A Heavy Price to Pay

I guess it is bit too late to comment on this article since it is two yeards old now, but I guess there are certain issues that don`t age.

I think that the writer has been unfair in singling out Afghan women in particular and Muslim women in general...the plight of these women is no different than their counterparts in the other parts of the world

I am sure that Ms. Shah, being a University graduate from States must remember the way women are treated by American men...how conscious those women are, from a very young age, of their appearance and social acceptability viz-a-via having a suitable partner...economic independence and token gestures like replacing sexist pronouns does not mean that westren women are any better than our own...one must not forget the one night stands, single mothers,infidelity,and it goes on and on...it is commendable to be championining a cause but one must not get carried away...the argument should be logical and least of all self-serving

Bina could have done much better, I suppose

Great Article! I hope this night mare doesnt come true!

After having read quite a few replies, I got the impression that poeple equate Pakistani culture with Islam.. Taleban with Islam. I am proud to be a muslim female, of the rights I have and certainly wont give up in the face of Paki fanaticism or any other fanaticism.

For a change poeple might want to make a little effort to know who they are, rather than taking for granted that they are muslim because thier parents named them usman or salman!

Ignorance isnt really bliss!

I respect Hijabi`s decision to be Hijabi...Miss Zaidi your below the belt attacks teem of attempts at fake farangeeism.

Taleban are NOT following Islam. Our grandparents are NOT following islam, but quite often the decaying culture brought over from Indo Pak.

And yes My husband WILL pay mehar, the exact amount( even if he is a Gora)!

Ms.Zaidi,

I bet you think of yourself as some kind of woman warrior talking about the injustice in Islam against women. Well, I guess it is time to open your eyes and understand that it has nothing to do with your religion. These values that you so much hate were, are, and will be created by men in your society including your father and brother. So instead of talking about religion (which you might or might not know anything about) talk about how you can change the people around you. Not everybody in Pakistan lives in Defence so they might look at Islam in a different way than you or I.

RE: Miss Anita

Please read my reply again, especially the Islamic rights of women(You have missed the point ). Women don t have to sit at home if they are capable or want to work/study. There is a BIG difference between Islam and cultural practice . Women are never told what their Islamic rights are. If a Muslim country or Muslim man is stopping women from work, study or not giving them their Islamic rights then don t blame Islam for it, simply say that that person is wrong not that Islam is wrong. Blame that culture, country ,environment not Islam. Women will be able to practice their Islamic rights(freedom) when people will be able to distinguish between Islam and Culture, when women will know what rights Allah has granted them. For that we don t have to wait 10 years or we don t have to wait for some scholar(imam) to interpret Islam. We can start by educating ourselves first, by understanding Quran and Islam ourselves. The key to success of women or any country(because women constitute more than 50% of population) is to understand True Islam not some Cultural version., by rejecting what people give as Islam in cultural wrapping.

re anita

i marvel at your patience and eloquence. you certainly spoke for me!! thanks.

Beautifully written ! A most elequent and damning indictment of the treatment of women in Afghanistan and the future of women in Pakistan after the 15th Ammendment (if its passed). Your writing style displays a mastery of the subtle arts of persuasion to the cause of drawing attention to women`s plight in Islamic countries which have implemented the most regressive version of Islam possible to ensure male domination, and a possible portent of Pakistan`s future. In a crumbling society in which violence and other social problems escalate by the day, women are the ones made to suffer.

OMAR

Few things piss me off more than parroted statements such as the one below.

``The reason why in Islam women inherit ½ of what men inherit is because men(whether father, brother, husband) are responsible for women. Men HAVE TO spend on their family, it is their Islamic duty. If a wife(daughter, sister) is earning then she does not have to spend her money on her family, she can spend it any way she likes and Islamically her husband has NO SAY in her money...`` (Miss Hijabi reply#45).

Please wake up Miss Hijabi. Go tell the millions of Muslim women who have finally made successes of their lives through microcredit programs such as those supported by the Grameen Bank that their work is unneccessary. God never foresaw their need for work, since it is their husband`s Islamic duty to take care of them. It is much better that they wait for their Islamic husbands to fulfill their Islamic obligations towards providing for them, rather than for them to stand on their own feet, and start taking care of themselves.

It seems to me that your hijab is shrouding your eyes and mind too. Think for yourself lady.

Anita

Re : Bina ..

A pathetic excuse Bina. Hindu culture is very diverse and is not lead by one single holy book. In fact I am sure there is no one single holy god, nor no one single holy prophet in Hinduism, which results in lack of organization of this religion.

Therefore, Hindu culture practised in Pakistan is at best Punjabi or Sindhi culture.

The stigma forced upon widows/divorcees was predominantly Brahmin custom and not just Hindu culture. I know many Hindus from other communities where women are treated equal. Actually even better, here women just go about chosing their rights in these communities. they don`t wait for others to give it to them. There are many communities where orthodox hindu practices were shunned. Even otherwise as far as i know, there is no religious text in Hinduism which ascribes such codes of conducts for women and most of them do not hold water anymore and are archaic. If there is anything good in Hinduism, it is the fact that even in a Hindu country ``Nepal``, the church is seperated from the state and they do not follow the stupid manu law (hindu law ? which is not practised any more). Which is precisely what we muslims have to do with Islam. There are aspects of Islam that we must follow and other parts which we must throw out of the text. Islam for us must be a religion which teaches us how to lead good lives and not one which impinges on the rights of our people.

Anyhow, i hope you would not conveniently blame Hinduism for the actions of the talibans too.

Don`t look for cobwebs elsewhere when they are right in our courtyard only.

Accept it, the koran can be easily misinterpreted or interpreted to suit one`s own perceptions. The best thing to do would be re-interpret islam , but then you would end up creating a new religion like Emperor Akbar and would be excommunicated and persecuted like the Ahmaddiyas by the muslim zealots .

It is a misery to be born as an idealist Muslim because, we are not given the rights to even question these supposedly sancrosanct verses. It is even more of a misery to be born as an idealist Muslim women , i`d guess

sadly, i concur with Anita Zaidi`s reply

When you take up something, go the whole way and remember do not beg for your rights .... it is a shame for a human being to beg someone for your rights because by begging you degrade yourself and make yourself undeserving of what you beg for....have some self respect

RE: Ms. Bina

I totally agree with you that it is the people who are turning and twisting Islam in what they want and like. In true Islam the only person who is better than anyone is the one who is most pious, regardless of gender. And guess what no body has the right to say who is pious and who is not.

RE: Mr. Shahbaz

Hazrat Ayesha was heavily rebuked because she was fighting against Hazrat Ali, family of Holy Prophet(PBUH), not because she was a woman. The women I have mentioned in my reply were appointed by a Muslim Khalif during Muslim rule (because of Islam not despite Islam). How could you say that women had more independence before Islam when people used to bury their daughters when they were born. Women had no right to inherit from their fathers or husbands. When a man used to die, his wives were also inherited(like some property) by his sons or next-of-kin(men).

RE: Ms. Anita Zaidi

The reason why in Islam women inherit ½ of what men inherit is because men(whether father, brother, husband) are responsible for women. Men HAVE TO spend on their family, it is their Islamic duty. If a wife(daughter, sister) is earning then she does not have to spend her money on her family, she can spend it any way she likes and Islamically her husband has NO SAY in her money(even the Maher that the husband , he cannot ask for it.).

In a truely Islamic society women have the following rights in Islam:

The right and duty to obtain education.

The right to have their own independent property.

The right to work to earn money if they need it or want it.

Equality of reward for equal deeds.

The right to participate fully in public life and have their voices heard by those in power.

The right to provisions from the husband for all her needs and more.

The right to negotiate marriage terms of her choice.

The right to obtain divorce from her husband, even on the grounds that she simply can`t stand him.

The right to keep all her own money (she is not responsible to maintain any relations).

The right to get sexual satisfaction from her husband.

They are not obliged to take part as soldiers in the defence of Islam, although they are not forbidden to do so.

And many more...

May Allah give us the courage and strenght to follow true Islam (Ameen)

Anita -

Guess I am a revisionist then - just didn`t have the proper lingo to identify myself clearly. Actually the reinterpretations that Amina Wudud Muhsin and Riffat Hassan have done are considered rather progressive (revisionist?!) by some - in what way do you find this an apologetic defence? My opinon is that Islam`s true spirit doesn`t discriminate - its followers that do this instead, interpreting Quranic verses and Hadith on their own whims, to the utter degredation of women, minorities, etc.etc. with harmful and traumatic results. And until we come up with answers that satisfy everyone regardless of gender, the Quran will need to be interpreted, reinterpreted, and re-reinterpreted until the cows come home! If that is an apologist`s stance, then so be it.

RE: Bina`s reply # 42

Actually Bina, despite your apologetic defence of Islam, you can`t get away from the fact that Islam discriminates against women - you may justify its prescriptions of women`s role in ancient Arabia, but to say that they don`t apply today, is to definitely take a revisionist view. And if so, then you must state openly that you favor the reinterpretation of certain verses. The 4:34 verse is a case in point (please refer to my article on Chowk ``The limits on women`s lives``, and especially the interact section).

Yes, there are those oft-repeated verses which say that women are morally equal. There are others that say men are in charge. At best these are contradictory, condemning us to centuries of splitting hairs; at worst they are discriminatory, condemning us to centuries of mistreatment, and disunity.

And what, for example is the point in defending inheritance laws that say sons get double of daughters by saying that there is flexibility, and you can give daughters more, just not less. If your parent dies without making a will (which happens very often), there is no flexibility. By shariah law, that`s how the estate gets divided up. In your lifetime, you can divide up your assets however you like. As sanctioned by religion, most parents give much more to their sons than to their daughters.

As far as the testimony issue is concerned, I am sure that there were many men in Islamic Arabia who had no idea of economics, and many women who did. Why not judge each person on his/her merits?

regards,

anita

Wasiq -

Thanks for directing me to your article on Women`s Rights in Islam. I read through it and I have a few things to say about it - this reply is going to be a bit long, so feel free to skip it if you like, guys!

OK, the points you made separating idealistic from practical Islam, and tracing the preexisting cultural environment were pretty good. It`s true that the Hindu culture has had a lot of influence on how we practice Islam in Pakistan. For example, the stigma forced upon widows/divorcees is a direct inheritance from Hinduism as I understand it. (No offence meant to our Indian/Hindu readers, and feel free to correct me if I am wrong). In fact, in many families, Muslim widows are urged to wear white and sleep on the floor and not to wear any jewelry, although they draw the line at head-shaving - NONE of which is proscribed in Islam.

However, Wasiq, your points about how idealistic Islam makes women out to be inferior to men in many different ways have some errors which I would like to correct.

I have written an article outlining some of the work of Amina Wadud Muhsin and Riffat Hassan, two Islamic scholars (Malaysian and Pakistani) on precisely this topic. The article is in this month`s Libas, if you can find a copy of it. If you`d like, I can send you a photocopy of the article if you`ll provide me with your mailing address.

1. You stated that in Islam, one male witness is equal to two female witnesses in a court of law. This in fact is a distortion of what was actually outlined in the Quran: that in the case of a financial contract, you can have one man and two women to witness the contract - the two women not meant to be inferior half-witnesses, but the second woman there to act as a moral support for the first woman. In those days, women were not well-versed in economics, and were also intimidated to lie or not give accurate testimony, so the second witness was a helper to the first. But, in the case that the woman was sure about her testimony, or knowledgeable in the field of economics (as we have today), there is no Quranic reason that one woman is not enough to give testimony. Furthermore, this is only in the case of a financial contract - not a rape, murder, or other criminal case, which has its own rules and laws for testimony. For example, in the case of adultery, simply the wife`s oath that her husband has been unfaithful is enough to condemn him in the lack of four adult witnesses (and note that in those cases it doesn`t say four adult male witnesses or eight adult female witnesses - see how we love to jump to conclusions)

2. The reason the inheritance laws are outlined in the Quran the way they are, as I understand it, is to ensure that the woman gets SOMETHING - as opposed to being completely disinherited, as was the case before Islam. It is not a limiter - you can definitely give a woman more, you just can`t give her less. There are also combinations of inheritance outlined, to show that there are many ways of dividing up the inheritance, not just one - that you can be flexible given your circumstances.

3. As far as the infamous verse 4:34 where it is said that you can beat your wife if she disobeys you...well, that verse has been translated in quite bizarre ways. You know that Arabic is a language that has many different meanings...did you know the word ``daraba`` can mean to strike lightly, to strike violently, to strike out (as on a journey) and finally, to go to bed with! So which is it? Also, the word ``nushuz`` which scholars have interpreted to mean ``disobedience to the husband`` actually means ``disobedience to God``. So, I think it can be safely said that that verse, which is the topic of so much controversy, still needs to be examined properly before we can conclude that Islam sanctions wife-beating.

4. (I`m getting dizzy now!) As far as the weakness of women is concerned...the Quran states that men and women are equal in terms of moral duty, punishment, rewards...there is no where that the Quran says women are intellectually, morally or otherwise inferior - verse 4:34 applies to men being obligated to taking care of women while they are pregnant or otherwise unable to look after their own finances.

Anyway, this is getting pretty long-winded, but just thought I`d give my comments - enjoyed the article.

- B.

Since we are on this topic, I would like you to read an article on mine, published on Chowk, which deals with the same issue, ``Women`s rights in Pakistan``, (University Ave) and let me know what you think.
regards
Wasiq

Hey, I just want to thank everyone for their comments, and for the vibrant discussion that the article has provoked. It`s hard to be a writer in pakistan (it`s hard to be anything in pakistan except maybe a drug lord or a corrupt politician) - but your encouragement will help me to keep on writin`, and tellin` it like it is (or could be).

Rana: you`re absolutely right, I didn`t mention the education bit. I think I was imagining a woman whose daughter was a bit too young for school so it wasn`t one of the things that affected her as yet...or perhaps I thought that the child`s imprisonment in the house sort of covered that.

Suds Jiff, was it you that told me I was overestimating men? I don`t think so. I know many thoughtful, considerate men who would be completely miserable watching their women get ``tabahoed`` by the hideous conditions of this story. And we all know that when the women of a household are unhappy..it`s pretty hard for anyone to be happy in it.

I don`t really know what to say to the growing hijab/non-hijab debate. I guess to me, modesty is a state of both mind and dress, of thinking and behavior. It infuriates me that the average man in Pakistan thinks it`s ok to stand in the middle of the road, raise his kameez, and urinate in full view of everybody, scratch his crotch or adjust his genitals, lift his shalwar and rub his legs, or any other of a thousand things...while calling a woman obscene if she hasn`t covered every inch of visible flesh, including her face and eyes. Yes, there are physical differences between men and women, but to me these men`s actions are a gross violation of the idea of modesty that Islam puts forth.

As for hijab - I also have great difficulty with the idea that we as women are responsible for the sexuality and urges of men. You all can see where it leads - that a man can`t control himself if a woman isn`t covered properly. This is ridiculous!
How are we any better than animals if that`s the case? This isn`t to say that a woman should go topless down the street and not expect trouble - but nor should a man take a non-hijab wearing woman as open license to stare, touch, and otherwise harrass. And hey, even women in full burqas get their asses pinched on the bus coming to work.

I really enjoyed reading this. As long as there are aware, empathetic and vocal Pakistani women and men around, I am sure Pakistan will not be another Afghanistan.

I think beyond discussions of gender stereotypes, and their roots, lies the simple fact, that one`s life is what one makes it to be. Not everyone has the best of opportunities, but those who do, and those who wish for a better world, should always keep the faith, and do their little part, no matter how insignificant apparently, to change today into a better tomorrow.

The thoughts and sentiments expressed in this article and in the responses to it, I think, are a testimony to the fact that Pakistan is indeed lucky to have such people around.

p.s I also saw the Handmaid`s Tale (incidentally also at mit) and in some respects the story has interesting parallels with the sentiments expressed in this article. I would actually like to see the movie again (preferably on a large screen ... but sadly, I do not know of a movie theater in Philadelphia that would show it).

RE; Hijabi

i needed an insulin shot after reading your response ;))

this was completely uncalled for, im sorry :))