Intolerance in Official Practice

Re: Uzzam, #54

There is plenty of historical evidence of this fact (Jesus dying in Kashmir at the age 120 yrs.), but has been suppressed due to the critical nature of this issue. You must also ask yourself, if Jesus is still alive, and exists in flesh and blood, in his physical form, how come he still has not returned? The 14th century has ended, but where is the Promised Messiah? And where is the Imam Mahdi? Tell me … what is your belief about the return of Messiah? About the Imam Mahdi? About the Dajaal? When and how are these individuals supposed to appear, and what will they do when they do appear? I would like to hear your interpretation of these issues.

The issue of Prophet Jesus (peace be upon him) physically ascending to the sky is based upon misinterpretation of the Quranic verses. Mr. Shahid Aziz in response #53 have cited numerous verses from Quran which testify to the fact that Prophet Jesus (peace be upon him) has passed away, just like all the other Prophets of Allah before him. Let me hear what you have to say about those references from Quran?

You incorrectly accuse Ahmadis of changing their beliefs by citing “loose” examples. There has been a lot of propaganda against Ahamdis in the past, and continues to this day. For example, we have been accused of being British agents by some, Israeli agents by others; we have been accused of being involved in international drug cartel; people also have spread rumors about Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (peace be upon him) of dying in a toilet. These are mere fabrications and lies spun by the ignorant and the foolish against the Ahmadi community. Do your homework …… pick up the literature published by the Ahmadi community and stop relying on the stuff handed to you by the ignorant fools and the mullahs. In the writings of Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (peace be upon him) you’ll see how he considers himself a humble slave to Prophet Mohammad (peace and blessings be upon him), and how much importance he gives to studying Quran, praying, and begging Allah for His blessings and forgiveness. Do not take my word on this. Read on your own and find out.

Asad Sattar

This reply is for all the the readers specially Qadianis..

First of all i refer to Qadianies community it was funny to see that they found jessus tomb in kashmir although there is no historical evidence about this fact. I had heard about this before. however this fact was not oly proved wrong by many muslim scholars but also Christian comunity like Bishop Jacob ronn of Vatican City. The famouse urdu Drama writer Abdul Haleem Sharar also had proved it historicaly that the tomb(as it became later)was originally the last place of fredom fighter from central Asia who died there in a war of independence. I dont think that any man,s tomb with the name Jesus(Isa) will became the tomb Of Jesus Christ (PBUH).

The Qadian movement was specially took turn when in early ninteenth century a movement of ``Kashmir Chaloo`` ((GO Kashmir) was begin & they convinced Allama Iqbal to b its coveyer but it soon lost its popularity when Iqbal noticed the fact behind this movement & cameoutfrom this movement.

The Qadiyanis should not hide the fact that they hav been changing there beleifs from time to time for example about the Jins(evils),Phrophet hoodness of Ghulam Muhamad Qadiani & than again changing its Philosphy,similiarly the concept of death of Jesus Christ & Imam Mehdi (PBUH) & then at the begning of qadiyanism they declared that all other people other then qadianis r non muslims & then after early 50s they declared that they r also muslims along with others.These things simply show how that religion can hav perfect foundaton which changes from time to time even before it celebrates it 100th birthday.

I wanna make it clear that it was the qadiyanies themselve descriminated themselves from other communities for example when the qadiyani leader Sir Zafrulah was asked to say the last pray of Qaud-e-Azam (R-A) he simply refused by saying that either consider the Quaid as non muslim or consider me as non muslim.

Most of the Qadiyanis dont accept the law declaring that they shuld b considered as non Muslims but i want an answere about the declaration of them to b non Muslims by the secular supreame courts of South Africa ,Gambia & some other coutries by non Muslim judges becaz i dont think that any Mullah as mob into there courts.

I m not pleased with any religious intolerance any where in the world also in pakistan with christian or hindu or any other nonmuslim community becaz i think that they r Pakistani & lov to b here work for its prosperity. But what about religious intolereance in Palestine, Kosovo, Philipines ,Kashmir, Chechnya, & many western countries like in France & Spain (who claim to b the secular) where some of my relatives live. They told that in some places where there is sizable Muslim Population & they want to hav Mosques there but they r abondand by the law from the orders of government.

In one the reply to this article i read that someone wrote that the Quaid was Ismaili it is absoluely not truth becaz when the Ismailis Moulvis & Shite asked Miss Fatima jinnah to hand over his body to us becaz he belonged to us & let us to do his last prays according to our beleif She gave them the letter declaring that my Nimaz-e-jinazah must b read bu Mualana Shabir Ahmed Usmani (who was sunni)my Grand father Raghib Ahsan who was a leader of Pakistan movement (& was the only Politician who hav writen & recieved the highest number of letters from Quaid)had several letters that contained material that shows the Quaids beleif.

If u hav any comment do write me at

tatom@shoa.net

Uzzam Hasni

The fundamental difference between Muslims belonging to the Ahmadiyya Anjuman Ishaat Islam and others

relates to the death of the prophet Jesus. Those outside the jamaat generally believe that God has taken Jesus

to heaven with his living body and he still lives in the heavens. We believe that the prophet Jesus died a

natural death but not on the cross. This is the foundation stone of Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad’s claim to

being the Promised Messiah. Hazrat Mirza sahib said that because Jesus had died a natural death, he was the

Messiah spoken of in the prophecies of the Holy Prophet Muhammad. Thus, if it can be proven from the

Holy Quran that Jesus is still alive in the heavens, Mirza sahib’s claim is false. On the other hand, if the death

of Jesus can be proven from the Holy Quran then we are right. Below some verses of the Holy Quran are

given which speak of the death of Jesus or from which it may be argued that Jesus died a natural death. I

request all brothers and sisters to think about these verses without prejudice because on the day of judgement

we will each be responsible for our own beliefs and we will not be able to blame our religious leaders.

(1) “When Allah said: O Jesus, I will cause you to die and exalt thee in my presence . . .” (3:54)

Here the Holy Quran says that first Jesus will die and then “rafa” (raising) will take place. The Arabic word

used here for death is “mutawaffika” which literally means “to take”. Where ever this word is used in

relation to God taking man, it invariably means that God took the man’s soul or caused him to die. Indeed, it

is a common idiom of English language that when we speak of some one’s death we say: God took him.

When Hazrat Ibn Abbas was asked what the word “mutawaffi-ka”means in this verse, he told the inquirer to

read the verse replacing “mutawaffika” with the word “mumi-tika” which literally means “to die”.

(2) “And I was a witness of them so long as I was among them, but when Thou didst cause me to die

Thou wast the Watcher over them.” (5:117)

The Holy Quran tells us that this is the reply prophet Jesus will give when, on the day of Judgement, Allah

asks him if he asked his followers to take as Gods himself and his mother. It shows that the Christian beliefs

changed after the death of Jesus. If Jesus is still alive then surely Christian beliefs have not altered and Jesus

indeed is the Son of God and Mary, the Mother of God.

(3) “And those whom they call on besides Allah created naught, while they are themselves created.

Dead are they, not living. And they know not when they will be raised.” (16:20,21)

The one who is called upon most in prayers is Jesus son of Mary. Here Allah not only clearly rebuts the

Christian belief that Jesus can help them in any way but also states that he is dead.

(4) “The Messiah, son of Mary, was only a messenger: messengers before him have indeed passed

away. . . . They both used to eat food. See how We make messages clear to them!” (5:75)

Here Jesus is clearly included among other prophets. If one is going to argue that it states that messengers

who appeared before Jesus are the ones who are dead, not Jesus; how will the follwing verse be interpreted.

“And Muhammad is but a messenger — messengers have already passed away before him.” (3:143)

Would you say that this verse says that the Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) is alive and only

the prophets who appeared before him have passed away! Even if you say this surely Jesus would still be

among the prophets who are dead because the verse 3:143 clearly says that messengers who appeared before

the Holy Prophet Muhammad have passed away. Whatever argument you use when considering these verses,

you can only come to the conclusion that Jesus died.

(5) “And as for their saying: We have killed the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, the messenger of Allah,

and they killed him not, nor did they cause his death on the cross, but he was made to appear to them

as such. . . .” (4:157)

Here too the Holy Quran merely says that the Jews neither succeeded in killing Jesus nor he died on the

cross. It does not say that he was never put on the cross but that he was made to appear to them as if he was

dead. This statement is consistent with what we find in the New Testament.

(6) “And they say : We will by no means believe in thee, till thou . . . ascend into heaven. . . Say : Glory

be to my Lord! Am I aught but a mortal messenger” (17:93)

The disbelievers of Makkah made this demand of the Holy Prophet Muhammad. They told him that they will

accept him if he ascends the heavens and brings down a book. Allah Directs the Holy Prophet Muhammad to

reply saying that he is just a mortal, a messenger of Allah and being a mortal it is not possible for him to

ascend to the heavens. This establishes the principle that, if it was not possible for the Holy Prophet to

ascend into the heavens then no other mortal can do so either. It also means that if a mortal ascends into the

heavens then he will be superior the the Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). People who insist

that Jesus was bodily taken up to the heavens but Allah refused to take up the Holy Prophet, now have

to answer this question. Who is superior, the Holy Prophet Muhammad or Jesus?

(7) “. . . And you will find no change in the laws of Allah . . .” (33:62)

God’s laws are the same for every thing in the universe. The law for living things is that they are born, grow

and then die. Here the Holy Quran clearly states that there is no exception to this.

(8) “And we granted abiding for ever to no mortal before thee . . . Every soul must taste of death”

(21:34,35)

Having said that God’s laws are the same for all living creatures, we are told that God has not created any

human being who will live for ever. If it is said that just because Jesus is not dead yet, it does not mean he

will never die then the question is : Where is he now? Jesus cannot ascend to the heavens because it is impossible for a

mortal to do so (see above). That only leaves the possibility that, if he has ascended to heavens, Jesus must

be a part of Godhead, as the Christians believe.

These are a few of the many verses which clearly show that if Jesus was a mortal, he must have died a natural

death. To prove that Jesus died a natural death demolishes completely the whole eddifice of Christian faith.

Many non-Ahmadi Muslims have now also come to the same conclusion such as Sir Syed Ahmad Khan,

Ghulam Ahmad Parvaiz, Muhammad Asad etc. Indeed, Allama Yusuf Ali clearly said the same thing in his

first edition of the English translation of the Holy Quran.

WE, MEMBERS OF AHMADIYYA ANJUMAN ISHAAT ISLAM OF LAHORE, BELIEVE THAT

· There is only one God, unique in all His attributes and possessor of all good.

· The Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) was the last messenger and prophet of

Allah after whom there will not appear any prophet, old or new.

· Those who recite the Kalimah and do not label others as kafir are Muslims.

· We will be judged by our actions, not by mere profession of a creed.

· Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, the founder of the Ahmadiyya Movement in Islam was a

servant of the Holy Prophet Muhammad who was raised by Allah to revive the faith of the

Muslims in their religion. He was the reformer, saviour and guide who, the Holy Prophet

Muhammad promised, shall appear in the fourteenth century of Hijra to lead Muslims to

victory at the time of the final conflict between Islam and other philosophies.

The paradox is obvious in the claims that on one hand Jinnah was secular and on the other hand he used the two-nation theory as a basis for Pakistan`s creation.

I personally think that the paradox can be resolved based on perspective. Even though Jinnah
(sorry, I meant Quaid-e-Azam Rahmatullah Alaih)was secular, he didn`t trust the secularism preached by the Indian Congress. He was perhaps convinced that in a secular united India, Muslims would be persecuted in a major fashion, which was anathema to his secular beliefs. His convictions were indeed well-founded. He must have envisaged a working secular state in the formation of Pakistan based mostly on his higher opinion of and his level of trust in the tolerant nature of Muslims of the sub-continent. Perhaps this conviction wasn`t as well-founded.

As all evidence suggests, he wasn`t particularly interested in Islam as a religion. It just happened to be the tool which would deliver the desired results.

Personally, I am waiting for a Buddhist invasion.

Re: Zoq

Yes, it`s a sad state of affairs that the religious/spiritual lives of so many people around the world (Muslims, Christians, Jews, Hindus, etc.) are sabotaged by fanatic, uneducated elements. I think most intelligent people don`t pursue a life of religious scholarship because there is little money or prestige in it any longer (unless you happen to be a charlatan televangelist or a charlatan new age guru like Deepak Chopra). Most people can`t expect to make a decent living by studying and preaching religion, and that`s the way it should be. Intelligent individuals should be studying the sciences, medicine, engineering, informatics, business, law, etc., as they do, and then should apply the principles of reason, rationality, observation, and experience that they acquire from these disciplines to their religious/spiritual understanding. I`m always bewildered when I meet brilliant scientists, engineers, or physicians who exemplify rational inquiry and thinking in their professional lives yet espouse the most irrational and dogmatic religious beliefs. It`s like they`re living schizophrenic lives.

Just some idle thoughts on a late Thursday night after watching a very disappointing `Seinfeld` series finale...

Salaam All

Religion is a very personal matter, and persuction based on someone`s beleifs is simply ridiculous. However, it should be noted that Ahmadi community has been very vocal about their religion all the way. As a proof, just looking at this page will reveal their consistency. On the contrary, a subtle inferiority complex seems to prevail the orthodox muslims` comments. Isn`t it strange? ARE YOU GUYS ASHAMED OF YOUR RELIGION, just because a bunch of obnoxious Mullahs claim to be its upkeepers! And my question is, why do you hate mullahism, which is a product of your own negligence and insoucience. Why didn`t you spare even the smallest share of your talents and energies to religious education and institutions, so the people would have a liberal mided religious leadership one day? Why did you let religious leadership fall into the hands of child abusers and wife bashers? Why is it that the people with highest IQ go to CS department while the theocracy dept. is left with a bunch of losers in the same college.


Let me cite a few names - two heavyweights of philosophy and rationality who very few `liberals` would like to refute on these grounds - Iqbal, and Ali Shariati. Both of them had exceptional IQ, impeccable `secular` education, and a large circle of equally good contemporaries. Without a doubt these two have inspired millions with their interpretation of religion, which is in no sense conformant with Mullahism. Do you know of a Mullah who was able to weild the same level of influence on masses?


So the question remains, do we see any Shariatis in making at Harvard or MIT?

How do Ahmedis view those Muslims who do not profess to their brand of faith? (Would appreciate a specific quote from Mirza Ghulam
Ahmed.)

regards

Those of you wondering why Ismailis are treated better than Ahmedis in Pakistan:

The Quaid was Ismaili.

Re: Asad Satar.

I know I am going off in a tangent here and may just spark off another totally different debate, but I am curious about the origins of facts you wrote on Jesus. Who decided all of it? Why is there such a radical difference from mainstream Islam on this? No offense, I am interested in knowing about the variations in Islam.

Where in Srinagar is he buried? I will go there and see. It is funny that all the religious relics end up in Kashmir. Last time, they were talking about Muhammad`s strand of hair and a prayer cloth in a shrine.

Thank you for bringing into stark relief the discrepancy between Jinnah`s vision of Pakistan and the current reality, I liked the juxtaposition in the article.

This insidious practice of the government is just another form of persecution of the Ahmedis. There have been instances of where Ahmedis/Qadianis have been imprisoned because they declared themselves to be muslims but then were ``caught`` at the airport trying to board a flight to go attend their annual ``jalsa`` overseas. Some of the other forms of discrimination/persecution include: Ahmadis can’t call their place of worship a masjid and are forced to erase the Kalma from their masjids. Just like the current government has legitimized extrajudicial killings under the Anti Terrorism Act (ATA), the same way it, and previous governments, has ``legalized`` the declaration of Ahmedis/Qadianis as non-muslims. (The Hudood Ordinance and Blasphemy laws are additional examples of legislation used to discriminate against women, minorities and other weaker members of Pakistani society)

One could argue that why don’t Ahmedis/Qadianis simply declare themselves non-muslims. Well, we all know the fate of most non-muslims in Pakistan. They have little or no representation in the political life of the country, thanks to the fixed number of few seats in the Assemblies; another example of official discrimination and oppression of the religious minorities.

(An aside: How does a ``non-muslim`` calling himself/herself a muslim weaken the faith of a ``true muslim``?)

This propaganda against the Ahmedis is not only confined to the realm of religion. Their loyalty to the country is constantly called into question. Every once in a while one hears calls for the ouster/purge of all Ahmedis/Qadianis from the government. This community has proudly served the interests of the country through individuals such as Sir Zafarullah Khan (Pakistan’s foreign minister and ambassador to the UN) and Dr. Abdus Salam, and many other unrecognized individuals.

While the elimination of these statements from the passport application would be a small victory, quite frankly, the question of religion needs to be eliminated entirely. Pressure needs to be applied on the government by various human rights groups, both Ahmedis/Qadiani and non-Ahmedi/Qadiani government officials and ordinary citizens. As some of the readers have already stated, not signing the statement would be a good start.

Anymore ideas, anyone?

Incidently, Ahmedis/Qadianis successfully thwarted an attempt to have them declared non-muslims in South Africa.

Is anyone out there an expert in Pakistani law? Pakistani Constitution has a fundamental rights chapter which, among many other things, allows for freedom of religion, association and prohibits discrimination against women and children. Then, there are Hudood laws and Blasphemy laws, which need to be repealed almost immediately. Also, many thanks to Zia, the freedom provisions of the constitution are strictly subject to the supreme law of the Quran.

But amidst all this messy legal ambiguity, can (and have) Ahmedis tried to bring a case against the government, that this statement on the passport application is discriminatory, hateful and completely intolerant? I know the political climate doesn`t allow these things to happen, but so many random things do happen, which one would think would be policed away instantly.

Anyway, just chiming in with a lot of similar reactions: that statement on the passport application is really irksome. Each time I`ve had to sign that line, I`ve had this really guilty sensation of perpetuating something very oppressive. But most of the time it is so urgent to get the little green booklet that you`re forced to overlook.

Revolution:

Be careful about advocating secularism. While it is true Jinnah was opposed to a religious state, and would be disgusted at the way minorities are treated in Pakistan today, he nevertheless saw a need for the Muslims of the subcontinent to have a separate nation. If you are advocating full fledged secularism than you are destroying the reason d`etre of Pakistan itself and implying that Partition was a mistake. Other than that I fully think that religion needs to serve as an identity for our country and not as its law.

As far as Nawaz Sharif`s email address is concerned. I am not sure how many of those emails he actually sees. The email is equipped with an auto reply system and as such may or may not have a human behind it to vet all the letters.

Comments or questions?
Embassy of Pakistan
Information Division
2315 MASSACHUSETTS AVE. N.W.
WASHINGTON D.C. 20008
202-939-6200
mailto:info@pakistan-embassy.com
URL:http://www.pakistan-embassy.com/

E-MAIL ADDRESSES OF OTHER PAKISTANI MISSIONS ABROAD
URL:http://www.pakistan-embassy.com/email.htm

Why stop at the Ahmedis?
What about the Bohris, the Ismailis?
What about the Maudoodis, Nooranis?
Pervezis, Jaaferis, Altafis?

Let us add some colour to the passport.

Violet for Pathans.
Indigo for Baluch.
Blue for Punjabis.
Green for Sindhis
Yellow for those on exit control list
Orange for expat Pakistanis
Red for Mohajirs.

Ofcourse, it goes without saying we should
also have matching Identity Cards.

And finally, Raza, what is the embassy`s
e-mail address?

regards

I totally agree with you Raza. What does a passport application have to do with whether I consider Qadianis Muslim or not? And apart from its obvious discriminatory nature, it is a ridiculous question anyway. What`s the declaration supposed to prove? It obviously is not a survey of how the Pakistani population views the issue, since the signature is required under duress. And I don`t see how my signature to this declaration helps the state. What do they do with the declaration - wave it in the face of the Ahmedi community to show them - see, this is how many people think you are not Muslim.

Anita