And now, the army!
Zeejah October 11, 1998
#52 Posted by dr_h on January 8, 2008 6:39:00 pm
Came across this article while searching on Ali Quli Khan. I wonder what the author thinks of Gen (retired) Musharraf now? And what Lt. Gen. (retired) Ali Quli Khan thinks of the President?
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#51 Posted by smellthecoffee on December 20, 2007 3:47:16 am
Zeejah you're back? You're my fav writer in the same league as FV.
Never forgot your 'The Puppet'.
(Zeemax)
Never forgot your 'The Puppet'.
(Zeemax)
#50 Posted by zeejah on December 20, 2007 3:35:33 am
WAKE UP? ... i guess i was one of the few who were awake... 2007 is proof of that...;)
#49 Posted by Nadir on July 6, 2001 2:21:58 pm
Where can I find your book? I read your article titled, `Magician and the Dreamer`...I was mesmerized. Thanks and regards,
my email is
NadirKh@aol.com
Nadir Khan
my email is
NadirKh@aol.com
Nadir Khan
#48 Posted by fahadik on November 2, 1999 8:18:24 pm
Dear Zeejah
I am having a serious problem so i need the email and any other contact information of Gen. Musharaf
Plz let me know as soon as possible.
Thanking you in advance for your earliest and positive response
By the way your article was very impressive
My email is fahadik@yahoo.com
Thanks
With kind regards,
Fahad
I am having a serious problem so i need the email and any other contact information of Gen. Musharaf
Plz let me know as soon as possible.
Thanking you in advance for your earliest and positive response
By the way your article was very impressive
My email is fahadik@yahoo.com
Thanks
With kind regards,
Fahad
#47 Posted by UR on September 17, 1999 12:45:24 am
Just came across this article in the chowk archives. I must clarify something here. It is astonishing to see the author rely on ethnic arguments to justify her points.
First of all, of all the institutions in Pakistan, the military is on of the least influenced by internal ethnic strife. Thank God, for that. Military officers loyalty is to the military first, and then to their provinces, ethnicities etc. Thank God, for that, as well. This does not mean there aren`t minor ethnic groupings in the military, at the higher ranks. But they are just that, very minor.
Any officer who makes it to the rank of Lieutenant General, Air Marshall, or Vice Admiral, is militarily very competent, and qulaified to lead the branch of the military to which he belongs. At that stage it becomes a political decision regarding who will become the Chief of Staff. In fact, on the basis of merit, it is almost impossible to decide, who is more compotent. The Lieutenant Generals themselves understand that. In many cases, especially in the Air Force, the senior most officer has not become the Chief of Staff.
If General Khattak was not made the chief, the decision was more political than ethnic. So the author`s argument`s make absolutely no sense. If you take a look at the PAF, most of the officers commanding it have been from the NWFP, and almost all of them were made Chiefs of Staff by-passing other officers senior to them. This may not be common in the legal profession, but it is quite common at the highest ranks of the military.
It is impossible to decide whom among the candidates was professionally more competent to become the the head of the Army. But I am certain, the decision was based on politics, then on ethnicity.
First of all, of all the institutions in Pakistan, the military is on of the least influenced by internal ethnic strife. Thank God, for that. Military officers loyalty is to the military first, and then to their provinces, ethnicities etc. Thank God, for that, as well. This does not mean there aren`t minor ethnic groupings in the military, at the higher ranks. But they are just that, very minor.
Any officer who makes it to the rank of Lieutenant General, Air Marshall, or Vice Admiral, is militarily very competent, and qulaified to lead the branch of the military to which he belongs. At that stage it becomes a political decision regarding who will become the Chief of Staff. In fact, on the basis of merit, it is almost impossible to decide, who is more compotent. The Lieutenant Generals themselves understand that. In many cases, especially in the Air Force, the senior most officer has not become the Chief of Staff.
If General Khattak was not made the chief, the decision was more political than ethnic. So the author`s argument`s make absolutely no sense. If you take a look at the PAF, most of the officers commanding it have been from the NWFP, and almost all of them were made Chiefs of Staff by-passing other officers senior to them. This may not be common in the legal profession, but it is quite common at the highest ranks of the military.
It is impossible to decide whom among the candidates was professionally more competent to become the the head of the Army. But I am certain, the decision was based on politics, then on ethnicity.
#46 Posted by Uncle on April 24, 1999 2:48:33 pm
For Zeejah
GOING WITH PERVEZ MUSHARRAF AS COAS
By
A Comrade in Arms:
It is unfortunate that I have come cross your article so late, otherwise I would have nipped your emotional and inherent biases in the bud. A lot has happened since October so lets first catch up:
a) It is widely believed that Ali Quli was involved in serious political intrigue in the two days prior to the appointment of the COAS.
b) Pervez Musharraf has proved himself as a man of word and deed (judging key appointments after his takeover, impartial prosecution across the political divide in the WAPDA drive, JCSC issue). Contrary to prevailing thought in October, he is not following any inherent political agenda except one for the good of the nation.
Now digging back into what you so carelessly posted and seem to blindly believe. Let me inform you that there was never a doubt in the military circles as to who was more professionally competent. Musharraf’s military career is as unique as it is stellar:
1) He was battalion JUO at PMA, marking him among the 12 top cadets at the 29th PMA long course. (Sword of Honour holder for that course was Shabir Sharif __ Nishan-e-Haider.)
2) He received the award of Imtiazi Sanad after the 1965 war for bravery reported in a battle incident. (slink * take a look at your source about Musharraf’s supposed avoidance of the battle front).
3) Musharraf served seven years with the Special Services Group (slink * take a second look at your source about Musharraf’s supposed avoidance of action).
4) He excelled in all command and staff positions that were due for his rank. Gunnery Staff Course, Pakistan Staff Course (Staff College-Quetta, also instructor there later), Armed Forces War Course (National Defence College-Rawalpindi, also instructor there later), and Geo-Strategy at the Royal College of Defence Studies-London (went as a Brigadier in 1989 and was declared ‘best’ international officer amongst officers from India, Israel, US etc..). It is a fact that Ali Quli was sent to Sandhurst from PMA, however when we evaluate the qualifications for being the Chief of the Army Staff, we must take into account the entire career of an officer. Focusing on when an officer was a gentleman cadet training to be an officer is not at all appropriate.
5) Coming from an Artillery background he got outstanding reports as a commander of an Infantry brigade (Bahawalpur) and an Armoured Division (Okara). His last appointment before becoming COAS was as the Corps Commander of Pakistan Army’s primary offensive Corps.: 1 Corps, Mangla.
You expose your military naiveté when you hail the CGS and PSO positions as the end all of all qualifications for the COAS. Even though the CGS is considered second in command of the Army, when the Army Chief leaves the country, it is the senior most Corps Commander that normally prevails as ‘acting’ Chief. Field command outweighs staff appointments any day. Even so, Musharraf has held key staff appointments throughout his career:
As a Col.: Deputy Directory Military Operations (DDMO)
As a Brig: Deputy Military Secretary (DMS)
As a Maj Gen: Director General Military Operations (DGMO, this is when AQK was DMI)
All that having said, I want to address some of the inherent biases that you seem to harbour and I would like to advise you to not base your judgment solely on drawing room conversations, you will lose credibility as an objective writer. You must also know that Ali Quli had guardian angels clearing his path throughout his career, you may call it ethnic bias, you may call it socio-economic bias, you may call it military bias (coming from a well established military household). An example from the not too distant past is when General Wahid Kakar (the former COAS) protected Ali Quli’s credibility as a leader of men following a bewildering ambush incident in Sindh, where he had fled from the scene (leaving personnel who were killed by dacoits). Not every officer has the ‘backing’ to survive such incidents.
Your constant mention of Ali Quli as a good Muslim implies that Musharraf is not? Pray tell me, how the Quaid M. A. Jinnah, fairs in your judgment of ‘good’ Muslims. As the Propher (PBUH) said, “A Momin is he, whose presence in society is felt as a benefit to ALL and whose absence is felt as a grievous loss.” I wonder how you have ‘good’ Muslims defined for yourself.
You’ve referred to a suspected duo of Gohar Ayub and Ali Quli at the time of the COAS appointment as a ‘strong’ alliance that Nawaz Sharif felt threatened by. Let’s just say that Ali Quli’s political leanings had started much before that. A dynamic ‘trio’ of Ali Quli-Leghari (AQK’s schoolmate)-Gohar Ayub (AQK’s brother-in-law) was in the writing. Whatever good can be assumed about these individuals, each is unfortunately infected with the virus of perceiving a birth right to authority in Pakistan.
Affiliations that Ali Quli intended to use as last nails in the coffin of the COAS decision backfired and he has no one else to blame for that except himself. His resignation, followed by his son’s resignation (a captain in the Army), demeans the vows that are taken to defend one’s homeland.
Wake up Ms. Zeejah and step out of the pre-conceived notions that you harbour about people, this is NOT the way we want to grapple with our future.
GOING WITH PERVEZ MUSHARRAF AS COAS
By
A Comrade in Arms:
It is unfortunate that I have come cross your article so late, otherwise I would have nipped your emotional and inherent biases in the bud. A lot has happened since October so lets first catch up:
a) It is widely believed that Ali Quli was involved in serious political intrigue in the two days prior to the appointment of the COAS.
b) Pervez Musharraf has proved himself as a man of word and deed (judging key appointments after his takeover, impartial prosecution across the political divide in the WAPDA drive, JCSC issue). Contrary to prevailing thought in October, he is not following any inherent political agenda except one for the good of the nation.
Now digging back into what you so carelessly posted and seem to blindly believe. Let me inform you that there was never a doubt in the military circles as to who was more professionally competent. Musharraf’s military career is as unique as it is stellar:
1) He was battalion JUO at PMA, marking him among the 12 top cadets at the 29th PMA long course. (Sword of Honour holder for that course was Shabir Sharif __ Nishan-e-Haider.)
2) He received the award of Imtiazi Sanad after the 1965 war for bravery reported in a battle incident. (slink * take a look at your source about Musharraf’s supposed avoidance of the battle front).
3) Musharraf served seven years with the Special Services Group (slink * take a second look at your source about Musharraf’s supposed avoidance of action).
4) He excelled in all command and staff positions that were due for his rank. Gunnery Staff Course, Pakistan Staff Course (Staff College-Quetta, also instructor there later), Armed Forces War Course (National Defence College-Rawalpindi, also instructor there later), and Geo-Strategy at the Royal College of Defence Studies-London (went as a Brigadier in 1989 and was declared ‘best’ international officer amongst officers from India, Israel, US etc..). It is a fact that Ali Quli was sent to Sandhurst from PMA, however when we evaluate the qualifications for being the Chief of the Army Staff, we must take into account the entire career of an officer. Focusing on when an officer was a gentleman cadet training to be an officer is not at all appropriate.
5) Coming from an Artillery background he got outstanding reports as a commander of an Infantry brigade (Bahawalpur) and an Armoured Division (Okara). His last appointment before becoming COAS was as the Corps Commander of Pakistan Army’s primary offensive Corps.: 1 Corps, Mangla.
You expose your military naiveté when you hail the CGS and PSO positions as the end all of all qualifications for the COAS. Even though the CGS is considered second in command of the Army, when the Army Chief leaves the country, it is the senior most Corps Commander that normally prevails as ‘acting’ Chief. Field command outweighs staff appointments any day. Even so, Musharraf has held key staff appointments throughout his career:
As a Col.: Deputy Directory Military Operations (DDMO)
As a Brig: Deputy Military Secretary (DMS)
As a Maj Gen: Director General Military Operations (DGMO, this is when AQK was DMI)
All that having said, I want to address some of the inherent biases that you seem to harbour and I would like to advise you to not base your judgment solely on drawing room conversations, you will lose credibility as an objective writer. You must also know that Ali Quli had guardian angels clearing his path throughout his career, you may call it ethnic bias, you may call it socio-economic bias, you may call it military bias (coming from a well established military household). An example from the not too distant past is when General Wahid Kakar (the former COAS) protected Ali Quli’s credibility as a leader of men following a bewildering ambush incident in Sindh, where he had fled from the scene (leaving personnel who were killed by dacoits). Not every officer has the ‘backing’ to survive such incidents.
Your constant mention of Ali Quli as a good Muslim implies that Musharraf is not? Pray tell me, how the Quaid M. A. Jinnah, fairs in your judgment of ‘good’ Muslims. As the Propher (PBUH) said, “A Momin is he, whose presence in society is felt as a benefit to ALL and whose absence is felt as a grievous loss.” I wonder how you have ‘good’ Muslims defined for yourself.
You’ve referred to a suspected duo of Gohar Ayub and Ali Quli at the time of the COAS appointment as a ‘strong’ alliance that Nawaz Sharif felt threatened by. Let’s just say that Ali Quli’s political leanings had started much before that. A dynamic ‘trio’ of Ali Quli-Leghari (AQK’s schoolmate)-Gohar Ayub (AQK’s brother-in-law) was in the writing. Whatever good can be assumed about these individuals, each is unfortunately infected with the virus of perceiving a birth right to authority in Pakistan.
Affiliations that Ali Quli intended to use as last nails in the coffin of the COAS decision backfired and he has no one else to blame for that except himself. His resignation, followed by his son’s resignation (a captain in the Army), demeans the vows that are taken to defend one’s homeland.
Wake up Ms. Zeejah and step out of the pre-conceived notions that you harbour about people, this is NOT the way we want to grapple with our future.
#45 Posted by zeejah on October 25, 1998 1:35:07 am
re RR...
hate and haste... just an `s` to differentiate them... yet, I wonder, was it a freudian slip?...;)
...a hasty response generally taps a deeper reservoir of emotional content ...
and ethnic identity has a longer history than national identity... maybe we all (including myself) are more biased than we would like to believe?... i hope not...:)
...as for `Pukhtoonkhwa` ... how can you name a province after pukhtoons and ignore the other ethnic races living there?... though the pakhtoons are more vociferous, I don`t think they form a majority in the Frontier.... besides,
belonging to a pukhtoon family that fought for Pakistan during the infamous 1947 referendum, I wouldn`t like Bacha Khan et al (read Congress Party) to have the last laugh, by allowing Pakhtoonistan through the back door....;)
as for newspapers on the net... I read the newspapers in the morning and I am up to here with clinton and monica; the `virtues` of nawaz shareef and diana `the undieable`
... I use the net for fulfilling other interests/hobbies, including chatting on IRC (dalnet) ...drop in sometime....:)
hate and haste... just an `s` to differentiate them... yet, I wonder, was it a freudian slip?...;)
...a hasty response generally taps a deeper reservoir of emotional content ...
and ethnic identity has a longer history than national identity... maybe we all (including myself) are more biased than we would like to believe?... i hope not...:)
...as for `Pukhtoonkhwa` ... how can you name a province after pukhtoons and ignore the other ethnic races living there?... though the pakhtoons are more vociferous, I don`t think they form a majority in the Frontier.... besides,
belonging to a pukhtoon family that fought for Pakistan during the infamous 1947 referendum, I wouldn`t like Bacha Khan et al (read Congress Party) to have the last laugh, by allowing Pakhtoonistan through the back door....;)
as for newspapers on the net... I read the newspapers in the morning and I am up to here with clinton and monica; the `virtues` of nawaz shareef and diana `the undieable`
... I use the net for fulfilling other interests/hobbies, including chatting on IRC (dalnet) ...drop in sometime....:)
#44 Posted by Amin Saleh on October 21, 1998 12:28:08 pm
While I might be flogging a dead horse, I am prompted by something interesting on the Wall Street Journal (October 21, 98) Front Page
Quote:
Military leaders are warning troops to avoid ``insulting, rude or disdainful`` comments about Clinton, including Lewinsky jokes. Senior officers are responding to recent newspaper columns and letters written by military personnel on the scandal.
unquote
Quote:
Military leaders are warning troops to avoid ``insulting, rude or disdainful`` comments about Clinton, including Lewinsky jokes. Senior officers are responding to recent newspaper columns and letters written by military personnel on the scandal.
unquote
#43 Posted by rehanrizvi on October 18, 1998 2:46:40 am
Re: Zeejah
I wanna clarify something here. I have never been part of MQM or any party for that matter. I was just a teenager when I left Pakistan. I do not support separatist, sectarian or ethnic tendencies of any kind in politics. Some of MY best friends are from Punjab and Pakhtoonkhoa.
This is unrelated but you know why I insist on Pakhtoonkhoa? Because I totally support this name. NWFP is a British legacy which takes away the identity of the people of this province. If Punjab is where Punjabis live, Sindh is where Sindhis live, Balochistan is where Balochis live and nobody has any objection to the names that they evoke ethnic separatism, then, Pakhtoonkhoa or Pakhtoonistan should be where Pakhtoons live, period.
Anyway, some of my comments came out in hate and in spite of your tone and innuendos in your article and were totally wrong and were just not who I really am, and I`m really sorry about them. I believe that poor people in Pakistan are all suffering under the elitisit governments of the past and the present and a total political revoluation of sort is the only solution. PPP or PML, they are all the same.
But let me say something here. I think what has happened here is exactly what`s wrong with Pakistan. People, in their passion, go too far in their arguments and provoke similar sentiments in other people. The result is the rise of ethnic and sectarian parties that flame those tendencies trapping the country in this vicious circle.
I think we should consider the system of second and third drafts before sending our feelings to be published. Similarly, we must learn to think before we speak for that saves us all from all that can go wrong. Emotions can decieve us from realizing our true destiny. I really am sorry about my previous comments.
Oh! BTW, any reason why you don`t like reading papers on the net? I`m intrigued.
I wanna clarify something here. I have never been part of MQM or any party for that matter. I was just a teenager when I left Pakistan. I do not support separatist, sectarian or ethnic tendencies of any kind in politics. Some of MY best friends are from Punjab and Pakhtoonkhoa.
This is unrelated but you know why I insist on Pakhtoonkhoa? Because I totally support this name. NWFP is a British legacy which takes away the identity of the people of this province. If Punjab is where Punjabis live, Sindh is where Sindhis live, Balochistan is where Balochis live and nobody has any objection to the names that they evoke ethnic separatism, then, Pakhtoonkhoa or Pakhtoonistan should be where Pakhtoons live, period.
Anyway, some of my comments came out in hate and in spite of your tone and innuendos in your article and were totally wrong and were just not who I really am, and I`m really sorry about them. I believe that poor people in Pakistan are all suffering under the elitisit governments of the past and the present and a total political revoluation of sort is the only solution. PPP or PML, they are all the same.
But let me say something here. I think what has happened here is exactly what`s wrong with Pakistan. People, in their passion, go too far in their arguments and provoke similar sentiments in other people. The result is the rise of ethnic and sectarian parties that flame those tendencies trapping the country in this vicious circle.
I think we should consider the system of second and third drafts before sending our feelings to be published. Similarly, we must learn to think before we speak for that saves us all from all that can go wrong. Emotions can decieve us from realizing our true destiny. I really am sorry about my previous comments.
Oh! BTW, any reason why you don`t like reading papers on the net? I`m intrigued.
#42 Posted by rehanrizvi on October 18, 1998 1:43:04 am
Correction:
Don`t be alarmed when you read the word ``hate`` in my last response. The correct word is HASTE and I spelled it wrong as I was in a hurry. Ironic, isn`t it? Actually, THAT is very Pakistani indeed. Aye Carramaba!
Don`t be alarmed when you read the word ``hate`` in my last response. The correct word is HASTE and I spelled it wrong as I was in a hurry. Ironic, isn`t it? Actually, THAT is very Pakistani indeed. Aye Carramaba!
#41 Posted by zeejah on October 16, 1998 12:57:59 am
re shafqat:
Yes, Kirdar is correct...it is a possibility...but it is not a fact...:)
The name Quli does not stand for any feudal aristocracy... it is merely the name of Ali Quli`s Grandfather... there is no feudal or aristrocrat in Ali Quli`s background.... :)
re Kirdar...
Yes, selection for Sandhurt training can be politically motivated... but how do we explain the cadets performance while there?... or do our politicians pull strings at Sandhurt too?....:)
Flying out of BD was not a desertion... it was ordered by the top brass... the behaviour of Ali et al is commendable since they obeyed the orders under extremely dangerous circumstances.
I whole heartedly agree...it is the institutions that are at risk in Pakistan... it is the institutions that matter... and each has being torn down systematically...and now the army!
re maliani ...:
The
re were dacoits ... there was political victimisation... i remember the time ...the highways were unsafe to the ordinary citizen...is that not a fact?
Yes, Kirdar is correct...it is a possibility...but it is not a fact...:)
The name Quli does not stand for any feudal aristocracy... it is merely the name of Ali Quli`s Grandfather... there is no feudal or aristrocrat in Ali Quli`s background.... :)
re Kirdar...
Yes, selection for Sandhurt training can be politically motivated... but how do we explain the cadets performance while there?... or do our politicians pull strings at Sandhurt too?....:)
Flying out of BD was not a desertion... it was ordered by the top brass... the behaviour of Ali et al is commendable since they obeyed the orders under extremely dangerous circumstances.
I whole heartedly agree...it is the institutions that are at risk in Pakistan... it is the institutions that matter... and each has being torn down systematically...and now the army!
re maliani ...:
The
re were dacoits ... there was political victimisation... i remember the time ...the highways were unsafe to the ordinary citizen...is that not a fact?
#40 Posted by zeejah on October 16, 1998 12:57:59 am
re RR...
1.....`Always` is a big word...no group, ethnic or otherwise, is ALWAYS...outspoken...freedom loving ...etc etc...merely because lots of different ppl make up a group...:)
2....as for Gen Ayub Khan... yes ... unfortunately I am related to him by marriage...we try to forget that though...:) ... my father, Yusuf Khattak, was the leader of opposition during the dark days of the first Martial Law .... until removed from the political scene by the ``basic democrats`` elections ... Gen. Habibullah, Ali`s father, was removed as CGS by Ayub Khan, (the post used to be called COAS then, i think) to make way for the more pliable, and less meritorious Gen. Musa .. for almost the same reasons his son has been superceded.... history DOES have a habit of repeating itself ... as i pointed out to NS in my article..:)
3.....I dont accept the term `Pukhtoonkhwa` ... it is too remiscent of the referendum ... i prefer the non-comittal NWFP or Frontier... :)
4.... I would like to ask though...if pathans and punjabis have (admittedly) commited various crimes... (as have the urdu speaking community) .... does that condone Altaf Hussains crimes? ... do 2 wrongs make a right?.... but the point I was trying to make is that, when the PM of a country meets with a person who has been declared a proclaimed offender by the courts of his country ... what messages does that give people about respecting the law?
5....MY AQK KHATTAK...is not a taliban supporter... he is too good a muslim for that ... besides being too enlightened....:)
6.... No, the taliban are not a peace loving bunch... If I voice my opinions about the taliban, this reply will be censored...;)
7... That is exactly what upset me ..... the COAS should NOT be a political consideration... the security of a country depends on his sagacity...witness what happened with Gen. Zia...wouldnt you agree?
8.... When I speak of Punjab`s dominance.... I mean the province of Punjab... and not with ethnic bias... its a purely provincial/financial/developmental matter.... some of my best friends are punjabis... :)
9.... I dont get the Dawn... it arrives too late in the day (in Peshawar) ... and I dont read newspapers on the net ... although i do know that Dawn has some fine writers.....Cowasjee, Kaleem Omar and Ghazi Salahudding being amongst my favourite writers....:)
1.....`Always` is a big word...no group, ethnic or otherwise, is ALWAYS...outspoken...freedom loving ...etc etc...merely because lots of different ppl make up a group...:)
2....as for Gen Ayub Khan... yes ... unfortunately I am related to him by marriage...we try to forget that though...:) ... my father, Yusuf Khattak, was the leader of opposition during the dark days of the first Martial Law .... until removed from the political scene by the ``basic democrats`` elections ... Gen. Habibullah, Ali`s father, was removed as CGS by Ayub Khan, (the post used to be called COAS then, i think) to make way for the more pliable, and less meritorious Gen. Musa .. for almost the same reasons his son has been superceded.... history DOES have a habit of repeating itself ... as i pointed out to NS in my article..:)
3.....I dont accept the term `Pukhtoonkhwa` ... it is too remiscent of the referendum ... i prefer the non-comittal NWFP or Frontier... :)
4.... I would like to ask though...if pathans and punjabis have (admittedly) commited various crimes... (as have the urdu speaking community) .... does that condone Altaf Hussains crimes? ... do 2 wrongs make a right?.... but the point I was trying to make is that, when the PM of a country meets with a person who has been declared a proclaimed offender by the courts of his country ... what messages does that give people about respecting the law?
5....MY AQK KHATTAK...is not a taliban supporter... he is too good a muslim for that ... besides being too enlightened....:)
6.... No, the taliban are not a peace loving bunch... If I voice my opinions about the taliban, this reply will be censored...;)
7... That is exactly what upset me ..... the COAS should NOT be a political consideration... the security of a country depends on his sagacity...witness what happened with Gen. Zia...wouldnt you agree?
8.... When I speak of Punjab`s dominance.... I mean the province of Punjab... and not with ethnic bias... its a purely provincial/financial/developmental matter.... some of my best friends are punjabis... :)
9.... I dont get the Dawn... it arrives too late in the day (in Peshawar) ... and I dont read newspapers on the net ... although i do know that Dawn has some fine writers.....Cowasjee, Kaleem Omar and Ghazi Salahudding being amongst my favourite writers....:)
#39 Posted by TAHSAN on October 15, 1998 2:54:49 pm
From the sublime to the ridiculous! The Chowk front page quickly descends from a discussion on Amartya Sen to consider the relative capabilties of potential Jalld-in-Chiefs for the country. Roles in oppressive and bloody episodes appropriately show up as meritorious qualifications. Such is the tragic situation in which we find ourselves.
Re--Mr. RR`s comments:
The people from NWFP and other places who migrated to Karachi are as authentic Karachiites as Altaf Hussein. They do not need anyone`s permission to be there. Incidently, they have also played as significant a role in the construction of the city`s economic, social and cultural life, as those whose mother tongue happens to be Urdu.
tariq ahsan
Re--Mr. RR`s comments:
The people from NWFP and other places who migrated to Karachi are as authentic Karachiites as Altaf Hussein. They do not need anyone`s permission to be there. Incidently, they have also played as significant a role in the construction of the city`s economic, social and cultural life, as those whose mother tongue happens to be Urdu.
tariq ahsan
#38 Posted by rehanrizvi on October 14, 1998 8:06:57 pm
Here`s the deal. The author, complaining about Punjab`s bias, is as much biased herself against always outspoken Mohajirs and the always freedom loving Sindhis. Yes, I completely agree, that in the guise of operation clean-up, the army was sent to wipe out the MRD movement in Sindh. Scores were killed, imprisoned and maimed and nobody could know about it because ``professional`` soldiers, like AQKK, from NWFP and Punjab were just following orders of their leader.
The fact is that Ms. ZJ wouldn`t talk about how another General, yet another relativer of her`s, Gohar Ayub` father, from Pakhtoonkhoa dictated over Pakistan for ten years. His first ``professional`` order of business was to send home the senior Mohajir civil servants, all 400 of them, home to Karachi. He was the brilliant man who brought the `honor loving` Pathans to Karachi to colonize it. Drugs, guns and kidnappings of children followed soon.
She blames ``proclaimed offender`` Altaf Hussain for Gen. Musharraf`s promotion. No Ma`am. More pathans and Punjabis have violated the constitution, a crime punishable by death, and broken the law than any Altaf Hussain. And they are all glorified in the history for saving Pakistan. If you find fault with Gen. Musharraf`s promotion because he`s a Mohajir, you clearly imply that that may be the case, then you are no different than Punjabis.
The fact is that your AQK KHATTAK, if the rumor is true, a Taliban supporter. The same people who would rather have you sit at home do nothing than let you voice your opinion on the net. Wait, they wouldn`t allow the internet. And please don`t start about how the good and peace making Talibans are. We all know the truth.
But, don`t get me wrong, I think Gen. Musharraf`s ethnicity WAS the factor in his promotion. You know why? Not because Altaf wanted it. Because Nawaz Sharif wanted it. You see, being a lonely Mohajir at the top, he doesn`t have any following in the lower ranks. If he decides to show PM the exit door, Punjabi and Pathan soldiers wouldn`t take orders from him BECAUSE he is a Mohajir. Anyway, COAS is a political office and political considerations have always taken a priority over any ``professionalism.``
IF you are honest, as you say you are, then educate yourself about Pakistan`s history from a different angle. This isn`t to say you are not right about the dominance of Punjab over smaller provinces. But you say it for the wrong reason. For a more interesting reading about the topic I`d suggest the recent column by Cowasjee in today`s Dawn. Very apt and makes a point.
The fact is that Ms. ZJ wouldn`t talk about how another General, yet another relativer of her`s, Gohar Ayub` father, from Pakhtoonkhoa dictated over Pakistan for ten years. His first ``professional`` order of business was to send home the senior Mohajir civil servants, all 400 of them, home to Karachi. He was the brilliant man who brought the `honor loving` Pathans to Karachi to colonize it. Drugs, guns and kidnappings of children followed soon.
She blames ``proclaimed offender`` Altaf Hussain for Gen. Musharraf`s promotion. No Ma`am. More pathans and Punjabis have violated the constitution, a crime punishable by death, and broken the law than any Altaf Hussain. And they are all glorified in the history for saving Pakistan. If you find fault with Gen. Musharraf`s promotion because he`s a Mohajir, you clearly imply that that may be the case, then you are no different than Punjabis.
The fact is that your AQK KHATTAK, if the rumor is true, a Taliban supporter. The same people who would rather have you sit at home do nothing than let you voice your opinion on the net. Wait, they wouldn`t allow the internet. And please don`t start about how the good and peace making Talibans are. We all know the truth.
But, don`t get me wrong, I think Gen. Musharraf`s ethnicity WAS the factor in his promotion. You know why? Not because Altaf wanted it. Because Nawaz Sharif wanted it. You see, being a lonely Mohajir at the top, he doesn`t have any following in the lower ranks. If he decides to show PM the exit door, Punjabi and Pathan soldiers wouldn`t take orders from him BECAUSE he is a Mohajir. Anyway, COAS is a political office and political considerations have always taken a priority over any ``professionalism.``
IF you are honest, as you say you are, then educate yourself about Pakistan`s history from a different angle. This isn`t to say you are not right about the dominance of Punjab over smaller provinces. But you say it for the wrong reason. For a more interesting reading about the topic I`d suggest the recent column by Cowasjee in today`s Dawn. Very apt and makes a point.
#37 Posted by shafqat on October 14, 1998 12:41:02 pm
Kirdar says:
``It is a posssibility that GAKK was not on merit but glorified because of family connections, feudal links as is common in the country.``
With a name like `Quli`, I thought he came from a tribe in FATA, not any kind of feudal aristocracy. However, as a middle-class academic, I know next to nothing about these issues and trust you are correct. The fact that this fellow is a connected feudal changes everything. For an outsider like Musharraf to be a general alongside him probably means that Musharraf is ten times as good. In Pakistan, as in other Third World countries, the meaning of the word `merit` has been obscured. Evidence: informed intelligentsia like Ms. Jahan confuse merit with things like seniority. I don`t condone it, but I must say it`s understandable. Had I been a feudal aristocrat, I, too, would not have known any better.
Saad Shafqat
``It is a posssibility that GAKK was not on merit but glorified because of family connections, feudal links as is common in the country.``
With a name like `Quli`, I thought he came from a tribe in FATA, not any kind of feudal aristocracy. However, as a middle-class academic, I know next to nothing about these issues and trust you are correct. The fact that this fellow is a connected feudal changes everything. For an outsider like Musharraf to be a general alongside him probably means that Musharraf is ten times as good. In Pakistan, as in other Third World countries, the meaning of the word `merit` has been obscured. Evidence: informed intelligentsia like Ms. Jahan confuse merit with things like seniority. I don`t condone it, but I must say it`s understandable. Had I been a feudal aristocrat, I, too, would not have known any better.
Saad Shafqat
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