And now, the army!
Zeejah October 11, 1998
#36 Posted by kirdar on October 14, 1998 7:39:54 am
Free speech does not permit officials to use their offices against the chief executive. This is not even acceptable in the most powerful democracies. If their is severe disagreement in obeying orders from the superiors, the subordinate has to go.
GJK`s statement was illogical and impractical. Most of editorials in the leading dailies next day critisized the intrusion of the armed forces in the civilian affairs - see DAWN, Nawa-e-Waqt.
What to lament the economic insolvency when the scribes in the country have become so intellectually bankrupt & provincially biased that they cannot see the desire of GJK and coterie to gain the power from back door.
Intelligence agencies report what they desire. Their reports are biased and written in the drawing rooms. Proof is the poor law and order in the country, no knowledge of Ameircan missile attack etc. etc. In some cases involved in destabilizing the country.
It is a posssibility that GAKK was not on merit but glorified because of family connections, feudal links as is common in the country.
Selection for Sandhurst training can be politically motivated. One Sandhurst trained was MLA and deprived the country from democracy.
May be GPM was kept out of gloried training courses since he did not have the necessary clout.
Flying out of BD is no honour at the time of surrender. Some will say it was desertion.
All generals are reported by the press are professional, brave and non interfering in the civilian affair. None is proved to be so.
People do not matter. Institutions matter. This should now be realized by our country people.
GJK`s statement was illogical and impractical. Most of editorials in the leading dailies next day critisized the intrusion of the armed forces in the civilian affairs - see DAWN, Nawa-e-Waqt.
What to lament the economic insolvency when the scribes in the country have become so intellectually bankrupt & provincially biased that they cannot see the desire of GJK and coterie to gain the power from back door.
Intelligence agencies report what they desire. Their reports are biased and written in the drawing rooms. Proof is the poor law and order in the country, no knowledge of Ameircan missile attack etc. etc. In some cases involved in destabilizing the country.
It is a posssibility that GAKK was not on merit but glorified because of family connections, feudal links as is common in the country.
Selection for Sandhurst training can be politically motivated. One Sandhurst trained was MLA and deprived the country from democracy.
May be GPM was kept out of gloried training courses since he did not have the necessary clout.
Flying out of BD is no honour at the time of surrender. Some will say it was desertion.
All generals are reported by the press are professional, brave and non interfering in the civilian affair. None is proved to be so.
People do not matter. Institutions matter. This should now be realized by our country people.
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#35 Posted by ferozk on October 13, 1998 11:42:16 pm
The views expressed by the former COAS Gen. Karamat were not his own, but rather reflected the views of an institution; the armed forces. He was openly voicing a consensus, that emerged at the last corps commanders` meeting, in which the corps commanders were highly critical of Nawaz Sharif`s ability to deal with the present situation.
The critical assumption here is not what he said, but that Nawaz Sharif has not heeded the warning: the armed forces have grown tired of his ``insecurity driven policies`` for personal gains and that Nawaz Sharif is gaining too much power and at the same time is totally underming the political institutions of the country; presidency, courts and now the military.
The writing is on the wall; whether Nawaz Sharif reads is up to him....
The critical assumption here is not what he said, but that Nawaz Sharif has not heeded the warning: the armed forces have grown tired of his ``insecurity driven policies`` for personal gains and that Nawaz Sharif is gaining too much power and at the same time is totally underming the political institutions of the country; presidency, courts and now the military.
The writing is on the wall; whether Nawaz Sharif reads is up to him....
#34 Posted by maliani on October 13, 1998 8:28:52 pm
Re Zeejah
Being a journanlist your response was quite odd. I can provide you reports on human rights violation during Zia`s era in Sindh collected by local and international human rights agencies. You can also look up Herald and other unbiased magazines/newspapers from that era. Next, you`ll say that Balochs who revolted against the injustices of the federal government when their popularly elected government was dismissed and fought for their rights from 73-77 were dacoits as well. And what about poor Bengalis? were they dacoits as well ????
You should be idolizing Bacha Khan and not Gen Kuli Khan. Bacha Khan was the true hero of NWFP (Pakhtoonkhwa) and a peoples man.
Being a journanlist your response was quite odd. I can provide you reports on human rights violation during Zia`s era in Sindh collected by local and international human rights agencies. You can also look up Herald and other unbiased magazines/newspapers from that era. Next, you`ll say that Balochs who revolted against the injustices of the federal government when their popularly elected government was dismissed and fought for their rights from 73-77 were dacoits as well. And what about poor Bengalis? were they dacoits as well ????
You should be idolizing Bacha Khan and not Gen Kuli Khan. Bacha Khan was the true hero of NWFP (Pakhtoonkhwa) and a peoples man.
#33 Posted by villager on October 13, 1998 7:05:33 pm
As a punjabi and a member of one of those zamindar families who are constantly being blamed for everything including the price of tea in china,I couldnt agree with you more.
Without a doubt there are serious ethnocentric
issues at play in Pakistan,however I dont think
discrimnation is the case here.General Musharraf
was chosen solely because he lacks the backbone
to stand up to anyone..ie Nawaz ..the West.
I have never met Gen Ali Quli Khan personally
but know of him through A family member who served
with him.I understand him to be of impeccable
character and unassailable faith.These comments
were relayed to me by a Punjabi General(maybe
were not all biased!)
Its is a sad day indeed when the Lion hearted
Ali Quli khan has been superceeded by a junior
officer(the two simply cannot be compared).All
of this to placate the egos of the Cowards who
rule our beautiful country(by Cowards I mean
both goverments, former and current)
Please forgive me for my run-on sentences and poor prose..after all we punjabi are only known for
our pugs and and our guns...but I plead to you
dear readers we are not all that bad....there is
good and bad everywhere..
Allah Hafiz
Be good to your fellow man,Allah forgives everything else.
Without a doubt there are serious ethnocentric
issues at play in Pakistan,however I dont think
discrimnation is the case here.General Musharraf
was chosen solely because he lacks the backbone
to stand up to anyone..ie Nawaz ..the West.
I have never met Gen Ali Quli Khan personally
but know of him through A family member who served
with him.I understand him to be of impeccable
character and unassailable faith.These comments
were relayed to me by a Punjabi General(maybe
were not all biased!)
Its is a sad day indeed when the Lion hearted
Ali Quli khan has been superceeded by a junior
officer(the two simply cannot be compared).All
of this to placate the egos of the Cowards who
rule our beautiful country(by Cowards I mean
both goverments, former and current)
Please forgive me for my run-on sentences and poor prose..after all we punjabi are only known for
our pugs and and our guns...but I plead to you
dear readers we are not all that bad....there is
good and bad everywhere..
Allah Hafiz
Be good to your fellow man,Allah forgives everything else.
#32 Posted by slink on October 13, 1998 2:29:39 pm
re imran:
the gentleman in question could have nothing to gain by sharing this information with me. the circle he moves in is restricted to his family. he has, by choice, little or no contact with the men he once worked with. the twist in the story is that he is a roman catholic, and there are many out there who would feel his religion undermines his credibility. he has no airs, graces or pretensions, and please note that he stressed upon musharrafs good qualities first, and did not say that the fact the he was combat wary made him a bad man or unfit for the job. that is my conclusion, i was merely sharing it.
the gentleman in question could have nothing to gain by sharing this information with me. the circle he moves in is restricted to his family. he has, by choice, little or no contact with the men he once worked with. the twist in the story is that he is a roman catholic, and there are many out there who would feel his religion undermines his credibility. he has no airs, graces or pretensions, and please note that he stressed upon musharrafs good qualities first, and did not say that the fact the he was combat wary made him a bad man or unfit for the job. that is my conclusion, i was merely sharing it.
#31 Posted by chawla007 on October 13, 1998 1:47:18 pm
Dear Zeenath,
Though I am from India I have
always taken interest in Pakistani politics. I
have even read some of the internet editions
of Pakistani newspapers. There is one observation
that I must make which applies to you and many
columnists of the english papers from Pakistan.
You guys are toooooooo pessimistic!
For some reason your word-processor and mind
have this ability to quickly transform
seemingly innocous events into a make-or-break
earth-shaking watersheds for Pakistan`s destiny.
Whether it is th IMF negotiations or Kalabagh
Dam or Shariat Law or the mindless persecution
of Junoon, there is always this element
of conspiracy lurking around, ready to pounce
on Pakistan and deprieve its noble inhabitants
of their cherished homeland. In the meantime
the queue outside Western embassies is getting
longer and longer. Who is standing in these
lines- sons of generals, editors, bureacracts!
All hell will not break loose just because
one general has superseded another one. This
has been going on for ages and will keep going
on for ever. If General Zia was corrupt and
surrounded by sychophants, how come Lt. Gen.
Ali Quli, upright and honorable, managed to
make his mark. He should have been discarded
long ago.
And the reason why he was superseded was
not becuase he is a Pushtoon but because
he is closely associated with the Taliban.
In all likelihood Pakistan allies, US and
Iran, vetoed his nomination. Grist for another
column.
Regards,
Sanjay
Though I am from India I have
always taken interest in Pakistani politics. I
have even read some of the internet editions
of Pakistani newspapers. There is one observation
that I must make which applies to you and many
columnists of the english papers from Pakistan.
You guys are toooooooo pessimistic!
For some reason your word-processor and mind
have this ability to quickly transform
seemingly innocous events into a make-or-break
earth-shaking watersheds for Pakistan`s destiny.
Whether it is th IMF negotiations or Kalabagh
Dam or Shariat Law or the mindless persecution
of Junoon, there is always this element
of conspiracy lurking around, ready to pounce
on Pakistan and deprieve its noble inhabitants
of their cherished homeland. In the meantime
the queue outside Western embassies is getting
longer and longer. Who is standing in these
lines- sons of generals, editors, bureacracts!
All hell will not break loose just because
one general has superseded another one. This
has been going on for ages and will keep going
on for ever. If General Zia was corrupt and
surrounded by sychophants, how come Lt. Gen.
Ali Quli, upright and honorable, managed to
make his mark. He should have been discarded
long ago.
And the reason why he was superseded was
not becuase he is a Pushtoon but because
he is closely associated with the Taliban.
In all likelihood Pakistan allies, US and
Iran, vetoed his nomination. Grist for another
column.
Regards,
Sanjay
#30 Posted by obaid on October 13, 1998 1:27:30 pm
The Chief of General Staff (CGS), Ali Quli Khan, resigned on Monday - official sources have confirmed the report.
#29 Posted by Amin Saleh on October 13, 1998 11:33:16 am
Zeejah,
quote
Dismay that, if free speech was denied to the highest in the echelons of power.
unquote
I am dismayed that you seem to propose the rule of the mob. Any organization works as a single voice and any transgression of the rule results in immediate termination. This by no means eliminates the person`s right to advise his superior of his views without making a public comment.
If a person disagrees with the operation of an organization, he should first resign and then issue comments.
Mind you this protocol prevails in all countries that you might think have a free speech provision.
As far as broad based machinery is concerned, I don`t see how the military would be able to advise the government on economic policies. If anything they should first try to propose how to reduce military spending or improve its efficiency (reassigning soldiers to health and education projects on a footing similar to the development of the Karakorum highway). This would be a true service.
Just because a person is a Sandhurst graduate, it does not make him a scholar on economic policies. How can the General(s) even suggest that they should be invited to a National council on such issues.
Please spare me the story of these honest soldiers.
quote
Dismay that, if free speech was denied to the highest in the echelons of power.
unquote
I am dismayed that you seem to propose the rule of the mob. Any organization works as a single voice and any transgression of the rule results in immediate termination. This by no means eliminates the person`s right to advise his superior of his views without making a public comment.
If a person disagrees with the operation of an organization, he should first resign and then issue comments.
Mind you this protocol prevails in all countries that you might think have a free speech provision.
As far as broad based machinery is concerned, I don`t see how the military would be able to advise the government on economic policies. If anything they should first try to propose how to reduce military spending or improve its efficiency (reassigning soldiers to health and education projects on a footing similar to the development of the Karakorum highway). This would be a true service.
Just because a person is a Sandhurst graduate, it does not make him a scholar on economic policies. How can the General(s) even suggest that they should be invited to a National council on such issues.
Please spare me the story of these honest soldiers.
#28 Posted by Imran Husain on October 13, 1998 8:49:52 am
Shandana,
You say you have known the gentleman all your life and never known him to volunteer any information without reason. I wonder what reason he could have for sharing this information with you now? I hope its not a sly attempt at getting some post- retirement importance in his circle.
If the COAS lacks guts and is fighting shy than its a matter of national importance. This gentleman (Musharraf`s old commanding officer) owes it to himself and his country to take up a pen and let all Pakistanis know. He must also put his name to this article, without which his drawing room comments will remain innuendo and rumour. You have known this gentleman all your life, suggest it to him.
Like Saad, I was quite disappointed with the parochial flavour of the article and the ensuing discussion. The success of a person heading any organisation, big or small, depends if the person has vision and people management skills. I don`t think any one of us in this discussion is capable of making a fair comparison between Ali Kuli and Musharraf along these lines. In which case Asif Omar has hit the nail on the head. It is the elected governments prerogative to appoint the COAS and it has done so.
Imran
You say you have known the gentleman all your life and never known him to volunteer any information without reason. I wonder what reason he could have for sharing this information with you now? I hope its not a sly attempt at getting some post- retirement importance in his circle.
If the COAS lacks guts and is fighting shy than its a matter of national importance. This gentleman (Musharraf`s old commanding officer) owes it to himself and his country to take up a pen and let all Pakistanis know. He must also put his name to this article, without which his drawing room comments will remain innuendo and rumour. You have known this gentleman all your life, suggest it to him.
Like Saad, I was quite disappointed with the parochial flavour of the article and the ensuing discussion. The success of a person heading any organisation, big or small, depends if the person has vision and people management skills. I don`t think any one of us in this discussion is capable of making a fair comparison between Ali Kuli and Musharraf along these lines. In which case Asif Omar has hit the nail on the head. It is the elected governments prerogative to appoint the COAS and it has done so.
Imran
#26 Posted by slink on October 13, 1998 5:09:50 am
re saad:
it was neither rumour nor innuendo, i`ve known the gentleman in question (the commanding officer) all my life and have yet to hear him lie or volunteer information without reason.
i do appreciate the (backhanded) compliment though :)
it was neither rumour nor innuendo, i`ve known the gentleman in question (the commanding officer) all my life and have yet to hear him lie or volunteer information without reason.
i do appreciate the (backhanded) compliment though :)
#25 Posted by maliani on October 13, 1998 12:50:28 am
Re BG:
You`re right on target! The ``anti-dacoit`` operation was nothing but an operation against the activists of MRD movement and other political activists who were working for democracy
It is a fact that Punjab`s demographic superiority (based on 81 census) is a problem in the multinational state of Pakistan (interesting to note that the bengalis in former east pakistan enjoyed the similar position in the united Pakistan but their numbers were countered by punjabi politicians by knocking all provinces together in west pakistan into one-unit). In civilized countries such problems have been recognized and so checks and balances have been designed to prevent the tyranny of the majority - but not in Pakistan. One example of Punjab`s domination and exploitation was the infamous one-unit scheme during 1955-1970.
Let me provide the distribution of top fifty army officers (1981) among various ethnicities of Pakistan.
Ethinic Group Top 50 Army Officers (1981)
Punjabi/Seraiki 20 (40%)
Pushtoon/Hindko 17 (34%)
Mohajir/Urban Sindh 10 (20%)
Sindhi/Rural Sindh 1 (2%)
Baloch-Brohi 0 (0%)
Other 2 (4%)
Ethnic Group Civil Service (Gr. 19-22 Total. 3117)
Punjabi/Seraiki 1714 (55%)
Pushtoon/Hindko 442 (14.2%)
Mohajir/Urban Sindh 298 (9.6%)
Sindhi/Rural Sindh 270 (8.7%)
Baloch-Brohi 95 (3.0%)
Other 298 (9.6%)
Furthermore reports reveal that in the current government over 40 top positions are currently held by Punjabis, with most of them being from central punjab. Besides the President, CJ, Chairman PIA, Chairman of PTV, Chairman of Privitization Commission, Chairman of Board of Investment and Chairman of PM`s literacy cell are all from Punjab.
You`re right on target! The ``anti-dacoit`` operation was nothing but an operation against the activists of MRD movement and other political activists who were working for democracy
It is a fact that Punjab`s demographic superiority (based on 81 census) is a problem in the multinational state of Pakistan (interesting to note that the bengalis in former east pakistan enjoyed the similar position in the united Pakistan but their numbers were countered by punjabi politicians by knocking all provinces together in west pakistan into one-unit). In civilized countries such problems have been recognized and so checks and balances have been designed to prevent the tyranny of the majority - but not in Pakistan. One example of Punjab`s domination and exploitation was the infamous one-unit scheme during 1955-1970.
Let me provide the distribution of top fifty army officers (1981) among various ethnicities of Pakistan.
Ethinic Group Top 50 Army Officers (1981)
Punjabi/Seraiki 20 (40%)
Pushtoon/Hindko 17 (34%)
Mohajir/Urban Sindh 10 (20%)
Sindhi/Rural Sindh 1 (2%)
Baloch-Brohi 0 (0%)
Other 2 (4%)
Ethnic Group Civil Service (Gr. 19-22 Total. 3117)
Punjabi/Seraiki 1714 (55%)
Pushtoon/Hindko 442 (14.2%)
Mohajir/Urban Sindh 298 (9.6%)
Sindhi/Rural Sindh 270 (8.7%)
Baloch-Brohi 95 (3.0%)
Other 298 (9.6%)
Furthermore reports reveal that in the current government over 40 top positions are currently held by Punjabis, with most of them being from central punjab. Besides the President, CJ, Chairman PIA, Chairman of PTV, Chairman of Privitization Commission, Chairman of Board of Investment and Chairman of PM`s literacy cell are all from Punjab.
#24 Posted by zeejah on October 13, 1998 12:40:22 am
In reply to Maliani...
The dacoits might have hidden under the umbrella of a political party....but they were true dacoits in the desserts and riverine areas of Sind... as for the figures quoted from 1981 ... the bias has tilted further in favour of Punjab in all fields... today there is no Lt. General from NWFP in the Pakistan Army.
The dacoits might have hidden under the umbrella of a political party....but they were true dacoits in the desserts and riverine areas of Sind... as for the figures quoted from 1981 ... the bias has tilted further in favour of Punjab in all fields... today there is no Lt. General from NWFP in the Pakistan Army.
#23 Posted by zeejah on October 13, 1998 12:40:22 am
In reply to Saeed Jaffar...
In the deserts and riverine areas of Sind... there were, unfortunately, dacoits..i am unaware of their political affiliations... but dacoits they were for sure... looting and killing innocent citizens.
In the deserts and riverine areas of Sind... there were, unfortunately, dacoits..i am unaware of their political affiliations... but dacoits they were for sure... looting and killing innocent citizens.
#22 Posted by zeejah on October 13, 1998 12:22:33 am
In reply to Shafqat...
Yes, it is one of my failings ... I call a spade, a spade... ;)
Yes, it is one of my failings ... I call a spade, a spade... ;)
#21 Posted by obaid on October 12, 1998 5:42:48 pm
Interesting read. tells of lots of probable reasons for the mystery of the superceedingbut not much is substantiated.
Re: Shafqat
I dont quite understand your amusement at the author`s comment to Muzaffar Q. I dont think the author is just boasting about herself - her comment was directed to a person who praised her writing. To me it read more like ``If I write well, its because I write honestly``.
Re: Shafqat
I dont quite understand your amusement at the author`s comment to Muzaffar Q. I dont think the author is just boasting about herself - her comment was directed to a person who praised her writing. To me it read more like ``If I write well, its because I write honestly``.
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