A Nuclear Identity

Very interesting reading. But where is Yasmeen Ghauri? Cant leave her out.
Soon (hopefully)to add the Sufi Rockers ``Junoon``
and others to the list.
The American public still misses BB and Nawaz
Sahib just cannot look that good on Magazine
covers.

Ras

Even when harping on our few glories, is`nt it ironic that we claim relics of the past which all these neo-fundamentalists of our country are trying to erase. The irony does not start with claiming the linga and cow worshipping Harappa and Mohenjodaro as our past ``by virtue of its current location`` nor does it stop with the claiming of the hindu-vedic-buddhist Gandhara civilisation as our culture while the theologians of our nation are trying to eraze our indian-hindu past, as if all of us have been transported in from Arabia. And while sticking to location as the criteria we still have to hark back to the Mughal`s for solace. Wonder when we would proclaim the TajMahal as our national monument.

Aren`t all these pointers to the fact that nuclear bombs or not, pakistanis and Indians have too much in common for fifty years to eraze..... a difficult proposition

-

murtuza

It is applaudable that Pakistanis have much to be proud of. But it is the image of themselves that Pakistanis have created in the US, and in other countries such as Norway and Denmark where, a white American intellectual--a friend of mine, nevertheless--told me with much frankness and as much contempt, they are ``visible`` and ``disturbing``. Political Correctness does not apply to Pakistanis, as you correctly say, evidenced by Jerry Seinfeld’s degradation of Pakistanis in his show, something he would not do to the black community, not to mention his affable treatment of the (East) Indians in one of his episodes. Why Pakistanis? Should the Pakistanis blame the British government`s policies if a survey in Britain showed that Pakistanis there, on average, are the least educated, earn least of all ethnic groups and are at the bottom of the social barrel. The Indians there, on the other hand, on average, the most educated and highest earners, even higher than those of the whites, and hence are respected more than any other non-white group in Britain? It is how we project ourselves. As one TV ad says, Image is everything.

Re: Wasiq, Reply 2. Right on the money!

Very interesting and well-written article. I think you are correct to point out that Pakistan`s identity in the world rests on few things, not necessarily all that we are proud of. Although there is a profound ignorance, lack of interest and a tendency for generalizations regarding Pakistan in the media, I think the fault lies equally with us Pakistanis. In my opinion we have failed in two important respects:

First, we have failed to invest in our people and our land so that we have achievements that we can be proud of. And second, we have failed to convey to the people of the world what we are proud of.

In the absence of both of these things, no wonder that we are considered to be just another ``third world`` country, with no identity of its own.

In a way, the Nuclear Identity that you mention is a result of a significant investment in its pursuit. If we could have spent an equal amount of money on education, social services, infrastructure and research (combined), we could have established another, more glorious, identity for us, the identity of an Asian tiger.

Bohat Khoob.

It was a good read.

One thing that I`ve come to realize is that one cannot explain Pakistan to people in this country,

not because we are limited by a linguistic barrier, but because a lot of us do not want to.

I say this as someone who was brought up in Pakistan, and came to this country for higher education, as such I do not have the need to explain every action that my country takes.

for example religion..I grew up with it all around me, the sound of an Azaan does not seem out of place, the call to prayers is just that..A call to

prayers. If I want to go I`ll go, if not then I won`t. I can go to any mosque anywhere to pray,

from the various Mosques in Karachi, to ones in

Multan and surrounding villages, all the way upto

Khyber. I was brought up in a country of my own, with faces that I grew to know intimately.

This is not to say that I am unhappy here in the

states, on the contrary, I like the educational

system here and have made friends, and amongst

friends I have no problems talking about my country (both what I like and do not like).

However many here do not know much about our culture and religion. The impression that most have about people of Pakistan is one that is created by what they read/hear in the news. And herein lies the problem; when faced with a blatant distortion of `truth`, do I try to correct it? and if so how do I put things in perspective? My solution..why bother? chill and let chill..by observing us, let people make up there own mind. Trying to explain/justify everything Pakistani is futile, and a waste of energy.

Someone once asked ``Sufi chist?``

the reply wuz ``Sufi Sufi`st``

( Please forgive my romanized farsi )

peace

Malangg

Quite an interesting article. However, its not very hard to figure out the reason behind the ``lack`` of a Pakistani identity . If you chop off an arm from the body, how much identity the chopped arm will be left with.

For decades, or even centuries, vested interests have been trying to brainwash Muslims of Indian subcontinent that they are racially and culturally different from the ``Hindus`` of India. Different people soaked up this theory for different reasons. For a big majority it gave them a huge feeling of self-respect.

Hindu or Vedic culture was born in the same region where today’s Pakistan stands. People of that culture expanded eastwards and southwards and populated the today’s India. The inhabitants of present day Pakistan, being at the junction of different civilizations, were perpetually at conflict with the cultural onslaught from the west and north. For a long time the ``Hindus`` of that region faced the onslaught but around 1000 AD they started to loose out. Slowly but steadily people converted to Islam. The conversion was primarily a survival mechanism. The ruling class converted to get a position in the court of new rulers, traders converted to escape the taxation of non-Muslims and many must have been product of rape and abductions by the invading soldiers. At the same time some small amount of voluntary and thought out conversion can’t be ruled out too.

This kind of defeat where one looses one’s religion by force can be highly traumatic to he psyche of whole populace. In such situations, human mind works out variety of defense mechanisms. One very popular belief in Pakistan is that though some of the Pakistanis are descendents of the converted low-caste Hindus, but the majority of them are the direct descendents of Arabians, Turks, Mogals and even Mongols. In fact the more a person is dark complexioned, the more is his fervor in claiming an Arabian ancestry and more the person can be expected to be an Indian-hater. More a Pakistani feels inferior or defeated, the more he takes the Islamic fundamentalist tone to compensate. That is simply an attempt to merge in the small minority of people who really are the descendents of the victors in that ``old war``.

Its so pathetic to see Pakistanis lionizing Ghauri, Abdali and Ghazni as the great warriors. They may be great warriors all right, but these were no Pakistanis. They were Afghans who conquered and subjugated the ancestors of Pakistanis. Same thing goes for other Pakistani cultural symbols. Pakistan has rich languages like Punjabi, Sindhi and Pushto. But all of these were superceded by Urdu when it came to selection of a national language. To Pakistanis, Urdu gives a feeling of belonging to the victorious Mogul invaders. Who wants to be associated with the defeated sindhi or punjabi!!! Same goes for clothing. Shalwar Kameez is a distinct Afghan symbol. In India it is commonly referred as ``Pathan suit``. In their zeal to associate themselves with the victorious Afghans, Pakistani men have started wearing this dress en-masse. The lack of creativity in male dressing in Pakistan is appalling.

It is amusing to see Pakistanis claiming Iran to the fraternal country. Though any genealogical examination will prove beyond doubt that Pakistanis share lot more genes with Indians than Iranians, but like an ostrich Pakistanis will close their eyes and claim to be brothers of victorious Iranians. Just read the Pakistani news papers and the note how many times Iran is referred as the fraternal country. (never mind the fact that Iranians don’t think very highly of Pakistanis)

Frankly not much identity is left if one discards its own culture, heritage and ancestry. Before blacks in US regained their self-pride they also used to act like Pakistanis. It was fashionable in blacks to lighten their skin color, mimic white culture and in generally ``act white``. Only when they realized that ``black is beautiful`` an identity of Afro-Americans was formed.

Its time that Pakistanis come to grips with their past. They have to accept their ``Hindu`` heritage proudly. They were not ``defeated``...they were just the ``victims``...

Saqib
Good Stuff. Got me thinnking.
I think you are being a little unfair, though. If you see Pakistani identity as 50 year old then you have already listed plenty to be known for. And the Nuclear bomb is probably the biggest scientific achievement.
The things that do get reported in the media are all true, aren`t they ? The media is merely a reflection, its perspective maybe incomplete, not necessarily biased. THe problem is not with the `media`. The problem is how Pakistanis see themselves and therefore project themselves. How, over the last 50 years Pakistan has tried to create an un-Indian, non-Hindu (what they like to believe Hindus are) Pakistan with a `fantasy ridden` history. Theology has distorted the history of Pakistan. In the process of being selective, theologians have ended up fabricating history of pre-47 Pakistan. I think you know better than me. THough, I can elaborate if you like.
As far as references in your article go:
Wasn`t the Pakistani Nuclear Bomb in retaliation to the Indian Nuclear Bomb ?
How do you selectively choose the Mughal empire to be part of Pakistans past ? There are more Muslims in India today.
How do yo describe NFAK`s music without going into Qawalli, Khayal, Dhrupad (forms of Hindustani classical music) ? For that matter, how do you explain that most of the songs he sings are of Indian Sufis who use Indian imagery to explain the message.
I don`t get your point about the cuisine. Cuisine is pretty well appreciated all over. It just may be called Indian or Pakistani/Indian/Banglasdeshi.
I am surprised you still call the river Indus. Afterall, thats where the term Hindu and India came from.
Interestingly, you do mention MohenjoDaro and the Gandhara civilization as part of a pakistani past. However, its interesing to note that every museum outside India is full of Indian sculpture and artifacts from these sites which come from present day Pakistan and Afghanistan. THe Pakistani ones are mostly obtained after `47. Theology, again distorting history.
Theology has also distorted Indian history. After `47 Hindustan became a bad word. India was the PC word. In the past 5 - 10 years Shiva Sena types are trying the same thing.
``Those communities that have as yet little history make upon a European a curious impression of thinness and isolation. They do not feel themselves the inheritors of the ages, and for that reason what they aim at transmitting to their successors seems jejune and emotionally poor to one in whom the past is vivid and future is illuminated by knowledge of the slow and painful achievements of former times. History makes one aware that there is no finality in human affairs; there is not a static perfection and an unimprovable wisdom to be achieved.`` - Burtrand Russell: Portraits from memory.
Now if only the `fundamentalists` (of all religions) could understand that point about history.

re: RV
Although I agree with most of what you say. I think you missed one point. In a caste ridden society, principals of equality come as a social reform. It is a different story that Vedanta, Buddhism, Jainism, Islam, Sikhism all sought to reform this with varying degrees of success, and over time all failed. In the Indian sub-continent all these groups socially ended up as castes themselves.
For that matter, every religion when it grows, grows as a unifying force. THe moment it becomes divisive the people are missing the point and it has ceased to become the reforming ``sect`` it once was and instead takes on the form of the ``CHurch``.

re iconoclast:
Your answer is on the money.

re: Godot
ABout Pakistanis in Britain. The articles I read about the current socio-economic status suggested that the lack of education was mainly because of the rejection of the `evil Western` education.
For that matter, CHowk is full of Pakistanis who see America as the `evil West` pitched against all Muslims. Yet, they never explain what attracted them to these societies in the first place. They never acknowledge that it may have something to do with the secularism and separation of Church and State that these `evil Western` countries practice and preach.

regards
RanaRansher

re RV

you had some good thoughts there, but then:

``Its time that Pakistanis come to grips with their past. They have to accept their ``Hindu`` heritage
proudly. They were not ``defeated``...they were just the ``victims``...``

i say, why stop there, why not tell the afghans, the bangladeshis, the malaysians, the indonesians to be proud of their `hindu` heritage also.

sounds like zionism to me.

Re: RanaRansher, Reply 7

I agree. Hypocrisy is as natural to Pakistanis as filth to the boars.

Re: RV, Reply 6

I don’t have the time to write a three-page rebuttal to what you said. Facts you state may be correct, but your assumptions and conclusions are total crap.

Re: BG.

I do not agree with most of RVs arguments. However your reply only validates his points rather than repudiate them.

While speaking on Geneology, you take a convenient excuse of segregating the populace into its multiple minority sects. if a section of people in kailash are racially similar to the greeks, then two tribes in south india (the same tamil nadu you talk about), the todas of the nilgiris and the coorgis of karnataka have been identified as geneologically hailing from the same greece that you attribute to.

there are people along the coasts of Gujarat too, particularly from the Gir area who are negroid in origin just like in pakistan .

The point is that while speaking of a nation we mostly speak of a majority. The truth is a section of pre-independance Indians wanted a seperate nation based on religion. And they went ahead and formed one. perfectly understandable. but once formed as a nation, they also try to sever all their ties from their seperated cousins. again perfectly understandable. And as a populace, pakistanis might be subjucted to an anti-indian propaganda to create their own identity. Hence anything anti-indian, anti-hindu is pakistani...there in lies the contradiction as iconoclast points out....

And when RV speaks about blacks in the US, he might be going too far depending on how you would view it. He is not referring to the blacks as a enslaved populace, but then as a populace after their liberation. He must be referring to the context of understanding one`s identity , and probably he refers to the similarities in this context alone.

and if there are pakistanis. who can claim central asian or middle eastern origin, then we also have indians (hindu or muslim or christian) who can equally claim the same origin. But then all these origins claimed by indians and pakistanis alike are only upon genealogy , not on culture. Pakistanis are all not converts from lower-caste hinduism, they are also converts from upper-caste hinduism ``atleast most of the punjabis and mohajirs are converts``.. the same is the scenario with the indian muslims too. and i don`t think there is anything to be ashamed of being a convert (uppercaste or lowercaste). It is a choice one makes and one needs to be proud of it.

and to answer your last point, there is a lot in common with a pakistani and a tamilian, interms of language, food, and even religion.

Brahui , a pakistani language is a dravidian language and is very similar to tamil. Tamil has a lot of sanskrit influence which is seen in hindi and Urdu too.

In terms of food, tamils use the same spices as pakistanis do, and the method of food preparation is just the same. and the food is again based on the masala, curry standards. there are variations and particular foods that are peculiar but then these would occur between a sindhi and a baloch too. and in terms of religion, there are muslims in tamil nadu too.

to go a step further, the civilisation which existed on the land which is pakistan today ``the indus valley `` was originally pre-aryan, pre-vedic civilisation and was dravidian. In fact as iconoclast points out, the only hindu god of present days, unearth from the sites was the nandi and the linga.....................

Indonesian muslims are proud of their hindu heritage. their national airlines is called garuda `the vehicle of vishnu` and they still have hinduism practised in Bali. Rama is a local hero and is worshipped as a great human being. ballads are sung and dances are performed in his name. and indonesia is the worlds largest muslim nation. the same holds good for malaysia too. And you can include thailand, cambodia etc also as nations which are proud of their hindu past, their hindu relics, artifacts and culture.....and as for bangladesh, they consider tagore as their national poet and even their national anthem was written by a hindu poet ``tagore``. they follow the same dress code as other bengalis do. and eat the same food.

These are cases where people respect their ancestor regardless of their religion... like Iran holding their current military manoeuvres near Afghanistan naming it after the zoroastrian culture... Iranians are not ashamed of their zoroastrian past like pakistan is of its hindu past. The reason is probably because, pakistan has to live with india as its neighbour. Probably if pakistan is removed from its current location and placed elsewhere, pakistan would extoll Ram as a folkhero too... who knows....?

The point i am trying to make is , we are similar in more than one ways primarily because, once we all belonged to one group of people who had a lot a similarities among themselves as they had differences . But the similarities were too many to seperate us in terms of culture or lifestyles. and today we are different nations, lets respect that but lets also accept our common heritage.....bollywood (hindu movies) and zee does not seem to be phirangi in pakistan.

peace.....

re RV
here are some more questions:

you said: ``Though any genealogical examination will prove beyond doubt that Pakistanis share lot more genes with Indians than Iranians``

when you say this, which ``Indians`` and which ``Pakistanis`` do you have in mind?

in pakistan, there are people in kailash who are probably racially similar to the greeks (a very small number, they are fast disappearing or assimilating); there are people along the coast who are most similar to africans; and there are people in sindh and punjab who are closest to their neighbors across the border.

and when you compare pakistanis to blacks in the US, i think you go too far. yes, it is important to know and accept our history. but, the blacks had a very particular kind of experience in terms of slavery. for instance, pakistanis were not enslaved and taken to the middle east, for example.

there are pakistanis, who are beyond a doubt (based on family trees, etc) of central asian or middle eastern origin. but, i suspect that actual claims to these origins are highly inflated. it is important to recognize, however, that not all present-day pakistanis were forcefully converted from lower-caste hinduism and they were not all ``victims``. some of us may be the descendents of the central asian/middle eastern invaders.

actually, the point i am really trying to make is that there is no single ``race`` in south asia. people have been moving in and out of that area for centuries, if not millenia. even dating back to the times of the moenjedaro and harrapa civilizations, there was a great deal of racial mixing. so, arguing that we are the same on the basis of genes is flawed. (and, it really doesnt matter either.)

as far as culture goes, there are similarities and differences. culture includes religion, language, dress, food, music, etc.

as far as the eastern areas of pakistan are concerned, they are again similar to their neighbours across the border in india in terms of clothes, food, language.

those in the west (pathans and balochs) have more in common with their neighbours across the western border--afghanistan and iran. which also brings me the question of language and dress you raised. you say pashto is a pakistani language but then say that shalwar kameez is a ``pathan suit`` and therefore of the invaders. for your information, there are pathans in nwfp and balochistan who speak pashto and wear these ``pathan suits``. there is no contradiction in that.

all pakistanis, however, have very little in common with say, tamil nadu -- language, food, dress, even religion.

pakistan, india or south asia are NOT a homogenous race, culture or religion. but, we have a lot in common in terms of shared history and culture. lets accept both our similarities and differences and get on with life.

Re: all`

there is no greater anti-semite than one who has semitic blood in him/her.

I could not help adding the `her` .

murtuza

Brother you are absolutely right, the next time anyone says on the radio (was it B96 by any chance??) that Pakistan is ONLY famous for the Nukes, settle down with it! Admit it, and live with it.

After all that is what the majority of us stupid ass Pakis wanted. We wanted to go nuclear, we called our leaders `sissy girls` (hathon mein choorian pehanlee hein) for not exploding the bomb. We took out demonstrations, hell we even distributed `mithai` in the mosques on Friday prayers (Villa Park mosque).

Yeahhhhh everybody forgot that India had ALREADY exploded the bomb in the early 70s.....this was just a `repeat play`. But this time the blood of the Pakis was too red to take the challenge of the enemy in stride. We spit in the face of the enemy and now the whole world is spitting on us.

I was in the office the day the news of the explosion came. Some folks, trying to be `with it` said, ``yea why should U.S. have all the power, it was Pakistan`s right to do that, congrats Anwar``

But their eyes were saying, ``you stupid third world critters, lets see now how long you can swallow the grass you say you can eat!``

So again my brother, it is the choice we made with pride and joy, we forced our government and leaders to do it!

Now WE must pay the price.....just live with it.

p.s. when I say WE, I refer to the general population.

Nice article. Loved the links about travelling through the Karakoram range.

Pakistan is geographically located where historical trade and conquest routes to China and India once existed. Thus innumerable influences of original inhabitants, conquerors, settlers, and neighbours exist.

Truly a diverse nation with links in every direction.

Peace.

re rishi

``The point i am trying to make is , we are similar in more than one ways primarily because, once we
all belonged to one group of people who had a lot a similarities among themselves as they had
differences . But the similarities were too many to seperate us in terms of culture or lifestyles. and
today we are different nations, lets respect that but lets also accept our common
heritage.....bollywood (hindu movies) and zee does not seem to be phirangi in pakistan.``

if you read my last paragraph, that`s what i said also.

how we arrive at our conclusions, well, that`s that`s a different story. i still think that relatively, the people of the western regions in pakistan have *more * in common with their western neighbours than with those in tamil nadu. that is all. i never meant to make an absolute claim. i guarantee you that it will be very hard for you to prove that balochs and pathans have more in common with tamilians than with irani (balochs) and afghans. for instance, pashto, balochi and persian are all very similar. wheat is a staple in balochistan and nwfp, as it is in afghanistan and the southeast of iran. RV already talked about the ``pathan suit`` in terms of clothing. their music is also quite similar. in fact, come to think about it, there is a sizable baloch minority in iran and a smaller one in afghanistan. and as far as pathans go, you wouldnt be able to tell the difference between an afghan pathan and a pakistani pathan. it all goes to show that we cannot force people into neat little boxes, national borders do not correspond to racial/ethnic/cultural boundaries.
anyway, my basic point is that we should not gloss over differences, just as we shouldnt deny similarities. and accept and respect both.

as far as pakistanis not being proud of their hindu heritage -- well, that`s a valid point. we are in great denial about it. its schizophrenic and messed up. personally, i think being proud of the achievements of supposed ancestors is a sign of insecurity. we should know, accept and learn from the past -- i just dont get this proud business. which means that i am not proud of our ``islamic`` past either. a lot of times this kind of pride can fuel nationalism and facsim. but, that`s just my opinion.

regards.

Re: bg, rishi

Just want to add that historically India was never one united country (guess that`s why the name ``sub-continent``), rather it consisted of different independent states. It became one country under the British rule.

Recognizing our Hindu or Buddist past is too much to ask. Heck Paskistan does not even recognize its ethnic diversity. In fact it is suppressed in the name of national unity. The establishment fails to recognize that Pakistan is a multi-lingual, multi-cultural, and multi-ethnic society.

I think one of the unfortunate consequences of triumph of Islam is that it has cut muslims of the sub-continent/asia off from their rich non-muslim heritage. For the past 50 years the consistent message we get from the propagand machinary
is that the time before Islam is a time of darkness. Our school history books begin with the advent of Islam and glorify the exploits of Muhammad Bin Qasim. For example in the books published by Sindh Text Board (run by Ministry of Education in Islamabad) there is a cursory discussion of the Indus Valley civilization and the rest of discourse is devoted to heroes of Islam, such as MBQ and even Mahmud of Ghazni and Aurungzeb.

A historical note: Mahmud of Ghazni began his conquest by capturing King Jaipal in Punjab and then invaded Multan in 1004. On conquering the district of Ghur, he forcibly converted the inhabitants to Islam. At the battle of Somnath, 50,000 were killed as Mahmud assuaged his lust for booty.

Moreover, after conquering Sindh Hajjaj bin Yusuf gave clear orders to Bin Qasim that all those who are fighting men should be assasinated, and their sons and daughters imprisoned and retained as hostages.His orders were carried out and about 6000 (some say 16,000) men were beheaded with swords.