Killing Iraqis Before Ramadan Starts
Umair A Khan December 16, 1998
#73 Posted by random on December 28, 1998 1:08:12 am
Re: RR (Reply 80)
I think Waheed has finally scampered away and is lying in wait for another opportunity to show us what a strong, brave, red-blooded American he is. Maybe he is watching more cartoons to glean one-liner lessons which can then edify our misguided souls. There has to be an acceptance of your views in the mainstream media before he is going to stick his neck out and support it. Remember this pearl: ``I have yet to come across and average american who say`s USA should get out of Iraq...`` Maybe he is hanging out with Mr. Average American getting the pulse of the nation. Maybe he`s driving around blissfully in his Japanese import, with a sticker on the back reading ``Dallar ki talaash!`` Maybe its enough of an ego boost that you even respond to his posts.
Re: Shafqat (Reply 79)
``Good point. In fact, they`re not. That`s why I`m getting out of here.``
It must be tough just counting your days here, gritting your teeth and not criticizing your hosts, and above all waiting to get back to Pakistan before you can really say what you want. Then again, maybe once you`re back there, you will find other reasons to support the might-is-right paradigm in your neck of the woods. Although…your good samaritan impulse to stand up for the rights of dissenters here on chowk, may be the seed that eventually redeems you.
``You must realize that it is hard to take people seriously if they lack the confidence to speak as themselves.``
If its difficult to take seriously, people who use pseudonyms, why do you spend most of your time responding to these same people? Maybe, and this is a pure stab in the dark, their arguments are compelling. And rightfully, that is what you should be focussing on.
I think Waheed has finally scampered away and is lying in wait for another opportunity to show us what a strong, brave, red-blooded American he is. Maybe he is watching more cartoons to glean one-liner lessons which can then edify our misguided souls. There has to be an acceptance of your views in the mainstream media before he is going to stick his neck out and support it. Remember this pearl: ``I have yet to come across and average american who say`s USA should get out of Iraq...`` Maybe he is hanging out with Mr. Average American getting the pulse of the nation. Maybe he`s driving around blissfully in his Japanese import, with a sticker on the back reading ``Dallar ki talaash!`` Maybe its enough of an ego boost that you even respond to his posts.
Re: Shafqat (Reply 79)
``Good point. In fact, they`re not. That`s why I`m getting out of here.``
It must be tough just counting your days here, gritting your teeth and not criticizing your hosts, and above all waiting to get back to Pakistan before you can really say what you want. Then again, maybe once you`re back there, you will find other reasons to support the might-is-right paradigm in your neck of the woods. Although…your good samaritan impulse to stand up for the rights of dissenters here on chowk, may be the seed that eventually redeems you.
``You must realize that it is hard to take people seriously if they lack the confidence to speak as themselves.``
If its difficult to take seriously, people who use pseudonyms, why do you spend most of your time responding to these same people? Maybe, and this is a pure stab in the dark, their arguments are compelling. And rightfully, that is what you should be focussing on.
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#72 Posted by shafqat on December 27, 1998 8:35:25 pm
Rehan Rizvi writes: ``BTW Saad: that`s my real name and I hope using initials in place of a name, as Sohail and others do, is not a capital crime in your dictionary. But I`m not sure anymore.``
Rehan, my friend, it is not just the fictitious name, but rather the claims one makes from behind it. The answer to your question, at any rate, is no, of course not. :) :)
Saad
Rehan, my friend, it is not just the fictitious name, but rather the claims one makes from behind it. The answer to your question, at any rate, is no, of course not. :) :)
Saad
#71 Posted by rehanrizvi on December 27, 1998 11:01:01 am
Hmmm...Waheed:
Your silence tells me you have no idea how to respond to my last reply. Well, do you? Or are you taking the fifth? I bet you have no idea what that even means. Anyway, you are not trying to pretend that you didn`t read it, are you? Have some guts and try and come up with a response my friend. Either act like a red-blooded American or shut the hell up. Wait...no, you have as much right to not say anything rational as anyone else.
Only if more Americans could use their heads once in a while for anything other than the thing they put their hats on, like thinking for example, those few of us in the civil rights groups, who fight for everyone`s rights, including yours, wouldn`t have such a hard time protecting the constitution from becoming a tool in the hands of the fascists who like to bomb others just for the hell of it. Get educated for your own sake sire.
Enough said! Hope you had a nice weekend.
Rehan Rizvi.
BTW Saad: that`s my real name and I hope using initials in place of a name, as Sohail and others do, is not a capital crime in your dictionary. But I`m not sure anymore.
Your silence tells me you have no idea how to respond to my last reply. Well, do you? Or are you taking the fifth? I bet you have no idea what that even means. Anyway, you are not trying to pretend that you didn`t read it, are you? Have some guts and try and come up with a response my friend. Either act like a red-blooded American or shut the hell up. Wait...no, you have as much right to not say anything rational as anyone else.
Only if more Americans could use their heads once in a while for anything other than the thing they put their hats on, like thinking for example, those few of us in the civil rights groups, who fight for everyone`s rights, including yours, wouldn`t have such a hard time protecting the constitution from becoming a tool in the hands of the fascists who like to bomb others just for the hell of it. Get educated for your own sake sire.
Enough said! Hope you had a nice weekend.
Rehan Rizvi.
BTW Saad: that`s my real name and I hope using initials in place of a name, as Sohail and others do, is not a capital crime in your dictionary. But I`m not sure anymore.
#70 Posted by shafqat on December 26, 1998 10:24:49 pm
Random writes: ``The ones who do respond are not intending to silence the writer, as you contend, but to show how untenable the argument is.``
Well, I was responding to an anonymous interacter who wanted dissenters to ``keep a lid on it.`` This seemed like self-appointed policing. Now you are saying that this was actually an attempt to ``show how untenable the argument is.`` Since you seem to be familiar with that particular interacter’s motives, I will accept your explanation. :)
Random also writes: ``Do you really feel your paychecks are worth it if you have to kiss that much butt ?``
Good point. In fact, they’re not. That’s why I’m getting out of here.
And Random also writes: ``Your critics are the ones criticizing the hand. They are the ones questioning the status quo.``
I think you might have missed the point. I was trying to say that all this chest-thumping sounds quite hollow coming from behind a fictitious name. So all this proud ‘criticism’ actually comes across as a bit of a joke. You must realize that it is hard to take people seriously if they lack the confidence to speak as themselves.
Saad
Well, I was responding to an anonymous interacter who wanted dissenters to ``keep a lid on it.`` This seemed like self-appointed policing. Now you are saying that this was actually an attempt to ``show how untenable the argument is.`` Since you seem to be familiar with that particular interacter’s motives, I will accept your explanation. :)
Random also writes: ``Do you really feel your paychecks are worth it if you have to kiss that much butt ?``
Good point. In fact, they’re not. That’s why I’m getting out of here.
And Random also writes: ``Your critics are the ones criticizing the hand. They are the ones questioning the status quo.``
I think you might have missed the point. I was trying to say that all this chest-thumping sounds quite hollow coming from behind a fictitious name. So all this proud ‘criticism’ actually comes across as a bit of a joke. You must realize that it is hard to take people seriously if they lack the confidence to speak as themselves.
Saad
#69 Posted by ferozk on December 26, 1998 2:34:55 pm
Re: Waheed
If you were waiting for CNN to do a soundbite on American-Muslim protest, you will tend to be discouraged. The fact that CNN and other media forums did not ``cover`` the news does not imply that there was no news. 1998, according to the American media, only dealt with Monica Lewinsky and nothing else, as far as they were concered, happened in the world.
There is, for your edification, a silent protest against American policy in Iraq, but it is concentrated in foreign policy circles and unless, you read specialized journals on the topic, you will end up being misinformed by the media. If you want dissenting opinions on American foreign policy, I would recommend The Fletcher Report, published by the Tufts University press. It is primarily published for career State Dept. officios and the articles are authored by them too.
A word to the wise, I take exception to your suggestion that just because a nation is strong, it can do anything it wants and its citizens , and the rest of the world, should not voice their opinions against its polices. If you want an example of what happens when such a policy is followed, look no further than Nazi Germany.
Secondly, anyone who pays taxes to Uncle Sam, has the right to tell him what is wrong and if BG is paying taxes, she has earned that right and it is immaterial what her national origins are!
If you were waiting for CNN to do a soundbite on American-Muslim protest, you will tend to be discouraged. The fact that CNN and other media forums did not ``cover`` the news does not imply that there was no news. 1998, according to the American media, only dealt with Monica Lewinsky and nothing else, as far as they were concered, happened in the world.
There is, for your edification, a silent protest against American policy in Iraq, but it is concentrated in foreign policy circles and unless, you read specialized journals on the topic, you will end up being misinformed by the media. If you want dissenting opinions on American foreign policy, I would recommend The Fletcher Report, published by the Tufts University press. It is primarily published for career State Dept. officios and the articles are authored by them too.
A word to the wise, I take exception to your suggestion that just because a nation is strong, it can do anything it wants and its citizens , and the rest of the world, should not voice their opinions against its polices. If you want an example of what happens when such a policy is followed, look no further than Nazi Germany.
Secondly, anyone who pays taxes to Uncle Sam, has the right to tell him what is wrong and if BG is paying taxes, she has earned that right and it is immaterial what her national origins are!
#68 Posted by wasiq on December 26, 1998 12:30:56 pm
Hay Qazi-e Taqdeer ka fatwa yeh azal say
Hay Jurm-e Zaeefi ki saza marg-e-mufajaat
-Iqbal
(The verdict of Nature from the the beginning is: The punishment for weakness is eternal death.)
Hay Jurm-e Zaeefi ki saza marg-e-mufajaat
-Iqbal
(The verdict of Nature from the the beginning is: The punishment for weakness is eternal death.)
#67 Posted by random on December 26, 1998 12:11:04 pm
Re: Shafqat
``…every now and then one comes across people who want to police the content of discourse… ``
Police is a strong word. More accurate to say that most people don`t feel compelled to respond to some of the extreme views presented here. The ones who do respond are not intending to silence the writer, as you contend, but to show how untenable the argument is. When you finally lock yourself out in the cold with a passionate but specious logic, don`t blame your critics for `policing` you.
``…It is easy (perhaps even fashionable) to beat one`s chest against the US in a forum like this one, but it takes more resolve (not to mention intrapersonal insight) to be able to question the hand that feeds you.``
This sort of reasoning completely baffles me. What you have now started doing is stating the opposing position and claiming its your own. I`ve had the same problem with some of my jamaati friends who will argue into the wee hours of the morning, going around in circular logic, and wearing one down to the point of exhaustion. WHO is questioning the ``hand that feeds``? Not Waheed. Or you. You both want to grab that hand and kiss it. You want to take off your chaddis and have this hand slap your buttocks. Then you want to kiss it again - bhai thora aur maar lein. All because this gracious hand has allowed you to earn a living on its soil!? Are you guys such slaves to your paychecks? Do you really feel your paychecks are worth it if you have to kiss that much butt? Your critics are the ones criticizing the hand. They are the ones questioning the status quo. This would be laughable if it weren`t so exasperating.
``For people who feel the need to hide behind fictitious names, that is probably asking too much :).``
Get over the names, Shafqat. This is your default codicil whenever you run out of ammo.
Click…click…oops.
``…every now and then one comes across people who want to police the content of discourse… ``
Police is a strong word. More accurate to say that most people don`t feel compelled to respond to some of the extreme views presented here. The ones who do respond are not intending to silence the writer, as you contend, but to show how untenable the argument is. When you finally lock yourself out in the cold with a passionate but specious logic, don`t blame your critics for `policing` you.
``…It is easy (perhaps even fashionable) to beat one`s chest against the US in a forum like this one, but it takes more resolve (not to mention intrapersonal insight) to be able to question the hand that feeds you.``
This sort of reasoning completely baffles me. What you have now started doing is stating the opposing position and claiming its your own. I`ve had the same problem with some of my jamaati friends who will argue into the wee hours of the morning, going around in circular logic, and wearing one down to the point of exhaustion. WHO is questioning the ``hand that feeds``? Not Waheed. Or you. You both want to grab that hand and kiss it. You want to take off your chaddis and have this hand slap your buttocks. Then you want to kiss it again - bhai thora aur maar lein. All because this gracious hand has allowed you to earn a living on its soil!? Are you guys such slaves to your paychecks? Do you really feel your paychecks are worth it if you have to kiss that much butt? Your critics are the ones criticizing the hand. They are the ones questioning the status quo. This would be laughable if it weren`t so exasperating.
``For people who feel the need to hide behind fictitious names, that is probably asking too much :).``
Get over the names, Shafqat. This is your default codicil whenever you run out of ammo.
Click…click…oops.
#66 Posted by shafqat on December 26, 1998 11:17:14 am
Waheed writes: ``We are so neatly tucked away in our comfort zone here on chowk far away from reality...you can`t do that...NOT one single mainstream media entity either criticized or protested, NOT one ``muslim`` walked out of his job in protest...:-( Its like in your local mosque where the Khateeb say`s these people are hell bound...and what`s worse is that we still don`t tell him to shove it...:-) !!!``
Very well said. It is easy (perhaps even fashionable) to beat one`s chest against the US in a forum like this one, but it takes more resolve (not to mention intrapersonal insight) to be able to question the hand that feeds you. For people who feel the need to hide behind fictitious names, that is probably asking too much :).
Saad
Very well said. It is easy (perhaps even fashionable) to beat one`s chest against the US in a forum like this one, but it takes more resolve (not to mention intrapersonal insight) to be able to question the hand that feeds you. For people who feel the need to hide behind fictitious names, that is probably asking too much :).
Saad
#65 Posted by shafqat on December 26, 1998 11:04:47 am
Random writes: ``Really! Have you found Chowk to be that fascist a space? Why would you continue to be so actively involved with it then?``
Well, Chowk is a great idea and a great product. It gives us all a chance to speak our mind. But, since electronic discussion forums tend to mirror human social interaction, every now and then one comes across people who want to police the content of discourse. Call it good samaritan reflex if you will, but it is something I am always moved to speak up against.
Saad
Well, Chowk is a great idea and a great product. It gives us all a chance to speak our mind. But, since electronic discussion forums tend to mirror human social interaction, every now and then one comes across people who want to police the content of discourse. Call it good samaritan reflex if you will, but it is something I am always moved to speak up against.
Saad
#64 Posted by random on December 25, 1998 4:32:51 pm
Re: Waheed
``We all are here BECAUSE we are not there...:-)``
Keep repeating it, maybe we`ll go insane and see the logic.
``...``profit margin`` ``bottom line`` and ``aggression`` are these too difficult concepts for you to handle...?``
Yo Einstein. Try and understand the opinions expressed. People already know these reasons. They just don`t have to wholeheartedly accept, or promote them, like you do.
``What I assumed was this forum is for either ``temps``, ``economic refugees`` or ``first generation americans``, and hence my contention``
Yet another example of you projecting on other chowkwallas how you view yourself.
``We are so neatly tucked away in our comfort zone here on chowk far away from reality...you can`t do that...NOT one single mainstream media entity either criticized or protested ``
When the view becomes mainstream, then you`ll support it. You`re the one in the comfort zone, bud.
``Its like in your local mosque where the Khateeb say`s these people are hell bound...and what`s worse is that we still don`t tell him to shove it...:-) !!!``
You don`t have the guts to admonish your khateeb (figuratively), so others get the wagging finger? Take responsibility for your own lack of initiative. And do stop projecting.
``Also, NOT one person in this discussion, took my question seriously…"
You bring it on yourself. Then again, maybe everyone else is illogical and you`re the only sane voice.
``I went to watch ``a bugs life``...``
It`s a cartoon! Don`t get your life`s philosophy from it.
``a victim, is a weak person, and to be weak in the world I live in, is a sin,``
Careful, your paranoia is showing.
``.. I faild to see you either adding or subtracting something to my point of view...``
I know, I know, sticks and stones! You can take a head-in-the-sands approach to everything but then don`t ask why no one takes you seriously.
Re: Shafqat
Ungul ? Not quite. … I just don`t want to see dissenting views get drowned out by people who want the dissenters to ``keep a lid on it.``
OK, the good samaritan Ungul then. Really! Have you found Chowk to be that fascist a space? Why would you continue to be so actively involved with it then?
``We all are here BECAUSE we are not there...:-)``
Keep repeating it, maybe we`ll go insane and see the logic.
``...``profit margin`` ``bottom line`` and ``aggression`` are these too difficult concepts for you to handle...?``
Yo Einstein. Try and understand the opinions expressed. People already know these reasons. They just don`t have to wholeheartedly accept, or promote them, like you do.
``What I assumed was this forum is for either ``temps``, ``economic refugees`` or ``first generation americans``, and hence my contention``
Yet another example of you projecting on other chowkwallas how you view yourself.
``We are so neatly tucked away in our comfort zone here on chowk far away from reality...you can`t do that...NOT one single mainstream media entity either criticized or protested ``
When the view becomes mainstream, then you`ll support it. You`re the one in the comfort zone, bud.
``Its like in your local mosque where the Khateeb say`s these people are hell bound...and what`s worse is that we still don`t tell him to shove it...:-) !!!``
You don`t have the guts to admonish your khateeb (figuratively), so others get the wagging finger? Take responsibility for your own lack of initiative. And do stop projecting.
``Also, NOT one person in this discussion, took my question seriously…"
You bring it on yourself. Then again, maybe everyone else is illogical and you`re the only sane voice.
``I went to watch ``a bugs life``...``
It`s a cartoon! Don`t get your life`s philosophy from it.
``a victim, is a weak person, and to be weak in the world I live in, is a sin,``
Careful, your paranoia is showing.
``.. I faild to see you either adding or subtracting something to my point of view...``
I know, I know, sticks and stones! You can take a head-in-the-sands approach to everything but then don`t ask why no one takes you seriously.
Re: Shafqat
Ungul ? Not quite. … I just don`t want to see dissenting views get drowned out by people who want the dissenters to ``keep a lid on it.``
OK, the good samaritan Ungul then. Really! Have you found Chowk to be that fascist a space? Why would you continue to be so actively involved with it then?
#63 Posted by shafqat on December 25, 1998 3:08:19 pm
Random:
Ungul ? Not quite. My concern here is much less interesting. I just don`t want to see dissenting views get drowned out by people who want the dissenters to ``keep a lid on it.``
Saad
Ungul ? Not quite. My concern here is much less interesting. I just don`t want to see dissenting views get drowned out by people who want the dissenters to ``keep a lid on it.``
Saad
#62 Posted by random on December 25, 1998 9:51:19 am
Re: BG,Rishi,RR,Feroz,ASK, et al
Complex issue. Your posts illuminated different aspects of this issue and give us all a more nuanced picture of the game at hand.
Re: Waheed (Reply 39)
Its very tough to understand your posts because you come across like Bashira (from Fifty Fifty) doing Rush Limbaugh. Will not substitute Sultan Rahi for Bashira, for he is a true legend. Your excessive use of the ellipsis and triple exclamations with cliches, add nothing to the ongoing debate. I present examples:
``REALITY CHECK...!!! 1) U.S gets to bomb any place she feels like, you know why, cuz SHE CAN....!!! She can have her cake any godamn way and eat it too....!!! 2) So either shut up...and make your dollars quietly and enjoy your life...or leave... 3) ALL of you are here....BECAUSE...????``
This stream of consciousness writing gets tiresome when your point, if we can call it that, is going nowhere - very fast. Perhaps your objective is to yank everyone`s chain when you feel the discussion has been exceptionally intellectualized; OR you feel frustrated at not having a cogent rebuttal to what has been said. The residual effect is you end up sounding like Bashira in Trouble:
``Touch me naat vhay oi Bashireaah.``
``Oi, vhat if I do ...... THAANH!`` (`then` pronounced in gowalmandi style)
Furthermore, I am piqued by your right-wing Republican/let the good times roll/if you don`t like it LEAVE!/kiss the Bully`s backside/life in the US is jannat so stop whining/model minority jingoism.
Your posts reek of frustration because you probably feel powerless to do anything about the obvious injustice and inconsistencies in Operation Desert Fox. You lapse into predictable holier-than-thou anger against the critics of US policy, because you feel they are as ineffective as yourself in creating a quick change in govt, media, or public opinion. Bhaiyaa, qatra qatra dariah banda aye. In your rush to judge you provide unintended insight to yourself by projecting your views on others.
You sound embarrassed about a perceived `mehman` status in the US. Pakistan gave me jack PLUS the US gave me money/status beyond my wildest dreams EQUALS I hate Pakis who gripe about anything here. Doesn`t make much sense, but this is what you come across as. Witness your persistent remonstrations to shut up and love this country cuz by golly they`re the biggest and the baddest and you gotta love `em. This annoying and unoriginal philosophy is symptomatic of many first generation desis, and other immigrants who misguidedly vote Republican. These guys think they`re very bright and have the system wired, so dollar kamao, live in suburbian bliss and the world be damned. Some of them even think they`re white! Most of them are upwardly mobile professionals with a skewed view of reality.
You must try for a nuanced understanding of the discussion before you launch into this knee-jerk one-dimensional tirade. The loose cannon approach of slamming everyone by starting ``Re: All`` belies an impatience to fathom at least four separate facets of the issue elucidated by different people. Sadly, your comments achieve nothing other than getting your name in print, and that is a dubious distinction, given the content.
``My mother was telling me as story of European conquests by muslims...even if a state flag was left behind by muslim warriors, the christians would fear it...``
I`m sure a lot of us grew up learning history at the knees of our mothers, but at some point we moved on to books and other sources of information to educate ourselves further and formulate our own opinions. May I suggest its never too late.
``I don`t think this would be an exaggeration...because I see it now, the star spangled banner and the mighty dollar...god bless america....they freak`n deserve it...they sure deserve to rule and kick our asses over and over again... ``
Self hate? Pathological? Case study? Maybe you`re playing this bad version of the devil`s advocate to inject introspection and hilarity into an otherwise dry subject? And succeeding!
``These people are smarter, hardworking, tougher...WHY THE HECK they can`t do whatever pleases them...Isn`t THIS IN YOUR FACE SHITHEAD...kinda sting...??? They have gotten every royal ``BADDU`` by the Ka`hoot`s, ...I mean come`on, is it good or is it good...???``
Priceless! I`m speechless. ``Ka`hoot`s``? Surely you mean kahonas.
Re: Shafqat (Reply 58)
Buhat khoob. Entering the discussion by playing the role of `ungul` (as in finger)? Guilt by association?
Complex issue. Your posts illuminated different aspects of this issue and give us all a more nuanced picture of the game at hand.
Re: Waheed (Reply 39)
Its very tough to understand your posts because you come across like Bashira (from Fifty Fifty) doing Rush Limbaugh. Will not substitute Sultan Rahi for Bashira, for he is a true legend. Your excessive use of the ellipsis and triple exclamations with cliches, add nothing to the ongoing debate. I present examples:
``REALITY CHECK...!!! 1) U.S gets to bomb any place she feels like, you know why, cuz SHE CAN....!!! She can have her cake any godamn way and eat it too....!!! 2) So either shut up...and make your dollars quietly and enjoy your life...or leave... 3) ALL of you are here....BECAUSE...????``
This stream of consciousness writing gets tiresome when your point, if we can call it that, is going nowhere - very fast. Perhaps your objective is to yank everyone`s chain when you feel the discussion has been exceptionally intellectualized; OR you feel frustrated at not having a cogent rebuttal to what has been said. The residual effect is you end up sounding like Bashira in Trouble:
``Touch me naat vhay oi Bashireaah.``
``Oi, vhat if I do ...... THAANH!`` (`then` pronounced in gowalmandi style)
Furthermore, I am piqued by your right-wing Republican/let the good times roll/if you don`t like it LEAVE!/kiss the Bully`s backside/life in the US is jannat so stop whining/model minority jingoism.
Your posts reek of frustration because you probably feel powerless to do anything about the obvious injustice and inconsistencies in Operation Desert Fox. You lapse into predictable holier-than-thou anger against the critics of US policy, because you feel they are as ineffective as yourself in creating a quick change in govt, media, or public opinion. Bhaiyaa, qatra qatra dariah banda aye. In your rush to judge you provide unintended insight to yourself by projecting your views on others.
You sound embarrassed about a perceived `mehman` status in the US. Pakistan gave me jack PLUS the US gave me money/status beyond my wildest dreams EQUALS I hate Pakis who gripe about anything here. Doesn`t make much sense, but this is what you come across as. Witness your persistent remonstrations to shut up and love this country cuz by golly they`re the biggest and the baddest and you gotta love `em. This annoying and unoriginal philosophy is symptomatic of many first generation desis, and other immigrants who misguidedly vote Republican. These guys think they`re very bright and have the system wired, so dollar kamao, live in suburbian bliss and the world be damned. Some of them even think they`re white! Most of them are upwardly mobile professionals with a skewed view of reality.
You must try for a nuanced understanding of the discussion before you launch into this knee-jerk one-dimensional tirade. The loose cannon approach of slamming everyone by starting ``Re: All`` belies an impatience to fathom at least four separate facets of the issue elucidated by different people. Sadly, your comments achieve nothing other than getting your name in print, and that is a dubious distinction, given the content.
``My mother was telling me as story of European conquests by muslims...even if a state flag was left behind by muslim warriors, the christians would fear it...``
I`m sure a lot of us grew up learning history at the knees of our mothers, but at some point we moved on to books and other sources of information to educate ourselves further and formulate our own opinions. May I suggest its never too late.
``I don`t think this would be an exaggeration...because I see it now, the star spangled banner and the mighty dollar...god bless america....they freak`n deserve it...they sure deserve to rule and kick our asses over and over again... ``
Self hate? Pathological? Case study? Maybe you`re playing this bad version of the devil`s advocate to inject introspection and hilarity into an otherwise dry subject? And succeeding!
``These people are smarter, hardworking, tougher...WHY THE HECK they can`t do whatever pleases them...Isn`t THIS IN YOUR FACE SHITHEAD...kinda sting...??? They have gotten every royal ``BADDU`` by the Ka`hoot`s, ...I mean come`on, is it good or is it good...???``
Priceless! I`m speechless. ``Ka`hoot`s``? Surely you mean kahonas.
Re: Shafqat (Reply 58)
Buhat khoob. Entering the discussion by playing the role of `ungul` (as in finger)? Guilt by association?
#61 Posted by BG on December 24, 1998 10:38:38 pm
re rishi
`` --- the citizens of US own the resources of their country and by being a representative of these citizens the US government does indirectly own the resources of the nation.. About the world, well that is a different matter ``
even if we agree on the legal/technical definition, private property laws translate into private ownership of most resources, with the govt playing mostly a regulatory function. (of course, im not entirely for private property, but that is another discussion…btw, not suggesting stalinist communism here)i would still argue for the term ``control`` versus the term ``ownership``.
``Yeah, you might be right. But then who is`nt a bully. ``
fine. i am opposed to all the bullying. the US inflicts more damage than other countries because of its immense power, therefore it comes up frequently for criticism.
``and i do hope that you would think the same about the Kuwaitis and the Kurds``
no one who is opposed to the sanctions against and bombing of iraq holds the position because they support saddam hussein. i certainly dont. i dont understand why one is always required to qualify one`s critism of US policy towards iraq by proving that one recognizes how awful saddam hussein is. he is awful and the sanctions and bombing are still wrong.
``the fact that sanctions are crippling on IRAQ, itself points to the fact that Iraq is not necessarily wealthy in a self-sufficient way.``
no country in this day and age is self-sufficient. even the almighty US. the sanctions against iraq are the most punitive and severe in WORLD HISTORY. my point was that its not that iraq does not have the resources to fulfill its needs. iraq is not allowed to sell its oil, which is its major form of revenue and foreign exchange. and therefore, iraq is unable to buy needed food and medicine. i wanted to point out the fact that iraq`s present poverty is very clearly linked to POLICY and not a lack of resources.
``Your earlier replies were based more on facts than on emotion.``
maybe this was a more `personal` response and therefore, seemed more `emotional`. i dont know. i still stand behind my arguments, and i dont think we really disagree about the core issues.
regards.
`` --- the citizens of US own the resources of their country and by being a representative of these citizens the US government does indirectly own the resources of the nation.. About the world, well that is a different matter ``
even if we agree on the legal/technical definition, private property laws translate into private ownership of most resources, with the govt playing mostly a regulatory function. (of course, im not entirely for private property, but that is another discussion…btw, not suggesting stalinist communism here)i would still argue for the term ``control`` versus the term ``ownership``.
``Yeah, you might be right. But then who is`nt a bully. ``
fine. i am opposed to all the bullying. the US inflicts more damage than other countries because of its immense power, therefore it comes up frequently for criticism.
``and i do hope that you would think the same about the Kuwaitis and the Kurds``
no one who is opposed to the sanctions against and bombing of iraq holds the position because they support saddam hussein. i certainly dont. i dont understand why one is always required to qualify one`s critism of US policy towards iraq by proving that one recognizes how awful saddam hussein is. he is awful and the sanctions and bombing are still wrong.
``the fact that sanctions are crippling on IRAQ, itself points to the fact that Iraq is not necessarily wealthy in a self-sufficient way.``
no country in this day and age is self-sufficient. even the almighty US. the sanctions against iraq are the most punitive and severe in WORLD HISTORY. my point was that its not that iraq does not have the resources to fulfill its needs. iraq is not allowed to sell its oil, which is its major form of revenue and foreign exchange. and therefore, iraq is unable to buy needed food and medicine. i wanted to point out the fact that iraq`s present poverty is very clearly linked to POLICY and not a lack of resources.
``Your earlier replies were based more on facts than on emotion.``
maybe this was a more `personal` response and therefore, seemed more `emotional`. i dont know. i still stand behind my arguments, and i dont think we really disagree about the core issues.
regards.
#60 Posted by Osama Ahmed on December 24, 1998 5:57:03 pm
I really can`t see how the commentary by Waheed is NOT unintelligent. It amazes me why dissenting voices are automatically assumed refreshing, accurate and logical when in many cases they are no more than dissenting.In this case the only thing this voice is, is cliched. When you cannot do much with a criticism, take personal jibes at the critic, make the critic out to be a hypocrite (which is easily done because all you need to prove a hypocrisy is any inconsistency - minor, perceived, assumed, whatever).
How is it ever hypocritical to criticize something that you sincerely and consistently believe is wrong? Hypocrisy implies a geniune inconsistency. E.g. you criticize the US for something that you do or support/accept other s doing). All other inconsistencies are usually trumped up to prove hypocrisy. If the exact opinions expressed by BG were stated by CH sitting in Pakistan, how does the the argument change? Someone`s location has nothing to do with the nature of the argument and facts: in this case, US`s unacknowledged role in the inhumanity of the sanctions (Its all Saddam`s Fault), the real purpose of the US foreign Policy towards Iraq (Oil) verses the stated one - defending its neighbors (remember the neighborly Iran), the hypocrisiy of their policy in the mideast (Israelites and Non-Israelites). That both indigenous and immigrant folks have made the US a good economy over this century does nothing to these facts.
If your criticism (against a government e.g.) is suppressed forcibly isn`t that what a dictatorship/autocracy is? If it is automatically suppressed by the fact that you are a citizen under that government, how is that any different from a dictatorship? If any criticism is met with the response, ``Oh Yeah, why dont you get out`` (i.e. agree with us or be deported), isn`t that a dictatorship? Isn`t that what our good friends, the Washington DC Defenders of Democracy are purportedly fighting everywhere in the world?
This interaction HAS seen unintelligent arguments. Anyone who can be Bully is correct in being a bully and should not be criticized. If you cannot get out of a bad situation its your own damn fault (the people of Iraq versus Saddam`s regime).
How is it ever hypocritical to criticize something that you sincerely and consistently believe is wrong? Hypocrisy implies a geniune inconsistency. E.g. you criticize the US for something that you do or support/accept other s doing). All other inconsistencies are usually trumped up to prove hypocrisy. If the exact opinions expressed by BG were stated by CH sitting in Pakistan, how does the the argument change? Someone`s location has nothing to do with the nature of the argument and facts: in this case, US`s unacknowledged role in the inhumanity of the sanctions (Its all Saddam`s Fault), the real purpose of the US foreign Policy towards Iraq (Oil) verses the stated one - defending its neighbors (remember the neighborly Iran), the hypocrisiy of their policy in the mideast (Israelites and Non-Israelites). That both indigenous and immigrant folks have made the US a good economy over this century does nothing to these facts.
If your criticism (against a government e.g.) is suppressed forcibly isn`t that what a dictatorship/autocracy is? If it is automatically suppressed by the fact that you are a citizen under that government, how is that any different from a dictatorship? If any criticism is met with the response, ``Oh Yeah, why dont you get out`` (i.e. agree with us or be deported), isn`t that a dictatorship? Isn`t that what our good friends, the Washington DC Defenders of Democracy are purportedly fighting everywhere in the world?
This interaction HAS seen unintelligent arguments. Anyone who can be Bully is correct in being a bully and should not be criticized. If you cannot get out of a bad situation its your own damn fault (the people of Iraq versus Saddam`s regime).
#59 Posted by BG on December 24, 1998 5:15:38 pm
re rishi
thanks rishi. i especially like the way you take waheed`s argument to its logical conclusion:
``Given your argument, she
cannot live in any country at all. ``
well said. thank heavens things are not quite so hopeless :)
thanks rishi. i especially like the way you take waheed`s argument to its logical conclusion:
``Given your argument, she
cannot live in any country at all. ``
well said. thank heavens things are not quite so hopeless :)
#58 Posted by rishi on December 24, 1998 4:33:36 pm
Re: BG
Some inaccuracies IMHO
you said
`` the US government (because that is who my problem is with) does not OWN the resources of this country or this world, they merely control them. ``
--- the citizens of US own the resources of their country and by being a representative of these citizens the US government does indirectly own the resources of the nation.. About the world, well that is a different matter
You said
``right now i live in the US, which is a powerful bully, ``
-- Yeah, you might be right. But then who is`nt a bully. Did`nt Iraq bully Kuwait, does`nt India do the same, and what about China, Pakistan , and every goddamn country in the world. The truth is given an opportunity everyone will be a bully as long as it serves their interest.
You said
`` because of the sustained perseverence of those who are opposed to the injustice against the iraqi people, this opposition is growing and eventually, something will happen. ``
---and i do hope that you would think the same about the Kuwaitis and the Kurds , apart from victims of lockerbie and the New York bomb blasts. The point i am trying to make is that, a emotional view over reality never helps. In this matter, i would subscibe to Ferozk`s real-politic analyses.
You said
``listen, waheed, the iraqi people do not NEED western aid. iraq is an independently wealthy country that can meet its own needs if the sanctions are lifted. get your facts right!``
--- the fact that sanctions are crippling on IRAQ, itself points to the fact that Iraq is not necessarily wealthy in a self-sufficient way. Iraqis are paying for having a leader who was stupid in intention and execution......
Your earlier replies were based more on facts than on emotion . And this is not a left handed compliment .
Rishi
Some inaccuracies IMHO
you said
`` the US government (because that is who my problem is with) does not OWN the resources of this country or this world, they merely control them. ``
--- the citizens of US own the resources of their country and by being a representative of these citizens the US government does indirectly own the resources of the nation.. About the world, well that is a different matter
You said
``right now i live in the US, which is a powerful bully, ``
-- Yeah, you might be right. But then who is`nt a bully. Did`nt Iraq bully Kuwait, does`nt India do the same, and what about China, Pakistan , and every goddamn country in the world. The truth is given an opportunity everyone will be a bully as long as it serves their interest.
You said
`` because of the sustained perseverence of those who are opposed to the injustice against the iraqi people, this opposition is growing and eventually, something will happen. ``
---and i do hope that you would think the same about the Kuwaitis and the Kurds , apart from victims of lockerbie and the New York bomb blasts. The point i am trying to make is that, a emotional view over reality never helps. In this matter, i would subscibe to Ferozk`s real-politic analyses.
You said
``listen, waheed, the iraqi people do not NEED western aid. iraq is an independently wealthy country that can meet its own needs if the sanctions are lifted. get your facts right!``
--- the fact that sanctions are crippling on IRAQ, itself points to the fact that Iraq is not necessarily wealthy in a self-sufficient way. Iraqis are paying for having a leader who was stupid in intention and execution......
Your earlier replies were based more on facts than on emotion . And this is not a left handed compliment .
Rishi
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