This Should Do It

Re: BG

Re my comment on lesbians being kinder and gentler towards other women than most straight women are: yup, that was a generalization on my part based only on personal experience over the last 26 years, but since you`ve studied the issue formally, I defer to your greater knowledge...

Re your displeasure with sex being used as a means of selling and inducing consumption: I totally agree. In a consumerist culture, anything that sells and creates profit is ethically acceptable or atleast value-neutral. Thus, promiscuity and sexual license become tolerable or even encouraged as non-threatening, GDP increasing activities. Sex becomes a commodity and loses its moral/social relevance. Sabrina hit the nail on the head when she said that much promiscuous behavior stems from a fear of intimacy. Consumerism plays well on this fear, reinforcing the need to fill the emptiness and lack of intimacy with things and more things. But that`s a topic for another article altogether... any takers??

Re your question about gay men being more well-groomed than straight guys:

:))))))

Not only are we more well-groomed, my dear, but we`re also more handsome, more intelligent, more charming, better dancers, more artistic, more sensitive, and better dressed! Yes, all you straight men out there could learn a lot from us. ;-)

Seriously, though, gay men are just like the rest of `em, perhaps a bit more vain since we all want to look like Antonio Sabato, Jr., but there are slobs among us as well...

I`ve thought about writing an article on growing up as a gay Pakistani Muslim (since there seems to be denial of the existence of such a creature), but I don`t know if the Chowk readership would be interested.

As for you heteros, perhaps you appear ``messed up`` because of the unbalanced portrayal of dysfunctional, unhappy heterosexual desi relationships presented on Chowk over the last year. Maybe someone needs to show us what a healthy Pakistani relationship is like...

Your article confirms my belief that at the tender age of twenty-two, it`s hard to be an authority on any subject except sex and men/women. Nevertheless, enjoyed reading it.

re shandana

i guess i misunderstood your piece. the narrator`s wit, intelligence and cynicism really threw me off. i was convinced that she was a strong and empowered woman, but i couldnt reconcile some of her attitudes and behaviours with each other. but, upon reflection, i see what you pointed out and am less confused.

re kafir
``Re BG: It`s true that women`s hatred toward other women is scary and sad, but only women can change that. As a gay man, I`m often privy to `girltalk` with my `girlfriends`, talk that straight men rarely ever hear, and I know that many women habitually backbite each other and put each other down out of jealousy and competition for male affection. They subconsciously feel that true worth comes from being attractive to and liked by men, and so they end up stepping on other women in order to achieve this status. ``

yes, but i dont agree that only women can change that. in a society that teaches you that true worth and power is relational, ie, you can only have it if you have access to a man, his approval and his power -- then women and their behaviour is rational within this logic. we are not going to suddenly wake up and realize it all on their own, but we are certainly the ones who have to fight for it.

by the way, is it true that gay men tend to be better groomed than your average straight guy? (if i`m just buying into a stereotype, i apologize in advance, but would appreciate some education)

kafir: ``Many lesbians, on the other hand, having no desire to be attractive to men, tend to treat other women much more kindly and less judgmentally (unfortunately, they also tend to dislike men more).``

i do not, absolutely DO NOT agree with this generalization. did you know that when i studied violence against women, there were a whole series of writings on domestic/partner violence within the lesbian community? i know some very kind and some really obnoxious lesbians/bisexual women. and similarly i know some heinous and some wonderful staright women.


kafir: ``I disagree that sex is overrated in our modern culture, though it is overemphasized as a source of happiness and fulfilment. Sex can be FABULOUS as an expression of genuine affection and love between two people, but it becomes boring and empty when seen as an end in itself or as a tool for control. But perhaps I`m just projecting my own feelings onto the issue. Perhaps some people, like the fictional narrator of Shandana`s piece, can simply enjoy the physical act without an emotional connection. Both are very human responses.``

i suppose we are talking about slightly different things. i am just sick and tired of popular culture preoccupation with sex as the end all and be all of everthing, especially as a means of selling and inducing consumption. of course, there are the related issues of misogyny, objectification, abuse, control, etc. that are societal distortions to sex. i happen to believe that sex is not purely a physical thing for humans, but, that`s just my opinion...

hey, watch out with the stereotyping and generalizations about us heteroes...you should know better than that ;-)

so, how does someone who so openly a man`s (men`s?) woman manage to settle down and get married? guess youll have to get used to bathroom bonding afterall, even if its of a different kind. i can see how you can talk of so many women out there who cant see your point of view and would retaliate to your actions and call you a slut, hence causing their level of moral rightiousness to take an unprecedented increase (`shock, horror! `look at her! she did WHAT? i couldnt never do THAT!`- and its prolly their loss that they never will), but they arent the only ones there, supposing there are two of the very same kind as your character. who steps on whose toes and does the one with the guy always win? just wondering. im sure youll have a scathing reply for me yet again. in the from of another story maybe? well, either way, i really liked scaly.

Excellent work!

Great piece to sit and discuss . . . not enough time though so perhaps next time. . . .

sabrina --

Well summarized. Character appears to have rationalized her chosen path.

Loved it.

Absolutely loved it.

I couldn`t really be bothered in dibble dabbling in the comments that have been swirling around your work and the ideas *frightful ideas * that it must have conjured. Although, I have to say that it was most definately a fantastic piece of work that was powerful enough to invoke such responses... two thumbs up!

-Uzma.

Shandy,

hi! my gosh. quite thrilled to read your stuff. you are a big shot writer now. congrats. enjoyed the stuff really.

mas

Shandana: Great article as always.

Re Kafir:

Speaking of which, you should check out Vanishing point by Sheldon Pacotti - you will find it interesting

re: sabrina.

Most women, or rather ppl, i know, need to label themselves in one category or anoother. it gives them a sense of belonging, i suppose. it has always been hard for me to find a category to place myself in and about five to six years ago, i made my own cateogory, the z.rizvi cateogory. this cateogry was devoid of what i considered myself ( paki?? american?? muslim??) or how old i was, if i wore hijab or not and what my favorite color was or not. it is a satisfying place to be and i have discovered that i dont need labels to place myself in. i go around telling other friends the same thing. most ppl cannot handle being left out in the open, defenseless and different. however, getting back to the point u made about my wanting to come out of the closet as a slut...well, just because i happen to love men, love looking at them, talking to them and being with them does not mean i sleep with them, or that anything goes beyond friendship. its also not sumthing women in general advertise about( being more comfortable with men then women)...becuz, it gets them labled as sluts :))) the reason slink`s piece was so great fer me was cuz, women are afraid to voice out loud what she voiced out loud. why are they afraid?...cuz they are sluts, who will live to be bitter old women in empty apartments, instead of mature women with their own lives, who prefer their own private space and time in which they can do what they want from reading, meditating, shopping, vegging, and possibly even at the bitter old age, find love. ( it takes some more time than others, but hey...atleast they will find it and if not, they arent stuck in some marraige that they regret but could care less about geting out of)

love is not sumthing that one should make one dimensional. there are so many many facets to it.

your response made me realize, sabrina, exactly why i dont look forward to talking to most women. thank you...i needed to be reminded of it once again :))

z.rizvi.

I found this piece interesting mainly because I recognise very well the character portrayed; a pitiable, obviously defensive and bitter woman who self-deludes herself into thinking that her grass although not fantastically greener than anything else possessed by another`s hands is still in better condition than others. Well, just what else can she do? If you are given something, you work with it. For instance small breasts. Same way with her attitude towards her fellow women and men. She belives her attitude was given her!

It is how she reacts towards them that determines how they respond to her. Sadly, she contents herself with delusions that her field of grass is meant to be grazed-by a herd of cows. Be forewarned that eventual barrenness will set in. How`s that for jadedness? For a woman in her forties and fifties? But nah, ain`t too contemporary to think that far ahead....



What suprises me are the responses by the readers.

Especially the one by the gushing woman, Zahra. Go ahead and label yourself a slut if you will. I will laugh (disparingly) at you and anyone else who imagines that declaring oneself with such labels wins one self-independence (from whatever neurotic insecurities bred within them over years) or even confidence. Nope! You know why the label becomes sacred? Just because deep down you know exactly a slut is what she is. And fearing you don`t really have a choice to be otherwise, that label becomes something to be championed.

Yeah right! Loving men and sex is normal. But doing it excessively signals a defect in the person. How about fear of intimacy-and I don`t mean spreading legs while standing on your head kind of intimacy.

Let us not make martyrs of people who know not what they are sacrificing themselves for.

Lust? Hell, that is one of the most safest thing to feel and to act upon. The stirring of your loins come and go. What is hard is staying in lust. Which is why parting ways is not often very difficult. It is the game of the cowards.

I had one for brunch (yeah late waker), tea and dinner. Throw in a midnight bite as well! Cool ain`t it. I love men. You love women. And the mutual service ensues, sometimes fondness is allowed in. But not too much..lest emotions get confused.

As for love, that`s entering a whole different field. The neurotic character scoffs at the image of a woman waiting for her man to return(from wherever), that only when he does, she becomes complete. What irony. She prefers returning to an empty dingy apartment perhaps reeking of the cologne her latest conquest had on. Does she strip the clothes off and wash away the remmants of his presence or savour triumphantly the fading moment from time to time in a closetful of such trophies?

Imagine this instead-walking into a room and knowing that your mere presence evokes something more than the gentleman`s salute. Knowing that your inclusion into that person`s domain makes a helluva difference. And trusting enough to be able to shed more layers than that which cover your physical nakedness.



Until you find that mutual feeling, you ain`t lived life yet. No matter how many brunches, teas and dinners you`ve had. Now that`s a game for the lions.

Having said that, I commend the writer! Brilliant piece of work. The voice of the character is true to life. It is that which makes this piece a gem.

Kudos to you:)

sabrina.

Kafir, I`m surprised the fundos haven`t jumped on you yet. Perhaps they were too traumatised by reading the story?

You certainly have done it! I`m surprised the fundies haven`t started attacking yet. Perhaps the honesty and temerity of your words have left them speechless...

Re BG: It`s true that women`s hatred toward other women is scary and sad, but only women can change that. As a gay man, I`m often privy to `girltalk` with my `girlfriends`, talk that straight men rarely ever hear, and I know that many women habitually backbite each other and put each other down out of jealousy and competition for male affection. They subconsciously feel that true worth comes from being attractive to and liked by men, and so they end up stepping on other women in order to achieve this status. Many lesbians, on the other hand, having no desire to be attractive to men, tend to treat other women much more kindly and less judgmentally (unfortunately, they also tend to dislike men more).

I disagree that sex is overrated in our modern culture, though it is overemphasized as a source of happiness and fulfilment. Sex can be FABULOUS as an expression of genuine affection and love between two people, but it becomes boring and empty when seen as an end in itself or as a tool for control. But perhaps I`m just projecting my own feelings onto the issue. Perhaps some people, like the fictional narrator of Shandana`s piece, can simply enjoy the physical act without an emotional connection. Both are very human responses.

After reading this and several other articles on male-female sexuality and relationships, I am SOOO glad that I`m gay. You heterosexuals are really messed up! ;-)

re faisal: to be absolutely honest i`ve never read any of the novels/novellas you mentioned.i have thought about expanding this, but i rarely (if ever) edit my work or even go back to it. as soon as a piece is done i send it off somewhere or call my best friend and insist on reading it to him. this is prolly why they`re all so short..so i can be sure i can hold his attention :)

i dont know if brevity is the soul of wit, but it`s what i`m used to working with, something i`m trying to remedy :)

re bg: you mentioned that you found the womans hatred for other women scary, as did arif. but when i was writing it i intended her hatred for herself to be scarier and leap out more with remarks like ``greeted enthusiastically by a hearthrug`` etc.i guess that was what i was trying to say really, that everyone`s human.

BUT be that as it may, thank you (as always)for responding honestly.

shandana (arifarifarif) minhas

SM

Interesting piece--evocative and provocative too. Your wicked sense of humour shows through in all the three pieces I have read here. You have balls!

First person narration is a gamble. You have almost pulled it off.

Know any shrinks that charge more than I do?

regards

hey, ya`ll. remember it is fiction, confessions of the other woman.

i found this scary to read. all that hatred for women from another woman (and i am not confusing the author with the character here). isnt that just about the most awful thing about patriarchy and the absolute dearth of power for, who else, the powerless: they beat each other up all the time, making the fight easier for the rulers.

i have to say, i dont love men. just love people, whether they are men or women. more distrustful of men, in general. and as far as sex goes: i think it is one of most overrated things in modern society with vogue and bollywood and hollywood and every magazine and hoarding and bill board and movie and survey and cooking oil and car and condom telling us that being sexual objects (if we are women) and virile and `having more of it` (if we are men) is the ultimate in life. i beg to disagree: been there done, that...whatever...it another capitalist-patriarchal conspiracy to keep us preoccupied with it (probably because not enough of us are occupied with it) :)

A great buildup and lots of promise at first, but then what happened? Perhaps this was a subject that should not have been condensed. Expand, elaborate and evolve the plot and characters and you have a dynamite.

It is a pleasure to peek into brave and honest minds. I`m glad we have the likes of you among us.

...SR