Another Victim of the State

In case that some of you missed it please check out:

http://pakistanlink.com/community/97/Dec/05/01.html

Ras

Re: afrasiyab (23)

Hey, man, the copy-cat ``Shikwah, Jawab-e-shikwah`` did not even close to ``Paradise Lost``. Well, whatever suits one`s fancy!

Re: Godot

So I suppose Bertrand Russell knew only a ``little philosophy,`` but Maudoodi had great ``depth in

philosophy``!

Reply:

Maudoodi may not be the best example but I would take Iqbal over any one anyday of the week and twice on Friday.

Shahbaz your knowledge is limited and your understanding parochial. Temper your sarcastic ignorance with some humility...you have a lot to learn.

Re: afrasiyab (12)

``A little philosophy inclineth man`s mind to atheism, but depth in philosophy bringeth men`s minds about to religion.``

So I suppose Bertrand Russell knew only a ``little philosophy,`` but Maudoodi had great ``depth in philosophy``!

Regarding this goofy Shahbaz and his bizarre rhetoric about music being haram. Any relation to Yusuf Islam by any chance (aka Cat Stevens)? That loopy man says the same junk in public now disgracing the beauty of his creations before. Well, all the more reason to appreciate his work I guess. We`ll never hear him sing it again.

First off -- I love Junoon and have enjoyed their music for several years now. Second -- I`m glad to see an interesting article on Chowk after a long time. It`s high time a discussion of the Junoon debacle appear here.

However, I`m sick of this holier-than-thou attitude from them. Who made them the spokespeople of any generation let alone ours? It`s as bad as Imran Khan and his Tehireek-e-Insaaf party -- get off your highhorses! They are our leaders towards accountability? Do you think Salman Ahmed pays a whit of taxes to the Pakistani government (no one else does so why should he)? Or Ali or Brian? Yeah, maybe they voted in the last election, but prior to that do you think they even cared?

Also, everyone hailing them as the most creative desi rock artists has got a screw loose. Most of Salman`s riffs are ripoffs of Led Zep tunes from the early-mid 70`s and should be known to be such. To Salman`s credit, I think he`d be the first to admit it. Yes, putting the kalma to the tune of Stairway to Heaven is kinda cool, but gimme a break, it doesn`t take much, ok.

Lastly, regarding their immense new popularity -- what comes next? Any ideas? I think a Lollapalooza tour is in order, eh?

Shahbaz said:

``This is turning into exactly what I feared - a prolonged debate on sources vs. sources and

interpretations of sources. You and your local MSA buddies might think music is allowed in Islam -

hell, they may even interpret texts from the Quran to conclude the Prophet was a woman and the

janitor that cleans their dorm floor is the reincarnation of Christ/Messiah``

Reply:

OOOOOOH, now I am really stumped. I donot have any local MSA buddies here so once again your presumptious self should stand corrected as to what I am and who I am. Secondly, wise cracks can attract a reader`s attention for a very short time and maybe amuse them in the process a little but they certainly donot contribute to any EDUCATIONAL discussion.

Shahbaz said:

``What does that have to do with the plight of Junoon? what does that have to do with the interpretation of Islam used in Pakistan?(the interpretation that is persecuting minorities

like Qadianis, Ahmedis, Shias, Christians, Hindus

etc. the interpretation that involves hudood ordinances and blasphemy laws) Your interpretation and their view of Islam have little in common.``

Reply:

That`s it. This should end the discussion. If you want to protest something, be clear as to what is it that your wise snippets are aimed at. The first post that I responded to only had Islam and not this explanation that you have up here. Ofcoarse all the examples you have given here from all the muslim countries are true (However, I will take issue with a couple of them) but you came around to explaining that only now.

Shahbaz said:

the ``fact``(as you so fondly abuse the word)

Reply:

Atleast, I am ``abusing`` it with something to back me up, unlike you, I observed.

Shahbaz said:

``All the Islams of almost all the countries from Saudia Arabia, Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq, Brunai etc. and our very own motherland :Pakistan. THAT is the Islam I am criticizing.``

Reply:

Then say so. If I were to borrow your presumtious hat for a little bit, I would assume that all your arguements about ISLAM (not some country`s Islam but the Islam w/ reference to Hadith and Quran) are negative without regards to any other circumstance.

Shahbaz said:

``If Islam was such a perfect, complete and ideal system why is it that NO country in the whole

wide world follows it.``

Reply:

Islam IS an IDEAL system and that is precisely why it cannot be implemented the way it is being implemented in all of these countries you have mentioned above. Personally, I feel that Islam should not be the responsibility of a government, any government. Governments should be secular, and allow all their people the freedom to practice whatever they want. Happy.

Shahbaz said:

``Whenever you read people like me speaking against Islam why don`t you follow your own advice and repeat to yourself :``Sheraz is only talking about *their * Islam, the Islam in my head is the best sh_t I have ever had the pleasure of smoking``.

Reply:

Which is it? Sheraz or Shahbaz, regardless, People like YOU amaze me to no end. How can you claim to be so RATIONAL at one point and then allow yourself so much latitude in the land of irrationality. My own advice--to me is that from this day forth I will choose to ignore all your replies and try to come to terms with the fact(Oh sorry did I abuse this one little child again) that some people are so far removed from everyday rationale when it comes to Islam, due to several things including their inferiority complexes, that holding a dscussion with them or TRYING to hold an educational discussion with them does not make any sense.

Shahbaz said:

``Besides I do not like prolonged arguments on nitpicking sources of a meaningless, redundant religion - the women don`t enjoy reading this stuff``

Reply:

Really, I thought women would be swooning at every word you utter, no matter what the topic. Your witty self absolutely under estimates your own power you comand on the fair sex, you know.

Re; Shahbaz
`` the women don`t enjoy reading this stuff, I dont like reading this stuff. When I say women I mean all except that bald guy with 5 mutated testicles, emanating the odor of dead macchi(fish) who goes by the pseudonym of ``Aliya``.``


As Aliya Saeed, I am known to the staff and readers of chowk as myself. As usual I won`t respond to your post because of the lack of content, and poor taste in choice of words.

Nice article. Pakistani govt. needs to loosen their control over the contents of peoples expressions through art, especially since they don`t provide any funding for the arts. I can see them being a little concerned if Junoon starts using their musical platform to support any political agenda or opinion which would run against the concept of Pakistan as a separate nation- after all they are the `Pakistani` government. As far as Junoon`s music is concerned they I think they sound OK (some good, some OK).

Afrasiyab:

Good reply. Nice interpretative skills. Before interpreting anything one must understand the motive behind the lines. If one feels that Islam was meant to oppress, than each statement can be interpreted to imply the negative. Same goes for everything.

Shahbaz:

When you reconvert back, which caste are you going to opt for ?

Peace.

Re: Afrasiyab

Man believes in what he wants to believe in......

Your excuses for some of Shahbaz` arguments were a little lame and a lot shallow. C`mon you can do better than that...................

About the ancestor bit.....hmmm...you don`t have to be touchy.....conversion is not wrong.., all of us were converts at one time or the other.., even the Prophet (peace be upon him).

Iconoclast

Just a few words of wisdom:

(Shahbaz sahib, you might wanna consider this before you reply to my post)

Who are a little wise the best fools be.

The Triple Fool. (John Donne)

A little philosophy inclineth man`s mind to atheism, but depth in philosophy bringeth men`s minds about to religion.

Ibid. (Francis Bacon)

As the Chowk forum explains: A little knowledge is a dangerous thing, know it all.

Lets take it from the beginning, shall we,

Shahbaz said:

``As for your justification of Islamic censorship of Images - I am outraged. Are you trying to tell me that repression of images and such censorship is good because it brought out calligraphy ?``

Reply:

I am not justifying anything here. I am simply presenting a statement of fact. Nothing more. I happen to like Calligraphy very much and that is it. Once again, the context was wrong, I admit, but I did not mean to justify censorship, no matter who is behind the act.

Shahbaz said:

``Most Muslims justify oppression shamelessly and even with a malicious, apologetic mirth- primarily because they never did nor ever will practise it. You atrophy the soul of artists, children, women and everyone weak and that you call ``a perfect and complete way of life for all times``... I recommend the movie PleasantVille for all who have not felt what it is like to be trapped in a cage with your own rage.``

Reply:

Carrying on with the assumption that you have met most of the Muslims in the world, let me just be very clear about one thing. I am never going to be apologetic about anything I believe in. So if this is the approach you took with them (most of the muslims in this world) then I suggest that you change it before we go any further. I fail to see how the souls of the weak have been atrophied by Islam. Maybe you can explain this further in your next post. BTW, for all the movie goers, I would definitely recommend Pleasentville. I loved it.

Shahbaz said:

``Narrated Abu `Amir or Abu Malik Al-Ash`ari: that he heard the Prophet saying, ``From among my

followers there will be some people who will consider illegal sexual intercourse, the wearing of silk, the drinking of alcoholic drinks and the use of musical instruments, as lawful. And there will be some people who will stay near the side of a mountain and in the evening their shepherd

will come to them with their sheep and ask them for something, but they will say to him, `Return to us tomorrow.` Allah will destroy them during the night and will let the mountain fall on them, and He will transform the rest of them into monkeys and pigs and they will remain so till the Day of Resurrection.`` [Isnad: Hisham bin `Umar,

S.adaqah bin Khalid, Abd alrahman bin Yazid Jabir,

`Atiya bin Qais Alkilani, `Abd alrahman bin Ghanm alash`ari](related by Imam Al-Bukhari in Fat-hul

Baari, graded sahih)``

Reply:

Did you even stop for a second to notice that all of these things are mentioned together. The logic applied here is AND not OR. So music in the context of other haraam things such as alcohol and illegal sexual intercourse is considered haraam. Not without the context, mind you. To answer the obvious question, however, alcohol and illegal sexual intercourse being harram are mentioned seperately and are also mentioned in the Quran so one cannot conclude for the later two what can be concluded in case of music.

Shahbaz said:

``Music is mubah :Rassol Allah was walking and heared someone playing the mizmar, he put his hands in his ears and walked a way. Ibn Omar was with him and he did not do the same. Rasoo Allah kept asking him if they could still hear the music so that he could remove his fingers.``

Reply:

First of all, please give me the correct reference next time for anything you quote. You did that in the first case but not here. Secondly, Muhammad (P.B.U.H.) had more companions with him than one. He was not walking by, infact, he was standing in a place with the companions. He heard the instruement being played and he put his hands on his ears, not his fingers in his ears, BUT the key point is that he did not tell anyone else to do that. If he had intended others to do the same, he would have told them to do the same and should have started walking away from there. He also at that time could have chosen to fullfill his prophetic duties and could have walked over to the person to tell him that he is commiting a haraam act. He did not do any of these things.Why did he put his hands on his ears. Maybe he personally did not prefer music. Maybe he had a headache at that time. Maybe the instrument, in his opinion, was being abused by the player. Maybe it was too loud. But it could not have been because music is haraam.

Shahbaz said:

``Narrated Aisha: Abu Bakr came to my house while two small Ansari girls were singing beside me the stories of the Ansar concerning the Day of Buath. And they were not singers. Abu Bakr said protestingly, ``Musical instruments of Satan in the house of Allah`s Apostle !`` ... [Isnad: `Ubid bin `Usma`aiya, Abu Usamah, Hisham, Abiyh]``

Reply:

I searched high and low but could not find the hadith. Please tell me which of the six books is it in. Also, Prophet Muhammad (P.B.U.H.) did not allow many things for the members of his own household that he did for muslims other than his family. Maybe it is that. I cannot be certain untill you give me the proper context of this hadith. BTW Abu Bakr(M.A.B.P.W.H)`s exclamation ended saying `..in the house of Allah`s Apostle.` Get it.

Shahbaz said:

``Abdullah ibn Masoud may Allah be pleased with him who says: `There is no verse in the Quran except I know where it has been revealed onto the prophet (SAW) and for what purpose it has been revealed, this companion comments on the Verse where Allah says ``And among people is those who buy (verly the play) of speech to take astray from Allah`s path`` the companion swore that this play of speech is singing.```

Reply:

I donot have a clue where you are getting these from. I suggest, in order to keep the discussion as educational as possible that you please mention the source. You are supporting your claims through these. I think I should be extended the courtesy of being able to look up the sources. Please donot give me webpages and if you are picking these things up from the web than I strongly suggest that you get the sources as well.

Shahbaz said:

``Hadith are integral component of faith and define with detail Islamic lifestyle.``

Reply:

Yes they are. But they are less reliable compared to Quran. You know it, I know it and most of all the muslims you have met, know it. They must be scrutinized in terms of their sources. You are ommitting them left and right.

Shahbaz said:

`Scholars say that: ``Music and Quran both can`t stay in the heart of the Muslim, i.e if one of them comes the others goes out.```

Reply:

Who are these scholars. Please Shahbaz, you sound like an educated person. Give me something to work with here. Please be kind enough to mention names and contexts. Thank you.

Shahbaz said:

``And this is known by experience if you listens to music.``

This arguement holds no water at all. I don`t know what you mean here.

Shahabaz said:

``You all have been too far removed from your own religions.``

Reply:

You should know. And we are not discussing religionS here; only Islam. I don`t care what other religons say about music. For the record this I consider a personal jab.

Shahbaz said:

``He [the Prophet]was a very shrewd man.``

Reply:

Can you be just a tad bit respectful, please. Shrewd may or may not be construed in a bad way but considering your arguements, I am afraid, it can only be understood to have negative connotations.

You don`t believe in the religion, fine, that is your right but I would like to remind you that the choice of words in any discussion keep that discussion from becomming an arguement and consequently boiling it up into full blown battle. As an avid reader of your replies at this forum, I am dissapointed in your poor choice of words.

Shahbaz said:

``But I cannot blame your looking up to sufis - some of them converted your ancestors.``

Reply:

DONOT go there. Keep the discussion right where it belongs, between you and I. I fail to see the purpose of this statement anyway. How dare you make assumptions about me and about what happenned with my ancestors. Stay on the turf, please.



Aliyah:

You are right, he allowed the women of Yasrab (Medinah) to play music at that occasion. I hope reading this discussion is helping you understand this better too.

RE; Shahbaz
``I assiduously avoid turning everything into a prolonged religious debate - but sometimes I cannot silently laugh at ignorance - and the arrogance of pseudo/``moderate``/``liberal/westernised`` muslims.``

I am sure your assiduous avoidance of prolonged religious debate will do you good.

Re: All

If anyone can answer my question, it`ll be appreciated, this is something I`ve been wondering about lately.

Junoon does rule.

Shahbaz,

nowhere in your post do you explain why one should consider music haraam instead of makruh.

Incidentally, all the fundos protesting the so-called `sufi-rock` of Junoon: what about naats (as far as I can tell they are sung and do qualify as music, I don`t hear too many complaints about them).

p.s. The lines from Faiz at the end were great. Anyone doubting that music and art can advance religious thought and expression should listen to Faiz`s ghazal ``hum dekhain gey`` SUNG by Iqbal Bano:

Ham dekhen ge.

Lazim hai ke ham bhi dekhen ge.

Ham dekhen ge.

Woh din ke jis ka waada hai.

Jo loh-e-azal men likha hai.

Ham dekhen ge.

Jab zulm-o-sitam ke koh-i-garan

roiee ki tarah urh jaeen ge.

Ham mehkoomon ke paoon tale

yeh dharti dhar dhar dharke gi.

Aur ahle hakam ke sar oopar

jab bijli kar kar karke gi.

Ham dekhen ge.

Jab arz-e-Khuda ke Kaabe se sab buth uthwae jaeen ge.

Ham ahl-e-safa, mardood-e-haram, masnath pe bithae jaeen ge.

Sab taaj uchale jaeen ge, sab takht girae jaeen ge.

Ham dekhen ge.

Bas naam rahe ga Allah ka

jo ghaib bhi hai hazir bhi.

Jo nazir bhi hai manzar bhi.

Uthey ga Innal-Haq ka naara,

jo men bhi hoon aur tum bhi ho.

Aur raaj kare gi khalq-e-Khuda

jo men bhi hoon aur tum bhi ho.

Ham dekhen ge.

Firstly, JUNOON RULES!

Re: Islam & music discussion

My understanding of the Islamic view of music is that it is NOT haram, the prophet was reported to have buried musical instruments (alongwith some other things) as a symbolic gesture to express his disapproval of the culture of decadence. This gesture alone, in absence of a Quranic statement will (I believe) makes music makrooh, not haram.

Furthermore, at the time of his arrival in Medinah, the prophet was welcomed by women who played ``duff``.
And of course the long tradition of music and dancing amongst sufis is common knowledge. Now I am NOT by any stretch of imagination, a religious scholar, so will welcome someone more knowledgeable than me too shed light on this issue.

The solution for problems plaguing Pakistan by suggesting that the victims should just move out is a rather naive non solution.