The Marriage Trap

Re: # 4
welll soo true i really belive in this...its all about no plat form for like minds to get togather....families staying in abroad have issues of social contact with the families back home..and it gets hard for the young ones like us to risk our life with a family which use to live in our folks village.....

I admit that getting married in relatives does some how protects or safe guard the relationship....but thats is no assurity....MINDS can not be changed its just a metter of interacting with the same person in different situation....and u will know the reality...

any ways,,,,a very well written subject

totally relate to where you`re coming from bina. oh and i loved your book, where they dream in blue...did refer to it in my thesis for my ma english lit. a few years ago. cheers.

Great article. I could totally relate to it!!

well it is only natural that the fox says ``the grapes are saur``

nice article bina. the only thing i really wish men to women ratio be 1:13 that would make our life so interesting.

i`m going to get my best sister and my best friend to read this. no jokes, it`s a transcript of years of our rage and frustration. the tourette`s approach is an INSTITUTION, the more bizarre the word association, the better. sometimes the inside jokes get a little lonely, though.

keep up the good work.

it is strange. some articles of yours make me livid as hell, some make me feel great. of some, i dont know what to say..and this is one of those pieces!

buss sirf itna:niyat achi tau acha he hota hai, you will inshaALLAH find your share of deserved peace...so himmat na haar...!!!

whatver happens, happens for the best

need a lot of blind faith to believe in this adage..but it is true,. trust me

good luck

Allah haafiz

haider

sir:

the male in yale

female in nyu

wow

wont that guarantee a successful marriage!

some ppl are ...STILL naive..i bet you go to stanford..right sir?

Allah haafiz

sanity coupled with modesty is a hard to find virtue these days

Screwed up...is a word used often in a place where some aberrant reprobates find solace ( in amrikah bahadur )..i am sure you ALL REALLY know its meaning...!!!!

May the POWER THAT IS guide the womenfolk and the brand of ACCEPTABLE DEBAUCHED MEN THAT FORM THEIR STEADY BOYFRIENDS/FRIENDS ONLY OR WHATEVER .... to sanity!

unbridled freedom has its price and that is loneliness and melancholy!

but where are all the sane ppl?

take care

Allah haafiz

p.s:

call me a sexist chauvinist anachronistic creature...i dont mind!

pps: good men in Canada and America..might as well buy that ( for a cheap price ) but where are the GOOD women???...NOT HERE BUDDY!!!:)..call me a sexist chauvinist anachronistic creature...i dont mind!

screwed up...is a word used often where you live..i am sure you REALLY know its meaning...

may the POWER THAT IS ...guide the womenfolk and the brand of ACCEPTABLE DEBAUCHED MEN THAT FORM THEIR STEADY BOYFRIENDS FOR 4-5 years ( and dont marry) to sanity!...............

unbridled freedom has its price and that is loneliness and melancholy!

but where are all the sane ppl?

take care

Allah haafiz

p.s: good men in canada and america..might as well buy that ( for a cheap price ) but where are the GOOD women???...NOT HERE BUDDY!!!:)

screwed up...is a word used often where you live..i am sure you REALLY know its meaning...

may the POWER THAT IS ...guide the womenfolk and the brand of ACCEPTABLE DEBAUCHED MEN THAT FORM THEIR STEADY BOYFRIENDS FOR 4-5 years ( and dont marry) to sanity!...............

unbridled freedom has its prcie and many pay for it...long live ..sane ppl!

take care

Allahhaafiz

p.s: good men in canada and america..might as well buy that ( for a cheap price ) but where are the GOOD women...NOT HERE BUDDY!!!:)

Hi, nice article. It is indeed sad that every woman in Pakistan feels like she needs to be married to some slob to be able to feel a sense of accomplishment or pride. So many of these women are very talented and have so much potential, but what happens, the parents arrange a marriage with some moron or the other who doesn`t appreciate who he`s with. As soon as they get married, they discover sex and pump one baby out after the other.

It`s tragic really, but, hey, there isn`t much that can be done about it. The key to this whole mess would be to educate everyone.

Oh well, life goes on in Pakistan.

DEAR MS B....

I`LL PRAY FOR U AND OTHERS....AND WISH U ALL GOOD LUCK.....IF U BELIEVE IN LOVE AFTER MARRAIGE U`LL DO JUST FINE........IF U TRY TO FALL IN LOVE BEFORE U GET MARRIED U`LL BUY ONE WAY TICKET TO HELL (OPINION....)

WOMEN HAVE A LONG WAY TO GO--EDUCATION AND FINANCIAL INDEPENDENCE IS FIRST STEP........MOST OF MY MALE COUSINS WHO WERE RAISED IN US WENT TO YALE AND FEMALES WENT TO NYU..............

IT APPEARS THAT U R WELL EDUCATED...BECOME FINANCIALLY INDEPENDANT AND U`LL DO JUST FINE...........WOMEN SET THEMSELVES UP FOR POSTMARITAL ABUSE BY MANY BY NOT DOING THE ABOVE MENTIONED HOMEWORK....

HAIDER....

ILLINOIS,USA

Dear Bina,

That was a very well written, amusing, yet simultaneously thought provoking piece of writing.

I think that we can all divide marriage into two categories. I mean, how we would like to get married: 1) the `fantasy`--meet someone with all the characteristics you`d like in your `ideal` and (2) the `reality`--meet someone whom your parents have chosen but hopefully with your consent and input.

(1) does not happen very often in my experience (except in Bollywood). However, everyone would ideally like this method of getting married. However in the real world it just doesn`t work.

The break up statistics of `love` marriages in the US/England are enough proof of this.

(2) This method is potentially very good. I think Rehan summed it up with these comments,

``But mosttly, it`s because the entire marriage system in our culture, well if we can call it a

system, is flawed. At least for those who`d like to have a say in determining who they should

spend the rest of their lives with. Because if you notice, people who have no preferences, i.e. ji

ammi or ji abba jaysa aap munasib samjhayn, are usually the ones who get married to

whomever quickly and live ``happily`` ever after, well, most of the time.

But if you are educated and have a preference, well then, good luck. In addition, if you are

good looking and attractive, and seeking the same, then you are truly doomed. Now the part

that gets even trickier is when you would like to have a say, but still are culturally and/or

religiously inclined and are still relying on the traditional system of waiting for a ``good`` rishta, in

girls` case, or unable to ``find`` a suitable rishta, in the case of guys. This, my friend, is WHY

getting M-A-R-R-I-E-D has become similar to climbing Mt.Everest for these young people.``

Indeed, the educated university-going desis, certainly those living in the West--I`m one--are in a dilemma. Especially since most of us are from working or lower middle class backgrounds originally. Most of the girls our parents suggest we marry from back home tend to be from gaons and are as such not compatible for that reason being, often, very lowly educated. They have all the many other good qualities though like maasomiyat, adab etc.

The kind we would like, certainly I`m speaking for myself, that is, educated middle class girls from the big cities like Lahore and Karachi (not the super-rich `elite-who are more American than the Americans!) are often from different social class from our parents therefore it is very difficult to set up a meeting or seek `rishtas` in that social class. It happens, but is very rare.

This leaves the girls ABCDs/BBCDs--here again you have the traditional and the `modern`. Depending on ones preference one can ask one`s parents to find a suitable girl for you. Again problems arise like, social class and `zaat` as well as the preference by parents for you to marry a girl from back home. The only alternative is if you have a female cousin or close fam,ily friend`s daughter whom fits some of the qualities you seek.

It is a big problem!

The only solution is to forget your dreams and marry a girl with only some of the qualities you seek...and keep your parents happy too.

Ferozek:

Does that mean, as far as Pakistani youths are concerned, at least the educated ones, they do not see any socio-religious distinctions in interacting with christian youths in a social setting?

Reply:

No, atleast we didn`t. There were more Muslims in St Pats than Christians but still there were a good number of Christians there too. We were very comfortable with them all along. I am still friends with a few who are still in Pakistan. Infact, now that I think about it, I am the only Sunni Muslim in my group. Others included four Christians, One Bohri and a Hindu.

Re: afrasiyab`s post # 43

Thanks for that infomation! The logistics of eating out in a hotel and later retiring to rooms in the same hotel sounds like a practical idea. Another interesting thing that you mentioned was the christians bringing alcohol. Does that mean, as far as Pakistani youths are concerned, at least the educated ones, they do not see any socio-religious distinctions in interacting with christian youths in a social setting?

This is a tangent to the dating situation in Pakistan. Having lived in Utah, I have picked out quite a few things about the Mormon culture and Mormon religion. Like Islam, Mormonism prohibts sex before the marriage and drinking any alcohol or caffenine beverage. Needless to say, that does not stop those who want to drink. On the matter of sex, it gets a little more interesting. The students at Brigham Young University (BYU), a religious university, are segregated along the gender and dating and other social events involving men and women, on campus, is frowned upon. All such activity is organzied and watched by the church.

Most of the students who go to BYU are religious and they do not want to break the commandment ``thou shallt not commit adulatry``, but they still want to have sex. Most of the time, their only sexual release is through dry-humping (levi loving and I am against that idea, because as my cousin in the PAF would say: you can`t bomb half a bridge; do the job right or don`t do it!)and through prolonged foreplays, but without any sex involved.

Those who want to have sex with out breaking any taboo, drive to Las Vegas for a weekend and get married. Thus, they have sex all weekend long and before coming back, they just get divorced. This way as their reasonings go, they are not breaking their religious vows not to have sex! This goes on with all the time at BYU and it is not suprising for a guy, during his college career, to have been ``married`` to ten or more girls!

Also, the Mormon religion only allows the missionary position for sex and most of the guys who do indulge in it tend to be inexperienced. On college campuses in Utah, it is not unusual for girls to ask other guys, who are sexually active, for ways to improve their sex lives. This is really weird, but these girls will not tell their boyfriends about their lack of sexual experience. Those that do, tend to get labelled as sluts and in some cases, they also get physically abused. One of my fraternity friend`s wife, when they were dating, told me that he was a ``two pump charlie`` and he was not satisfying her. Every
one in the fraternity knew she was cheating on him, because of this reason and I know this, because I once fooled around with her too when he was out of town! They are married now and got almost divorced, because had an affair.

There is so much misinformation about sex in Utah, because the Mormon religious influence in local politics prevents sex education in schools. Hence, Utah has one of the highest rates of teen births in the nation. Mormons do not like to talk about sex, because they think that if you talk about it, the spirit will your body and your soul will be condemed for thinking impure thoughts!

I just hope that Pakistanis kids who are sexually active, know about STDs and are using preventive care. Those who are interested, do they have access to sex education related information?

Trust me yaar, I know there is a way when I have a will to do something! Thanks for your reply and I am sorry for this tangent, I just got carried away!

Ferozek: Post #36

Well, I attended school in St. Patrick`s School in Karachi and most of my friends would have their chauffers take a bus and simply take the car from them picking up their girlfriends from the St. Joseph`s or wherever they may be after school. There were a few restaurants in Clifton and others close to Tariq Rd. Also Christian students would help by bringing alcohol to the arrangements. Parties were usually in several different places. I remember attending one party in Pakistan for which the person throwing the party actually managed to rent the whole house with several bedrooms for a night or so. It was somewhere in the Defence area.

You could also go to the hotels and eat out there.

My friend, When there was a will, rest assured, there were ways :)

Bina, in case this makes you feel any better, I have recently had the strange fortune of seeing many of my unmarried indian male friends go through an obsession with marriage! Whenever they get together the first topic of conversation is: do you know any good single india women? I am going to city X to meet so-and-so`s friend? My mom set up me up with this girl in Y. And they mean it! I almost begin to feel sorry that I didn`t marry them myself (of course I am not ready to commit to a harem of men just yet, however charming they may be)

Rad

Bina... Salaam! I read your article on marriage with enthusiasm and smiled along! Since, you were listed as the editor of Spider Magazine, I clicked on it to investigate. Lo and behold, the first three links on the ``Hot Links`` page are to Islamic Matrimonial web sites! Strangely interesting, huh? :-) regards - mariam ispahani

Re: Bina`s post # 38

Thanks for sharing that glimpse into what dating in Pakistan is like! Mentally nervous....who isn`t even here? On an amusing note, the descriptions you have given reminds me not of dating, but people cheating on their significant others and being afraid lest they are discovered!

If dating in Pakistan consits of going to resturants and such, how soon before you have eaten in all the nice resturants? Also, how do prospective couples meet in the first place? I am asuming through matual friends? Correct?

Folks having more than a meal! Well, deserets always compliment a good meal and should be indulged into occassionally, because they really are essential to a fine dining experience! :)

Re: fozia

``Yes I actually have seen desi guys who`ve said Looks aren`t as important as personality and told their mothers this. ``

Every single desi guy I`ve seen (and, it goes for desi women too) say that looks aren`t important, but that always turns out to be the most important thing for a lot of desis. It`s not their fault either, because that`s how we were raised (the day the son is born, his mother starts her search for ``Chaand Si Bahu`` kind of story...)

``These women may not be drop dead gorgeous (i.e a 9 or 10 on a scale of 1-10), but hey a 6 or an 7 combined with a personality made more than one person say ``Wow, where did he find such an amazing wife``.

You are exaggerating desi beauty a bit -- how many Pakistani women can actually fall in this 9 to 10 range (probably less than 0.05% - a Miss Universe or Miss World title winner will be happy if she gets a 7 or 8). Even 6 or 7 is too high for both desi men and women (no offense to any one, because I happen to be a desi too).

Re: Bina Shah



Great article! I really enjoyed reading it. I think Pakistani people (especially women) have too much free time in their hands. Even in the U.S., `` Shaadi Kab Ho Rahi Hay`` happens to be the favorite topic for a lot of aunties. And, then they ask why I don`t visit them more often!

I tried to write the piece humorously - when I see something extremely irritating, the best way to deal is to try and see the funny side of it (How to say ``Get a Life`` in 1000 words). But I guess people can`t help but respond to the seriousness of the topic. I`m surprised that no one`s caught me out for being so smug about the topic of marriage, especially since I`m not married either!

As to the question of dating in Pakistan, here are my two cents: you tend to feel both comfortable and awkward at the same time. If you go nice restaurants (that`s really all there is to do - no movies, theater only occasionally, concerts once in a while) no one will hassle you - there are many couples out; it seems to be an accepted thing and in Karachi, folks are doing a lot more than just having a meal! But it is a little awkward because you can`t actually express any affection towards each other in public - no hand-holding, no physical contact beyond maybe putting your hand on the other person`s arm or back to guide them to their chair!!!

Also, you tend to be mentally more nervous - people scare you with nightmares of police catching you and making you pay bribes, fundamentalists beating you up, family friends spying you and gossiping etc. Again, though, the people of Karachi are remarkably cool and nobody will really care what you`re doing, as long as you don`t flaunt your activities.

Re: afrasiyab post # 29

You mentioned that your friends dated in Pakistan, but you did not. Just curious, what is the prefered modus oprendi and venues for dating in Pakistan? This may sound simplistic, I am sorry, but I have been away for too long, but where do couples go on a date? Must be intresting staying two steps ahead of the religious police. Dating in oppressed societies like Pakistan, in my opinion, is a form of expression against the prevailing morality and that being the case, what is the official and un-offical response to this sotto voce practice of dating in Pakistan?

Secondly; the people in Pakistan who date, do they end up marrying each other via the traditional family arranged marriages, or do they opt to elope?

Re: All

The emphasis on looks, profession and monetary value is not only specific to ABCDs, or Pakistanis in general, but is endemic to the society as a whole. In the present day, marriage is more about maintaining a chosen life style than it is about une union d`amour. Pakistan is no exception in this case.

Reading the posts so far, it seems that everyone is some what disenchanted by the manner in which prospective couples are chosen in Pakistan; through arranged marriages. That being case, why follow the established strictures? Start eloping and ignore the whole process and in time, it will become outdated and wither away. As to the Pakistani beauty queens and macho virtues of manly ideals, who refuse to come down from their pedestals, leave them there. In time, they will get tried of sitting in the shadow of their own egos and will gradually climb down to reality.

I am not sure who said it, but it was an insightful observation. Here in the south-west, in Utah, my adopted state, we hate prima donnas of every stripe. Maybe that is the reason why I am not so shy in telling them what is on my mind and if takes offending them to get the point across, or kicking them, I have done it!

Folks just don`t play by their rules. Make your own rules!

Marriage is the of all evil, especially in Pakistan. That`s one point I agree on with our respected PM Mr. Sharif, abolish them rigt off the face of the earth. It`ll be the end of all the corruption, economic instability and population inflation our poor poor nation has to face.

but seriously, I find the fact that marriage seems to be the only thing on the minds of the female population of our country form age 19-30 extremely sad. I, for one, completely understand whare you`re coming from Bina. I didn`t quite understand why people said they laughed when they read this article, because personally, I haven`t read a a more serious article addressing a grave issue such as this in a long long time. Our female youth need to get their priorities right once and for all. Wake up ladies.....please.

Keep it up Bina, I`m an avid fan of yours, read everything you`ve published here so far. Hope you keep writing. Your articles are about the only pieces of writing I can truly relate to.

Re: Jack Handy

``What u say is true Ms Zaidi- but there is a big dichotomy in desi talk and desi action. Invariably men in our culture ( or their mothers) always go after looks, looks and looks, - Similarly amongst women - the appeal has more to do with monetary allure and status in terms of certain proffessional stereotypes. ``

It`s a shame really that there is so much emphasis on outward beauty or income. I won`t contest that these are major qualifications for an eligible desi, however I won`t generalize and say all are like that. Maybe 80% but there really are desis out there who aren`t.

Yes I actually have seen desi guys who`ve said Looks aren`t as important as personality and told their mothers this. And in the end they ended up with a woman who not only had a fabulous personality but also was attractive. These women may not be drop dead gorgeous (i.e a 9 or 10 on a scale of 1-10), but hey a 6 or an 7 combined with a personality made more than one person say ``Wow, where did he find such an amazing wife``.

Fact of the matter is, in my opinion because there is more emphasis on a woman`s looks, they tend to take better care of themselves and hence on average are a better looking lot than the average desi male. :)

``Regardless of the rhetoric - A girl and her family crave for stability and a boys family for good genes, - of course add the superficiality of the ABCD culture and you get a third dimension.``

My first response to this would be generalizations are always wrong.

And secondly I`d like to understand better what exactly in your ``very humble opinion`` is so uniquely superficial in the ABCD culture.

Personally I think it`s rather premature to categorize a ``ABCD`` culture, as the first large group of desis born and raised in North America has just reached adulthood in the past 7-8 years.

Regards,

Fozia Zaidi

Re: Umair and Afrasiyab

Nice ironic statement, however I don`t think it is completely accurate. Both of your are right depending on what classes of society you are talking about. My personal observation has been that the upper-class/upper-middle-class Pakistanis brought up in Pakistan are far more liberal and prone to begin dating at a much younger age, whereas those that are brought up here in the US are far more conservative. Other classes of Pakistanis in Pakistan are however still rather conservative - of course, there are always exceptions to the norm.

Part of the reason for this may be that Pakistani parents in Pakistan give more social freedom to their children perhaps because they are in their own country and therefore trust the society around them. Pakistani parents in the US, however, are socially much more restrictive with their children because they are still only migrants in a foreign country and fear that their children will lose their culture and heritage.

My conclusion, somewhat contrary to your statement, is that it seems that Pakistanis are more prone to dating at various ages in Pakistan, whereas in the US dating or `getting to know someone` occurs at a later age.

Re: Futema

Perhaps the reason that we have had different experiences in the same country is because we are referring to different parts of the US. When I went to school in the Northeast, the Pak-Americans that I came across were more intellectually-driven and career-oriented and so I was never really questioned much. However, after moving back down South the interrogation began!

Perhaps the reason for this discrepancy is that the Pakistanis in the various regions are influenced by the American culture of that region itself. The Americans in the Northeastern part of the US are more career-oriented and therefore marriage/family is not given much importance and so the Pakistani are somewhat similar, whereas in the South the Americans are far more family-oriented and so the Pakistanis give more importance to settling down. Of course there are advantages and disadvantages in either one.

Re:the_unforgiven

``If let us assume that there is a God and Islam is His religion and there is a person living in some corner at the North Pole who never gets the message of Islam and dies. Then in my opinion he will not be sent to hell just because he did not pray or give zakat or perform hajj``

I could not agree with you more. It is truly refreshing to come across people that have gone beyond the word of Islam into the spirit of Islam to understand what God is truly trying to teach us.

As to who goes to Heaven or Hell - only God knows for he is the Judge. However, I strongly disbelieve the statement that only muslims will go to Heaven and all others will go to Hell (often preached by religious clergy). For I have seen some people claiming to be muslims that are far worse than many religious Catholics, Buddhists or even Hindus and ,of course by the same token, I have seem some Christians, Buddhists and Hindus that are far worse than some muslims. Shahada, Namaz, Roza, Zakat, Hajj - this is all only training ground - the ultimate goal is to attain a good heart and well if you attain it by other means then so be it.

A theorem on Islam :

Islam = Submission to God

God = Goodness

Therefore, Islam = Submission to Goodness

Of course this is overly simplistic for Goodness encompasses much (maybe I need a mathematician to add some numbers my theorem!), however in essence Islam, and other religion for that matter, is all about being good - strong goodness that is, not weak goodness.

Re: Ferozk

Actually, I think ``the_unforgiven`` is being too diplomatic in his response. From what you have written, I beg to differ with your approach toward religion or life in general. You seem like a nice guy, but some of the things you say...whew! Too much for me :)

Re: Content

My experience in the U.S. has been very different when it comes to the issue of marriage. While I can relate to Bina`s account, I don`t think the issue is approached in the same manner here. But then that`s a whole saga in itself :)

I long gave up on the idea of finding a perfect match for myself, because,I know, I myself am not perfect. For us to think we should find somebody to match our status, looks, education or ``ideal`` is nothing more than naive.

This is not to say that we should short change ourselves, but keep in mind that Knight in the shining armor have long vanished.

I fell in love with a girl on my visit to Pakistan. Though she differs from me on various issues, we have tried to make our union work. There are times that I question whether she`s perfect enough for me or vice versa, but I choose to overlook these thoughts and concentrate more on making our relationship work. Not surprisingly, past six months have so far been the happiest days of my life, and I don`t see why the rest of our lives shouldn`t be the same.

Bottom line? Little imperfections are what make life worth living, for both partners enjoy guiding each other through the maze of life.

I LOVE YOU R

Re: Unforgiven post # 30

My mistake! I apprently misread your post and thus, drew the wrong conclusions. Thanks for clarifying the intent of your posts.

On the other hand, I was hoping to start heated argument and some how tie it in with the article!

Re:

Umair01,

I am not sure, given that what you say is right on your end, if we come from the same Pakistan, here. All my friends around me dated although I never took part in that activity but I know for a fact that you can date in Pakistan.

Re: Unforgiven post # 25

Like I said, I like being noticed, but whether some notices me is another story! :)

As to your re-explication of the terms actus rea and mens rea, being applicable to people within a context of heavan and hell intentions, that is a case of deducio illogica.

These questions are asked without any rancour or bitterness and I am only asking them, because I am merely interested.

Correct me if I am wrong, but are you assuming that I am being a hypocite for wishing to go heavan, but pretending other wise? What if I told you that I have no interest in going to heavan? First of all is there a heavan or hell and realitically if the choice is mine, then why do I have to follow criterias and standards which are not mine? Do we really have choice in going to either heavan or hell? Will you then deny me that choice, based on your own personal perceptions and call me wrong, because I do not follow the majority opinion? In a more critical sense, how do you know what is my true intent and if you are guessing at it, then you are not likely to be right, right?

Irony:

In the US I can date and get to know someone but their aren`t very many Pakistani women around.

In Pakistan I can`t date or get to know someone but pakistani women are everywhere..

umair

I couldn`t agree with you more! It`s pure hell being an unmarried Pakistani girl and the saddest part is that it is the women that make our lives hell rather than the men! They definitely make you feel as if you are subhuman, somehow maybe even incomplete or deformed - I think I can now sympathize with the outcastes of society.

Unfortunately as much as I love my Indo/Pak culture and my people (the good-hearted ones that is) I have gotten to a point now where I have just decided to boycott them because of this reason and this reason alone - I am absolutely sick and tired of answering the same question over and over again - I`m seriously thinking of sticking a sign to my forehead - `NOT MARRIED - WILL SIT IN MY ASSIGNED CORNER - PLEASE STAY OUT OF MY FACE`. Of course that would be harder to do in Pakistan, but here in the US it`s a little easier! Too bad there aren`t any Civil Rights lawyers specializing in `Marriage Harrassment` - boy have I got a case.

The truth is that girls of our generation with progressive parents are caught between two worlds. We are encouraged to get an Ivy League education and have successful careers and yet we are expected to still abide by our traditions and morals of then settling down and marrying a `dhanka musulman bacha`- well my dear the truth is that is an extinct race!

So what do we do in the meantime - go on with life and continue to be amused by these Pakistani women`s petty talk - to be honest these people have been very crucial in further developing my sense of humor - perhaps I should even be grateful to them!

Re: Unforgiven post #21

Like the latin legal maxims; it is mens rea and not actus rea. It is not the intent(guilty mind), but the act(guilty act) which makes you a hypocrite.

As to Heavan or Hell, I thought that was a personal choice; free agency and all that. If I follow everyone to Heavan, since that is the prefered majority opinion, I would, in my opinion, be caving in to peer pressure and I always resist peer pressure, because an egotistical part of me likes to stand out and be noticed!

`` It`s important not to settle for less than someone who respects you,is sincere,has a responsible outlook on life,is loyal and honest. Other qualities such as looks,and wealth can come and go, but those I mentioned above are what help a marriage last through the good times and

the bad times.``

What u say is true Ms Zaidi- but there is a big dichotomy in desi talk and desi action. Invariably men in our culture ( or their mothers) always go after looks, looks and looks, - Similarly amongst women - the appeal has more to do with monetary allure and status in terms of certain proffessional stereotypes.

Regardless of the rhetoric - A girl and her family crave for stability and a boys family for good genes, - of course add the superficiality of the ABCD culture and you get a third dimension.

That my dear is the reason for disillussionment and despair......

Ms. Bina,

I hope it would not be too rude to point out that your view of the whole picture is as misconceived as is your melodramatic narration of American Scuds raining down on Iraqi cities. The fact is that Americans have not developed scuds yet. It was Iraq delploying those scuds...Sorry to point that out Ms. intelligent, accomplished, fun, and adorable. May be it is not the look or the scent - it is that you actually say these things and that makes men crumble. Try a bit modesty in the future.

P.S.: I do like reading your articles. I think you are a very confident person who loves her life. You simply enjoy potraying yourself as a victim and going on a sympathy trip - probably to see what others reactions are and to laugh at them. Am I being presumptuous?

`` It`s important not to settle for less than someone who respects you,is sincere,has a responsible outlook on life,is loyal and honest. Other qualities such as looks,and wealth can come and go, but those I mentioned above are what help a marriage last through the good times and

the bad times.``

What u say is true Ms Zaidi- but there is a big dichotomy in desi talk and desi action. Invariably men in our culture ( or their mothers) always go after looks, looks and looks, - Similarly amongst women - the appeal has more to do with monetary allure and status in terms of certain proffessional stereotypes.

Regardless of the rhetoric - A girl and her family crave for stability and a boys family for good genes, - of course add the superficiality of the ABCD culture and you get a third dimension.

That my dear is the reason for disillussionment and despair......

Re:Jack Handy

``I totally disagree with this one. Just be yourself, many girls try to mask their insecurities by coming across as over-confident ``

There is a distinct difference in being comfortable with who you are - which is what I meant when I mentioned being confident and relaxed, and being over-confident - this is also known as having ``Attitude`` and being fake. I totally disagree with putting on airs and trying to come across like God`s gift to this world.

Fact of the matter is, there are women out there, who are intelligent, humourous, and ``nice`` that are filled with insecurities on the reason why they are still single. These can range from:

``I`m not pretty enough``

``I`m not educated enough``

``I`m too educated``

``All the nice guys are married``

etc, etc.

Because of these insecurities, these women are not acting like themselves. And hence they may not get noticed.

re:Sadaf

In my experience, the majority of marriages are good with the spouses quite happy. There are always horror stories in every family, but we really do have to keep the faith and not be disillusioned by the bad news. It`s important not to settle for less than someone who respects you,is sincere,has a responsible outlook on life,is loyal and honest. Other qualities such as looks,and wealth can come and go, but those I mentioned above are what help a marriage last through the good times and the bad times.

Regards,

Fozia Zaidi

Re: Unforgiven post # 10

Hey you know the old story....have your fun with democratic girls and then marry a nice republican girl with money! Before I marry a nice girl, I am going to have some serious fun. I think that I have broken all the commandments except for ``thou shalt not kill``. Though, I have bended that particular one on a couple of occassions. When it comes to this sphere, I am self confessed hypocrite. So do as I say, but please don`t do what I do! A pair of beer goggles and a dark room and sex is just sex.

Lets just say, if the walls of my fraternity house could speak, I would have been stoned to death a long time ago! I have reservations in Hell and that is where I am going. Heavan is boring with all those vertically challenged little naked blad men playing harp and who wants to lsiten to that for an eternity?

Re: Sadaf (16)

Hey, sister, it`s not an easy question to answer. Marriage is a tough shell to live in. Once the honeymoon is over, all the cute little things that you found charming in him/her during engagement become quite irritable; eg, him drinking beer everyday, her nagging all the time. If the two can come to an understanding that one needs a space of his/her own, that he/she should not be breathing down the other`s neck all the time, and that let he be him and she be her, then, I believe, it works well. However, the unfortunate part is that this husband/wife relationship, just as all other, is a two-way street. That must be established at the beginning, before committing to marry, and understood well by both parties. If not, then it will get pretty hot in that shell. [I don`t know if I agree with you that most marriages are rotten, though. It`s all what two people make of it.]

BTW, about that Mr Right or Miss Right. Forget about it. It`s all bull as soon as the honeymoon is over! Love is only a four-lettered word.

Re:fozia

`` Here in North America, a frequent complaint is that all the ``bad`` guys date then marry a ``gori`` and good guys go back home to find a nice shareef moldable wife. :) ``

Not a moldable but a person with a more mature and flexible approach to life.

`` Girls who are desperate to get married, radiate their insecurities, this is a major turn-off for potential husbands and potential mother-in-laws. :)``

I totally disagree with this one. Just be yourself, many girls try to mask their insecurities by coming across as over-confident

and blah blah blah ... THis is big no no IMHO.

Girls need to come across as affable and sensitive & caring ( and men need to too) - you academic or professional accomplishments or your families accomplishments have little or no bearing on the future realtionship.

There is nothing wrong in being insecure, MOst men are too. MOst instances here people get scared is either with career-centric meglomaniacs, or girls who just dont wanna compromise on anything - It is my life - I wanna marry on my terms. That never happens with either sex. So we spend an eternity waiting for Prince Valiant. And with time choices get fewer & fewer.

I had a very interesting evening, last night. I live in a small town in Canada (Hi Fozia!), and last night all the Pakistani/Bangladeshi students gathered for a regular Eid potluck and some Bhangra. Somehow, we got talking and everyone shared the love-story of their lives (or the lack of one).

People ranged from ultra-conservative Pakis to typical ABCDs, young men in teens to experienced women. The stories ranged from infatuations with the 6-grade teacher, to losing a life-long friend to the ``zalim samaaj``.

Now how often do you do that? Everyone thinks about it. Everyone jokes about it. But you never talk about it openly. Believe me it is not very hard to do. There is something about the need to find Ms./Mr. Right, that it transcends everything else.

What surprised me was how mature, sensible and serious these twenty-something people were. Most people knew what they were looking for in a life-partner. And most of them wanted the same things: understanding, intelligent people with the same values.

So, I have a question. How come most marriages are rotten? Maybe it is just my personal experience, but I know of too many marriages that are pure hell, or tolerable at best.

Please, help a 21 year old sister who is at the verge of becoming a non-believer.

Re:fozia

`` Here in North America, a frequent complaint is that all the ``bad`` guys date then marry a ``gori`` and good guys go back home to find a nice shareef moldable wife. :) ``

Not a moldable but a person with a more mature and flexible approach to life.

`` Girls who are desperate to get married, radiate their insecurities, this is a major turn-off for potential husbands and potential mother-in-laws. :)``

I totally disagree with this one. Just be yourself, many girls try to mask their insecurities by coming across as over-confident

and blah blah blah ... THis is big no no IMHO.

Girls need to come across as affable and sensitive & caring ( and men need to too) - you academic or professional accomplishments or your families accomplishments have little or no bearing on the future realtionship.

There is nothing wrong in being insecure, MOst men are too. MOst instances here people get scared is either with career-centric meglomaniacs, or girls who just dont wanna compromise on anything - It is my life - I wanna marry on my terms. That never happens with either sex. So we spend an eternity waiting for Prince Valiant. And with time choices get fewer & fewer.

Bina,

Great article, it was hilarious. I found it amusing that a complaint of the girls in Karachi is that all the good men have left for Canada, or America. Here in North America, a frequent complaint is that all the ``bad`` guys date then marry a ``gori`` and good guys go back home to find a nice shareef moldable wife. :)

Seriously though, there is a saying that says ``The more you want something, the more it runs away from you``. Girls who are desperate to get married, radiate their insecurities, this is a major turn-off for potential husbands and potential mother-in-laws. :)

I like to compare this to a job interview. Generally speaking, the more someone wants a job,

the more nervous he/she is. Then, come interview time, they are more likely to stay stupid things, and lose the job. On the other hand when they relax, and walk in with a confident attitude, 9 times out of ten they get the job.

Yes, I know relationships are a whole different ball game but there are some valid similarities. :)

Re: RR

Thanks for providing the North American perspective to this problem. I agree that where there aren`t as well-developed networks and as much ``selection``, than it`s important for people to create opportunities. At the same time, the youth (and parents) need to develop some patience. Too often I`ve seen young people at the age of 19/20 say ``there aren`t any cool muslims of the opposite sex around here `` so they start dating non-muslims or go to Pakistan to get hooked up. And like Altaf said this reduces the pool even further.

People need to figure out what they really want in a spouse first and then create opportunities to find such muslims first. And they shouldn`t give up after a few failed attempts, maybe I`m just an optimist, but I really do think people can find who they are looking for, if they just chill out, make an effort to meet like minded muslims, give it time and let their fate (some would say Allah`s will) take of the rest.

Regards,

Fozia Zaidi

Stages in a SIngle desi quest for matrimony.

1. Ammi ke pasand Vs Betay ke pasand

Ami`s pasand - cousin

( bhai/behen/fav relative/ ke beti).

Betay - Anybody else. Pleasssseeee!!!!!

2. Ami`s selection criteria Vs Son`s

selection criterion



- Tall, fair, pretty with a BA in stupidity.

- Kashish mom Kashish and some brains.....

3. Ammi dejected - family members to the rescue.

Mom - Some giris gonna kidnap my son.

CO-dependency vanquished :-)



Relatives: Intelligence you want intelligence

by profession physician, Engineer, MBA

Beta: Independent of profession.

Realtives ( collectively) huh!!!!!

4. Family: This kid is crazy -

gone to US lost his head. Actually wants

to get to know the girl better. Besharam.



Ammi: Whateever you want son you are crossing

30?? koi bhi aachi ladki nahin milaygee.

Son : Finally .....

5. Finds girl gets married. Happy ....

Mom ( lamenting to social friends): I showed

him hoor. He married a langoor.

Stages in a SIngle desi quest for matrimony.

1. Ammi ke pasand Vs Betay ke pasand

Ami`s pasand - cousin

( bhai/behen/fav relative/ ke beti).

Betay - Anybody else. Pleasssseeee!!!!!

2. Ami`s selection criteria Vs Son`s

selection criterion



- Tall, fair, pretty with a BA in stupidity.

- Kashish mom Kashish and some brains.....

3. Ammi dejected - family members to the rescue.

Mom - Some giris gonna kidnap my son.

CO-dependency vanquished :-)



Relatives: Intelligence you want intelligence

by profession physician, Engineer, MBA

Beta: Independent of profession.

Realtives ( collectively) huh!!!!!

4. Family: This kid is crazy -

gone to US lost his head. Actually wants

to get to know the girl better. Besharam.



Ammi: Whateever you want son you are crossing

30?? koi bhi aachi ladki nahin milaygee.

Son : Finally .....

5. Finds girl gets married. Happy ....

Mom ( lamenting to social friends): I showed

him hoor. He married a langoor.

Well written, entertaining article. The problem, as I see it, is more the community pressure to get married and less the personal pressures of being single. Perhaps a hundred years from now (when economic security is taken for granted while air and water are not -- but that`s another story) we may even find a solution to the dilemmas noted here, but for now I can only ask the ladies to grin and bear it.

Quite humerous reflecting imporant message and the attitude of our society. This has become a ritual that girls are asked the reason of not being getting married rather boys. Boys get late for a good reason that is bright and stable future while girls wait for the right solumate and of course criteria of `the right solumate` varies from one to another. Some girls are awaiting for their prince from North America/Europe and some curse the results of CSS exams. Boys also set some criteria and again this varies person to person. Some of them have committed not to get married until Madhuri or Ms. Kapoor (or like them) visit them and some pray everyday that anyone (even widow with a child) from NA gives a chance settle in NA.

The situation is neurotic for parents specially of a girl and I think no one has right to ask this question to any girl but again this has become so common in our society that no one heeds that whether someone is being hurt by their inquisitive nature. My all sympathies with such girls but BB wait a second, be patientce, chill out and think again. Not all men are b--stards!!

A real man is not afraid of a real woman.

I am going to throw a curve ball into this discussion. One of my Indian friends and fraternity brother, after years of dating American girls and cursing them in bars after the break ups, opted for the tradtional route. He has a check list, more like a shopping list and he just wants his mom to find him a nice girl to marry.

Networking and finding someone is not so easy in this Victoria Secert dominated country either. Dating in college was all about sex and so is meeting some in bars, clubs or what ever the local singles meat market might be. Where the hell do you find a good girl these days? I know that my mom has given up on the idea of my getting married in her life time and that is why she started working on my brother. He got married last July.

Personally speaking, I think that my problem is that I have unrealistic expectations. I am not interested in Ms. Right, because I have not seen her since 1985 and that really was an affair to remember! Ms. Right Now was a nice girl, but I have not heard anything from since I told I was only interested in having sex with her. That was last spring. Presently, I am in the words of Shelly, ``like a wolf in the fold``, but that will not last for long. I am thinking about marriage and seeking that significant other, but the distractions are too appealing. Maybe, I should start attending chruch, mosque, temple, or e-mail an order for a mail order bride!

When all is said and done, I will settle for someone who is intelligent, physically attractive, but not necessarily beautiful, has a higher earning potential than I do and does the Lewinsky on demand!

Bina:

Wazifas? Hmmm....

One of the things I dreamt about upon retiring from here is to find or create a `dargah` become its sole `mujawar` and dispense `taaviz` and `wazifas` mainly to retired MIT/Ivy league crowd. Can someone find out if there is an old grave on that hillock/sanitorium on way to defence where reportedly Aga Khan the III was born?

regards

One place to fine your partner is on the various matrimonial sites that have cropped up on the net... everything from Muslim only, to Indo-Pak, to whatever... try the ``you`ve got mail`` route? Anyone experience in this, and how it works out?

After reading this absolutely hilarious writing
on what can be and often is a very serious topic,
one wonders if the situation here in America is
any better?
Great job articulating your concerns. This is
definitely saving material.

Ras

Being in that state - and as a male I can totally relate. After a while one gets labeled as ``too many nakras:`` . But the problem in essence is the same - lack of a social environment where like -minded people can meet. And absolutely no networking connections.

Actually Ras the problem in the US specially for ABCD girls has reached epidemic proportions - they are too liberal and independent for FOB men - and the career oriented ABCD men ( non - flakes or non-womanizing) crowd is a hard catch.

Even in Pakistan = it is a huge problem as I was there during the WInter break. Even ``amreekis`` have acquired a bad reputation for obvious reasons.

Part of the problem is also the self-imposed cultural time constaints and the biological clocks ticking away. Heard in Islamabad as it pertains to women - but applies to men as well.

at 21: - deknay mein kaisa hain - HOw does he look

at 25: - Kya karta hai $$$$$

What`s his profession

at 30: - khayal rakhnay wala hain

- Is he a caring individual

at 35: - Kahan hain

- Where is he???

SO surf the internet some say..... :-) and you may get lucky.

Being in that state - and as a male I can totally relate. After a while one gets labeled as ``too many nakras:`` . But the problem in essence is the same - lack of a social environment where like -minded people can meet. And absolutely no networking connections.

Actually Ras the problem in the US specially for ABCD girls has reached epidemic proportions - they are too liberal and independent for FOB men - and the career oriented ABCD men ( non - flakes or non-womanizing) crowd is a hard catch.

Even in Pakistan = it is a huge problem as I was there during the WInter break. Even ``amreekis`` have acquired a bad reputation for obvious reasons.

Part of the problem is also the self-imposed cultural time constaints and the biological clocks ticking away. Heard in Islamabad as it pertains to women - but applies to men as well.

at 21: - deknay mein kaisa hain - HOw does he look

at 25: - Kya karta hai $$$$$

What`s his profession

at 30: - khayal rakhnay wala hain

- Is he a caring individual

at 35: - Kahan hain

- Where is he???

SO surf the internet some say..... :-) and you may get lucky.

Same problem here in the USA, no different amongst south asians... I aggree with RR it is a cultural problem with few opportunities for social interaction. No wonder more and more folks are expanding their horizons and not restricting themselves to desis, and/or their particular religious backgruonds... of-course as people give up on the idea of getting married to a desi, that further shrinks the pool of eligibles.

I have a mixed reaction to your narrative Bina. On one hand, I`m amused by your sense of humor in dealing with such a loaded issue. On the other hand, I understand the dilemma young people, note it`s not just girls, are facing in finding their soul mates. And it`s not just in Karachi, right here in the good ol` U.S. of A, I know a lot of young people in their mid to late twenties and early thirties, who are educated, good looking and still unmarried. Well, it`s partly because they chose to establish themselves in their careers.

But mosttly, it`s because the entire marriage system in our culture, well if we can call it a system, is flawed. At least for those who`d like to have a say in determining who they should spend the rest of their lives with. Because if you notice, people who have no preferences, i.e. ji ammi or ji abba jaysa aap munasib samjhayn, are usually the ones who get married to whomever quickly and live ``happily`` ever after, well, most of the time.

But if you are educated and have a preference, well then, good luck. In addition, if you are good looking and attractive, and seeking the same, then you are truly doomed. Now the part that gets even trickier is when you would like to have a say, but still are culturally and/or religiously inclined and are still relying on the traditional system of waiting for a ``good`` rishta, in girls` case, or unable to ``find`` a suitable rishta, in the case of guys. This, my friend, is WHY getting M-A-R-R-I-E-D has become similar to climbing Mt.Everest for these young people.

The part about flawed system just means that our social interaction is limited in a very traditional sense. On top of that, if you are liberal enough to get actively involved in this pursuit, you would get a ``reputation`` and scare off any potential contenders.

Most men, even if they consider themselves ``progressive,`` would think that you are gonna be trouble for them, if you are an ``out-going`` woman. And especially once they hear that you actually have an opinion on different issues. And women would percieve you as a flirt, unreliable and untrustworthy for a husband, if you are a guy with a ``reputation.`` Well, men are mostly to be blamed themselves for their ``reputation`` because they do get carried away. So, you are damned if you do and you are damned if you don`t.

So, there is no acceptable social venue where young people may come together and discover what kind of people are out there. Therefore, you gotta determine what kind of a person you are looking for and then involve yourself in activities and places in the community where such people are potentially found. And if there are none, well, then why not start them yourself?

In any event, you must consider this: you have taken a stand, that you will not be pushed into sacrificing the rest of your life, the only one given to you in this world. Being productive does not only mean producing more kids. You can do so much more to make a difference in your own and others` lives that if you look at the bigger picture, the gossips and the sighs of elders actually appear to deserve YOUR sympathy not the other way around.

One correction: Those were Tomahawk cruise missiles and not Scuds. :)

Rehan.

I couldn`t stop laughing. It was funny, witty, all in all very well written.

Where are men in this equation.

I am not sure exactly what you are trying to say in this part of your article but the rest of the article was a great read.