that all of these events are reported and are even shown on Television. What we need in pakistan is a similar setup and i am in no way hinting to those NGO`s and NPO`s that exist w/o any funding and are thus unable to do anything. What we need is a government-backed agency that is able to punish the sex offenders quickly and mercilessly to set an example to others. In America, a law was passed by the name of Miranda Rights which enables a neighborhood to know about the sex offenders that live in that neighborhood. While even such a harsh act has its merits and demerits, it puts forward the society`s no tolerance attitude towards sexual crimes.

We can continue to write articles that would make for interesting reading and tehy might raise the hair at the back of our neck, in some case, and might also bring nightmares in others, but unless and untill we form a strict policy against these crimes, another Ruqaiyya will get raped and many other amna`s and fatima`s will keep on suffering abuse.

So Mr. AA, take a humble request from another AA and point out the reasons why the human rights organizations are unsuccessful in Pakistan . I am unaware of these reasons and would be greatly obliged if you could help me out since you have obviously been exposed to such an organization. thanx and hope to hear from you soon.

Gender in Pakistan

It is indeed a sad state of affairs in Pakistan (an Islamic country) when a rape occurs approximately every three hours, women are denied equal educational opportunities in many areas of the country, (although in this case class undercuts gender identity), and equal opportunities for advancement in society exist more on paper than in practice for the vast majority of women in the country. The high birth rate in Pakistan signifies the lack of control women have over their own bodies. 100% female literacy, nothing less, must be our goal.

I believe it is instructive to look at the Chinese experience in this regard. In China, before 1949 women can be said to be truly oppressed, if anywhere in the world by patriarchal society. The customs of foot binding, arranged marriages, child brides, no right to petition for divorce and lack of property and inheritance rights, in addition to the fact that the average woman gave birth over ten times in her life, and wide spread female illiteracy were the lot of women.

After the 1949 revolution and the Marriage law of 1950, women achieved full legal equality of rights. Until 1976, Chinese literacy rates were above 90%. Women not only gained equal rights, they entered the workforce as equal and productive members of society. Acceptance in the workplace led to acceptance by men of social equality. This did not however occur by governmental fiat so much as by active participation in the work force and social reeducation.

Until and unless this occurs on a large scale, at all social levels, women will not achieve gender equality in Pakistan. Rights can be granted, but must be fought for to be acknowledged. China as a model is not of course perfect, there has been a drop in literacy rates after forced rural collectivization stopped, and due to its ``one child policy`` female infanticide is a major problem. Nevertheless, many of the problems in pre-communist China confront women in Pakistan today. It should be noted however, that Islam gave women the right to initiate a divorce, in the Seventh Century A.D, which contrasts sharply with any other society including the West where women obtained this well over a thousand years later. Furthermore, it was Islam that outlawed marriage without the consent of those being married. Women were no longer to be viewed as chattel, or the personal property of men, to be disposed of as they wished. They were given specific legal rights.

Lamenting the problems that exist today however, will not resolve them. Acknowledging that they exist is a step in the right direction. However, the question of how to address and rectify the problems that exist today can only be approached after identifying and accepting their root cause.

The root cause of these problems is the dominant patriarchal culture of Pakistan. It is negatively reinforced in practice by its misapplication of Islam. To illustrate my point, even some of the judges of the Lahore high court had some doubts in the Saima Waheed case as to whether an adult, a grown woman had the right to choose her own mate without the consent of a wali (a novel religious idea). Again, religion was used as a cloak by the patriarchal society (represented in this case by her father who was against the marriage) in its attempt to control and victimize women in Pakistan. It is only within this context that one can understand the backlash (including death threats) the judgement produced for Asma Jehangir, the lawyer who represented her in court.

It was not a religious backlash, for no one could seriously dispute that the innovation of the concept of wali was without serious basis in Islam, but rather, because of the fact that this courageous woman stood up to and threatened the dominant institution of patriarchy. Free choice marriage threatens the very base of the institution of patriarchy, for it as a corollary obviously includes the notion that besides a woman`s right to choose her own mate, there would have to be a rather freer mingling of the sexes for this to become an issue at all. It does not restrict a woman to simply choosing from a pool of pre-approved candidates carefully screened and selected by her parents.

Islam envisions an egalitarian society for all members of the community, with social justice for all. Unfortunately, the patriarchal culture has usurped the rights of women in practice by the gender biased application of the religion to the detriment of women`s rights.

It is true that in the legal realm, the testimony of two women is considered the equal of one male witness, this is inherently prejudicial to the conception of rights of women. Inheritance rights of widows and daughters are similarly not on a par with those of male heirs.

An apologetic argument can, and has been made in both these cases that:

•a) these rights represented an improvement for women in the 7th century A.D, •b) women get their share of inheritance in the form of dowry, which they take with them to their husband`s home.

It is also true that the birth of a son is celebrated, while that of a baby daughter is simply accepted (the saying goes, haan, yeh bhee Khuda ki daeen hai). (Trans. this TOO is a gift of G-D)

So called ``Islamic`` legislation by the modern nation-state today in the area of women`s dress and morality winds up giving patriarchal society too much power to enforce the simple guidelines articulated by the religion as rigid and eternal codes, thereby giving it a powerful weapon with which to control and dominate women.

It is useful to note that the custom of veiling was only introduced at the time of Walid II as a fashion for upper class women in the mid eighth century (A.D). It has little Islamic basis. At the time of the prophet (pbuh), men and women prayed in the mosques together. Only much later was the seclusion of women and men in the mosques introduced. This seclusion has over time turned into the virtual exclusion of women from the mosque, leaving the mosque as the exclusive domain on men.

Islam enjoins virtuous women to ``dress modestly``, this injunction was not meant to stifle their very humanity as living beings, as the Taliban have recently done in Afghanistan. It should also be remembered that Ayesha the prophet`s (pbuh) youngest wife used to ride into battle on a camel. There were other women including wives of the prophet`s companions who went about quite freely unveiled. One of them, when asked by her husband why she did so, replied,that G-D had put the stamp of beauty upon her face and that it pleased her that the world should see G-D`s grace upon it. In both these examples of women in early Islam it is clear that there were no hard and fast restrictions upon them, as the self-proclaimed ``moral guardians`` of today`s ``Islamic`` societies would impose on women, keeping them both confined to the house and outside the sphere of public life.

Women`s general seclusion, (defacto exclusion) from the mosques has also had singular political consequences. The mosque has never been an apolitical institution, and unlike Churches in the West, there has never been a clear delineation of mosque & state. Exclusion from public performance of religious duties has thus conferred an inferior political status to women in Islamic states for over a millenium.

Patriarchal society is singularly obsessed with the virginity of females, and it is not for religious reasons, but rather because male control over women and male pride are linked in patriarchal society to the chastity of their unmarried daughters.

Through restrictions on dress and sex, which women by and large have legitimated for religious reasons, patriarchy acquires the trappings of both legality and righteousness in an Islamic society. After that, it is only a matter of arguing on behalf of concern for the seclusion of women from the ``lustful`` eyes of men, and their manner of dress to discriminate against them in multifarious other ways. Women having conceded on sincere religious grounds are an easy mark for patriarchy which deprives them from developing to their full potential as human beings, as the role of mother is the only one it envisions for them. The idea of daughter as prayee ammanat, (property-held-in-trust) is yet another example of the insidious nature of patriarchy. Once the daughter has left the father`s house, any shame she may bring will be on her husband and in-laws, no more on him. It is the risk of shame in the community which makes patriarchal males petty tyrants in their own homes over their wives and daughters.

The solution to improving the lot of women in Pakistan is as simple as it is breath taking. We must follow the ideals of the Quaid-e-Azam (father of the Nation) and build a secular republic where religion is a private matter for the individual, thereby establishing legal equality between the sexes on the basis of citizenship, not religion, which has become the bastion of patriarchy in its dominance of women.

Islam is the religion of enlightenment, to fully appreciate the significance of the rights it granted to women one must view these in the perspective of seventh century Arabia to understand how truly revolutionary they were. That appreciation however does not and should not confine us today. The grant of specific rights at a specific time and place in history does not mean that women have no other rights except those enumerated specifically. As times have passed however, the institution of patriarchy has sought to limit women to those (hitherto revolutionary) rights only, and crippled their effective exercise of those rights as well. Indeed, it is the Spirit of the laws that is missing today in Pakistan. Unfortunately this is because of the monopolization of Islam by patriarchal & religious reactionaries (Those who cannot, and moreover refuse to see the forest for the trees). Thus a self-perpetuating morality and language of oppression is created.

The institutions of patriarchy have spent over 1,000 years (as long as there have been men, there has been gender discrimination) consolidating their positions, by whitling away at the very conception of the rights of women in Islam, and our only option (coupled with the fact that the gates of ijtehad have been closed for too long), must now be to conduct this debate on a different playing field, otherwise forever, the dominant patriarchal culture reduces the debate on improving women`s lot (be it in employment, personal freedom or other areas) to being held within a ``religious context``, i.e. on its turf, making any discussion of progress all but meaningless except in name.

You can e-mail OMAR MIRZA at OMAR1974@aol.com, ALWAYS willing to debate this issue.

Your article rings so true! Its an awful, sickening state of affairs but its true!
what infuraites me is the hypocrisy and stereotypes that poeple have come up with and religiously stick to. People with liberal ideas are labeled western, people especially females who actually use thier brain are labeled `taiz`` and ``azad``. Me and several of my friends fall in that ``category`` and I am so thankful for the way we are because we actually have morals that we understand and therefore stick to. I know several other so-called ``seedhee`` ``saadhee`` larkiyaan who had consensual sex with SEVERAL males, are busy in `ghardaari` now for some unsuspecting fellow.
Serves the `unsuspecting` people right for their hypocrisy and superficiality!
BTW, gayism in Islam?
being gay or straight is your choice, please dont insult Islam by twisting words to justify yourself. Sorry but there really is no place for you here. Its your choice and you opted for ``out``.End of story. Why do you feel the need to justify? Are you ashamed?
PS: Christianity and Judaism are also against gayism. I am forgetting the name of the state (US) where the christian faction was protesting on the day of the Gay march.

Your article made hair stand up in the back of my neck. It took a few minutes for me to recover from the strong no nonsense narrative.
This reaction in me truly caught me by surprise, esp.considering that I have come across innumerable victims and perpetrators of sexual abuse in my professional life.Perhaps it was the fact that it`s setting was , as you nicely pointed out, in that `asexual` society that I grew up in.
Please tell me a little bit about what agency you worked with, whats your professional back ground etc.

Re: Amin Saleh

Your arguments are truly for the ages... ages four to eight.

Sociologist Whitman studied several societies, both modern and primitive, from all over the planet. He observed primitive societies where homosexuality has always existed and been permitted as far as the members of those socities can remember, and discovered that it exists in the same proportions as in repressive societies, both primitive and modern. I, myself, have lived among the Hopi Native Americans who have always had an accepting attitude towards homosexuality. The percentage of homosexuals in that society is also comparable to the percentage found all over the world. So for you to say that ``permissive societies have recently sprung up and it is too early to comment on their effects on the society`` is factually incorrect.

As for the story of Sodom and Gomorrah, that is just your religious belief. There is no hard evidence that these cities actually existed or what percentage of their populations might have been homosexual.

Finally, when I speak of sexual `orientation,` I`m referring to a non-voluntary, immutable trait. I never said it did not have a genetic basis. On the contrary, it most likely does. Do not confuse `genetic` with `natural.` By your flawed logic, heterosexual orientation is not natural either. No genetic cause has been discovered for heterosexualty. Prove to me, then, that it is natural. You can`t. Case closed. Khattam-shud!

Kafir

You mentioned:

As sociologist Fred Whitman noted in the study mentioned above, the number of homosexuals appears with equal frequency in both repressive and permissive societies.

End Quote

Now I am not sure how far back in history Mr. Whitman has gone and what periods covered his analysis of repressive and permissive societies. In the modern age, I believe permissive societies have recently sprung up and it is too early to comment on their effects on the society.

Historically, Sodom and Gomorrah, an example of permissive society, the incidence of homosexuals were a lot more than 10%.

Finally, on your comment that ``it is an orientation (adaptation, acclimation, etc.),`` I take it to mean that your contention is that it is not genetic. If that is the case then the defence that homosexual is natural goes out of the window.

RE: ``albert einstein``

I wondered if I should honour your obviously facetious comment with a response... and then decided, what the hell, why not!

Can you please tell us how India and Pakistan can drop a nuclear bomb ONLY on the gays and lesbians of the two countries without causing untold damage to the rest of society?

Any hate-motivated prescription that you might have eventually causes social damage far and beyond the targets of short-sighted bigots -- just like nuclear bombs.

Think about that.

Regards,
BG

Thanks, Raaj.

Re: Umer Farouq

This discussion is becoming tiresome, but let me continue for the sake of clarity.

You write: ``You are talking about a threat to the human species in cases of incest. Well with homosexuality the species ends. No reproduction.``

Nobody is saying that everyone would become gay if homosexuality were accepted and that reproduction would subsequently come to an end. My whole argument is that homosexuality is an ORIENTATION, not something to be chosen, and so the vast majority of any society will never be homosexual. Please read my previous comments for further clarification. All I`m saying is that the small percentage of homosexuals that exists in every society (and will always exist) should be allowed to live lives free of persecution and with eqal treatment and rights under the law. Is that asking so much????

You continue: ``Also,if I rememeber right the so called `gay` gene is a recessive gene. Now given my Fsc biology that would mean that if a straight and a gay got married the child woulb be straight, and given teh odds over teh centuries all gay genes would be margianlized.``

Mr. Farouq, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, and you seem to have little knowledge of genetics. First of all, no gay gene has been definitively discovered as of yet, only a specific locus (stretch of DNA) of the X chromosome of gay men which is not present on the X chromosome of straight men in the same form. We don`t know whether this locus contains a gene or not, or how this potential gene may or may not affect sexual orientation. To claim as you do that this `gene` is `recessive` is jumping the gun on many levels.

Even if one was to concede that the gene is recessive, though, your argument is still incorrect. If a recessive gay gene were to lie on an autosomal chromosome (not X or Y), then a homozygous straight (SS) and a gay (ss) would produce heterozygous straight children (Ss). But a heterozygous straight (Ss) and a gay (ss) would produce 50% heterozygous straight children (Ss) and 50% gay children. And two heterozygous straights (Ss x Ss) would produce 50% heterozygous straights (Ss), 25% homozygous straights (SS), and 25% gay (ss) children. Thus, `gayness` would certainly NOT disappear over time as you incrrectly deduce, but would appear consistently in every generation, as it does.

However, this purported gene lies on the X chromosome, of which men only have one that they inherit from their mothers (they get the Y chromosome from their fathers). Thus, even if they were to get this recessive gene from Mom, they would express it 100% of the time (lesbian expression rates would follow those for autosomal chromosome genes, since they as women have two X chromosomes).

Furthermore, most human traits are multigenic in nature and not a simple matter of dominant/recessive. The color of the iris, for example, is controlled by several genes, all of which interact in a very complex manner to produce the phenotypic trait we call `eye color.` Similarly, sexual orientation is most likely caused by a group of genes acting in a complex manner with one another to produce the trait, interacting with the physiological environment to create different levels of penetrance, or phenotypic expressiveness.

Your argument, unfortunately, makes no sense. You`re better off sticking with the ``it`s just a perversion!!! this and that holy book tells me so!!!`` position, since that, fortunately, is immune to logic and reason.

Berlin, 1939:

First they came for the Jews,
But I did not speak out,
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for the Communists,
And I did not speak out,
Because I was not a Communist.

Then they came for the trade-unionists,
And I did not speak out,
Because I was not a trade-unionist.

Then they came for the Catholics,
And I did not speak out,
Because I was not a Catholic.

Then they came for me,
And there was no one left to speak out for me.

- Pastor Niemller (Anti-Nazi Resistance Movement)

RE: homosexuality

The debate seems to have turned to homosexuality in my absence (was on vacation).

I agree with GSM, Kafir, don`t like..., SR, etc. As far as I am concerned, homosexuality is `normal`, is ok, is fine, is legitimate, is acceptable. a person can be homosexual or bisexual and call themself pakistani or muslim or whatever they want. ITS OKAY. But, persecuting, discriminating against, oppressing, harming, even hating homosexuals IS NOT -- I REPEAT -- NOT OKAY!!

As a woman I feel that the struggle for women`s rights cannot be ideologically (and even practically ) divorced from human rights in general. The broader struggle for social justice has to recognize and fight ALL forms of oppression (based on race, class, gender, age, sexuality, etc.) to be truly successful and honest. I am not suggesting that all feminists must fight for the rights of gays and lesbians, but just suggesting that they recognize and support the struggle of gays and lesbians in their own work. I cannot say women deserve equal rights but its okay to beat up a lesbian woman. Does that make any sense? Such views only delegitimize my own position. How does that go, the famous saying about how they came for the jews and the gypsies and the catholics and I didnt speak up and finally when they came for me, there was no one left to speak up??? Can anyone say it right?

Re: Raaj

Thanks for the info. The book you mentioned, ``Lotus of Another Color: An Unfolding of the South Asian Gay and Lesbian Experience,`` is edited by Rakesh Ratti and published by Alyson Press (1993). It`s an excellent collection of essays, short stories, and poetry about the coming out experiences of these individuals and the challenges they had to face from both South Asian and gay cultures.

Re: Umer Farouq

Your question was directed to DLMWPH, but let me offer my two cents worth:

Bestiality is NON-consensual. Nobody asks Ms. Sheep or Mr. Horse, ``May I have sex with you?`` Therefore, the act is unethical because animals are not willing and informed participants.

Consensual adult incest is extremely rare, and in the few cases I`ve heard of, the participants were suffering from major psychological problems to begin with. Incest destroys the very emotional fabric of a family unit creating distrust and jealousy among its members and is therefore harmful to society. From a biological point of view, incest threatens the survival of the species because in sexually reproductive species like ourselves, genetic variation is essential to diversification and the ability to resist environmental pressures like disease, climate change, and predation. Reproductive incest severely restricts this need for genetic variation and amplifies undesirable traits which would otherwise be diluted through reproduction with genetically dissimilar individuals (witness the strange offspring of repeated first cousin marriages among many South Asian Muslims).

Every human being has an inherent need for sexual self-expression, be it through heterosexual sex or homosexual sex. The brother and sister who would have consensual incestuous sex can just as easily find sexual self-expression with a non-familial member of the opposite sex. A heterosexual cannot find sexual self-expression with a member of the same sex and a homosexual cannot find sexual self-expression with a member of the opposite sex. Sexual orientation and incest are categorically different, and thus cannot be compared as such.

Re: Umer Farouq (``...answer the question.``)

Umer sahib:

Reading through the debate I notice that you are facing the same ‘dodge and duck’ tactics from ‘Don`t Like Mullahs’ as I did from you and GSM (in another discussion not too long ago) when I confronted you with specific questions about errors and contradictions in the Quran.

Since you are adamant to ask this person about incest and bestiality, and this person, for whatever reason, is “dodging your questions” (like you dodged mine) let me answer the questions, if only, you will return the courtesy and answer, point blank, my old questions without beating around the bush and running around in circular arguments.

(1) Bestiality among consenting adults: You ask why this should not be allowed?

There is only one consenting adult here: the human. The poor beast has no say in the matter and thus it is not a ‘mutual consent’. It is cruelty on, and abuse of, animals.

(2) Incest among consenting adults: You ask if this should be allowed.

This is a different matter than bestiality. It is not reasonable to make laws against nonviolent acts which consenting adults can do. If two adults wish to engage in incest so be it. As long as it is not rape or child abuse, no one has any right to make their action a punishable crime.

The bad thing about immediate blood-relative (parent, sibling or offspring) incest is that if there are any children born this way the bad effects of consanguinity will be even worse than they are in first-cousin marriages. (Thus in some cultures first-cousin mating is also considered incest.) The taboo on incest has a beneficial social value for reason that have less to do with ‘ethics’ and much more to do with genetic and cultural retardation of the next generations.

To those who base their objection on so-called “Allah’s Law”, I ask this: What kind of a law maker is this Allah which the Quran portrays? He keeps changing His mind and His laws like one would expect a confused desert dweller to do. He lets the sons of Adam and Eve marry their sisters, and also allows a prophet to marry two sisters at the same time but later changes these laws!

The Almighty had the power, after all, to keep things clean from the start by creating two Adams and two Eve’s thus abolishing incest from the beginning, didn’t He? Why not? Thus according to the belief syatem of literal Quran follower ARE WE ALL ultimately ‘bhain-chood key nassal’? (What a foolish story?) Please ANSWER this question and earlier questions.

...SR

Kafir:
There is the South Asian Lesbian and Gay Association, SALGA, based in the States. someone once told me of a publisher based in faisalabad? hyderabad? that printed lesbian/gay poetry. finally, there is a book written by a desi queer, ``A Lotus of a Different Color,`` I can`t remember the authour.

AA or anyone else:

Do you know of any human rights groups that are working for the protection of gays and lesbians in Pakistan? If so, could you please post the contact information? Thanks very much.

Re: Sabrina

I`m now back from vacation and ready to respond to your request. Thanks for your patience.

The following is a very brief summary of the data presented in Chandler Burr`s ``A Separate Creation: The Search for the Biological Origins of Sexual Orientation`` (Hyperion Press, 1996):

1. In the 1950`s, American scientists, in an effort to eliminate homosexuality in lesbians and gay men, began a series of experiments based on the preliminary work of Nazi scientists which the US government had uncovered during WWII. Among other procedures, they removed uteri of perfectly healthy homosexual women, cut off their breasts, and made them undergo estrogen injections. Homosexual men were castrated and lobotomized, and underwent testosterone injections. Electroshock aversion therapy was used in order to reprogram homosexuals, in which they would receive severe electric shocks that sent them hurtling across a room every time they were aroused by an image of the same sex. To the chagrin of these scientists, these ghastly experiments severely altered the psychological make-up of the ``patients,`` but in no way altered their homosexual orientation.

2. In the 1960`s, sociologist Fred Whitman did an extensive and thorough study of several hundred homosexual men from all over the world and from many diverse cultures. He found that:
a) Homosexuality as an orientation is universal, appearing in all societies.
b) The percentage of homosexuals seems to be the same in all societies and remains stable over time.
c) Social norms neither impede nor facilitate the emergence of homosexual orientation. Homosexuals appear with equal frequency in societies that are repressive of homosexuality and in societies that are permissive. Repression simply reduces the expression of homosexuality, not its existence.
d) Homosexual subcultures appear in all societies, given sufficient aggregates of people.
e) Homosexuals in different societies resemble each other with respect to certain behavioral interests and occupational choices.
f) All societies produce similar continua from overtly masculine to overtly feminine homosexuals.

3. In a study published in the Archives of General Psychiatry, researchers Bailey and Pillard found that monozygotic (identical) twins, who share the same genes, are twice as likely to share a homosexual orientation as fraternal twins, who share only half their genes, and five times as likely as adopted brothers who were raised in the same family by the same parents - the same environment - but share no genes at all. They concluded the difference must come from genes.

4. In 1990, Dutch researcher Richard Swaab found that the suprachiasmatic nucleus of the brain was twice as large in homosexual men than in heterosexual men.

5. In 1991, Salk Institute researcher Simon LeVay found that the the third interstitial nucleus of the anterior hypothalamus (INAH-3) was more than twice as large in heterosexual men than in homosexual men (homosexual men and heterosexual women had similar sized INAH-3 regions). This region is known to play a part in the sex drive.

6. NIH molecular geneticist Dean Hamer conducted a genetic linkage analysis study using several gay and straight male subjects and discovered that
the vast majority of gay men shared a common genetic locus on the q arm of the X chromosome (Xq28) which the heterosexual males did not. He repeated this study twice using new subjects each time and got the same result. This locus has been named GAY-1 and has been published in the scientific publication Mendelian Inheritance of Man, commonly referred to as the `Bible` of Genetics. Researchers are now in the process of tracking down the specific gay gene in the locus (given that they can maintain funding for such research).

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

As you can see, the search for the biological origins of sexual orientation has just recently begun in earnest, but the fact remains that homosexuality is an orientation, not a preference or choice. Just because we do not yet know the specific genetic/neurological cause of homosexual orientation does not mean that it is not natural. We do not know the biological basis of heterosexual orientation either, yet we assume that it is natural. Why? Let`s be consistent. (BTW, this isn`t directed to you specifically, Sabrina, but to all Chowk readers :))

In the end, though, I don`t think these arguments or any solid evidence will ever convince those people who will continue to condemn homosexuality based on their religious convictions. It`s hopeless to have a rational and scientific dialogue with them. Where they can be engaged is in the area of politics. Homosexuals and those heterosexuals who support the rights of homosexuals to equal protection and privilege under the law must work to ensure that religious beliefs on this matter remain outside the affairs of the state. Religiously-minded opponents can condemn homosexuals till the cows come home in their private lives and their houses of worship, but they cannot legitimately persecute homosexuals or deny them employment, housing, citizenship, financial independence, or the right to live their lives as they choose. This must be clearly understood.

The best option for homosexuals in Pakistan right now is to live their lives with cautious discretion, to not participate in any religion that sanctions their persecution, and to actively work for a secularization of the government and the law so that they can look forward to a state in which they no longer have to fear political and legal injustice.

For an excellent analysis of an emerging politics of homosexuality in secular states (or how a secular state should deal with its homosexual population in a just and compassionate way that ensures both individual rights and the common social good), I suggest you read Andrew Sullivan`s ``Virtually Normal: An Argument About Homosexuality`` (Vintage Press, 1995). (Yet another book to add to a summer reading list ;))

Re: Amin Saleh

Your arguments are based on the assumption that homosexuality is a preference, when in fact all the evidence suggests that it is an orientation. Therefore, your arguments don`t stand to reason.
Your fear that an acceptance of homosexuality will lead to a surge in the number of homosexuals is unfounded. As sociologist Fred Whitman noted in the study mentioned above, the number of homosexuals appears with equal frequency in both repressive and permissive societies.

As for the threat to population growth, even if 10% of the population doesn`t reproduce (which is a very liberal estimate of the percentage of homosexuals), then population growth will hardly come to a standstill. Given that the planet is already overburdened with people as it is, allowing homosexuality and inherently non-procreative homosexual unions would be a beneficial thing. The human population does not need to grow anymore; it needs to be stabilized or even reduced. Human societies and economies are more likely to collapse because of overpopulation than because of reduced growth.

Re : Nisar Aziz

Dear fellow,
Nothing is going to be gained by being incivil or unjustly biased about what AA has written. I feel like many others, on this excellent forum, that personal slander is unacceptable here, and will not be tolerated.Accusation and persecution of written word, be it only for self improvement, or for generating some awareness about social evils, is always regarded as highly controversial, specially in a closed, suffocated society like ours. Yet the courage of this person AA is to be applauded for taking the initiative to write about something he/she had observed, and decided to bring to the attention of the wider readership.

Perhaps it might serve sceptics like yourself, to actually go through all the interactive replies on this section and then come up with some opinion, rather than merely reading the article. I feel the interactions on Chowk are very unique and remarkable in carrying on the discussion spirit..

It would have sufficed for you to say that you agree to disagree with the evnts as portrayed, or enofrcing it with ``Such incidents do not happen in your Pak...istan`` That would have given enough insight about your views to the discussion, and the extent of the contribution you are attempting to make.

Kind Regards

Asim

P.S In retrospect its perhaps not AA who needs help.....but others who fail to believe it, since they might not have seen it themselves, possibly as a result of having lived sheltered lives, where one did not come into contact with the opprresed, abused, and tortured victims of Pakistan.....At least allow for the possibility that such things would happen, no matter how Pak we all consider ourselves to be,,,,considering brothels still operate in Pakistan, considering alcohol is still available for those with money, considering all vices are still conducted except they are called ``simple pleasure pursuits`` of the rich and famous....

I read somewhere:

Quote:

What was once considered wrong, is now just considered unconventional and must be endured for the sake of personal freedom. What is then considered unconventional gradually becomes acceptable.

Unquote.

I have come accross so much supporting alternative sexual preferences. Its interesting those who support quote scientific studies. These studies, as I see it, are no different from those that support one glass of wine for promoting good health and smoking cigarettes as nothing more harmful then eating chocolates. Then there are studies that promote eating pork as they are bred and raised in most hygenic conditions. ``Scientific`` studies conducted concluded that blacks are intellectually inferior to the white.

My problem with all that is that the people that are defending a lifestyle seem to have most to lose on a personal basis. From the community perspective, although, these lifestyles have a most profound impact.

Lets suppose, we accept that homosexual behaviour is a genetic condition. And that these leads more persons leading this life (mind you without acceptance the percentages are 4-10% then with acceptance you will initially see a surge - maybe an inverted J curve effect). This will lead to a reduction in the population growth. Not that the population growth in the western countries is not already a problem.

A reduction in population growth will lead to reduction in economic growth which will lead to a financial nightmare.

As I see it no religion has promoted social, economic, health or literacy decay. Freedom should not mean destruction of civilization. Freedom should lead to a more fulfilling role for mankind.

Those who equate women rights with those of gays are falling prey of the fallacy, that if sex with women is fine, then sex with married women is fine. Why do we distinguish between atomic power for energy and medicinal needs but not as a choice of weapon.

Re: Sabrina

Re your request for a synopsis of the data presented in the book on the search for the biological origins of homosexuality: I will post it as soon as my partner and I return from vacation in a few days (I`m taking Waheed Malik`s advice to get some sun and escaping from rain-drenched San Francisco :)).

Re: Anita Zaidi

I would be interested in your ``views`` on homosexuality given that you`re both a physician and a believing Muslim.

The humanism of a society can be judged by how well it takes care of its underpriveleged - its poor, its handicapped, its physically ill, its mentally ill, its orphans, its disenfranchised minorities. Our society doesn`t even BEGIN to take care of the needs of the majority of its population - the ``main-streamers`` - the fact that minorities suffer under these conditions is hardly surprising. While isolated incidents serve to bring focus to the problem, social injustice and abuse are a wide-spread, every day occurrance in Pakistan, with poverty being the common denominator.

Having said that, I do have ``views`` on homosexuality. Will have to dig that essay out. The editorial staff initially thought the readership wouldn`t be interested.

Anita

Re: GSM

I have stayed away from this homosexuality debate because to me it is futile. I am free now for a glorious week and afford to say a few words;)

The facts of the matter are quite plainly laid out. The few men who had written on what Islam says on the issue are merely relaying to us what many choose to ignore. And like `good` Muslims, the first response is to bank on Islam`s embracing love and extend that to even the sinful. This basic human instinct in us finds it hard to condemn a homosexual for being as he or she is. However, when we accept and encourage, we reject the word of God-the verses are all simple to understand. The tradition of discrimination and abuse stems from the Quranic injunctions. Remember that, all the believers! See and feel your contradictions.

It may be a hard truth to swallow but Islam does not welcome homosexuals. I am happy that Kafir has the good sense to distance himself from this religion or any of the Abrahamic ones all of which biases against him and formulate his personal version of sprituality for himself. A month ago, I found myeslf at the Queer Masjid webpage. And was amazed at how some people cling to their religions even when it was apparent it (never mind its followers) did not want them there. However, I do understand that the need to have a grounded base in terms of guidance and hope outweighs much of this distaste for the clear words within the religion.

For the Muslim believer who is homosexual-does it not bother them that while they think their God created them that way, this same God obviously related negatives on the leaning? Or that this God was too much preoccupied with regulating and guiding the 90% of the straight people? That He spoke of men and women as being complements for each other, not same sex? Was he forgetting the others or are they unimportant? Wouldn`t a God have taken that into account?

Ah...But you see, believers do not think it natural in the first place. The Muslim homosexual is an unfortunate paradox. I aplogise if for some this truth is hard to stomach. But I say this for benefit of those Muslims who are waxing poetry over Islam and its great love while ignoring quite blatantly what their religion preaches.

There are already many contradictory statements about women in the Holy Book and we have to keep reminding ourselves,that is there is desire to remain a strong believer, that there must be a reason for it all. A believer may fluctuate in his level of devotion, but he never doubts it. This includes homosexuality as well. I will repeat as I did in the other article, how far will liberal minded Muslims go in trying to smoothe over the crinkles THEY don`t like? Your faith is not a game. It is real, or am I mistaken?

More and more, I feel that there will be more Muslims like these over the years. Perhaps someday the Islam I learnt will no longer be around. I do not know yet what to make of it.

I have more respect for Umer Farouq and his kind-because they say what they believe, as it is. There are no politically motivated overtures, no whitewashings, no apologies. They say-this is is and that is that. These people are true to themselves and their consciences. They are NOT advocating butchering of homosexuals-but they do not want to apologise for what their religion preaches either. These people are being honest.

In an individualistic society like America, many people are quite indifferent about homosexuality. I see it at the gay dance clubs-straight and homosexuals all together and not caring about the others orientation (i am not discounting occurences of gay-bashing) It may have been odd for me before to imagine a homosexual man paying a woman a compliment, but it happens. They are as normal as the guy next door and if they never said anything, no one would know. They just do not want to follow you home. Many do live their lifes in secret, even in America! What of Ellen (NBC sitcom where main character came out) and its cancellation? America herself is not ready for outright acknowledgement of this reality being played out on a larger sceen.

Some people will accept homosexuals as friends, colleagues, acquantainces without trying to preach them to the right path, others will avoid them...It just is.

I think talking about fighting for homosexual rights in Muslim majority countries is uselss. It is even more tedious than trying for womens` rights where the boundaries can at least be stretched to a limit.

I have a feeling that is why many of the regular interacters stayed away.

There is something to be said for the quest for secularism. And I wonder if and how Anita`s alternative of Islamic Humanism would cater to homosexuals.

Re: Kafir.

I noted the book you suggested we read. However, I doubt if I will have time to seek it out just yet. I have too much on the must-read list as it is for the summer. However, it would be nice if you have the time, to write out here the concluding results of this biological search. I would be most interested in knowing. Thanks.

AA: I`m also a social worker (MSW) in the US
and interested in finding out more of the work
you do or have done. -Altaf altaf@wco.com

WHERE IS ...

BAD GIRL?
ANITA ZAIDI-SHAFQAT?
SAAD SHAFQAT-ZAIDI?
SABRINA?
SOHAIL RABBANI?
ASIM HAYAT?
WASIQ BOKHARI?

nOW tHAT wE nEED tHEM??????????????? :))- ;8))-

Maybe their postings are on the ``retired server``
and lost to posterity :)-

Peronally, I would defend gays and lesbians as I would advocate for women`s rights.

I think homophobia and sexism are symptoms of the same hetero-sexist ideology. The same forces that discriminate against women, seek to restrict them to their procreative and private sphere, veil them, curtail their rights, and protect their murderers, work against homosexuals and their rights. In a philosphical and ideal sense then women`s liberation can never be realized until we break out of this man-woman, procreatively anxious dichotomy.

In a practical sense, perhaps advocating for women`s rights and gay rights is somewhat not possible. While they are rooted in the same oppressive source, women`s rigts have a forum for discussion. So if you talk about women`s rights, people will listen, but if you talk about gay rights, at least on average you will have a person freak out on you and quote Lut & Co. and the warmth of hell`s fire. So, unfortunately as an advocate for women`s rights you end up detracting from your advocacy, once you bring in gays. But in principle, you shouldn`t have to deal with a schizophrenic distinction between the two!

I think many women`s advocacy groups have been plagued by this split.

Ofcourse, homosexuality is hidden or driven underground in Pakistan; most would deny it even exists. I can only cite anecdotes to show that, but of course, it exists. But citing anecdotes is a practice hated by some statistical fanatics on Chowk - the same people who will cite the Quran to prove a point but when anyone tries to prove theirs, they demand statistics with their right hand.

After reading the last few postings and tit-for-tat banterings between DLM & Umer & Amir & Kafir, I rest my case. I would once again urge and appeal that ``I wish we wouldn`t use RELIGION as the basis for discussions here on Chowk, unless it is extremely pertinent to the discourse. I believe we will all learn and get educated more on this excellent forum called chowk, if we used socio-econo-medico- politico-otherco as the framework for discussions``. IMNHO!!!

Otherwise, folks, once again we are going circular and talking past each other since or as Brother Umer pointed out in some interact somewhere: BASIS of discussion is different ... religion versus secularism point of view. There is a firewall between the two here on chowk, or so it seems, and it ain`t going to get us nowhere. To paraphrase
AA, ``all of you are boring me to the nth degree, so go away`` :)-

The following posting was still on the old server. It is reproduced in its entirety.

( * you removed my original posting about the sin of homosexuality. Why? *)

Dear Amir:

( * you removed my original posting about the sin of homosexuality. Why? *)

Please repost. No posting has been deleted. For the last 5 days Chowk has been running on 2 servers as it was migrating. A number of readers have ended up on the old server as the DNS announcement was propagating. Your response was submitted on the server that we just retired.

Chowk Staff

Re: Discussion of Homosexuality

GSM: Thank you so much for clearly defining what homosexuality is and is not. Your open-mindedness and willingness to listen to and learn from others sets a great example for all Chowk participants.

DLM: ``in the name of Allah, the Most Compassionate, the Most Merciful.`` If only every Muslim could begin all his words and actions with this realization and manifest these attributes in himself, the world would truly be a better place.

I agree with you wholeheartedly that ``without a reinterpretation of the Quran, the issue of gays and lesbians is [not] going to be easily resolved in muslim majority countries.`` In communities where religious belief prevails, this is the only way to go in bringing about any lasting change that would guarantee the legal protection of homosexuals followed by a general acceptance of homosexual unions. But first you have to convince the majority that your interpretation is the more compassionate, more just, more realistic one. That`s a tall order, but I`m glad to see that you and other like-minded people are making the effort. True, it would be much easier to work for gay rights (and the rights of women and religious minorities for that matter) in a secular framework where reason and experience reign instead of dogma (because, as you rigtly point out, those who oppose homosexuality don`t have a leg to stand on without their holy books), but that`s asking to change the whole structure of Muslim societies and is a far greater task to achieve. Even in the largely secular US, though, the right-wing Christian Coalition is threatening to overturn hard-won gay rights legislation in many states because if its unflinching belief in the inherent immorality and destructiveness of homosexuality. But, fortunately, the court systems here are for the most part on the side of reason and will serve to protect our human rights. However, for a genuine and enduring acceptance of homosexuals and homosexual unions anywhere, fair-minded people of faith like yourself will have to bring about spiritual change in people`s hearts which no amount of legislation can ever do.

Umer Farooq: You write of a ``political lobby which is promoting totally unsubstantiated theories as fact.`` What ``unsubstantiated theories`` are you talking about? Volumes and volumes of personal testimonials and scientific studies attest to the facts that homosexuality is not a choice, that it is immutable, and that it is perfectly natural. What substantiates your parochial view besides your own circular religious argument? And to say that being gay is more immoral than adultery only belies your own warped view of the world. Adultery is about a deep betrayal of someone to whom you have made a life-long commitment; homosexuality is about the very human and natural need to be loved given the way you were created. If you really think the latter is worse than the former, then I`m afraid the only ``perversion and misdirection`` that exist are in your mind.

May God bless you with a close homosexual friend or a homosexual child of your own so that you can see the world through his/her eyes and allow the seed of compassion to take root in your heart.

Re: I. Ahmed

Go away, you bore me.

RE: Interact Responses

I wish we wouldn`t use RELIGION as the basis for
discussions here on Chowk, unless it is extremely
pertinent to the discourse. I believe we will all learn and get educated more on this excellent forum called chowk, if we used socio-econo-medico-
politico-otherco as the framework for discussions.

In discussing gay and lesbian rights (using socio- econo-medico-politico-otherco as the framework), we should define what ``homosexuality`` is. As a
straight person and after having visited the site,
http://www.geocities.com/WestHollywood/Heights/8977/, I came back with the following PERSONAL conclusions:

* Homosexuality is not a lifestyle

* Homesexuality is a result of genetics i.e. gays and lesbians have no control over what they do and who they are; just like us heterosexuals have no control over what we do and who we are

* Gays and Lesbians are ``normal`` folks like you and I are. They are senators, congressmen, doctors, lawyers, businessmen and are found in all walks of life. True, many have not come out of the closet yet, but for good obvious reasons. Those who have, we should salute their chutzpah!

* AIDS can be acquired through either heterosexual or homosexual encounters. Practicing safe sex is the operative word in both instances.

* Sexual preferences or what specifically homosexuals or heterosexuals do in the privacy of their bedroom should be none of anybody`s business. To each his/her own ... don`t ask don`t
tell.

* Homosexuality, by definition, is not about forced sex or child molestation. It is consensual
sex between two consenting human beings of the same sex. Homosexuals are NOT pedeophyles (sp?) ... this is an important point to keep in mind.
As a heterosexual person, I benefitted greatly by
reading ``How To Be A Muslim Homosexual`` by Brother
Sulayman X. It is a moving and emotional life account of the trials and tribulations of a human who also happens to be a Muslim. It can be found on this url:

http://www.geocities.com/WestHollywood/Heights/8977/book.htm#Book - Introduction

After you have read it, come back and LET THE DISCUSSIONS BEGIN!

Re: GSM, Don`t Like Mullahs, Syed Amir Hussain and Homosexuality

As a gay man of Pakistani and Muslim background, I was very heartened to read the responses from GSM and Don`t like mullahs on their attitude towards homosexuality. GSM, you give hope to many Muslim gay men and lesbians around the world who struggle daily with reconciling their faith and their sexuality. Many pass through their lives in a state of self-loathing and fear, not understanding why a merciful and compassionate God would create them one way and then condemn them for being who they are. Your decision to accept them in God`s love and as fellow believers goes a long way in alleviating their plight. May God bless you!

To Mr. Amir Hussain and his ilk: Your robotic, heartless adherence to Qur`anic verses and rigid, merciless interpretation of Islam make many people like me turn away from Islam altogether. I know this will fall on your deaf ears, but homosexuals DO NOT CHOOSE their sexual orientation just as left-handed people do not choose their handedness. It is a part of who they are (most likely due to biological reasons) and cannot be changed by religious devotion or psychiatric counseling (I`m sure the physicians out there can corroborate that). I look forward to the day when condemning all homosexuals to hell-fire will seem as ridiculous as condemning all left-handed people. (Incidentally, left-handedness and homosexuality occur in virtually the same percentages, 4-10%, around the world in any given population group.)

Personally, I cannot accept a God that would condemn me to hell for something I didn`t choose to be. If i was a person of faith, I might try reinterpreting the apparent anti-gay statements in the Qur`an in a way that would remove the stigma against homosexuality as many gay Jews and Christians are doing in re-interpreting the story of Lot, or as many Muslim women are doing concerning the misogynistic statements in the Qur`an. But there would always be the hateful elements like you who would try to knock me down at every step with your merciless tactics. Why bother? It`s easy for me living in the US and especially in California where gay rights are established to reject your vitriolic religious beliefs and your culture. I never have to see your face or interact with people like you if I don`t wish to. But my heart goes out to those gays and lesbians in Pakistan and other Muslim countries who have to live lives of fear, alienation, desperation, and shame because of people like you with whom they have to interact on a daily basis in all areas of life. It`s so easy for you to take a few minutes of your time to condemn them and then forget about it as you move on to your other affairs. But they have to live with your hatred every minute of their lives. Currently I`m communicating elctronically with a gay man in Syria who`s thinking of committing suicide because his parents are pressuring him to get married. He has nobody besides me to talk to and discuss his problems with because of the unsupportive culture. Is this what you want for your fellow muslim brothers and sisters around the world? This is the fruit of your hatred. I hope to God (obviousy not YOUR God) that he doesn`t end his life and that he can find the strength to resolve his fear and desperation. I wish I could convince you to open your heart to the pain and suffering of your homosexual brothers and sisters and give them a chance to be loved for who they are. This is my prayer for you.

For those who would like to learn about the biological origins of homosexuality, I recommend you read Chandler Burr`s ``A Separate Creation: The Search for the Biological Origins of Sexual Orientation`` (Hyperion Press, 1996).

re: i. ahmed. The reason for the article is
simply that these issues are not talked about,
or addressed in any other way. Those people
who suffer abuse, are asked to do it silently.
What the magnitude of the problem is? That only
some kind of research will be able to produce,
however, exploratory and anectodatal evidence is
an important step towards a more systematic study
of the issues presented -and then a move towards
a solution. I`m interested in what you claim to
be the Islamic solution to these problems.
altaf

Re: Syed Amir hussain

Amir:
Your remarks on homosexuality are deeply disturbing and your intolerance scares me a little bit, specially in light of a global culture of homophobia; where gay men and women are the victims of extreme public violence.

I admire your ability to quote the Quran and remember stories like Hazrat Lut`s; stories which many of us grew up with and memorized either at home or through repeated Islamiat classes. But aside from citing surahs and stories, can you articulate your personal rationale for condemning homosexuality? Besides religion (Islam and others), maybe you can spell out why homosexuality is unnatural or perverse, or reprehensible?

Is it because of procreation or disease or some other myth?

[For several hours Chowk was running on 2 different servers due to upgrades. This response was left on the old server on May 1, 1998 - Chowk Staff]


I just visited the website mentioned by ``don`t like mullahs``, which is entitled ``Queer Masjid``.  NaAzooBillah!

http://www.geocities.com/WestHollywood/Heights/8977/

However, after getting over the shock and anger, I must admit I have a better understanding of the
gay and lesbian issues.  It is not a disease as commonly thought by us straight-people but a definite sexual orientation ... a queerness or affliction bestowed upon by Allah on about 5% of the population. 

Just like we have other queernesses in this world ... midgets or supertall people or people born with one eye or three legs or four arms ... homosexuality is the same way. We should show empathy and love for them just like we should for other queernesses in this world.  If they happen to believe in Islam and consider themselves Muslims, we should treat them as part of the Ummah.  May Allah give us the patience and strength to show kindness to all humankind, regardless of their queerness.     

anita z. : to the extent anyone wishes to talk
about their past, yes chowk is the place to
do it. And hopefully it`ll lead to some kind of
an action in the future, whereby we can see some
kind of services for abused women in Pakistan. In
the US, in several cities, there are hot lines and
shelters specifically for south asian abused
women, and at least one for Muslim women.
Personally it has been my contention that there
needs to be more people going into the social
sciences so that we can better know, understand,
and treat these issues. But social work as a
proffession is hardly recongized in Pakistan
correct me if i`m wrong on this... -altaf

Re: To all the ladies who revealed their ``dirty`` secrets.

I think that was much needed in this discussion. Hopefully, your people will wake up and realise what a complete farce your place of birth is and change it for the better.

Comment on ``Oh so you want to be a loose woman? You want to dishonour our religion and family?
We have to protect you for your own good as ordained by Allah,``

This is common mantra amongst the elders who use it to instill guilt into their daughters who want to spread their wings. How can one argue against Allah? It is not easy to do otherwise other than pay heed. It is much easier to conform and abandon the dreams. But then what lies ahead without dreams?

So I`ll tell you girls this-study hard, demand that university education. It is your only ticket toward independence. From then onwards, a job is almost secured, and what needs to be overcome is this dependence and fear mentality created from being given doubts of our own capabilities.

If it means causing hurt when you break free, embrace it. If it means being estranged/disowned go meet it. Which is better? To go through life and realise one day you have never lived it or to take that risk and attempt? If they truly loved you, they will accept it and someday understand...
Hopefully.

Re:concerned, confessor, and hidden

More power to the women who are coming out and talking about the abuse they have suffered. Your stories should help quell the doubters and deniers among us. Especially the ones who make the distinction between ``mahrams`` and ``namahrams``. As if the crimes are limited to namahrams. Most rapes and assaults in fact are perpetrated by mahrams.

Re: altaf Bhimji

I agree that Chowk is not the place for counselling abuse victims. However, a personal catharsis may be achieved by talking about the abuse in a public forum. No other such place currently exists for Pakistani women.

Re: Reader

Dear Reader, you missed my point. What you do with your life is your prerogative, but advising all Pakistani women to stay away from Pakistani men and marry Europeans and Americans is hardly going to solve their problem, unless you envisage mass immigration of all Pakistani women to the West! We can`t give up on Pakistani men - for that is ignoring the vast multitudes of our suffering sisters. We need to stay on the ground and fight. We need to reform Pakistani men. That would be progress.

Incidentally, I thought an alternative solution may appeal to you :). I read in a paper today that some orthodox Jewish women in New York who are sick of their husbands`refusal to grant them a ``get`` (a religious permission to initiate divorce granted to men only in orthodox Judaism) have organized a militant group of thugs who go beat up on any guy who is refusing to grant a ``get`` in order to force him in to submission.

Also, FYI, I am not a Mrs. Zaidi. Zaidi is the name I was born with. Also, for good measure, our daughter has both my husband`s and my last names as her last name. Its only fair, we thought. Why should a child be known by her father`s name only?

Anita

Re:concerned, confessor, and hidden

More power to the women who are coming out and talking about the abuse they have suffered. Your stories should help quell the doubters and deniers among us. Especially the ones who make the distinction between ``mahrams`` and ``namahrams``. As if the crimes are limited to namahrams. Most rapes and assaults in fact are perpetrated by mahrams.

Re: altaf Bhimji

I agree that Chowk is not the place for counselling abuse victims. However, a personal catharsis may be achieved by talking about the abuse in a public forum. No other such place currently exists for Pakistani women.

Re: Reader

Dear Reader, you missed my point. What you do with your life is your prerogative, but advising all Pakistani women to stay away from Pakistani men and marry Europeans and Americans is hardly going to solve their problem, unless you envisage mass immigration of all Pakistani women to the West! We can`t give up on Pakistani men - for that is ignoring the vast multitudes of our suffering sisters. We need to stay on the ground and fight. We need to reform Pakistani men. That would be progress.

Incidentally, I thought an alternative solution may appeal to you :). I read in a paper today that some orthodox Jewish women in New York who are sick of their husbands`refusal to grant them a ``get`` (a religious permission to initiate divorce granted to men only in orthodox Judaism) have organized a militant group of thugs who go beat up on any guy who is refusing to grant a ``get`` in order to force him in to submission.

Also, FYI, I am not a Mrs. Zaidi. Zaidi is the name I was born with. Also, for good measure, our daughter has both my husband`s and my last names as her last name. Its only fair, we thought. Why should a child be known by her father`s name only?

Anita

Re: Concerned

Dear Concerned;

Thank you for sharing your personal experiences. I realize it takes alot of courage and I also appreciate your need to not reveal your identity or write your name (yet) at the bottom of your narrative. I also commend you for pointing out the hypocrisy in some of the posts on Chowk by people who`d rather have a clean and hygeinic image of Pakistan rather than confront and admit to certain glaring social and gender inequities.

You know when I was in Pakistan, some of the rape statistics were published in a newspaper and for a few weeks after that the office received several letters and emails, thanking the organization for informing them and somehow validating their experiences. No one shared their personal experiences, but I felt touched (as did others) just to see responses, and to know there are people out there who are reading, listening and writing.

You`re right, abuse permeates class boundaries and there are snakes everywhere. Domestic workers in household and business executives. If people can abuse their power, as older or richer people, they often do. I think silence furthers their power because they know that the victim of their abuse is younger, poorer, too scared to report on them, too naive to appreciate the nature of their actions, or too guilty that perhaps it is their own fault or their own ``provocability`` that triggered it.

too bad all the posts on homosexuality was
removed by chowk staff -even if it was getting
a bit heated, and all... still could`ve led
to an intreasting and productive discussion.
Gays and Lesbians exist in Pakistan, and there
are Muslims who are Gay and Lesbian. Too often
they are hated and get the worst treatment, often
abused by families and friends.
altaf

re: trauma hotline ... A section that
has a listing of various hotlines around the world
would be a good idea. I don`t think having
a social worker on line doing trauma counseling
is all that of a good idea. Too confidential of
a matter, and not having the backing of an
institution, it can lead to breach of confidentiality.
altaf - (a social worker)

Dear AA,

When I first read your article it struck a familiar note, since I myself have gone through a ``personal experience`` and I am trying to design my career so that I can productively work towards the improvement of women and children`s health in developing countries. Broad and idealistic though this goal may be, ``baby steps`` (as used in a completely different context by another reader) are probably better than none, and we have to do what it will take to get closer to helping women and children lead more civilized lives in Pakistan and other countries. Such steps include educating the some of these so-called liberal specimens whose intellectual and emotional maturity is equal to a cockroach (no offense to cockroach lovers).
When the people who visit chowk, an intellectual and widely-read site, people who have access to computers, who probably went to a decent school and college, who probably sport a liberal arts education, and pride themselves on their own intellects...when some of these people make statements such as
``I THINK THAT YOU`RE PSYCHOLIGICALLY DISTURBED AND NEED SOME SERIOUS MEDITATION. THE WAY YOU EXPRESSED THE FACTS IN THE ABOVE ARTICLE IT
SEEMS TO ME THAT IT IS A CREATION OF YOUR OWN MIND`` (M. Shakeel)…and various othrs), who profess that ``the article is believable but`` such and such, I am jarred into realizing how deeply ingrained moral and cultural philosophies truly become in a person`s head and blinds him/her to the issues at hand. That this M. Shakeel is seriously more concerned with image building than with the state of women and children in his homeland, is extremely disturbing. That he is probably one of several thousand who feel the same as him, is terrifying. And the nightmares that I thought would never come back, the memories of my own insecurities, my own helplessness in the face of such abuse all return to haunt me when I realize how pervasive and undeniably (no matter how one tries to veil it) accepted such cruelty is in our culture. True, as some other self-professed ``patriots`` point out, you will find it here in the US and in Timbuktu for all I know.But at least it is not condoned here, at least if I told my health counselor (and one exists here) that I had been raped, I would not be stoned to death or burned by the kitchen stove because my family was too ashamed to acknowledge my existence any longer. Even now, inspite of the fact that I have spent a number of years here in the United States, studied four years at a great college, have reasonably enlightened parents who wouldn`t force me to do anything,.. inspite of my educated family and privileged upbringing, I cannot bring myself to reveal my identity for fear of being completely and totally ostracized from society as I know it. Because, more than the village boys who take advantage of their young wives, more than the uneducated peasant who forces himself on women, I abhor the so-called civilized ones, who hide behind their ``liberal`` and ``modern`` lives, yet consistently show themselves to be the snakes that they really are in statements made like the one above, which try to diminish the courage and confidence that it took for you to write this article. If the ones who we think of as ``educated`` are the ones perpetrating such abuses by their ignorance, actions, denials, coverups (deliberate or undeliberate), what will become of those who have never been taught that it is not a Holy Virtue to show your manhood by beating up your wife or raping the next village girl?
I think that one of the first steps (one that I commend Chowk for having already taken) is to make it ACCEPTABLE to discuss rape, to discuss abuse, to admit one`s traumas..to create some sort of medium through which women CAN admit what happened, where they won`t be ostracized if they believe that they were abused. We need to first admit that there IS a problem, before we can actually eliminate it. And the victims need to be able to admit that they were WRONGED, for any justice to be brought to the abusers. The ABUSE has to be thought of as the evil, not the person victimized by it. I wish that I had had such an environment of openness in my school in Pakistan for me to be able to talk to someone about the sexual assaults my cousin inflicted on me when I was eleven, for more than three years. This person will never have to face charges, and his heinous crime will go unnoticed. He has his US education and his US financial sector job to proudly toot in the face of anyone who dares speak against his character. At best, I will be told it is a ``creation of your mind`` if I share my experience with someone in my family. At worst, I will be called a slut and shunned from ``sharif`` society. Such is the state of affairs in the so-called elite sector of our country. How does this bode for our rural sector, where a village girl would be thrown in jail for being raped? A woman should at least be able to turn to her own family for support when she is mistreated. Instead, in the name of religion and respectiblity, she is ignored or punished.
Since some of the readers seem to have difficulty in grasping the ``point`` especially when it is inconvenient for them to acknowledge these incidents as part of our cultural reality, I will state my point for their benefit in a hopefully lucid way: I was a victim of sexual assault, and personally know at least three other women from upperclass families who were physically, mentally and sexually abused, but due to the ``respectability`` of our families, fear, and the unwillingness of others to acknowledge the existence of such abuse, we had no means of support or counseling. These incidents are REAL, not fiction. They are not isolated, they were not brought on by some tempting lewd act on the womens part, and they are being perpetuated by some of our educated, civilized, intellectual individuals turning a blind eye. I am encouraged to read several of the replies by Anita Zaidi, BG, Asim Hayat, and various others who provide hope, not only for people like me, but also for the future of the raped, falsely accused and sentenced woman who had to give birth behind bars to her son. I fervently pray that such inhumane acts no longer remain taken-for-granted and that one day I will be able to write my own name underneath this article.

Dear Reader,

I do admire your feisty spunkiness, but most point out that the following remarks concerned me.

``I hope, I am not ``imposing`` my views - just expressing myself. All I am saying is : Do NOT settle for second best -do not to despair - because if we respect our bodies, our mind and apply ourselves and become successful then there will be hordes of guys outside our doors.``

Is not the whole idea that we get out of this kind of mindset - that a measure of our success is that hordes of guys be waiting outside our doors?

For those women who want to get married, I am all for them marrying the person that is right for them - for some this is regardless of race and religion. For others, their own culture, language, and religion is very important and giving up on that is a compromise. So I, for example might be okay with my sister or daughter marrying a non-Pakistani, but they might not be, because they can`t imagine sharing their life with somebody who doesn`t share their culture.

To an extent, I agree with you that there is a frustrating `kumi` of progressive desi men (as my husband likes to say - if you want to know exactly how `liberated` a desi man is, see how he treats his wife and sisters), and as I have said elsewhere, I don`t know many Pakistani men who treat their wives as equal partners - but here is the bottomline - I do know a few. Its silly to go around thinking all French men will treat you well, and all Pakistani men won`t. Give everybody a chance to show what they are like. Perhaps some kind of MMMPI test is what is called for here :)(check out the Man or Mouse story).

Anita

Re: irate reader who is not really pacified

It is a hard truth to swallow - not all women are the same, not all women desire corporate success, not all women wish to lead childless lives, not all women want to be uncompromisning in relationships. These are choices that each one of us makes for ourselves - and that is what we should argue for- the right of every woman to make these choices. I realize that the choices I have made are not necessarily the same ones other women would make. We are all different, with different needs and desires - who am I to impose MY vision on other women, tell them that they should do this, and not that - that deciding to stay home and raise children is any less worthy a goal than going out and making it in the corporate world. So, for me, a simple adage to live by is rules that I have made for my life are not nessecarily rules that apply to another woman`s life. As a practical example of this, I decided very early on in life that I would never compromise in marriage - I had to have equality in every way that the term can and has been defined. For me this was an easy choice to make - I would rather have stayed unmarried than be expected to, among other things, have dinner ready on the table every night (I detest housework). As I got older (yes, I got lucky - I met a desi guy who was willing to put up with me, idiosyncracies and all), I realized that many of my friends (also older), both American and Pakistani, most of them highly educated Wellesley, Bryn Mawr types are not so ready to make such a definitive choice any longer. They want more than a work career. It was okay to be 25 and single, even 35 and single, they just don`t want to be 45 and single.

With age, I too have made my peace. When I was pregnant every day I would remind my husband that everything about childcare has to be shared equally among us - there will be no compromise whatsoever. Once we became parents, I realized the futility of this demand - since I was nursing, my husband really couldn`t be much help, so after a few days of making sure he woke up several times at night when I was woken up by a crying baby, I just gave up - it seemed stupid to wake him up when he couldn`t do anything to help! Now that she is older, we have to deal with the ``I want Mom`` phenomenon. How does one explain to a child that her parents divide everything up equally - so its Abba`s turn now (but I confess, I do try using this tack from time to time). Life, unfortunately is full of compromises, and most of us end up facing up to that reality sooner or later - just live a little longer and you`ll find out for yourself.

Anita

Sabrina ==== [Pinkerton Syndrome: It is when a particular race group imagines or thinks another as being more worthy, more superior to their own. Hence, the need to acquire traits, trophies that will let himself be accepted by this group he wishes to identify with. It is not so much that the group wants him to conform, it is that he wishes to do so himself. Of course, he imagines himself the sole exception amongst his own kind, the one with potential]

Sabrina, you hit the nail right on the head with
the ``pinkerton syndrome``. Chowk is a microcosm of
Pakistan and as such is full of those afflicted with this syndrome. It comes through and through
perfectly clear in most of the interactions here.
Sad yet so true .....

Sabrina, you hit the nail right on the head with
the ``pinkerton syndrome``. Chowk is a microcosm of
Pakistan and as such is full of those afflicted with this syndrome. It comes through and through
perfectly clear in most of the interactions here.
Sad yet so true .....

To the author(AA):

Rape, domestic violence and non-consensual sex in marriage occur in every society - as does consensual sex in and outside marriage, which is very different from the first 3 that have to do with power and dominance . Certain societies, like the Pakistani one, like to bury their head in the sand and prefer to believe in the illusion that Pakistan truly is the Land of the Pure. Thank you for shattering this illusion and raising our awareness.

What I am interested in is what can we - people in and outside the country - do to improve this deplorable situation? When it comes to crimes, any crimes, not just domestic violence, rape, sexual harassment, there are often two approaches to dealing with them. One is strategic (long term - proactive), dealing with issues of prevention and the other is tactical(short term/immediate - reactive), dealing with issues of recourse. A strategic approach often prescribes the usual remedies for reforming society through improved literacy & education; creating an awareness of human rights (particularly those of women - it would be nice not to have to make that distinction and sound redundant) and implementing judicial and police reform. In other words, a structural reform of society is advocated to prevent/reduce crimes. Tactical approaches are often responses to the needs of the victims of the crime, providing legal, medical & psychological support. Both are equally important.

I would like to know from you, AA (and other readers), how can I help Pakistan in a concrete manner using these two approaches? I would very much like to get involved in groups (NGOs, Human Rights groups, etc.) to treat the root cause (lack of awareness, etc. ) and symptoms (rape, etc) of this breakdown in civil society (assuming that one ever existed). Can you (or anyone else) suggest names of organizations in the US, Pakistan or elsewhere, and how one can get involved?

Re: SR

Thank you so much for sharing your experience. Your story reminds me of ``My Feudal Lord``, by Tehmina Durrani, where she describes tactics similar to the ones you`ve described that her husband (Khar) used to humiliate and degrade her.
Also, I remember reading in DAWN of incidents where women of ``enemy`` families in family feuds were stripped and paraded. I still remember with disturbing clarity the testimony of a nine year old victim of this practice who preferred to die than to live with the humiliation.


Re: Kafir
I won`t say that violence pervades the whole of Pakistani society. However, I think most people live under such oppressive conditions of relative poverty and deprivation, that perhaps these conditions are a type of ``violence`` against humanity, or lead to a state where a heirarchy of oppression forms amongt people who in a very objective sense do not have basic needs covered, nor any social & political rights. When I went back prices were so high, people earning 2000-3000 a month literally don`t have enough money for food. And then there are people who spend 2,000 rupees for a dinner at New York Cafe, a chic new cafe where waiters pretend they don`t understand Urdu.

As for your narrative on the Native American people and their treatment of sexuality, it sounds great and egalitarian. You could probably make it an essay, if you haven`t already.


Re: GSM

BG is right. There are many South Asian immigrants who need help in this country and the importance of raising awareness can not be under stated, either for the diaspora or those at home. But work can also be done to re-direct energy and resources to the home-country. If you`re a student you can buy a 2-way ticket to Pakistan, get some grass-root experience and perhaps identify for yourself where you`d like to expend your energies. For example, some NGOs need information from the West, books etc. Fund raising is always an option. And then eventually, you can buy a one-way ticket and get some real human capital back to the country.

BG: It is generous of you to assume that with a father like me she will be just fine. The reality, however, is that whatever she accomplishes will be largely to her own, of course, but then to her mother’s credit, not mine. Unfortunately, we have not been together for most of the child’s life.

Note: In my earlier narrative I made a factual error. The CM of Punjab, at the time of the incident, was Nawab Saddiq Qureshi, not Hanif Ramey. Z.A.Bhutto was president and Khar was governor Punjab. Later Bhutto became PM and Khar, CM. Qureshi went from being puppet CM to governor. Khar (with his party thugs) ran the province in both positions. Ramey succeeded Khar as CM a year or so later.

...SR

BG==[there are many south asian women in the US who need support. If you are interested in supporting a cause like that, please send me an email through the chowk staff]

Thx. I am most interested. My email address is
gsm46 at hotmail dot com.

Re: SR
Thanks for adding your personal story. Your experience clearly illustrates that power dynamics are at the heart of abuse, including sexual abuse, that most of the male respondents in this section are ignoring. As far as your daughter goes with a father like you(as far as I can tell), she will do just fine ;)

Re: MAK
MAK, I am not arguing that men dont have control and women do. This is an excuse that I hear over and over again. I just laid it out so that its contradictions are obvious.

Re: Irate Reader
I totally agree with Sabrina`s response to you. You articulate very well the sexism and oppression we have to go through in our culture. But, I would like to add that some of the most awesome men I have known and know are South Asian. And some of the men who post responses/articles on chowk are as progressive as they come (judging from what they write). neither pakistani, nor western men are genetically programmed to be a certain way. All societies teach sexism, but there are enough male exceptions to give me hope. I read and write about pakistan and south asia i care about that part of the world. its as simple and basic as that.

Re GSM
I disagree with your main points:

1. For you and maybe some other people this may not be very shocking or `new`, but judging from the reponses to this article, particularly the way most of the men are ingnoring the central issue of abuse and focusing on sexual repression, tells me that this information is very important in this forum.

2. No body has to buy a tkt to Pakistan to rectify the situation. Education and awareness are powerful means of social change. Also, there are many south asian women in the US who need support. If you are interested in supporting a cause like that, please send me an email through the chowk staff.

dear sir,this indeed is an eye opener for the general public.I would say one of the blessings of the net.As a doctor&gynaecologist in my formative years I did noticed a lot of these&had to live with it.
We are certainly the most immoral society in the world as we are hypocritical about things&sex in particular.It just shows one aspect of our problem as it all springs out of illeteracy,where poor people,women&young are not aware of their rights.
We need to recognise this p[roblem,give it a press that it exists so that people are aware of it.
raja

This debate has reached an emotive ‘decibel level’ that has not been seen before. The subject is highly charged and very important. I salute the courage and clarity of the women here for their stand on the underlying principles. As the father of a sixteen year old daughter, I feel encouraged, and I hope she grows up to be just as clear and strong about her rights and her place in the world.

It is distressing to see that some men here are clueless about the issue at hand. Perhaps they’ve been fortunate and have never seen the ugliness of the abuse and violence that is so deeply ingrained and insidious in our culture. What’s puzzling is that not even one of the women here is as naive as several of the men. Perhaps this alone is indication enough that women are forced to learn the hard way, and they are all forced at one time or another.

The frankness of those who have chosen not to shut their eyes to reality has given me courage to tell about my own experience with abuse. Perhaps the ostriches will bury their heads a little deeper and shrug it all off as ‘isolated incidents’. This is something I have told only very few people.

As a young man of 18, I had the dubious distinction of being a ‘guest’ at the Lahore Fort. For those of you who know, the Fort used to be (maybe still is?) the place where dissidents were held and put to tortured. This was when Ghulam Mustafa Khar was governor of Punjab and Hanif Ramey was chief minister. My arrest was a mistake, as I was simply caught at the wrong place (New Campus), at the wrong time and with the wrong people. The details are too numerous and ultimately inconsequential, the main point I wish to convey is the treatment I received during the little over 24 hours while my family was searching for me. When they found out where I was they ‘arranged’ to get me out. If it had not been for a former IG police who was a close family friend my fate could have been a lot worse as I am sure was that of those who did not have an equivalent ‘safirish’.

Right at the beginning we (six of us) were completely stripped naked, kicked, slapped, spat on, cursed and threatened with our lives and then put in isolation with hands tied behind the back. Then began the psychological abuse which included sexual lewdness and crass vulgarity. I felt shocked, angry, disgusted and powerless and I experienced the horror that victimized women report feeling. The shrill screams all night long were worse than the initial physical beating. I cried, felt humiliated and begged for mercy and dropped big names to save my skin. I later learnt that they did treat me with kids gloves as they suspected that they may have gotten someone they shouldn’t have, i.e., they were concerned that I was dropping too many names.

This was something unthinkable, but it happened. Before that it had never crossed my mind that I could ever get caught in a helpless situation like that. In boading school I had received many a ‘canning’ and ‘extra drills’, but that did not prepere me for this. For two months afterwards my ribs and shoulder hurt and the anger lasted for years to come. I feel that if I can have an experience like this then no body is safe in that society.

...SR

PS: Asim Hayat

Sabz posh and The Gnomes (``...is that really true...``) Yes it is. Ask anyone who is old enough to remember and was in Lahore during the 1965 and 1971 wars. These stories also appeared in local news papers. We are people who have the gift to see things that don`t exist, yet be blind to what is right under the tip of our noses.

AA, I read your article several times and experienced a gamut of emotions: shock, anger, sadness, hopelessness, dismay. Although I know that these things probably happen all the time in most countries, reading about sexual violence and degradation still gives me a sick feeling inside and questions my belief in the success of human civilization. Maybe we are all just brutish animals at the core driven primarily by our selfish sex impulse, for despite all the great material and political achievements we have made over the millenia, we`ve still hardly made any progress in controlling and refining our sexuality in an effective way. But I suppose for that to happen we must first begin to talk frankly about sex and sexual pathology. Kudos to you for engaging us in the discussion.

I`m a Pakistani-American born and bred in the US so I don`t know the particulars of Pakistan`s sexual scene
(having only visited there every few years), but it seems to me that the sexual violence you describe is symptomatic of the general culture of violence that prevails in the country (as is the case in much of the US). From my admittedly-biased viewpoint, I felt that an atmosphere of aggression and violence pervades almost all aspects of pakistani life, from gun-play as celebration, to shouting political discourse, to heated arguments about religion, to battlefield-like traffic. There`s very little serenity in anything. Maybe the nation`s sexuality mirrors this. Maybe the way Pakistanis have sex is the way they conduct their lives in general.

This realization came to me after having spent one summer volunteering in health care and education at a native american Hopi reservation in New Mexico. My experience really opened my eyes to the enormous variability of human experience and human culture. Here are a people who are not very advanced materially (and generally don`t aspire to be) but who lead lives of such nobility, tranquility, and grace that I became convinced that the rest of the world is very likely suffering from a mass psychosis. They treat sexuality as a beautiful and natural human drive that needs to be expressed yet respected as a sacred connection to the natural order. There is a lot of adolescent sex as can be expected, but it`s treated as a natural part of growing up and not carried to excess (incidentally, Hopi teenagers, both boys and girls, suffer from very little anxiety and don`t develop acne!). Men and women co-mingle in all areas of life and thus don`t form ridiculous, ignorant attitudes about one another. There is virtually no rape, pedophilia, incest, or sexual abuse in their society. Homosexuals are considered as having a special spiritual role to play, serving as bridges of understanding between heterosexual men and women. All in all, the sexual lives of the Hopis reflect their general philosophy of life: equality, dignity, happiness, gentleness, joy. When they have sex, they really ``make love.`` It`s beautiful. Too bad the rest of the world is so backward in this fundamental aspect of life...

Frankly, I did not find this article either informative, interesting, shocking or disgusting.
One reads these kind of ``stories`` everyday in ANY
TOWN USA/AU/UK/PK. There is a child sex ring trial involving pastors and officials in high places going on where I live (a medium sized town, USA), with horrid and graphic stories worse than portrayed in this article. I have read similar stories and expose`s in Pakistani newspapers and magazines before.

So this article has added nothing new to chowk repository of other similar articles, except drawing a crowd with the use of 4-letter words and ``fashionable`` statements in interact tamasha ... folks trying to out do each other with their bleeding heart rhetoric.

After all this ga ga goo goo of orgasmic proportions about this article, now what? As Sabrina has pointed out elsewhere, talk is cheap.
Apart from obligatory oohs and aahs about the author and the article, how many of us have bought
one-way tickets to Pakistan to ``straighten`` this
mess out? Sabrina and Wasiq Bokhari and Asim Hayat have put forth excellent and concrete and doable suggestions/proposals, but it has met with dead silence from the crowd and the chowk staff. Truth is indeed stranger than fiction!

Re: Bad Girl`s comments

I like to respond of one of your replies in which you raised some points.

* * * * * * * * * * *READERS DISCRETION ADVISED * * * * * * * * * * * * *
* * * * * * *Some words may offend some readers * * * * * * *

The article written by anonymous never intended to abusement of women but the readers like you gave the credit and digressed the debate. Otherwise there was nothing in the article but to expose some `sexual acts` in an islamic republic country.
Ok lets take your points one by one.

1. I agree men and women are different biologically. You say men CANNOT control themselves and I dont agree with this and I would explain this a little later. Since men have external organ which participate in intercourse that is penis is highly sensitive and even a slight touch could affect it. Women have internal organ which participates in sex and seldom disturbs in daily routine. So some men (not all of them as you generlized) cant control with the above said reason. But I would tell you an example how women are uncontrol a little later. You well aware of the word Rape which is an act done illegally with a woman without her desire. This word frequently used in this modern society even for legal spouses just to give them a `protection`. This protection is well appreciated in those cultures where sex is also a culture and abundant. In a muslim state this `facility` can never be given to woman otherwise each day women would be marching on streets complaining of their husbands that they go to whores and never heed to them. Shareef Men would never go to whore but pass their times doing masturbation which would affect their health and eventually to women.

2. This is rehtoric statement and women have equal desire to be efyewseeked up and the definition of a `good woman` does not apply here. Women can never hide their desires to their husbands and if they do where and with who they like to be released (if they are muslims of course).

3. Again I would say men control everywhere (just give a look to your husband!) and their patience appreciated even among our women (certainly eastern and civilized). Men can control their penis as well and following you find an example. The reason you wrote this I understand as where you coming from.

4. I couldnt understand the meaning of `real power and status`. Who force women to serve as a vehicle for the male organ. If they want they can choose other way if they wish. You must know that women now serve as a vehicle for women organ (Do I need to explain it?)

5. This point is appended below

As you say men CANNOT control themselves I say women equally rather more uncontrol even in these `civilized` societies. Once I had on my way from university and waiting on subway station I noticed a well off, educated, civilized, sophisticated lady came nearby to me and stood as if she was with me. I perplexed as I never knew that lady and she was standing so close to me. The train arrived, stopped and door opened people stared getting off and as I got in she pushed me with her boobs as if the momb forced her to do so. I turned back she was smiling. She took the seat where I was standing I noticed she gloating but I ignored. She was continuously starring and when I looked her again and without any exaggeration she was itching her vigina keeping smile on her face. Then she stood and gave her seat to some elderly lady just for `courtesy`. Now she started rubbing on my hand. I recited `Durood Shareef` and got off my station. Now you tell me what that was? Didnt she abused me? Who controlled men or women? BB her muAshray maiN achChay Buray hotay haiN but they dont reflect the whole society.

Regarding your point of freedom of dressing, talking etc. I persist on on my previous views that muslim women should dress like a muslim woman and shouldnt adopt western styles. They should avoid talking with Na Mehram without any sever need as you never know when Satan overcomes you.

Everyday you see the consequences of sexual freedom and just watch the mirror of this society `Jerry Springer` where freedom is appauded and rights of women are well appreciated. BB Qiamat nazdeek hay Qibla durust kernay he maiN afiat hay.

regards.

MAK

Re: Umer

You misunderstood me. I did not mean no physical relationship in a marriage at all. I meant to counter your ``a woman has to abide by her husband`s physical needs`` statement,so I said a woman should be able to include into their contracts the right to refuse sex if so she choses to for whatever reason. That is her right, it is her body...I asked if this was permissible? I gather not. Right or wrong?

Re: Irate Reader.

While I agree with the main idea of how some males and eldery women treat their young females and brainwash them into thinking solely of their attaining marriage, I disagree with the notion of rushing to hook up with European men to realise what love is. I also take exception to this idea that American men are all ``gentlemen`` ;) They are not all that.

There are many wonderful South Asian people who are quite otherwise from what is being portrayed in this discussion. Just because the so called enlightened and westernised South Asian men are running after ``immoral`` women, this does not mean
the woman has to get all disheartened and worry about her impending doom with an overly religious monster and become equally ``immoral``.

The fact that there are writers like BG and Anita about should bear testimony that there are indeed women who are quite comfortable being themselves, with their tradition intact. Traditional morals does not always have to equate into religious sanctions.

Getting married on time is not a duty, it`s a social obligation that can be discarded if the woman chooses to. It can be done. And staying chaste is not something torturous. Either way, running to the European lover, or running to the matched marriage-please, women think and be discriminating in the choices.

Ok, Reader? Chill out;)

sorry folks, for getting off the topic...

Re : SR and little Green Gnomes a.k.a(sabzposh)

My apologies for distracting from the main thread, ... but the folowing was too funny to not comment on!!!

As an Aside, SR wrote:``The job of these ‘sabz posh’ being was to intercept the bombs of the Indian Air Force in mid-flight and either (1) land them safely, without exploding, or (2) divert them from their target, be it a bridge or a railroad line.``

Is that a fact? i just could not help laughing about this folklore!! Amazing,!!! Indeed, i loved the part about specifically intercepting Indian Airforce Bombs (showing some sort of pattern recognition software/programming being embedded into the green gnome hardware), !!!

Well i always say, one learns something new everyday. Thanx for enligtening us SR Sahib

Kind Regards

Asim

Re Discussion

I would like to commend BG, AZ, SR and the few handful of men for believing in the gravity of these sexual abuses, and that these do happen. It keeps the discussion focussed on the taboo subject without getting lost in the hullaby of the ``non-believers`` who try to induce doubt and sarcasm with thir critical pointless commentary, about a fact of life, with their baseless arguments.

AA, Way to go once again. You are indeed a brave lady,(I tend to agree with BG that it is indeed a courageous lady, not that has anything to do with the article) to have written this groundbreaking piece of truth, and with such honest energy and sincerity....

Language merely serves as a means to an end. Sure the language is graphic, but i feel the writer has used it to her/his advantage with sheer brilliance, at least in creating the shock value of her narration, for hitting the feebled sensors we have for detecting such pain and dejection!!!!
I fully endorse such language as a way to condone such cruelties, in the name of a decent and moral society!!!

Power to you AA

Kind Regards

Asim

P.S You have done a hell of a lot for the silent masses, who dare not raise their voice lest they be abused more......with this article....than most articles put together here on Chowk for a collective good!!!... it made us all evaluate ourselves, one way or the other, and perhaps with a view to changing the ``inner evil man``, the sadist perpetrator of such heinous crimes.....

RE AA

Thanks for the additional information and for bringing the discussion back to the main issues.

Except for SR, the women and some of the other men, the majority of responses (male) are still not acknowledging the criminal and violent aspect of what was exposed in this article. I am a little disappointed that people refuse to see the difference between desire and abuse.

Re Umer Farouq

Men and women are different? Are you trying to get men off the hook by explaining rape (or at least marital rape) as men being biologically different?


here are my two paisa`s on that

men and women are biologically different:

1) men CANNOT control themselves when they are aroused. that is why they rape their wives and presumably children of both sexes and other women.

2) `good` women do not have sexual urges. (if they do, good women hide them very well.) they only crave to please their husbands.

3) In all other respects (other than sexual), men have more control over their emotions; they are more `rational`, more competent, more intelligent, etc. that`s why they rule the world. The only thing they cannot control is their penis (and the violence they inflict with it)

4) women are more `emotional`, less rational, more `hysterical` (the word hysterical comes from the root word uterus) and generally sexless. that is why they never do anything that gives them real power and status. their only function is to serve as a vehicle for the male organ -- give the man pleasure and provide hime with off-spring that will carry on the man`s name.

5) if women display any kind of independence such as dressing, thinking or talking `inappropriately`, then they are bad. if they show any sexual independence then they are truly evil and jeopardizing the entire society. they are also deviants -- our mothers, daughters and sisters certainly do not want to have sex.

The bottom line is that such arguments serve only to take responsibility away from men in sexual matters. women are victimized and bear the entire responsibility for men`s sexual conduct (including sexual violence) isnt that ever so convenient? give women no other responsibility except the responsibility to control herself AND men`s sexual activity? If she can`t, she is a whore and a slut. interesting, isnt it that there is no male equivalent in our vernacular (urdu, punjabi, balochi, pushto) for slut/whore!

re: Sabrina, Anita, AA
did you know that in pakistan you need a nikah nama to for an abortion? AA/Anita, do you have any details on abortionn in Pakistan?

Re: Anita Zaidi, BG, others.

On Statistics for Rape
Many NGOs in Pakistan including, Human Rights Commission, War Against Rape, WAF, Shirkat Gah do collect statistics. Unfortunately, the 2 main sources, hospitals and newspapers, are not the most reliable in terms of determining the prevalence of rape and abuse. Hospital statistics cover only those people who report a rape and file an FIR, and this is not that many. People prefer to hush such an event, rather than invest time, money and risk losing respect and status by proscecuting in an often bribable court. Newspapers report sporadically, and usually papers like ``Evening Special`` sensationalize.

There were, on an average,about 20 to 25 cases reported a month in the hospital`s files for Karachi alone. Most of the women were lower-middle class and were brought by their families after being recovered from an abductor. Their ages and marital status varied. A couple or so of the 20+ cases involved zina where the woman was the one charged.

Statistics On Domestic Violence
There are no statistics on domestic violence. Unless dv is so severe that the woman dies, is burnt severely, or the crime against her was so unusual, dv goes unnoticed. Records at Abassi Shaheed hospitals alone show a hundred or more women victims per month who received second to third degree burns at home, had poisoned themselves, were assaulted at home.

Domestic Violence is not specifically criminalized in our society. Hence, hospital records are often accompanied with a police report, but then nothing happens, and the case is arbitrarily dismissed before it even reaches the dockets of the court.

On Filth and Other Issues
Thanks, BG, for asking people not to attack the author.

Re:BG

``MOST Pakistani women I know have experienced some form of sexual assault from mild to serious. Incidents of `mild` assault are so pervasive, we take them for granted. They include things like being bumped into or `fingered` in bhori bazaar. Serious assault would be penetrative rape. A lot of young women are also victimized by uncle-types, older relatives, cousins, brothers-in-law and family friends.``

I second BG`s remarks. Most women that I have talked to either know someone close to them who has been a victim of sexual abuse, or it has happened to them personally. And this doesn`t incude the Bohri bazaar incidents. A 100% of us have experienced those. One would think that incest wouldn`t be very common b/c of large members of family members living together, but I know of many women who have been victims of incest - usual culprits are uncles, and uncles-in-law, cousins, and family friends -such as friend`s father etc.

Anita

Re: Umer.

You say the woman has to abide by her husband`s physical needs, unless so and so. Then you add that the husband has to keep in mind her condition. Well, which is it? Either he keeps her welfare in mind or he keeps his welfare in mind.
By condition, you cannot merely mean her physical state. There is also the emotional side.

It is contradictory to say a woman ``has`` to, and add the clause that the husband can act with own discretion if so he pleases. What if he does not and seeing that the wife has that ``has to`` hanging over her head, what option does she have?

There are times, surely, when they will not want to get cosy, and yes, for no absolute reason. You said it-men and womens` natures are different.

I believe women can add their own conditions in the marital contract. Why not add that she may refuse at anytime if she pleases? Or is that not allowed? Perhaps, no traditional man will marry her, I guess.

On true respect for kith and kin womenfolk and education. I am wondering if you could elaborate how sex education occurs on Islamic grounds. What would be taught? In schools or at home? I know that sex is never a topic in most Muslim households. In fact, we are supposed/expected to be ignorant about it until we are married but that is not a reality in these times.

I was a little suprised with the article`s narrative on college life. I am now thinking there are probably more Muslim virgins outside these Muslim majority countries than within them. There is something to be said about the sexual repression BG was talking about. The hiding of pregnancies is like the stories we hear frequently in the US. It is tragic that so much inherent morality is lost in this chase to project the proper and ideal image. And what a facade it all is.

Which is worse? The aborting/killing of a baby as the birth control option? Or a sexual encounter between consenting persons with adequate contraceptives(pills and all) so that unneccessary pregnancies and the emotional hassle that follows it does not have to occur? Besides, where does the girl have the abortion? For all anyone knows, that abortion could be her end.

Evidently, consentual sex will continue with or without societal prohibitions. Things like these merely gets hidden from view.

What is needed is for people to be more open about it. Let them educate on the risks of pregnancies, the use of contraceptives, STDs. If pregnancy is unwanted, then it is essential to use the condom at a minimum. How ignorant these children must be if they act on what feels better(ie without condom) and show no concern for the consequences? Let them know what their religion prohibits and allows-parents job. Then allow them the choice of abiding if they wish to. But if they don`t, which obviously is what is happening, then in the least they will know how to be responsible about the whole thing.

One comment by AA struck me. The guy who had done all the girls called them names. This guy has the ``insight`` now as to who is the whore and who is the virgin in his community. Those who have responded to his or his friends` seductions are the whores, and those who haven`t the virgins. The mentality of such people is horrid. Sex is being used to degrade women EVEN if they participate willingly. Where is the respect, decency or emotion for this female who chooses to be with him? Sex this way has no meaning. Girls should be taught to be more discriminating, maybe more demanding.

It is sad to note that 15 yr olds just as in first world countries are indulging in stuff like this. Innocence lost at such a young age. What is left for when they are older?

Re: M. Shakeel and SH

Attacking the author does not respond to the facts she is presenting (i think its a woman, but I may be wrong).

I personally know of two Pakistani women, middle upper class, educated, virgins till they got married, ``good`` families who were in the most violent, abusive relationships which included rape. these women went to no one for help; even their parents don`t know of the full horror they experienced. MOST Pakistani women I know have experienced some form of sexual assault from mild to serious. Incidents of `mild` assault are so pervasive, we take them for granted. They include things like being bumped into or `fingered` in bhori bazaar. Serious assault would be penetrative rape. A lot of young women are also victimized by uncle-types, older relatives, cousins, brothers-in-law and family friends. I know of a 60 year old man, who goes to namaazejummah religiously every friday, who propositioned to a family friends` 17 year old daughter. he just went up to her and told her he found her desirable and asked her if she would sleep with him. she was not able to tell her family because she feared they would blame her (as often happens). she just avoided being alone with him after that.

The point is, all this happens. There is a great, great deal of sexual violence even in pakistan, whose victims are children and women. you just have to have an open mind and really listen to what people are saying and really look at what they are doing.

and what is the response of people like yourselves? that either the person who acknowledges is sick or the person who is being victimized is sick and asked for it. of course it is hard to acknowledge that this kind of horror goes on in our society AT A DAILY, and I would argue, pretty pervasive basis. Because if we acknowledge that such abuse is going on, we have to take some responsibility and make some choices about what we are going to do about it.

if you dont trust AA, talk to any NGO in Pakistan that deals with women`s issues. Read articles in the Herald and Newsline, and even Dawn that report on rape. Read some feminsit literature on sexual abuse. If you need references, I will be happy to dig them up for you. but if you are not interested in knowing -- whatever you reasons -- then please dont try to silence those who have the courage to talk about these things. This forum should be a safe space for everyone to write about their experiences and what they think is important.

Re SR

Thank you for your informed and informative (as usual) comments. I agree that comparative statistics on South Asian versus US cases of abuse would be helpful. The problem is that domestic violence is generally under-reported. It is enormously so in the South Asian community as it is considered `taboo` and women dont know how/where to seek help. A lot of them dont come out unless they have almost been murdered by their husbands or been abandoned or kicked out of the house. But, let me see if I can get some statistics.

There you go again!

Filthy mind at work. Miss or Mr, whoever you are, it`s not that you didn`t see these things before. This and that exists everywhere and existed all the time in all the societies. The difference between then and now is that now you wanted to see the filth and you found it.

Don`t you get it? Filthy mind finds the filth and filthiest mind scatters that filth all over the place, right in the chowk.

Welcome aboard.

BG : Wed Apr 29 14:30:56 1998
(“...sexual repression messes us up ...we all grew up in pakistan, with distorted notions of sex and sexuality and we have our hang ups and guilt...people dont become abusive because they are sexually repressed...”)

Thank you for being the voice of reason yet again. As I read through the messages, most gentlemen were focusing away from the ‘abuse and violence’ aspect and projecting more on to the ‘sexual repression’ theme. Though the latter is very relevant and important, it was not the thrust of the article.

(“...in the US. sexual abusers ... in 95% of domestic violence ...(rape).. are men... dont know the statistics on Pakistan... lot of domestic abuse in the South Asian community in the US... one out of every four South Asian ... immigrant women who don’t know the language are isolated from the larger society and ... dependent on abusers... anyway, the point is that i would not be surprised if things in pakistan were comparable...”)

The question to ask is whether the South Asians in the US have a higher or lower incidence than the US population at large? It will be a telling clue as to the real situation back home. I am willing to bet the farm, that bad as things are in the US, they won’t be better in the Subcontinent.

Rehan Rizvi : Tue Apr 28 19:28:31 1998
(“...unless we are provided with some serious statistical study ... we are left to ponder about the scope of such a problem. ...like any society, you have a Bell Shaped Curve that can explain it. The bulk of population falls under the average or normal curve, and the extremes are found on each side of the curve. ... it doesn`t mean that the whole country is going haywire...”)

All bell curves are not the same. The standard deviation (a critical measure of variability) is what determines how close to average or far away from it the observations are. In Pakistan’s case variability could be narrow or extremely wide, we don’t know. The proverbial example of a person with ‘feet in the oven and head in the freezer’ has an average temperature around his waist which is meaningless in describing his condition.

From everything else we’ve seen there is no reason to be satisfied that, until proved otherwise, this is not the norm. For all we know the whole country could very well be going haywire.

Reader : Tue Apr 28 11:28:21 1998
(“...husband did ... a favor... hacking her to death ...[instead of] being stoned to death [ the punishment prescribed by Islam for adulterers ]...”)

In all fairness, it has to be acknowledged that the standard for proof to convict anyone of a sex crime is pretty rigid. This was also hinted at by temporal : Tue Apr 28 19:47:51 1998 (“...And Islam is one of the most sexually liberal religion...”)

Four eye witnesses are required (surat al-Noor) and if such witnesses are not available the accuser gets eight lashes for false charges. “Like a rope enters a well” is the clarification given in Hadis, as to what the eye witnesses must be able to attest to.

In the case of a husband accusing his wife the standard of proof is different. There only his testimony is considered evidence. However, and hats off to the Prophet for leaving this loophole, he says in the very next verse (also surat al-Noor) that if the wife refutes the charges and gives solemn testimony as to her innocence, then SHE IS NOT TO BE PUNISHED. This is, as far as I know, the only instance in which the legal testimony of a woman (wife) can override and nullify the man’s (husband’s) testimony. The only way a wife gets the final punishment (according to the Quran) is if she does not testify in her innocence and lets the husband’s accusation stand.

However, confusion exists because an earlier verse gave the husband the right to imprison his wife in the house (for suspicion of lewdness) till death takes her or until another punishment is devised ‘by God’. This the Prophet mentions in surat al-Nisa. Later on in the Quran (chronologically, of course, and not as Quran’s surats are organized) the punishment for adultery was ordained to be one hundred lashes. There is no mention of stoning to death for adultery in Quran. That was supposedly a non-Quranic injunction of the Prophet as reported in a particular case of self-confessed adultery (al-Bokhari). The scholars, on this basis, take this ayat (of 100 lashes) to mean to be used for ‘fornication by unmarried people’ only, but that is not what the Quran actually says. The only three mentions of stoning in the Quran are in reference to stories being told about various prophets (Ibrahim, Shuaib and Noouh -- in surat: Hud, Murrium and Shuaraa) who were threatened by stoning at various times.

The purpose of pointing this out was that we cannot blame all ills on the primitiveness of the Islamic law. The cultural ignorance and poverty makes it worse than it should have been.

Azam Khan : Wed Apr 29 12:21:53 1998
(“...satellite programming from all over the world is going to further confuse our young...”)

Would you rather that the young be ‘protected’ from all foreign information? North Korea has the distinction of having done that, but then they have also managed to starve their people.

Monis Rahman : Wed Apr 29 9:05:46 1998
(“...I remember attending a party... Blew my mind that this was the same Pakistan I had lived in but never seen...”)

My experiences are much the same. Returning from the West one often feels like Rip van Winkle who returned to his familiar but totally changed village.


Asim Hayat : Tue Apr 28 9:32:14 1998

As always, there is such sincere passion in your writings.

(“...how did we manage to be the fastest reproducing country...Perhaps the little
Green Gnomes from outerspace were at work....”)

Perhaps you didn’t know, Green Gnomes have been a staple in Pakistani folklore. Only they were not know to be Gnomes, but were thought of as ‘holy spirits’ or something. The term often used was ‘sabz posh’ (Wearing Green). This phenomenon was observed during September 1965 and then during December 1971. The job of these ‘sabz posh’ being was to intercept the bombs of the Indian Air Force in mid-flight and either (1) land them safely, without exploding, or (2) divert them from their target, be it a bridge or a railroad line.

...SR

These stories take a stab at the self-righteous skin of our society and give a glimpse of the hypocrisy which exists underneath. We should try to distinguish two separate cases here...forced and consentual sex. Every society has its fair share of men who will not think twice before forcing themselves on someone as long as they can get away with it. And in our own society, more often than not, they can. One of the replies asked for a prescription...the article was not about solutions but was to make us look at a problem in our society we rather not address...one prescription is to take steps to make sure these people cannot get away. Consentual sex will continue to go on whether we like it or not...it is a natural instinct and it is probably better to accept it and be more open to it than to cry about it.

re: everyone

i must caution everyone who is confusing sex with abuse and violence. rape, abuse and violence are more about power than about sex and desire.

a man who takes a woman`s silence or `no` to mean yes may be acting out his own desire based on his power in society.

a man who sodomizes his wife and beats her up and rapes her is also abusing his power in the relationship and society, but in most cases the rape is not about sexual desire.

and people who rape their own children, and defecate on them and beat them up -- is that about sex and desire? i certainly dont think so.

sexual repression messes us up because we are brought up to feel guilty about our feelings and our bodies (if we are women) and to objectify and disrespect women (if we are heterosexual males). we all grew up in pakistan, with distorted notions of sex and sexuality and we have our hang ups and guilt, but not all of us are sexually abusive. people dont become abusive because they are sexually repressed. i dont know why they do, but the answer is probably as complex as any answer that tries to address issues of violence in human behaviour.

I have some information on abuse in the US. sexual abusers are predominantly men: the abusers in 95% of domestic violence situations(where rape is almost always the case) are men; in the US the home is the unsafest place for women and children; it is where women and children suffer the most violence. in fact, in the US women who are victims of homicide are most often killed by a husband or boyfriend or ex-husband/boyfriend. I dont know the statistics on Pakistan, but I know there is a lot of domestic abuse in the South Asian community in the US. A woman who works for an Asian community organization told me that as many as one out of every four South Asian women is in a violent relationship. Things are worse for immigrant women who dont know the language are isolated from the larger society and community (often deliberately by their abusers)and dependent on abusers for immigration status and income.

... anyway, the point is that i would not be surprised if things in pakistan were comparable. We have all heard of `stove deaths`, karo kari, etc. AA`s experience is not that shocking or unbelievable at all. the topic has been covered, not as graphically of course, in Newsline and the Herald. In fact Herald did a special issue on Rape 5 or 6 years ago. but, it is very important and courageous that AA shared it with us in this forum.

Hats off to Chowkwallahs for publishing this. And thank you AA for dispelling the myth of ``Pak-istan``. Let those who blame the West for tolerating ``extreme`` pleasure read this and make up their minds whether stoning and flogging people is going to suppress the most primal human instinct.

MNI

re M.T.

Tell this story now that you know there are people who will listen.

regards,
BG

re MAK

hey, interact won`t let me submit a reply with the word eff yew see kay. You try it and see (I am not that prudish ;) )

Thank you for sharing your internship experience, AA. I wonder if the organization that sponsored you keeps data on all the victims it sees, and if it could be compiled into some kind of report and pubished. As Pakistan has the potent mix of poverty, sexual repression, and female subordination, one would expect that sexual abuse is a very common occurrence. A formal study would go a long way in identifying the extent of the problem.

Anita

AA -good article, what kind of work did you do
in pakistan, with sexually abused persons?
altaf

It`s about time we start dispelling the myths surrounding our society. I think that that is the first step to progress- when we accept the truth and deal with it. Avoiding the issues do us little good.

It takes guts to write an article like ``AA`` has. Hats off to you. I hope that your article will cause many other readers to shed their naiveté as well.

I`d seriously suggest submitting your article to some Pakistani publications. Sure they`ll hack it to piecces, but so long as the central theme makes it through, it`ll do a world of good.

Finally, I hope you will respond to the flak that your article will (has) generated- themes like this need to be thrashed out in the open more.

Best regards,

Faraz

To all those who may have been offended by the use of the infamous ``F`` words in this article, simmer down. Here is a brief and interesting yet clean genealogy of the 4-letter F-word ...

Archery, it seems has been a major contributor to language and favorite terms as the following
dialogue shows. As you can tell we were discussing favorite woods. Yew. Yes yew and some of yew may ask why:

Before the Battle of Agincourt in 1415, the French, anticipating victory over the English, proposed to cut off the middle finger of all captured English soldiers. Without the middle finger it would be impossible to draw the renowned English longbow and therefore be incapable of fighting in the future.

This famous weapon was made of the native English Yew tree, and the act of drawing the longbow was known as ``plucking the yew`` (or ``pluck yew``).
Much to the bewilderment of the French, the English won a major upset and began mocking the French by waving their middle fingers at the defeated French, saying, ``See, we can still pluck yew! PLUCK YEW!``

Over the years some `folk etymologies` have grown up around this symbolic gesture. Since `pluck yew` is rather difficult to say (like ``pleasant
mother pheasant plucker``, which is who you had to go to for the feathers used on the arrows for the longbow), the difficult consonant cluster at
the beginning has gradually changed to a labiodental fricative `F`, and thus the words often used in conjunction with the one-finger-salute are mistakenly thought to have something to do with an intimate encounter. It
is also because of the pheasant feathers on the arrows that the symbolic gesture is known as ``giving the bird``

Thank yew :)-

AA
Tauba! Tauba!
Yeh batain Paakistan ki to nahin ho sakhtee hain.

Yeh zaroor Napaak-istan ki hongi!

In the land of the pure
happens not such things
your fertile imagination
is overworked for sure

Sodom & Gomorrah revisited? Nah!

On a more serious note: this is just the tip.

Various other factors to consider:
proliferation of drugs
abscences of head of the family
jahez, housing, pay
education
(not the pseudo degrees: but the kind
the opens vistas in the mind

And Islam is one of the most sexually liberal religion. (No pun or condescension implied).

Hi Everybody,
Just to clarify, none of the stories are fictional and all the people mentioned are for real. Like I wrote at the end of the piece, most accounts emerged during a three month internship in Pakistan where I worked with and was exposed to victims of sexual abuse. You`re right, the title should probably not be what it is, since the stories are mostly about sexual abuse, power, class difference, and violence. But I guess, aside from the violence and I wanted the sexual ambiguity and the repression to be reflected through these stories.

As for language, I don`t enjoy using such words for impact or for any other reason. When I reread, I had a strong urge to censor, but stuck with the words which I wrote instinctively. Also, I wouldn`t know where to start to censor. I could remove two words, then some entire stories. I simply wrote it for a few friends to read. One friend told me about Chowk, so I posted.

Re: Language etc.,

Lets keep the interaction focussed on theme of the article instead of on two words in it. Some people have said it was a bit thick, others think it was alright. Lets leave it at that.

Re: Bad Girl

Hi there bad girl ;) Yes thats true almost everyone on Chowk surprised to see so liberal and open article as this never happened before. You hope all readers are adults and so am I, but Is this OK to adults to use coarse language? Contrary to your own statement you couldnt write the very high rated word and just used / *uck why?? Seems to me you like to read that kind of stuff but avoid to use them openly. Isn`t it ;)

regards.

MAK

Dear AA,

thank you for writing about your experiences in pakistan. it takes a lot of courage to write about these things.

even though you entitled your peice, sex everywhere, what you focussed on was violent and abusive sex, where children, women and transegenders are the targets of violence disguised as sex.

the bit about the college students is just a reflection of the unhealthy relationship we have with sex in our society and what we call the gendered double standard: what`s sauce for the goose is poison for the gander.

comments??

RE EVERYONE WHO IS SHOCKED AT THE LANGUAGE

i dont understand what the big deal is about. hopefully, we are all adults and know about what goes on in the world and know the meaning of these words. the author used the words deliberately to get her/his message across. the article would not have been as accurate and as effective if s/he had used `make love` for *uck. as someone else said, if the strong language was not directed at anyone personally, then what`s the harm? and whatever happened to the freedom cyber-speech. please, lets not get so prudish.

The article is interseting although the author used very coarse language and he could have used some alternative literary words.

The incidents described in the article should not be preposterous in such a muslim state like Pakistan where `AAWAY KA AAWA BIGRA HUA HAY`. I was told numerous events happened in Jinnah Hospital in Karachi where doctors and nurses involve such odious and nefarious crimes. Some of my friends told about certain Public Call Office in Gulshan-e-Iqbal where the lascivious owners and their unscrupulous friends enjoy with notorious girls just inside partition of their office. They are not call girls or prostitutes but just `lovers` who attract to ignominious moves breaching their faiths, religion, culture, confidence and own dignity. Similarly a Pakistani `well respected lady` from UK resides in DHS in Karachi calls a `special man` for `special job` each time she visits. The author unveiled those plights explicitly with rated `R` words but didnt come up on any conclusion as what he wanted to say by describing all of them? The title has not been selected properly as if sex is available every where that is openly on streets. Some bad instances can never be generalized and never reflect the attitude of a society.

On Morality of Sexual Issues In Pakistan

AA,
Bravo. Kudos to you for having taken a very strong stance in highlighting a supposed non-problem of Pakistan, that of the perception of morality on sexual issues, imposed by, the administration, the government, the society and finally by us all, the icons of uprightness, and self-righteousness.

Breaking the taboos associated with our society is a positive step forward i feel. It`s only by healthy and purposeful debate one can overcome the baseless fears/taboos which bind ignorant people together, in sheer abject ignorance, and help them break away from such bonds to become individuals. Such Individuals can exercise their mind(a great gift from Allah), to think and find the way to absolute truth. The only problem is that although this system works universally, it is not going to work in Pakistan, as always due to the number one problem; lack of reasonable education for the masses. Education dispels myths, fears, but a lack of it, generates doubt, mistrust,and fear of the unknown. Until widescale education becoms a norm rather than the fictitious, and highly optimistic literacy rate of 35% flaunted, such a venue for interaction of dispelling taboos,i.e the way of convincing debate/ideas can be of little use, except for flights of fantasy of the intelligensia of Pakistan.

Farouq
You have asked a valid question as to whether the article deals with facts or fiction. My own feeling is that perhaps it is fiction hovering over the truth, and most likely the truth itself.

Amir

My reaction to reading the article, almost at the beginning, about the use and choice of descriptive/graphic language was similar to yours, and for a brief moment i was resolute in raising my voice to Umair K., for having this one slip by the censor controls... But later i felt such graphic language actually conveys the shocking truth, the senselessness, the degradation, the shame, the death of morality, the abuse of poor, unsuspecting female servants, the promiscuous behaviour of our youth, or the ``post-act`` analytical procedures to see if some piece of tissue is still intact, very appropriately. In Pakistan sex is considered reprehensible, and perhaps it is better to be caught dead then seeing enjoying it... In fact i too wondered when i was growing up, as to how did we manage to be the fastest reproducing country, with little or no signs of promiscuity or even without mentioning the word sex in our daily lives..Perhaps the little Green Gnomes from outerspace were at work.....and only in Pakistan, on special contract!!! :)

Generally speaking, most of the Sexual education one gets in Pakistan, is at the school one goes to. Be it in the form of private pornography videos, being seen on School premises/boarding houses, or girlie magazines shared amongst close friends, or reading lewd literature, affectionately called by pakistanis as ``fahash literature``. It also shows the hierarchy of the class System in Pakistan, in going from Full Action Videos(closest to the real thing)or doing the real thing, to colour photographs (a two dimensional view of the real thing), to reading about the stuff.. ( a poor mans solution using ones imagination)..Of course youngsters are the same everywhere, be it a pubescent boy in Denmark, or one in Lahore. In case of the boy in Denmark, he will have loads of information available to him about the pros and cons of doing the ``stuff``, and is more informed and mature in making a judgemnet call to protect him and his partner. In Pakistan, apart from the upper classes, with resources and access to information, the boy does not know a lot more than his imagination excites him, and safety, caution, etc is furthest from his mind. Also the attitude at home and outside, by the grownups to dissuade him from indulging in any unmentionable actions is so vehement and strong, that the opposite happens to make the felow curious. Its the Adams`s apple story in action, basic human nature. One wants to find out, at whatever cost. Some get lucky, some don`t. Those who do, make it a point of spreading the word around, about their being ``studs``, and making the others jealous... Then it becomes a struggle, a race to do it at all costs, be it having to visit 5-star Hotel or the roadsite damsel,or the usual haunts of such creatures... depending on their stand in society.... This is the stage where caring, smart boys start to metamorphise into the cruel, heartless people later, building their perceptions about women, as they are disposable items, to be used, paid for, and chucked away....Perhaps parents are to be blamed for such callousness for not talking to their wards at this critical stage about the facts of life, one to one, not as a father to son, but as an experienced friend to a novice friend, in an congenial, atmosphere.....rather than leaving their wards to learn for themselves in the jungle out there....and later cry and weep, that they lost a son to Aids, or still be proud of a son, who abuses and violates the sanctity of women under his protection!!!!!I hold the parents, specially the ``very-rich`` ones responsible for their wards actions, by not controlling their wards, by setting limits on his financial independence....

Forget about Television, Mr Aliani, such incidents would be very fortunate to even make it to the inner most page 6 or 7 in a two line, small headline on a major newspaper. For we in the land of the pure are very selective in what we do and do not want to see, read, or hear. The media in Pakistan, as i indicated earlier in my essay on plight of rural women, is not exactly world class, or after setting award winning journalism records. Besides being manipulated by those obviously with power, it has to appeal to the ``hollow morality`` of its readers, thats people like you and me, who will be outraged today, if the very same article was printed in a newspaper in Pakistan. We are the self anointed contractors of morality (Shurafaat ke thekedar), and we will condemn all that this disturbed, conscientious, lady has written (i have a feeling its actually a lady who has written this article.. based on ceertain vibes.. i maybe very wrong), with one wave of the hand as ``fahash``...

Its indeed an interesting quote fromm Salman Rushdie. Perhaps it will explain the fact, that covering ones eyes wont make the wrong go away, it`s just that one would not see it happening in broad daylight!!! There is no denying there is prostitution in Islamabad Guest Houses, there is no denying that number of young People of Pakistan suffering from Aids is rising (not officially admitted), there`s no denying that cases like the one quoted about the master abusing the servants girl do happen, there is no denying that group orgy sessions do happen, that sodomisation in a country, where the women are not easily accessible to interact with, meet, talk or just spend some time with, will prevail, where the cost of getting married is so high often young men with jobs going nowhere, might give up the thought of remaining celibate and move over to the other side (as Seinfeld calls the homosexuality area). But what is wrong however is to deny the wrongs, and live in a utopia that that we from the land of the pure do not have such problems as mentioned here......

Umer

You are right, that Scandinavia too has its set of problems, But unlike Pakistan, the morality police does not go around checking if girls are virgin or not, after they are 16, or get prosecuted for zina and later probably disposed of,,,,. The Scandinavians still treat their prostitutes with respect, ok, its a pathetic and degrading way to earn a living, from your or my point of view, but that does not give you or me a right to be abusive to them, to ridicule them to make them look insignificant and paltry. That does not mean giving the police woman a right to denying that prostitute a glass of water. It can be guaranteed that if the whore from Denmark, say, is locked up in state prison, she would not be in all probability be raped/abused by the police rakhwallahs there, but can you be 100% sure to say that the police rakhwalahs will not try to take advantage of that helpless girl in a Pakistani Prison, going on the typical premise/argument `` You are a whore, why should you deny me....a freebie``. That Sir is the difference!!!!!

Indeed you are right, the lower classes have to rely on women working power to make ends meet. Hence a lot of them are actually more visible nowadays, in order to supplement the family income, and its here that they are at their most vulnerable, with having no voice of resilience, or authority, to say NO to the vultures, (thats people like you and me), circling over their head trying to select an opportune time to strike, and then later gloat over the gory details with our other reputable friends...

Such is the dilemma of our country. Indeed we talk about its problems, and sometimes we are exactly responsible for the problems, indirectly or directly, like Umer Sahib Says!!

Good Article AA

Regards

Asim

Very jarring but very true.
We all must have seen instances quite close to ones mentioned here but chose to ignore it or consider it `out of ordinary`. How `out of ordinary` it is, is unknown.
Rather than criticize the author and the language used (which is very appropriate to poin t out the gravity of the situation), we need to seriously criticise the environment which fosters such inhumanity.

Hats off to the author to have the courage to write on such a taboo issue and to write so well and to the Chowk staff who help bring such topics to discussion.