Here Somewhere

RanaRansher:

Kamin (Persian): Mean, low bred, wicked.

Kamin (Arabic): An ambush

Out of the former comes kaminah (mean, ignoble, vulgar, wicked, base): and kameenah-

pan or kameengi ( meanness, wickedness).

Hope this satisfies your curiosity.

regards

Ikbal and SankiSainik
I don`t know Urdu. But I am really curious. Does the word `Kamine` come from this kameen gah. Kamine would then mean traitor/ambusher or something of the sort.
Always wondered what that meant...
TIA

RE: ikbal khan and `k` vs `q`

I read your comment and i chuckled. What, you too are intimidated? :)

Saad has struggled with the same automatic u after q problem, so that he becomes shafquat - it never fails to annoy him. Shafkat? Hmmm...

Anita

Anita:

Intimidation? No.

Did not participate in those exchanges------am pleading the fifth-----conflict of interest, you know!!

regards

afrasiyab & Feroze:

Very rarely do I sit down and write a complete poem in one session. Usually the inspiration strikes a few lines/thoughts at a time over a period of days, weeks, even months. By the time I`m ready for the first draft, I have all these bits and pieces but cannot recall the language of the first few lines. I find it difficult to discard those lines, so I build them in. If you have read THANKSGIVING, you`d know what I mean.

Now I endeavour to complete both thought processes, so that the reader can enjoy them.

Hopefully it will add that certain nuance to the pleasure, if they are at ease in both languages.

These are NOT translations. Good prose, let alone poetry, is almost impossible to translate.

That`s why I call this trans-creative efforts.

Feroze:

I doubt if one can develop any software that can translate literature. Too many nuances/shades of meanings. cultural contexts etc. Translate ``parwana or jugnu`` into fire moth or bee is not the same. Or say ``nazuki`` in these lines:

itni naazok bhi na bano

shab kou sehr ho janay dou

mang laina kal

malike-e-rouz-e-nau say

kooch nazaakataiN aur.

If you can translate these, you can even use them later----after you`ve had success with your ``opening`` lines that you referred to in other interacts!

Tughral/Sanki:

My old Ferozsons dictionary on p585 says this:

kamin gah: n.f. An ambuscade, a lurking

place; a place of ambush.

In the light of this meaning, perhaps you would enjoy the couplet you quoted even more---sort of--- you too, Brutus!



Continuing with my dictionary:

Makin: Master of the house, resident

Gah: Place(used in comp. as in Eidgah,

Dargah etc.)

Hence, makeengah.

Urdu is a relatively new passion for me. As UK based Saqi Farooqui wrote to India Based Shamsur Rehman Farooqui (no relation) living languages should constantly face brutalisation of experimentation--only then will they emerge stronger(my loose translation).

Anita & Saad:

No Sahab please.

Saad:

Here in the North American context I find people invariably add a ``u`` after q. Thus Iqubal. Finding it irritating I toyed with Ickbal, Eckbal etc. Between us, what is in a name? Hope Anita does not read this! Seriously, there is no phonetic equivalent in English for ``qaaf``.

I thank you all for your comments.

Ikbal sahab,

I enjoyed this very much.

One question, though. Given your facility with Urdu, why have you chosen to torture the ``qaaf`` sound in your name by demoting it to a ``kaaf`` ?

Saad

Ikbal Khan Sahab,

I love the way you do English and Urdu together. Brilliant!

Anita

Interesting poem though I did not follow the concept of bi-lingualism behind it. Was there a reason behind this rhyme or are we dealing with a software program that transcribes in Urdu as you write in English and you were merely doing a demo..

O Brother... How did you translate ``Kameengaah`` to be whorehouse? Kameengaah means where the supplies or support systems are located during a war, or a shelter with provisions in general. Remember the famous couplet:

daekHaa joe teer Khaa kay kaMeeNgaah kee taraf

Apnay hee doastoaN say mulaaQaat hoe ga`yee!!!

Also I have never seen ``Makeen gaah`` used the way you used here... A good workd could have been ``Makaan!`` (makeen are the inhabitors of makaan!)

But if it was just to play with words makeengaah and kameengaah, then both usages are wrong here.

Please clarify! (And better stick to English poetry!) :-)

Sanki Soldier

I am not exactly sure what to say to this, but it was a well written poem. I am not sure what purpose would such Urdu and English flowing side by side serve though. This poem reads better in English and I guess I could judge that immediately because I was able to read it in Urdu right away. If that is intended then I guess the purpose is achieved.