The Marriage Trap

Ferozek: Post #36

Well, I attended school in St. Patrick`s School in Karachi and most of my friends would have their chauffers take a bus and simply take the car from them picking up their girlfriends from the St. Joseph`s or wherever they may be after school. There were a few restaurants in Clifton and others close to Tariq Rd. Also Christian students would help by bringing alcohol to the arrangements. Parties were usually in several different places. I remember attending one party in Pakistan for which the person throwing the party actually managed to rent the whole house with several bedrooms for a night or so. It was somewhere in the Defence area.

You could also go to the hotels and eat out there.

My friend, When there was a will, rest assured, there were ways :)

Bina, in case this makes you feel any better, I have recently had the strange fortune of seeing many of my unmarried indian male friends go through an obsession with marriage! Whenever they get together the first topic of conversation is: do you know any good single india women? I am going to city X to meet so-and-so`s friend? My mom set up me up with this girl in Y. And they mean it! I almost begin to feel sorry that I didn`t marry them myself (of course I am not ready to commit to a harem of men just yet, however charming they may be)

Rad

Bina... Salaam! I read your article on marriage with enthusiasm and smiled along! Since, you were listed as the editor of Spider Magazine, I clicked on it to investigate. Lo and behold, the first three links on the ``Hot Links`` page are to Islamic Matrimonial web sites! Strangely interesting, huh? :-) regards - mariam ispahani

Re: Bina`s post # 38

Thanks for sharing that glimpse into what dating in Pakistan is like! Mentally nervous....who isn`t even here? On an amusing note, the descriptions you have given reminds me not of dating, but people cheating on their significant others and being afraid lest they are discovered!

If dating in Pakistan consits of going to resturants and such, how soon before you have eaten in all the nice resturants? Also, how do prospective couples meet in the first place? I am asuming through matual friends? Correct?

Folks having more than a meal! Well, deserets always compliment a good meal and should be indulged into occassionally, because they really are essential to a fine dining experience! :)

Re: fozia

``Yes I actually have seen desi guys who`ve said Looks aren`t as important as personality and told their mothers this. ``

Every single desi guy I`ve seen (and, it goes for desi women too) say that looks aren`t important, but that always turns out to be the most important thing for a lot of desis. It`s not their fault either, because that`s how we were raised (the day the son is born, his mother starts her search for ``Chaand Si Bahu`` kind of story...)

``These women may not be drop dead gorgeous (i.e a 9 or 10 on a scale of 1-10), but hey a 6 or an 7 combined with a personality made more than one person say ``Wow, where did he find such an amazing wife``.

You are exaggerating desi beauty a bit -- how many Pakistani women can actually fall in this 9 to 10 range (probably less than 0.05% - a Miss Universe or Miss World title winner will be happy if she gets a 7 or 8). Even 6 or 7 is too high for both desi men and women (no offense to any one, because I happen to be a desi too).

Re: Bina Shah



Great article! I really enjoyed reading it. I think Pakistani people (especially women) have too much free time in their hands. Even in the U.S., `` Shaadi Kab Ho Rahi Hay`` happens to be the favorite topic for a lot of aunties. And, then they ask why I don`t visit them more often!

I tried to write the piece humorously - when I see something extremely irritating, the best way to deal is to try and see the funny side of it (How to say ``Get a Life`` in 1000 words). But I guess people can`t help but respond to the seriousness of the topic. I`m surprised that no one`s caught me out for being so smug about the topic of marriage, especially since I`m not married either!

As to the question of dating in Pakistan, here are my two cents: you tend to feel both comfortable and awkward at the same time. If you go nice restaurants (that`s really all there is to do - no movies, theater only occasionally, concerts once in a while) no one will hassle you - there are many couples out; it seems to be an accepted thing and in Karachi, folks are doing a lot more than just having a meal! But it is a little awkward because you can`t actually express any affection towards each other in public - no hand-holding, no physical contact beyond maybe putting your hand on the other person`s arm or back to guide them to their chair!!!

Also, you tend to be mentally more nervous - people scare you with nightmares of police catching you and making you pay bribes, fundamentalists beating you up, family friends spying you and gossiping etc. Again, though, the people of Karachi are remarkably cool and nobody will really care what you`re doing, as long as you don`t flaunt your activities.

Re: afrasiyab post # 29

You mentioned that your friends dated in Pakistan, but you did not. Just curious, what is the prefered modus oprendi and venues for dating in Pakistan? This may sound simplistic, I am sorry, but I have been away for too long, but where do couples go on a date? Must be intresting staying two steps ahead of the religious police. Dating in oppressed societies like Pakistan, in my opinion, is a form of expression against the prevailing morality and that being the case, what is the official and un-offical response to this sotto voce practice of dating in Pakistan?

Secondly; the people in Pakistan who date, do they end up marrying each other via the traditional family arranged marriages, or do they opt to elope?

Re: All

The emphasis on looks, profession and monetary value is not only specific to ABCDs, or Pakistanis in general, but is endemic to the society as a whole. In the present day, marriage is more about maintaining a chosen life style than it is about une union d`amour. Pakistan is no exception in this case.

Reading the posts so far, it seems that everyone is some what disenchanted by the manner in which prospective couples are chosen in Pakistan; through arranged marriages. That being case, why follow the established strictures? Start eloping and ignore the whole process and in time, it will become outdated and wither away. As to the Pakistani beauty queens and macho virtues of manly ideals, who refuse to come down from their pedestals, leave them there. In time, they will get tried of sitting in the shadow of their own egos and will gradually climb down to reality.

I am not sure who said it, but it was an insightful observation. Here in the south-west, in Utah, my adopted state, we hate prima donnas of every stripe. Maybe that is the reason why I am not so shy in telling them what is on my mind and if takes offending them to get the point across, or kicking them, I have done it!

Folks just don`t play by their rules. Make your own rules!

Marriage is the of all evil, especially in Pakistan. That`s one point I agree on with our respected PM Mr. Sharif, abolish them rigt off the face of the earth. It`ll be the end of all the corruption, economic instability and population inflation our poor poor nation has to face.

but seriously, I find the fact that marriage seems to be the only thing on the minds of the female population of our country form age 19-30 extremely sad. I, for one, completely understand whare you`re coming from Bina. I didn`t quite understand why people said they laughed when they read this article, because personally, I haven`t read a a more serious article addressing a grave issue such as this in a long long time. Our female youth need to get their priorities right once and for all. Wake up ladies.....please.

Keep it up Bina, I`m an avid fan of yours, read everything you`ve published here so far. Hope you keep writing. Your articles are about the only pieces of writing I can truly relate to.

Re: Jack Handy

``What u say is true Ms Zaidi- but there is a big dichotomy in desi talk and desi action. Invariably men in our culture ( or their mothers) always go after looks, looks and looks, - Similarly amongst women - the appeal has more to do with monetary allure and status in terms of certain proffessional stereotypes. ``

It`s a shame really that there is so much emphasis on outward beauty or income. I won`t contest that these are major qualifications for an eligible desi, however I won`t generalize and say all are like that. Maybe 80% but there really are desis out there who aren`t.

Yes I actually have seen desi guys who`ve said Looks aren`t as important as personality and told their mothers this. And in the end they ended up with a woman who not only had a fabulous personality but also was attractive. These women may not be drop dead gorgeous (i.e a 9 or 10 on a scale of 1-10), but hey a 6 or an 7 combined with a personality made more than one person say ``Wow, where did he find such an amazing wife``.

Fact of the matter is, in my opinion because there is more emphasis on a woman`s looks, they tend to take better care of themselves and hence on average are a better looking lot than the average desi male. :)

``Regardless of the rhetoric - A girl and her family crave for stability and a boys family for good genes, - of course add the superficiality of the ABCD culture and you get a third dimension.``

My first response to this would be generalizations are always wrong.

And secondly I`d like to understand better what exactly in your ``very humble opinion`` is so uniquely superficial in the ABCD culture.

Personally I think it`s rather premature to categorize a ``ABCD`` culture, as the first large group of desis born and raised in North America has just reached adulthood in the past 7-8 years.

Regards,

Fozia Zaidi

Re: Umair and Afrasiyab

Nice ironic statement, however I don`t think it is completely accurate. Both of your are right depending on what classes of society you are talking about. My personal observation has been that the upper-class/upper-middle-class Pakistanis brought up in Pakistan are far more liberal and prone to begin dating at a much younger age, whereas those that are brought up here in the US are far more conservative. Other classes of Pakistanis in Pakistan are however still rather conservative - of course, there are always exceptions to the norm.

Part of the reason for this may be that Pakistani parents in Pakistan give more social freedom to their children perhaps because they are in their own country and therefore trust the society around them. Pakistani parents in the US, however, are socially much more restrictive with their children because they are still only migrants in a foreign country and fear that their children will lose their culture and heritage.

My conclusion, somewhat contrary to your statement, is that it seems that Pakistanis are more prone to dating at various ages in Pakistan, whereas in the US dating or `getting to know someone` occurs at a later age.

Re: Futema

Perhaps the reason that we have had different experiences in the same country is because we are referring to different parts of the US. When I went to school in the Northeast, the Pak-Americans that I came across were more intellectually-driven and career-oriented and so I was never really questioned much. However, after moving back down South the interrogation began!

Perhaps the reason for this discrepancy is that the Pakistanis in the various regions are influenced by the American culture of that region itself. The Americans in the Northeastern part of the US are more career-oriented and therefore marriage/family is not given much importance and so the Pakistani are somewhat similar, whereas in the South the Americans are far more family-oriented and so the Pakistanis give more importance to settling down. Of course there are advantages and disadvantages in either one.

Re:the_unforgiven

``If let us assume that there is a God and Islam is His religion and there is a person living in some corner at the North Pole who never gets the message of Islam and dies. Then in my opinion he will not be sent to hell just because he did not pray or give zakat or perform hajj``

I could not agree with you more. It is truly refreshing to come across people that have gone beyond the word of Islam into the spirit of Islam to understand what God is truly trying to teach us.

As to who goes to Heaven or Hell - only God knows for he is the Judge. However, I strongly disbelieve the statement that only muslims will go to Heaven and all others will go to Hell (often preached by religious clergy). For I have seen some people claiming to be muslims that are far worse than many religious Catholics, Buddhists or even Hindus and ,of course by the same token, I have seem some Christians, Buddhists and Hindus that are far worse than some muslims. Shahada, Namaz, Roza, Zakat, Hajj - this is all only training ground - the ultimate goal is to attain a good heart and well if you attain it by other means then so be it.

A theorem on Islam :

Islam = Submission to God

God = Goodness

Therefore, Islam = Submission to Goodness

Of course this is overly simplistic for Goodness encompasses much (maybe I need a mathematician to add some numbers my theorem!), however in essence Islam, and other religion for that matter, is all about being good - strong goodness that is, not weak goodness.

Re: Ferozk

Actually, I think ``the_unforgiven`` is being too diplomatic in his response. From what you have written, I beg to differ with your approach toward religion or life in general. You seem like a nice guy, but some of the things you say...whew! Too much for me :)

Re: Content

My experience in the U.S. has been very different when it comes to the issue of marriage. While I can relate to Bina`s account, I don`t think the issue is approached in the same manner here. But then that`s a whole saga in itself :)

I long gave up on the idea of finding a perfect match for myself, because,I know, I myself am not perfect. For us to think we should find somebody to match our status, looks, education or ``ideal`` is nothing more than naive.

This is not to say that we should short change ourselves, but keep in mind that Knight in the shining armor have long vanished.

I fell in love with a girl on my visit to Pakistan. Though she differs from me on various issues, we have tried to make our union work. There are times that I question whether she`s perfect enough for me or vice versa, but I choose to overlook these thoughts and concentrate more on making our relationship work. Not surprisingly, past six months have so far been the happiest days of my life, and I don`t see why the rest of our lives shouldn`t be the same.

Bottom line? Little imperfections are what make life worth living, for both partners enjoy guiding each other through the maze of life.

I LOVE YOU R

Re: Unforgiven post # 30

My mistake! I apprently misread your post and thus, drew the wrong conclusions. Thanks for clarifying the intent of your posts.

On the other hand, I was hoping to start heated argument and some how tie it in with the article!

Re:

Umair01,

I am not sure, given that what you say is right on your end, if we come from the same Pakistan, here. All my friends around me dated although I never took part in that activity but I know for a fact that you can date in Pakistan.

Re: Unforgiven post # 25

Like I said, I like being noticed, but whether some notices me is another story! :)

As to your re-explication of the terms actus rea and mens rea, being applicable to people within a context of heavan and hell intentions, that is a case of deducio illogica.

These questions are asked without any rancour or bitterness and I am only asking them, because I am merely interested.

Correct me if I am wrong, but are you assuming that I am being a hypocite for wishing to go heavan, but pretending other wise? What if I told you that I have no interest in going to heavan? First of all is there a heavan or hell and realitically if the choice is mine, then why do I have to follow criterias and standards which are not mine? Do we really have choice in going to either heavan or hell? Will you then deny me that choice, based on your own personal perceptions and call me wrong, because I do not follow the majority opinion? In a more critical sense, how do you know what is my true intent and if you are guessing at it, then you are not likely to be right, right?

Irony:

In the US I can date and get to know someone but their aren`t very many Pakistani women around.

In Pakistan I can`t date or get to know someone but pakistani women are everywhere..

umair